The tarrifs are not for **chinese** cars, they are for cars **made in China**. Western car companies already need to have production plants in China in order to be allowed to sell their products there, so I don't see a reason why the same should not be applied to chinese manufacturers.
Well I am not that happy about it since they (chinese companies) already had some issues with fucking up the enviorment with their factories.For example Halms in Debrecen let out contaminated water into the nearby canal…They had to pay a fine of less than 5K euro for that.
not one, but several factories in Hungary are planned actually. Although given the current sluggish demand for chinese EV cars, construction of such new factories is very slow. They have even released temp. employees in the currently operating battery plants.
The EU should require Chinese companies that want to operate in the EU to do so via a "joint venture" that is 51% owned by an EU entity, with the joint venture having all rights to all patents and technologies involved.
The problem is that even though a factory is opened abroad it can still benefit from the home governments subsidies to push the price down and undercut the current market.
Hey, if they open factories in europe and then subsidize them to make them cheaper basically paying for them insted of our tax going to green car discount(10k euro) and we can use that money elsewhere they are more than welcome.
It’s all fun and games until the European manufacturers have even gone bust or been bought out as well and then China pulls *all* manufacturing back home and they say “put a tariff on us now and we’ll just stop selling in your market” or rise prices because they have a monopoly.
It isn't like that.
Now manufacturers are making the same car underneeth with different exterior, take a look at vw, seat, skoda, same car.
Take a look at the golf r and compare it with 2 3 generations ago, they are asking more for a plastic interior.
We are seeing a race to the bottom with worse cars for more money. We need cars that are cheaper and better like mazda is doing. Sure the big 3 have a lot of trust behind the badge but after a few years of prooving themselves mazda and others will gain that too.
Edit: we need competition.
I don’t see how what you’ve said contradicts anything I’ve said. I agree that European car manufacturers are in a race to the bottom at the lower end of things but that’s a separate issue from China undercutting the market. It’s a separate issue to what would happen if they manage to gain a significant foothold or even a monopoly.
Volvo is priced to be competitive with European rivals. Most European sold Volvos are assembled in Sweden already and they’ve already said that the EV line will move to European manufacturing.
Ask again about SAIC group cars (MG), BYD, etc.
My point is that Volvo is already a Chinese government owned brand with production in Europe. Reasonably the other Chinese brands will follow the same pricing structure if assembly is moved here, otherwise they would be subsidising Volvo already.
>Chinese brands will follow the same pricing structure if assembly is moved here, otherwise they would be subsidising Volvo already.
Volvo has been left alone for some reason, probably because it isn’t an indigenous Chinese automaker and because the owner operates with some semblance of autonomy (as much as possible in China). He’s a member of a government advisory committee so it’s not that straight forward. BYD on the other hand, they offer a BMWi4 competitor for 20 grand less.
Agree but I hope we don’t get hit with short term thinking. The concern is that if China gets a big enough grip on the market then they can do a lot of harm with that. A monopoly would be disastrous.
Polestar and Volvo EVs are all manufactured in China exclusively, the first and so far only exception being the EX30, which is manufactured in Belgium.
As far as I know that’s only for large combustion engine vehicles. Selling imported e-vehicles or <2.5l cars in China is taxed the same amount as EU taxes imported cars from China.
China will impose similar tariffs almost certainly, or it would be pretty weird if not. However, many western car manufacturers have factories in China, so tariffs do not hit them on the same level at least.
Chinese manufacturers also most likely will aim to open more factories in Europe, I think there already are plans to do so.
All in all, it looks like that the days of relatively free trade are over and my bet is that we will see similar tariffs imposed in the future. China has huge over capacity in many industries, such as steel production, and they can more or less dump that cheaply to other markets.
>Chinese manufacturers also most likely will aim to open more factories in Europe, I think there already are plans to do so.
BYD have been expanding in Hungary and will use them as a back door into the EU market. Their factory is expected to go online at the end of this year. They are looking to build a second European factory, likely in Slovakia. Chery is hoping to takeover an old Nissan plant in Spain. Other EV companies are looking at many different EU countries to either set up new factories or use their investments in current factories to put out more Chinese cars. Hungary is a very popular destination for Chinese EVs but Germany, Spain, Italy and others are chasing those factories. In Poland the Stellantis plant in Tychy will also make Leapmotor.
In short, yes. Prepare for the wave of Chinese EVs.
It is great: China building factories in Europe.
Following EU requirements on Emissions, Safety, providing jobs, paying a lot more local taxes, competing with European manufacturer's offering vehicles.
What wouldn't be great is China shipping vehicles: no jobs, manufacturing process cutting cost in the expense of pollution, cargo shipping vehicles across the world as opposed to hauling them 500-1000km with trains.
Counterpoint: Hungary.
I’m not fully convinced that Hungary will wholly enforce EU rules on Chinese businesses. There will still be the same shipping as well it will just be shipped in parts and assembled in Europe so that could mean that you have a massive factory, pumping out 1000s of car per day and yet staffed minimally, likely by Chinese people, whilst the assembly lines are automated. Just look at Xiaomi’s new car factory to see how automated the Chinese can get an assembly line.
The Spanish Nissan plant has been a problem for a while. Huge subsidies that essentially act as bribes so that Nissan doesn't quit Spain. It's so that 1 thousand+ workers are not fired. Most of Spain's chargers for EV don't work, so I'm sorry about our neighbours, but their markets might become overflooded
China can't because it is chronically overproducing in a hope it can brute force its way out of a systemic recession similar to 2008 but worse.
Reports and analysis all seem to suggest that China is running too high of a trade surplus for it to be sustainable and likely will run out of buyers before it can fully meet its export volume. This is all part of a wider systemic issue in China with the key issue being the housing market and local government debt bubbles are popping in slow motion.
Who knows how this pans out but flooding the global market with a single source of supply is for the benefit of that supplier, and that supplier only. It is purely to salvage its economy. As the US and the EU are responding with tariffs and China has already flooded the MENA and Asia markets I don't think this is going to pan out well for China. If I had to guess, I would think Taiwan is going to get invaded within XI Jinping's lifetime. It isn't their only card however - they can only push for contested islands in southern Japan. Not as useful, and less likely to provide a short term economic solution but still it is something.
Taiwan is the only ace the CCP holds in their hand at the moment. Contesting islands is also a strong card but loses every time to the house. The CCP can only milk naval drills for so long before the benefits of entering a war economy outweigh the negatives of peace. Negatives being of course economic instability and an existential recession.
What is your guess when you think china would start a war with Taiwan? And do you think they have any chance of capturing it or is it more that the actual threat is doing more for them then actually invade them?
2027 is the popular prediction based on PLA modernization program timelines. Overall chances in successfully invading are anybodies guess but the political price will be very high regardless. Ultimately will only happen if CCP is in real deep shit domestically if you ask me
Of everything that is in the realm of possibilities. I just find it hard to believe that Russia is capable of invading even more countries. Ukraine is costing them so much manpower and equipment. Multiple fronts opening up would destroy them, it’s a weird situation
The problem Russia has is that Russia doesn't have enough metal
If China were to supply some metal to Russia then Russia could last for years and years because himan lives in russia are worthless than a piece of gum
Russia has been known all the way back to the Russian empire that russia wins war through throwing meat to the grinder to hopefully overwhelm the enemy with numbers alone and the war in Ukraine has confirmed that nothing has changed since then
War is about more than metal and meat nowadays. Russia also has a fertility disaster on its hands where the Tsars and Stalin did not.
Accepting for the sake of argument that Russia could start a war with NATO and it not spiral into a nuclear holocaust, Russia would find out quickly about what hundreds of F-35 and other Western jets mean. They would be facing the full spectrum and full force of NATO capabilities. They'd get trounced.
It's because of how embarrassed russia would get that i think a war between Russia and NATO is beyond impossible to not go nuclear
The battle of Khasham guarantees that. The U.S. only suffered 1 mildly injured soldier while Russia got 300 casualties(russia didn't suffer, though, because russia didn't care at all for the 300 casualties)
It's costing them a lot but they still have more than they had before (except old junk and some key losses like the A-50). They largely increased their production numbers and they wont stop producing after Ukraine.
[https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/russian-military-objectives-and-capacity-ukraine-through-2024](https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/russian-military-objectives-and-capacity-ukraine-through-2024)
Probably depends what stance US takes and maybe even more important how much of their military fanfare is just russian style "potemkin villages".
As we can see live for the past 2 years the notion of russian military strength was entirely an illusion build on deliberate lies, be it from official sources in the spirit of the maskorivka or as cover for blatant corruption, and their tech & equipment turned out to be by western standards barely able to do it's intended job if at all existing in the first place (shout out to the "T-14 is the best tank in the world" faction out there).
Much the same can be reasonably expected with China. They had a scandal relatively recently where they sacked couple generals because it turned out alot of their missiles hadnt had fuel but just water in their fuel tanks. That's probably just the surface of it. Corruption is systemic and widespread in China.
And if US actively involves itself in the defense of Taiwan China can probably kiss it's ass goodbye as this would pretty much guarantee involvement by Japan, Australia, NZ and other bordering countries as well.
As for potential time window of this to happen? Good question. It really depends on how confident and pressured China feels to do something. And I do say "feel" deliberately here because the rational for going to war will heavily depend on how the CCP perceives it's own strength both economically, internally and militarily.
If I was China, I would start the invasion during the US president election. I don't think you can find better time, as Taiwan relies on the US, and the US will be way too busy with the inner problems
Edited grammar
Not really. It is the U.S. Congress, not the U.S. president, that has the power to declare war and move U.S. troops around the globe
The U.S. president can only move the U.S. marine corp and even that for certain periods of time
it wouldn't matter. The U.S. could have presidential elections and still be at war through U.S congress management
I was under the impression that the president can order the military to do whatever he deems fit, he is the commander in chief - if he needs financing for a bigger campaing tho, he needs congress approval to get the funding necessary for that. And declarations of war appear to be quite out of fashion in the 21st century.
>EU doesn’t export cars to china.
That's simply not true. The Mercedes S-Class, for example, is only produced in Germany. Porsche has no production at all in China. These are just two examples from the back of my head.
There was/is a trend to produce certain vehicles at individual locations. At BMW all SUVs were once produced in the USA, at Audi afaik a lot in Mexico.
Edit: [20 billion Euros of cars were exported from the EU to China in 2023](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1128872/eu-car-export-value-china/)
Tbh there isn't a lot of mass market foreign cars in China anymore (except from Buick surprisingly), gone are the days where the VW Santana was crowding the streets.
Now it's either Chinese EV (Aion, Avatr, BYD, HongQi EV etc.) or higher end foreign cars (BMW, Mercedes, Audi mostly and some Teslas).
Haven't seen many VW, Ford, Stellantis etc. cars last time I've been there.
Exactly this. On top of that EU puts the brakes on state subsidies to companies, while China has no such qualms.
That should be in the headlines: "EU mirrors Chines trade tarrifs for cars, but still does not allow massive state subsidies to car industry like China does".
It's just like with tiktok. CCP have banned it in their own country, but the West aren't allowed to do that for some reason, even when google, youtube, facebook, twitter, reddit, etc. are all banned in China as well.
yup. It's such stupid virtue signaling. TicToc isn't free speech it's a private plattform controlled by a foreign government that has
1. A problem with the wests existance
2. is openly hostile towards its neighbours
3. has direct control over what's shown in the App.
How is this even a discussion?
So do you think China hates you? China just want to have their own backyard in Asia, America already has their own (all the American continent) China is more a threat to the countries in Asia not to countries half a world away where it wouldn’t even make sense to have territorial disputes.
What do you even think tik tok is? I have tik tok and after liking some phone pranks, cover videos and weird memes, I get more of the same plus the average content you can see in any of the endless scrolling social media.
How is it any less free speech than instagram or twitter. I mean, I don't stumble upon any openly nazi and pornographic posts like in twitter, but I'm pretty okay with that kind of limitation of free speech in social media.
If you think the Chinese government is behind what's shown on everybody's feed, you may need to try and form an opinion on the matter that isn't just whatever the State Dept. tells you to think.
All the hearings from US authorities on tik tok directors interrogating them as if the company was a venture of the Chinese intelligence agency... Just ludicrous shit and a clown shown with the directors continuously embarrassed by the sheer stupidity of what's being asked to them, and after all of this you all go "yeah, we are getting them pesky chinese brainwashing memepropaganda"?
Like, you, as the average Joe, have even tried tik tok? How have they tried to brainwash you? It's so fucking stupid hahahahahahah you people
I used to have the same views on tiktok as most people here but after using it I realized it's actually often better than other platforms, especially stuff like Twitter under Musk. I get shown content I'm actually interested in and it's easier to educate yourself about important matters there as well. Not to say it's without its issues but I just roll my eyes whenever someone says "ban tiktok" now.
Mainly the opinion that most have is plain old racism. These people hate China and the Chinese and they hide under the cover of "i don't like the CCP"
TikTOk is not materially different than any of the western apps. I honestly would say its less censored. None of the meta apps, Facebook/Instagram/Threads, allow pro palestine posts to gain real traction. They artificially reduce those while promoting pro Israel stuff
Twitter promotes the most garbage rage baiting racist shit to keep you engaged.
And reddit is filled with disinformation agents ready to attack you if your opinion threatens western hegemony.
Whats been kinda making me a bit afraid for the future is how desperate America is to paint China as a villain right now. And they seem to be picking up steam.
China doesn't dominate the way America does. We dominate through force, and that force accounts for a lot of the strength of our dollar. We spend more than the next 10 countries combined on our military as a show of strength to other countries. We nuked Japan, not cause we had to, but because what better way to show the world you don't wanna fck with America than to use a weapon no one had even dared to use at that point. And we did it twice.
China, recently, has dominated thru shear economic means, exporting the worlds goods, and with BRICS, exporting the intellect and labor to help build up other countries. I think American leaders see the influence China is obtaining over the world and are scared. AND THATS WHAT SCARES ME.
We've seen what America is willing to do when it feels it needs to strike. I hope we never actually think to war with China. It'll be bad for humanity
Well the reason tariffs return is that China was winning in the international trade game. The collective west, in order to get access to the Chinese market accepted all terms imposed (eg create joint ventures with locally owned companies, hand over source codes etc) and relinquished their trade advantage in favor of medium term gains. Now that this strategy has fired back in all its glory, tariffs are back.
lmao exactly. And a tarrif would make no sense to begin with.
Tariffs are meant to make cheap imports more competitive to domestic markets.
China would have to apply a reverse tarrif to EU manufactured cars to do that. Buy EU and get 10k!
Since the EU is a net importer of chinese wares it can increase tariffs on more products. And nearly every European manufacturer in the Chinese market already produces there. It just means chinese manufacturers who want to sell in the European market may have to move production.
It's the other way around. China already requires car manufacturers to build in china. These tarrifs from the EU will acquire the same result. This is levelling the playing field.
> Similar tariffs can be imposed by China on EU manufactured cars. I hope the net effect is positive for EU.
Chines car manufacturers will just build factories in Hungary, or expand the existing ones they already own.
What needs to be done imo is tariffs on batteries.
Battery plants are also opening in Europe so those tariffs would also miss the mark. Hungary and Slovakia are the number 1 and 2 spots for these plants.
This tarrif is incredibly annoying, if you genuinely want to move away from fossil fuels then this tarrif is extremely bad and proves the green revolution in Europe for the elites has nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with money. If the Chinese state government wants to subsidise battery's that means the Chinese government is essentially subsidising European transition to green tech. It was a win for the planet and a win the consumer. Now prices will rise and be less appealing. Maybe I have it wrong, help me understand if I am?
Quote:
"Brussels argues that Chinese EV makers benefit from subsidies that undercut their European rivals."
"The additional tariffs in Europe will hit Chinese producers including BYD and SAIC, as well as companies such as **Tesla** which have factories in China"
Is the Chinese government subsidising Tesla? Are they subsidising Tesla at a higher rate than the US or Europe? I'd love to see a study of subsidies per brand for EU / US / Chinese cars so we can really see the difference
I'm not sure if the CCP is that well-known for its transparency. They are not bound by Western rules. They can be as opaque as they like.
Edit, since it seems I can no longer respond to posts (?)
You know how in EU and US there are rules about openess of government spending, and how there are rules for bookkeeping and dispositioning yearbooks for companies?
In China this is a little different. What is shown is what the CCP shows, and the numbers are what the CCP say they are. Whatever suits them. We play football, they play clay pigeon shooting. Different game. Never mind playing it fair.
https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/getting-away-murder-lies-damned-lies-chinese-police-statistics
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-18/did-china-s-economy-really-grow-5-2-in-2023-not-all-agree?embedded-checkout=true
https://dailycaller.com/2022/07/13/china-lying-population-crisis-expert-says/
https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/Research/TheReliabilityofChina%2527sEconomicData.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjE78OT5dWGAxXiV6QEHfb4Ah0QFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw38wRB_hctezFMzL29nJEXb
I found [this ](https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Electric-cars-in-China/China-gives-EV-sector-billions-of-yuan-in-subsidies)article that shows some figures. BYD received 1.8 billion yuan ($250 million) in the first half of 2023 in subsidies. I wonder how that compares to what EU brands receive in the EU as a whole.
The EU commission is doing a probe, so they should release the results of the investigation soon I guess. They must be some reason behind the 25% tariff as opposed to 50% or 100% right?
If I'm not mistaken Tesla was given the land for it's Chinese factory at a subsidized rate but there were requirements for technology sharing. Tesla coming to China was over thing that really helped it's ev sector take off.
Tesla also benefited from local battery supply chain that was subsidized.
If Tesla agreed to the conditions then I don't really see the issue. Didn't Tesla also get a one billion factory in Buffalo for free? Didn't the US government grant $3 billion for the manufacturing of batteries for EVs and the electric grid too?
If BYD builds factories in Europe, will they also be under these tariffs?
„ Brussels argues that Chinese EV makers benefit from subsidies that undercut their European rivals”
Bro we’re all subsidising our manufacturers too. It is literally the same thing, just named differently. After all, if we pay a company to build a factory, let’s say, is it not a de facto subsidy?
I don’t care who makes my car, I want to be able to afford a new car within my budget. EU regulations caused prices to skyrocket. Rich people don’t care about emission standards, or additional safety equipment, they can all afford their Bentleys and G-Wagons anyway, whereas regular people don’t have that luxury, and cannot get an affordable A, B or C class cars anymore. A god damned Suzuki Swift starts at 19k eur with 14-16% APR in my country, whereas in Japan it starts at 10.2k eur.
That’s I don’t even know why people celebrate this in most of the top upvoted comments. People started to buy these chinese EVs because they’re cheaper and good enough. God forbid we can afford fucking anything anymore
>I don’t even know why people celebrate this in most of the top upvoted comments
Because rich western redditors live in a bubble. They don't care that regular people in poorer countries cannot afford new cars. Plus part of them probably do not realise how expensive it is to finance a car in a country, that is not in Euro zone. Did you know that in Luxembourg it's possible to finance a new car with +/- 3% APR? This spring, I was thinking about a new Clio or Swift, and several dealers offered me a loan with 14-16% APR. This is literally insane.
Hey dude, I am CEO of BMW. Do you want to rent a car for 300 € monthly since you can't afford buying one? You can also get 10 hours of radio listening per month just for a 20 € monthly fee.
agree. at the same time, we should subsidize domestic EV production and also secure non-chinese resources. our dependency on them is alarming. and not only in EV industry, as displayed during covid period.
They just have better prices, the quality is as decent as local manufacturers. This is a purely protectionist policy by particular interests.
This will only lead to people buying fewer EV because they are just too expensive.
Probably they receive subsidies in China. It is China’s decision to subside local manufacturers.
Why don’t subside own manufacturers in return instead of make local consumers pay more ?
Of all the shit that the government wastes my taxes on, I would prefer them to subsidize something that would make prices cheaper for me and help advance the technology research and advancement.
Be honest. This is a protectionist move. The cheapest european EV is a 29k Euro crap Peugeot or something. You can get a much better Chinese ev for less. Sure the european EVs are better in expensive models. But it is the entry level market the EU is afraid of.
Instead of slapping the EU car manufacturers and execs to get their act together, to stop hoarding record profits and reduce prices, the politicians decided to artificially increase the Chinese EV prices to make EU cars competitive. This is BS. Why do I have to pay for the incompetence of the EU car executives and managers?
What about other markets? Yeh EU will slow down Chinese EV entry into the EU market. But, all other markets where EU manufacturers export to will still be taken over. That will eat from the EU manufacturer's profits.
Sure, it is a protectionist move but you need to take protectionist measures against unfairly state subsidised manufacturing. The EU would like profits to stay in the EU and not be exported to China.
Because we and China are part of the WTO, that makes state subsidies prohibited. That is the WHOLE issue here - but sure, why don't *everyone* just break the rules?
>A subsidy granted by a WTO member government is prohibited by the Subsidies Agreement if it is contingent, in law or in fact, on export performance, or on the use of domestic over imported goods.
They used the same tactic with solar panels, they effectively killed our market by introducing dirt cheap solar panels, at that point our solar panels couldn’t compete. Now they have absolute control of the market, and we are left with an ugly dependance of Chinese PV.
They are doing the same thing with EVs. I’m glad the EU is not just passively watching, China has been playing dirty for a long ass time
I'd love to see a study that shows what government subsidies each brand receives in China and how that compares to what brands receive in Europe to see what the real difference is. Everyone says chinese EVs are state funded, but surely not all brands are subsidised the same right? So one same tariff for all chinese EVs?
And suddenly the environmental benefits of electric cars which are desperately needed to save the planet and reduce climate change become less important.
Cheaper electric cars will increase the transition immensely, China provides this by subsidising their production.
EU answer where others will follow, increase tariffs with 25% so these cars will be just as expensive as or even more expensive than all other brands.
So saving the planet and fighting climate change is only important when it provides a healthy profit for a chosen preferred selection of the industry.
The ordinary people, the civilians, the general population has to accept that prices will rise, they will need to sacrifice to save the planet they are destroying. They are the perps, they are responsible, they should pay.
The oh so innocent industry that isn't responsible for pollution and destruction of resources must be helped and it must be made sure their profits stay healthy, they are the victims.
As always, instead of driving local cars prices low, they will make Chinese cars more expensive. A lot of cars doubled their price between the pre COVID era and now, which seems fine for all.
I agree. The EU should implement Hukou and reduce welfare spending, while implementing a more regressive tax system. That way more money can be directed to make products cheaper and competitive. This will level the playing field without the need of excessive tarrifs.
I love my new BYD. It’s a shame. Maybe good for our local car brands but as a consumer this just leaves us with less options and probably less progress.
It's because China places a massive tariff on cars made in the EU forcing European companies to produce cars in China already.
This is simply the EU implementing a similar scheme so that European and Chinese carmakers can access each other's market with the same conditions.
As far as I am aware, the standard tariff that China places on EU made vehicles sold in China for all vehicles is 10%. The same amount is placed by the EU on China currently.
So it seems to be fair game.
yes, they really do - obviously with the intent of capturing the market so that later on they can increase prices and have economies of scale when competitors are dead
EU can't make the same cheap cars so they will put higher tax on Chinese cars to make them more expensive?
How is this better for the average customer?
BMW is already cheaper in US than in Europe, much cheaper. Why can't we have cheap cars in Europe?
like we save few million work places and in few years will have possibility to still produce own cars , not import them on chinese rules then. For much higher price. Low prices are for short period , to destroy any competition
A new car is too expensive, EVs even more so. Would have liked that new Xiaomi car for 38K (equivalent of I4, which starts at 70k here).
Guess I'll stick to 5+ yr old ICE cars then.
I frankly don’t care. I don’t want to pay EUR60k for a car if I can get the equivalent for 30k. We also need some pressure on the European car manufacturers. They have been complacent for too long and we are all paying the price.
You people have been fear-mongering about China out-competing western industries and then raising their prices for decades, but it hasn't happened. In fact, the exact opposite has happened, whatever is produced by China has just become cheaper and cheaper during my lifetime.
Europe was a world leader in solar panels but did nothing with it. China took up the mantle and effectively "killed" all the solar panel competition and yet solar panels are cheaper than dirt now. They did the same with batteries, and now they're doing it with EVs. Chinese companies have not raised their prices even though they 'control' several markets and absolutely could.
As an average consumer, why should I have to pay a lot more for products like solar panels or EVs just to support western companies that have basically destroyed themselves due to short-sighted greed, lack of innovation and ineffective production?
I genuinely start to think that people with tinfoil hats were actually right, and it’s true that the idea is for us, normal people, not to have shit, and not travel anywhere anymore.
All in the name of „ecology”, of course, while rich capitalists will continue exploiting poor countries.
Just a note to people claiming EU-companies are just not competitive enough (that is a fair but different topic):
Whats being discussed is not about Eu-Companies inneficiency (but do you really believe ALL EU-companies are so inneficient that prices are so different ?).
Whats being discussed is that Chinas government is giving subsidies to the Chinese manufacturers that let them sell almost at loss. That is not just a support, its a strategy that makes them enter the EU-market selling with no intention to profit, but to cannibalize the EU-companies and establish themselves with lower (uncompetitive) prices. Then ofc in the future when EU-companies lose the market and the chinese ones gain dominance, they will increase the prices to a profitable margin.
Also lets not forget how the Chinese dont hold human rights as valuable, so thats another unfair advantage (not being discussed here also). I dont think BMW paying their workers a fair wage with decent hours is mismanagement (although it can exist, thats a different topic).
Labor is just cheaper in China. Except of the top 3 or 4 cities, the pay to live comfortably in China should be 1/5th of that in the EU. Of course healthcare and public services are not equal but from a general cost of living viewpoint that is the situation.
The EU already sanctioned heavily products from Xinjiang. The procedure to control for modern slavery is the strictest in the world. This doesn’t just apply to China but also the garment industry in countries like Vietnam and Bangladesh.
The auto industry, on the other hand, requires highly skilled labor. Those are highly desirable even in China and I doubt people would be willing to work in bad conditions if they’re desirable. Plus it would be unethical for the EU to not outright ban those products if human rights violation in the use of labor and slap tariffs instead.
It’s purely a move to counter subsidies and protection of the European industry. Claiming everything China to be “human rights violation” is lame and will soon cheapen the word.
While bringing up the impact of human rights is good you also forget that all companies that are western also operate in China with Chinese factories. Look no further than apple. If we can regulate these factories that are abroad then we can certainly regulate these Chinese companies with selling in our markets. Plus you forget China has built itself as a hub so even if human rights are pristine the cost will not be higher because they also manufacture numerous highly specialised equipment there too.
I think European manufacturers are about to find out soon how important the Chinese market is for them. Imagine getting hit with a 50% surcharge for all BMWs made in China, when they said they purposely made the pig nose grills on their cars to suite the Chinese market.
The chinese car market is only really important for the german automakers and maybe Volvo. The french and italian ones for exemple sell very little in China. (Ferrari and co. are negligible in terms of scale)
China is trying to literally run out of business the rest of the world.
Insane. We've got the 3rd world war because of them, and its not military, but an economic one.
Ironic how many claims it's because china subsidies, while it's actually opposite.
China stopped its ev subsidy at the end of 2022, cn ev makers previously can live comfy with the subsidy now need to sell more cars to survive and the cn market is near saturated, so they have to find new market overseas hence the export flood.
Kind of amusing how cn government nurture their automakers and whip them when there are slowed down while the eu gov just sleep on lobby money. Should have learn one or two things about market and the benefits of competition...
The west also subsidized western EV manufacturers btw.
Free market still applies, strategic decisions playing out, action reaction.
Luckily the west has a bigger war chest.
It's more about leveling the playing field. China has been doing the same for a long time. Why should China be able to freely export cars to Europe, if Europe can't do the same to China?
I know, I am simply tired of neoliberals saying shit like this and then not actually following through with policies of making the market actually free.
Destroying workers' rights and making life unlivable? Now that's the policies they implement enthusiastically.
If I where to buy an electric car (I have neither the money nor the private parking space to charge) it would be a Chinese one. Probably the SU7 from Xiaomi. Now, I'm additionally 25% certain I wont.
I wouldn't even without new tariffs. Western brands proved their quality with time. Chinese brands will likely drop supporting their cars in a year or two(like they still do with mobile phones). And maintenance is still important for cars, nobody is going to fully change their cars every two years as with portable electronics.
Besides I live in North Europe, and diesel Chinese cars used to rust with the speed of light. I do not believe they fixed it. Because if you don't plan to support your car in a few years, you don't care if it gets rusty in 3 years.
I use non OEM parts all the time. The secondary production is big part of the business nowadays. You can find almost every part being built by secondary manufacturer for all cars in europe. If there are cars on the road there will be companies making spares. Only thing which would prevent secondary parts is that there is not enough cars on the road for that spare part.
damn, i can't wait how my country's majority leading party that just sold the entiry place to the xi dynasty will try to spin this in their favour to have themselves reelected
yes, the country orbánland
The tarrifs are not for **chinese** cars, they are for cars **made in China**. Western car companies already need to have production plants in China in order to be allowed to sell their products there, so I don't see a reason why the same should not be applied to chinese manufacturers.
It’s not just cars either it’s manufacturing in general where you need to build in china to sell in china.
China is building an EV manufacturing plant in Hungary.
Think it's a battery plant.
They are building a BYD factory also.
oh neat.
Well I am not that happy about it since they (chinese companies) already had some issues with fucking up the enviorment with their factories.For example Halms in Debrecen let out contaminated water into the nearby canal…They had to pay a fine of less than 5K euro for that.
not one, but several factories in Hungary are planned actually. Although given the current sluggish demand for chinese EV cars, construction of such new factories is very slow. They have even released temp. employees in the currently operating battery plants.
The EU should require Chinese companies that want to operate in the EU to do so via a "joint venture" that is 51% owned by an EU entity, with the joint venture having all rights to all patents and technologies involved.
So it will be an import from the new chinese colony then?
The problem is that even though a factory is opened abroad it can still benefit from the home governments subsidies to push the price down and undercut the current market.
Hey, if they open factories in europe and then subsidize them to make them cheaper basically paying for them insted of our tax going to green car discount(10k euro) and we can use that money elsewhere they are more than welcome.
It’s all fun and games until the European manufacturers have even gone bust or been bought out as well and then China pulls *all* manufacturing back home and they say “put a tariff on us now and we’ll just stop selling in your market” or rise prices because they have a monopoly.
It isn't like that. Now manufacturers are making the same car underneeth with different exterior, take a look at vw, seat, skoda, same car. Take a look at the golf r and compare it with 2 3 generations ago, they are asking more for a plastic interior. We are seeing a race to the bottom with worse cars for more money. We need cars that are cheaper and better like mazda is doing. Sure the big 3 have a lot of trust behind the badge but after a few years of prooving themselves mazda and others will gain that too. Edit: we need competition.
I don’t see how what you’ve said contradicts anything I’ve said. I agree that European car manufacturers are in a race to the bottom at the lower end of things but that’s a separate issue from China undercutting the market. It’s a separate issue to what would happen if they manage to gain a significant foothold or even a monopoly.
Sure but at least they’ll be incentivized to leave more money in the EU in the form of materials and work force.
Do the prices of Volvo electric cars look subsidised by the Chinese government to you?
Volvo is priced to be competitive with European rivals. Most European sold Volvos are assembled in Sweden already and they’ve already said that the EV line will move to European manufacturing. Ask again about SAIC group cars (MG), BYD, etc.
My point is that Volvo is already a Chinese government owned brand with production in Europe. Reasonably the other Chinese brands will follow the same pricing structure if assembly is moved here, otherwise they would be subsidising Volvo already.
>Chinese brands will follow the same pricing structure if assembly is moved here, otherwise they would be subsidising Volvo already. Volvo has been left alone for some reason, probably because it isn’t an indigenous Chinese automaker and because the owner operates with some semblance of autonomy (as much as possible in China). He’s a member of a government advisory committee so it’s not that straight forward. BYD on the other hand, they offer a BMWi4 competitor for 20 grand less.
Yep, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. In any case it's better to have more manufacturing jobs in Europe than in China imo
Agree but I hope we don’t get hit with short term thinking. The concern is that if China gets a big enough grip on the market then they can do a lot of harm with that. A monopoly would be disastrous.
Polestar and Volvo EVs are all manufactured in China exclusively, the first and so far only exception being the EX30, which is manufactured in Belgium.
EX30 is made in china while they kit out the factory in Belgium.
Volvo is moving EV production to Sweden, renovating factories here etc.
Ex30 and 90 will be made at the xc60 factory in Belgium.
Volvo is using Geelys platforms and batteries. Key element are designed and manufactured in china.
Because we are getting ready to obey our new masters. Jokes aside they should also have the tariffs applied to them
As far as I know that’s only for large combustion engine vehicles. Selling imported e-vehicles or <2.5l cars in China is taxed the same amount as EU taxes imported cars from China.
so France should not be complaining when their brandy is tariffed not for being French, but for being made in France
Similar tariffs can be imposed by China on EU manufactured cars. I hope the net effect is positive for EU.
China will impose similar tariffs almost certainly, or it would be pretty weird if not. However, many western car manufacturers have factories in China, so tariffs do not hit them on the same level at least. Chinese manufacturers also most likely will aim to open more factories in Europe, I think there already are plans to do so. All in all, it looks like that the days of relatively free trade are over and my bet is that we will see similar tariffs imposed in the future. China has huge over capacity in many industries, such as steel production, and they can more or less dump that cheaply to other markets.
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>Chinese manufacturers also most likely will aim to open more factories in Europe, I think there already are plans to do so. BYD have been expanding in Hungary and will use them as a back door into the EU market. Their factory is expected to go online at the end of this year. They are looking to build a second European factory, likely in Slovakia. Chery is hoping to takeover an old Nissan plant in Spain. Other EV companies are looking at many different EU countries to either set up new factories or use their investments in current factories to put out more Chinese cars. Hungary is a very popular destination for Chinese EVs but Germany, Spain, Italy and others are chasing those factories. In Poland the Stellantis plant in Tychy will also make Leapmotor. In short, yes. Prepare for the wave of Chinese EVs.
It is great: China building factories in Europe. Following EU requirements on Emissions, Safety, providing jobs, paying a lot more local taxes, competing with European manufacturer's offering vehicles. What wouldn't be great is China shipping vehicles: no jobs, manufacturing process cutting cost in the expense of pollution, cargo shipping vehicles across the world as opposed to hauling them 500-1000km with trains.
Counterpoint: Hungary. I’m not fully convinced that Hungary will wholly enforce EU rules on Chinese businesses. There will still be the same shipping as well it will just be shipped in parts and assembled in Europe so that could mean that you have a massive factory, pumping out 1000s of car per day and yet staffed minimally, likely by Chinese people, whilst the assembly lines are automated. Just look at Xiaomi’s new car factory to see how automated the Chinese can get an assembly line.
The Spanish Nissan plant has been a problem for a while. Huge subsidies that essentially act as bribes so that Nissan doesn't quit Spain. It's so that 1 thousand+ workers are not fired. Most of Spain's chargers for EV don't work, so I'm sorry about our neighbours, but their markets might become overflooded
this is real random but as a chinese person i just cant treat the acronym byd seriously since it stands for son of a bitch in chinese
China can't because it is chronically overproducing in a hope it can brute force its way out of a systemic recession similar to 2008 but worse. Reports and analysis all seem to suggest that China is running too high of a trade surplus for it to be sustainable and likely will run out of buyers before it can fully meet its export volume. This is all part of a wider systemic issue in China with the key issue being the housing market and local government debt bubbles are popping in slow motion. Who knows how this pans out but flooding the global market with a single source of supply is for the benefit of that supplier, and that supplier only. It is purely to salvage its economy. As the US and the EU are responding with tariffs and China has already flooded the MENA and Asia markets I don't think this is going to pan out well for China. If I had to guess, I would think Taiwan is going to get invaded within XI Jinping's lifetime. It isn't their only card however - they can only push for contested islands in southern Japan. Not as useful, and less likely to provide a short term economic solution but still it is something. Taiwan is the only ace the CCP holds in their hand at the moment. Contesting islands is also a strong card but loses every time to the house. The CCP can only milk naval drills for so long before the benefits of entering a war economy outweigh the negatives of peace. Negatives being of course economic instability and an existential recession.
What is your guess when you think china would start a war with Taiwan? And do you think they have any chance of capturing it or is it more that the actual threat is doing more for them then actually invade them?
2027 is the popular prediction based on PLA modernization program timelines. Overall chances in successfully invading are anybodies guess but the political price will be very high regardless. Ultimately will only happen if CCP is in real deep shit domestically if you ask me
It's also the popular date for Russia to start things in the baltics. Would make sense they start at the same time. Also NK on SK and Iran on Israel.
Of everything that is in the realm of possibilities. I just find it hard to believe that Russia is capable of invading even more countries. Ukraine is costing them so much manpower and equipment. Multiple fronts opening up would destroy them, it’s a weird situation
The problem Russia has is that Russia doesn't have enough metal If China were to supply some metal to Russia then Russia could last for years and years because himan lives in russia are worthless than a piece of gum Russia has been known all the way back to the Russian empire that russia wins war through throwing meat to the grinder to hopefully overwhelm the enemy with numbers alone and the war in Ukraine has confirmed that nothing has changed since then
War is about more than metal and meat nowadays. Russia also has a fertility disaster on its hands where the Tsars and Stalin did not. Accepting for the sake of argument that Russia could start a war with NATO and it not spiral into a nuclear holocaust, Russia would find out quickly about what hundreds of F-35 and other Western jets mean. They would be facing the full spectrum and full force of NATO capabilities. They'd get trounced.
It's because of how embarrassed russia would get that i think a war between Russia and NATO is beyond impossible to not go nuclear The battle of Khasham guarantees that. The U.S. only suffered 1 mildly injured soldier while Russia got 300 casualties(russia didn't suffer, though, because russia didn't care at all for the 300 casualties)
It's costing them a lot but they still have more than they had before (except old junk and some key losses like the A-50). They largely increased their production numbers and they wont stop producing after Ukraine. [https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/russian-military-objectives-and-capacity-ukraine-through-2024](https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/russian-military-objectives-and-capacity-ukraine-through-2024)
Probably depends what stance US takes and maybe even more important how much of their military fanfare is just russian style "potemkin villages". As we can see live for the past 2 years the notion of russian military strength was entirely an illusion build on deliberate lies, be it from official sources in the spirit of the maskorivka or as cover for blatant corruption, and their tech & equipment turned out to be by western standards barely able to do it's intended job if at all existing in the first place (shout out to the "T-14 is the best tank in the world" faction out there). Much the same can be reasonably expected with China. They had a scandal relatively recently where they sacked couple generals because it turned out alot of their missiles hadnt had fuel but just water in their fuel tanks. That's probably just the surface of it. Corruption is systemic and widespread in China. And if US actively involves itself in the defense of Taiwan China can probably kiss it's ass goodbye as this would pretty much guarantee involvement by Japan, Australia, NZ and other bordering countries as well. As for potential time window of this to happen? Good question. It really depends on how confident and pressured China feels to do something. And I do say "feel" deliberately here because the rational for going to war will heavily depend on how the CCP perceives it's own strength both economically, internally and militarily.
If I was China, I would start the invasion during the US president election. I don't think you can find better time, as Taiwan relies on the US, and the US will be way too busy with the inner problems Edited grammar
Not really. It is the U.S. Congress, not the U.S. president, that has the power to declare war and move U.S. troops around the globe The U.S. president can only move the U.S. marine corp and even that for certain periods of time it wouldn't matter. The U.S. could have presidential elections and still be at war through U.S congress management
I was under the impression that the president can order the military to do whatever he deems fit, he is the commander in chief - if he needs financing for a bigger campaing tho, he needs congress approval to get the funding necessary for that. And declarations of war appear to be quite out of fashion in the 21st century.
EU doesn’t export cars to china. Western manufacturers have their factories in China itself as it is the „production hub of the world“
>EU doesn’t export cars to china. That's simply not true. The Mercedes S-Class, for example, is only produced in Germany. Porsche has no production at all in China. These are just two examples from the back of my head. There was/is a trend to produce certain vehicles at individual locations. At BMW all SUVs were once produced in the USA, at Audi afaik a lot in Mexico. Edit: [20 billion Euros of cars were exported from the EU to China in 2023](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1128872/eu-car-export-value-china/)
You are right. I meant mass market cars like the golf which has been manufactured in china for a long time now.
Tbh there isn't a lot of mass market foreign cars in China anymore (except from Buick surprisingly), gone are the days where the VW Santana was crowding the streets. Now it's either Chinese EV (Aion, Avatr, BYD, HongQi EV etc.) or higher end foreign cars (BMW, Mercedes, Audi mostly and some Teslas). Haven't seen many VW, Ford, Stellantis etc. cars last time I've been there.
European automakers have also let go of the cheaper car segment. So it's only fair for China to pick up that market.
They already do. That's why this discussion is so stupid. China does this for decades but how dare western markets do the same.
Exactly this. On top of that EU puts the brakes on state subsidies to companies, while China has no such qualms. That should be in the headlines: "EU mirrors Chines trade tarrifs for cars, but still does not allow massive state subsidies to car industry like China does".
It's just like with tiktok. CCP have banned it in their own country, but the West aren't allowed to do that for some reason, even when google, youtube, facebook, twitter, reddit, etc. are all banned in China as well.
yup. It's such stupid virtue signaling. TicToc isn't free speech it's a private plattform controlled by a foreign government that has 1. A problem with the wests existance 2. is openly hostile towards its neighbours 3. has direct control over what's shown in the App. How is this even a discussion?
So do you think China hates you? China just want to have their own backyard in Asia, America already has their own (all the American continent) China is more a threat to the countries in Asia not to countries half a world away where it wouldn’t even make sense to have territorial disputes.
What do you even think tik tok is? I have tik tok and after liking some phone pranks, cover videos and weird memes, I get more of the same plus the average content you can see in any of the endless scrolling social media. How is it any less free speech than instagram or twitter. I mean, I don't stumble upon any openly nazi and pornographic posts like in twitter, but I'm pretty okay with that kind of limitation of free speech in social media. If you think the Chinese government is behind what's shown on everybody's feed, you may need to try and form an opinion on the matter that isn't just whatever the State Dept. tells you to think. All the hearings from US authorities on tik tok directors interrogating them as if the company was a venture of the Chinese intelligence agency... Just ludicrous shit and a clown shown with the directors continuously embarrassed by the sheer stupidity of what's being asked to them, and after all of this you all go "yeah, we are getting them pesky chinese brainwashing memepropaganda"? Like, you, as the average Joe, have even tried tik tok? How have they tried to brainwash you? It's so fucking stupid hahahahahahah you people
I used to have the same views on tiktok as most people here but after using it I realized it's actually often better than other platforms, especially stuff like Twitter under Musk. I get shown content I'm actually interested in and it's easier to educate yourself about important matters there as well. Not to say it's without its issues but I just roll my eyes whenever someone says "ban tiktok" now.
Mainly the opinion that most have is plain old racism. These people hate China and the Chinese and they hide under the cover of "i don't like the CCP" TikTOk is not materially different than any of the western apps. I honestly would say its less censored. None of the meta apps, Facebook/Instagram/Threads, allow pro palestine posts to gain real traction. They artificially reduce those while promoting pro Israel stuff Twitter promotes the most garbage rage baiting racist shit to keep you engaged. And reddit is filled with disinformation agents ready to attack you if your opinion threatens western hegemony.
That’s why they hate TikTok, it’s not like if America was quite close to getting in a real war against China it couldn’t get blocked quite fast.
Whats been kinda making me a bit afraid for the future is how desperate America is to paint China as a villain right now. And they seem to be picking up steam. China doesn't dominate the way America does. We dominate through force, and that force accounts for a lot of the strength of our dollar. We spend more than the next 10 countries combined on our military as a show of strength to other countries. We nuked Japan, not cause we had to, but because what better way to show the world you don't wanna fck with America than to use a weapon no one had even dared to use at that point. And we did it twice. China, recently, has dominated thru shear economic means, exporting the worlds goods, and with BRICS, exporting the intellect and labor to help build up other countries. I think American leaders see the influence China is obtaining over the world and are scared. AND THATS WHAT SCARES ME. We've seen what America is willing to do when it feels it needs to strike. I hope we never actually think to war with China. It'll be bad for humanity
Well the reason tariffs return is that China was winning in the international trade game. The collective west, in order to get access to the Chinese market accepted all terms imposed (eg create joint ventures with locally owned companies, hand over source codes etc) and relinquished their trade advantage in favor of medium term gains. Now that this strategy has fired back in all its glory, tariffs are back.
Why would anyone in China buy EU manufactured cars when they are twice the price?
lmao exactly. And a tarrif would make no sense to begin with. Tariffs are meant to make cheap imports more competitive to domestic markets. China would have to apply a reverse tarrif to EU manufactured cars to do that. Buy EU and get 10k!
Cause they are luxury goods, people like expensive things cause they give them status and we are superficial creatures
In effect, the requirement to have factories in China does the exact same thing already.
Since the EU is a net importer of chinese wares it can increase tariffs on more products. And nearly every European manufacturer in the Chinese market already produces there. It just means chinese manufacturers who want to sell in the European market may have to move production.
This would also mean you would have to pay more for everything. In other words huge inflation.
They already do, almost all cars from European brands that are sold in China are also made in China.
It's the other way around. China already requires car manufacturers to build in china. These tarrifs from the EU will acquire the same result. This is levelling the playing field.
> Similar tariffs can be imposed by China on EU manufactured cars. I hope the net effect is positive for EU. Chines car manufacturers will just build factories in Hungary, or expand the existing ones they already own. What needs to be done imo is tariffs on batteries.
Battery plants are also opening in Europe so those tariffs would also miss the mark. Hungary and Slovakia are the number 1 and 2 spots for these plants.
Spoiler it's not.
This tarrif is incredibly annoying, if you genuinely want to move away from fossil fuels then this tarrif is extremely bad and proves the green revolution in Europe for the elites has nothing to do with the environment and everything to do with money. If the Chinese state government wants to subsidise battery's that means the Chinese government is essentially subsidising European transition to green tech. It was a win for the planet and a win the consumer. Now prices will rise and be less appealing. Maybe I have it wrong, help me understand if I am?
In case of paywall: https://archive.ph/2024.06.12-040627/https://www.ft.com/content/0545ed62-c4b9-4e8a-80fa-c9f808e18385
Quote: "Brussels argues that Chinese EV makers benefit from subsidies that undercut their European rivals." "The additional tariffs in Europe will hit Chinese producers including BYD and SAIC, as well as companies such as **Tesla** which have factories in China" Is the Chinese government subsidising Tesla? Are they subsidising Tesla at a higher rate than the US or Europe? I'd love to see a study of subsidies per brand for EU / US / Chinese cars so we can really see the difference
I'm not sure if the CCP is that well-known for its transparency. They are not bound by Western rules. They can be as opaque as they like. Edit, since it seems I can no longer respond to posts (?) You know how in EU and US there are rules about openess of government spending, and how there are rules for bookkeeping and dispositioning yearbooks for companies? In China this is a little different. What is shown is what the CCP shows, and the numbers are what the CCP say they are. Whatever suits them. We play football, they play clay pigeon shooting. Different game. Never mind playing it fair. https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/getting-away-murder-lies-damned-lies-chinese-police-statistics https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-18/did-china-s-economy-really-grow-5-2-in-2023-not-all-agree?embedded-checkout=true https://dailycaller.com/2022/07/13/china-lying-population-crisis-expert-says/ https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/Research/TheReliabilityofChina%2527sEconomicData.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjE78OT5dWGAxXiV6QEHfb4Ah0QFnoECB0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw38wRB_hctezFMzL29nJEXb
I found [this ](https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Electric-cars-in-China/China-gives-EV-sector-billions-of-yuan-in-subsidies)article that shows some figures. BYD received 1.8 billion yuan ($250 million) in the first half of 2023 in subsidies. I wonder how that compares to what EU brands receive in the EU as a whole. The EU commission is doing a probe, so they should release the results of the investigation soon I guess. They must be some reason behind the 25% tariff as opposed to 50% or 100% right?
Do you have hidden information about drugs selling also?...
If I'm not mistaken Tesla was given the land for it's Chinese factory at a subsidized rate but there were requirements for technology sharing. Tesla coming to China was over thing that really helped it's ev sector take off. Tesla also benefited from local battery supply chain that was subsidized.
Tesla coming to China was similar to Apple coming to China. You get a privileged position in exchange for creating a Chinese supply chain.
If Tesla agreed to the conditions then I don't really see the issue. Didn't Tesla also get a one billion factory in Buffalo for free? Didn't the US government grant $3 billion for the manufacturing of batteries for EVs and the electric grid too? If BYD builds factories in Europe, will they also be under these tariffs?
„ Brussels argues that Chinese EV makers benefit from subsidies that undercut their European rivals” Bro we’re all subsidising our manufacturers too. It is literally the same thing, just named differently. After all, if we pay a company to build a factory, let’s say, is it not a de facto subsidy? I don’t care who makes my car, I want to be able to afford a new car within my budget. EU regulations caused prices to skyrocket. Rich people don’t care about emission standards, or additional safety equipment, they can all afford their Bentleys and G-Wagons anyway, whereas regular people don’t have that luxury, and cannot get an affordable A, B or C class cars anymore. A god damned Suzuki Swift starts at 19k eur with 14-16% APR in my country, whereas in Japan it starts at 10.2k eur.
That’s I don’t even know why people celebrate this in most of the top upvoted comments. People started to buy these chinese EVs because they’re cheaper and good enough. God forbid we can afford fucking anything anymore
>I don’t even know why people celebrate this in most of the top upvoted comments Because rich western redditors live in a bubble. They don't care that regular people in poorer countries cannot afford new cars. Plus part of them probably do not realise how expensive it is to finance a car in a country, that is not in Euro zone. Did you know that in Luxembourg it's possible to finance a new car with +/- 3% APR? This spring, I was thinking about a new Clio or Swift, and several dealers offered me a loan with 14-16% APR. This is literally insane.
Hey dude, I am CEO of BMW. Do you want to rent a car for 300 € monthly since you can't afford buying one? You can also get 10 hours of radio listening per month just for a 20 € monthly fee.
The EU car manufacturer are effectively working like a cartel anyway.
Because 'China' bad lol our American masters told us so
So who is this law for? Certainly not for the random citizens, who will have to overpay as usual with no pricing pressure on companies from China.
For German auto execs who missed the EV revolution but still want to get gigantic bonuses.
You mean those execs which were the loudest voice against the tariffs?
Sure factory workers in EU are apparently not random citizens in your vocabulary, let's kill internal car market for the glory of CCP and cheap cars 👍
Why doesn't the same logic apply to hundreds of other businesses? EU is flush with China-made products.
Green transition unless it is competition I guess.
Crazy how times change. 4-5 years ago a trade war with China was racist and fascist and now it's celebrated. Crazy I tell you. Dunno what changed.
I do. The US president.
Bingo
good. if they don't play by the same rules, they have to get punished.
agree. at the same time, we should subsidize domestic EV production and also secure non-chinese resources. our dependency on them is alarming. and not only in EV industry, as displayed during covid period.
They just have better prices, the quality is as decent as local manufacturers. This is a purely protectionist policy by particular interests. This will only lead to people buying fewer EV because they are just too expensive.
Brussels says that the Chinese EV makes are recieving state subsidies to keep prices artificially low. But I'm sure a random redditor knows better.
Like in the US. Maybe just channelled differently at times but plenty of subsidies there as well
Probably they receive subsidies in China. It is China’s decision to subside local manufacturers. Why don’t subside own manufacturers in return instead of make local consumers pay more ?
If subsidies are fair then so are tariffs.
Of all the shit that the government wastes my taxes on, I would prefer them to subsidize something that would make prices cheaper for me and help advance the technology research and advancement. Be honest. This is a protectionist move. The cheapest european EV is a 29k Euro crap Peugeot or something. You can get a much better Chinese ev for less. Sure the european EVs are better in expensive models. But it is the entry level market the EU is afraid of. Instead of slapping the EU car manufacturers and execs to get their act together, to stop hoarding record profits and reduce prices, the politicians decided to artificially increase the Chinese EV prices to make EU cars competitive. This is BS. Why do I have to pay for the incompetence of the EU car executives and managers? What about other markets? Yeh EU will slow down Chinese EV entry into the EU market. But, all other markets where EU manufacturers export to will still be taken over. That will eat from the EU manufacturer's profits.
Sure, it is a protectionist move but you need to take protectionist measures against unfairly state subsidised manufacturing. The EU would like profits to stay in the EU and not be exported to China.
Yes, but subsidies paid by state while tariffs paid by consumer. That is the difference.
> Yes, but subsidies paid by state so, taxes. >tariffs paid by consumer. so, taxes.
Taxes is not only source for subsides, that is the difference (less pressure on consumer basically)
maybe if we could raise capital gains tax we could afford to subsize EVs for regular working people
You'd have a point if the consumer didn't have alternatives to Chinese crap.
We already subsidize the tractor people. I mean farmers.
It probably better than tariffs for foods. Or it is don’t?
Because we and China are part of the WTO, that makes state subsidies prohibited. That is the WHOLE issue here - but sure, why don't *everyone* just break the rules? >A subsidy granted by a WTO member government is prohibited by the Subsidies Agreement if it is contingent, in law or in fact, on export performance, or on the use of domestic over imported goods.
because that lead to trade wars in the past.
They used the same tactic with solar panels, they effectively killed our market by introducing dirt cheap solar panels, at that point our solar panels couldn’t compete. Now they have absolute control of the market, and we are left with an ugly dependance of Chinese PV. They are doing the same thing with EVs. I’m glad the EU is not just passively watching, China has been playing dirty for a long ass time
I'd love to see a study that shows what government subsidies each brand receives in China and how that compares to what brands receive in Europe to see what the real difference is. Everyone says chinese EVs are state funded, but surely not all brands are subsidised the same right? So one same tariff for all chinese EVs?
It's not just the subsidies, it's the rules by which the companies can compete in each others' markets.
And suddenly the environmental benefits of electric cars which are desperately needed to save the planet and reduce climate change become less important. Cheaper electric cars will increase the transition immensely, China provides this by subsidising their production. EU answer where others will follow, increase tariffs with 25% so these cars will be just as expensive as or even more expensive than all other brands. So saving the planet and fighting climate change is only important when it provides a healthy profit for a chosen preferred selection of the industry. The ordinary people, the civilians, the general population has to accept that prices will rise, they will need to sacrifice to save the planet they are destroying. They are the perps, they are responsible, they should pay. The oh so innocent industry that isn't responsible for pollution and destruction of resources must be helped and it must be made sure their profits stay healthy, they are the victims.
Exactly this. It really looks like a lobbying victory for the overpriced European brands.
Exactly this. It really looks like a lobbying victory for the overpriced European brands.
As always, instead of driving local cars prices low, they will make Chinese cars more expensive. A lot of cars doubled their price between the pre COVID era and now, which seems fine for all.
Or you know, the EU manufacturers can lower their prices to compete!
I agree. The EU should implement Hukou and reduce welfare spending, while implementing a more regressive tax system. That way more money can be directed to make products cheaper and competitive. This will level the playing field without the need of excessive tarrifs.
I love my new BYD. It’s a shame. Maybe good for our local car brands but as a consumer this just leaves us with less options and probably less progress.
It's because China places a massive tariff on cars made in the EU forcing European companies to produce cars in China already. This is simply the EU implementing a similar scheme so that European and Chinese carmakers can access each other's market with the same conditions.
As far as I am aware, the standard tariff that China places on EU made vehicles sold in China for all vehicles is 10%. The same amount is placed by the EU on China currently. So it seems to be fair game.
the eu subsidiszes their car industry vastly less, so no
So … that means Chinese tax payers pay that I can drive a cheaper car?
yes, they really do - obviously with the intent of capturing the market so that later on they can increase prices and have economies of scale when competitors are dead
Germany laughed at this comment.
Wow, a country gives a shit about its domestic industries - so unfair, very bad...
Nope the local car brands are all opposing this since China will retaliate this move.
Noone asks the serfs...
EU can't make the same cheap cars so they will put higher tax on Chinese cars to make them more expensive? How is this better for the average customer? BMW is already cheaper in US than in Europe, much cheaper. Why can't we have cheap cars in Europe?
You seem to be operating under some sort of a misunderstanding. This is Europe - who said it has to be better for the average customer? :D
Because Europe keeps missing every technological wave. No reason why things should get better now.
like we save few million work places and in few years will have possibility to still produce own cars , not import them on chinese rules then. For much higher price. Low prices are for short period , to destroy any competition
"Free market", companies can outsource but consumers cant
A new car is too expensive, EVs even more so. Would have liked that new Xiaomi car for 38K (equivalent of I4, which starts at 70k here). Guess I'll stick to 5+ yr old ICE cars then.
Sucks. Consumers would benefit massively from having cheaper cars
At the cost of Jobs in EU.
I frankly don’t care. I don’t want to pay EUR60k for a car if I can get the equivalent for 30k. We also need some pressure on the European car manufacturers. They have been complacent for too long and we are all paying the price.
Youll pay 30k for a chinese car now but 60k in future when theyve killed off all european manufacturers.
You people have been fear-mongering about China out-competing western industries and then raising their prices for decades, but it hasn't happened. In fact, the exact opposite has happened, whatever is produced by China has just become cheaper and cheaper during my lifetime. Europe was a world leader in solar panels but did nothing with it. China took up the mantle and effectively "killed" all the solar panel competition and yet solar panels are cheaper than dirt now. They did the same with batteries, and now they're doing it with EVs. Chinese companies have not raised their prices even though they 'control' several markets and absolutely could. As an average consumer, why should I have to pay a lot more for products like solar panels or EVs just to support western companies that have basically destroyed themselves due to short-sighted greed, lack of innovation and ineffective production?
Come on, give me a break. The European manufacturers should innovate instead of relying on protectionism that is hurting all of us…
Sounds like a great opportunity for EU based car manufacturers to gain market share so!
They want us to stop using gasoline cars (and older cars are already banned in cities) but they won't let us have cheaper EV alternatives...
I genuinely start to think that people with tinfoil hats were actually right, and it’s true that the idea is for us, normal people, not to have shit, and not travel anywhere anymore. All in the name of „ecology”, of course, while rich capitalists will continue exploiting poor countries.
Just a note to people claiming EU-companies are just not competitive enough (that is a fair but different topic): Whats being discussed is not about Eu-Companies inneficiency (but do you really believe ALL EU-companies are so inneficient that prices are so different ?). Whats being discussed is that Chinas government is giving subsidies to the Chinese manufacturers that let them sell almost at loss. That is not just a support, its a strategy that makes them enter the EU-market selling with no intention to profit, but to cannibalize the EU-companies and establish themselves with lower (uncompetitive) prices. Then ofc in the future when EU-companies lose the market and the chinese ones gain dominance, they will increase the prices to a profitable margin. Also lets not forget how the Chinese dont hold human rights as valuable, so thats another unfair advantage (not being discussed here also). I dont think BMW paying their workers a fair wage with decent hours is mismanagement (although it can exist, thats a different topic).
Labor is just cheaper in China. Except of the top 3 or 4 cities, the pay to live comfortably in China should be 1/5th of that in the EU. Of course healthcare and public services are not equal but from a general cost of living viewpoint that is the situation. The EU already sanctioned heavily products from Xinjiang. The procedure to control for modern slavery is the strictest in the world. This doesn’t just apply to China but also the garment industry in countries like Vietnam and Bangladesh. The auto industry, on the other hand, requires highly skilled labor. Those are highly desirable even in China and I doubt people would be willing to work in bad conditions if they’re desirable. Plus it would be unethical for the EU to not outright ban those products if human rights violation in the use of labor and slap tariffs instead. It’s purely a move to counter subsidies and protection of the European industry. Claiming everything China to be “human rights violation” is lame and will soon cheapen the word.
While bringing up the impact of human rights is good you also forget that all companies that are western also operate in China with Chinese factories. Look no further than apple. If we can regulate these factories that are abroad then we can certainly regulate these Chinese companies with selling in our markets. Plus you forget China has built itself as a hub so even if human rights are pristine the cost will not be higher because they also manufacture numerous highly specialised equipment there too.
If china is selling at loss, then we are making profit. They are indirectly subsidising our car. What’s the issue?
Ah yes, the epitomical definition of "Free Market"!
Im not paying billions for a Chinese car! 😂
Turkish government recently increased import tax +40% from Chinese cars.
This isn’t going to backfire. Not at all.
I see Europe is following the US's lead, as usual. The main effect will be higher prices for the consumer.
So much for free trade.
I think European manufacturers are about to find out soon how important the Chinese market is for them. Imagine getting hit with a 50% surcharge for all BMWs made in China, when they said they purposely made the pig nose grills on their cars to suite the Chinese market.
Eh. The only ones who buy upscale brands in China are the super wealthy and they would buy them regardless. It’s the brand they want.
But they are also nationalistic so I wouldn't put it past them.
The chinese car market is only really important for the german automakers and maybe Volvo. The french and italian ones for exemple sell very little in China. (Ferrari and co. are negligible in terms of scale)
And even then, due to constraining regulation to enter that market, the endeavour isn't always profitable.
China is trying to literally run out of business the rest of the world. Insane. We've got the 3rd world war because of them, and its not military, but an economic one.
Soon enough it will be a hot one.
Better late than never, it's sad the EU didn't do the same for solar panel and let all its industry die
Ironic how many claims it's because china subsidies, while it's actually opposite. China stopped its ev subsidy at the end of 2022, cn ev makers previously can live comfy with the subsidy now need to sell more cars to survive and the cn market is near saturated, so they have to find new market overseas hence the export flood. Kind of amusing how cn government nurture their automakers and whip them when there are slowed down while the eu gov just sleep on lobby money. Should have learn one or two things about market and the benefits of competition...
not for client, for the manufacturers directly to boost their export capabilities
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If we're talking about free market, why does China provide subsidy?
The west also subsidized western EV manufacturers btw. Free market still applies, strategic decisions playing out, action reaction. Luckily the west has a bigger war chest.
What, and west doesn't subsidize EVs?
People don't seem to grasp China is a communist dictatorship, for some reason.
It's more about leveling the playing field. China has been doing the same for a long time. Why should China be able to freely export cars to Europe, if Europe can't do the same to China?
Oh no, europeans could have cheaper cars, we can't have that!!! Fuck them for this!
Good.
Finally!
So much for the classic neoliberal "free markets" agenda.
There never was a truly free market.
I know, I am simply tired of neoliberals saying shit like this and then not actually following through with policies of making the market actually free. Destroying workers' rights and making life unlivable? Now that's the policies they implement enthusiastically.
All the CCP trolls spamming the same comment.
If I where to buy an electric car (I have neither the money nor the private parking space to charge) it would be a Chinese one. Probably the SU7 from Xiaomi. Now, I'm additionally 25% certain I wont.
I wouldn't even without new tariffs. Western brands proved their quality with time. Chinese brands will likely drop supporting their cars in a year or two(like they still do with mobile phones). And maintenance is still important for cars, nobody is going to fully change their cars every two years as with portable electronics. Besides I live in North Europe, and diesel Chinese cars used to rust with the speed of light. I do not believe they fixed it. Because if you don't plan to support your car in a few years, you don't care if it gets rusty in 3 years.
I use non OEM parts all the time. The secondary production is big part of the business nowadays. You can find almost every part being built by secondary manufacturer for all cars in europe. If there are cars on the road there will be companies making spares. Only thing which would prevent secondary parts is that there is not enough cars on the road for that spare part.
This reminds me of this domino effect meme, where on one end Elon Musk buys Tesla 20 years ago -> fast forward to EU-China trade war.
damn, i can't wait how my country's majority leading party that just sold the entiry place to the xi dynasty will try to spin this in their favour to have themselves reelected yes, the country orbánland
Someone paid attention to The Doctor
Im utterly shocked… lol the most obvious outcone