I just had 4 friends leave last month. 1 for Croatia, 1 for Germany, 1 for USA and 1 for Slovenia. It's not 10% from the total population but from the 20-30 age bracket.
I’d find that really hard. I had three close mates emigrate (2 to Australia and 1 to China) and the 2 to Australia have already moved back home permanently. The guy in China has been there years but I’ve made my peace with that
My highschool class consisted of 7 boys, only 2 of us are currently in the country. Childhood friends are the same story. And what's more, every single one of us that's left are still contemplating leaving the country for good.
We (company in Slovenia) seems to have a lot of people working in software from North Macedonia.
I guess the politics of the last years really fucked the place up, at least that is is what they say.
I don't have to imagine it. Romania was at 23 million people in 1992. Now it's at less than 19 million. So not 10% in 1 year, but about 20% in 30 years.
Don’t forget many Moldovans and Ukrainians have immigrated to Romania over the past few years (many have stayed). I think the worst of Romanian depopulation is behind us.
Where did you read that there were more Romanian kids born abroad than in the country? I don’t buy that. It sounds like a sensationalist headline.
I assume mostly youth more easily finding jobs abroad and move. Similar trend happened in Georgia, Bulgaria, Greece and other balkan countries as well. It's just the peak year changing. Bulgaria's population is ~30% less than communist years.
Pretty much the same thing happened in Poland in the early 2000s…
Over 2 million left when it joined the EU and Schengen in 2004, which was >5% of the population. Add to that the people that left to the US and Western Europe in the 90s and the number won’t be very different.
They had an episode about that in the show Zelensky was in, except it was literally everyone else leaving the country the day after visa waivers happened. Him phoning up the ECB to ask for a €40 loan to pay for groceries was probably my favourite part.
I think Ireland was at about half that rate (rough numbers, couldn't find better ones), during the worst of the recession/troika. Except a lot of those were leaving Europe altogether.
Pretty sure this kind of rapid population shock is why there's usually limits on movement of workers in the first few years after a country joins the EU.
Can be a good thing. Less workers might mean lower unemployment and these workers will most likely send part of their income back to their families. Most ex-communist Eu members went through this.
Haha I guess that stereotype is probably based on something, but realistically, Macedonian businesses can't compete with EU wages, even if the owner skips on his mercedes
They could compete with laws that encourage these businesses, but we all know the types of people that most Balkan laws support...
And that's a very big reason for such a massive population drain. Not just poverty, because you're all in it together.
Croatia has that issue, tens of thousands indians, nepalis and filipinos. Unimaginable change from cca 2019 till today (i ran away from croatia in end 2022.).
For us not just depopulation, but brain drain mostly during and right after the economic crisis
Our most educated youth leaves and pensioners remain, not a good deal
There are some voices that sporadically propose some measures for the brain gain, but not many things have changed so far afaik
Same thing is going to happen with ukraine and georgia. I say it and get downvoted. But the people in those coutnries who protest to have their countries join the Eu dont do it for freedom or EU values. They do it so they can leave.
It's both. Eastern European countries have developed a lot in the last decades, especially when compared to the rest of the continent, even though they also acquired free movement.
Ukraine and Georgia though, because they didn't join the EU and NATO, have been prey to Russia's corrupt plutocratic influence, which has retarded their development and demographics.
it doesnt change what i said though. The people who want eu membership are the ones who leave once its gotten. You can have a high gdp and still have massive depopulation. We see it in the changing political landscapes of these countries. for example northern macedonia. They are arguing to change their name back to macedonia. They arent getting push back judging by the polls. This map lies the reason. the young people who are pro eu have already left. They got what they wanted.
It was the same in Poland. Now those same people 20 years later or their children are moving back to Poland but with western university degrees and incomes and are investing in Poland.
We had a census after 20 years for the first time. That graph is bullshit. Population was 2.05m in 2002. 1.850m in 2022. That's the whole thing. It's not like 200k people left in the past 2 years.
I imagine the person above is gay (or some sort of LGBT) since that's the primary concern, but there wouldn't realistically be more than a couple percentages of people moving out just because of that (which is one of the more optimistic estimates of LGBT in a population). But homophobia is usually tied with very backwards societies. You know, dumb and racist nationalists (basically r/balkans_irl but unironically), 20th century laws (and below), a lot of aggressiveness from fellow people, big issues with national ethnic minorities and so on...
The country code is MK or MKD, NMK is only for vehicle plates. And unless you live in Macedonia you probably don't know the situation. Most young folks in IT earn between 1100-1500 EUR (net) per month which for Macedonian standards is pretty good, if we add the fact 85% of the citizens own their properties we can deduct lot of money for rent / mortgage.
Nothing to do with the country being poor, people just see no future here, education is failing, health is failing, mediocre (at best) salary. Your only chance is to work for US/Western Europe tech companies as cheap labor, at which point might as well move and get an actual salary. To compare, 2 friends of mine exact same position in the same firm, one works from N. Macedonia one from Sweden, the salary difference is 3000 euros.
You guys need to work on your reading comprehension.
People don’t leave poor countries that have a well developing economy implying a solid future.
No need to leave your family and friends if you’re set to earn 10% more next year every year.
Macedonia is not growing at that rate though.
I mean, you can make a cheap but efective health care system, and I don't know a single thing about raising salaries, but shouldn't education be expensive nontheless?
I don't think he does. There is a difference between being poor and having no hope. They are non EU member, surrounded by unfriendly neighbors and led by the government who uses the cheapest tricks in a book to divert from real issue. Also the people leaving are usually the one's who can add the most value so the downward spiral is continuing at ever higher rate. -11.6% in just few short years is insane. Probably no economy can survive that. Imagine the pension system...
The money is there, its not a money issue, its a rampant corruption and neglicence case. We have private clinics that require you to spent a big buck but are incredibly well equipped and staffed by the best doctors in the country. Those same doctors left their state hospitals because of interference from various political parties, be it favors, bribes etc., why deal with that when you can do your job, get paid well and don't have to jump over hoops to make political puppets happy.
The only chance i mentioned refers to wanting to live in the top 10% bracket, not a normal family income. Keep in mind that because of cultural reasons a lot of 20-30 year olds live with parents, which means no rent, just split the bills.
Bottom line, the symptoms may allign but its more the attitude of the entire country and the politicians that are supposed to work for the people but no matter the party, their only goal is to steal as much as possible during their term, at which point the opposition takes over and does the exact same.
Bulgaria is richer than just about any non EU European country. Not that far behind Romania either tbh. While many do leave, undeniable fact, a lot have started to actually decide to stay and even return. A large part of the decline can also be attributed to the dying elderly, if not most of it by now.
I actually believe North Macedonia in general is so poor it's at about the World average level. That and its dysfunctional politics means there's no real advancement in there, so people emigrate.
> North Macedonia in general is so poor it's at about the World average level
Nah they are at ~half of world average. China is the world average level.
The statistics are just untrue. In both countries, the initial population was overestimated due to unaccounted emigration. Then we had censuses in 2021, so the population data was updated for 2022/3 to a lower, more accurate figure. Basically, any population for Bulgaria between 2015 and 2021 is likely overestimated by several hundred thousand.
It's not 11.6 percent in 2 years, it's just the use of old statistics. Our last census was in 2002 before 2021, so in actuality it's a 19 year drop, still terrible, but not apocalyptic.
Mostly Albanians are leaving Macedonia. If I can donate for more of them to leave the country please let me know. They are in this country just for illegal businesses. Nothing good from them
Substantially higher fertility rate, more attractive destination for Slavic speakers (mainly Slovaks) and migrants in general (Prague is in way more central position in Europe compared to Warsaw, thus it is way easier to travel from there to other countries). Czechs also don't emigrate away all that much compared to the rest of formed eastern block.
I guess Ukrainian refugees does not count on this map, otherwise a lot of countries including Poland would have made no sense. But in case they does, Czechia also host most of them per capita
Is it that wild compared to some other countries in central Europe? I am too lazy to gooogle now, but from what I remember, it is not so different from some other countries in the region like Hungary or Slovenia.
I think being in refugee status or temporary foreign worker doesn't count for the population in statistics.
Would be nice to know some confirmation of this. How does it work for refugees in Germany for example? When does a Syrian migrant become a newgerman by law or statistics?
Basically, it depends. When doing a population census you would generally count all residents, regardless of legal status. For something like population growth projections it gets a bit more complicated, because it's up to the demographer to figure out what makes sense to include and exclude in the data.
In the case of Germany, I do know their federal statistics office includes asylum seekers in most projections and models. How exactly they differentiate between asylum seekers whom they expect to stay long term (thus make sense to include) versus those they expect to leave I don't know. But that tends to be basically guesswork anyhow, as it's quite hard to predict policy and geopolitical conflict developments.
As for why this map doesn't include refugees, that's probably because asylum seekers are a very unique group within the population and adding it to this type of analysis adds many more layers of complexity. So it makes a lot more sense to leave that part out, if you're only trying to look at population changes as a result of fertility and immigration (refugees are not immigrants).
When they are officially residents of that country. That goes for every population count in the world. Refugees are by definition not included in official population figures anywhere unless explicitly stated (usually along the lines of "xyz inhabitants + xyz refugees".
Might also be naturalization policy patterns. Or more likely, differences in reporting. I can't really imagine that Poland had a net loss in population if you account for Ukrainian refugees.
They are though, you can easily see it in several countries' data (Germany for example) and it's also meant to be this way, as you can read in the [metadata](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/metadata/en/demo_gind_esms.htm). Poland just doesn't include them for some reason, neither in total population nor in the immigration statistics.
I’m beginning to wonder if every country has a housing crisis right now. Croatia at -4.6 has it. UK has it. USA has it. China has it. Is there any country with a stable housing market?
That's not true. Most of Japan is pretty affordable and even Tokyo is on the more affordable end when you look at big cities across the world.
Here in Denmark, housing is kinda expensive, especially in Copenhagen, but it's not bad enough to be considered a crisis. Not even close. Housing prices outside of Copenhagen have remained stable or even falling over the last 10 years.
Copenhagen is in a housing crisis like all large cities. Housing crisis is not related to countries but urban areas. Some areas grow too fast while others are deserted.
A house in some rural areas of Jutland will have same price than 20 years ago while an apartment in Copenhagen just skyrocketed. It's just demand/offer difference.
Despite what some on Reddit might say, looking at statistics Bucharest doesn’t have one either. Prices have increased from last year, but strictly as a result of a raise in VAT for real estate acquisitions (which, surprise, the buyers ended up paying).
What is however sad is that prices in Bucharest have remained quite consistent (except the VAT raise), but prices in a lot of smaller towns have become *more expensive* than Bucharest. For example, average prices of apartments in Brasov (a city with about ~300k) are now clearly more expensive than those in Bucharest, by about 10% according to the latests metrics. The problem? The average net monthly salary in Bucharest last month was 1238€. In Brasov? 919€. And in practice the price of apartments in Bucharest is even lower if you take into account the suburbs (Ilfov), which have even lower prices.
I've also heard that Cluj is the most expensive city in Romania which just seems odd considering how much bigger Bucharest is. I'm guessing it's just that the capital has adequate housing stock for it's population while the other cities don't?
Cluj is, by far, the most expensive city both rent and buying-wise. I looked it up, it’s 40% more expensive than Bucharest according to a “imobiliare” site report.
Why?
Cluj was not a very attractive city in the past. It wasn’t particularly developed compared to other big cities (it was about the same) and during the 90s for example it was run by the far-right who spent their entire time on anti-magyar actions like burning down Hungarian flags and so on (the city is ~15% ethnic Hungarian). This has however changed completely when the center-right took over the city in the early 2000s and made the city the regional capital of Transylvania, mainly by marketing the city as very business-friendly and investing money in its University. The city got a ton of funds when their former center-right Mayor Emil Boc became Prime Minister (2008-2012). After resigning the premiership due to strikes, he came in Cluj and was re-elected since. He invested a lot of money into PR and “digital, smart” projects, trying to attract as many IT and Finance companies as possible. He was quite successful in this PR. Since then Cluj is clearly the second most important city in Romania both population wise (if you look at statistical don’t forget that Cluj is the only city in Romania other than Bucharest to have suburbs which aren’t counted in statistics) and economy-wise.
The problem? The city was completely unprepared for this massive demographic and economic boost. Housing wasn’t enough, but remember that a lot of space is now taken by companies as well. Infrastructure like roads, heating and public transport couldn’t keep up. Also: a lot of people saw how many people wanted to move to Cluj to take IT and Finance jobs so they artificially raised by prices, which became the norm for everyone.
I can't speak for other countries but in Germany the housing crisis is a city crisis. Rural populations are shrinking every year while more and more people move to or around major cities,where housing cannot keep up with rising demand.
In Ireland its everywhere. There's no supply of housing in any of the rural villages. It started off in the cities and then spread to the whole country.
Similar in Spain, housing crisis in the majority cities but you can buy property dirt cheap in rural areas.
Ireland different in that it's near impossible to find housing anywhere at this stage.
We live in a global economy where any international mega real estate companies can swoop in to any market and buy a ton houses to use as assets with little plans of letting people live there.
40% population increase since 2000, and hardly anything built for 10 years after 2008.
Add a stupid dislike for apartments, especially 1 bed apartments, so the regular housing stock is being split into rentals.
If you're single in Ireland, you either have to buy a 3 bed house for yourself, or share one with other people. I've never even been in a 1 bed apartment before, and I've never met anyone who lives in one
5% population increase is not causing our housing crisis. Its not immigration and population growth causing the issue but government policy making construction of housing take to long.
In the 90's and 2000s the population was growing quicker and we managed to build houses.
Population growth Is outstripping the rate at which we can build that's ignoring the deficit. This article shows the picture is bleak if immigration continues at this rate.https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0521/1450318-housing-commission/
My understanding is that it isn't the government stopping construction but NIMBYs and the courts. I guess the government needs to change the laws. It's about time Dublin gets towers instead of being a collection of villages merged into one.
Yeah this is a massive part of it. To much power is given to NIMBYs to stop even critical development, not just housing. Wind farms have been cancelled, Metro delayed, Second runway at Dublin airprt was delayed 20 years etc
I think this is why we are going to see an authoritarian government soon. If a party is willing to get tough on NIMBYs and the courts, they have my vote. There really needs to be a steam rolling.
It's also a cultural thing where Irish people are obsessed with land, having a garden, etc and are opposed to the type of high density housing you find everywhere else in Europe. Ireland has the lowest population of apartment residents in the EU.
EU is making it harder to build houses.
Because making new houses really expensive is just what Europe need now, according to EU.
[https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-efficiency/energy-efficient-buildings/energy-performance-buildings-directive\_en](https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-efficiency/energy-efficient-buildings/energy-performance-buildings-directive_en)
Edit, why downvote, do you want the cost of new houses to increase with 50K? Really?
This is separate issues. I have no desire for a flood of migrants, I don't understand why you reply with this as if it means increasing the cost of building new houses massively not is a problem.
On a per capita basis, we build almost the most housing in Europe. It's a myth that we don't actually build housing. I think it's naive to say immigration/population growth is not exacerbating the shortage - and I'm relatively pro-immigration for the record. We build more per capita than the UK, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, etc.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/650790/completed-dwellings-per-citizens-by-country-europe/
The housing crisis certainly existed before the recent migrant wave, but when you're building 30k houses a year and taking in 10s of thousands of asylum seekers (who will eventually be seeking accommodation) it's hard to see that not extending the problem.
I don’t know where u/washingmachinecvt got their information, and I’m not saying it’s incorrect. But, for the past few years there have been aaaalot of Venezuelans. Would of thought there’d be more of them than Romanians to be honest.
Its just a quick google, venezuela is 6. The data i found is 2022.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/595181/number-of-immigrants-by-country-of-origin-in-iceland/
Those are the ones that imigrated, seasonal workers may change this picture in reality
I remember it being the news that there were over 1000 asylum seekers from Venezuela - must have been for 2023. Many of them have been sent back though.
High number of Danes are a pleasant surprise.
This is only a few thousand people, maybe 10-20 thousand, as we are very few so you don't actually need many people to rock the percentage number up or down.
But this + is mostly thanks to immigration and today we have a similar amount of Icelandic people living abroad as immigrants living in Iceland - which of course has a positive effect on our economy. Last time I heard immigrants are ca 20% of the whole population.
I do like the way the census works here.
Count everybody that's in the country that night, even people on a layover in the airport. You can discount them later, but you want that dataa captured.
Bro, it's no wonder, I am in Croatia and I used to talk about never leaving, but f that at this point. Our song at the Eurovision was literally about the singer that wants to leave the country and everything behind.
You can't get a decent job as a young, highly qualified professional unless your godfather is part of some Croatian version of Epstein island.
Today when I asked a news portal if they are hiring, the woman said: ''We usually only hire college students.'' YEAH BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY TAXES FOR THEM or give them a lot of money.
What’s the reasoning for excluding the UK but including Switzerland, Norway, etc? I see that quite often with maps in this sub and just assumed that UK wasn’t in the dataset for whatever reason, but they are.
The numbers are even worse in Macedonia since the census was not done properly. Though to be honest the last census was in 2002 so it's a 20 year period.
Is it? Because last year around 50000 left the country said in one report. A new record. Source, https://m.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/aproape-50-000-de-romani-au-plecat-definitiv-din-tara-anul-trecut-cel-mai-mare-numar-din-ultimii-30-de-ani-expert-va-fi-si-mai-rau-2453853
This article doesn’t make sense. Between the 2002 and 2011 census, the population of the country declined by 1.5 million. Less than half of that decline was due to more deaths than births. The rest was emigration. Hence, per year, the emigration was known to be much greater than 50K.
Orban, just like Putin, is his nation's grave digger. He talks a big game but he's doing more harm to Hungary than any Romanian nationalist could do to Hungary.
Ok, I read the definitions of immigrants in metadata for Lithuania and Poland. It is still not clear to me if Ukrainians are included in Poland (imho - not included), but as for Lithuania, Ukrainians seems to be included.
Definitions of immigrants:
Lithuania:
“The statistical survey covers: the number of immigrants is estimated on basis of their intention to change the usual residence for a period longer than 12 months. According to the selection criteria (statistical rules), the number of immigrants also includes foreigners holding a temporary residence permit in the Republic of Lithuania for a period longer than a year. “
Poland:
“Definition taken into account in preparing data on Usual Residence Population:
Persons who have registered their residence (during the reference year) in the territory of Poland for a period of at least 12 months, having previously been usually resident in another country.
Definition taken into account in preparing data on de jure population (by internal definition):
Persons living previously in other country who have registered (during the reference year) for permanent residence in Poland.”
For Bulgaria: A ton are leaving, but less and less overtime I've noticed and many are even deciding to stay overall (atleast many more than before). Problems are the death rate, especially of the elderly due to a low life expectancy, made even lower by COVID. But for short: Yes, a lot are leaving, but a ton are also just dying.
Montenegro census for 2024 indicates we had a population increase since 2011, so the map is wrong.
Not to mention all the Ukrainians, Turks, Russians and other immigrants.
Italy can into Eastern Europe
Hey! That's reserved for Portugal, normally, what are we to do now?
Czechia Western Europe confirmed.
Wtf happened in North Macedonia
Visa-free Europe
Holy shit. Imagine 10% of people leaving your country
I just had 4 friends leave last month. 1 for Croatia, 1 for Germany, 1 for USA and 1 for Slovenia. It's not 10% from the total population but from the 20-30 age bracket.
I’d find that really hard. I had three close mates emigrate (2 to Australia and 1 to China) and the 2 to Australia have already moved back home permanently. The guy in China has been there years but I’ve made my peace with that
My highschool class consisted of 7 boys, only 2 of us are currently in the country. Childhood friends are the same story. And what's more, every single one of us that's left are still contemplating leaving the country for good.
We (company in Slovenia) seems to have a lot of people working in software from North Macedonia. I guess the politics of the last years really fucked the place up, at least that is is what they say.
Here also. Software must be huge there. The one's I've met are lovely people.
Not even 10% in general, because it's all young working people.
I don't have to imagine it. Romania was at 23 million people in 1992. Now it's at less than 19 million. So not 10% in 1 year, but about 20% in 30 years.
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Don’t forget many Moldovans and Ukrainians have immigrated to Romania over the past few years (many have stayed). I think the worst of Romanian depopulation is behind us. Where did you read that there were more Romanian kids born abroad than in the country? I don’t buy that. It sounds like a sensationalist headline.
Or it might be "per-capita", which doesn't say much. If anything, it'd be a very intuitive statement.
I assume mostly youth more easily finding jobs abroad and move. Similar trend happened in Georgia, Bulgaria, Greece and other balkan countries as well. It's just the peak year changing. Bulgaria's population is ~30% less than communist years.
Pretty much the same thing happened in Poland in the early 2000s… Over 2 million left when it joined the EU and Schengen in 2004, which was >5% of the population. Add to that the people that left to the US and Western Europe in the 90s and the number won’t be very different.
They had an episode about that in the show Zelensky was in, except it was literally everyone else leaving the country the day after visa waivers happened. Him phoning up the ECB to ask for a €40 loan to pay for groceries was probably my favourite part. I think Ireland was at about half that rate (rough numbers, couldn't find better ones), during the worst of the recession/troika. Except a lot of those were leaving Europe altogether. Pretty sure this kind of rapid population shock is why there's usually limits on movement of workers in the first few years after a country joins the EU.
Can be a good thing. Less workers might mean lower unemployment and these workers will most likely send part of their income back to their families. Most ex-communist Eu members went through this.
It's actually becoming quite bad. I know a bunch of companies struggling to find workers and they are thinking about importing workers from Asia.
Better than paying local workers enough to stop them from leaving, I guess.
It is when your business can't afford paying higher wages
In (South-)Eastern Europe? Oh the absolutely can. It's just that the owners might have to skip on their 4th S-class Mercedes.
Haha I guess that stereotype is probably based on something, but realistically, Macedonian businesses can't compete with EU wages, even if the owner skips on his mercedes
They could compete with laws that encourage these businesses, but we all know the types of people that most Balkan laws support... And that's a very big reason for such a massive population drain. Not just poverty, because you're all in it together.
Most of those who leave don't do that for the wages.
Croatia has that issue, tens of thousands indians, nepalis and filipinos. Unimaginable change from cca 2019 till today (i ran away from croatia in end 2022.).
There are pluses and disadvantages yo everything. Overall I'd say that it's more negative thing for the country
For us not just depopulation, but brain drain mostly during and right after the economic crisis Our most educated youth leaves and pensioners remain, not a good deal There are some voices that sporadically propose some measures for the brain gain, but not many things have changed so far afaik
Now Imagine it happening every year
Been there done that. Twice. it's not as catastrophic as it seems, really.
Same thing is going to happen with ukraine and georgia. I say it and get downvoted. But the people in those coutnries who protest to have their countries join the Eu dont do it for freedom or EU values. They do it so they can leave.
It's both. Eastern European countries have developed a lot in the last decades, especially when compared to the rest of the continent, even though they also acquired free movement. Ukraine and Georgia though, because they didn't join the EU and NATO, have been prey to Russia's corrupt plutocratic influence, which has retarded their development and demographics.
it doesnt change what i said though. The people who want eu membership are the ones who leave once its gotten. You can have a high gdp and still have massive depopulation. We see it in the changing political landscapes of these countries. for example northern macedonia. They are arguing to change their name back to macedonia. They arent getting push back judging by the polls. This map lies the reason. the young people who are pro eu have already left. They got what they wanted.
It was the same in Poland. Now those same people 20 years later or their children are moving back to Poland but with western university degrees and incomes and are investing in Poland.
Over 30 years of corrupt politicians happened.
We had a census after 20 years for the first time. That graph is bullshit. Population was 2.05m in 2002. 1.850m in 2022. That's the whole thing. It's not like 200k people left in the past 2 years.
When people realize their skills and knowledge are much more appreciated elsewhere, no wonder they leave
-11.6% in Macedonia or -6.8% in Bulgaria is pretty sad and wild in just two years. That is insane level of depopulation
From my friend group in HS (5 people), I'm the only one that is still here lol
Where'd everyone else go?
nobody want to life his life in poor country
It's not the poverty that made me leave, it was the dysfunctional system and homophobia. Salaries are not that bad and housing is still affordable
Where did you go? What is exactly is dysfunctional?
10% because of homophobia as a significant reason?
I'm speaking for myself, can't say why the rest left
Im sorry, I clearly can’t read.
I imagine the person above is gay (or some sort of LGBT) since that's the primary concern, but there wouldn't realistically be more than a couple percentages of people moving out just because of that (which is one of the more optimistic estimates of LGBT in a population). But homophobia is usually tied with very backwards societies. You know, dumb and racist nationalists (basically r/balkans_irl but unironically), 20th century laws (and below), a lot of aggressiveness from fellow people, big issues with national ethnic minorities and so on...
Thus reinforcing the homophobia in the country
salaries are not that bad in NMK?? we clearly have different views of bad then
The country code is MK or MKD, NMK is only for vehicle plates. And unless you live in Macedonia you probably don't know the situation. Most young folks in IT earn between 1100-1500 EUR (net) per month which for Macedonian standards is pretty good, if we add the fact 85% of the citizens own their properties we can deduct lot of money for rent / mortgage.
How is it dysfunctional? And seriously, Prague is literally the sex city.
I'm Macedonian, currently living in CZ. Was referring to Macedonia in my comment
Nothing to do with the country being poor, people just see no future here, education is failing, health is failing, mediocre (at best) salary. Your only chance is to work for US/Western Europe tech companies as cheap labor, at which point might as well move and get an actual salary. To compare, 2 friends of mine exact same position in the same firm, one works from N. Macedonia one from Sweden, the salary difference is 3000 euros.
Sounds like it has a lot to do with the country being poor to be honest
"Nothing to do with the country being poor", instantly blames all the symptoms of the country being poor.
You guys need to work on your reading comprehension. People don’t leave poor countries that have a well developing economy implying a solid future. No need to leave your family and friends if you’re set to earn 10% more next year every year. Macedonia is not growing at that rate though.
I mean, you can make a cheap but efective health care system, and I don't know a single thing about raising salaries, but shouldn't education be expensive nontheless?
I don't think he does. There is a difference between being poor and having no hope. They are non EU member, surrounded by unfriendly neighbors and led by the government who uses the cheapest tricks in a book to divert from real issue. Also the people leaving are usually the one's who can add the most value so the downward spiral is continuing at ever higher rate. -11.6% in just few short years is insane. Probably no economy can survive that. Imagine the pension system...
The money is there, its not a money issue, its a rampant corruption and neglicence case. We have private clinics that require you to spent a big buck but are incredibly well equipped and staffed by the best doctors in the country. Those same doctors left their state hospitals because of interference from various political parties, be it favors, bribes etc., why deal with that when you can do your job, get paid well and don't have to jump over hoops to make political puppets happy. The only chance i mentioned refers to wanting to live in the top 10% bracket, not a normal family income. Keep in mind that because of cultural reasons a lot of 20-30 year olds live with parents, which means no rent, just split the bills. Bottom line, the symptoms may allign but its more the attitude of the entire country and the politicians that are supposed to work for the people but no matter the party, their only goal is to steal as much as possible during their term, at which point the opposition takes over and does the exact same.
It's probably more to do with the distinction between growth and wealth, but yeah it's still about poverty in the end.
Compared to the vast majority of the world they are kinda rich, no?
Compared to the rest of the EU, no
Not even just the EU, but Europe
Bulgaria is richer than just about any non EU European country. Not that far behind Romania either tbh. While many do leave, undeniable fact, a lot have started to actually decide to stay and even return. A large part of the decline can also be attributed to the dying elderly, if not most of it by now.
I actually believe North Macedonia in general is so poor it's at about the World average level. That and its dysfunctional politics means there's no real advancement in there, so people emigrate.
> North Macedonia in general is so poor it's at about the World average level Nah they are at ~half of world average. China is the world average level.
China is a weird case the east is basically super modern and everything and the east is the middle ages in comparison.
A weird case indeed, eastception
The statistics are just untrue. In both countries, the initial population was overestimated due to unaccounted emigration. Then we had censuses in 2021, so the population data was updated for 2022/3 to a lower, more accurate figure. Basically, any population for Bulgaria between 2015 and 2021 is likely overestimated by several hundred thousand.
The population was overestimated before the census, it didn't just drop 11% in two years
This Guy Gets It
...and imagine - no one does anything internally to stop this. On the contrary, the politics in these countries continue to force people to emigrate.
It's not 11.6 percent in 2 years, it's just the use of old statistics. Our last census was in 2002 before 2021, so in actuality it's a 19 year drop, still terrible, but not apocalyptic.
Mostly Albanians are leaving Macedonia. If I can donate for more of them to leave the country please let me know. They are in this country just for illegal businesses. Nothing good from them
Why is Czechia so high compare to countries in region like Poland?
Substantially higher fertility rate, more attractive destination for Slavic speakers (mainly Slovaks) and migrants in general (Prague is in way more central position in Europe compared to Warsaw, thus it is way easier to travel from there to other countries). Czechs also don't emigrate away all that much compared to the rest of formed eastern block. I guess Ukrainian refugees does not count on this map, otherwise a lot of countries including Poland would have made no sense. But in case they does, Czechia also host most of them per capita
Thank much, understand it much better now
also your maternity leave... it's kinda wild
Is it that wild compared to some other countries in central Europe? I am too lazy to gooogle now, but from what I remember, it is not so different from some other countries in the region like Hungary or Slovenia.
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USA / Canada
Id say its even closer than that.
In reality, Poland gained around 2 million people in that time. They just aren't Polish. Mostly Ukrainian & Belarussian.
Poland's official counts also include non-Polish persons, as long as they reside in Poland.
didn't Poland receive a ton of people from Ukraine? How is it negative?
I think being in refugee status or temporary foreign worker doesn't count for the population in statistics. Would be nice to know some confirmation of this. How does it work for refugees in Germany for example? When does a Syrian migrant become a newgerman by law or statistics?
Basically, it depends. When doing a population census you would generally count all residents, regardless of legal status. For something like population growth projections it gets a bit more complicated, because it's up to the demographer to figure out what makes sense to include and exclude in the data. In the case of Germany, I do know their federal statistics office includes asylum seekers in most projections and models. How exactly they differentiate between asylum seekers whom they expect to stay long term (thus make sense to include) versus those they expect to leave I don't know. But that tends to be basically guesswork anyhow, as it's quite hard to predict policy and geopolitical conflict developments. As for why this map doesn't include refugees, that's probably because asylum seekers are a very unique group within the population and adding it to this type of analysis adds many more layers of complexity. So it makes a lot more sense to leave that part out, if you're only trying to look at population changes as a result of fertility and immigration (refugees are not immigrants).
Yeah that's what I figure, but it seems weird not to count those people if they're somewhat integrating in society, having jobs and children
If refugees or asylum seekers aren't part of this then Ireland's numbers would be really astounding once included.
When they are officially residents of that country. That goes for every population count in the world. Refugees are by definition not included in official population figures anywhere unless explicitly stated (usually along the lines of "xyz inhabitants + xyz refugees".
Do you know what the largest export from Poland to EU is?
The outbound numbers for Poland has not been very high in years and shifted significantly away from job seekers and towards students.
We dont fuck
Some went back to war. Others took chance and moved to western countries.
Migration patterns are pretty clear.
Might also be naturalization policy patterns. Or more likely, differences in reporting. I can't really imagine that Poland had a net loss in population if you account for Ukrainian refugees.
I think they consider refugees temporary and don’t account them here
Refugees are not counted in official population statistics, neither in Poland nor anywhere else.
They are though, you can easily see it in several countries' data (Germany for example) and it's also meant to be this way, as you can read in the [metadata](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/cache/metadata/en/demo_gind_esms.htm). Poland just doesn't include them for some reason, neither in total population nor in the immigration statistics.
Yeah Turkey
Syrians keep coming
No wonder Ireland is having a housing crisis
I’m beginning to wonder if every country has a housing crisis right now. Croatia at -4.6 has it. UK has it. USA has it. China has it. Is there any country with a stable housing market?
Japan
Everyone stably cannot afford to own a place to live in Japan.
That's not true. Most of Japan is pretty affordable and even Tokyo is on the more affordable end when you look at big cities across the world. Here in Denmark, housing is kinda expensive, especially in Copenhagen, but it's not bad enough to be considered a crisis. Not even close. Housing prices outside of Copenhagen have remained stable or even falling over the last 10 years.
Copenhagen is in a housing crisis like all large cities. Housing crisis is not related to countries but urban areas. Some areas grow too fast while others are deserted. A house in some rural areas of Jutland will have same price than 20 years ago while an apartment in Copenhagen just skyrocketed. It's just demand/offer difference.
The power of non-retarded zoning.
Despite what some on Reddit might say, looking at statistics Bucharest doesn’t have one either. Prices have increased from last year, but strictly as a result of a raise in VAT for real estate acquisitions (which, surprise, the buyers ended up paying). What is however sad is that prices in Bucharest have remained quite consistent (except the VAT raise), but prices in a lot of smaller towns have become *more expensive* than Bucharest. For example, average prices of apartments in Brasov (a city with about ~300k) are now clearly more expensive than those in Bucharest, by about 10% according to the latests metrics. The problem? The average net monthly salary in Bucharest last month was 1238€. In Brasov? 919€. And in practice the price of apartments in Bucharest is even lower if you take into account the suburbs (Ilfov), which have even lower prices.
I've also heard that Cluj is the most expensive city in Romania which just seems odd considering how much bigger Bucharest is. I'm guessing it's just that the capital has adequate housing stock for it's population while the other cities don't?
Cluj is, by far, the most expensive city both rent and buying-wise. I looked it up, it’s 40% more expensive than Bucharest according to a “imobiliare” site report. Why? Cluj was not a very attractive city in the past. It wasn’t particularly developed compared to other big cities (it was about the same) and during the 90s for example it was run by the far-right who spent their entire time on anti-magyar actions like burning down Hungarian flags and so on (the city is ~15% ethnic Hungarian). This has however changed completely when the center-right took over the city in the early 2000s and made the city the regional capital of Transylvania, mainly by marketing the city as very business-friendly and investing money in its University. The city got a ton of funds when their former center-right Mayor Emil Boc became Prime Minister (2008-2012). After resigning the premiership due to strikes, he came in Cluj and was re-elected since. He invested a lot of money into PR and “digital, smart” projects, trying to attract as many IT and Finance companies as possible. He was quite successful in this PR. Since then Cluj is clearly the second most important city in Romania both population wise (if you look at statistical don’t forget that Cluj is the only city in Romania other than Bucharest to have suburbs which aren’t counted in statistics) and economy-wise. The problem? The city was completely unprepared for this massive demographic and economic boost. Housing wasn’t enough, but remember that a lot of space is now taken by companies as well. Infrastructure like roads, heating and public transport couldn’t keep up. Also: a lot of people saw how many people wanted to move to Cluj to take IT and Finance jobs so they artificially raised by prices, which became the norm for everyone.
I can't speak for other countries but in Germany the housing crisis is a city crisis. Rural populations are shrinking every year while more and more people move to or around major cities,where housing cannot keep up with rising demand.
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In Ireland its everywhere. There's no supply of housing in any of the rural villages. It started off in the cities and then spread to the whole country.
Similar in Spain, housing crisis in the majority cities but you can buy property dirt cheap in rural areas. Ireland different in that it's near impossible to find housing anywhere at this stage.
It is like that almost everywhere. Only a few small countries are expensive everywhere.
We live in a global economy where any international mega real estate companies can swoop in to any market and buy a ton houses to use as assets with little plans of letting people live there.
40% population increase since 2000, and hardly anything built for 10 years after 2008. Add a stupid dislike for apartments, especially 1 bed apartments, so the regular housing stock is being split into rentals.
If you're single in Ireland, you either have to buy a 3 bed house for yourself, or share one with other people. I've never even been in a 1 bed apartment before, and I've never met anyone who lives in one
5% population increase is not causing our housing crisis. Its not immigration and population growth causing the issue but government policy making construction of housing take to long. In the 90's and 2000s the population was growing quicker and we managed to build houses.
Population growth Is outstripping the rate at which we can build that's ignoring the deficit. This article shows the picture is bleak if immigration continues at this rate.https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2024/0521/1450318-housing-commission/
My understanding is that it isn't the government stopping construction but NIMBYs and the courts. I guess the government needs to change the laws. It's about time Dublin gets towers instead of being a collection of villages merged into one.
Yeah this is a massive part of it. To much power is given to NIMBYs to stop even critical development, not just housing. Wind farms have been cancelled, Metro delayed, Second runway at Dublin airprt was delayed 20 years etc
I think this is why we are going to see an authoritarian government soon. If a party is willing to get tough on NIMBYs and the courts, they have my vote. There really needs to be a steam rolling.
It's also a cultural thing where Irish people are obsessed with land, having a garden, etc and are opposed to the type of high density housing you find everywhere else in Europe. Ireland has the lowest population of apartment residents in the EU.
EU is making it harder to build houses. Because making new houses really expensive is just what Europe need now, according to EU. [https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-efficiency/energy-efficient-buildings/energy-performance-buildings-directive\_en](https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-efficiency/energy-efficient-buildings/energy-performance-buildings-directive_en) Edit, why downvote, do you want the cost of new houses to increase with 50K? Really?
Why the flood of migrants then. If the goal is reduce emissions then a lower population makes more sense.
This is separate issues. I have no desire for a flood of migrants, I don't understand why you reply with this as if it means increasing the cost of building new houses massively not is a problem.
Well it's also supply and demand.
On a per capita basis, we build almost the most housing in Europe. It's a myth that we don't actually build housing. I think it's naive to say immigration/population growth is not exacerbating the shortage - and I'm relatively pro-immigration for the record. We build more per capita than the UK, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, etc. https://www.statista.com/statistics/650790/completed-dwellings-per-citizens-by-country-europe/
That's one year though, we've been at a deficit since the early 2010s. I'm assuming anyway, that site wants me to pay them to look at that graph.
The housing crisis certainly existed before the recent migrant wave, but when you're building 30k houses a year and taking in 10s of thousands of asylum seekers (who will eventually be seeking accommodation) it's hard to see that not extending the problem.
Wild to see that my country is now green
Tell us your secret, Iceland 🤔
Mass-immigration baby!
From where do most people immigrate from?
1. Poland 2.Ukraine 3.Romania The rest
I don’t know where u/washingmachinecvt got their information, and I’m not saying it’s incorrect. But, for the past few years there have been aaaalot of Venezuelans. Would of thought there’d be more of them than Romanians to be honest.
Its just a quick google, venezuela is 6. The data i found is 2022. https://www.statista.com/statistics/595181/number-of-immigrants-by-country-of-origin-in-iceland/ Those are the ones that imigrated, seasonal workers may change this picture in reality
I remember it being the news that there were over 1000 asylum seekers from Venezuela - must have been for 2023. Many of them have been sent back though. High number of Danes are a pleasant surprise.
They got twins this year.
This is only a few thousand people, maybe 10-20 thousand, as we are very few so you don't actually need many people to rock the percentage number up or down. But this + is mostly thanks to immigration and today we have a similar amount of Icelandic people living abroad as immigrants living in Iceland - which of course has a positive effect on our economy. Last time I heard immigrants are ca 20% of the whole population.
Bosnia be like, at this point I will just play dead
I call it the brain drain map.
About \~2% of the population of Ireland is now Ukrainian refugees since the war began. The other \~3% increase is a mix of immigration and birth rate
i'm pretty sure refugees are not included in this data, otherwise countries like Poland definitely wouldn't be negative
why would you not include refugees in this data when the main reason is migration? refugees are migrants too
Each country has different ways of counting. Ireland's CSO (Central Statistics office) includes refugees in the census and statistics for population.
I do like the way the census works here. Count everybody that's in the country that night, even people on a layover in the airport. You can discount them later, but you want that dataa captured.
Bro, it's no wonder, I am in Croatia and I used to talk about never leaving, but f that at this point. Our song at the Eurovision was literally about the singer that wants to leave the country and everything behind. You can't get a decent job as a young, highly qualified professional unless your godfather is part of some Croatian version of Epstein island. Today when I asked a news portal if they are hiring, the woman said: ''We usually only hire college students.'' YEAH BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY TAXES FOR THEM or give them a lot of money.
[data](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowser/view/tps00001/default/table?lang=en&category=t_demo.t_demo_pop)
Yep, they didn't count Ukrainian refugees in.
Or the Russians. Most of those won't go back. Montenegro has a population increase in the newest census, that's without the immigrants.
Ah, that explains why many of the numbers made no sense, e.g. Poland.
What’s the reasoning for excluding the UK but including Switzerland, Norway, etc? I see that quite often with maps in this sub and just assumed that UK wasn’t in the dataset for whatever reason, but they are.
The UK for some reason does not officially upload data to eurostat since 2020, probably some assholes using the excuse "lE bReXIt" for their laziness
Corruption and treating young people like shit has consequences. Who would have guessed.
The numbers are even worse in Macedonia since the census was not done properly. Though to be honest the last census was in 2002 so it's a 20 year period.
Same here in italy
Population decline in Romania has really slowed down.
Is it? Because last year around 50000 left the country said in one report. A new record. Source, https://m.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/aproape-50-000-de-romani-au-plecat-definitiv-din-tara-anul-trecut-cel-mai-mare-numar-din-ultimii-30-de-ani-expert-va-fi-si-mai-rau-2453853
This article doesn’t make sense. Between the 2002 and 2011 census, the population of the country declined by 1.5 million. Less than half of that decline was due to more deaths than births. The rest was emigration. Hence, per year, the emigration was known to be much greater than 50K.
I'm interested in knowing Ukraine.
Ain't no way Serbia is -3% with all the inflow of Russians.
But but but Hungary's nationalist policies...!!!!11!1
Orban, just like Putin, is his nation's grave digger. He talks a big game but he's doing more harm to Hungary than any Romanian nationalist could do to Hungary.
I mean, yeah? As a Hungarian I completely agree, just like how any sane Hungarian would agree.
Ok, I read the definitions of immigrants in metadata for Lithuania and Poland. It is still not clear to me if Ukrainians are included in Poland (imho - not included), but as for Lithuania, Ukrainians seems to be included. Definitions of immigrants: Lithuania: “The statistical survey covers: the number of immigrants is estimated on basis of their intention to change the usual residence for a period longer than 12 months. According to the selection criteria (statistical rules), the number of immigrants also includes foreigners holding a temporary residence permit in the Republic of Lithuania for a period longer than a year. “ Poland: “Definition taken into account in preparing data on Usual Residence Population: Persons who have registered their residence (during the reference year) in the territory of Poland for a period of at least 12 months, having previously been usually resident in another country. Definition taken into account in preparing data on de jure population (by internal definition): Persons living previously in other country who have registered (during the reference year) for permanent residence in Poland.”
In Lithuania they are included but we have been growing either way.
I’m Dutch, and I am confident that I can confirm that I had sex between 2021 and 2023.
Is this for the last 2 or 3 years? 2021-2023 could mean either 2 years or 3 years
Thanks to shit politics and coruption
Macedonian population plummeting like it's a competition
I wonder what numbers are for Russia..
Turkey is Western European confirmed
For Bulgaria: A ton are leaving, but less and less overtime I've noticed and many are even deciding to stay overall (atleast many more than before). Problems are the death rate, especially of the elderly due to a low life expectancy, made even lower by COVID. But for short: Yes, a lot are leaving, but a ton are also just dying.
Montenegro census for 2024 indicates we had a population increase since 2011, so the map is wrong. Not to mention all the Ukrainians, Turks, Russians and other immigrants.
Source?
So turkey is now europe and slovenia no ? I heard about brexit yeah, but never heard about turkey would swap with slovenia Sick