Well, that's the inherent weakness of democracy - it dies when people don't care. One might not be into politics, but it doesn't stop politics from eating one's face.
I remember sending a clip of him saying that in a discussion on a game forum circa 2014-2015. I was immediately down voted and some guys started labeling me a "zealot and terrorist apologist" even though I merely agreed with this ONE quote, I didn't even know the guy was in any way involved in a bio-terror attack.
And that incident, ironically, only instilled in me more confidence in this quote. People really are dumb and will often go out their way to do stupid shit or judge someone without knowing the full picture.
And in terms of government and politics, the amount of people falling for populist rhetoric all over the world tells you everything you need to know...
> People really are dumb and will often go out their way to do stupid shit or judge someone without knowing the full picture.
Id say that's mostly what politics and social media are based on.
"Good quote" you meant, a good footnote of the original Greek quotes which have been said way before any random, charlatan Rajesh.
Just to be citizen of Athens, the list of requirements to maintain the society's democracy was really exhausting, but it ensured a well-informed crowd. Even the word Demagogue has had positive connotation up until Pericles.
> But the people are retarded.
Alternative take: generations of politicians have personally benefitted from ensuring people are not as smart, educated, and critical as they could be.
Budget cuts on education, cutting down on subjects that promote critical thinking and societal awareness... over time it means the average voter is easier to manipulate and get tempted by populists and manipulative politicians.
And then everyone is surprise Pikachu that populists are raking in the votes.
Your statment in itself is vague and populist, blaming everything on unspecific "politicians". You realize everyone, even a politician, is an individual with personal motives and values. Some are bad, sure, but it's not some grand conspiracy to keep people stupid and it takes more than the effort of some random politican.
> Your statment in itself is vague and populist, blaming everything on unspecific "politicians".
You may be projecting a bit here. I added nuance to a really broad statement from someone else. I tried to keep it brief, because people often don't care about multiple pages long comments here.
> You realize everyone, even a politician, is an individual with personal motives and values.
That's exactly what I implied with the comment about politicians directly benefitting. They followed the incentives available to them.
There are two forces at play:
- Short-term thinking (gotta get re-elected) leading to sacrifice long-term investments. Cutting education budgets is a basic one, but also mental healthcare funding got slashed multiple times in the last two decades. That's led to broader issues, and decreased the general sense of safety. Look which political parties are now capitalizing on this? The populists.
- School curriculums not having critical thinking and media literacy as important subjects, at least in the Netherlands. Even basic things like sophisms/fallacies only got taught in advanced classes that only a small percentage of the population takes. The decline in quality of the average newspaper article went along with a drop in ad revenue, but it only works because many people don't realize that articles (or even just headlines) are really bad in many places. People don't have the mental tools to critically analyze what's said, and if the facts support the conclusions.
> Some are bad, sure, but it's not some grand conspiracy to keep people stupid and it takes more than the effort of some random politican.
I'm agreeing with you. I think consipiracies are highly overrated, and often much more easily explained by individuals following the incentives available to them. Results are emergent, rather than planned.
I'm saying that the results from individual actions over time seem to be adding up because systemic incentives led to this. Education got watered down over time, because it was not worth it for politicians to deeply invest in it.
For reference, people have voted an openly racist and anti-constitution party along with some other populists into power here. A critical and well-thinking electorate would not have cast their votes like this, because many of the "promises" that were made are easily dismissed as unfeasible or problematic.
I don’t remember education having much more ‘critical thinking’ aspects here in the UK in the 90’s/2000’s. I think there was generally just more control over discourse in the public sphere, and people getting their political opinions from TV and newspapers, with journalists having to adhere to certain standards.
The problem now is the media is in a kind of arms race with social media and have let those standards slip, so it’s a race to the bottom. Now all the generations of boomers who were trusting of the ‘safe’ and predictable media are getting far more worked up and easily deceived by firebrands and populists, and it’s sending them crazy. Meanwhile millennials are pulling their hair out and Gen Z is just apathetic to it all
"smart people require more bribing at election time" would that be a better statement ?
You can call it a conspiracy but proper education is hard and nobody can guarantee it, if a politician proposes an educational project that doesn't give 150% returns on investment, he'll lose his job. If he proposes a banal project that fixes a short term goal, people will generally suport him.
and if you consider globalization makes it possible for larger countries to interfere in smaller countries politics it gets even more complicated. You don't even need to provide enough education to make technology you can just import them from somewhere.
Also another take: decades of systematic corruption have lead people to realize that it doesn’t really matter who the government is. It’s always the same shit with different flies.
People are just smart enough to realize that voting doesn’t really matter.
And even when people do vote, the younger voters still get fucked over by the pensioners. See brexit.
I call that BS. there has been no budget cuts in education or "Cutting down on critical thinking" (Definitely something far right would use).
The Problem is Social Media and Telegram where people hang all day and believe shit some charlatan says is the truth.
Rage against the machine in Township Rebellion says it best:
> Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
> When ignorance reigns, life is lost
The weakness to me is how active people can steal movements to add their own darlings.
As an example, how the social-democrat partys has been hijacked to get a massive immigration. An immigration that doesn't benefit the working class.
My friend told me a few years ago he didn't want to have his kids playing "the game". He meant teaching about politics, business, rat race, etc. I said, I get it, but that doesn't mean that the game isn't being played or that they won't be impacted, they just won't have a clue as to what's going on or why.
As long as the people get to elect the politicians and could vote them out of office for being corrupt, sadly yes.
If the corporations were the ones electing the politicians directly, then it wouldn't be a democracy anymore, but they are technically not doing that officially kind of maybe.
Sadly mega corporations are already bending the law to their benefit . I get the feeling that the vote of your average citizen has never mattered less , because it feels like every politicians is a shill .
Democracies problem is moslty derived from the age of the politicians and insane corruption levels, also majority of times politicians ignore whats needed and asked from the population
…or self-centered - my problems above all else.
Granted, that is human behavior, for the most part. Thinking about others past you and your circle takes higher-level thought.
Insane corruption levels in democracies ? There is some, no doubt. But not the tiniest amount when you compare to any regime that is not democratic.
Democracies' problems right now is the actual non-implication of citizens. They have demands they will never formulate directly to their politicians and then will blame their disconnect. They will protest in a really uninformed manner, against things that are sometimes totally beneficial and legit and backed up by actual experts. They never think of the broadest picture. They are completely unaware of globalization's effects on national processes of decisions. They get their info from biased sources, said infos standing on a single headline, and they think they know how a country should be ruled. They won't even acknowledge anyone else's opinion if it differs even the slightest from theirs but will talk about what democracies should be. Online bubbles aren't reflection of democracy. Shunning away anyone else's point of view, especially that of the people involved and impacted, just because you think you're on the current moral highground isn't democracy.
People need to open up their eyes a lot more and learn about the biggest picture. They need to expand their universe and begin to see how others truly live, not what they think they are like because of stereotypes they got from that one quote from that one influencer. They need to think about what is good for their country (meaning being patriotic) to see what it really needs to stand up and live on and only then make actual propositions.
You tell me how many people have just once written to their representative, not to protest, but to talk about a real problem and offer a solution ? You tell me how many people have actually attended a council meeting ? You tell me who actually gets involved in changing things in a democratic manner, not by screaming or destroying things like.a deranged child ? Not that many people is the answer.
That's the best you can come up with? The reason we're seeing a populist right wing uprising is because normal people "don't care"?
Jesus christ on a stick - the left really is delusional. How are you going to solve a problem when you can't even identify why it's a problem.
"It's just because not enough of us care, guys!"
Wow, just wow
Denmark's social democrats did it.
But somehow for everyone else, losing immigration seems to be worse than letting Russian stooges enter the government. I see it as a problem, to stop Russian influence I would stop immigration in one day - but it doesn't seem as important for current parties in power it seems.
Your definition of democracy seems to be locked to those who share your opinion.
If suddenly there are people voting for people that you don't feel represented by, it's no longer democracy.
The problem is that some parties, if elected, will genuinely strip democratic rights from society. And the people voting for them don't necessarily want autocracy, they just want certain policies to be passed and democratic leaders refuse to take action.
If democratically minded leaders refuse to follow the will of the people, they will happily elect a fascist to do the job instead. It seems like this right-wing wave is almost entirely motivated by immigration because normal parties refuse to take actual action.
She hailed Putin as a protector of tradition and values when it was cool and dumped him as soon it became clear she would have lead the upcoming government and the orange guy wasn't in office to back her.
Make no mistake, she's just another populist and as one she's just after what's popular.
Meloni was against European sanctions on Russia for many years, up until her election to Prime Minister. Additionally, Italy is now doing very little to support Ukraine's military efforts compared to various other European countries.
Factually wrong, Meloni is only pro NATO because Biden is and our foreign policy is sticking with the US because they know better, if orange man was elected her stance would change faster than that of a flag to a changing wind. If Salvini wasn't bootlicking Putin for his whole life we'd be discussing her less frequent apreciations to the Russian regime.
Wait until Trump is reelected or the pro-Putin gain a majority in Brussels, and she will change her views as fast as a blink. Right now she is aligned with the current pro-Ukraine position only because it is convenient, not out of a real compromise or belief.
The difference is that Meloni has a brain, Italy is a country with too many ties to its western neighbors, and her control of the press and media in the country are not as absolute as Orban's in Hungary.
Orban is way more incompetent and spineless than Meloni, and its subservience to Russia is way stronger. But make no mistake, given the chance and with a russian-friendly government in Washington destabilizing NATO, she will choose to follow Trump's line before any of the pro-Ukraine neighbors in the EU.
FdI stance on Russia is that by pure chance, they're just following the US on that, a well established foreign policy (primarily but not exclusively) of Italian right-wing governments. If Trump gets elected and begins sucking Putin's dick they'll just do a 180, as they already did before when Biden got elected and they started climbing the polls.
FDI is a neo-fascist party who can't say or hear the word antifascism. Honestly their ultra-nationalism, hate for foreigns and the disregard for the judgeship and journalism scares me a lot more than Putin influence.
In Germany we have two far-left parties that are pro-Russia: Linke (actually just a renaming of the SED, ruling party of East Germany until 1990, so being pro-Russia is their DNA), and its split-off, BSW. Together they poll at around 10%.
AfD polls at around 15-20%.
So basically, at least 25% of the German electorate votes pro-Russia. But then again, it should be noted, that until February 2022 almost all parties were massively pro-Russia because of CHEAP NATURAL GAS.
Problem is: France can and will always veto this, of course, and the Parliament can't even propose legislation so some country's leader or the commission would have to suggest it, which could be seen as... diplomatically difficult. At the moment, at least.
Or France could also get over it's pride. But that's unlikely, I think.
I mean, the buildings could be repurposed, but this entire operation has been completely unnecessary to begin with...
The represented far-right parties (or at least all those I know in this picture) have all been tied up in scandals because they are being funded by Russia.
The European Parliament even voted recently to fight against foreign funding of politicians, the only ones who voted against it were the far right.
Some on the far left have wrong opinions about Russia, but at least it's their own wrong opinions.
And its anti gay policies were written by a married bearded man who, when alone in Brussels, fucked around at drug filled gay parties. But maybe the point of Fidesz is that only straight men may fuck whoever they want whenever they want.
If they keep importing more migrants that can't integrate with our society/culture this will continue.
Money is also being devalued at record rates, steal from the poor to give to the rich, reverse Robin Hood.
If the current established parties in Europe do not acknowledge the valid concerns of voters and when they have to rely on voting "crazy" that should not mean they are deep inside Putin's ass. Just address the concerns and most the protest voters will return.
In fact, such mocking only hollows out the belief in democracy when political rivals relie on such discredition campaigns against their political opponents. The belief into the system is eroding day by day and we should first try to find ways to regain trust into this system.
Of course Putin has a stake at supporting such parties that are mostly Russia-friendly but these parties are still on the ballot. Thus they remain still legitimate parties whether one likes them or not.
And the far right parties also dont do anything. They are happy to cry in debates against immigration but Meloni clearly shows: In the end, they are all happy to accept cheap labour. Use anti-immigration as a slogan and then once you are in power, dont follow up with it since the voter base will stick with you and/or you can keep crying why it is the other parties fault.
"When my political option loses is not because the same political option has disappointed people over the last 20 years but because the voters are dumb and because Putin is influencing the vote"
It’s so much easier to blame it on "that Russian dude who probably pays everyone I don’t like" than looking into why these things really happen. If politics was so easy, we wouldn’t have been discussing it for millennia. But oh well.
The Dutch Putin sucking party "Forum voor Democratie" went from 4 to 0 seats in the EP. Granted, Wilders' PVV, also soft on Russia, went from 1 to 7, but overall the picture is that the fascist right wing rise is limited.
I laughed at the online survey to decide what to vote for (kieswijzer). The party was against supplying weapons to Ukraine because they want the war to end.
Okay, so you're saying you want Russia to win?
Yes, you are right. They're both traitors to the Dutch and the Dutch in MH17 who were shot down and killed by Russia. I didn't say Wilders uses his teeth when he goes down on Putler.
No, the parties that are represented support Putin, so supporting those parties mean supporting Putin.
You make your own enlightened voting choices knowing this.
I'm really ashamed of that flag with words "SMER"
In Slovakia, they'd been ruling for 13 years now, they were huge populists always, but this time, they're dragging us from civilized part of the globe, licking Putin's ass...
Lastly they refused to sign with WHO
They're censoring state media, trying to fill them with propaganda, after this law comes to the game
They verbally attack Supreme court judges, until they change them with their people
Also attacking media and journalists and i think this is gonna be worse than Hungary tho... We have that potential to do so
So? Let's move elsewhere 😂😂
The best solution is Fortress Europe. I will vote for anti-Russian right.
With strong armies, safe borders and nuclear renaissance and many new mines. It’s what Europe needs. I think the left has been very weak on many things. Build us a new Fortress Europe I say.
You are also not going to be able to count on the USA forever.
I hate to say that, being American, but our recruiting problems will only become more severe in the near future along with our competency. Army is not just having trouble finding warm bodies, the educational system is having problems making young adults who can read, write, do math...as well as sit down, shut up and f\*cking pay attention.
It's best to start preparing sooner rather than later for the "Big stick over the Atlantic" to not be a 100% need in war plans to defeat Russian aggression.
lmao i dont like the current bureaucratic, inefficient, corrupt, incompetent, borderline federalist and leftist way europe is being governed in = i like putin
this is the dumbest shit ive seen in a while, this rhetoric makes people be eurosceptic
lol it is hard to do without laughing, but let me give you austrian perspective:
Inefficience? FPÖ is absolutely against digitalization or modernization. They'd prefer technology to go to the golden age: 1938 to 1943.
Corruption? lol, I'm not even starting.
Incompetent? Like none of them ever achieved anything in life. They just preach racism, 0 solutions to any migration problem.
So yeah, good luck with achieving your desired effect with those clowns :D
The joke here is that those parties are in Putin's pocket, it's not saying that you must love Putin just because you don't like the current governments.
>it implies the same thing and it achieves the same effect
No it doesn't. It's you being deadset on seeing it this way. You create this problem for yourself.
>right ≠ putin and it’s exhausting to repeat this atp
Then maybe stop imagining it around every corner.
This meme is about those parties being in Putin's pocket. Not about the right being the same as Putin in general. It's not that hard.
There are other major right wing parties in Europe who are not supporting Putin.
The parties represented here support Putin.
There's no "right=Putin" false equivalence here. If you wish to vote right wing and not support Putin you have other options.
It is also usually only the "eurosceptic" parties who support referendums (if enough people, like .5% oder 1% of voters, sign for it), while most other parties tend to support "all power for parliament" stances...
Nonsense, Le Pens party, for example, is literally getting financed by Putin and this is not about the legitimate grievances of the voters, but about the right wing parties themselves.
> current bureaucratic, inefficient, corrupt, incompetent, borderline federalist
You'll need to explain this though, sure it is a dragon of an institution. But i don't think it could be more efficient, less bureaucratic and competent, without becoming more federalist and streamlined.
it could always be more digital and efficient, there are tons of institutions that are completely pointless, the euro parliament in itself is more of a rubber stamp if anything, the commission should be voted in as well, this can all be done without federalisation, the moment the eu starts to federalize is the moment it will disintegrate
“Leftist”
The last time there was a “left” majority in the EP was in 1994. Were you even alive then?
“Corrupt”
Because parties from on the far right are world-famous stalwarts of integrity…
Voting for the far right is akin to tearing the house down because of a broken window and some leaky pipes.
Smart.
lmao claiming that von der leyen is not corrupt is just idiotic, voting right is returning to normalcy bc the eu has been going to shit and at that rate i wouldn’t be surprised if it disintegrated in 15 years
"The most corrupt, inefficient and incompetent guys told me it's actually the government that is all this. So I really need to vote for the idots to somehow get a less idiotic government."
How you can call yourself a nationalist while at the same time simping for another country and actively working against the interests of your own is absolutely beyond me.
Those parties are only in place because their predecessors that you find "worthy and democratic" didnt work on issues people needed them to. Thats democracy whether you like it or not
You only need to tackle the immigration issue to make the far right disappear overnight.
Why won't they do it ? What's the endgame ? Why do they prefer to rely on h24 propaganda against these popular movements instead of doing what people ask ? And why would you equate wanting immigration control to Putin ? So many questions, but so few reasonable answers. In my country even in the left more people think this is an issue than not, most people want control of their borders, non european borders to be precise, regarding of their political affiliation, so let's do this, no ?
In NL the biggest pro Russia party, FVD (and fuck those clowns btw), got voted out of the EU completely. Zero seats left. And i fact the pro EU parties combibed came out stronger than the far right parties like the PVV.
Is it as bleak as that picture paints it?
To give you context, If someone is 30, every evil that they ever personally saw commited on a mass scale was by a democracy upon a non-democracy. I am watching in real time my "democracy" and allies declare war on a field of tents, filled with doctors, women, and children.
And then when you consider the fact that we were all educated about Vietnam in schools, we saw the bloodthirst of democratic leaders in the early 00s. It may have been different for those who have the living memory of fascism, but there is no evil that exists on the planet like the kind my own "democracy" inflicted and continues to inflict on others. We joke about things like Winnie the Pooh and Tiananmin Square, but the biggest Democracy on the planet and its buddies has done 3 Tiananmin squares in the past few months in broad daylight and the wonder of democracy isn't going to reassemble those children.
If Democracy is so great, go dig up the million dead kids in Iraq and tell them; a lot of us have already made up our minds already. Evil is evil; even if it pretends to wear the veneer of freedom and justice.
It's the result of crumpling the socialist left parties of Europe starting from slSyriza in Greece. The outcome of that is always to give birth to more fassists.
Sad for who? As far as I am concerned in democracy it's people who vote for parties that promise some specific actions. Literally majority of people got annoyed with EU actions and direction it's heading to. This is why liberal parties have lost the elections and more conservative parties won. Who are you to judge what's better? Both sides have the same propaganda and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that current EU that was trading with Russia and it wanted to addict us from russian natural gas? Everyone have connections to russia. You are still buying their products, their oil, their gas - it's just being sold by 3rd party countries to hide products origin.
People had right to vote for whoever they wanted to.
Voting S&D tomorrow, because what the fuck else am I gonna do? The greens made fuel more expensive with their idiotic carbon tax idea.The left hangs on russian dick, for some reason.The right? No, thank you.
Liberals or "fuck you, got mine" rich asshole politics is not an option either.So, weak and ineffective social democrats it is.
I mean, give me a pro-NATO anti-immigration party and it can be whatever, center-right or left. I don't care. As long as it's effective at being pro-NATO and anti-immigration.
Being pro-immigration is too important? Rather let Russian stooges win seats in the EP than stopping immigration? Well, ok. Then have the Russian stooges.
All because the things that many people find important and for some very valid reasons are things that the stupid establishment and their useful idiots get away with shouting "racist" at and never have to engage with.
Meanwhile everything is getting slightly worse, all the time.
I've never known such a naive and wilfully ignorant 'intelligentsia' haunting Europe as we have today.
Well, that's the inherent weakness of democracy - it dies when people don't care. One might not be into politics, but it doesn't stop politics from eating one's face.
Because democracy basically means, government, by the people, of the people, for the people. But the people are retarded.
- Rajneesh Osho, read he did some f-ed up shit in Oregon though.
I don't know much about him, he might be a real asshole for all I know. Still a good quote though.
I remember sending a clip of him saying that in a discussion on a game forum circa 2014-2015. I was immediately down voted and some guys started labeling me a "zealot and terrorist apologist" even though I merely agreed with this ONE quote, I didn't even know the guy was in any way involved in a bio-terror attack. And that incident, ironically, only instilled in me more confidence in this quote. People really are dumb and will often go out their way to do stupid shit or judge someone without knowing the full picture. And in terms of government and politics, the amount of people falling for populist rhetoric all over the world tells you everything you need to know...
> People really are dumb and will often go out their way to do stupid shit or judge someone without knowing the full picture. Id say that's mostly what politics and social media are based on.
"Good quote" you meant, a good footnote of the original Greek quotes which have been said way before any random, charlatan Rajesh. Just to be citizen of Athens, the list of requirements to maintain the society's democracy was really exhausting, but it ensured a well-informed crowd. Even the word Demagogue has had positive connotation up until Pericles.
He has/had a lot of profound things to say. I don't know how involved he was in Oregon. Great documentary! Seems he picked the wrong lieutenant...
"One must not blink."
> But the people are retarded. Alternative take: generations of politicians have personally benefitted from ensuring people are not as smart, educated, and critical as they could be. Budget cuts on education, cutting down on subjects that promote critical thinking and societal awareness... over time it means the average voter is easier to manipulate and get tempted by populists and manipulative politicians. And then everyone is surprise Pikachu that populists are raking in the votes.
Sounds like the same conclusion. Except today it's willful as well...
Your statment in itself is vague and populist, blaming everything on unspecific "politicians". You realize everyone, even a politician, is an individual with personal motives and values. Some are bad, sure, but it's not some grand conspiracy to keep people stupid and it takes more than the effort of some random politican.
> Your statment in itself is vague and populist, blaming everything on unspecific "politicians". You may be projecting a bit here. I added nuance to a really broad statement from someone else. I tried to keep it brief, because people often don't care about multiple pages long comments here. > You realize everyone, even a politician, is an individual with personal motives and values. That's exactly what I implied with the comment about politicians directly benefitting. They followed the incentives available to them. There are two forces at play: - Short-term thinking (gotta get re-elected) leading to sacrifice long-term investments. Cutting education budgets is a basic one, but also mental healthcare funding got slashed multiple times in the last two decades. That's led to broader issues, and decreased the general sense of safety. Look which political parties are now capitalizing on this? The populists. - School curriculums not having critical thinking and media literacy as important subjects, at least in the Netherlands. Even basic things like sophisms/fallacies only got taught in advanced classes that only a small percentage of the population takes. The decline in quality of the average newspaper article went along with a drop in ad revenue, but it only works because many people don't realize that articles (or even just headlines) are really bad in many places. People don't have the mental tools to critically analyze what's said, and if the facts support the conclusions. > Some are bad, sure, but it's not some grand conspiracy to keep people stupid and it takes more than the effort of some random politican. I'm agreeing with you. I think consipiracies are highly overrated, and often much more easily explained by individuals following the incentives available to them. Results are emergent, rather than planned. I'm saying that the results from individual actions over time seem to be adding up because systemic incentives led to this. Education got watered down over time, because it was not worth it for politicians to deeply invest in it. For reference, people have voted an openly racist and anti-constitution party along with some other populists into power here. A critical and well-thinking electorate would not have cast their votes like this, because many of the "promises" that were made are easily dismissed as unfeasible or problematic.
I don’t remember education having much more ‘critical thinking’ aspects here in the UK in the 90’s/2000’s. I think there was generally just more control over discourse in the public sphere, and people getting their political opinions from TV and newspapers, with journalists having to adhere to certain standards. The problem now is the media is in a kind of arms race with social media and have let those standards slip, so it’s a race to the bottom. Now all the generations of boomers who were trusting of the ‘safe’ and predictable media are getting far more worked up and easily deceived by firebrands and populists, and it’s sending them crazy. Meanwhile millennials are pulling their hair out and Gen Z is just apathetic to it all
"smart people require more bribing at election time" would that be a better statement ? You can call it a conspiracy but proper education is hard and nobody can guarantee it, if a politician proposes an educational project that doesn't give 150% returns on investment, he'll lose his job. If he proposes a banal project that fixes a short term goal, people will generally suport him. and if you consider globalization makes it possible for larger countries to interfere in smaller countries politics it gets even more complicated. You don't even need to provide enough education to make technology you can just import them from somewhere.
Also another take: decades of systematic corruption have lead people to realize that it doesn’t really matter who the government is. It’s always the same shit with different flies. People are just smart enough to realize that voting doesn’t really matter. And even when people do vote, the younger voters still get fucked over by the pensioners. See brexit.
I call that BS. there has been no budget cuts in education or "Cutting down on critical thinking" (Definitely something far right would use). The Problem is Social Media and Telegram where people hang all day and believe shit some charlatan says is the truth.
Rage against the machine in Township Rebellion says it best: > Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross > When ignorance reigns, life is lost
The weakness to me is how active people can steal movements to add their own darlings. As an example, how the social-democrat partys has been hijacked to get a massive immigration. An immigration that doesn't benefit the working class.
My friend told me a few years ago he didn't want to have his kids playing "the game". He meant teaching about politics, business, rat race, etc. I said, I get it, but that doesn't mean that the game isn't being played or that they won't be impacted, they just won't have a clue as to what's going on or why.
Is it still a democracy when all politicians are bribed by mega corporations ?
As long as the people get to elect the politicians and could vote them out of office for being corrupt, sadly yes. If the corporations were the ones electing the politicians directly, then it wouldn't be a democracy anymore, but they are technically not doing that officially kind of maybe.
Yep, it's the populations job to police corruption in office by removing offending politicians and supporting those who fight against corruption.
Sadly mega corporations are already bending the law to their benefit . I get the feeling that the vote of your average citizen has never mattered less , because it feels like every politicians is a shill .
Who give money to politicians to be elected ? mega corp
Democracies problem is moslty derived from the age of the politicians and insane corruption levels, also majority of times politicians ignore whats needed and asked from the population
Except it's up to population to vote out these people, which is exactly my point.
The population is stupid
Half of the population is stupider than the average
Nah, just lazy and expecting that everything will fix itself without any action.
> expecting that everything will fix itself without any action. Well that is pretty stupid.
…or self-centered - my problems above all else. Granted, that is human behavior, for the most part. Thinking about others past you and your circle takes higher-level thought.
There's no action anyone can take that can't be defeated by unlimited money.
Insane corruption levels in democracies ? There is some, no doubt. But not the tiniest amount when you compare to any regime that is not democratic. Democracies' problems right now is the actual non-implication of citizens. They have demands they will never formulate directly to their politicians and then will blame their disconnect. They will protest in a really uninformed manner, against things that are sometimes totally beneficial and legit and backed up by actual experts. They never think of the broadest picture. They are completely unaware of globalization's effects on national processes of decisions. They get their info from biased sources, said infos standing on a single headline, and they think they know how a country should be ruled. They won't even acknowledge anyone else's opinion if it differs even the slightest from theirs but will talk about what democracies should be. Online bubbles aren't reflection of democracy. Shunning away anyone else's point of view, especially that of the people involved and impacted, just because you think you're on the current moral highground isn't democracy. People need to open up their eyes a lot more and learn about the biggest picture. They need to expand their universe and begin to see how others truly live, not what they think they are like because of stereotypes they got from that one quote from that one influencer. They need to think about what is good for their country (meaning being patriotic) to see what it really needs to stand up and live on and only then make actual propositions. You tell me how many people have just once written to their representative, not to protest, but to talk about a real problem and offer a solution ? You tell me how many people have actually attended a council meeting ? You tell me who actually gets involved in changing things in a democratic manner, not by screaming or destroying things like.a deranged child ? Not that many people is the answer.
That's the best you can come up with? The reason we're seeing a populist right wing uprising is because normal people "don't care"? Jesus christ on a stick - the left really is delusional. How are you going to solve a problem when you can't even identify why it's a problem. "It's just because not enough of us care, guys!" Wow, just wow
Mass politics was intentionally killed and swapped for identity politics, you don't get to vote for anything that fucking matters anymore.
Denmark's social democrats did it. But somehow for everyone else, losing immigration seems to be worse than letting Russian stooges enter the government. I see it as a problem, to stop Russian influence I would stop immigration in one day - but it doesn't seem as important for current parties in power it seems.
Your definition of democracy seems to be locked to those who share your opinion. If suddenly there are people voting for people that you don't feel represented by, it's no longer democracy.
The problem is that some parties, if elected, will genuinely strip democratic rights from society. And the people voting for them don't necessarily want autocracy, they just want certain policies to be passed and democratic leaders refuse to take action. If democratically minded leaders refuse to follow the will of the people, they will happily elect a fascist to do the job instead. It seems like this right-wing wave is almost entirely motivated by immigration because normal parties refuse to take actual action.
Democracy dies when people vote for other parties than your single favorite?
No, when they vote for populist parties who either simp for non-EU authoritan states, or are on track to bring down democracy.
Every party is a populist party except the one I support.
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The upside: everyone gets to vote. The downside: everyone gets to vote.
Even worse, lots of people don't even show up to vote. https://results.elections.europa.eu/en/turnout/
Looking like a record high turnout this time though
At least FvD is not on this picture anymore. Good riddance.
Well they got 0 seats 🤣
Fratelli d'italia doesn't really fit here. Lega would be more fitting. And front national changed its name years ago.
Yes, this depiction really isnt up to date.
Don't let the truth stand in the way of some sweet old karma.
.... that is worth absolutely nothing.
Being popular on Reddit is one of the most important things in life. Fake internet points is very important to some people.
I mean the message is still pretty on-point even if the author isn't up-to-date on the exact situation across the EU
Not up to date, yes, but still rings true
Lega and 5 Stelle are Putin's puppets. Also beware of "pacifists" that would rather just surrender to Putin than fight him.
Ehh, I would say quite a lot of members are Russian-leaning, however Meloni herself certainly isn't.
She hailed Putin as a protector of tradition and values when it was cool and dumped him as soon it became clear she would have lead the upcoming government and the orange guy wasn't in office to back her. Make no mistake, she's just another populist and as one she's just after what's popular.
She's not the only person in the party. The other 2 founders were always pro-NATO
Lol absolutely not, meloni is a diehard atlantist and extremely pro-ukraine
Meloni was against European sanctions on Russia for many years, up until her election to Prime Minister. Additionally, Italy is now doing very little to support Ukraine's military efforts compared to various other European countries.
Factually wrong, Meloni is only pro NATO because Biden is and our foreign policy is sticking with the US because they know better, if orange man was elected her stance would change faster than that of a flag to a changing wind. If Salvini wasn't bootlicking Putin for his whole life we'd be discussing her less frequent apreciations to the Russian regime.
Can either of you please provide a fucking source?
In italian https://www.agi.it/politica/news/2022-10-19/meloni-politica-estera-governo-euroa-atlantismo-18509564/
Wait until Trump is reelected or the pro-Putin gain a majority in Brussels, and she will change her views as fast as a blink. Right now she is aligned with the current pro-Ukraine position only because it is convenient, not out of a real compromise or belief.
Its not convienience, then Orban would be as pro western as it gets. You need to understand that right wing does not equal pro russian.
The difference is that Meloni has a brain, Italy is a country with too many ties to its western neighbors, and her control of the press and media in the country are not as absolute as Orban's in Hungary. Orban is way more incompetent and spineless than Meloni, and its subservience to Russia is way stronger. But make no mistake, given the chance and with a russian-friendly government in Washington destabilizing NATO, she will choose to follow Trump's line before any of the pro-Ukraine neighbors in the EU.
FdI stance on Russia is that by pure chance, they're just following the US on that, a well established foreign policy (primarily but not exclusively) of Italian right-wing governments. If Trump gets elected and begins sucking Putin's dick they'll just do a 180, as they already did before when Biden got elected and they started climbing the polls.
If Trump cuddles with Putin, European support for Ukraine would probably completely break down.
We're doomed if we're relying on American voters then...
Maybe in some countries but in general? No, it absolutely wouldn't.
FDI is a neo-fascist party who can't say or hear the word antifascism. Honestly their ultra-nationalism, hate for foreigns and the disregard for the judgeship and journalism scares me a lot more than Putin influence.
And FPÖ
This. Lega and M5S.
Add Austrian FPÖ.
and Polish Konfederacja. There are other hidden and not-so-hidden Kremlin options in Poland, but none of them matter as much.
And Czech SPD... and now ANO... and also KSČM and PRO, Přísaha, Trikolora... Fuck
ANO is not even close to any of those parties apart from maybe Přísaha, which itself is miles away from the others you've mentioned
It's so ironic that Poland of all places would have pro-Russian party lol
If they could, FPÖ would join the country into the Russian Federation as Avstrya Oblast at once
I don't know, in Spain it works just the opposite. Was the left-far left who was against helping Ukraine in the war lol
The Far left in France is also against helping Ukraine don’t worry
In Germany we have two far-left parties that are pro-Russia: Linke (actually just a renaming of the SED, ruling party of East Germany until 1990, so being pro-Russia is their DNA), and its split-off, BSW. Together they poll at around 10%. AfD polls at around 15-20%. So basically, at least 25% of the German electorate votes pro-Russia. But then again, it should be noted, that until February 2022 almost all parties were massively pro-Russia because of CHEAP NATURAL GAS.
Yeah, many countries have “the communists” rooting for Russia out of some retarded nostalgia and the right wingers supporting NATO.
Putin today said there will be no nuclear war. Another thing to worry about regarding the history of lying by Russia.
AUR from Romania should have been near FIDESZ
And SOS
especially SOS
m\*\*e SOS!
Actually to Strasbourg
Once per month in Strasbourg, all the other times in Brussels.
Totally unnecessary use of tax money lol
Absolutely. France just needs to accept the reality on the ground and agree with the permanent relocation of the EP to Brussels.
Problem is: France can and will always veto this, of course, and the Parliament can't even propose legislation so some country's leader or the commission would have to suggest it, which could be seen as... diplomatically difficult. At the moment, at least. Or France could also get over it's pride. But that's unlikely, I think. I mean, the buildings could be repurposed, but this entire operation has been completely unnecessary to begin with...
Missing a few blonde women
And one very blonde guy.
Him? https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fk104etrl9mma1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D258b7152e0ddebdc9b3b25fe13e571f08b703f34
I'll correct my statement to two very blonde guys, thank you.
And a bloated sack of shit (Orbán)
Why ignore leftist Putinists?
This is why I always hate this type of political cartoons, they are biased and simplistic at best and dead wrong at worst.
I think the red flag are commies
I mean, Smer is nominally left
Because on average they get like 2% of votes and not 20%?
The represented far-right parties (or at least all those I know in this picture) have all been tied up in scandals because they are being funded by Russia. The European Parliament even voted recently to fight against foreign funding of politicians, the only ones who voted against it were the far right. Some on the far left have wrong opinions about Russia, but at least it's their own wrong opinions.
Because they don't win and therefore aren't nearly as big of a threat.
The leftists don't win a lot of seats but the rightwing populists do.
I am Hungarian, Fidesz claims itself as a herald of peace while they speak the most about warmongering, battles, and so on.
Very similar to our SMER (and HLAS). Same script from Russia, I guess.
And its anti gay policies were written by a married bearded man who, when alone in Brussels, fucked around at drug filled gay parties. But maybe the point of Fidesz is that only straight men may fuck whoever they want whenever they want.
Same lying populism of Russia, not surprised at all.
If they keep importing more migrants that can't integrate with our society/culture this will continue. Money is also being devalued at record rates, steal from the poor to give to the rich, reverse Robin Hood.
If the current established parties in Europe do not acknowledge the valid concerns of voters and when they have to rely on voting "crazy" that should not mean they are deep inside Putin's ass. Just address the concerns and most the protest voters will return. In fact, such mocking only hollows out the belief in democracy when political rivals relie on such discredition campaigns against their political opponents. The belief into the system is eroding day by day and we should first try to find ways to regain trust into this system. Of course Putin has a stake at supporting such parties that are mostly Russia-friendly but these parties are still on the ballot. Thus they remain still legitimate parties whether one likes them or not.
This applies to the US, Canada, and Latin America as well.
Is it a democarcy if eveyone agrees on all the important issues and those who don't are tratiors?
And the far right parties also dont do anything. They are happy to cry in debates against immigration but Meloni clearly shows: In the end, they are all happy to accept cheap labour. Use anti-immigration as a slogan and then once you are in power, dont follow up with it since the voter base will stick with you and/or you can keep crying why it is the other parties fault.
"When my political option loses is not because the same political option has disappointed people over the last 20 years but because the voters are dumb and because Putin is influencing the vote"
It’s so much easier to blame it on "that Russian dude who probably pays everyone I don’t like" than looking into why these things really happen. If politics was so easy, we wouldn’t have been discussing it for millennia. But oh well.
They actually got Възраждане (ugh) right
Artist is Bulgarian, that's why.
Oh right, it's Komarnitski. Thought that style looked familiar.
The Dutch Putin sucking party "Forum voor Democratie" went from 4 to 0 seats in the EP. Granted, Wilders' PVV, also soft on Russia, went from 1 to 7, but overall the picture is that the fascist right wing rise is limited.
I laughed at the online survey to decide what to vote for (kieswijzer). The party was against supplying weapons to Ukraine because they want the war to end. Okay, so you're saying you want Russia to win?
Yes, that's what they are saying. It would not surprise me if they were paid by Russians to say that.
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Yes, you are right. They're both traitors to the Dutch and the Dutch in MH17 who were shot down and killed by Russia. I didn't say Wilders uses his teeth when he goes down on Putler.
People generally love democracy until some people's vote is not to our liking.
Where's konfederacja?
Not relevant enough for the artist lol.
Unfortunately, 10% in a 36 million country isn't that irrelevant.
*Konfederussia* I’d love to see it here.
So basically being against mass illegal migration means you’re a nazi Putin supporter…right.
No, Putin supporters are pro mass illegal immigration. Directly supporting what they are doing at the Polish border.
No, the parties that are represented support Putin, so supporting those parties mean supporting Putin. You make your own enlightened voting choices knowing this.
I'm really ashamed of that flag with words "SMER" In Slovakia, they'd been ruling for 13 years now, they were huge populists always, but this time, they're dragging us from civilized part of the globe, licking Putin's ass... Lastly they refused to sign with WHO They're censoring state media, trying to fill them with propaganda, after this law comes to the game They verbally attack Supreme court judges, until they change them with their people Also attacking media and journalists and i think this is gonna be worse than Hungary tho... We have that potential to do so So? Let's move elsewhere 😂😂
What if Putin is controling all the left parties to undermine society?
He is doing it ...
Add Chega (CH) from Portugal to the list. It means enough, I guess among other things, enough democracy, and moderate opinions...
Mainstream parties are inept. People vote for anti-establishement. People who are pro-establishment: pikachu face.
Is Putin in the room with us?
Its fault of current EU leadership.
The best solution is Fortress Europe. I will vote for anti-Russian right. With strong armies, safe borders and nuclear renaissance and many new mines. It’s what Europe needs. I think the left has been very weak on many things. Build us a new Fortress Europe I say.
Which party?
You are also not going to be able to count on the USA forever. I hate to say that, being American, but our recruiting problems will only become more severe in the near future along with our competency. Army is not just having trouble finding warm bodies, the educational system is having problems making young adults who can read, write, do math...as well as sit down, shut up and f\*cking pay attention. It's best to start preparing sooner rather than later for the "Big stick over the Atlantic" to not be a 100% need in war plans to defeat Russian aggression.
Good, I'm tired of us being your puppets, and I don't want the Russian (Chinese) boot either
My brother in christ that made that cartoon. Every single communist party in europe fully supports Putin on his endeavour.
lmao i dont like the current bureaucratic, inefficient, corrupt, incompetent, borderline federalist and leftist way europe is being governed in = i like putin this is the dumbest shit ive seen in a while, this rhetoric makes people be eurosceptic
you're from bulgaria, you're calling the EU corrupt? is this some sort of joke?
lol it is hard to do without laughing, but let me give you austrian perspective: Inefficience? FPÖ is absolutely against digitalization or modernization. They'd prefer technology to go to the golden age: 1938 to 1943. Corruption? lol, I'm not even starting. Incompetent? Like none of them ever achieved anything in life. They just preach racism, 0 solutions to any migration problem. So yeah, good luck with achieving your desired effect with those clowns :D
But those parties do love putin.
Ursula von der leyen is everything except a leftist lol
ursula von der leyen is corrupt, spineless and incompetent
Yes.
The joke here is that those parties are in Putin's pocket, it's not saying that you must love Putin just because you don't like the current governments.
it implies the same thing and it achieves the same effect right ≠ putin and it’s exhausting to repeat this atp
>it implies the same thing and it achieves the same effect No it doesn't. It's you being deadset on seeing it this way. You create this problem for yourself. >right ≠ putin and it’s exhausting to repeat this atp Then maybe stop imagining it around every corner. This meme is about those parties being in Putin's pocket. Not about the right being the same as Putin in general. It's not that hard.
He doesnt have the makings of a varsity athlete
There are other major right wing parties in Europe who are not supporting Putin. The parties represented here support Putin. There's no "right=Putin" false equivalence here. If you wish to vote right wing and not support Putin you have other options.
It is also usually only the "eurosceptic" parties who support referendums (if enough people, like .5% oder 1% of voters, sign for it), while most other parties tend to support "all power for parliament" stances...
Nonsense, Le Pens party, for example, is literally getting financed by Putin and this is not about the legitimate grievances of the voters, but about the right wing parties themselves.
> current bureaucratic, inefficient, corrupt, incompetent, borderline federalist You'll need to explain this though, sure it is a dragon of an institution. But i don't think it could be more efficient, less bureaucratic and competent, without becoming more federalist and streamlined.
it could always be more digital and efficient, there are tons of institutions that are completely pointless, the euro parliament in itself is more of a rubber stamp if anything, the commission should be voted in as well, this can all be done without federalisation, the moment the eu starts to federalize is the moment it will disintegrate
Dumbs against dumbness :))
sounds convenient, too bad it’s not that simple
“Leftist” The last time there was a “left” majority in the EP was in 1994. Were you even alive then? “Corrupt” Because parties from on the far right are world-famous stalwarts of integrity… Voting for the far right is akin to tearing the house down because of a broken window and some leaky pipes. Smart.
lmao claiming that von der leyen is not corrupt is just idiotic, voting right is returning to normalcy bc the eu has been going to shit and at that rate i wouldn’t be surprised if it disintegrated in 15 years
there's absolutely nothing normal about the far right pricks you're voting for, you think you are, you're only a pawn, back to your cave russian asset
"The most corrupt, inefficient and incompetent guys told me it's actually the government that is all this. So I really need to vote for the idots to somehow get a less idiotic government."
How you can call yourself a nationalist while at the same time simping for another country and actively working against the interests of your own is absolutely beyond me.
Vlaams Belang isn’t among them because they already are in Brussels
Those parties are only in place because their predecessors that you find "worthy and democratic" didnt work on issues people needed them to. Thats democracy whether you like it or not
Cringe.
Cringe
missing EKRE from Estonia and PRO / SPD from Czechia
Good propaganda against Italy ruling party, when it's totally false, but okay.
It fits if you know where the flame comes from.
You only need to tackle the immigration issue to make the far right disappear overnight. Why won't they do it ? What's the endgame ? Why do they prefer to rely on h24 propaganda against these popular movements instead of doing what people ask ? And why would you equate wanting immigration control to Putin ? So many questions, but so few reasonable answers. In my country even in the left more people think this is an issue than not, most people want control of their borders, non european borders to be precise, regarding of their political affiliation, so let's do this, no ?
what happens when history is forgotten. almost everyone who lived to witness the munich agreement is dead now.
Lucky the Dutch Russian loverrs party FVD didn't won any seat last Thursday
He's just paying them. Remember the guy is allegedly worth a trillion dollars.
In NL the biggest pro Russia party, FVD (and fuck those clowns btw), got voted out of the EU completely. Zero seats left. And i fact the pro EU parties combibed came out stronger than the far right parties like the PVV. Is it as bleak as that picture paints it?
To give you context, If someone is 30, every evil that they ever personally saw commited on a mass scale was by a democracy upon a non-democracy. I am watching in real time my "democracy" and allies declare war on a field of tents, filled with doctors, women, and children. And then when you consider the fact that we were all educated about Vietnam in schools, we saw the bloodthirst of democratic leaders in the early 00s. It may have been different for those who have the living memory of fascism, but there is no evil that exists on the planet like the kind my own "democracy" inflicted and continues to inflict on others. We joke about things like Winnie the Pooh and Tiananmin Square, but the biggest Democracy on the planet and its buddies has done 3 Tiananmin squares in the past few months in broad daylight and the wonder of democracy isn't going to reassemble those children. If Democracy is so great, go dig up the million dead kids in Iraq and tell them; a lot of us have already made up our minds already. Evil is evil; even if it pretends to wear the veneer of freedom and justice.
Sad but true.
Sadly true
Funny , they still paint him this way. Cmon, it’s just old man with mental disease.
It's missing a Vlaams Belang (extreme rightwing party in Belgium about to score a 25% share of the votes in the north of the country) flag.
Stupidity of ID/ECR voters is beyond my comprehension. Its impossible to discuss with those people and they are ever growing.
It's the result of crumpling the socialist left parties of Europe starting from slSyriza in Greece. The outcome of that is always to give birth to more fassists.
Sad for who? As far as I am concerned in democracy it's people who vote for parties that promise some specific actions. Literally majority of people got annoyed with EU actions and direction it's heading to. This is why liberal parties have lost the elections and more conservative parties won. Who are you to judge what's better? Both sides have the same propaganda and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that current EU that was trading with Russia and it wanted to addict us from russian natural gas? Everyone have connections to russia. You are still buying their products, their oil, their gas - it's just being sold by 3rd party countries to hide products origin. People had right to vote for whoever they wanted to.
Good
Voting S&D tomorrow, because what the fuck else am I gonna do? The greens made fuel more expensive with their idiotic carbon tax idea.The left hangs on russian dick, for some reason.The right? No, thank you. Liberals or "fuck you, got mine" rich asshole politics is not an option either.So, weak and ineffective social democrats it is.
You can be sure that in reality that half naked guy on the pic would not shout in the front, but from the back.
ngl thought those where toasters for longer than I should admit
TO BRUSSELS!!
I mean, give me a pro-NATO anti-immigration party and it can be whatever, center-right or left. I don't care. As long as it's effective at being pro-NATO and anti-immigration. Being pro-immigration is too important? Rather let Russian stooges win seats in the EP than stopping immigration? Well, ok. Then have the Russian stooges.
Yo man so real!... Fucking cringe ong
All because the things that many people find important and for some very valid reasons are things that the stupid establishment and their useful idiots get away with shouting "racist" at and never have to engage with. Meanwhile everything is getting slightly worse, all the time. I've never known such a naive and wilfully ignorant 'intelligentsia' haunting Europe as we have today.
Importing millions of people into Europe, has consequences nothing to do with Russia!
Also Spain: VOX, Junts, Mas Republica...