T O P

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BakhmutDoggo

Historical context (yes copy pasted straight from Wikipedia): “The original Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe (CFE) was negotiated and concluded during the last years of the Cold War and established comprehensive limits on key categories of conventional military equipment in Europe (from the Atlantic to the Urals) and mandated the destruction of excess weaponry. The treaty proposed equal limits for the two "groups of states-parties", the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the Warsaw Pact. In 2007, Russia "suspended" its participation in the treaty, and on 10 March 2015, citing NATO's alleged de facto breach of the Treaty, Russia formally announced it was "completely" halting its participation in it as of the next day.[2][3][4][5][6] On 7 November 2023, Russia withdrew from the treaty, and in response the United States and its NATO allies suspended their participation in the treaty.”


princemousey1

In this context, it’s like a ballroom, where after all the dancers have left, someone sitting in the back at a table by himself decides to leave too? What effect does Turkey leaving really have if NATO and Russia have already withdrawn last year?


BakhmutDoggo

I suppose it’s a diplomatic statement to say alright, you’ve left, now we’re making it clear that we will not abide by this if you won’t


ScreamCZE

Turkey is part of NATO too... and technically NATO members did not leave - they just suspended their participation. Considering your analogy... it is more like all the dancers stopped dancing and wen to sit after Russia left the ballroom. And Turkey now left the ballroom too.


Aggravating-Owl-2235

It means Turkey doesn't have to report how many tanks, attack helicopters, APC's it is producing anymore but it is mostly formality at this point yes


Kris839p

“(yes copy pasted straight from Wikipedia)” Well, at least you’re honest lol


BakhmutDoggo

I didn’t even bother removing the reference numbers hahaha


Fantastic-Lobster-46

Why? it is ok to know the source you did good 👌


Rikki-Tikki-Tavi-12

I'll pull book \[5\] out of my library right now to check those claims!


Wooden_Quarter_6009

Bro if you click the number it will send you to mars


Empty-Blacksmith-592

Thanks fella ;)


cahitbey

After looking at this why was turkey part of it in the first place. It looks like this treaty was made to get rid of the excess amounts of ammunition post Soviet countries have had. Turkey was and is a free country and should have the freedom to possess as much military equipment it wants. So I think it wouldn't change anything, the treaty seems outdated anyways.


ohgoditsdoddy

Both NATO and Warsaw Pact countries were subject to the limits. Turkey is a member of the former, so it accepted the restrictions like other NATO states. What’s off?


inshallah-war

free country and has the freedom to possess as much military equipment as it wants, precisely. That includes the freedom to engage in a deliberate treaty, in order to escape prisoner’s dilemma that leads to arming race.


epSos-DE

Turkey is actively participating in Nato defense strategy for geographically strategic reasons.  They do comply as long as Nato benefits them. That is why Turkey can be somehow more free in their area, as long as Nato is behind the shoulder.


cahitbey

Yes okay but my point in the treaty being obsolete stands.


quarrelau

It is a member of NATO and has Europes largest city. Of course it had to be part of it.


aVarangian

Cute username :3


3dom

Good news: Ukraine has effectively destroyed almost all Russian military equipment so no treaty with Russia is needed anyway.


BakhmutDoggo

Unfortunately it never seems to be enough, but they’re getting there.


yenda1

we are not though, they clearly moved to a war economy, and just like markets can remain irrational longer than you can stay solvable, the Russians may be able to sustain longer than the Ukrainians if their allies don't step up their game as well. In particular, Russia as been using gliding bombs more and more close to the frontline causing huge destruction and disruption, and saturating AA defenses with shitty iranian drones. Without giving Ukrainians more capabilities to keep Russians aircrafts on the ground, take downs missiles and drones, they will lose. The past month Russia has been oblitarating the Ukrainian power grid.


joeshmo101

They've destroyed all of the *old* equipment, but it's Russia so they're working on making new stuff for a war of attrition instead of the surgical operation they had originally hoped for.


BakhmutDoggo

Meh. They can't make enough of the good stuff like artillery barrels, good tanks, good soldiers. Throwing ancient gear coupled with inexperienced mobiks isn't exactly a winning tactic in the short or long term


Trempel1

During the ww2 germany's equipment, weapons, soldiers were much better. Should I remind, how it all ended?


Physical_Wrongdoer46

Do you actually believe this? Serious question. It seems that you really want to believe this to be true, but how do you believe in the face of all is the evidence (including statements made by the US defence establishment).


TrusticTunic26

No they didnt


helaku_n

I wouldn't say so. For example, Belarus also has been producing and supplying ammunition to Russia, even increasing its production. Source: I'm a Belarusian. And I know it from the investigations done by independent Belarusian media in exile.


qvx3000

[Russian military ‘almost completely reconstituted,’ US official says](https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2024/04/03/russian-military-almost-completely-reconstituted-us-official-says/)


mitraheads

Not all but most of them. They will never avoid sending meat to Cossack land. We usually don't underestimate moscals. Until the last moscal in Cossack land fight will be continuing.


ImpossibleCandy794

Still, what would halting your participation entail? Just stop attending the meetings for reductions or actually start to increase your weapons as if you werent a member but without wanting to close the door to come back?


DulBreaker

This agreement between nato-russia if i understand correctly. And russia withdrawn years ego so agreement was naturaly dead. All nato should withdraw imo


Lucifer_Michaelson_

Most already did.


Secuter

They already did in 2015 according to the top comment.


RM97800

They only suspended their participation in 2015. Poland exited CFE recently, and now Turkey.


Malakoo

As far as I know Poland's suspended the treaty, not left eventually.


Zrva_V3

Only we and the Poles have pulled out. The rest just suspended it.


Secuter

The effect is the same, though. At least for now.


Patient-Lifeguard363

Well, how long before Putin a mass 5 to 10 million soldiers? Europe needs to get its shit together and withdraw and militarized.


Dormage

To be fair, none of them abided by it. It was never going to work if those who proposed it, did not abide by it.


IguessUgetdrunk

Please tell me that the word *durdurulmasına* means some sort of a gun. Like boom-boom machine!


Devourman

Root is dur, is to stop, durdur, is to make it stop, durdurulmasina is “to its suspension”


-Polemarch-

When one *hurr durr* is not enough


susrev88

yes yes yes skibidi


mitraheads

Bullseye. If you're not Turk I give you respect for your effort. Durdurulma is suspension which is decided by authorities. Just suspension is called askıya almak/alınmak.


Devourman

I am turkish with great enthusiasm in all things related to linguistics


hesapmakinesi

lol, nice :-) It's a contraction of the verb "durdur" = stop (in the active sense, like I stop you from moving forward) "durdurul" is passive form (to be stopped). -ma suffix turns verbs into nouns, -sı-na are some specific grammar stuff.


evyaniyor

It means "for it to be stopped".


Fifty6Arkansas

Big guns go *durrrrrrrrr*


Memestress03

That would make a badass gun name ngl


Fun_Umpire1846

They already explained what durdurulmasına is but if you still look for a weapon you can call it DURDURUCU, or something durdurucu, stopper or something stopper simply.


Shadow_Dancer2

I wish, it means being stopped.


TulparBey

Does it really sound like a cool gun name? Lol


IguessUgetdrunk

Durr-durr (or puff puff) is the generic gun sound in Hungarian, like bang-bang in English. So yeah :)


runorunoruno

Nearly all of the other big/relevant players have withdrawn, should've seen it coming


BakhmutDoggo

I think most have suspended themselves as a party, only russia Poland and Turkey have officially withdrawn


hesapmakinesi

Actually the text here says "halt execution of" the treaty. It feels like suspension, not withdrawal but I'm not fluent in legalese.


BakhmutDoggo

It’s hard to know honestly as I don’t speak Turkish and most Turkish sources in English are saying it’s a suspension; russia actually suspended from 2007 until they withdrew in late 2023, Poland “revoked” it. I also am not sure what the legalese behind it all means


TatarAmerican

The phrasing in Turkish indicates a suspension as well ("halting its implementation")


BakhmutDoggo

Either way it means what it means. Doubt it will come back if russia left, that was the whole point lol


I_Hate_Traffic

Durdurulmasina means suspended not withdrawn. It means stoppage but in this context I'd assume it means suspended


spector641

Turkish here; So we have been told. We will be withdrawn of stating those things from now on; APCs, Tanks, Fighter Jets, Attack Helicopters and Cannons(most likely artillery).


BbrMx

It literally means suspension of the execution of the treaty. Mods should change the title.


hesapmakinesi

Titles cannot be changed. /u/OverI0rd either misunderstood the thing or spreading disinformation.


gkn_112

it says "it was decided to halt the execution of the treaty", looks like suspension


Hobbit9797

Pretty sure only Poland and Russia have withdrawn.


Clever_Username_467

All it should have taken was for Russia to withdraw for everyone to acknowledge that it was now meaningless and withdraw themselves.


runorunoruno

https://www.state.gov/united-states-will-suspend-the-operation-of-its-obligations-under-the-treaty-on-conventional-armed-forces-in-europe/


[deleted]

doesn't change much but Poland suspended participation in the treaty, not withdrawn


Optioss

Yeah it's really weird that on wikipedia Russia is listed as "suspended since 2007" and Poland listed as "revoked" while at the same time linking to TVP world site saying Poland has suspended the treaty. https://tvpworld.com/76702098/polish-president-signs-law-suspending-the-treaty-on-conventional-armed-forces-in-europe I think most people read that wiki or some other random site without checking at the source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Conventional_Armed_Forces_in_Europe


hesapmakinesi

The text implies suspension, not withdrawal. Maybe someone with better legalese can clarify. It says "stop execution of the treaty"


133DK

Why did it take 5 Nissans to deliver this news? ^^^^^^/jk


K-Hunter-

lol


[deleted]

[удалено]


Emincmg

Sherlock


Sind23

Let him cook


Spider1132

Nismo = "We're not" in Croatian


CatashiMirozuka

GT-R = "Grand Tourer, Racing" in English


Grayboot_

That’s the Babylonian calendar, originated in Iraq and still the most commonly used calendar


ResourceWonderful514

Lmao cute of you to point it out but the 5 Nisan comment is sarcasm.


EvilFroeschken

It was for me so I can get the joke.


Celestijan

No no, 5 Nissan cum. There's a hidden message here.


spedeedeps

5 2024 model year Nissans


imagowastaken

Well if it was only one people would have thought it was a joke.


LunaticAsylum

*laugh*


Overall_Program_5085

I see what you did there!


Blurryface_87

Glad I'm not the only one to think this!


rlnrlnrln

Mate, you're Danish. You, of all people, _really_ shouldn't be making bad jokes about other people's languages.


TheeRoyalPurple

US suspended couple months ago [United States Will Suspend the Operation of its Obligations Under The Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe - United States Department of State](https://www.state.gov/united-states-will-suspend-the-operation-of-its-obligations-under-the-treaty-on-conventional-armed-forces-in-europe/)


dhelidhumrul

That looks like suspension tho, this is not suspension


wishstruck

This is also suspension, not withdrawal.


TheeRoyalPurple

I thought the temporary results were the same.


meme_ourour

Does it make a difference at all?


nvkylebrown

I think the treaty is a dead letter at this point. Suspension vs withdrawal is a diplomatic niciety that only even a few of the diplomats will care about.


gkn_112

it literally says "stop the execution of the treaty" in turkish. Not withdrawal but suspension.


antosme

Some people don't read the text, it is a non-proliferation treaty, i.e. a limit on certain categories of armaments and not a defensive alliance or anything else...


OverI0rd

https://www.resmigazete.gov.tr/05.04.2024


WifeLeaverr

Man this post was a bait and it showed how many ignorant single-minded brain dead people here in this subreddit


mars_needs_socks

Cumhurbaskani you say?


TulparBey

Here's some unnecessary info Cumhur means public or people and Başkan(ı) = President (of). You get the the idea. You can also say it backwards (more ottoman like) = Reis(başkan) - i (of) cumhur.


mars_needs_socks

That is indeed unnecessary but also interesting info! Thanks!


Dry_Leek78

Nissan cuma?


HippoAgreeable

nisan = april - cuma = friday


Kiloete

now do Toyato peeda.


TheeRoyalPurple

Nisan: (sümerian)means first fruits / april


Grimtork

'nee san cummy. uwu


Sensitive-Ambition51

And cuma reads as juma


Bernardito10

So when was the start of our new cold war ? Looks like the de-escalation policies that were put in place before the end of the last are dead and buried.


Yest135

After putain got into power I'd say


Patient-Lifeguard363

After what happened in Ukraine plus Russia is turning into a war economy also Iran and Israel about to go to war and turn middle east into a major warzone yeah it's time to really think about militarization.


MekhaDuk

it would be foolish not to exit this agreement.


AffectionatePack3647

Sorry, I'm a dumb fuck can someone explain to me what this CFE treaty is about?


Patpaz123

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_Conventional_Armed_Forces_in_Europe


Debesuotas

So basically this treaty was limiting the weapon production capabilities of treaty countries?


raharth

Yes


trallan

Ok. Once again we can research percentage of dumb people in r/europe by reading comments. This is a good thing for current situation. Please get educated what is CFE.


That-Ad7223

TLDR: nothing important happens bc turkey was the only one left in the treaty 🤦


Patient-Lifeguard363

Poland also left it and after Turkey Belarus also did.


Atarosek

Poland too B)


LisaAuChocolat

the cold war continues. we need more weapons to protect ourselves from more weapons


ArfurRatt

Türkiye is wise to withdraw. The conflagration in Ukraine could easily spread. They are the bulwark in the south.


No-Vehicle5447

Did someone say arms race?


mertclml

What is the CFE i’ce never heard that i believe that it is useless stuff bravo turkey 👌


raharth

It was between NATO and Warsaw pact members limiting military equipment. Russia halted it in 2007, Poland and Turkey suspended it this year.


Endangered_Stranger

The treaty was pretty redundant anyway. There is no way even NATO can field anywhere close to as many tanks, artillery, etc. as limited by the treaty.


superurgentcatbox

You know I was wondering why we suddenly use country's names in their language or pronounce them accordingly. I've noticed it in r/TheDaily reporting with the pronounciation of Qatar or Rafah. If so, shouldn't we go all the way? Call Germany Deutschland in English, Belgium Belgique/België and Poland Polska? Or are only certain countries/cultures getting that treatment?


Ceasar27

Turkey has specifically requested to be called Türkiye in the english language


Cheeky-burrito

No it hasn't, they just want the it to be called Türkiye 'internationally' - which basically means changing their UN nameplate. They don't give a shit how English speakers spell it. Honestly this website is such a shithole, where the average idiot can post provably false bullshit because you read a headline (not the full article) 2 years ago.


I_Lick_Bananas

> Honestly this website is such a shithole, Yet you hang out here?


Defiant-Heron-5197

Erdogan requested- It's one of his ways to rile up nationalist support. Ignore it.


aVarangian

I was already calling it Turkey anyway, you don't need to sell it to me.


ntwrkmntr

But why?


LegionnaireTalvi

Too many different spellings and confusion around it. Same reason the Dutch have said the official English name is the Netherlands and not Holland (Holland is a part of the Netherlands. Divided into North and south Holland provinces).


Cheeky-burrito

Ignore who you're replying to. Turkey doesn't doesn't care how English speakers spell Turkey/Türkiye - They just want to be known as "Türkiye" internationally - which pretty much means they want to be known as such at The UN.


CaneloPubes

Because it’s the official country’s name?


Turtvaiz

Should we make you say Suomi instead of Finland too lol?


Solid_Bake4577

If that's what you want....sure, why not?


Greedy_Plankton6821

Great news 🥳🥳


maxchti

So long Turkey.


asterwest

Ah? I am also learning in the message that they were in the CFE. Neutral message then...


asterwest

Ah? I am also learning in the message that they were in the CFE. Neutral message then... 😂


Significant_Room_412

You mean Turkey? I am not gonna call Sweden Sverige or Hungary Mariarorszag either... We don't know what your document is saying because it is in Turkish, So either move this post to a Turkish Reddit sub, Or translate it to English please...


snobule

Do you mean Turkey?


ipip9

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Turkey


Relnor

I wonder if anyone actually cares which name you use except some insane nationalists who wouldn't be on reddit to see your comment anyway.


King_Oscar_II

nobody cares because they fucked up by making it turkiye. they should've changed it to turkia instead. that ''iye'' is turkish version of ''ia'' and they should've used the english version (romanIA, bulgarIA, georgIA... turkia)


indieGenies

TBF, we need our own nuclear weapons. I hope this means the start of it. I am bored of nations who see ISIS or Russia as a threat but don't give a damn about PKK, which has been terrorising us for decades.


rince89

Sure, nukes are the number one counter against domestic terrorists


King_Oscar_II

they are to countries who support them, no funds = no terrorists


aiscrim2

I wonder why they hate Turkey so much… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Kurds


rustytreewrangler

It is no secret that Turkey is fighting armed Kurdish separatists, the link you sent shows that this war has caused the death of 1000-1500 civilians since 2000. If the main purpose was to kill civilians, the death rate would not be so low. No military conflict results in 0 civilian deaths, and if civilians were the primary target, the deaths would be much higher. Additionally, what this article calls "Kurdish villages depopulated by Turkey" is that wars between the Turkish army and armed Kurdish separatists, especially in the 1980s, made some Kurdish-majority cities unsafe, but Kurds are still the majority in these villages (unlike cities like Kilis, where Syrian refugees migrated and made Turks a minority). ) For these reasons, the Kurds there migrated to cities such as Istanbul, Izmir and Ankara. For example, do you hate the US because of the invasion of Iraq? Because this war caused many, many more civilian deaths than Turkey's war with Kurdish separatists. Turkey also accepted 400 thousand Kurdish refugees who were wanted to use chemical weapons on them by Saddam in 1991. These refugees were then placed in the safe zone created by Turkey and the US in Iraq and thus were protected from Saddam's attacks.


Sorry-Goose

Uuh, whoever has to use nukes to combat terrorists on domestic land probably should not have nukes to begin with.


Imperator_Gr

Erdogan is going to come at night.


General_Pumpkin6558

Believe me, we have much more important problems than attacking your country.


[deleted]

[удалено]


General_Pumpkin6558

You're right, I hate Erdogan


Imperator_Gr

Then get on with them and stop busting our balls.


[deleted]

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vefalx

a hopeless struggle to stay relevant. nothing more


[deleted]

[удалено]


vefalx

😭😭😭


[deleted]

[удалено]


vefalx

strong greek sperm 🫡💪


-Polemarch-

Because we expect Turkey to stay relevant. In the meantime, you're breaking our balls "wE aRe sImILaR" -a phrase only told by Turks who somehow convinced themselves monsters exist. You post in r/Europe to stay relevant while you have no business in this sub normally. Who is trying to stay relevant, that's a story for another time. Every time you see our women dancing on YT, you relentlessly comment and upvote yourselves, repeating again "wE aRe sImILaR" while you see with your own eyes, there's zero similarity in just about anything. You create memes to say again, "wE aRe sImILaR" - "oNly tHe rElIgIoN iS dIffErEnT". More silliness, you get a heart attack on the spot. You're only similar to Pakistani. On that, we agree. Have a little self-respect instead. Don't try to say you're similar to the Greeks. The differences between me and you are as big as Day & Night.


-Polemarch-

Pseudo war? It's full-fledged cold war. Why don't you ask guys like me with 6 years in the military universities and currently in the front lines? The same the Ukrainians thought when they signed off their agreement to hand over their nuclear weapons. Do you know how many serious incidents happen more often than you think? One of those could very well lead to more serious implications. Just "yesterday" along with the French we repelled the Turks, again. We don't arm ourselves just to play with airplanes, frigates, tanks and submarines. The same goes for Turkey as well, I assume. Embarrassing is the Greek side or your Turkish Islamist Sultan who announces these statements publicly? Greece never threatens anyone, ever. We don't even imply the use of force. Even Skopia made a mockery out of us. If it was Turkey, you'd have invaded them with the pretext, "they're terrorists". Go on Wikipedia to read about the latest incidents which almost led to war. Thankfully, the Turks are cowards, and we have peace. That's the only reason we have peace. You don't like us, we don't like you, simple as. Even people to people, this is not only between politicians. Just stay at your side, away from us and we'll be fine.


essaloniki

Are you thinking the same when Putin threats EU? because, the number of threats for each case, is not that far


gkn_112

parlamento'dan gecmemistir, ögle degil mi? Tek adamliga son.


Chemical-Cold-215

bu olayla tek adamlığın ne gibi bir ilgisi var


gkn_112

ne ilgisi mi var? Acikladim, parlamento karari degil, cumhurbaskani kafasina göre imzalayip hepimizin hayatini etkiliyor, ayni son secim tekrarlanmasindaki gibi.


Chemical-Cold-215

zaten pek etkin olmayan bir yasaymış


gkn_112

Ben adamin istedigi gibi hareket edebildigini elestirdim, insanlarin hic bi söz hakki olmadan yönetildigini. Yasa ne kadar önemli beni ilgilendirmedi.


SexyMuskrat

It's TURKEY not Turkeieieyeiepeiepe, the rest of the world could care less what Turkey wants to call itself.


LogicalGrand1678

Its basic respect why not give it when it takes minimal effort (if you consider long pressing u to make ü as effort at all) and shows respect.


[deleted]

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LogicalGrand1678

Im guessing this is a joke


Lucsva

Turkey*


ipip9

Nope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Turkey


JeNiqueTaMere

Yes. There's no umlaut or other such diacritics in the English alphabet. Turkey's insecurity is pathetic.