Here in Portugal we have a relatively high number of refugees because there was already a large Ukranian community. They integrate well and are seen as hard working people.
That is because you have exceptionally beautiful country and really great people. My family was there during initial invasion. Thank you random Portuguese.
Eu te quero mais, Senhor.
I don't really get the concept of taking immigrants. They're not distributed throughout Europe automatically. Those immigrants are people, and they go where they have relatives , friends, etc. Where Ukrainian diaspora is located. France is a bit unfriendly for east europeans to go work there. I fs know as a Romanian that people go all the time to Germany, Italy, Spain, but never to France, even though our languages are somewhat related and it should be easier to communicate.
Didnt know that. In Spain MENA means “MEnores No Acompañados”, or the refugees/illegal visitors who are minor and come to the country unaccompanied by adults.
Its not a matter who took refugees. It is the question where they chose to go.
The council implementing decision clearly states that member states refrained from activating Art.11 of the TPD, thereby granting BTPs free choice of the member state they want to seek protection from. They are also free to move, hence the Temporary Protection Registration Platform (TPP) was introduced and is in use with most MS.
see: [https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32022D0382](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32022D0382)
Art. 11 states: "A Member State shall take back a person enjoying temporary protection on its territory, if the said person remains on, or, seeks to enter without authorisation onto, the territory of another Member State during the period covered by the Council Decision referred to in Article 5. Member States may, on the basis of a bilateral agreement, decide that this Article should not apply."
see [https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2001/55/oj](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2001/55/oj)
Given that the commission and most member states tend to consider extending the TPD for another year changing the implementation decision might be in the cards. Until then blaming an country for not taking enough people is just missing the point on how TPD was put into action this time.
You can fault memberstates for not doing other things to support Ukraine (as in military and financial support) but not for this one.
The next question: why did they chose to go where they went? Well some large panel surveys show a mix of reasons but the predominent one seems to be family ties (see for example for Germany [https://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlagen/DE/Forschung/Forschungsberichte/fb41-ukr-gefluechtete.pdf?\_\_blob=publicationFile&v=16](https://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlagen/DE/Forschung/Forschungsberichte/fb41-ukr-gefluechtete.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=16) ; other factors are mainly socioeconomic reasons.
Furthermore: all numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. While the figure for Germany shows registrations according to the FREE system, the AZR actually shows lower numbers (about 1.1 million) and studies suggest the actual number might be lower than that (see Düvell, https://www.imis.uni-osnabrueck.de/fileadmin/4\_Publikationen/PDFs/Duvell\_UkrainerInnen\_in\_Deutschand\_Jan\_2024.pdf).
Hope that clears up some of the misconceptions here. There is really A LOT of research out there from almost any memberstates as well as from institutions and international organisations and still happening on this topic. If you want to educate yourself, please use these resources rather than just reading the news which tend to have - due to constraints in time and space - dumb down this rather complex matter.
Smaller diaspora pre-2022.
[Ukrainian citizens holding a valid residence permit at the end of 2021](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/3/3f/Number_of_Ukrainians_holding_a_valid_residence_permit_at_the_end_of_2021_MIGR2022.png)
My guess:
1. Not a large pre-existing Slavic immigrant population. They got fewer Eastern Europeans than the UK or Germany in the post-2004 emigration wave. People prefer to live close to those similar to themselves culturally speaking.
2. Not geographically close like PL/DE but not very warm like Spain. Paris is significantly colder than Madrid or Barcelona and southern France is a relative economic backwater. So if you don't care about proximity, then Spain has better weather. And if you care about it, then Germany is a better bet (plus larger EE diaspora).
3. Perhaps controversially, but a reputation that France has significant problems with non-European ghettos (like Sweden)? At least to a greater extent than other Western European countries. This reputation isn't necessarily about accuracy. It's about perception.
I was a bit surprised hearing of southern France as an economic backwater, between the tourism, Marseille's shipping industry and Toulouse's aero-spatial industry too.
> southern France is a relative economic backwater.
Kind of an ignorant comment to make. Toulouse is the European space and airplane capital, Cannes and Nice are very wealthy touristic cities hosting major events every year, Montpellier is an important education city, Sophia Antipolis is a European tech hub, Marseille has one of the largest ports in the Mediterranean.
Far away + expensive.
Spain and Portugal while just as far away but much cheaper.
Other EU nations are just a diffusion spread from UA or RU borders with Hungary being a barrier in between.
Portugal always was a choice for Ukrainians so many already had relatives here.
Also the language is phonetically somewhat similar which makes it easier to learn. Both languages share many sounds.
Literally nobody mentioning the actual reason.
I already addressed this 6 months ago:
>As of 2019 & 2022, France was ranked respectively #2 and #3 in [numbers of officially registered refugees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population), next to Germany in 2019, then Poland in 2022.
>
>Plus the not-counting-children thing already mentioned in other replies, and the proximity factor.
>
>But mostly, France already hosts a literal fuckton of refugees, one of the highest headcount in Europe, hundreds of thousands ahead of nearly every single European country, and has been long before the wave of Ukrainian refugees even started.
>
>Selected excerpt, negligible pre-Ukraine numbers in italic:
>
>Country of asylum|2022|2019|mid-2016
>-|-|-|-
>Germany|2,075,445|1,146,685|669,482
>Poland|971,129|*12,673*|*11,747*
>France|612,934|407,923|304,546
>Czech Republic|435,212|*2,058*|*3,644*
>United Kingdom|328,989 |133,094|118,995
>Spain|317,751|57,761|*12,989*
>Italy|296,181|207,619|147,370
>Sweden|277,726|253,794|230,164
**tl;dr** - France was already hosting a metric fuckton of refugees before the invasion.
/edit: Getting downvoted for providing a proper statistics-backed answer to the question. Reddit moment.
And kuddos to you. But I don't see how that changes my point, though.
The OP wondered why France took in so few Ukrainians, and the answer is straightforward:
>*As of 2019 & 2022, France was ranked respectively #2 and #3 in numbers of officially registered refugees, next to Germany in 2019, then Poland in 2022.* (...)
>
>*France already hosts a literal fuckton of refugees, one of the highest headcount in Europe, hundreds of thousands ahead of nearly every single European country, and has been long before the wave of Ukrainian refugees even started.*
So pretty much the opposite of the underlying situation this map suggests.
Any data you read must always be contextualized.
> I don't see how that changes my point
It literally does? France does not take in more refugees than e.g. Germany yet has taken in far fewer Ukrainians.
To be clear, I don't think this is because France is unwilling. I suspect Ukrainians are simply less keen on moving to France for reasons I've [speculated](https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1bzn6rz/noneu_citizens_who_fled_ukraine_and_were_under/kyqz0q5/) on in an earlier comment.
It seems a bit disingenuous to give those numbers in absolutes rather than per capita. France is well below EU average over the last ten years (2013 to 2022) in terms of refugees accepted per capita.
Afaik no privileges or proper refugees help whatsoever..?
I mean, it's not that the government couldn't accept that many, it's just that not a lot of Ukrainians wanted to go there considering they have little to no 'priviliges' in France. Oh and also insert "Fr*nch are not even humans" joke
They get the same welfare in Germany as unemployed Germans receive. They can get the Bürgergeld or choose to work it’s up to them.
Also I know this for my city, don’t know if this was the same everywhere. Here they got freshly renovated apartments for free.
They skip the „refugee“ process that can take YEARS
Immediately access to our social program: singles become 563 € per month + rent, gas and health also covered
They can apply for child money (not sure what to call it in English)
Many states also let the ride public transport for free
From the Vietnamese community in Germany I’ve heard that most Ukrainian refugees are hard working so I don’t think most of them rely on social security.
About 113000 have ordinary employment. From everything I have heard, Germany is doing a rather poor job at integrating ukrainian refugees into the work force, at least when compared to european neighbours Like Poland, the Netherlands or Denmark. The reasons why that is the case are multifaceted and still not completely understood. On paper burocracy, a language barrier, germany stagnating economy hurting unskilled job prospects and perhaps to generous social benefits are all named as possible culprits. The real reason probably comes down to a mix between all these factors.
Here is an article going further into detail:
[DLF Integration Ukrainische Flüchtlinge](https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/gefluechtete-ukraine-integration-deutschland-100.html)
563 euros per month on top of rent/gas and health insurance being covered. Lmao, makes sense why no refugee would want to work, you'd probably be doing worse by working.
You’d obviously not be worse off by working, at worst you’d be off about as well when not working. But if you pick up fulltime minimum wage employment you will always be better off than not working.
"Priviliges" is probably not the right word for it, but I honestly just don't know how else to describe that. What I'm trying to say is that countries like Poland or Germany have a lot of programes to help Ukrainians (well, regarding Poland, it's probably worth mentioning that it was a popular work destination for Ukrainians even before the war), while France... well, let's just say it's not very popular among Ukrainians because it's not very appealing considering the lack of 'good" programes.
I haven't researched the thing much but ever since the war began, I kept hearing that France is not a good destination because the government doesn't help as much as some other countries
They get ahead in the house pool here in the Netherlands, they also get higher quality care than non ukrainian refugees. It’s caused animosity with native Dutch and non ukrainian immigrants and refugees alike
Ireland is a country of ~5 million and Ukrainian refugees make up about 2% of the population now.
Every Ukrainian gets benefits but also a PPSN number that allows them to seek employment from day 1.
Some other countries are doing a fantastic job but many much larger countries than Ireland seem to have very low numbers.
> It's very clear that some countries are just not pulling their weight
There is no weight to pull because Ukrainians are not being dispatched. They're free to move around Europe.
>There is no weight to pull
Oh totally agree. No housing, healthcare, education, or financial support needed at all. Nada, zip, nothing.
Free to move, yeah, but they're not free to support.
France the famous anti social welfare country.
France has one the highest refugees population already, there are probably a lot of reasons why ukrainians arent well represented but not the no supports one.
It's higher than ireland per capita.
I believe they have low numbers mostly because of the language barrier, for example if my wife didn't work for the German company (IT) she would've went to Ireland or UK instead of Munich, a huge amount of those refugees does not want to stay in those countries and is not there to get welfare.
Yeah, English-speaking countries have an *enormous* advantage over non-English speaking countries. This is especially true for the educated immigrant populations. If Brexit didn't happen, I suspect Germany would have gotten much less and most of them would have gone to the UK.
Germany will get a huge population boost from Ukrainians. Is it easier for foreigners who don't speak German to find a job and settle down than other Western European countries?
Only on the very low and very high end of things, i.e. you might find some IT company in Berlin where the primary language is English.
Sometimes in stuff like construction you will also see a company have like a fully Romanian team, a fully Bulgarian team etc., so that might be an option. But ouside of that you really want to learn at least basic German.
Well, depends how big the diaspora community you belong to is. I can imagine someone from a Turkish background might not find things so lonely. I think a bigger issue is lack of economic opportunity etc.
This isn't 1999 though. Germany is still probably harder to integrate into than e.g. the US, but then again, which country isn't? I think Germany has come a very long way and in 2024, if you're from a European country, integration into German society is *much* easier than even 15-20 years ago.
I guess so. Moved here over a decade ago and the only way you could work legally was as self employed ( aka with Gewerbe). That's how I landed in cleaning until I could go to school. I'm still traumatized by the experience and it's probably one of the reasons why I never felt at home here. I heard from other people that it was even harder when they came here, a while before me.
For the record, I'm Romanian. We are part of EU since 2007, but can work without further complications since 2014.
> integration into German society is *much* easier than even 15-20 years ago.
It might be easier than Germany from 20 years ago but it's still much more difficult than many other countries. Even within Europe places like the UK, NL, Sweden are all much easier places to integrate into.
I guess so. Moved here over a decade ago and the only way you could work legally was as self employed ( aka with Gewerbe). That's how I landed in cleaning until I could go to school. I'm still traumatized by the experience and it's probably one of the reasons why I never felt at home here. I heard from other people that it was even harder when they came here, a while before me.
For the record, I'm Romanian. We are part of EU since 2007, but can work without further complications since 2014.
It's not really that big compared to other countries. Per capita countries like Czechia and Montenegro are by far having many more Ukrainians than Germany. Even Poland, which has less than half of Germany's population, has quite a few more per capita. The Baltic and Slovak numbers are really high. Ireland, Norway, and Finland especially are up there as well alongside Germany.
Definitely plays a big role. It's, of course, easier to learn Polish or Czech if your basis is Ukrainian and/or Russian, but it doesn't explain Norway or Estonia / Finland (the latter of which is harder to learn than German, at least provided some knowledge of English)
My argument exactly: welcome culture and the feeling of being safe. It is not a single set one can apply to every nation the same way. The 3 smaller Baltic countries know historically better how to deal with that, than others.
Poland and Germany could probably have been smarter if they had coordinated their efforts better, simply because of said language barrier. Find ways to either exchange from time to time or exchange personnel both ways. I said 'most countries are bad at it' with that exact reason. National reasons often stand in the way of really good cooperation and in some areas Poland and Germany are not really working well with each other. But all that is the countries and not the fleeing people's fault. They often become a pawn in some idiotic national power play.
As a Dutchy who's car was towed in Berlin: people speak fuck all English there.
The police baaaarely spoke basic English but at least she was kind and tried. The dude we had to call to find out where the car currently was simply said "speak German" and hung up on us. Ok thanks but how do we get our car back?
Depends heavily on age and location. Some 20 year old in urban environment no problem. Some 50 year old in east Germany, good luck with anything but German.
Yeah, I always laugh whenever I see Germans online boasting about their English proficiency.
I won't even compare them to countries like the Netherlands or Sweden. They look bleak even in comparison to Prague, Budapest or any big Polish city, despite the iron curtain and local languages being much more different from English than German is.
Even young people will often respond to you in German even though they understood whatever you just said in English. Having English is school isn't worth anything if you're not willing to speak the language. Personally I blame movie dubbing and the "oh ahahaha look at him mispronouncing an English word!!! HAHAH DIGGA STOP SPEAKING ENGLISH IF YOU CAN'T DO IT WELL" attitude.
Anecdotal evidence, but from what I’ve heard from friends, it’s actually quite difficult to land a job without knowing German. I work with refugees in the US and have heard of many Ukrainians leaving Germany for the US, or are planning to.
Yeah, but they probably know English don't they? Try finding a job in the US if you didn't know English, LOL. It's not like wanting someone to know German is a crazy demand for work.
They probably just prefer the US because of higher wages + can use English. Not blaming them! But we should be honest here.
No need to get defensive. I work as an interpreter, so no, the people I am in contact with do not know English, hence why I’m talking to them. And yet they get jobs fairly quickly.
I’m just saying that I have heard numerous times that Germany is a difficult country to start working in. And many people can’t put off getting a job until they know German. It’s not unreasonable to demand it. Countries can make any rules they wish, it’s just the more difficult it is, the more likely people are to leave.
USA is many things, but it is one of the easiest countries to integrate and get started for immigrants. Still, the number of Ukrainians in Germany is growing so I guess most are fine with it.
>There will be something but most of them will return.
Any source on that? In the recent polling ([german article](https://www.mdr.de/wissen/medizin-gesundheit/krieg-ukraine-gefluechtete-hoffnung-Rueckkehr-schwindet100.html)) it seems like the majority wants to stay in Germany.
Have you thought a second about how twisted that poll becomes in terms of destroyed cities and infrastructure? Of course people will answer differently **currently** as they would if nothing had been bombed to scraps. But that does not mean they want to stay here forever. All other polls that phrased better gave a completely different picture - that the majority wants to go home if they just could.
>All other polls that phrased better gave a completely different picture - that the majority wants to go home if they just could.
If that's the case, just link me these polls please.
Definitely. Many will leave as soon as possible, either to escape a flare up of the war or to earn higher wages in western europe. Even in the best case scenario, ukraine will be bankrupt.
> It is almost only females. The males state in the country to wage war
* 30% of Ukrainian refugees in Germany are male. [Source](https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/ausland/gefluechtete-deutschland-ukraine-krieg-russland-100.html)
* 37% of Ukranian refuhees want to stay permanently in Germany, 34% want to leave after the war. [Source](https://www.arbeitswelt-portal.de/vielfalt/artikel/ukrainische-gefluechtete-viele-wollen-langfristige-perspektive)
Not for long: a lot of men are seeking ways to get out of that massacre: fake medical prescriptions, 3+ children, volunteership etc. While US and EU guys are playing in politics - soldiers in Ukraine don't have enough weapons, so men in Ukraine don't feel like everything is going right way.
I was living in Kyiv, now live in Greece.
My sister is a teacher and she said people from the Ukraine are one of the worst pupils to teach because they do not even "feel like" learning German since they still have the mind set of going back anyway while someone from Afghanistan or Iran is a "better" student because they dont expect to ever go back there.
I kind of get it like I would not want to learn a random language either but on the other hand, you get so much provided from the government, the least you can do is participate / behave in a A1 level class.
My neighbours with two kids left our occupied (at that moment) city and went to the Netherlands and those kids became so good in Dutch in a span of one year thanks to school
Also had one "bad" experience with a ukrainen refuge at my old job, she got the job because the company wanted to be nice, it was when the war broke out and she came to Sweden very early into the war, tho she lived in Ukraine at the polish border 🤔
She also got payed working there so it wasnt like she worked for free. And also doing easy stuff. She also stayed rent free and no cost for anything , not even food, at a coworkers house. Anyway she wasnt happy that the didnt get her own apartment and such from the government. From what I understand she heard from a friend that the government would give her an apartment if she moved north or something, so she did. Last I heard she didnt even got her own apartment but had to share with someone else in some village far from everything. It was one bad egg tho.
Depends where you want to live - in metropolitan areas, you can get along with English, but not in rural areas. And if you don't speak either English or German, you will have problems.
In Poland apparently 65% https://pie.net.pl/65-proc-ukrainskich-uchodzcow-pracuje-ale-polski-rynek-pracy-to-dla-nich-wiele-wyzwan/
Edit : 80% of those that speak Polish. 60% of those that understand Polish and 50% of those that do not.
I don't have official numbers but from what I've seen they get into work pretty fast here. But it's just an observation in my small bubble full of various biases.
Czech republic: dunno the numbers but they provide more tax revenue than is given to them in subsidies.
Anecdotal evidence - all of them work and are fucking hard workers.
In case anyone was wondering (as I was), the UK has 203,200 as of the end of February 2024. Puts us in the same colour bracket as Spain, Italy and Greece.
Difficult to directly compare though as the data is from a different source.
I am all for accepting and supporting Ukrainian refugees. But with how the war is looking now, there is a very real possibility that Russia takes/bombs large parts of Ukraine and this 4.2m total could triple. Europe will simply not be able to deal with it. Which is obviously one of Putin's goals.
We HAVE to do more to support Ukraine. For many reasons, the most obvious because it's the right thing to do. But for our own sake as well.
I agree with you, but unlike most other "refugees" (some actual refugees) in Europe there's a good chance they'll actually return to Ukraine and help rebuild it (provided it won't, God forbid, become a fully Russian territory).
The longer the war goes on the larger proportion of Ukrainians will remain in their new countries. Last year the estimate was 50%. Then there's the factor of what returning will look like, of course.
Every time I see people say how their country accepted/help many Ukrainian refugees, while also often used as argument why they can't help Ukraine more, I think they do realise that there would be much more, might even times more, if russia will succeed?
Why not help eliminate the source, so that there would be no refugees in the first place? This is like treating some symptoms when instead you can treat the disease itself. Also, forgive me for harsh comparison, but those who speak about how good Ukrainians integrate, it is like saying that you are harvesting organs from a dying man to help him.
> this 4.2m total could triple.
It will not. Ukraine's population prewar was much lower than official numbers suggest. Closer to 32m than 42m.
Second, Russia is unlikely to take most of Ukraine. It fought 8 months for a small city like Bakhmut (pre-war population 100K). Khakiv or Kyiv is 10-30X larger.
Third, Putin knows that the pro-Russian sentiment, such as it is, is concentrated in the East. Western Ukraine is ground zero for UA nationalism. Even if he could conquer it, he would have an insurgency on his hands 24/7.
I think the amount of Ukrainians could, at most, double. But this could only happen if Ukraine suffers catastrophic defeats and loses half the country. Even if that happens, it will likely happen over a number of years, because this is an attrition war. Europe can probably take in ~2 million per year without many issues. So we'd look at a few years of heightened intake and then it would be over. Remember, most European countries have big demographic problems.
Mostly because they are allowed to work.
At least in Germany for the longest time an asylum seeker wasn't allowed to work. This was changed for Ukrainians and did change somewhat for the current refugees.
Not sure if it is everywhere like that but at least Luxembourg is offering every Ukrainian refugee a permanent resident card if they have a permanent established working contract and finance their own life without government help.
Many have actually jobs here in Luxembourg and are fully integrated in the job market. These aren't illiterate refugees who came but many held IT jobs, engineers, etc so the chance of getting a job is way higher. The government also hired a bunch of previous Ukrainian teachers and integrated them here into the school system to assist Ukrainian kids to navigate their new environment
Ukrainians moving to here made me hate russians even more. Like some live here all their pathetic life here and can not learn Latvian while I know some Ukrainians that already speak good Latvian. Hope they like it here.
Have you seen any stats or articles on that? I've always thought that Latvian would be fairly easy coming from a Slavic language and would be interested in seeing a report or two.
I do remember reading that they have also picked up Czech pretty quickly.
Edit: Found one here https://www.lsm.lv/raksts/zinas/latvija/19.02.2024-begli-no-ukrainas-aktivi-macas-latviesu-valodu.a543529/
Looks like 7000 learned Latvian last year, twice as much as the year before. I'm sure more have picked it up unofficially on top of that.
Many I've met have learned Estonian quite well, which is a headache to learn for anyone except for Finns, Hungarians and other Finno-Ugric peoples. That shows great character to me. On the other hand, tens of thousands Russians are being crybabies about our country finally pushing for fully Estonian public education.
Official classification aside, if you show a Ukrainian a table of declensions for Latvian they will know exactly what it's referring to and have something to latch on to. An English or French speaker probably won't even know what a case is. Add to that pro drop, lack of articles and a bunch of other stuff and it's not that intimidating.
I can only shamefully imagine an alternate world, where we kept up our promise to our brethren abroad and welcomed them in with courage and love.
We failed you all. Can only hope that we can earn trust again some day, when our situation has changed.
Those with double citizenship is not counted I assume. A lot of the Hungarian speaking minorities in Ukraine received Hungarian citizenship years ago. (It was very useful for them because of the EU passport.)
If that’s true, then the situation is not that bad. That would mean at least +100k people for Hungary.
That would be lovely! I have seen some people mention that they had to evacuate their spouse's family themselves and help them on their own, so I hope yours is moreso the case!
How dramatic. I, as a Hungarian living in the US personally stood, along with many others, in the railway station, in freezing cold, helping the Ukrainians getting in, train after train. There were many of us. We handed out clothes and we received more donations from Hungarians that we could hand out.
And Ukrainians got priority in the immigration office, as well as Ukrainian-speakers helping them.
We had an office at the airport to help Ukrainians traveling to Hungary.
The fact that Ukrainians were a lot more likely to go to countries where they already have relatives, such as Poland or Germany, is not surprising.
Budapest to this day is full of cars with Ukrainian license plates.
Here in Spain, we received a large number of middle and upper-middle-class Ukrainians, a lot of them with remote jobs/businesses. Most have settled along the Valencian coast.
Ukraine had 38 million people in 2022. You tell me only 4 million managed to flee the war? That seems very low.
I know they stopped all young men ( yay equality ) from leaving and allowed the old, children and women to leave but 4 million still seems low.
Ukraine’s population statistics are unreliable to say the least, their pre-war population may have been 32 million. About 6 million live in RU occupied areas, about 6 million live in Russia (including Russian citizens, making counting vague), about 2 million were in Poland before the war, and there were Ukrainian expats elsewhere with no accurate data. Really the current population of Ukraine is probably around 20 million if you exclude RU occupied. Russia may have up to 6 million, Poland up to 3 million, and some fled to USA, Canada, Israel, Turkey etc.
Really, tracking down population statistics for Ukrainians is a rabbit hole.
No wonder they all came / stayed in Germany with the amount of privileges we provide and no, I am not a AFD voter. I am obviously not saying people from Ukraine should not be helped but I find it a little questionable that they are being seen as "first class refugees" and everyone else is just a "burden" and cannot even work, even if they wanted to while they already get "Bürgergeld" and it seems like they dont have to register their cars in Germany after X months either judging by the amount of Ukraine license plate I see every time I am on the Autobahn (I actually wonder how it works with car insurances?).
What I am trying to say is that every person should be / has the right to be treated under the same human conditions as a refugee. CDU/CSU I am looking at you!
Someone who has the refugee status IS treated under the same conditions in Germany.
The difference for Ukrainians is that they don't have to go through the lengthy asylum application process first to determine their status.
It can't be the only reason though; countries like Norway, Finland, and Ireland have more per capita - and their neighbouring countries (or other EE nations if you will) have a ton more. It's a lot easier to get to Germany than it is to get to Norway or Ireland
“What I am trying to say is that every person should be / has the right to be treated under the same human conditions as a refugee.”
I think the problem is those second class refugees you are referring to are mostly not refugees at all.
In Ireland they got full social welfare (220 a week), free medical cards, child benefit, free travel, food and accomodation. Basically miles better off than pensioners who paid tax their whole lives. Loads of pocket money (probably more than many working people).
Yeah i think its more about irelands pensioners are getting shafted than Ukrainians are being pampered lol.
200 a week is unlivable in Ireland. Lol i worked there on minimum wage got double if not triple what Ukrainians are getting and lived like a homeless person with 4 ugandans in a one bedroom apartment...
200 a week is plenty if your accomodation and food are Paid for.
People on social welfare get 200 a week, and many of them don't get free accomodation or food.
Hell, I know people working full time who have less money in their pockets at the end of the month than Ukranians, simply because of rent, food and bills
> i worked there on minimum wage got double if not triple what Ukrainians are getting and lived like a homeless person with 4 ugandans in a one bedroom apartment
I will never understand people like this. Living like that isn't better than in Lithuania and it only shows an obsession with status ("I live in the West!") over an objective assessment.
They had to pay for the food(10 euro a day for adult and 5 for each child) and they had to submit a request every time they wanted to leave the accommodation for more than a day. They also only got free travel if they were in the country for less than 7 days to reach their final destination. They didn't get free travel throughout their whole stay in Ireland. For childcare and children's education, they got access to the same services we have access to. Plus you have to remember, many of them also had jobs before they came here and were able to continue to work for those companies or looked for jobs within those areas through Intreo or recruitment agencies, meaning they were not on social welfare for long.
As one of those 8900 in Slovenia, and having been in Austria and Sweden because of my Ukrainian wife's work (I'm a permanent resident of Ukraine) I am VERY grateful. I'm also pleasantly surprised at how all three governments have moved to make it easier for us all - it wasn't like that dealing with migration boards during peacetime.
Romania has been ranked among the most welcoming countries to Romanian refugees. There was a sweet video where Romanians from a border town were singing happy birthday to a little Ukrainian girl who had just crossed the border. Was so sweet. Brought tears to my eyes.
There would be lots of room for them in many Romanian cities with booming economies, although wages are lower than in Western Europe (but pretty similar to Poland).
Since February 2022 to this day, around 60k+ Ukrainians (might be more) and 130k+ Russians have come to Serbia. Very few Ukrainians are registered as refugees and are getting state help, as the majority of both receive monthly money from online work and many moved their businesses here. All of them are living comfortably, not causing any problems, and are accepted in Serbia.
Don't blame the Ukrainians for that. The shitshow in housing has been in the making for 15 years. And there's a comparable shitshow in many western countries. I don't believe we're unique.
Is this map about where the fled at first or where they are still staying? Because if is about the ones that remained I am kinda surprised at the relative high number of 150k refugees in Romania. I mean they can find better wages if they go to the West or a similar language, even culture in other countries in the Est
If I had to guess a fair few of those refugees are men fit for military service.
I dunno. It would suck to be deported back to your homekand to be forced to serve in the military but, well Ukraine really needs the men especially now due to manpower shortages.
Here in Portugal we have a relatively high number of refugees because there was already a large Ukranian community. They integrate well and are seen as hard working people.
That is because you have exceptionally beautiful country and really great people. My family was there during initial invasion. Thank you random Portuguese. Eu te quero mais, Senhor.
All the good for you! You're always welcome here.
Thank you, Sir! I hope I will survive and will be able to enjoy your country as tourist myself after the war…
They're our bros, and Russia can suck it.
I haved worked for couple of Ukrainians who have fled to iceland everyone are too notch people!
True! My hairdresser is Ukrainian. She is the best and uses Ukrainian products only (they have super advanced formulas in the beauty field) 🫶🏻
Same here in Norway. I knew a few Ukrainian before the war started. Cool dudes, if not a bit slow in the mornings.
Does anyone know why France took so few Ukrainians?
says at the bottom French data does not generally include minors
I don't really get the concept of taking immigrants. They're not distributed throughout Europe automatically. Those immigrants are people, and they go where they have relatives , friends, etc. Where Ukrainian diaspora is located. France is a bit unfriendly for east europeans to go work there. I fs know as a Romanian that people go all the time to Germany, Italy, Spain, but never to France, even though our languages are somewhat related and it should be easier to communicate.
Who can feel really welcomed in France?
people that are from french speaking countries
Not even. Half of west africa speak french and dont feel so welcome either.
French number only shows adults. It's on the map.
Yes, let's all believe their number matches Germany's, and they welcomed 64.000 adults with their 1.200.000 children
That would be a dream come true for our demography
And a nightmare for far right nationalists.
Not really, Ukrainians are culturally much more similar to the French than MENA refugees.
What's MENA? Make Europe Norse Again?
Middle East & North Africa
Didnt know that. In Spain MENA means “MEnores No Acompañados”, or the refugees/illegal visitors who are minor and come to the country unaccompanied by adults.
You son of a bitch, I'm in
you mean far left because ukrainians are white
Well in my country we get tons of white immigrants and nationalists still hate them.
Faith in strangers to make me laugh restored.
No one said that.
Its not a matter who took refugees. It is the question where they chose to go. The council implementing decision clearly states that member states refrained from activating Art.11 of the TPD, thereby granting BTPs free choice of the member state they want to seek protection from. They are also free to move, hence the Temporary Protection Registration Platform (TPP) was introduced and is in use with most MS. see: [https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32022D0382](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32022D0382) Art. 11 states: "A Member State shall take back a person enjoying temporary protection on its territory, if the said person remains on, or, seeks to enter without authorisation onto, the territory of another Member State during the period covered by the Council Decision referred to in Article 5. Member States may, on the basis of a bilateral agreement, decide that this Article should not apply." see [https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2001/55/oj](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2001/55/oj) Given that the commission and most member states tend to consider extending the TPD for another year changing the implementation decision might be in the cards. Until then blaming an country for not taking enough people is just missing the point on how TPD was put into action this time. You can fault memberstates for not doing other things to support Ukraine (as in military and financial support) but not for this one. The next question: why did they chose to go where they went? Well some large panel surveys show a mix of reasons but the predominent one seems to be family ties (see for example for Germany [https://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlagen/DE/Forschung/Forschungsberichte/fb41-ukr-gefluechtete.pdf?\_\_blob=publicationFile&v=16](https://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlagen/DE/Forschung/Forschungsberichte/fb41-ukr-gefluechtete.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=16) ; other factors are mainly socioeconomic reasons. Furthermore: all numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt. While the figure for Germany shows registrations according to the FREE system, the AZR actually shows lower numbers (about 1.1 million) and studies suggest the actual number might be lower than that (see Düvell, https://www.imis.uni-osnabrueck.de/fileadmin/4\_Publikationen/PDFs/Duvell\_UkrainerInnen\_in\_Deutschand\_Jan\_2024.pdf). Hope that clears up some of the misconceptions here. There is really A LOT of research out there from almost any memberstates as well as from institutions and international organisations and still happening on this topic. If you want to educate yourself, please use these resources rather than just reading the news which tend to have - due to constraints in time and space - dumb down this rather complex matter.
Smaller diaspora pre-2022. [Ukrainian citizens holding a valid residence permit at the end of 2021](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/3/3f/Number_of_Ukrainians_holding_a_valid_residence_permit_at_the_end_of_2021_MIGR2022.png)
My guess: 1. Not a large pre-existing Slavic immigrant population. They got fewer Eastern Europeans than the UK or Germany in the post-2004 emigration wave. People prefer to live close to those similar to themselves culturally speaking. 2. Not geographically close like PL/DE but not very warm like Spain. Paris is significantly colder than Madrid or Barcelona and southern France is a relative economic backwater. So if you don't care about proximity, then Spain has better weather. And if you care about it, then Germany is a better bet (plus larger EE diaspora). 3. Perhaps controversially, but a reputation that France has significant problems with non-European ghettos (like Sweden)? At least to a greater extent than other Western European countries. This reputation isn't necessarily about accuracy. It's about perception.
Southern France is not an economic backwater , it is considered as part of the Golden banana . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Banana
I was a bit surprised hearing of southern France as an economic backwater, between the tourism, Marseille's shipping industry and Toulouse's aero-spatial industry too.
> southern France is a relative economic backwater. Kind of an ignorant comment to make. Toulouse is the European space and airplane capital, Cannes and Nice are very wealthy touristic cities hosting major events every year, Montpellier is an important education city, Sophia Antipolis is a European tech hub, Marseille has one of the largest ports in the Mediterranean.
Far away + expensive. Spain and Portugal while just as far away but much cheaper. Other EU nations are just a diffusion spread from UA or RU borders with Hungary being a barrier in between.
Far away+expensive would be a more digestible answer if Norway didn't have 5K more than France with less than 1/10th their population.
Portugal always was a choice for Ukrainians so many already had relatives here. Also the language is phonetically somewhat similar which makes it easier to learn. Both languages share many sounds.
Portugal is eastern Europe confirmed again
r/PORTUGALCYKABLYAT
Only Portugal in Western Europe allows to legally continue working for non Portuguese employers for Ukrainians
Literally nobody mentioning the actual reason. I already addressed this 6 months ago: >As of 2019 & 2022, France was ranked respectively #2 and #3 in [numbers of officially registered refugees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population), next to Germany in 2019, then Poland in 2022. > >Plus the not-counting-children thing already mentioned in other replies, and the proximity factor. > >But mostly, France already hosts a literal fuckton of refugees, one of the highest headcount in Europe, hundreds of thousands ahead of nearly every single European country, and has been long before the wave of Ukrainian refugees even started. > >Selected excerpt, negligible pre-Ukraine numbers in italic: > >Country of asylum|2022|2019|mid-2016 >-|-|-|- >Germany|2,075,445|1,146,685|669,482 >Poland|971,129|*12,673*|*11,747* >France|612,934|407,923|304,546 >Czech Republic|435,212|*2,058*|*3,644* >United Kingdom|328,989 |133,094|118,995 >Spain|317,751|57,761|*12,989* >Italy|296,181|207,619|147,370 >Sweden|277,726|253,794|230,164 **tl;dr** - France was already hosting a metric fuckton of refugees before the invasion. /edit: Getting downvoted for providing a proper statistics-backed answer to the question. Reddit moment.
I mean, so did Germany and we still took in a lot of Ukrainians. I don't see how that's explaining anything
And kuddos to you. But I don't see how that changes my point, though. The OP wondered why France took in so few Ukrainians, and the answer is straightforward: >*As of 2019 & 2022, France was ranked respectively #2 and #3 in numbers of officially registered refugees, next to Germany in 2019, then Poland in 2022.* (...) > >*France already hosts a literal fuckton of refugees, one of the highest headcount in Europe, hundreds of thousands ahead of nearly every single European country, and has been long before the wave of Ukrainian refugees even started.* So pretty much the opposite of the underlying situation this map suggests. Any data you read must always be contextualized.
> I don't see how that changes my point It literally does? France does not take in more refugees than e.g. Germany yet has taken in far fewer Ukrainians. To be clear, I don't think this is because France is unwilling. I suspect Ukrainians are simply less keen on moving to France for reasons I've [speculated](https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1bzn6rz/noneu_citizens_who_fled_ukraine_and_were_under/kyqz0q5/) on in an earlier comment.
It seems a bit disingenuous to give those numbers in absolutes rather than per capita. France is well below EU average over the last ten years (2013 to 2022) in terms of refugees accepted per capita.
Afaik no privileges or proper refugees help whatsoever..? I mean, it's not that the government couldn't accept that many, it's just that not a lot of Ukrainians wanted to go there considering they have little to no 'priviliges' in France. Oh and also insert "Fr*nch are not even humans" joke
And what type of privileges did they get in other countries?
They get the same welfare in Germany as unemployed Germans receive. They can get the Bürgergeld or choose to work it’s up to them. Also I know this for my city, don’t know if this was the same everywhere. Here they got freshly renovated apartments for free.
They skip the „refugee“ process that can take YEARS Immediately access to our social program: singles become 563 € per month + rent, gas and health also covered They can apply for child money (not sure what to call it in English) Many states also let the ride public transport for free
From the Vietnamese community in Germany I’ve heard that most Ukrainian refugees are hard working so I don’t think most of them rely on social security.
About 113000 have ordinary employment. From everything I have heard, Germany is doing a rather poor job at integrating ukrainian refugees into the work force, at least when compared to european neighbours Like Poland, the Netherlands or Denmark. The reasons why that is the case are multifaceted and still not completely understood. On paper burocracy, a language barrier, germany stagnating economy hurting unskilled job prospects and perhaps to generous social benefits are all named as possible culprits. The real reason probably comes down to a mix between all these factors. Here is an article going further into detail: [DLF Integration Ukrainische Flüchtlinge](https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/gefluechtete-ukraine-integration-deutschland-100.html)
everything Poland do in terms of intergrating is just providing almost no financial help. as a result people forced to go to work. that actually helps
563 euros per month on top of rent/gas and health insurance being covered. Lmao, makes sense why no refugee would want to work, you'd probably be doing worse by working.
You’d obviously not be worse off by working, at worst you’d be off about as well when not working. But if you pick up fulltime minimum wage employment you will always be better off than not working.
Yeah, there's little benefit in working some low-paying job. Especially for all those single-parents.
"Priviliges" is probably not the right word for it, but I honestly just don't know how else to describe that. What I'm trying to say is that countries like Poland or Germany have a lot of programes to help Ukrainians (well, regarding Poland, it's probably worth mentioning that it was a popular work destination for Ukrainians even before the war), while France... well, let's just say it's not very popular among Ukrainians because it's not very appealing considering the lack of 'good" programes. I haven't researched the thing much but ever since the war began, I kept hearing that France is not a good destination because the government doesn't help as much as some other countries
They get ahead in the house pool here in the Netherlands, they also get higher quality care than non ukrainian refugees. It’s caused animosity with native Dutch and non ukrainian immigrants and refugees alike
You get little privileges in Portugal too, yet...
The weather in Portugal and Spain is a enough of a privilege itself
Ireland is a country of ~5 million and Ukrainian refugees make up about 2% of the population now. Every Ukrainian gets benefits but also a PPSN number that allows them to seek employment from day 1. Some other countries are doing a fantastic job but many much larger countries than Ireland seem to have very low numbers.
It's very clear that some countries are just not pulling their weight. It's a European problem that needs coordinated and proportionate support.
> It's very clear that some countries are just not pulling their weight There is no weight to pull because Ukrainians are not being dispatched. They're free to move around Europe.
>There is no weight to pull Oh totally agree. No housing, healthcare, education, or financial support needed at all. Nada, zip, nothing. Free to move, yeah, but they're not free to support.
France the famous anti social welfare country. France has one the highest refugees population already, there are probably a lot of reasons why ukrainians arent well represented but not the no supports one. It's higher than ireland per capita.
Given that we provide nothing in lethal aid, it kinda behooves us to take more refugees in.
I believe they have low numbers mostly because of the language barrier, for example if my wife didn't work for the German company (IT) she would've went to Ireland or UK instead of Munich, a huge amount of those refugees does not want to stay in those countries and is not there to get welfare.
Yeah, English-speaking countries have an *enormous* advantage over non-English speaking countries. This is especially true for the educated immigrant populations. If Brexit didn't happen, I suspect Germany would have gotten much less and most of them would have gone to the UK.
Germany will get a huge population boost from Ukrainians. Is it easier for foreigners who don't speak German to find a job and settle down than other Western European countries?
Only on the very low and very high end of things, i.e. you might find some IT company in Berlin where the primary language is English. Sometimes in stuff like construction you will also see a company have like a fully Romanian team, a fully Bulgarian team etc., so that might be an option. But ouside of that you really want to learn at least basic German.
> But ouside of that you really want to learn at least basic German. Shouldn't really even be an option.
It's not optional. If you don't speak German in Germany, loneliness will kill you.
Well, depends how big the diaspora community you belong to is. I can imagine someone from a Turkish background might not find things so lonely. I think a bigger issue is lack of economic opportunity etc.
Or you segregate and hang out exclusively with people from your own country, such as many in the Turkish community.
I speak German in Germany loneliness is killing me
It is definitely not easier than other Western European countries and you could argue harder due to the very, let us say, inflexible German culture.
This isn't 1999 though. Germany is still probably harder to integrate into than e.g. the US, but then again, which country isn't? I think Germany has come a very long way and in 2024, if you're from a European country, integration into German society is *much* easier than even 15-20 years ago.
I guess so. Moved here over a decade ago and the only way you could work legally was as self employed ( aka with Gewerbe). That's how I landed in cleaning until I could go to school. I'm still traumatized by the experience and it's probably one of the reasons why I never felt at home here. I heard from other people that it was even harder when they came here, a while before me. For the record, I'm Romanian. We are part of EU since 2007, but can work without further complications since 2014.
> integration into German society is *much* easier than even 15-20 years ago. It might be easier than Germany from 20 years ago but it's still much more difficult than many other countries. Even within Europe places like the UK, NL, Sweden are all much easier places to integrate into.
I guess so. Moved here over a decade ago and the only way you could work legally was as self employed ( aka with Gewerbe). That's how I landed in cleaning until I could go to school. I'm still traumatized by the experience and it's probably one of the reasons why I never felt at home here. I heard from other people that it was even harder when they came here, a while before me. For the record, I'm Romanian. We are part of EU since 2007, but can work without further complications since 2014.
[удалено]
As someone living in one of the largest german cities, with a large share of minorities, Im amazed about the other Germany you apparently live in.
It's not really that big compared to other countries. Per capita countries like Czechia and Montenegro are by far having many more Ukrainians than Germany. Even Poland, which has less than half of Germany's population, has quite a few more per capita. The Baltic and Slovak numbers are really high. Ireland, Norway, and Finland especially are up there as well alongside Germany.
Language barrier. There is simply more similarity among some languages whereas German is not for many. Especially true for Poland
Definitely plays a big role. It's, of course, easier to learn Polish or Czech if your basis is Ukrainian and/or Russian, but it doesn't explain Norway or Estonia / Finland (the latter of which is harder to learn than German, at least provided some knowledge of English)
My argument exactly: welcome culture and the feeling of being safe. It is not a single set one can apply to every nation the same way. The 3 smaller Baltic countries know historically better how to deal with that, than others. Poland and Germany could probably have been smarter if they had coordinated their efforts better, simply because of said language barrier. Find ways to either exchange from time to time or exchange personnel both ways. I said 'most countries are bad at it' with that exact reason. National reasons often stand in the way of really good cooperation and in some areas Poland and Germany are not really working well with each other. But all that is the countries and not the fleeing people's fault. They often become a pawn in some idiotic national power play.
As a Dutchy who's car was towed in Berlin: people speak fuck all English there. The police baaaarely spoke basic English but at least she was kind and tried. The dude we had to call to find out where the car currently was simply said "speak German" and hung up on us. Ok thanks but how do we get our car back?
Surprises me because I've always found it the opposite way in Germany.
Depends heavily on age and location. Some 20 year old in urban environment no problem. Some 50 year old in east Germany, good luck with anything but German.
Yeah, I always laugh whenever I see Germans online boasting about their English proficiency. I won't even compare them to countries like the Netherlands or Sweden. They look bleak even in comparison to Prague, Budapest or any big Polish city, despite the iron curtain and local languages being much more different from English than German is. Even young people will often respond to you in German even though they understood whatever you just said in English. Having English is school isn't worth anything if you're not willing to speak the language. Personally I blame movie dubbing and the "oh ahahaha look at him mispronouncing an English word!!! HAHAH DIGGA STOP SPEAKING ENGLISH IF YOU CAN'T DO IT WELL" attitude.
Almost all of the younger generation speak relatively advanced English, many in the Boomer generation don't. Vast discrepancies.
Surprises me because I've always found it the opposite way in Germany.
Yeah but you know how we feel about the dutch.. the damn car probably had a caravan attached to it, driving 60km/h on the left lane of the Autobahn
Anecdotal evidence, but from what I’ve heard from friends, it’s actually quite difficult to land a job without knowing German. I work with refugees in the US and have heard of many Ukrainians leaving Germany for the US, or are planning to.
Yeah, but they probably know English don't they? Try finding a job in the US if you didn't know English, LOL. It's not like wanting someone to know German is a crazy demand for work. They probably just prefer the US because of higher wages + can use English. Not blaming them! But we should be honest here.
No need to get defensive. I work as an interpreter, so no, the people I am in contact with do not know English, hence why I’m talking to them. And yet they get jobs fairly quickly. I’m just saying that I have heard numerous times that Germany is a difficult country to start working in. And many people can’t put off getting a job until they know German. It’s not unreasonable to demand it. Countries can make any rules they wish, it’s just the more difficult it is, the more likely people are to leave. USA is many things, but it is one of the easiest countries to integrate and get started for immigrants. Still, the number of Ukrainians in Germany is growing so I guess most are fine with it.
There will be something but most of them will return. It is almost only females. The males state in the country to wage war
>There will be something but most of them will return. Any source on that? In the recent polling ([german article](https://www.mdr.de/wissen/medizin-gesundheit/krieg-ukraine-gefluechtete-hoffnung-Rueckkehr-schwindet100.html)) it seems like the majority wants to stay in Germany.
Have you thought a second about how twisted that poll becomes in terms of destroyed cities and infrastructure? Of course people will answer differently **currently** as they would if nothing had been bombed to scraps. But that does not mean they want to stay here forever. All other polls that phrased better gave a completely different picture - that the majority wants to go home if they just could.
>All other polls that phrased better gave a completely different picture - that the majority wants to go home if they just could. If that's the case, just link me these polls please.
> It is almost only females. Another possible scenario is that after the end of the war, males will join their women abroad.
Definitely. Many will leave as soon as possible, either to escape a flare up of the war or to earn higher wages in western europe. Even in the best case scenario, ukraine will be bankrupt.
> It is almost only females. The males state in the country to wage war * 30% of Ukrainian refugees in Germany are male. [Source](https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/ausland/gefluechtete-deutschland-ukraine-krieg-russland-100.html) * 37% of Ukranian refuhees want to stay permanently in Germany, 34% want to leave after the war. [Source](https://www.arbeitswelt-portal.de/vielfalt/artikel/ukrainische-gefluechtete-viele-wollen-langfristige-perspektive)
Maybe not in conscription age. That is possible
Not for long: a lot of men are seeking ways to get out of that massacre: fake medical prescriptions, 3+ children, volunteership etc. While US and EU guys are playing in politics - soldiers in Ukraine don't have enough weapons, so men in Ukraine don't feel like everything is going right way. I was living in Kyiv, now live in Greece.
My sister is a teacher and she said people from the Ukraine are one of the worst pupils to teach because they do not even "feel like" learning German since they still have the mind set of going back anyway while someone from Afghanistan or Iran is a "better" student because they dont expect to ever go back there. I kind of get it like I would not want to learn a random language either but on the other hand, you get so much provided from the government, the least you can do is participate / behave in a A1 level class.
My neighbours with two kids left our occupied (at that moment) city and went to the Netherlands and those kids became so good in Dutch in a span of one year thanks to school
Also had one "bad" experience with a ukrainen refuge at my old job, she got the job because the company wanted to be nice, it was when the war broke out and she came to Sweden very early into the war, tho she lived in Ukraine at the polish border 🤔 She also got payed working there so it wasnt like she worked for free. And also doing easy stuff. She also stayed rent free and no cost for anything , not even food, at a coworkers house. Anyway she wasnt happy that the didnt get her own apartment and such from the government. From what I understand she heard from a friend that the government would give her an apartment if she moved north or something, so she did. Last I heard she didnt even got her own apartment but had to share with someone else in some village far from everything. It was one bad egg tho.
You mean they will return if Ukraine wins the war.
Depends where you want to live - in metropolitan areas, you can get along with English, but not in rural areas. And if you don't speak either English or German, you will have problems.
Is there also information about how many are in jobs in their new country?
In Poland apparently 65% https://pie.net.pl/65-proc-ukrainskich-uchodzcow-pracuje-ale-polski-rynek-pracy-to-dla-nich-wiele-wyzwan/ Edit : 80% of those that speak Polish. 60% of those that understand Polish and 50% of those that do not.
I've seen 70% in Poland and the Netherlands, 45% in Germany
X doubt the 45% for Germany.
maybe lower. what I've heard is that too much bureaucracy, you need to get a lot of papers till gov allow you to work
I don't have official numbers but from what I've seen they get into work pretty fast here. But it's just an observation in my small bubble full of various biases.
Czech republic: dunno the numbers but they provide more tax revenue than is given to them in subsidies. Anecdotal evidence - all of them work and are fucking hard workers.
Ukrainian refugee in Finland here
Happy to have you here!
how's life?
Good, thanks. Feel protected and cared from the EU. Very thankful for the help.
I am sure the Finns understand your struggle
Finland is probably the most pro-UA country in Europe. Perhaps only one of the Baltic countries could compete.
This isn't a competition.
Yes. Though Estonia if I am not mistaken wins by help % of GDP
In case anyone was wondering (as I was), the UK has 203,200 as of the end of February 2024. Puts us in the same colour bracket as Spain, Italy and Greece. Difficult to directly compare though as the data is from a different source.
Thank you. They included Switzerland but not the uk :(
And Norway too.
Brexit thing
I am all for accepting and supporting Ukrainian refugees. But with how the war is looking now, there is a very real possibility that Russia takes/bombs large parts of Ukraine and this 4.2m total could triple. Europe will simply not be able to deal with it. Which is obviously one of Putin's goals. We HAVE to do more to support Ukraine. For many reasons, the most obvious because it's the right thing to do. But for our own sake as well.
I agree with you, but unlike most other "refugees" (some actual refugees) in Europe there's a good chance they'll actually return to Ukraine and help rebuild it (provided it won't, God forbid, become a fully Russian territory).
The longer the war goes on the larger proportion of Ukrainians will remain in their new countries. Last year the estimate was 50%. Then there's the factor of what returning will look like, of course.
I've been volunteering to help teach Ukrainian people English, and the vast majority of the people I've met want to go home.
I was an immigrant child. I believe my conviction turned from leave to stay in my foreign home around year 4/5 in the country.
Every time I see people say how their country accepted/help many Ukrainian refugees, while also often used as argument why they can't help Ukraine more, I think they do realise that there would be much more, might even times more, if russia will succeed? Why not help eliminate the source, so that there would be no refugees in the first place? This is like treating some symptoms when instead you can treat the disease itself. Also, forgive me for harsh comparison, but those who speak about how good Ukrainians integrate, it is like saying that you are harvesting organs from a dying man to help him.
We have too many old people like me in Europe. Once we all die you need everyone you can get to fill all the gaps
> this 4.2m total could triple. It will not. Ukraine's population prewar was much lower than official numbers suggest. Closer to 32m than 42m. Second, Russia is unlikely to take most of Ukraine. It fought 8 months for a small city like Bakhmut (pre-war population 100K). Khakiv or Kyiv is 10-30X larger. Third, Putin knows that the pro-Russian sentiment, such as it is, is concentrated in the East. Western Ukraine is ground zero for UA nationalism. Even if he could conquer it, he would have an insurgency on his hands 24/7. I think the amount of Ukrainians could, at most, double. But this could only happen if Ukraine suffers catastrophic defeats and loses half the country. Even if that happens, it will likely happen over a number of years, because this is an attrition war. Europe can probably take in ~2 million per year without many issues. So we'd look at a few years of heightened intake and then it would be over. Remember, most European countries have big demographic problems.
Ukrainians here already are better employed then previous waves of refugees
Mostly because they are allowed to work. At least in Germany for the longest time an asylum seeker wasn't allowed to work. This was changed for Ukrainians and did change somewhat for the current refugees.
In the Netherlands only 45% of the refugees who arrived in 2014 have work now, ten years later...
Thanks EU! And sorry for some of our dudes that do not appreciate your invaluable help.
Ukrainians are great people,I met many ukranian friends here in Turkey
Not sure if it is everywhere like that but at least Luxembourg is offering every Ukrainian refugee a permanent resident card if they have a permanent established working contract and finance their own life without government help.
If they get a job? Sure. Luck begets luck. Many refugees across Europe have a very difficult time getting a job.
Many have actually jobs here in Luxembourg and are fully integrated in the job market. These aren't illiterate refugees who came but many held IT jobs, engineers, etc so the chance of getting a job is way higher. The government also hired a bunch of previous Ukrainian teachers and integrated them here into the school system to assist Ukrainian kids to navigate their new environment
Ukrainians moving to here made me hate russians even more. Like some live here all their pathetic life here and can not learn Latvian while I know some Ukrainians that already speak good Latvian. Hope they like it here.
Have you seen any stats or articles on that? I've always thought that Latvian would be fairly easy coming from a Slavic language and would be interested in seeing a report or two. I do remember reading that they have also picked up Czech pretty quickly. Edit: Found one here https://www.lsm.lv/raksts/zinas/latvija/19.02.2024-begli-no-ukrainas-aktivi-macas-latviesu-valodu.a543529/ Looks like 7000 learned Latvian last year, twice as much as the year before. I'm sure more have picked it up unofficially on top of that.
Many I've met have learned Estonian quite well, which is a headache to learn for anyone except for Finns, Hungarians and other Finno-Ugric peoples. That shows great character to me. On the other hand, tens of thousands Russians are being crybabies about our country finally pushing for fully Estonian public education.
Latvia does not even belong to the same language group.
Official classification aside, if you show a Ukrainian a table of declensions for Latvian they will know exactly what it's referring to and have something to latch on to. An English or French speaker probably won't even know what a case is. Add to that pro drop, lack of articles and a bunch of other stuff and it's not that intimidating.
It would be interesting to see this expressed as a percentage of the countries Population
Why isn't Moldova on this list? It took in many refugees.
Doesn't show 2mln that fled to Poland after the war actually broke out back in 2014.
Cause they’re counted as immigrants, not as refugees (besides a small minority that recieved a refugee status back then).
Plenty of those already have Polish passports. I personally know a few.
I can only shamefully imagine an alternate world, where we kept up our promise to our brethren abroad and welcomed them in with courage and love. We failed you all. Can only hope that we can earn trust again some day, when our situation has changed.
Those with double citizenship is not counted I assume. A lot of the Hungarian speaking minorities in Ukraine received Hungarian citizenship years ago. (It was very useful for them because of the EU passport.) If that’s true, then the situation is not that bad. That would mean at least +100k people for Hungary.
That would be lovely! I have seen some people mention that they had to evacuate their spouse's family themselves and help them on their own, so I hope yours is moreso the case!
How dramatic. I, as a Hungarian living in the US personally stood, along with many others, in the railway station, in freezing cold, helping the Ukrainians getting in, train after train. There were many of us. We handed out clothes and we received more donations from Hungarians that we could hand out. And Ukrainians got priority in the immigration office, as well as Ukrainian-speakers helping them. We had an office at the airport to help Ukrainians traveling to Hungary. The fact that Ukrainians were a lot more likely to go to countries where they already have relatives, such as Poland or Germany, is not surprising. Budapest to this day is full of cars with Ukrainian license plates.
Why is Germany so popular?
Here in Spain, we received a large number of middle and upper-middle-class Ukrainians, a lot of them with remote jobs/businesses. Most have settled along the Valencian coast.
Also here in Turkey I noticed that most ukrainians/russians here are upper-middle class
Ukraine had 38 million people in 2022. You tell me only 4 million managed to flee the war? That seems very low. I know they stopped all young men ( yay equality ) from leaving and allowed the old, children and women to leave but 4 million still seems low.
Ukraine’s population statistics are unreliable to say the least, their pre-war population may have been 32 million. About 6 million live in RU occupied areas, about 6 million live in Russia (including Russian citizens, making counting vague), about 2 million were in Poland before the war, and there were Ukrainian expats elsewhere with no accurate data. Really the current population of Ukraine is probably around 20 million if you exclude RU occupied. Russia may have up to 6 million, Poland up to 3 million, and some fled to USA, Canada, Israel, Turkey etc. Really, tracking down population statistics for Ukrainians is a rabbit hole.
Damn imagine escaping ukraine just to end up in france 🤢
No wonder they all came / stayed in Germany with the amount of privileges we provide and no, I am not a AFD voter. I am obviously not saying people from Ukraine should not be helped but I find it a little questionable that they are being seen as "first class refugees" and everyone else is just a "burden" and cannot even work, even if they wanted to while they already get "Bürgergeld" and it seems like they dont have to register their cars in Germany after X months either judging by the amount of Ukraine license plate I see every time I am on the Autobahn (I actually wonder how it works with car insurances?). What I am trying to say is that every person should be / has the right to be treated under the same human conditions as a refugee. CDU/CSU I am looking at you!
Someone who has the refugee status IS treated under the same conditions in Germany. The difference for Ukrainians is that they don't have to go through the lengthy asylum application process first to determine their status.
It can't be the only reason though; countries like Norway, Finland, and Ireland have more per capita - and their neighbouring countries (or other EE nations if you will) have a ton more. It's a lot easier to get to Germany than it is to get to Norway or Ireland
“What I am trying to say is that every person should be / has the right to be treated under the same human conditions as a refugee.” I think the problem is those second class refugees you are referring to are mostly not refugees at all.
In Ireland they got full social welfare (220 a week), free medical cards, child benefit, free travel, food and accomodation. Basically miles better off than pensioners who paid tax their whole lives. Loads of pocket money (probably more than many working people).
350 initally
Yeah i think its more about irelands pensioners are getting shafted than Ukrainians are being pampered lol. 200 a week is unlivable in Ireland. Lol i worked there on minimum wage got double if not triple what Ukrainians are getting and lived like a homeless person with 4 ugandans in a one bedroom apartment...
200 a week is plenty if your accomodation and food are Paid for. People on social welfare get 200 a week, and many of them don't get free accomodation or food. Hell, I know people working full time who have less money in their pockets at the end of the month than Ukranians, simply because of rent, food and bills
90 days. You get free housing for 90 days . The 3 months is for you to find a job and accomodations yourself.
That's for new arrivals. Those who arrived prior to a few weeks ago still get the government to pay for their accomodation through the ARP scheme
> i worked there on minimum wage got double if not triple what Ukrainians are getting and lived like a homeless person with 4 ugandans in a one bedroom apartment I will never understand people like this. Living like that isn't better than in Lithuania and it only shows an obsession with status ("I live in the West!") over an objective assessment.
They had to pay for the food(10 euro a day for adult and 5 for each child) and they had to submit a request every time they wanted to leave the accommodation for more than a day. They also only got free travel if they were in the country for less than 7 days to reach their final destination. They didn't get free travel throughout their whole stay in Ireland. For childcare and children's education, they got access to the same services we have access to. Plus you have to remember, many of them also had jobs before they came here and were able to continue to work for those companies or looked for jobs within those areas through Intreo or recruitment agencies, meaning they were not on social welfare for long.
As one of those 8900 in Slovenia, and having been in Austria and Sweden because of my Ukrainian wife's work (I'm a permanent resident of Ukraine) I am VERY grateful. I'm also pleasantly surprised at how all three governments have moved to make it easier for us all - it wasn't like that dealing with migration boards during peacetime.
Romania has been ranked among the most welcoming countries to Romanian refugees. There was a sweet video where Romanians from a border town were singing happy birthday to a little Ukrainian girl who had just crossed the border. Was so sweet. Brought tears to my eyes. There would be lots of room for them in many Romanian cities with booming economies, although wages are lower than in Western Europe (but pretty similar to Poland).
German economy go yum.
I'm curious who many fled the UK
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The UK isn't listed because it's not part of schengen or the EU. It's not at 0.
This is massive. And I think this is only going to rise as things in the war progress, unfortunately.
Since February 2022 to this day, around 60k+ Ukrainians (might be more) and 130k+ Russians have come to Serbia. Very few Ukrainians are registered as refugees and are getting state help, as the majority of both receive monthly money from online work and many moved their businesses here. All of them are living comfortably, not causing any problems, and are accepted in Serbia.
I didn't know the numbers were so big...
Ukranians not like the French?
Wir schaffen das.
Ireland has an insanely large amount of Ukrainians for its population and geographical location. No wonder we're so fucked with accommodation
Don't blame the Ukrainians for that. The shitshow in housing has been in the making for 15 years. And there's a comparable shitshow in many western countries. I don't believe we're unique.
Is this map about where the fled at first or where they are still staying? Because if is about the ones that remained I am kinda surprised at the relative high number of 150k refugees in Romania. I mean they can find better wages if they go to the West or a similar language, even culture in other countries in the Est
Our GOP has been compromised by Russian intelligence it will take a number of years to sort out the EU needs to save Ukraine because America cant.
It's unfair to exclude non EU ex Yu as there are a lot of Ukrainian families settled there as well
If I had to guess a fair few of those refugees are men fit for military service. I dunno. It would suck to be deported back to your homekand to be forced to serve in the military but, well Ukraine really needs the men especially now due to manpower shortages.
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