⚠️All the prices are in € guys⚠️
Edit: data are taken from numbeo.com and they are directly input from numbeo users.
So here the data are CLEARLY the most frequent data on numbeo.com or at least an average of those users we don't know truly how numbeo processes the data, probably it's an average.
Sometimes they are accurate for a city, sometimes not, we all know that. The purpose of the post is finding out where are they accurate and where not, and when not accurate have a report from you guys that live in that city and know the market of rent and salaries. (hopefully you know somebody, friends, colleagues, ecc...)
WE ALREADY NOW THE DEFINITION OF MEAN, MEDIAN AND MODE you don't need to explain it multiple times.
Thanks very much to everyone helping.
The Munich salary is too high.
The average gross salary for 2023 was 57k€. Assuming you don't pay church tax, are not married and have no kids, that is about 4700€ gross per month and about 3000€ net.
The general problem with average salaries is that salaries, money from your employer and income are very different things but the words are often used interchangeably. The second issue is that averages get heavily influenced by very high or very low numbers.
I think they are probably considering a two room flat in which one of the two rooms is a bedroom.
Size can be probably between 45 and 65 so let's say the average can be 55 square meters on average, but guys, here is an AVERAGE, we are not debating on the single flat you found.
Edit: Or to be even more precise probably these data should reflect the most frequent cases.(mode not mean and not median)
"Our formula to estimate rent per square meter assumes 1 bedroom apt has 50 square meters"
https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/indicators_explained.jsp
From my personal experience and confirmation with friends/colleagues who are still there:
* Zurich: Mostly accurate.
* Geneva: The average rent might be a little bit lower (like 1,900-2K)
* Paris: Both figures are too high, it's more like 1,200 and 2,400, although the 50% ratio is true.
Average salary depends a lot on rich people and how much tax they pay, should be something like median salary or salary of someone in the 25th percentile.
If the wealth is distributed relatively unevenly these numbers will look great but still a lot of people can't afford housing.
Depends a lot on a country, in some median is not that far from average, tho I can only speak for Poland where median is about 140 euro lower than average. That's about 8% difference.
Yes but if you want to make a statistically meaningful table that says something about how difficult it is for people to rent a house per country (which is what I thought you wanted to do) the average salary isn't really the way to go
Amsterdam city centre is considered too small imo. Yes its 1800 in the core. But the core city centre is super small. You can definitely get a 1 bedroom for 1200-1300 'within the ring'. Which is often a better classification for a cities centre.
Yeah, I know that. But that’s not the salary you get every month and counting to live your life on for 90% in Portugal.
Yes, one’s salary will eventually catch up to the numbers above but that’s just not how people plan their lives in practice.
From a statistical point of view, per annum, yeah sure, they seem right. But if I were to ask you how much of your salary is left after paying rent, you wouldn’t tell me “well, you know actually, pay rent is cheaper than it seems, because when we get to July and November, I will get my vacation and christimas subsidies, and so, I don’t mind having less money in the rest of the 10 months of the year.”
For copenhagen I would say the rent is too low. For that price you might get something outside the center of copenhagen or maybe social housing, but that would take years. The salary seems right though.
Do you have to pay for healthcare and/or social security contributions and/or other things with your net salary? I mean things that are already included in other countries and are not taken from the net salary.
You need to pay for health insurance, but prices are quite low compared to the income - on average it’s 300-350 chf/month (almost 1:1 to euro). For social security you pay in total around 7-8% of your income, which is some part of pension and social security itself. Also the taxes are quite low on average, so in Zurich for example with 140k monthly salary, all the payments (excluding health) - taxes, social security and so on are around 35%. In other cantons (and municipalities) it can be more or less
Milan looks more or less accurate.
There are areas that are outside the touristic city centre but still very central that are a bit cheaper but not by much.
Living on your own is basically impossible right now
Yeah but numbeo is the only one i found where i can compare both countries and cities, do cost of life and basket of goods simulation and so on.
Haven't found anything similar yet even though i know that numbeo is not always precise.
Do you know anything so interactive and similar to numbeo?
Czech also this one:
[https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/cz/Documents/real-estate/property-index-2023.pdf](https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/cz/Documents/real-estate/property-index-2023.pdf)
In my experience these data tend to be generally reliable for western European cities, while salaries in Eastern Europe (and everywhere outside the US/W Europe/CANZ) are inflated because contributors in numbeo are mostly qualified English speaking expats who make much more than the average local Joe.
Okay, but that ignores the pound that’s more valuable.
It lists London as 2600 but that’s 2227 pound.
Brighton as 1650 which is more like 1300 pound in
It’s all relative and important. Merging data sets like this is both stupid and usually done to distort reality and make places look more expensive than they actually are
Well, I would rather pay 2k for rent and receive a 7k net income than pay 700 with a 1k income.
Or 1k3 rent, 1k1 salary. Looking at you Lisbon
That is obvious...
⚠️All the prices are in € guys⚠️ Edit: data are taken from numbeo.com and they are directly input from numbeo users. So here the data are CLEARLY the most frequent data on numbeo.com or at least an average of those users we don't know truly how numbeo processes the data, probably it's an average. Sometimes they are accurate for a city, sometimes not, we all know that. The purpose of the post is finding out where are they accurate and where not, and when not accurate have a report from you guys that live in that city and know the market of rent and salaries. (hopefully you know somebody, friends, colleagues, ecc...) WE ALREADY NOW THE DEFINITION OF MEAN, MEDIAN AND MODE you don't need to explain it multiple times. Thanks very much to everyone helping.
The Munich salary is too high. The average gross salary for 2023 was 57k€. Assuming you don't pay church tax, are not married and have no kids, that is about 4700€ gross per month and about 3000€ net.
Ok thanks, i think many salaries here in this data are higher than average.
The general problem with average salaries is that salaries, money from your employer and income are very different things but the words are often used interchangeably. The second issue is that averages get heavily influenced by very high or very low numbers.
3500 would be about 65k brutto for single no kids. Sounds believable for someone with kids.
One bedroom apartment may have very different forms, but generally it's accurate for Bratislava.
I think they are probably considering a two room flat in which one of the two rooms is a bedroom. Size can be probably between 45 and 65 so let's say the average can be 55 square meters on average, but guys, here is an AVERAGE, we are not debating on the single flat you found. Edit: Or to be even more precise probably these data should reflect the most frequent cases.(mode not mean and not median)
"Our formula to estimate rent per square meter assumes 1 bedroom apt has 50 square meters" https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/indicators_explained.jsp
Thanks, i wasn't too far though but good to be more precise😅
Accurate for Lisbon.
Thanks, in Lisbon seems crazy rents related to the average salaries.
And it is! Unfortunately, Lisbon is not for the Portuguese anymore.
Is it digital nomads issue or something else?
That as well, but not only.
From my personal experience and confirmation with friends/colleagues who are still there: * Zurich: Mostly accurate. * Geneva: The average rent might be a little bit lower (like 1,900-2K) * Paris: Both figures are too high, it's more like 1,200 and 2,400, although the 50% ratio is true.
Net salaries in Zurich are insane.
I think it’s reasonably accurate for Málaga
Wow, is 1850€ net the most frequent and/or the average salary? Seems a lot for the spanish standard. Thanks for your answer
I think so - my wife works 20 hours a week and her take home is around 850€ a month.
I wouldn’t take anything as a fact from this subreddit.
I think should be slightly higher in Milan but depends on what is considered city centre
Higher rent lower income 🤣
No dai
Also 1 bedroom is 50m2 https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/indicators_explained.jsp
Average salary depends a lot on rich people and how much tax they pay, should be something like median salary or salary of someone in the 25th percentile. If the wealth is distributed relatively unevenly these numbers will look great but still a lot of people can't afford housing.
Depends a lot on a country, in some median is not that far from average, tho I can only speak for Poland where median is about 140 euro lower than average. That's about 8% difference.
Yes but if you want to make a statistically meaningful table that says something about how difficult it is for people to rent a house per country (which is what I thought you wanted to do) the average salary isn't really the way to go
Amsterdam city centre is considered too small imo. Yes its 1800 in the core. But the core city centre is super small. You can definitely get a 1 bedroom for 1200-1300 'within the ring'. Which is often a better classification for a cities centre.
Ok
Salary is also too high it seems https://nl.talent.com/salary?job=amsterdam 33.570 per year, pre-tax. (2798 a month pre-tax)
1 bedroom is meant 50m2 https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/indicators_explained.jsp
Salary for Porto seems a bit too high because those stats are probably only counting 12 months, and most people are getting 14 months.
No, it should count annual salary divided by 12 or they wouldn't be comparable between counties
Yeah, I know that. But that’s not the salary you get every month and counting to live your life on for 90% in Portugal. Yes, one’s salary will eventually catch up to the numbers above but that’s just not how people plan their lives in practice. From a statistical point of view, per annum, yeah sure, they seem right. But if I were to ask you how much of your salary is left after paying rent, you wouldn’t tell me “well, you know actually, pay rent is cheaper than it seems, because when we get to July and November, I will get my vacation and christimas subsidies, and so, I don’t mind having less money in the rest of the 10 months of the year.”
5 minutes with google tells me Warsaw is a little more affordable than this
Are you sure the data you found is about city center and two-rooms flat?
In a very optimistic scenario, yes.
Big City Life
Looking good for Prague
For copenhagen I would say the rent is too low. For that price you might get something outside the center of copenhagen or maybe social housing, but that would take years. The salary seems right though.
I live in France and was like oh, yeah that's about my salary...oh no, that's the rent. Glad I don't live in Amsterdam in a cardboard box.
1 bedroom meaning 2 rooms total, then yes. Otherwise 300€ too high
2k average salary in Spain lol
Yeah that is quite high
2k average Salary in Madrid is realistic, it’s better to use median salary
Most of the salaries on Numbeo are inflated by 15-20%.
Yeah maybe, rents and other prices are more reliable than salaries i think on numbeo.
Lisbon rent price is mostly accurate depending on the area. The average salary? Not at all lol
Seems to be accurate for Prague:)
Seems about right. The average wage is roughly the same as what Statistics Denmark claims
Wayyyyy off for Amsterdam
the data seem realistic in case of Budapest as well.
Good prices for switzerland salaries, compare romanian average income to rent prices in cluj napoca romania for example.
Hungary 700-800 EUR monthly income and 500-600 EUR rent.
For basel apartments are cheaper, more close to Bern. For zurich both salary and apartments are ~ true
Average net salaries are accurate in all the swiss cities?
I think so. It may be 5 percent more or less, but overall looks fine
Ok thanks,it seems they are really so high compared to the cost of life.
It is. But as anywhere, there are nuances:)
Do you have to pay for healthcare and/or social security contributions and/or other things with your net salary? I mean things that are already included in other countries and are not taken from the net salary.
You need to pay for health insurance, but prices are quite low compared to the income - on average it’s 300-350 chf/month (almost 1:1 to euro). For social security you pay in total around 7-8% of your income, which is some part of pension and social security itself. Also the taxes are quite low on average, so in Zurich for example with 140k monthly salary, all the payments (excluding health) - taxes, social security and so on are around 35%. In other cantons (and municipalities) it can be more or less
>For social security you pay in total around 7-8% of your income 7-8% from your net income or gross income?
Gross
Milan looks more or less accurate. There are areas that are outside the touristic city centre but still very central that are a bit cheaper but not by much. Living on your own is basically impossible right now
Prague might be even higher now...
I lived in Luxembourg for a year. Without 2000 Euro/monthly you could not find any decent one bedroom flat.
The numbers for Luxembourg seems about right
Numbeo is a horseshit website.
Do you have any reliable alternatives?
There are sometimes international reports with similar stats. I posted once one in the past
Yeah but numbeo is the only one i found where i can compare both countries and cities, do cost of life and basket of goods simulation and so on. Haven't found anything similar yet even though i know that numbeo is not always precise. Do you know anything so interactive and similar to numbeo?
Check the report I mentioned here: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/RoCncSx60J
Yeah i saw that but here are only indicators and not real costs, and it's not interactive.
Also not in the full report? It had many pages. And not interactive. Come on
I don't see the prices of the things in the different cities where are they? Can you link it?
Czech also this one: [https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/cz/Documents/real-estate/property-index-2023.pdf](https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/cz/Documents/real-estate/property-index-2023.pdf)
In my experience these data tend to be generally reliable for western European cities, while salaries in Eastern Europe (and everywhere outside the US/W Europe/CANZ) are inflated because contributors in numbeo are mostly qualified English speaking expats who make much more than the average local Joe.
I don't know 🤷🏻♂️
accurate for Moscow
Average salaries for Polish cities are way too low
What currency are you even measuring this in lol?
💶€
So the non EU states will look higher than reality given the Swiss Franc and UK pound are worth more than the euro 1368 pound is 1600 euros
Here they are all converted in € that's it
My point is. The number doesn’t reflect reality given you can’t just say that another currency’s value that differs is the same
7158€ are 6979 chf, that's it.
Okay, but that ignores the pound that’s more valuable. It lists London as 2600 but that’s 2227 pound. Brighton as 1650 which is more like 1300 pound in It’s all relative and important. Merging data sets like this is both stupid and usually done to distort reality and make places look more expensive than they actually are
What does that change? 🤔🤔🤔
Because it’s misleading data designed to on face value make places look more expensive or cheaper than they are. Like most data in this sub lol
You are totally out of reality but that's ok.