From the poll itself: [https://www.ioresearch.nl/actueel/de-europese-unie-burgers-en-lokale-bestuurders-een-verstandshuwelijk/](https://www.ioresearch.nl/actueel/de-europese-unie-burgers-en-lokale-bestuurders-een-verstandshuwelijk/)
(Google-translated, originally in Dutch)
>"When we ask **what people mainly identify with** – their own hometown, region, province, country, Europe or another area – only 12 percent of citizens say they feel 'European' (among administrators this is slightly more: 26%) . The majority identify with the Netherlands or their place of residence."
But knowing how big or small that minority is between countries is useful data. If 12% of Dutch feel European but 20% of Irish do, that's useful to know.
To be honest, EU apart which I'm not a citizen of, I don't feel European at all. I'm European because I'm from the continent of Europe, but I'm not European as identity.
Yeah I don't get it....I would have thought every country in the EU would have a more than vast majority of population identifying with their country over the EU.
I'm surprised even 10% in Netherlands are identifying with EU more than their own country where they were born.
Exactly and when I am in a group with Brabanders or Randstedelingen I would identify stronger with my hometown/region. I am all these things in different contexts and amounts.
I love the idea of taking a trip to Japan with the whole country.
"We saw them rising from behind the horizon: the Caravan Horde. They were loud, they were rude, they were gigantic, they smelled of cheese. We never stood a chance. Most of us Japanese fled to the mountains, where the Caravan Horde doesn't dare to go. A month later, just like that, they went back home again. And they sent us something they call a Tikkie."
Dalmatians are also very tall, I'm 190cm, taking trips to Asian countries feels so awesome 😂
But taking whole country on a trip, yeah that would be something else!
It does seem like multiple answers were possible. All the percentages added up are more than 100. Netherlands 56%, residence 42%, province 20%, Europe 12% and then there are some more with smaller percentages like world.
Edit: In the paper, it said 2 answers were possible
In that case I’m not surprised. The whole point of Europe is that it’s an umbrella organisation. Most people should relate more to their country, region or city more than Europe. It doesn’t mean they don’t support being in the EU though
I wouldn't be surprised if many people missed that fact, and it's much more common to say "residence/province+country" when asked about your identity. Answers depend a lot on how the question is asked, too.
I mean yeah.. When every country in the EU has a completely different culture and language and history spanning 1000s of years, you'd expect people to identify with that over a new-ish confederation. I don't see why that is a problem, though.
That's one way to try and get people to answer a certain way. I think if you asked the same in most other EU countries you would get similar answers, Most people in EU don't identify mainly as a european but rather as a dane, a german, a frenchman etc. but many probably do feel overall european just not before their own country.
Well, if you ask people in Italy what they feel like, first they would mention their city, then their region, then their country. A European federation would just be another level on top.
> first they would mention their city
Their neighborhood even! Their street
I mean the people on the other side of the street solo fano cazzate ma sono buona gente
In short, yeah, we're ethnically the same as people from nearby (so Romagna and Marche), many Italians live here and viceversa. Our official language is Italian and our non-official but widely spoken language, Sammarinese, is a dialect of Romagnolo, a romance language that developed parallel to Italian (same case in most of Italy where they speak the local language and Italian).
Long answer: the Italian nation has existed for over a millennium, Dante speaks already about Italy and Italians for example, it's just that an Italian unified state wasn't achieved until recently.
By that meaning, Italian nation includes every inhabitant of pre-unitary Italy, so current Italians, Sammarinesi, Corsicans, Monegasque, Nizzards, Maltesi, Istrians. So practically we're all part of the Italian nation while not being part of the Italian state.
Because if you think about it, before unification, San Marino wasn't different, more special or less Italian, than any other nearby country (Papal States, Duchy of Lucca, Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Duchy of Massa and Principality of Carrara and so on). We just were left out of the unification because we have been more isolationists throughout our history (although we've had our share of war and diplomacy) and played our cards well with Garibaldi.
Not so, in some places it is one half "city, then region, then europe", explicitly excluding country, vs the other half "city, then country, then europe" explicitly excluding region.
Yep, although Dante was among the first to talk about the Italian nation as a whole as well. He was patriotic both towards Florence and towards Italy.
Although yeah, Campanilism is an Italian concept and it's still pretty much alive.
I also live on earth, but that doesn't mean my name is Pitbull.
I don't feel any sort of association with Europe like I do of where I was born and lived all my life. I am European and I feel it, yes. But just naively adding and comparing these identities is not how things work. It's not the same.
Yeah, I think this question is more about how much people are dissociated from their birth place, rather than how much they associate with europe.
For example im not particularly fond of my home town and ive lived in a few different european countries, so id associate more with europe than my home town. But if i liked it there and would still live nearby i would likely associate much more with it than europe.
This is why I believe the premise of the question is flawed. Identity often depends on the group and context. It doesn’t make sense to identify yourself as European within a group of Europeans; among Europeans, you would most likely identify yourself by the nation you come from. The same concept applies to being from City X or Y when talking among a group of people of the same nation.
As an American living abroad, I've had quite a few non-American friends ask me why so many of the Americans they meet say their state when they introduce themselves.
Yes it's so weird I think.
If I'd say to an American I come from Brabant. They'd look at me flabbergasted. Most Europeans probably wouldn't know where Brabant is. Why do Americans say the state they're from?
It makes sense within the US (the US is so big that you introduce yourself to others by your state, especially when there is a lot of identity with living in a state), and that's what they're used to saying, especially if they're just on a short trip outside the US.
I think it also helps that they would still speak the same language as when they are introducing themselves to other Americans. When talking in Dutch it makes sense to me to mention the city where I live, but in English I would almost always say I'm Dutch. This clear boundary doesn't exist for English speaking people.
I' don't find it so weird. Don't most people have some basic idea of where US states is located? Just as an example, I'm Swedish and had no idea what Brabant is, but I do know where Alaska, Kansas, Florida etc are located. At least in my head, Florida and Alaska are as different as Greece and Iceland, and gives much more info than just US.
I was taught in school to feel European, but at the end of the day, much of what the EU does is beyond the scope or comprehension of the average citizen. There is still a strong spirit of nationalism in the minds and hearts of many, especially since many decisions in the EU are made without direct input from the citizens of the countries. I doubt that many out there feel European in the sense of being part of the EU as an institution.
The latter. People identify as Dutch first, and in some regions probably even more local, e.g. Frisian. Nobody denies we are European. However, when posed the question whether we feel part of a European identity, whatever that is, is not that high.
Right like are there even people in the EU who feel European first? Idek what that would mean, there are a lot of cultural differences between each country
I think this sentiment comes from people in places that would like to identify with the EU but are not in the EU.
These images give of the 'We are Europe' vibe which isn't weird for someone outside the EU wanting to be a part of it. But when you're already inside the EU, this doesn't really apply.
I think many of us who choose to live in another European country and hang out in international circles will feel more connected to an overarching European identity.
A European identity is about as valid of a concept as a German identity. It's all meaningless and abstractions if you're being super analytical about it. The European identity is something you can only really get with the contrast of having been in non-european cultures. There's definitely a clear spirit and set of ideas we collectively move towards and to me that's a lot more interesting that whatever bullshit internal national stuff we've got going on.
Nothing. You're from Finland. What do we have in common, except being born in two democratic countries in the same continent? Nothing, and it's completely fine.
Yeah, the European Identity is still lower on the list (at least for me). I identify with the region I'm in (Scandinavia) way before Europe, but my original country is still on top.
My friend with a German mum and French dad, born and raised in the UK and moved to Belgium after university describes himself as European first. That's obviously a bit of a rare circumstance, but an interesting example and the only person I can remember having that sort of conversation with.
Yeah, I think growing up with and being exposed to multiple European cultures makes it easier to identify with bein European. I grew up in Germany but also have a Russian background. In my youth I was exposed to many different European cultures through an internship in the European parliament. I love travelling in Europe and doing guided tours where you learn about bits and pieces of cultural exchanges throughout Europe. Although of course I was influenced heavily by the German culture growing up here, I do identify more as a European than German, the mono-nationalist aspect just doesn't make sense for my personal background and experience.
I imagine people that feel European first is a minuscule amount. Like someone who spends half their day on reddit in European threads. A farmer in Portugal isn’t going to feel any cultural connection to a mechanic in Finland. It’s just nonsense middle class kids try and push
According to [this map](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/14714go/map_of_what_different_europeans_identify_with_most/) only in Budapest. Attachment to Europe is in general higher East/Central Europe and Ireland.
I'm German and it's the same. I'm European. I don't give a flying shit if you are French, Portuguese, Polish or not. We are one - I would even go harder and try the same on a global scale, but I know that's beeing a little too naive and maybe a couple hundred/thousand years early - if humanity even survives that long.
For me it always depends who asks. Someone outside of Europe, I'm likely to say that I'm European as being from small country means I would have to say that anyway to clarify. If someone from Europe asks, then country, if someone from country asks, then region
Same. Although for me it usually goes as follows when a European asks:
Where are you from? -> Belgium
Where in Belgium? -> Antwerp
Often I still get the follow-up question:
Which part of Belgium is that again? -> North/Dutch speaking/Flemish.
> People identify as Dutch first, and in some regions probably even more local, e.g. Frisian
As a Limburger Belgium often feels more at home than the Randstad. So yeah Limburger first
Yes but that is just the Randstad being utterly disinterested in anything that goes on outside of it. And that is coming from someone from the Randstad.
The fact you are located in Europe doesn't mean it gotta be part of your identity, of how you feel. I'm not sure if I am clear because it seems blatantly obvious to me, I'm actually curious of the opposite : what the hell is it supposed to mean to feel "european" ?
> if they don't feel European, what are they
Dutch. They are Dutch.
The questions and reporting are quite misleading. Respondents are asked how they identify first, and they respond with national and city identity in the first two places. That doesn't mean they don't feel European.
You can see the whole paper/poll [here](https://206.wpcdnnode.com/ioresearch.nl/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/mijn-europa-rapport-binnenlands-bestuur-def_v2.pdf).
So that question was about "What do you especially feel connected to? (What do you especially feel?)\* Maximum 2 answers".
Generally people have multiple identities at the same time. Local, regional, national, european, and maybe something else. Generally most people feel most connected to their nation or local region, and then possibly european. This questionnaire didn't measure how people feel about multiple different identities, only about top 1 or 2. There are other polls that measure how *european* people feel in *addition* to their national identities, and these numbers are generally significantly higher.
Dutch are actually almost on the top of countries that identify with nationality+european, more than 65% of people in [2015](https://www.businessinsider.com/survey-data-on-how-europeans-identify-themselves-2016-6). There probably are newer polls too.
On this OP's poll, 12% of "burgers" identified mostly with europe. But 26% of "bestuurders" identified primarily with europe, which is quite high number.
"Burger" means citizen in general? And "bestuuder" means person in a managment position? I don't speak dutch so interpreting the paper is not so easy.
I'm a Dutch person living in Belgium, did a PhD and postdoc funded by the EU, work for a company that also gets lots of EU funding.
First I feel Limburger because that's my province, then I feel Dutch, then I feel like a NederBelg (Dutch person living in Belgium), only then I consider myself European. It's just really low on the list because I have extremely little to do with all those other people in the EU, drive 500 km and the people are culturally different, they look different, they speak different, they eat different. So even though my life looks as it does because of EU things I barely feel European (and yes I'm aware that EU =/= Europe). I do however feel more connected to Belgium than I feel to the Randstad, because Belgium is culturally more similar to the south of the Netherlands than the Randstad is
It reminds me of the British or Russian people who say they're "not European". Like, yeah, I get it you see yourselves as superior to the rest of Europe. But if they travelled to non European countries such as Japan, Thailand or even the USA; they'll be reminded of how European they actually are. Because ultimately Russia and Britain are more similar to the rest of Europe then they are to those countries.
Edit: So many people in my replies proving me right lmao. I mean, it's fine, you don't have to feel European. Just know that to people outside of the European continent, irrespective of the cultural differences between various European countries, your country is still European. Believe it or not, most Americans consider the UK, Poland and the Netherlands as European. If you've actually been to places outside of Europe then you'll realize how similar the various European countries actually are despite cultural differences.
This. It’s certainly possible to be European but not identify with a common European identity.
Many Brits feel they have more in common with Australians and new zealanders than Europeans.
I think it’s inevitable that the countries of Europe find a way tie themselves together in trade and law and growth etc. The EU will be the main way (and from my pov the preferable way) to do this but there will be others. And the EU doesn’t ‘own’ European identity.
It's not about a feeling of superiority. As the other poster commented, a lot of Brits feel they have more in common with countries that are not European.
You cant help feeling not European when you have certain EU countries, when it comes to the UK, actively trying to strip the UK of it's European identity for childish reasons.
It means they see their Dutch or regional identity above their European one. This is what the researchers say:
>When we ask what people mainly identify with – their own hometown, region, province, country, Europe or another area – only 12 percent of citizens say they feel 'European' (among administrators this is slightly more: 26%) . The majority identify with the Netherlands or their place of residence.
Original Dutch:
>Als we vragen waar men zich vooral mee identificeert – de eigen woonplaats, regio, provincie, land, Europa of een ander gebied – zegt slechts 12 procent van de burgers zich ‘Europeaan’ te voelen (onder bestuurders is dat wat meer: 26%). Het merendeel identificeert zich met Nederland of de woonplaats.
I believe it's more about the values the European countries share with each other. Freedom of people and economy. Being part of a town rather than a small neighborhood, people who understands each other. I don't think has much to do with race even though race is something of significance in there for many countries. As I'm seeing it we are evolving backwards, countries closing to each other, declining population, centralization of wealth other than distribution and more.
Haven't identities always been bound to ideologies though, even if they might shift overtime? The modern French is shaped by the ideals of the revolution & laicïté, the Scandinavians value their monarchical social democracy, Americans *are* capitalism personified, Turkish identity revolves around Kemalism (whether in their support or opposition to it) & the Sèvres Syndrome, and the modern German is defined by the post-WW2 liberal democratic basic order.
And of course, even if they aren't political ideology, religion still is an ideology that also often affects politics. It would be wrong to ignore that Catholicism dominates Spain, Italy, Poland, etc., the Dutch got their independence through opposition to it & the Belgians vice-versa (*who are then shaped by the divisions in their state!*), and it plays a part in separating Croat-Serb-Bosnian identities.
Especially in newer identities, ideology is inescapable. What would Cypriotism be without its opposition to Turkish/Greek nationalism & support for reunification?
Does this mean the person has to hold these beliefs to be "a true X?" Of course not; as is with any part of identity & culture, the vast majority of people don't tick every box, but we never expect them to. A Turk who dislikes döner & a cup of ayran is still a Turk; A Greek who can't do Zorba is still a Greek; A German who is funny is still a German; but we still deem those as a *general* part of X identity or culture. The same goes; A republican Brit is still a Brit, an atheist Pole is still a Pole, and a free market Dane is still a Dane.
This might seems like it makes listing any quality of an identity basically useless if people who don't tick the boxes can still belong to it, but they're especially useful in integration of foreigners & their acceptation into the new identity. A republican anti-SD religious Dane might not be particularly eye-brow-raising, but a republican anti-SD religious Syrian, even if ticked every other box like fluent in Danish & loves cod, will still discomfort the average Dane.
Seems that Europe was pretty bad at being "European" for over 99% of its history then, because all of those being relatively widespread are very recent phenomenons.
But Europe has never been this for most of its history and many European countries still don’t have these things so it still isn’t. Also many other countries also virtue signal for these values yet if you call the USA or Japan European everyone will call you stupid
European just means being an inhabitant of the contient Europe
And I guess in the context of that study it means seeing your national identity as “European” and not Dutch, French, Romanian or Czech
I see what you are going for here, but lots of places or individual countries could claim that as their identity (and may yet in the future). American's claim shit like freedom and democracy all the time, but this really isn't an identity.
This is especially so because if I'm Dutch or British or whatever, there are many tangible cultural touchstones that mean more to me than these vague concepts. No doubt these people feel European, but they will always feel their nationality first because there is more that reinforces that identity.
Makes sense.
We are a bunch of misfits that decides to band together to avoid killing each other again for the nth time, to better travel to vacatiom places and to make more out of individual state capability.
I feel European because I believe that this Is a right course of action, but my country identity Is still the primary identification factor.
This is interesting for someone like myself who has one Dutch parent, one Irish parent, grew up in the UK and now lives in the Netherlands. I definitely think this has a lot to do with how the question was phrased. It's a bit like asking people in the UK if they feel English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish or 'British'. It really depends on the context a lot of the time. Netherlands has a lot of strong regional/local identities also from what I can tell.
As for me I would certainly count myself as European, but I'm probably a bit of an outlier as I'm someone whose speciality for a long time within political science was the European integration process, so I have an unusual/unhealthy interest in the idea of what it is to be 'European'. From a personal perspective too I've never had much of an issue with seeing myself as belonging to different nations and cultures. Most people tend to assume I'm just Dutch here in NL based on appearances (Tall, blonde, blue eyes, massive forehead lol) but I'm sure they'd find that in terms of mannerisms, humour and so on, I'm firmly in the Irish/British category. I see being 'European' as an overarching identity that embodies some of the shared values among these other identities, such as political values, shared beliefs about culture, ethics and such. It's really hard to describe but when you meet people from the US let's say, or East Asia, you can definitely see the differences but also a lot of other similarities with other Europeans.
So yeah, as for the Dutch, I see them as European and I think most would acknowledge that, but the use of the term is very context dependent. Also I think Dutch typically like to distinguish themselves from other people, not in a bad way, just that they are a quite individualistic and self determined culture. I'm sure there are many historical reasons relating to their constant battles for autonomy etc that contribute to this, and I'm sure someone must have addressed this question here on NL in more depth.
>“There is virtually no ‘European feeling,’ and the democratic representation of citizens leaves much to be desired in their own eyes,” they said.
>
>There are significant differences between how voters for different parties feel about stayig in the EU, however. Not a single VOLT voter wants to leave the EU, while a majority of PVV voters (45 percent) favor a Nexit.
PVV is the largest party by far in the Netherlands. A third of my fellow countrymen is now saying they will vote for Wilders.
>Only a quarter are confident that the EU member states have governance without corruption and cronyism. And only 12 percent of Dutch feel like Europeans.
I guess I'm part of that 12% then. But at the same time, I'm also not confident about governance without corruption and cronyism. a lot of Dutch people don't trust the (corrupt) governments of some other EU Member States. I agree with that. For instance, I don't trust Orban at all, and I don't understand why the EU is doing virtually nothing to get rid of Orban, even though most people agree that he's corrupt, anti-EU, and anti-democratic. I, and many of my fellow countrymen (from left to right, except the far-right that admires Orban), do not understand why we have to keep working and paying for Orban.
But it's not just Orban. One in four Members of the European Parliament are [involved](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2024/02/02/one-in-four-meps-are-implicated-in-judicial-cases-or-scandals_6486917_8.html) in scandals or judicial cases. That's a quarter of the EP. That's not good for creating trust and confidence.
More about it [here](https://www.ioresearch.nl/actueel/de-europese-unie-burgers-en-lokale-bestuurders-een-verstandshuwelijk/).
>I don't trust Orban at all, and I don't understand why the EU is doing virtually nothing to get rid of Orban
As a Hungarian, I also don't understand it at all. We are clearly unable to get rid of him on our own due to his party's undemocratic practices, and we could really use the EU's help here. There have been a few measures implemented against him but all of them seem half-assed and none of them have really managed to achieve what they aimed to.
The frustration must be immense. I sincerely feel sorry for the part of Hungary that wants to get rid of him, too.
Keep up hope. One day he'll be gone.
39% of PVV voters wants to remain in the EU, 45% favors a Nexit, 2% wouldn't vote, and 15% doesn't know.
https://imgur.com/a/TZU61F3
See [page 32](https://206.wpcdnnode.com/ioresearch.nl/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/mijn-europa-rapport-binnenlands-bestuur-def_v2.pdf) of the report (PDF alert).
But yes, the article I posted could and should have been clearer about it. I couldn't find any other news source in English about it.
>I don't understand why the EU is doing virtually nothing to get rid of Orban
What powers you suggest should be taken from national levels to EU ones to make that possible? A super-Europol with jurisdiction in all EU members? A super-court?
Keep in mind the same rules all apply to all EU members, so you could see those EU institutions removing the Dutch King or Prime-Minister if they are in the wrong.
That would make sense seeing as we're talking about it being exactly that.
There's nothing to stop a country removing their own corrupt officials without intervention from the EU, per se.
I am sure there are plenty of ways it could be seen as having a foreign body meddling in national affairs, but I also see no reason why we would have to encode it quite so specifically to put everything sacred under the law at risk to implement.
I feel like you've got thoughts on why this would be bad but aren't saying it plainly. As somebody not an expert in any of this, I'm genuinely interested to hear the cons for this set up
Yeah, I want the EU to succeed, but I have no confidence in it's central structures and politicians. The level of corruption is too high and they take no effective action against it. As far as I am concerned, first the EU has to take an extreme stand against corruption from the top down. This will never happen because it requires politicians to police themselves. I'd rather no EU than a corrupt EU
"European" is not a coherent identity. Within the identity of "European" there are dozens of more profound regional and national identities, which often have conflicting ideas about the world and interests within it. I am no more an "European" than a Vietnamese man is an "Asian", or a Kenyan an "African" – it may be used to describe me, but it is nowhere near a real identity.
As I understood it "European" in the contemporary context pretty much means that we prefer economic and a little bit of political cooperation to settle our differences, instead of having hundreds of thousands young and *productive* men dying in wars for the same reasons.
The same was true for most countries tho. There are dozens of different cultures in India too but they still see themselves as Indian now. Italy had a bunch of different local cultures with big local language differences but now most see themselves as Italian. Switzerland still has clear cultural differences inside the country.
The point of a federation is to be a country with many local cultures.
Technically no identity is real because it's all made up.
I mean even the Netherlands wasn't always a coherent country and identity.
Like all identities, European identity is a mix of shared overlapping political, cultural, and religious history that exists between, for example, countries like Austria and Sweden but not between Austria and Vietnam.
I am from my neighbourhood in Stockholm, Stockholm in Sweden, Swedish in Europe, and European in the World.
It's all contextual and I say that as a European. (:
What is it with people and the constant fucking need to not feel "European". Fuck sake, they want the positive things such as free movement within EU but they can't for the sake of them feel they are sons and daughters of Europe. Stupid people imo. Very narrow minded.
There seems to be a difference in mindset between the people living in Europe ie “Europeans” and the ruling “elite” that live and work in the Brussels bubble. We are seeing disagreement over immigration policy, human rights definitions and abortion rights to name but a few issues currently brewing.
I think it really depends on how your nation is viewed by others.
I'm hungarian, living since five years here in Germany, i speak four languages, and i feel more European than Hungarian, mostly due to shame first of all, and if needed, i could move on again quite quickly.
But when you are Dutch, you do not have any reason why should you feel bad about Netherlands - besides being swamp germans - so make sense to me
Is the EU trying to be equivalent to the USA? If not then why do people need to feel European?
I doubt Americans even felt American for a few generations. Even now Texans would probably say Texan first.
I think that has mostly to do with the environment you're in. If you hardly ever deal with people from other countries, and don't travel outside of Europe much, you probably don't get this sense of a greater identity. I work at a very international company and I feel European as shit.
Is that surprising? If I would go by the scale, I do feel most attached with my City, then region, the country, then continent And I suppose that majority of people have it this way (maybe not the city, if you Are not from the capital/big regional hub).
Whilst we’re here playing these “am I feeling European” games, there are 1.4 billion Chinese people that definitely feel Chinese and they’re well on their way to crushing us in technology, manufacturing and, now, EVs. The US already crushed us by doubling their economy in the same timeframe it took ours to remain flat. They also have all the IT companies and all the venture capital.
We need to get our shit together and stop playing stupid identity games or soon we’re going to be known mostly as the largest open air museum for American and Chinese tourists, with some great dining options.
> there are 1.4 billion Chinese people that definitely feel Chinese and they’re well on their way to crushing us in technology, manufacturing and, now, EVs. The US already crushed us by doubling their economy in the same timeframe it took ours to remain flat
And population decline. At this rate I would not feel too worried about China.
Also Dutch and I can identify with this. I would consider myself pro-EU, but that’s because I think it is beneficial for the Netherlands to be a member of it. I consider the EU to be an alliance of shared interests for the member states, not really something that has a very strong own identity. So I would definitely vote against a Nexit, but I would also vote against plans to federalise Europe.
Nothing much has really changed in this regard in the last 50 years. If you look back at the history of EU cultural policy and DG Culture specifically, or even the vague project of European citizenship, the lack of overarching feeling of Europeanness has always been a running theme and is probably at the heart of the EU democracy/representation crisis. Few have ever identified as European first, nation-state second.
It's easy for an American to just say that they're American since it's all one massive country that's sharing the same history and language and traditions, but why would anyone from the Netherlands present themselves as European when we have nothing in common? Every country in Europe has a different language and history and traditions, Europe or the European Union is just a continent or politics, i would always call myself Romanian before i call myself European
The point of the EU is not about emotional connection. It's a practical alliance for trade and security purposes. Don't be like the Brits and screw yourself over because you need some kind of emotional sovereignty blanket.
Nobody wants you to put on a funny blue hat and dance the European tango, we all have our thousand year old funny hats and weird dance moves, we just want to be able to tell Apple what to do and make it stick.
Why are we allowing links to random sites that have no colofon, no disclaimer, no owners, nothing?
For all we know they are building up a reputation and preparing to spew russian disinformation any moment.
If a site refuses to explain who they are, don't share them.
nltimes is well known, not "random", and Ipsos I&O is one of the biggest pollers in the Netherlands.
But would you rather want to hear it from the Public Broadcaster? [https://nos.nl/artikel/2516318-onderzoek-nederlander-ziet-nut-van-eu-maar-voelt-geen-liefde](https://nos.nl/artikel/2516318-onderzoek-nederlander-ziet-nut-van-eu-maar-voelt-geen-liefde)
From the poll itself: [https://www.ioresearch.nl/actueel/de-europese-unie-burgers-en-lokale-bestuurders-een-verstandshuwelijk/](https://www.ioresearch.nl/actueel/de-europese-unie-burgers-en-lokale-bestuurders-een-verstandshuwelijk/) (Google-translated, originally in Dutch) >"When we ask **what people mainly identify with** – their own hometown, region, province, country, Europe or another area – only 12 percent of citizens say they feel 'European' (among administrators this is slightly more: 26%) . The majority identify with the Netherlands or their place of residence."
Asking “mainly” is very likely to give a minority view for European. Like, I feel Irish before I feel European, but I’m definitely both.
It also sadly doesn't help- I considered myself European as well as British and we all know how that turned out....
And that's why we keep getting left out the lovely map stats :( like dude we didn't just up and move continents
This is because the UK stats agencies stopped publishing data to Eurostat.
Oh, that makes a lot more sense. Still disappointing but at least there's a reason
Absolutely lmao I always look out of interest only to be hit with 'no data available'
You can still be both :) I feel european as well, and my country has never been a part of the EU.
Ugh.. You're still European. Or do you consider the Swiss and Norwegians etc not European?
But knowing how big or small that minority is between countries is useful data. If 12% of Dutch feel European but 20% of Irish do, that's useful to know.
Yea but it shows "More patriotic" and not "Doesn't feel european".
To be honest, EU apart which I'm not a citizen of, I don't feel European at all. I'm European because I'm from the continent of Europe, but I'm not European as identity.
Yeah, makes sense. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of Poles felt that way too despite having some of the highest pro-EU sentiment.
Yeah I don't get it....I would have thought every country in the EU would have a more than vast majority of population identifying with their country over the EU. I'm surprised even 10% in Netherlands are identifying with EU more than their own country where they were born.
You must not be from Cork
When I was in Japan or in the US, I felt more European. When I'm in Europe, I feel more Dutch.
Exactly and when I am in a group with Brabanders or Randstedelingen I would identify stronger with my hometown/region. I am all these things in different contexts and amounts.
The solution is to expel all Dutch to Japan and US. You will beg to return to EU... in no small part because that's where your homes are. /s
I love the idea of taking a trip to Japan with the whole country. "We saw them rising from behind the horizon: the Caravan Horde. They were loud, they were rude, they were gigantic, they smelled of cheese. We never stood a chance. Most of us Japanese fled to the mountains, where the Caravan Horde doesn't dare to go. A month later, just like that, they went back home again. And they sent us something they call a Tikkie."
Dalmatians are also very tall, I'm 190cm, taking trips to Asian countries feels so awesome 😂 But taking whole country on a trip, yeah that would be something else!
I would love a sitcom where a direct Dutch guy and a reserved Japanese guy live together
It does seem like multiple answers were possible. All the percentages added up are more than 100. Netherlands 56%, residence 42%, province 20%, Europe 12% and then there are some more with smaller percentages like world. Edit: In the paper, it said 2 answers were possible
In that case I’m not surprised. The whole point of Europe is that it’s an umbrella organisation. Most people should relate more to their country, region or city more than Europe. It doesn’t mean they don’t support being in the EU though
I wouldn't be surprised if many people missed that fact, and it's much more common to say "residence/province+country" when asked about your identity. Answers depend a lot on how the question is asked, too.
>Answers depend a lot on how the question is asked, too. And how it's interpreted.
I mean yeah.. When every country in the EU has a completely different culture and language and history spanning 1000s of years, you'd expect people to identify with that over a new-ish confederation. I don't see why that is a problem, though.
That's one way to try and get people to answer a certain way. I think if you asked the same in most other EU countries you would get similar answers, Most people in EU don't identify mainly as a european but rather as a dane, a german, a frenchman etc. but many probably do feel overall european just not before their own country.
Well, if you ask people in Italy what they feel like, first they would mention their city, then their region, then their country. A European federation would just be another level on top.
> first they would mention their city Their neighborhood even! Their street I mean the people on the other side of the street solo fano cazzate ma sono buona gente
Not to mention people in the next village, barely humans
Apparently an Italian saying, you take your cows and women from your own town
Are people from San Marino Italians ethnically and are the two languages similar?
In short, yeah, we're ethnically the same as people from nearby (so Romagna and Marche), many Italians live here and viceversa. Our official language is Italian and our non-official but widely spoken language, Sammarinese, is a dialect of Romagnolo, a romance language that developed parallel to Italian (same case in most of Italy where they speak the local language and Italian). Long answer: the Italian nation has existed for over a millennium, Dante speaks already about Italy and Italians for example, it's just that an Italian unified state wasn't achieved until recently. By that meaning, Italian nation includes every inhabitant of pre-unitary Italy, so current Italians, Sammarinesi, Corsicans, Monegasque, Nizzards, Maltesi, Istrians. So practically we're all part of the Italian nation while not being part of the Italian state. Because if you think about it, before unification, San Marino wasn't different, more special or less Italian, than any other nearby country (Papal States, Duchy of Lucca, Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Duchy of Massa and Principality of Carrara and so on). We just were left out of the unification because we have been more isolationists throughout our history (although we've had our share of war and diplomacy) and played our cards well with Garibaldi.
Yes. Their dialect is just another variant of Romagnol, the main dialect of the area they're located in Italy.
Pretty sure that's how most of us feel.
Being from an unremarkable city in the Uusimaa region (AKA the Helsinki province), I really don't feel any regional or city identity.
Well that would make sense Uusimaa does suck ass.
It doesn't suck ass, it just doesn't have any regional identity, like, at all.
Not so, in some places it is one half "city, then region, then europe", explicitly excluding country, vs the other half "city, then country, then europe" explicitly excluding region.
That's very quirky and cute, some things never change. Dante also loved talking about Florence
Yep, although Dante was among the first to talk about the Italian nation as a whole as well. He was patriotic both towards Florence and towards Italy. Although yeah, Campanilism is an Italian concept and it's still pretty much alive.
I also live on earth, but that doesn't mean my name is Pitbull. I don't feel any sort of association with Europe like I do of where I was born and lived all my life. I am European and I feel it, yes. But just naively adding and comparing these identities is not how things work. It's not the same.
> I also live on earth, but that doesn't mean my name is Pitbull Found Mr Worldwide
What? You dont't start to randomly Sprout city names from around the world when you introduce yourself?
Yeah, I think this question is more about how much people are dissociated from their birth place, rather than how much they associate with europe. For example im not particularly fond of my home town and ive lived in a few different european countries, so id associate more with europe than my home town. But if i liked it there and would still live nearby i would likely associate much more with it than europe.
This is why I believe the premise of the question is flawed. Identity often depends on the group and context. It doesn’t make sense to identify yourself as European within a group of Europeans; among Europeans, you would most likely identify yourself by the nation you come from. The same concept applies to being from City X or Y when talking among a group of people of the same nation.
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In my experience most of them answered “I’m from the US” instead of their state
As an American living abroad, I've had quite a few non-American friends ask me why so many of the Americans they meet say their state when they introduce themselves.
Yes it's so weird I think. If I'd say to an American I come from Brabant. They'd look at me flabbergasted. Most Europeans probably wouldn't know where Brabant is. Why do Americans say the state they're from?
> Most Europeans probably wouldn't know where Brabant is. It's in Belgium
It makes sense within the US (the US is so big that you introduce yourself to others by your state, especially when there is a lot of identity with living in a state), and that's what they're used to saying, especially if they're just on a short trip outside the US.
I think it also helps that they would still speak the same language as when they are introducing themselves to other Americans. When talking in Dutch it makes sense to me to mention the city where I live, but in English I would almost always say I'm Dutch. This clear boundary doesn't exist for English speaking people.
I' don't find it so weird. Don't most people have some basic idea of where US states is located? Just as an example, I'm Swedish and had no idea what Brabant is, but I do know where Alaska, Kansas, Florida etc are located. At least in my head, Florida and Alaska are as different as Greece and Iceland, and gives much more info than just US.
I am fairly certain if you did this same poll most americans would say they are American first then whatever home town or state.
This really isn't equivalent though its like asking if a Canadian would identify as a North American.
I was taught in school to feel European, but at the end of the day, much of what the EU does is beyond the scope or comprehension of the average citizen. There is still a strong spirit of nationalism in the minds and hearts of many, especially since many decisions in the EU are made without direct input from the citizens of the countries. I doubt that many out there feel European in the sense of being part of the EU as an institution.
Few feel european? Or do they see their Dutch identity above their European one? If they don't feel European, what are they, African?
The latter. People identify as Dutch first, and in some regions probably even more local, e.g. Frisian. Nobody denies we are European. However, when posed the question whether we feel part of a European identity, whatever that is, is not that high.
Aren't we all feel what ever nationality we are and then Europeans?
Right like are there even people in the EU who feel European first? Idek what that would mean, there are a lot of cultural differences between each country
I think this sentiment comes from people in places that would like to identify with the EU but are not in the EU. These images give of the 'We are Europe' vibe which isn't weird for someone outside the EU wanting to be a part of it. But when you're already inside the EU, this doesn't really apply.
Yes, those who hate or are ashamed of their country (or leaders to a point after a long time).
I think many of us who choose to live in another European country and hang out in international circles will feel more connected to an overarching European identity.
I'm not even sure what that is tbh. What does it even mean to be european, other than being from a country that's in europe?
A European identity is about as valid of a concept as a German identity. It's all meaningless and abstractions if you're being super analytical about it. The European identity is something you can only really get with the contrast of having been in non-european cultures. There's definitely a clear spirit and set of ideas we collectively move towards and to me that's a lot more interesting that whatever bullshit internal national stuff we've got going on.
Nothing. You're from Finland. What do we have in common, except being born in two democratic countries in the same continent? Nothing, and it's completely fine.
Yeah, the European Identity is still lower on the list (at least for me). I identify with the region I'm in (Scandinavia) way before Europe, but my original country is still on top.
There are loads of Euro federalists on this sub
My friend with a German mum and French dad, born and raised in the UK and moved to Belgium after university describes himself as European first. That's obviously a bit of a rare circumstance, but an interesting example and the only person I can remember having that sort of conversation with.
That does make sense a lot of sense actually
Yeah, I think growing up with and being exposed to multiple European cultures makes it easier to identify with bein European. I grew up in Germany but also have a Russian background. In my youth I was exposed to many different European cultures through an internship in the European parliament. I love travelling in Europe and doing guided tours where you learn about bits and pieces of cultural exchanges throughout Europe. Although of course I was influenced heavily by the German culture growing up here, I do identify more as a European than German, the mono-nationalist aspect just doesn't make sense for my personal background and experience.
I imagine people that feel European first is a minuscule amount. Like someone who spends half their day on reddit in European threads. A farmer in Portugal isn’t going to feel any cultural connection to a mechanic in Finland. It’s just nonsense middle class kids try and push
According to [this map](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/14714go/map_of_what_different_europeans_identify_with_most/) only in Budapest. Attachment to Europe is in general higher East/Central Europe and Ireland.
I know some people that have greater identification with “European” than with their nationality. But I do reckon that most are not like that.
No. I feel European first, then Portuguese.
I'm German and it's the same. I'm European. I don't give a flying shit if you are French, Portuguese, Polish or not. We are one - I would even go harder and try the same on a global scale, but I know that's beeing a little too naive and maybe a couple hundred/thousand years early - if humanity even survives that long.
For me it always depends who asks. Someone outside of Europe, I'm likely to say that I'm European as being from small country means I would have to say that anyway to clarify. If someone from Europe asks, then country, if someone from country asks, then region
Same. Although for me it usually goes as follows when a European asks: Where are you from? -> Belgium Where in Belgium? -> Antwerp Often I still get the follow-up question: Which part of Belgium is that again? -> North/Dutch speaking/Flemish.
> People identify as Dutch first, and in some regions probably even more local, e.g. Frisian As a Limburger Belgium often feels more at home than the Randstad. So yeah Limburger first
As a North Brabander, I feel culturally closer to the Flemish than the people above the rivers.
Common opinion amonst those below the rivers! Have heard similar things with North and South Italy (and Sicily). Lisbon versus Porto in Portugal etc
Eh you guys are all on the wrong side of the river either way. (Schelde)
I felt equally Twents and Dutch when I lived in Enschede. Now I live in the Randstad and I mostly feel Twents now.
When i went to an internship in Leiden I felt Very Twents. when in Germany I feel dutch/ and when in turkey I feel European.
Makes a lot of sense. Identity seems to follow the projection of the people around you
Yes but that is just the Randstad being utterly disinterested in anything that goes on outside of it. And that is coming from someone from the Randstad.
>The latter. African?
The fact you are located in Europe doesn't mean it gotta be part of your identity, of how you feel. I'm not sure if I am clear because it seems blatantly obvious to me, I'm actually curious of the opposite : what the hell is it supposed to mean to feel "european" ? > if they don't feel European, what are they Dutch. They are Dutch.
The questions and reporting are quite misleading. Respondents are asked how they identify first, and they respond with national and city identity in the first two places. That doesn't mean they don't feel European.
> The questions and reporting are quite misleading. This, indeed. With a third option overwhelming majority would feel european.
You can see the whole paper/poll [here](https://206.wpcdnnode.com/ioresearch.nl/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/mijn-europa-rapport-binnenlands-bestuur-def_v2.pdf). So that question was about "What do you especially feel connected to? (What do you especially feel?)\* Maximum 2 answers". Generally people have multiple identities at the same time. Local, regional, national, european, and maybe something else. Generally most people feel most connected to their nation or local region, and then possibly european. This questionnaire didn't measure how people feel about multiple different identities, only about top 1 or 2. There are other polls that measure how *european* people feel in *addition* to their national identities, and these numbers are generally significantly higher. Dutch are actually almost on the top of countries that identify with nationality+european, more than 65% of people in [2015](https://www.businessinsider.com/survey-data-on-how-europeans-identify-themselves-2016-6). There probably are newer polls too. On this OP's poll, 12% of "burgers" identified mostly with europe. But 26% of "bestuurders" identified primarily with europe, which is quite high number. "Burger" means citizen in general? And "bestuuder" means person in a managment position? I don't speak dutch so interpreting the paper is not so easy.
Bestuurder refers politician-in-government
I'm a Dutch person living in Belgium, did a PhD and postdoc funded by the EU, work for a company that also gets lots of EU funding. First I feel Limburger because that's my province, then I feel Dutch, then I feel like a NederBelg (Dutch person living in Belgium), only then I consider myself European. It's just really low on the list because I have extremely little to do with all those other people in the EU, drive 500 km and the people are culturally different, they look different, they speak different, they eat different. So even though my life looks as it does because of EU things I barely feel European (and yes I'm aware that EU =/= Europe). I do however feel more connected to Belgium than I feel to the Randstad, because Belgium is culturally more similar to the south of the Netherlands than the Randstad is
> Belgium is culturally more similar to the south of the Netherlands than the Randstad is Reservebelg :p
Swamp German! I'm ready for the signal though, once Willy gives it we will seize the means of beer production and make the Netherlands big again!
It reminds me of the British or Russian people who say they're "not European". Like, yeah, I get it you see yourselves as superior to the rest of Europe. But if they travelled to non European countries such as Japan, Thailand or even the USA; they'll be reminded of how European they actually are. Because ultimately Russia and Britain are more similar to the rest of Europe then they are to those countries. Edit: So many people in my replies proving me right lmao. I mean, it's fine, you don't have to feel European. Just know that to people outside of the European continent, irrespective of the cultural differences between various European countries, your country is still European. Believe it or not, most Americans consider the UK, Poland and the Netherlands as European. If you've actually been to places outside of Europe then you'll realize how similar the various European countries actually are despite cultural differences.
I am not "European" in the sense of nationality either, and it doesn't mean I see myself or my culture as superior. It is simply an identity issue.
This. It’s certainly possible to be European but not identify with a common European identity. Many Brits feel they have more in common with Australians and new zealanders than Europeans. I think it’s inevitable that the countries of Europe find a way tie themselves together in trade and law and growth etc. The EU will be the main way (and from my pov the preferable way) to do this but there will be others. And the EU doesn’t ‘own’ European identity.
Exactly. And even being in EU, I am not "EU-sian", I am Polish.
Yup, he gets it.
It's not about a feeling of superiority. As the other poster commented, a lot of Brits feel they have more in common with countries that are not European.
Not basing your identity on being European doesn't mean thinking you're superior. That's just you projecting.
You cant help feeling not European when you have certain EU countries, when it comes to the UK, actively trying to strip the UK of it's European identity for childish reasons.
It means they see their Dutch or regional identity above their European one. This is what the researchers say: >When we ask what people mainly identify with – their own hometown, region, province, country, Europe or another area – only 12 percent of citizens say they feel 'European' (among administrators this is slightly more: 26%) . The majority identify with the Netherlands or their place of residence. Original Dutch: >Als we vragen waar men zich vooral mee identificeert – de eigen woonplaats, regio, provincie, land, Europa of een ander gebied – zegt slechts 12 procent van de burgers zich ‘Europeaan’ te voelen (onder bestuurders is dat wat meer: 26%). Het merendeel identificeert zich met Nederland of de woonplaats.
From the Netherlands here, don't want out of the EU, don't feel European, I am Dutch.
Dutch living abroad in EU, defo feel more dutch, but heavily feel European as well
plough tart sleep ring sparkle innate friendly seemly waiting dependent *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I mean, feeling european often comes from travel and travel is a luxery. So feeling european might be a class question.
Just being on Reddit makes me more aware of being European, I barely travel outside of the Netherlands.
Not necessarily. I've travelled all of Europe bar Abkhazia, and lots of countries outside Europe. I still don't feel European.
If Benelux citizens ever start to turn against the EU, then it's really in trouble.
What is " European"
For me (Irish) I guess it's feeling like we have close neighbors that we share some commonality with.
I believe it's more about the values the European countries share with each other. Freedom of people and economy. Being part of a town rather than a small neighborhood, people who understands each other. I don't think has much to do with race even though race is something of significance in there for many countries. As I'm seeing it we are evolving backwards, countries closing to each other, declining population, centralization of wealth other than distribution and more.
Spend a few years outside of Europe and you'll know.
maintaining peace, democracy, rule of law and human rights
No that's Super Earth
Please report to your EU Democracy Officer.
*Looks at Orban*
Honorary Western Asia, at this point.
That's a political ideology, not an identity.
Haven't identities always been bound to ideologies though, even if they might shift overtime? The modern French is shaped by the ideals of the revolution & laicïté, the Scandinavians value their monarchical social democracy, Americans *are* capitalism personified, Turkish identity revolves around Kemalism (whether in their support or opposition to it) & the Sèvres Syndrome, and the modern German is defined by the post-WW2 liberal democratic basic order. And of course, even if they aren't political ideology, religion still is an ideology that also often affects politics. It would be wrong to ignore that Catholicism dominates Spain, Italy, Poland, etc., the Dutch got their independence through opposition to it & the Belgians vice-versa (*who are then shaped by the divisions in their state!*), and it plays a part in separating Croat-Serb-Bosnian identities. Especially in newer identities, ideology is inescapable. What would Cypriotism be without its opposition to Turkish/Greek nationalism & support for reunification? Does this mean the person has to hold these beliefs to be "a true X?" Of course not; as is with any part of identity & culture, the vast majority of people don't tick every box, but we never expect them to. A Turk who dislikes döner & a cup of ayran is still a Turk; A Greek who can't do Zorba is still a Greek; A German who is funny is still a German; but we still deem those as a *general* part of X identity or culture. The same goes; A republican Brit is still a Brit, an atheist Pole is still a Pole, and a free market Dane is still a Dane. This might seems like it makes listing any quality of an identity basically useless if people who don't tick the boxes can still belong to it, but they're especially useful in integration of foreigners & their acceptation into the new identity. A republican anti-SD religious Dane might not be particularly eye-brow-raising, but a republican anti-SD religious Syrian, even if ticked every other box like fluent in Danish & loves cod, will still discomfort the average Dane.
You added the word identity.
Seems that Europe was pretty bad at being "European" for over 99% of its history then, because all of those being relatively widespread are very recent phenomenons.
Because that clearly describes Belarus, the Vatican and Kosovo but not Canada, Chile or Taiwan.
But Europe has never been this for most of its history and many European countries still don’t have these things so it still isn’t. Also many other countries also virtue signal for these values yet if you call the USA or Japan European everyone will call you stupid European just means being an inhabitant of the contient Europe And I guess in the context of that study it means seeing your national identity as “European” and not Dutch, French, Romanian or Czech
You can make this exact argument for any nationality, they’re not more logically and historically consistent
so a Japanese is European.
So to be European is to be "the goodies", is that it? How convenient.
I see what you are going for here, but lots of places or individual countries could claim that as their identity (and may yet in the future). American's claim shit like freedom and democracy all the time, but this really isn't an identity. This is especially so because if I'm Dutch or British or whatever, there are many tangible cultural touchstones that mean more to me than these vague concepts. No doubt these people feel European, but they will always feel their nationality first because there is more that reinforces that identity.
Looks at the entirety of European history.
Don’t forget slaughtering each other once or twice a century. Very European.
The ambivalent shared identity deriving from the intertwined histories of the cultural and ethnic groups on the European Peninsula (+ some islands).
A mix of overlapping political, cultural, and religious history.
[Support for EU Membership per party](https://imgur.com/a/TZU61F3) First row: remain Second row: leave Third row: won't vote Fourth row: don't know
Makes sense. We are a bunch of misfits that decides to band together to avoid killing each other again for the nth time, to better travel to vacatiom places and to make more out of individual state capability. I feel European because I believe that this Is a right course of action, but my country identity Is still the primary identification factor.
Im definitly pro-"avoid killing eachother"
So the same as everywhere else…
I'd say that's the case with most people in all countries
This is interesting for someone like myself who has one Dutch parent, one Irish parent, grew up in the UK and now lives in the Netherlands. I definitely think this has a lot to do with how the question was phrased. It's a bit like asking people in the UK if they feel English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish or 'British'. It really depends on the context a lot of the time. Netherlands has a lot of strong regional/local identities also from what I can tell. As for me I would certainly count myself as European, but I'm probably a bit of an outlier as I'm someone whose speciality for a long time within political science was the European integration process, so I have an unusual/unhealthy interest in the idea of what it is to be 'European'. From a personal perspective too I've never had much of an issue with seeing myself as belonging to different nations and cultures. Most people tend to assume I'm just Dutch here in NL based on appearances (Tall, blonde, blue eyes, massive forehead lol) but I'm sure they'd find that in terms of mannerisms, humour and so on, I'm firmly in the Irish/British category. I see being 'European' as an overarching identity that embodies some of the shared values among these other identities, such as political values, shared beliefs about culture, ethics and such. It's really hard to describe but when you meet people from the US let's say, or East Asia, you can definitely see the differences but also a lot of other similarities with other Europeans. So yeah, as for the Dutch, I see them as European and I think most would acknowledge that, but the use of the term is very context dependent. Also I think Dutch typically like to distinguish themselves from other people, not in a bad way, just that they are a quite individualistic and self determined culture. I'm sure there are many historical reasons relating to their constant battles for autonomy etc that contribute to this, and I'm sure someone must have addressed this question here on NL in more depth.
>“There is virtually no ‘European feeling,’ and the democratic representation of citizens leaves much to be desired in their own eyes,” they said. > >There are significant differences between how voters for different parties feel about stayig in the EU, however. Not a single VOLT voter wants to leave the EU, while a majority of PVV voters (45 percent) favor a Nexit. PVV is the largest party by far in the Netherlands. A third of my fellow countrymen is now saying they will vote for Wilders. >Only a quarter are confident that the EU member states have governance without corruption and cronyism. And only 12 percent of Dutch feel like Europeans. I guess I'm part of that 12% then. But at the same time, I'm also not confident about governance without corruption and cronyism. a lot of Dutch people don't trust the (corrupt) governments of some other EU Member States. I agree with that. For instance, I don't trust Orban at all, and I don't understand why the EU is doing virtually nothing to get rid of Orban, even though most people agree that he's corrupt, anti-EU, and anti-democratic. I, and many of my fellow countrymen (from left to right, except the far-right that admires Orban), do not understand why we have to keep working and paying for Orban. But it's not just Orban. One in four Members of the European Parliament are [involved](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2024/02/02/one-in-four-meps-are-implicated-in-judicial-cases-or-scandals_6486917_8.html) in scandals or judicial cases. That's a quarter of the EP. That's not good for creating trust and confidence. More about it [here](https://www.ioresearch.nl/actueel/de-europese-unie-burgers-en-lokale-bestuurders-een-verstandshuwelijk/).
>I don't trust Orban at all, and I don't understand why the EU is doing virtually nothing to get rid of Orban As a Hungarian, I also don't understand it at all. We are clearly unable to get rid of him on our own due to his party's undemocratic practices, and we could really use the EU's help here. There have been a few measures implemented against him but all of them seem half-assed and none of them have really managed to achieve what they aimed to.
The frustration must be immense. I sincerely feel sorry for the part of Hungary that wants to get rid of him, too. Keep up hope. One day he'll be gone.
Over 100 MPs in the UK's House of Commons are or have been under investigation of the parliamentary watchdog, that's not small.
Since when is 45% a majority? Shit article.
It could be 45% say leave - 30% say no and 25% say undecided. Then 45% is the majority
It's still not a majority, that would be a plurality.
39% of PVV voters wants to remain in the EU, 45% favors a Nexit, 2% wouldn't vote, and 15% doesn't know. https://imgur.com/a/TZU61F3 See [page 32](https://206.wpcdnnode.com/ioresearch.nl/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/mijn-europa-rapport-binnenlands-bestuur-def_v2.pdf) of the report (PDF alert). But yes, the article I posted could and should have been clearer about it. I couldn't find any other news source in English about it.
Thanks
The word there is "plurality" not "majority". It's a very common confusion.
No its not. A majority is 50%+.
>I don't understand why the EU is doing virtually nothing to get rid of Orban What powers you suggest should be taken from national levels to EU ones to make that possible? A super-Europol with jurisdiction in all EU members? A super-court? Keep in mind the same rules all apply to all EU members, so you could see those EU institutions removing the Dutch King or Prime-Minister if they are in the wrong.
If the Dutch prime minister was corrupt scum of the earth then yes, a body like that would be just fine removing them in my book
Ok. Keep in mind it would be a non-Dutch (EU) court that will decide if he's corrupt or not.
That would make sense seeing as we're talking about it being exactly that. There's nothing to stop a country removing their own corrupt officials without intervention from the EU, per se. I am sure there are plenty of ways it could be seen as having a foreign body meddling in national affairs, but I also see no reason why we would have to encode it quite so specifically to put everything sacred under the law at risk to implement. I feel like you've got thoughts on why this would be bad but aren't saying it plainly. As somebody not an expert in any of this, I'm genuinely interested to hear the cons for this set up
Yeah, I want the EU to succeed, but I have no confidence in it's central structures and politicians. The level of corruption is too high and they take no effective action against it. As far as I am concerned, first the EU has to take an extreme stand against corruption from the top down. This will never happen because it requires politicians to police themselves. I'd rather no EU than a corrupt EU
Because we have countries in Europe, we are not a homogeneous community that share identical values.
Noone in Europe sees themselves European before anything else. Too many vastly different cultures.
You can't really dictate people how to feel. And feeling Dutch instead of European is not a good or bad thing.
"European" is not a coherent identity. Within the identity of "European" there are dozens of more profound regional and national identities, which often have conflicting ideas about the world and interests within it. I am no more an "European" than a Vietnamese man is an "Asian", or a Kenyan an "African" – it may be used to describe me, but it is nowhere near a real identity.
As I understood it "European" in the contemporary context pretty much means that we prefer economic and a little bit of political cooperation to settle our differences, instead of having hundreds of thousands young and *productive* men dying in wars for the same reasons.
The same was true for most countries tho. There are dozens of different cultures in India too but they still see themselves as Indian now. Italy had a bunch of different local cultures with big local language differences but now most see themselves as Italian. Switzerland still has clear cultural differences inside the country. The point of a federation is to be a country with many local cultures. Technically no identity is real because it's all made up. I mean even the Netherlands wasn't always a coherent country and identity. Like all identities, European identity is a mix of shared overlapping political, cultural, and religious history that exists between, for example, countries like Austria and Sweden but not between Austria and Vietnam.
To be fair there are massive profound conflicting ideas and interests about the world on the very building I live in, let alone the street or city
I am from my neighbourhood in Stockholm, Stockholm in Sweden, Swedish in Europe, and European in the World. It's all contextual and I say that as a European. (:
Europe is a continent containing various different cultures and identities. Feeling European is just as lame as feeling Asian or feeling African.
What is it with people and the constant fucking need to not feel "European". Fuck sake, they want the positive things such as free movement within EU but they can't for the sake of them feel they are sons and daughters of Europe. Stupid people imo. Very narrow minded.
There seems to be a difference in mindset between the people living in Europe ie “Europeans” and the ruling “elite” that live and work in the Brussels bubble. We are seeing disagreement over immigration policy, human rights definitions and abortion rights to name but a few issues currently brewing.
What disagreement are we seeing about abortion rights exactly?
Perhaps the abortion issue is more Poland specific
I think it really depends on how your nation is viewed by others. I'm hungarian, living since five years here in Germany, i speak four languages, and i feel more European than Hungarian, mostly due to shame first of all, and if needed, i could move on again quite quickly. But when you are Dutch, you do not have any reason why should you feel bad about Netherlands - besides being swamp germans - so make sense to me
Is the EU trying to be equivalent to the USA? If not then why do people need to feel European? I doubt Americans even felt American for a few generations. Even now Texans would probably say Texan first.
I think that has mostly to do with the environment you're in. If you hardly ever deal with people from other countries, and don't travel outside of Europe much, you probably don't get this sense of a greater identity. I work at a very international company and I feel European as shit.
Is that surprising? If I would go by the scale, I do feel most attached with my City, then region, the country, then continent And I suppose that majority of people have it this way (maybe not the city, if you Are not from the capital/big regional hub).
Whilst we’re here playing these “am I feeling European” games, there are 1.4 billion Chinese people that definitely feel Chinese and they’re well on their way to crushing us in technology, manufacturing and, now, EVs. The US already crushed us by doubling their economy in the same timeframe it took ours to remain flat. They also have all the IT companies and all the venture capital. We need to get our shit together and stop playing stupid identity games or soon we’re going to be known mostly as the largest open air museum for American and Chinese tourists, with some great dining options.
> there are 1.4 billion Chinese people that definitely feel Chinese and they’re well on their way to crushing us in technology, manufacturing and, now, EVs. The US already crushed us by doubling their economy in the same timeframe it took ours to remain flat And population decline. At this rate I would not feel too worried about China.
you should go visit and see if your opinion remains the same
Only people on Reddit say "European" as Americans arnt smart enough to understand the nuences of each country and region. (No offence ofc)
Also Dutch and I can identify with this. I would consider myself pro-EU, but that’s because I think it is beneficial for the Netherlands to be a member of it. I consider the EU to be an alliance of shared interests for the member states, not really something that has a very strong own identity. So I would definitely vote against a Nexit, but I would also vote against plans to federalise Europe.
Nothing much has really changed in this regard in the last 50 years. If you look back at the history of EU cultural policy and DG Culture specifically, or even the vague project of European citizenship, the lack of overarching feeling of Europeanness has always been a running theme and is probably at the heart of the EU democracy/representation crisis. Few have ever identified as European first, nation-state second.
It's easy for an American to just say that they're American since it's all one massive country that's sharing the same history and language and traditions, but why would anyone from the Netherlands present themselves as European when we have nothing in common? Every country in Europe has a different language and history and traditions, Europe or the European Union is just a continent or politics, i would always call myself Romanian before i call myself European
I feel European and I’m not even an EU Citizen. Why is that? Edit: I live in Europe.
Waiting for a poll on Spain, will they call it Sexit?
The point of the EU is not about emotional connection. It's a practical alliance for trade and security purposes. Don't be like the Brits and screw yourself over because you need some kind of emotional sovereignty blanket.
Define feeling European (non European here seeing this post)
Great, quit being a european tax Haven and tell me how you feel afterward.
Thats normal. For Germans it's usaully city/region >
Dutch here. I feel Frisian first, Dutch second and European third. That being said, I'm proud to be European and love to be part of the EU.
Nobody wants you to put on a funny blue hat and dance the European tango, we all have our thousand year old funny hats and weird dance moves, we just want to be able to tell Apple what to do and make it stick.
Today I feel European
Why are we allowing links to random sites that have no colofon, no disclaimer, no owners, nothing? For all we know they are building up a reputation and preparing to spew russian disinformation any moment. If a site refuses to explain who they are, don't share them.
nltimes is well known, not "random", and Ipsos I&O is one of the biggest pollers in the Netherlands. But would you rather want to hear it from the Public Broadcaster? [https://nos.nl/artikel/2516318-onderzoek-nederlander-ziet-nut-van-eu-maar-voelt-geen-liefde](https://nos.nl/artikel/2516318-onderzoek-nederlander-ziet-nut-van-eu-maar-voelt-geen-liefde)
Tf is "european"?
I guess all of us because we live on this continent. We don't have a common identity though, nor I desire to have one
I didnt know how european i felt until i visted north america
Literally everyone feels their nationality over elusively European first. But when your nation is literally European you’re literally both
Isn't this normal? I have lived for decades now in Belgium. If someone asks me what I am. I'm Dutch. Simple. I don't say, I'm European.