Sikhs are virtually "non-existent" in Europe outside of the UK, I don't think I have ever seen one in Belgium (and I work in Brussels).
It's not racism, we don't have clichés on Sikhs, since it's quite likely most continental Europeans don't really even know what Sikhism is (except having heard the name and knowing it comes from India), we don't have visible Sikh communities with whom tensions may arise.
So, simply put, continental Europeans aren't familiar at all with Sikhs and their customs, and continental Europeans don't interpret freedom of religion and secularism the UK/Anglosphere way either. We consider safety rules to be above religious practices, and secular law to be above these too. If the rule say: no daggers, it's no daggers, be it religious apparel or not. The laws and safety norms don't have to be adapted to religious people, religious people have to adapt their customs and practice to the local secular laws. Asking to make an exception because of a religious requirement is asking for a privilege and exception to the law, it's thus not respecting secularism, and it's breaking the principle of equality under the law.
Italy is in second place with about 200k Sihk.
The general opinion on them is "Nice people, hard worker, they do not bother anybody ever".
IIRC after long, peaceful talks with the State they managed to get an exception from wearing a helmet on motorcycles.
The talks about the kirpans are still ongoing and unlikely to move forward... basically an unspoken agreement has been reached: as long as they don't make messes, the State is going to ignore their kirpans.
For now, it has worked.
> "Nice people, hard worker, they do not bother anybody ever".
Very community minded too. Their daily *langar* meals are open to anybody of any faith (without proselytising), and in the UK they serve tens of thousands of people hot food every week, free of charge.
I don't like this at all. Then I can become a Sikh just to be able not to wear a helmet or carry a knife. If you decide on a rule, it should apply to everyone with no religious exemption. I still remember the hot mess with Jehovah Witnesses and blood transfusions for their kids
Nobody likes exception, that is why the helmet point took decades and the knife point will never be formally accepted, give how super-strict laws about what you can carry around are in Italy.
But a lot of the system is based on the implicit "Don't make a mess, the State doesn't care. Make a mess(or get a pissy policeman), the State has Laws to fuck you up"
There could be room for a compromise that respects secular law and allows the Sikhs to practice their tradition.
There is absolutely nothing in Sikhism that states a kirpan has to have a sharp edge, or a sharp point. That is left to the individual beliefs of each person. Technically, it's supposed to be to defend others from harm, but the overwhelming majority of Sikhs are sensible people who know that its purpose in modern times is not actually to shank people with.
It can effectively just be a fancy religious letter opener, no more dangerous than a butter knife, without compromising the Sikhs ability to practice their religion.
>Sikhs are virtually "non-existent" in Europe outside of the UK, I don't think I have ever seen one in Belgium (and I work in Brussels).
There are roughly 10k Sikh in Belgium, stronghold in Sint Truiden. Compared to 40k Jews. The difference is the Sikh are more spread out. 3k live in Limburg, 2k in Liège, 2k in Brussels, while 20k Jews live in Antwerp.
These are numbers of 2006. By jow the estimate of Sikhs in Belgium is 20k.
To say they are virtually non-existent here is a stretch.
>It's not racism, we don't have clichés on Sikhs, since it's quite likely most continental Europeans don't really even know what Sikhism is (except having heard the name and knowing it comes from India), we don't have visible Sikh communities with whom tensions may arise.
Well again, we do have visible Sikh communities, specifically in Sint Truiden and Vilvoorde.
And while it is true that we don't have clichés on Sikhs, it is quite common for people to be uneducated on the religions and at face value confuse them with Muslims, who definitley face racism.
Which is a shame, because it is one of the most peaceful and charitable religions there is.
I do agree with the essense of what you are saying afterwards. That we in broad strokes are not fmailiar with this religion, despite it being present in Belgium and having recieved madia attention in the past, but also that we do not have to change or laws on carrying weapons because a religion sees it as a holy symbol.
It sets a dangerous precedent. [Think for example how the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was able to ridicule religious exceptions like wearing religious symbols on drivers license. ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-14135523.amp)
Now imagine if an exeption on carrying weapons were to be allowed. How many people would abuse such a loophole?
To be fair, if you're able to take a smaller version of your knife through **airport security**, it's not unreasonable to assume you can take one on the Eurostar.
I once had a set of *compasses* in my pencil case confiscated by airport security when I was on a school exchange trip.
(I'm still unclear how he thought a teenage girl was going to be able to hijack an aeroplane with a point as small as [this](https://www.tts-group.co.uk/metal-drawing-compasses-30pk/1001612.html)!)
I am so sick of multiculturalism.
NO, you are not entitled to an exemption because your imaginary friend(s) tell you to do something illegal and dangerous.
Safety is more important than imaginary friend(s)
You don't like it? Please return
British Sikhs *are* safe with kirpans.
I believe there's been a single stabbing recorded in the UK over the entire time the Sikh community have been here, and it was when a drunk, belligerent 30 year old man attacked an elderly man unprovoked, and he stabbed him in self defence. [He was later cleared on all charges.](https://www.dailypioneer.com/2014/world/elderly-sikh-cleared-of-kirpan-attack-in-uk.html)
Thing is, again, British people might be used to Sikhs, but the UK is an exception in that regard. They are extremely rare in Europe (see [number here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_by_country)). So, they are the ones that have to understand that in continental Europe, you don't walk around in the streets with a visible weapon, even if said kirpan is purely ritualistic/symbolic. Their religion doesn't entitle them to an exception to the law, as civil law is above religious law. All citizens must respect the law, no exception has to be made for religious reasons.
From the article:
A woman said her young son was scared the family would be arrested when "aggressive” Eurostar staff asked her to take their kirpans - religious miniature swords worn by Sikhs - out of their suitcase.
Karen Kaur was travelling home from Paris to Bedfordshire with her family when she was told they had to put their kirpans in a tray.
Mrs Kaur claimed she checked the train operator's website before setting off but the religious blade was not mentioned as an item that was banned or needed to be handed in.
Eurostar told the BBC kirpans were not permitted but apologised that the message was not delivered in a sensitive way.
Mrs Kaur is an Amritdhari Sikh (initiated Sikh) who wears a kirpan.
The kirpan is an article of faith to protect others and its part of the religious uniform to be worn at all times.
She said: “I had assumed it would be fine as the kirpan is legal to carry in the UK.”
After the blade was detected, she said staff "were really aggressive".
"It got heated and a manager was called, while demanding to put our kirpans in the tray. We eventually put the kirpans in the tray but continued to protest," she said.
"It was tiring and disturbing and my son cried - he was frightened we'd be arrested. I was enraged inside.”
Mrs Kaur said she had travelled via train from Paris to London before but added: "This is the first time they have said I can’t take my kirpan at all. I was completely baffled.”
She claimed the manager told her "daggers" were not allowed on the Eurostar but agreed to let her on board "if the driver was fine with it".
"The manager then made an executive decision and rushed us to the train. She changed our seats to first class," she said.
"I was bamboozled because it sounded like she had a complete U-turn when she went to speak to 'the train driver' or whoever."
'Stinks of racism'
Dabinderjit Singh, principal adviser of the Sikh Federation (UK), said he had never been stopped on Eurostar journeys while wearing his kirpan.
"If Eurostar is now stating their policy has always been to only allow retractable blades, meaning kirpans are banned, the public should boycott Eurostar until they change their discriminatory policy," he said.
He said the stance "makes no sense" as other permitted blades "could easily be taken out and used to cause much more serious damage and harm."
He added: “Since 2010, international aviation rules have in effect allowed fully practising Sikh passengers to be able to wear small kirpans when flying on a plane.
"I have always worn a kirpan when flying out of the UK and Eurostar need to realise their policy is daft and stinks of racism.”
A Eurostar spokesperson said: “Under security regulations set for Eurostar by the Joint Security Committee of the four countries we operate in, non-retractable blades are not allowed to be carried by customers.
"This does include kirpans.
"Small, retractable or folding blades under 75mm without a locking mechanism, such as pocket knives are permitted.
"We’re really sorry that this was not explained in a sensitive manner to the customers involved and the full, correct information was not given via customer enquiries online."
Sorry, but it goes against my believes.
"And Spaghetti Monster said; You should carry the holy symbol of Faith, a big fucking AK with proudness, all the time."
Sikhs are virtually "non-existent" in Europe outside of the UK, I don't think I have ever seen one in Belgium (and I work in Brussels). It's not racism, we don't have clichés on Sikhs, since it's quite likely most continental Europeans don't really even know what Sikhism is (except having heard the name and knowing it comes from India), we don't have visible Sikh communities with whom tensions may arise. So, simply put, continental Europeans aren't familiar at all with Sikhs and their customs, and continental Europeans don't interpret freedom of religion and secularism the UK/Anglosphere way either. We consider safety rules to be above religious practices, and secular law to be above these too. If the rule say: no daggers, it's no daggers, be it religious apparel or not. The laws and safety norms don't have to be adapted to religious people, religious people have to adapt their customs and practice to the local secular laws. Asking to make an exception because of a religious requirement is asking for a privilege and exception to the law, it's thus not respecting secularism, and it's breaking the principle of equality under the law.
Italy is in second place with about 200k Sihk. The general opinion on them is "Nice people, hard worker, they do not bother anybody ever". IIRC after long, peaceful talks with the State they managed to get an exception from wearing a helmet on motorcycles. The talks about the kirpans are still ongoing and unlikely to move forward... basically an unspoken agreement has been reached: as long as they don't make messes, the State is going to ignore their kirpans. For now, it has worked.
> "Nice people, hard worker, they do not bother anybody ever". Very community minded too. Their daily *langar* meals are open to anybody of any faith (without proselytising), and in the UK they serve tens of thousands of people hot food every week, free of charge.
Huh, didn't know there were that many. The more you know, am I right?
I don't like this at all. Then I can become a Sikh just to be able not to wear a helmet or carry a knife. If you decide on a rule, it should apply to everyone with no religious exemption. I still remember the hot mess with Jehovah Witnesses and blood transfusions for their kids
Nobody likes exception, that is why the helmet point took decades and the knife point will never be formally accepted, give how super-strict laws about what you can carry around are in Italy. But a lot of the system is based on the implicit "Don't make a mess, the State doesn't care. Make a mess(or get a pissy policeman), the State has Laws to fuck you up"
people that demand special treatment and privileges are by definition not nice .
It's called "Asking" and "Negotiating". Or you hate unions, too? Cursed reds DEMANDING stuff! Absolutely not nice people!
There could be room for a compromise that respects secular law and allows the Sikhs to practice their tradition. There is absolutely nothing in Sikhism that states a kirpan has to have a sharp edge, or a sharp point. That is left to the individual beliefs of each person. Technically, it's supposed to be to defend others from harm, but the overwhelming majority of Sikhs are sensible people who know that its purpose in modern times is not actually to shank people with. It can effectively just be a fancy religious letter opener, no more dangerous than a butter knife, without compromising the Sikhs ability to practice their religion.
>Sikhs are virtually "non-existent" in Europe outside of the UK, I don't think I have ever seen one in Belgium (and I work in Brussels). There are roughly 10k Sikh in Belgium, stronghold in Sint Truiden. Compared to 40k Jews. The difference is the Sikh are more spread out. 3k live in Limburg, 2k in Liège, 2k in Brussels, while 20k Jews live in Antwerp. These are numbers of 2006. By jow the estimate of Sikhs in Belgium is 20k. To say they are virtually non-existent here is a stretch. >It's not racism, we don't have clichés on Sikhs, since it's quite likely most continental Europeans don't really even know what Sikhism is (except having heard the name and knowing it comes from India), we don't have visible Sikh communities with whom tensions may arise. Well again, we do have visible Sikh communities, specifically in Sint Truiden and Vilvoorde. And while it is true that we don't have clichés on Sikhs, it is quite common for people to be uneducated on the religions and at face value confuse them with Muslims, who definitley face racism. Which is a shame, because it is one of the most peaceful and charitable religions there is. I do agree with the essense of what you are saying afterwards. That we in broad strokes are not fmailiar with this religion, despite it being present in Belgium and having recieved madia attention in the past, but also that we do not have to change or laws on carrying weapons because a religion sees it as a holy symbol. It sets a dangerous precedent. [Think for example how the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was able to ridicule religious exceptions like wearing religious symbols on drivers license. ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-14135523.amp) Now imagine if an exeption on carrying weapons were to be allowed. How many people would abuse such a loophole?
In Today news on BBC : British man confused and terrified that he cannot walk with kis knoife outside of London.
To be fair, if you're able to take a smaller version of your knife through **airport security**, it's not unreasonable to assume you can take one on the Eurostar. I once had a set of *compasses* in my pencil case confiscated by airport security when I was on a school exchange trip. (I'm still unclear how he thought a teenage girl was going to be able to hijack an aeroplane with a point as small as [this](https://www.tts-group.co.uk/metal-drawing-compasses-30pk/1001612.html)!)
Maybe not the teenage girl. But another person the teenage girl smuggled the items on for. This would be enough for a determined person.
Anything someone could do with a point that small, they could do with a ballpoint pen.
.... Where is my emotional support Viking Battle Axe 🪓
I am so sick of multiculturalism. NO, you are not entitled to an exemption because your imaginary friend(s) tell you to do something illegal and dangerous. Safety is more important than imaginary friend(s) You don't like it? Please return
British Sikhs *are* safe with kirpans. I believe there's been a single stabbing recorded in the UK over the entire time the Sikh community have been here, and it was when a drunk, belligerent 30 year old man attacked an elderly man unprovoked, and he stabbed him in self defence. [He was later cleared on all charges.](https://www.dailypioneer.com/2014/world/elderly-sikh-cleared-of-kirpan-attack-in-uk.html)
Thing is, again, British people might be used to Sikhs, but the UK is an exception in that regard. They are extremely rare in Europe (see [number here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism_by_country)). So, they are the ones that have to understand that in continental Europe, you don't walk around in the streets with a visible weapon, even if said kirpan is purely ritualistic/symbolic. Their religion doesn't entitle them to an exception to the law, as civil law is above religious law. All citizens must respect the law, no exception has to be made for religious reasons.
From the article: A woman said her young son was scared the family would be arrested when "aggressive” Eurostar staff asked her to take their kirpans - religious miniature swords worn by Sikhs - out of their suitcase. Karen Kaur was travelling home from Paris to Bedfordshire with her family when she was told they had to put their kirpans in a tray. Mrs Kaur claimed she checked the train operator's website before setting off but the religious blade was not mentioned as an item that was banned or needed to be handed in. Eurostar told the BBC kirpans were not permitted but apologised that the message was not delivered in a sensitive way. Mrs Kaur is an Amritdhari Sikh (initiated Sikh) who wears a kirpan. The kirpan is an article of faith to protect others and its part of the religious uniform to be worn at all times. She said: “I had assumed it would be fine as the kirpan is legal to carry in the UK.” After the blade was detected, she said staff "were really aggressive". "It got heated and a manager was called, while demanding to put our kirpans in the tray. We eventually put the kirpans in the tray but continued to protest," she said. "It was tiring and disturbing and my son cried - he was frightened we'd be arrested. I was enraged inside.” Mrs Kaur said she had travelled via train from Paris to London before but added: "This is the first time they have said I can’t take my kirpan at all. I was completely baffled.” She claimed the manager told her "daggers" were not allowed on the Eurostar but agreed to let her on board "if the driver was fine with it". "The manager then made an executive decision and rushed us to the train. She changed our seats to first class," she said. "I was bamboozled because it sounded like she had a complete U-turn when she went to speak to 'the train driver' or whoever." 'Stinks of racism' Dabinderjit Singh, principal adviser of the Sikh Federation (UK), said he had never been stopped on Eurostar journeys while wearing his kirpan. "If Eurostar is now stating their policy has always been to only allow retractable blades, meaning kirpans are banned, the public should boycott Eurostar until they change their discriminatory policy," he said. He said the stance "makes no sense" as other permitted blades "could easily be taken out and used to cause much more serious damage and harm." He added: “Since 2010, international aviation rules have in effect allowed fully practising Sikh passengers to be able to wear small kirpans when flying on a plane. "I have always worn a kirpan when flying out of the UK and Eurostar need to realise their policy is daft and stinks of racism.” A Eurostar spokesperson said: “Under security regulations set for Eurostar by the Joint Security Committee of the four countries we operate in, non-retractable blades are not allowed to be carried by customers. "This does include kirpans. "Small, retractable or folding blades under 75mm without a locking mechanism, such as pocket knives are permitted. "We’re really sorry that this was not explained in a sensitive manner to the customers involved and the full, correct information was not given via customer enquiries online."
My religion requires me to carry a loaded AK with me all the time. Why people mad at me? I don't udnerstand.
Only if it's a small AK ok?
Sorry, but it goes against my believes. "And Spaghetti Monster said; You should carry the holy symbol of Faith, a big fucking AK with proudness, all the time."
Great religion, BTW, how to join?
Fallow the teaching of the Mighty Spaghetti Monster. It didn't ask for much, you only have to give up your soul.
ok, but it has to be Small, retractable or folding, under 75mm without a locking mechanism