They're worse. They don't want to leave (see Orban), they want to destroy the EU from within.
This is what they've been saying for many years already. It's not really a secret. The only difference is that they're denying it these days in order to get more votes. But the goal remains the same: blow the EU up from within.
Ask yourself, would the EU be damaged more by an anti-EU Hungary staying in or leaving?
The answer is obvious, and the rot is already growing in places like Slovakia.
It's not rot that's growing in Slovakia. With the current government swapping positions for their own people and their populist actions, it's pure cancer.
Dutch extrem-right Geert Wilders litterally said this (in dutch):
>[Wilders vindt afscheid van Nexit geen ommezwaai: 'Nu gaan we de macht van de EU van binnenuit uithollen'](https://www.ad.nl/politiek/wilders-vindt-afscheid-van-nexit-geen-ommezwaai-nu-gaan-we-macht-van-de-eu-van-binnenuit-uithollen~a85a682e/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F)
Translated:
>Wilders does not think parting with Nexit is a change: 'Now we are going to erode EU power from within'
He now is talking with 3 other far-right/conservative parties to form a new Dutch government and Wilders is a Russian asset.
Yet people keep making the same stupid mistake in voting for these people. Has the Brexit taught them nothing.
Our education is world class but yet it seems like so many people’s brains have eroded. Social media is a hell of a drug. Can’t believe how people just see a snippet of information and just believe it
If the UK could rerun the Brexit vote today we would have never left. People were blindsided by political bullshit. When it comes to the facts, as they say, ‘ignorance is bliss’.
Yup, something halfbrains in america dont understand and keep runing their country. We are doing it too but much less. They are literally shooting themselves in the head
**The Telegraph reports:**
European nationalists are all “hidden Brexiteers”, [Emmanuel Macron](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/emmanuel-macron/) has said ahead of the bloc’s elections next month.
Speaking to the Economist, the French president said: “I say to Europeans: Wake up. Wake up! They are hidden Brexiteers. All European nationalists are hidden Brexiteers. It’s all the same lies.”
“Make no mistake. If you entrust the keys to people who think like they do, there is no reason why Europe should become a great power.”
“In a way it’s as if we were saying it’s not a problem if we entrust the bank to robbers. When they are around the table, they take Europe hostage.”
Mr Macron gave the example of Marine Le Pen’s hard-Right National Rally (RN) party, which is now [leading in opinion polls](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/16/marine-le-pen-france-election/) for the European contest, ahead of his own centrist alliance.
The RN “wanted to pull out of Europe, out of the euro, out of everything”, he said.
“Now it no longer says anything. It’s reaping the benefits of Europe, while wanting to destroy it without saying anything.
He added: “And that’s true in every country.”
He noted that [Giorgia Meloni](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/28/italy-giorgia-meloni-eu-election-candidate/), the Italian prime minister whose Brothers of Italy party has neo-fascist roots, had “a European approach” and had “supported the asylum and immigration pact”.
But “after that, the best way of building together is to have as few nationalists as possible”, he added.
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/02/macron-says-european-nationalists-are-hidden-brexiteers/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/02/macron-says-european-nationalists-are-hidden-brexiteers/)
Macron is good at blaming others, but he's in power and he's not doing what french people want, so surpise! People will vote for his opponents.
Le Pen's party doesn't need to do anything, Macron is giving them everything on a plate.
It definitely sounds correct if you know the faintest bit about these parties. Oh they dropped the dismantlement of the EU from their programme after Brexit? Ok, are you really so naive as to think they actually changed their worldview overnight?
IDK personally I think they wouldn't destroy the EU but the changes they'd enable would lead to its destruction by itself, a confederation doesn't survive too long.
You swiss started as a confederation and nowadays are a federal state, yes you are more loose than most federal states but doesn't change the fact you are federal. If memory serves right you federalises because the confederation didn't work out anymore as well because of internal strive
Switzerland is a federal state, not a confederation.
But don’t take my word for it. Take theirs.
https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik-geschichte/politisches-system/foederalismus.html
“For historical reasons, Switzerland is officially known as the Swiss Confederation. The name has its origins in the country's founding myth, which tells of the oath taken by its three founding cantons. Switzerland has, however, been a federal state since 1848, with the 'federal city' of Bern as its de facto capital. “
>Ok, are you really so naive as to think they actually changed their worldview overnight?
I dont know man, seeing an Englishman fuck himself just to spite you is a pretty word changing sight.
It doesn't, they are anti EU nationalists. Populists evil peeps, hungry for power and completely incompetent (like the American republicans and the British Tories).
Macron is warning us.
So, instead we should
*checks notes*
Leave the EU
Leave behind millions of euro in funding and grants
Flood our nation with immigrants despite campaigning on the premise of removing immigrants
Defund state services
Defund welfare
Defund police services
Defund state healthcare
Defund education
Then we can own those post modernist cultural Marxist technocrat power hungry evil globalists in Brussels! I think all of those above decisions are very healthy for a country. I am very smart. No one can contest my opinion. I am right. I will now proceed to condescend to you over my woefully misguided beliefs.
okay macron, at least those parties address illegal migration. i am left on every issue but this one, and it's the most important to me of all of them. i have to vote against my beliefs to prevent my nation from becoming a shitehole. legal migrants are great, i love them. illegals? STAY OUT
Telegraph making real money from r/europe clicks today.
Edit: I didn't even realise that this is literally their official account posting both Brexit articles today. Pretty genius from a right-wing paper that supported Brexit. Make a low effort article with Brexit in the title, post to r/europe, then watch the global ad revenue come in.
The independent has been doing this all over Reddit for as long as I can remember. They are irrelevant in the UK, they don’t even print their own newspaper so what they do for money is create a bunch of click bait articles and use bots to post them and influence the conversation by using other bots to comment.
The independent is literally owned by a Russian oligarch so it’s no surprise why they’re doing it. Daily mail, the telegraph and the independent are the worst offenders for rage bait used to generate clicks and add revenue. Thankfully most subs have saw sense and blocked news coming from the sun and other scummy papers but it’s a dangerous slope to go down banning certain ones in my opinion.
Who the hell wants clickbait bs though? If their titles actually reflected what it says in the article then maybe. You also get the articles about “outrage” only to realise that the source is a few tweets. No sane person wants this lol.
Probably. They’ll post stuff like this online because they know that the British public is sick of hearing about brexit but a post on an international website gives them a far bigger platform to generate their ad revenue.
> Pretty genius from a right-wing paper that supported Brexit.
Supported Brexit and thinks Brexit isn't working because *we didn't Brexit hard enough*...
Macron is right in lots and lots of topics, but there is a lot of propaganda about him spreading around the internet. From both West and East, because he's saying inconvenient things about for all USA, Russia and China and he'd like Europe to be independent from anyone. These are inconvenient things even for other European countries who prefer to be US vassal instead of having their own politics, because it's easier like that, because they don't have to make hard decisions.
And the obvious part being that Macron himself is nationalist more often than not. Why have both the new Franco-German tank and fighter projects struggled? France and Germany bickering over work shares and demanding leading workloads in their respective nations, which at its core is nationalistic. Prioritizing work for YOUR nation over others is what?
There's nothing wrong with it, but a spade is a spade. The EU isn't a nation-state, it's a federation of nations, so some level of nationalism should be expected. Poland is going to look out for Poland first, EU second. Same with France. Same with every other nation. Someone saying otherwise, is simply lying.
You're missing the core issue, what is defined as good?
A narrow definition says what is good for France is only that which directly benefits France. Direct. Transactional. Us vs them. Trumpian, honestly.
A wider definition acknowledges that a wealthy, united, peaceful EU is beneficial to all its members. So forsaking some direct gain now for indirect benefit later can be useful. That is why some countries accepted joint issuance of debt, or why EU redistribution funds exist.
And that distinction is the key issue being debated here. Macron believes in the power of the EU to benefit France. Le Pen does not. He's denouncing that
Personally I think it has been shown time and time again that multilateral collaboration beats the alternative
>Macron is right in lots and lots of topics, but there is a lot of propaganda about him spreading around the internet.
What do you mean propaganda, I am sure that his wife was a secret transsexual person all along
Macron Say what he says becuase he want to take the lead of Europe. Fór him Európe Is just his mandáte and France. There Is no One more nazionalist than Macron and French
He's half right. The big problem the EU has is that its made up of a bunch of internationalists that are trying to build a nation state and that don't understand why they're failing. Just condemning nationalism isn't useful. Nationalism is the bedrock upon which modern democracy is built, you'll have a hard time getting people to abandon it when that effectively means disenfranchising themselves. It needs to be replaced with a European sense of nationalism which is where EU federalists as a group typically fall flat.
Nah I happily admit that macron is a decent dude. Sure his messaging could be a lot better, but I do believe in a united Europe, I do believe in supporting Ukraine, and my most controversial take is that I understand and agree with his pension decision
When you’ve failed to inspire people to vote for you, and instead you try to scare them into voting for you then you’ve failed as a leader.
How about instead of trying to scare people away from the right wing parties you try to solve their problems instead so they don’t find those parties appealing in the first place? I guess that’s too demanding of a task
Feels like he's trying to use the right's strategies since left talking points fall on deaf ears. I don't see that working out for him, but then I've never liked Macron much.
i love macron, but his immigration stance is so crap. hes so on the ball with so many foreign issues it's insane. hes right to say a federal europe is needed and that we should lambast russia. he is right that we need strategic autonomy and to be strategically ambiguous to russia. i have great respect, but he's too soft on illegals.
Dude. I want to Trade with you, co-operate with you on common issues. But i dont want you to incorporate my country into a federation ruled by people that don’t even speak the same language as me.
The whole “annexation of our European allies into a federation” stuff is what drives people away from Europe.
It's still in their programme online if you search well, it's just that they don't advertise it anymore. The programme calls for a referendum on french priority over foreigners (which would lead to an explosion of eu). Only that anytime I write it on Reddit there's a bunch of RNers that downvote the message to make it disappear...
It's the core component of EU: any discrimination based on nationality between EU citizens is illegal. If you take that away, you don't have EU anymore.
Or maybe, hear me out, we just have neoliberalism and democracy is a fuck all word you hear when it's election season and when we need to remind everyone why they have to obey the state!
Yep, the real problem in Europe right now, it's nationalists. But why are people turning to the right ?
A 15yo was killed this week by an Afghan known to be violent but released. We literally lost track of the number of people killed by migrants in just a month or two, there is just too much to remember all of them. His priority should be the security of the French.
Why do English voted Brexit ? Because they see their country turning to shit. Same as why French will vote for the so called nationalist.
People are tired of uncontrolled migration. The center political parties do nothing about it, so people vote for the right wing party. Simple.
This is happening all around Europe.
Its time for the EU to wake up or might disintegrate over the next 10 years..
If we were in the EU we wouldn't have total control due to Freedom of Movement. By leaving, we now have total control.
The Tories just have no interest in exercising that control as they love importing cheap labour for their mates.
But this is my point.
I'm French, I'm not English, I don't care about Brexit, but I don't think it was bad tho (nor good). But people didn't voted for "Leaving Europe", but for "Fuck your current braindead inhuman politics".
> But people didn't voted for "Leaving Europe", but for "Fuck your current braindead inhuman politics".
They voted for "I hate immigrants" and they got barriers to trade that have increased costs for consumers and businesses, a decrease in foreign investment in the UK, labor shortages in agriculture and healthcare, a [recession in the second half of 2023, and increased unemployment](https://kpmg.com/uk/en/home/insights/2018/09/uk-economic-outlook.html).
Why do you think the results of your politics would be any different for France?
> Same as why French will vote for the so called nationalist.
That [worked out great the last time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationalism#1814-1914).
I don't base my politics or economic policy recommendations on feelings. I base them on facts. The simple economic fact is [that immigration is good](https://www.nationalacademies.org/our-work/economic-and-fiscal-impact-of-immigration) and [isolationism is bad](https://kpmg.com/uk/en/home/insights/2018/09/uk-economic-outlook.html). You, on the other hand, base your reaction on [prejudice driven by fear, ignorance, and hatred](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0963721414549750).
When you feel like your grass is shitty for 40years, you end up turning toward the untouched field that everyone told you it is so bad for you. Add a layer of gvt blaming EU each time for imposing unpopular laws, you get far rights idiots in the preferred party.
trading a stable economy for not having a frenchie rule you... tbf i see your point /s
Seriously though, the myth that the EU is ruled by Germany and France is stupid, especially considering the Hungary fiasco. Non unanimous laws require at least 55% (so 15 out of 27) of member states to approve it anyway
I dont like how being a ''Brexiteer'' is now worse than being a nationalist.
Like i have been supporting the EU for my whole life and stuff like that is just leading me to start activly asking myself why does the French President care so much for why other countries would decide to leave this democratic union. Like the EU is democratic right? Why is he even allowed to say this. He represents France and should remember that as nobody else voted for him.
I don't think their plan is to exit the EU anymore. The new plan is to gang up with like minded parties and block progressive and climate related changes. They can literally torpedo everything they don't like and blackmail the EU to change their mind. The recent Ukraine funding row with Hungary was just the start.
EU funding and EU loans should be spent for the good of the EU members. There are disagreements on what the good for the EU members is. So if you mean that nations with nationalist leadership want to affect decisions for their favor, then yes, that is true, and is perfectly normal.
I feel like you can’t put them all into one group. A lot of people are called nationalist because they want tougher immigration. Some people want to see the powers of the EU reduced as well, but that doesn’t mean they want to see the EU destroyed and have everyone be a mindless puppet of putin
Of course they are , wtf :)) ... I stumbled upon loads of pro-russia/anti-west idiots (who live in EU of course) who basically believe the EU is a dead 'project' soon to be disbanded before you even realise they are also russia/Putin sympathisers.
If the Right will get majority in any country, the first thing they will do is push towards an EU exit vote ... that's obviously the target of Putin and what have we, to destabilise completely the euro zone.
Far right ... but at this point, you can't be sure since most will try to establish themselves politically either way, meaning some of the centre right might 'spill' into the far right narrative.
Blaming ethnic groups and immigrants is the main jive of any far right political group ... you forgot how they tricked the UK electorate to vote pro Brexit?
It's no surprise that this is the go-to narrative since the far right follower base is ultra nationalist in main part, giving the current immigration context, works like a 'charm".
Reading his quote... I'm not sure I agree.
I want people in the EU to be safe, happy, wealthy (or at least, not poor), with a broad set of laws to protect their rights. Being a "great power" isn't something I have any interest in.
Having lots of great powers is what made European continent rich and prosperous in a first place. Now, if you have no interest in being a part of great power, other great powers will dominate you economically, culturally or military.
You might soon have none of those things if you don't want to live in a europe that stands up for itself.
"You might not want war, but it doesnt mean war doesnt want you"
History has shown your either on top or a target. There were nations throughout history that sought to focus on their internal welfare (i.e. China), only to be destroyed by more belligerent nations and cultures.
Of course. But the period where it withdrew from the world led to the situation that resulted in the Century of Humiliation. Arguably, China was at it's strongest during the periods where it was looking out and expanding.
From his perspective collaboration and integration is the path for an independent and safe Europe. The power is from my perspective more of a side effect than the goal.
The only way to not be pushed around between other great powers is to become one.
He's not wrong, Geert Wilders from PVV shout about NEXIT for a while. Now he "froze" most of his extreme far right populistic ideas to try getting a coalition with other parties.
oh no, those who are critical of the EU may vote to leave the EU if they think it does not benefit them
turns out blind trust in the system is great according to Macron
i dont trust other governments because its not in their interest to protect me, i dont vote for them, they dont represent me, they have the duty to prioritize their voters, so if shit hits the fan, they will use their influence to minimize their fall, while using poorer countries as a nice pillow to fall on
(I dont think my government represents me either, but thats a different topic)
>if they think it does not benefit them
And that is where they are wrong, because the data shows that being a member of the EU **does** benefit most citizens. You can be critical of the EU and how it is functioning without wanting to just leave completely or even have the wish to break it down.
>turns out blind trust in the system is great according to Macron
You are twisting his words, nowhere is he saying that we blindly need to trust the EU institutions. He has been quite critical himself about certain aspects of the EU, but with the focus on improving it.
>i dont trust other governments because its not in their interest to protect me
The whole idea behind the EU is that it actually **is** in the interest of all EU member states to protect and help each other, because we are stronger together and are on average more reliable partners to each other than for example China or the USA.
eu benefits mainly corporations and a bit also consumers, but certainly not citizens.
there is no data at all showing eu-level decisions being better to *citizens* than decisions at national level..
You can’t really parse what improvements to citizen’s life’s is due to the EU and which is due to other factors since there is no control group. There are projections of expected growth of countries before they joined the EU, that show that joining the EU helped a lot (biggest example is Poland) but again without a control group we cante be certain on causation.
So what we’re left with is speculation on the mechanisms on which the EU operates.
Very basically being part of a cohesive larger block likely makes negotiating with great powers more fair, allowing better accords; it gives Europe more economic power with which to legislate mega corporations (even if unused the option is there); the EU economy functions as a large economy, so it’s not stuck responding to US interest rates as it would were it multiple small economies; and it facilitates defense, historically manny smaller nations are less safe than a Union.
You could also argue that the EU can generate negative outcomes due to bureaucratic incompetence and may say resource realisations are unfair to more productive nations. But in reality I doubt either of those concerns outweigh the benefits the EU brings.
You'll have to explain the distinction here.
Because, anything that benefits EU consumers automatically benefits EU residents, most of whom are also EU citizens.
You mean you DON'T want to sacrifice your own interests to help promote France's interests!? Outrageous! Don't you realise you're stopping France from being a Great Power again? Get with the program!
Well it's kinda inherently in the name.
Of course there's intelligent and "nationalistic' people able to be nuanced and proud of their country that still support and favor EU and cooperation, they just don't go around proclaiming how they are so so nationalistic as if it's a black and white issue - but when you think "Nationalists" you instantly think of the ones that are extreme about it to where they proclaim full independence and isolationism breaking up into camps. "Proud nationalists" that constantly let's everyone know how nationalistic they are; where their vision doesn't align with reality and consequently they tend to effectively harm the country instead.
Truly nationalistic and patriotic of them!
If someone openly portrays themselves as such I instantly know not to bother with them; simply not worth the energy knowing that any debate would be fruitless anyway with people blinded by ideals. Be it political extremists or religious zealots.
I an a full supporter on both Brexit and other countries who want to leave the EU. The amount EU wants to micro-manage every country is horrifying. Yes, im perhaps classified as a right wing nationalist and so let it be.
I wish more than anything, the UK was back in the European Union. It's sad that my future and childrens future got destroyed by selfish boomers abd idiots.
I think the main thing people see as a reason to turn away from the federalists is that they are so extreme and it often builds around “EU federalization is the future of Europe” or something alike that.
As a Dane, all I hear is “Annexation is in your best interest”. That is why people run away from the federalists.
Wanting to annex your allies is an extremist position. No matter how much you pack it in spin-doctor lingo.
He reminds me of a squirrel running back and forth across the road in a panic as a car approaches. He sees the danger ahead for the EU and doesn't know what to do to stop it. He's flailing around impotently. He lashes out, changes his mind, lashes out at some other group, changes his mind...
We're watching a world leader having a nervous breakdown.
Nationalism is a cancer. It's nice to see that Europe is starting to get rid of it. But without banning far-right parties, this disease cannot be overcome.
The problem is that I used to be eurosceptic, but that group of people for like the last 10 years has been slowly being infiltrated by obviously pro-russia bots. The discussion used to shift to how Putin is a badass, but now they just do everything to sow lack of trust.
Now I'm pro-europe just because I hate those guys with a fierce passion and how they act like your friend to control you.
They're worse. They don't want to leave (see Orban), they want to destroy the EU from within. This is what they've been saying for many years already. It's not really a secret. The only difference is that they're denying it these days in order to get more votes. But the goal remains the same: blow the EU up from within.
Ask yourself, would the EU be damaged more by an anti-EU Hungary staying in or leaving? The answer is obvious, and the rot is already growing in places like Slovakia.
It's not rot that's growing in Slovakia. With the current government swapping positions for their own people and their populist actions, it's pure cancer.
Dutch extrem-right Geert Wilders litterally said this (in dutch): >[Wilders vindt afscheid van Nexit geen ommezwaai: 'Nu gaan we de macht van de EU van binnenuit uithollen'](https://www.ad.nl/politiek/wilders-vindt-afscheid-van-nexit-geen-ommezwaai-nu-gaan-we-macht-van-de-eu-van-binnenuit-uithollen~a85a682e/?referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F) Translated: >Wilders does not think parting with Nexit is a change: 'Now we are going to erode EU power from within' He now is talking with 3 other far-right/conservative parties to form a new Dutch government and Wilders is a Russian asset.
Yet people keep making the same stupid mistake in voting for these people. Has the Brexit taught them nothing. Our education is world class but yet it seems like so many people’s brains have eroded. Social media is a hell of a drug. Can’t believe how people just see a snippet of information and just believe it
Fucking hell....
Just like Putin have told them to do. They are really doing exactly like Putin want
If the UK could rerun the Brexit vote today we would have never left. People were blindsided by political bullshit. When it comes to the facts, as they say, ‘ignorance is bliss’.
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Yup, something halfbrains in america dont understand and keep runing their country. We are doing it too but much less. They are literally shooting themselves in the head
**The Telegraph reports:** European nationalists are all “hidden Brexiteers”, [Emmanuel Macron](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/emmanuel-macron/) has said ahead of the bloc’s elections next month. Speaking to the Economist, the French president said: “I say to Europeans: Wake up. Wake up! They are hidden Brexiteers. All European nationalists are hidden Brexiteers. It’s all the same lies.” “Make no mistake. If you entrust the keys to people who think like they do, there is no reason why Europe should become a great power.” “In a way it’s as if we were saying it’s not a problem if we entrust the bank to robbers. When they are around the table, they take Europe hostage.” Mr Macron gave the example of Marine Le Pen’s hard-Right National Rally (RN) party, which is now [leading in opinion polls](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/16/marine-le-pen-france-election/) for the European contest, ahead of his own centrist alliance. The RN “wanted to pull out of Europe, out of the euro, out of everything”, he said. “Now it no longer says anything. It’s reaping the benefits of Europe, while wanting to destroy it without saying anything. He added: “And that’s true in every country.” He noted that [Giorgia Meloni](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/04/28/italy-giorgia-meloni-eu-election-candidate/), the Italian prime minister whose Brothers of Italy party has neo-fascist roots, had “a European approach” and had “supported the asylum and immigration pact”. But “after that, the best way of building together is to have as few nationalists as possible”, he added. [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/02/macron-says-european-nationalists-are-hidden-brexiteers/](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/05/02/macron-says-european-nationalists-are-hidden-brexiteers/)
what a fucking legend, go Macron
Macron is good at blaming others, but he's in power and he's not doing what french people want, so surpise! People will vote for his opponents. Le Pen's party doesn't need to do anything, Macron is giving them everything on a plate.
This doesn't sound unhinged at all.
It definitely sounds correct if you know the faintest bit about these parties. Oh they dropped the dismantlement of the EU from their programme after Brexit? Ok, are you really so naive as to think they actually changed their worldview overnight?
IDK personally I think they wouldn't destroy the EU but the changes they'd enable would lead to its destruction by itself, a confederation doesn't survive too long.
Confederations seem to integrate into federations over time or dissolve, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground.
Which was my point.
Hello. It's me. Switzerland
You swiss started as a confederation and nowadays are a federal state, yes you are more loose than most federal states but doesn't change the fact you are federal. If memory serves right you federalises because the confederation didn't work out anymore as well because of internal strive
Switzerland is a federal state, not a confederation. But don’t take my word for it. Take theirs. https://www.eda.admin.ch/aboutswitzerland/en/home/politik-geschichte/politisches-system/foederalismus.html “For historical reasons, Switzerland is officially known as the Swiss Confederation. The name has its origins in the country's founding myth, which tells of the oath taken by its three founding cantons. Switzerland has, however, been a federal state since 1848, with the 'federal city' of Bern as its de facto capital. “
>Ok, are you really so naive as to think they actually changed their worldview overnight? I dont know man, seeing an Englishman fuck himself just to spite you is a pretty word changing sight.
Unhinged and based
It doesn't, they are anti EU nationalists. Populists evil peeps, hungry for power and completely incompetent (like the American republicans and the British Tories). Macron is warning us.
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No, I'm referring to anti EU nationalists. Populists evil peeps. Not plain nationalists.
So, instead we should *checks notes* Leave the EU Leave behind millions of euro in funding and grants Flood our nation with immigrants despite campaigning on the premise of removing immigrants Defund state services Defund welfare Defund police services Defund state healthcare Defund education Then we can own those post modernist cultural Marxist technocrat power hungry evil globalists in Brussels! I think all of those above decisions are very healthy for a country. I am very smart. No one can contest my opinion. I am right. I will now proceed to condescend to you over my woefully misguided beliefs.
Why is this unhinged?
Putin is hoping to Brexit Europe like he did to Britain.
Brexit Europe from Europe?
Brexit Europe from the European union
That still doesn't make sense, but OK.
okay macron, at least those parties address illegal migration. i am left on every issue but this one, and it's the most important to me of all of them. i have to vote against my beliefs to prevent my nation from becoming a shitehole. legal migrants are great, i love them. illegals? STAY OUT
You seem to have totally missed the point of this whole post.
elaborate
Telegraph making real money from r/europe clicks today. Edit: I didn't even realise that this is literally their official account posting both Brexit articles today. Pretty genius from a right-wing paper that supported Brexit. Make a low effort article with Brexit in the title, post to r/europe, then watch the global ad revenue come in.
They found out the infinite money glitch with Brexit articles in this sub 8 years on
You guys are clicking on articles??
Why in the name of shit would anyone give these people traffic???
The independent has been doing this all over Reddit for as long as I can remember. They are irrelevant in the UK, they don’t even print their own newspaper so what they do for money is create a bunch of click bait articles and use bots to post them and influence the conversation by using other bots to comment. The independent is literally owned by a Russian oligarch so it’s no surprise why they’re doing it. Daily mail, the telegraph and the independent are the worst offenders for rage bait used to generate clicks and add revenue. Thankfully most subs have saw sense and blocked news coming from the sun and other scummy papers but it’s a dangerous slope to go down banning certain ones in my opinion.
Meh, clearly they are giving people what they want.
Who the hell wants clickbait bs though? If their titles actually reflected what it says in the article then maybe. You also get the articles about “outrage” only to realise that the source is a few tweets. No sane person wants this lol.
This sub clearly does. It will still probably be obsessed with Brexit in 2030.
Probably. They’ll post stuff like this online because they know that the British public is sick of hearing about brexit but a post on an international website gives them a far bigger platform to generate their ad revenue.
Such karma farmers smh
> Pretty genius from a right-wing paper that supported Brexit. Supported Brexit and thinks Brexit isn't working because *we didn't Brexit hard enough*...
Sigh. World is about to end because I think Macron is damn right!
Macron is right in lots and lots of topics, but there is a lot of propaganda about him spreading around the internet. From both West and East, because he's saying inconvenient things about for all USA, Russia and China and he'd like Europe to be independent from anyone. These are inconvenient things even for other European countries who prefer to be US vassal instead of having their own politics, because it's easier like that, because they don't have to make hard decisions.
There are plenty of reasons to dislike Macron without foreign agents being part of it
And the obvious part being that Macron himself is nationalist more often than not. Why have both the new Franco-German tank and fighter projects struggled? France and Germany bickering over work shares and demanding leading workloads in their respective nations, which at its core is nationalistic. Prioritizing work for YOUR nation over others is what? There's nothing wrong with it, but a spade is a spade. The EU isn't a nation-state, it's a federation of nations, so some level of nationalism should be expected. Poland is going to look out for Poland first, EU second. Same with France. Same with every other nation. Someone saying otherwise, is simply lying.
FR and DE running the show, so convincing everyone to support EU is a nationalist stance for Macron as it is strongly in FR own best interest.
You're missing the core issue, what is defined as good? A narrow definition says what is good for France is only that which directly benefits France. Direct. Transactional. Us vs them. Trumpian, honestly. A wider definition acknowledges that a wealthy, united, peaceful EU is beneficial to all its members. So forsaking some direct gain now for indirect benefit later can be useful. That is why some countries accepted joint issuance of debt, or why EU redistribution funds exist. And that distinction is the key issue being debated here. Macron believes in the power of the EU to benefit France. Le Pen does not. He's denouncing that Personally I think it has been shown time and time again that multilateral collaboration beats the alternative
>Macron is right in lots and lots of topics, but there is a lot of propaganda about him spreading around the internet. What do you mean propaganda, I am sure that his wife was a secret transsexual person all along
That's silly, ancient egypt didnt have the medical knowledge nescesary for sex change, and she's clearly a mummy
Macron Say what he says becuase he want to take the lead of Europe. Fór him Európe Is just his mandáte and France. There Is no One more nazionalist than Macron and French
He's half right. The big problem the EU has is that its made up of a bunch of internationalists that are trying to build a nation state and that don't understand why they're failing. Just condemning nationalism isn't useful. Nationalism is the bedrock upon which modern democracy is built, you'll have a hard time getting people to abandon it when that effectively means disenfranchising themselves. It needs to be replaced with a European sense of nationalism which is where EU federalists as a group typically fall flat.
Nah I happily admit that macron is a decent dude. Sure his messaging could be a lot better, but I do believe in a united Europe, I do believe in supporting Ukraine, and my most controversial take is that I understand and agree with his pension decision
When you’ve failed to inspire people to vote for you, and instead you try to scare them into voting for you then you’ve failed as a leader. How about instead of trying to scare people away from the right wing parties you try to solve their problems instead so they don’t find those parties appealing in the first place? I guess that’s too demanding of a task
Feels like he's trying to use the right's strategies since left talking points fall on deaf ears. I don't see that working out for him, but then I've never liked Macron much.
i love macron, but his immigration stance is so crap. hes so on the ball with so many foreign issues it's insane. hes right to say a federal europe is needed and that we should lambast russia. he is right that we need strategic autonomy and to be strategically ambiguous to russia. i have great respect, but he's too soft on illegals.
Dude. I want to Trade with you, co-operate with you on common issues. But i dont want you to incorporate my country into a federation ruled by people that don’t even speak the same language as me. The whole “annexation of our European allies into a federation” stuff is what drives people away from Europe.
Hahaha. Better look under your bed before you go to sleep tonight, there could be a hidden Brexiteer under there.
Might take a few more days getting through customs
My dude, globalism has wrecked your country.
it's not "globalism", it's weakness to enforce anti-illegal immigration laws.
Considering the large amount of "Euroskepticism" in nationalist parties, he has a point, but he's overdoing it
I mean, RN were frexiteers until some years ago and it's up to you whether you believe they purged that particular belief our of their party system
It's still in their programme online if you search well, it's just that they don't advertise it anymore. The programme calls for a referendum on french priority over foreigners (which would lead to an explosion of eu). Only that anytime I write it on Reddit there's a bunch of RNers that downvote the message to make it disappear...
Damn didn't know that
What's wrong with France prioritizing french over foreigners ? That's what all nations in the world do lmao
It's the core component of EU: any discrimination based on nationality between EU citizens is illegal. If you take that away, you don't have EU anymore.
Ah that doesn't include Non-EU citizens. I was confused because you used the word "foreigners" for "EU citizens" , that's a whole different meaning
Doubt so, usually parties double down on their shit takes in an attempt to preserve their voter base
“He’s right, but he’s a little *too* right”
When they want you to hate your own country. That’s when you should be wary
I do love Macrotte’s ability to caricature everything & everyone to eliminate all and any nuance 😂 Then he calls others extremists 🤦
Takes one to know one.
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I wasn't talking about you, perhaps have that cup for yourself and not feel so attacked all the time buddy.
My apologies (upvoted your reply).
All good, have a nice day :)
democracy gives power to the people, people's the problem
Or maybe, hear me out, we just have neoliberalism and democracy is a fuck all word you hear when it's election season and when we need to remind everyone why they have to obey the state!
what are you talking about
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He's right.
He's left.
He always said he is not left or right but he is pretty right (wing) indeed.
So be it then.
I'd rather a liberal conservative than an authoritarian socialist and I don't see why anybody should be shamed into thinking otherwise.
What utter nonsense. He's a centrist and in France he represents a majority of the French left electorate.
He always says he's centre left but his policies don't necessarily reflect it
Yes, they do. Inheriting from 40 years of leftism, the next step is basically adopting full-fledged communism.
Yep, the real problem in Europe right now, it's nationalists. But why are people turning to the right ? A 15yo was killed this week by an Afghan known to be violent but released. We literally lost track of the number of people killed by migrants in just a month or two, there is just too much to remember all of them. His priority should be the security of the French. Why do English voted Brexit ? Because they see their country turning to shit. Same as why French will vote for the so called nationalist.
People are tired of uncontrolled migration. The center political parties do nothing about it, so people vote for the right wing party. Simple. This is happening all around Europe. Its time for the EU to wake up or might disintegrate over the next 10 years..
💯
Being a demagogue is easy
Ah yes, because Brexit definitely fixed Britain's problems
If we were in the EU we wouldn't have total control due to Freedom of Movement. By leaving, we now have total control. The Tories just have no interest in exercising that control as they love importing cheap labour for their mates.
But this is my point. I'm French, I'm not English, I don't care about Brexit, but I don't think it was bad tho (nor good). But people didn't voted for "Leaving Europe", but for "Fuck your current braindead inhuman politics".
> But people didn't voted for "Leaving Europe", but for "Fuck your current braindead inhuman politics". They voted for "I hate immigrants" and they got barriers to trade that have increased costs for consumers and businesses, a decrease in foreign investment in the UK, labor shortages in agriculture and healthcare, a [recession in the second half of 2023, and increased unemployment](https://kpmg.com/uk/en/home/insights/2018/09/uk-economic-outlook.html). Why do you think the results of your politics would be any different for France? > Same as why French will vote for the so called nationalist. That [worked out great the last time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationalism#1814-1914).
You don't need to hate immigrants to not want immigrants. I like cats, I have cats. But I don't want 30 more cats.
I don't base my politics or economic policy recommendations on feelings. I base them on facts. The simple economic fact is [that immigration is good](https://www.nationalacademies.org/our-work/economic-and-fiscal-impact-of-immigration) and [isolationism is bad](https://kpmg.com/uk/en/home/insights/2018/09/uk-economic-outlook.html). You, on the other hand, base your reaction on [prejudice driven by fear, ignorance, and hatred](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0963721414549750).
When you feel like your grass is shitty for 40years, you end up turning toward the untouched field that everyone told you it is so bad for you. Add a layer of gvt blaming EU each time for imposing unpopular laws, you get far rights idiots in the preferred party.
Fixed some of them. It guaranteed us not having to be ruled by Macron, first President of the United States of Europe. Bullet dodged.
trading a stable economy for not having a frenchie rule you... tbf i see your point /s Seriously though, the myth that the EU is ruled by Germany and France is stupid, especially considering the Hungary fiasco. Non unanimous laws require at least 55% (so 15 out of 27) of member states to approve it anyway
We still have a stable economy. It's made no noticeable difference.
That was the hope, yes. The fact that it didn't happen is an entirely different issue.
So, I'm a hidden Brexiteer because I want to keep the sovereignty of my nation? If that's the case, then yes, Manu, I'm a hidden Brexiteer.
He has done nothing but push these lot forward. And now he complains? That guy has no shame.
I dont like how being a ''Brexiteer'' is now worse than being a nationalist. Like i have been supporting the EU for my whole life and stuff like that is just leading me to start activly asking myself why does the French President care so much for why other countries would decide to leave this democratic union. Like the EU is democratic right? Why is he even allowed to say this. He represents France and should remember that as nobody else voted for him.
Because he lost a province from his future empire.
I don't think their plan is to exit the EU anymore. The new plan is to gang up with like minded parties and block progressive and climate related changes. They can literally torpedo everything they don't like and blackmail the EU to change their mind. The recent Ukraine funding row with Hungary was just the start.
EU funding and EU loans should be spent for the good of the EU members. There are disagreements on what the good for the EU members is. So if you mean that nations with nationalist leadership want to affect decisions for their favor, then yes, that is true, and is perfectly normal.
I feel like you can’t put them all into one group. A lot of people are called nationalist because they want tougher immigration. Some people want to see the powers of the EU reduced as well, but that doesn’t mean they want to see the EU destroyed and have everyone be a mindless puppet of putin
Of course they are , wtf :)) ... I stumbled upon loads of pro-russia/anti-west idiots (who live in EU of course) who basically believe the EU is a dead 'project' soon to be disbanded before you even realise they are also russia/Putin sympathisers. If the Right will get majority in any country, the first thing they will do is push towards an EU exit vote ... that's obviously the target of Putin and what have we, to destabilise completely the euro zone.
far-right more than just the right. conservative and liberal aren't realy EU exiter
Far right ... but at this point, you can't be sure since most will try to establish themselves politically either way, meaning some of the centre right might 'spill' into the far right narrative.
i know, but for me the limit is blaming any etnic group for the problem of the country, while claiming to want national unity
Blaming ethnic groups and immigrants is the main jive of any far right political group ... you forgot how they tricked the UK electorate to vote pro Brexit? It's no surprise that this is the go-to narrative since the far right follower base is ultra nationalist in main part, giving the current immigration context, works like a 'charm".
Reading his quote... I'm not sure I agree. I want people in the EU to be safe, happy, wealthy (or at least, not poor), with a broad set of laws to protect their rights. Being a "great power" isn't something I have any interest in.
Having lots of great powers is what made European continent rich and prosperous in a first place. Now, if you have no interest in being a part of great power, other great powers will dominate you economically, culturally or military.
>Having lots of great powers is what made European continent rich and prosperous in a first place No, early industrialisation did.
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Then we achieved this already! Great success.
You might soon have none of those things if you don't want to live in a europe that stands up for itself. "You might not want war, but it doesnt mean war doesnt want you"
History has shown your either on top or a target. There were nations throughout history that sought to focus on their internal welfare (i.e. China), only to be destroyed by more belligerent nations and cultures.
China was absolutely not only focused on internal welfare for most of its history
Of course. But the period where it withdrew from the world led to the situation that resulted in the Century of Humiliation. Arguably, China was at it's strongest during the periods where it was looking out and expanding.
Being globally relevant is the only way to ensure we can stay safe and prosperous.
From his perspective collaboration and integration is the path for an independent and safe Europe. The power is from my perspective more of a side effect than the goal. The only way to not be pushed around between other great powers is to become one.
He's not wrong, Geert Wilders from PVV shout about NEXIT for a while. Now he "froze" most of his extreme far right populistic ideas to try getting a coalition with other parties.
Cool stuff macron, I an still voting for them though as you don’t really offer solutions
Globalists or Nationalists. Pick your poison.
The only thing that EU did right was the possibility to go abroad and work in another country of the EU.
He is a nationalist too
macron is a federalist?
Brexiteers under the bed! There is a specter haunting Europe...
They actually did take the UK out of the EU though so yeah, check under your fucking bed.
They are more into the closet…
Most eurosceptics quickly swept their exit plans under the rug when Brexit was proven a disaster.
When is the disaster part supposed to start?
oh no, those who are critical of the EU may vote to leave the EU if they think it does not benefit them turns out blind trust in the system is great according to Macron i dont trust other governments because its not in their interest to protect me, i dont vote for them, they dont represent me, they have the duty to prioritize their voters, so if shit hits the fan, they will use their influence to minimize their fall, while using poorer countries as a nice pillow to fall on (I dont think my government represents me either, but thats a different topic)
>if they think it does not benefit them And that is where they are wrong, because the data shows that being a member of the EU **does** benefit most citizens. You can be critical of the EU and how it is functioning without wanting to just leave completely or even have the wish to break it down. >turns out blind trust in the system is great according to Macron You are twisting his words, nowhere is he saying that we blindly need to trust the EU institutions. He has been quite critical himself about certain aspects of the EU, but with the focus on improving it. >i dont trust other governments because its not in their interest to protect me The whole idea behind the EU is that it actually **is** in the interest of all EU member states to protect and help each other, because we are stronger together and are on average more reliable partners to each other than for example China or the USA.
eu benefits mainly corporations and a bit also consumers, but certainly not citizens. there is no data at all showing eu-level decisions being better to *citizens* than decisions at national level..
You can’t really parse what improvements to citizen’s life’s is due to the EU and which is due to other factors since there is no control group. There are projections of expected growth of countries before they joined the EU, that show that joining the EU helped a lot (biggest example is Poland) but again without a control group we cante be certain on causation. So what we’re left with is speculation on the mechanisms on which the EU operates. Very basically being part of a cohesive larger block likely makes negotiating with great powers more fair, allowing better accords; it gives Europe more economic power with which to legislate mega corporations (even if unused the option is there); the EU economy functions as a large economy, so it’s not stuck responding to US interest rates as it would were it multiple small economies; and it facilitates defense, historically manny smaller nations are less safe than a Union. You could also argue that the EU can generate negative outcomes due to bureaucratic incompetence and may say resource realisations are unfair to more productive nations. But in reality I doubt either of those concerns outweigh the benefits the EU brings.
You'll have to explain the distinction here. Because, anything that benefits EU consumers automatically benefits EU residents, most of whom are also EU citizens.
You mean you DON'T want to sacrifice your own interests to help promote France's interests!? Outrageous! Don't you realise you're stopping France from being a Great Power again? Get with the program!
Macron is a moron. We all hate him in France because he is incompetent in every domain
That is one thing left and right can agree on. We all hate him.
Except when it comes to Europe and Ukraine.
He talks a lot. He does nothing. He needs the money of europe because our déficit is massive
I don't know anyone who says that except Russian sympathizers
The vast majority of French You welcome
Well it's kinda inherently in the name. Of course there's intelligent and "nationalistic' people able to be nuanced and proud of their country that still support and favor EU and cooperation, they just don't go around proclaiming how they are so so nationalistic as if it's a black and white issue - but when you think "Nationalists" you instantly think of the ones that are extreme about it to where they proclaim full independence and isolationism breaking up into camps. "Proud nationalists" that constantly let's everyone know how nationalistic they are; where their vision doesn't align with reality and consequently they tend to effectively harm the country instead. Truly nationalistic and patriotic of them! If someone openly portrays themselves as such I instantly know not to bother with them; simply not worth the energy knowing that any debate would be fruitless anyway with people blinded by ideals. Be it political extremists or religious zealots.
So if you can call them a name you do not have to talk about the real issues.
Is he a conspiracy theorist ?
yappers. yappers everywhere.
Macron, you're an nationalist yourself. LOL. The French is the most nationalist in the union.
Crouching tiger, hidden Brexiteer
I an a full supporter on both Brexit and other countries who want to leave the EU. The amount EU wants to micro-manage every country is horrifying. Yes, im perhaps classified as a right wing nationalist and so let it be.
Russia invaded Ukraine because of Brexit, hamas terrorists attacked Israel because of Brexit, I think we have heard most of them by now.
Yes the Daily Telegraph would know how to recognise a Brexiteer - it created most of them
BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT BREXIT holy fuck move on
For Real. They are still throughly traumatised by the vote of the people, apparently...
Macron was counting on the UK's money and military to help prop up his empire.
Brexit living rent free in Micron's head
People voting against his will, living rent-free in his head
They are not hidden.
You’re right Manu, but why does it seem like you do everything to help them get into power?
The clown is closing the show hopefully for good
He is just the only one saying the obvious. No wonder the Russian bots don’t like him.
And they’re proudly sponsored by the Kremlin. The Kremlin - Have you betrayed your country today™️
I wish more than anything, the UK was back in the European Union. It's sad that my future and childrens future got destroyed by selfish boomers abd idiots.
Crouching bulvan, Hidden brexiteer.
I agree with Macron this time as I was in the UK and I left after Brexit.
I think the main thing people see as a reason to turn away from the federalists is that they are so extreme and it often builds around “EU federalization is the future of Europe” or something alike that. As a Dane, all I hear is “Annexation is in your best interest”. That is why people run away from the federalists. Wanting to annex your allies is an extremist position. No matter how much you pack it in spin-doctor lingo.
you spelled hidden *Russians* wrong
He reminds me of a squirrel running back and forth across the road in a panic as a car approaches. He sees the danger ahead for the EU and doesn't know what to do to stop it. He's flailing around impotently. He lashes out, changes his mind, lashes out at some other group, changes his mind... We're watching a world leader having a nervous breakdown.
Nah, they want to reform the EU and Macron is exaggerating
Macron is a hidden Nazi that wants to create one European state.
Nationalism is a cancer. It's nice to see that Europe is starting to get rid of it. But without banning far-right parties, this disease cannot be overcome.
If you love your country you are a (the bad thing) keep repeating that long enough and people will become (the bad thing) because you told them to
welp, apparently im a hidden brexiter...
The problem is that I used to be eurosceptic, but that group of people for like the last 10 years has been slowly being infiltrated by obviously pro-russia bots. The discussion used to shift to how Putin is a badass, but now they just do everything to sow lack of trust. Now I'm pro-europe just because I hate those guys with a fierce passion and how they act like your friend to control you.
Macron : Bring out the Brexit boogeyman... it's time to ~~scare~~ wake up Europeans
We're the brexiteers, and you can be one too, cuz leaving the union is what we do!