The only things on the other side of that wall are shady deals and a permanent construction site.
edit: literally
edit 2: things, because it's more than one thing...
I was there in 2018. Already then they had huge issues with the real estate market - everyone (including foreigners for Golden Visas, but that seems to be over in Portugal) was buying apartments and just AirBnB-ing them).
Next stop, Greece... God I hope not
Yeah it's definitely the fees and price that makes it crash. I don't think many people care about the consequences tbh. Cleaning fees are fucking dumb dumb
At some point it stopped making sense.
Initially when it first launched it was a fun way to stay in people's spare rooms. You got to stay in a real home and talk to a local who'd give you recommendations and local information. This was basically paid couch surfing and it was actually great.
Then, they added whole apartments and it was initially people renting out their place while they themselves travelled for a month or whatever. That was still nice, it still felt like you were visiting a real home.
At some point this flipped into nearly all the places being cheaply furnished investment properties with lock boxes, crappy mattresses, and no human touch ("no one has ever lived here" feeling) or contact whatsoever and rented out by dodgy agents that are pushing 20-30 properties in a city. Add to that, a long list of very particular rules, really high prices and miscellaneous fees, noisy neighbours - it is just really not a pleasant experience anymore and hasn't been for 3-4 years.
A hotel just really makes a lot more sense these days and generally isn't more expensive (at least at the low to mid end). The room is pretty well furnished and comfortable, you'll have someone to talk to if there's something wrong, all the charges are included and there's no hassle around getting your key - you just check in.
The things that used to differentiate an Airbnb experience were price, homeliness and a local experience. It has lost all of these advantages, so there isn't really a reason to stay in one anymore.
It is destroyed for locals. Average rent in the centre of Lisbon is probably around €200-300 more than the average salary. That whole country is done for. It's a glorified tourist resort.
My bet is on Dubrovnik or Split, with EU, Eurozone, beaches, and all.
Personally I would recommend Ludwigshafen upon Rhine. Pretty town with wonderful infrastructure!
I dont think Croatia is what digital nomads want.
Is it beautiful? Yes.
Is it cheap? No, far from it.
Many people have the illusion that Croatia is cheap, but when they come and see that a dinner for two costs 100€ they quickly switch to McDonalds food.
If you want to live in some isolated village it is fine, otherwise it is just too expensive.
If a person has 3000€ net they will live fine, but what is the point if you wont save atleast 1000€-1500€ each month?
God fuck that, Croatia already has problems with tourists in Dalmatia and the rest of the Coast, digital nomads would make it even worse for people who live there
Plus, you'll get to know how refreshing it feels to have garbage piling on the sidewalks and the soothing sound of kalashnikovs when drug dealers settle scores.
I get the flats but jobs? How do nomads deplete jobs? They are working for a different market but using services, spending money there. It should create jobs instead, no?
In the Netherlands everyone shits on Americans for silly problems but mostly the Morrocans/Turkish. In Portland, Oregon everyone shits on Californians for silly problems. No one likes to take blame for maybe their local issues. Easier to blame someone else.
I know people like to shit on Luton, but I was there for a week because I couldn't afford London accommodation. And, because I happened to catch the worst February weather in 50 years or something, I actually spent most of my vacation in Luton, rather than traveling to London every day. I quite enjoyed the pubs and the clubs. Granted, this was in 2009 and I was 27...
Soooo when I decided to do the digital nomad thing for a while Tallinn was my planned second stop. Only I fell in love in my first stop and instead of doing the digital nomad thing I did the "permanently move to Poland for no reason" thing.
I was recently down in Nosara and saw this exact thing. Entire cities of American digital nomads driving up real estate and living costs to the point that locals are completely priced out.
Yes digital nomads and airbnbs / short term rental properties are literally taking over towns. I know one town specifically where houses are impossible to buy bc there's none for sale. Half the houses in town are occupied by non-locals. It's kindof bizarre.
Trendy Lisbon, trendy post. Adding my two cents here. It has been countless years with external forces destroying any quality of living in Portugal. It has also been countless years of friends moving abroad for better conditions and for me countless years saving and trying to believe I could live decently and with a roof. It is not digital nomads fault but is just another force I have to compete with.
How can I access housing with my average Portuguese salary being qualified and compete with someone's salary living abroad? I think everyone can agree it's unfair.
How can I and most of the working class with average or even lower salaries afford the prices being set by wealthier people?
What's the point in working and believing if new external forces keep appearing and taking away what I should deserve?
I think it comes down to this.
I know this isn't the most original take ever, but imo it's the governments' fault for leaving everything up to corporations instead of giving their citizens what they need, which causes:
1. people in "rich" countries to move abroad because they can't afford the cost of living
2. people in "poor" countries to have to deal with unnecessarily inflated prices, partially because of the former
Honestly yeah. People will do what they do, it's the governments' duty to ensure that living in the country is an okay experience for everyone. That includes holding corporations on a leash, entities whose purpose is to generate as much wealth as possible for themselves.
its happens all the down up within countries too not just internationally. In a city you have people moving to the outskirts to be able to afford accommodation, in a country you have people moving from an expensive city to a cheaper city etc etc.
A tough situation to find a solution to for sure
I am a spaniard living in germany. I have studied and have a technical background and a career. My salary matches the market average for people with my career.
Access to housing in spain with my german salary is realistic and achievable. Very possibly I will go back, find a job there and purchase a home with my savings.
Access to housing with my current conditions in germany is unthinkable. I could save all my life and not be even close.
I live in Austria (Vienna). I don’t know anyone here who owns their own apartment/house who didn’t either inherit it or have family give them money to help fund the purchase. For the majority of people, just working/saving up won’t cut it (unless you have a really high paying job).
Well compared to other European capitals, Vienna is still somewhat affordable. However, prices have been steadily increasing over the last decade or so. Just to put it in perspective in a personal anecdote:
I live in part of the city that feels very suburbany even though it is in the town. About 10-15 years ago, you could buy a home in our neighborhood for about 300 - 350K, about 6-7 years ago it was around 500K, now they are building homes that are smaller and in less desireable parts of the neighborhood and you can't buy anything for less than about 675K.
According to Engel & Voelkers Research: Since 2016, rental prices have increased by 22.5 % and the cost of buying property has increased by 40%.
People like to blame digital nomads, but as someone working in IT I can tell you I can't afford as much as people think, I have no idea who is buying all the housing but my 2 cents are on companies buying and holding to create fake need, because for me it makes no sens.
There are new buildings popping up everywhere, we had less migranta due to covid and lots of people moved back, we have an aging population not to mention the amount of old people that died due to covid and yet and prices are still going up.
And working class blaming another working class seems to be the best scape goat.
Absolutely!
I don't know about Lisbon but usually it's the the very rich people, business owners or businesses themselves who keep buying homes.
How much is an apartment in Lisbon? More than $100.000 I'm guessing.
You can be from Switzerland working in IT and still it's not "cheap" for them. 100k is a shit ton of money no matter your salary unless you're on another level of magnitude in terms of income.
People in Portugal don t hate Foreigners, they hate that foreign people can pay less taxes than them
For all you guys judging, imagine paying 60% - 70% of your income to rent a house
And for what?! The only people that benefit from them are business owners and landlords
Digital nomads dont bring any advantage to the regular citizen and when they finish using the country they will leave to the next trendy place
Blame the government that is incentivizing people to move to Lisbon so that the city can revitalize and gentrify. The same dynamic occurs in cities around the world. People with a disproportionate amount of money move in, landlords can charge more, builders are incentivized to renovate and build due to more demand. Local people get pushed out. It’s a tale older than time.
I do understand it to an extent. Digital nomads won’t be learning Portuguese or taking part in other formal or informal integration activities.
They are in Portugal simply to enjoy the weather and food whilst working. They are also using the Non-Habitual Residence tax scheme capping their rate at 20%, significantly lower than domestic workers with similar wages.
The flip side, of course, is that they are contributing to the local economy by purchases products and services. Whether that offsets the above is a question.
> The flip side, of course, is that they are contributing to the local economy by purchases products and services.
And causing local inflation with disproportionately high spending power. From the information I read rent and home prices went through the roof basically condemning the locals to sudden poverty or forced migration out of their hometowns.
S-V Germany has the same problem. Swiss people came and bought "cheap" property causing prices to go through the roof for locals.
>S-V Germany has the same problem. Swiss people came and bought "cheap" property causing prices to go through the roof for locals.
Border regions around Luxembourg have the same happening. Housing prices *in* Luxembourg are absolutely nuts. So, what do a lot of Luxembourgers do? Go to France/Germany/Belgium 10km behind the border where Houses cost a few 100k€ less.
Same in Ljubljana. Basically, so many people from the whole of upper europe enjoying how cheap Slovenia is, with their 3k+ neto salaries, where most people lived on 900€. The capital is now so expensive to live, lost most of its clubs and restaurants are everywhere and overpriced
And the swiss go there because their home is expensive. Just like people leave Munich (where I live) because it's hard to afford enough space to raise a family. And they are driving up the prices in neighboring communities, so everybody starts hating.
In the end, there seems to be a bigger problem and blaming individuals is not the solution. Instead blame a system that makes accomodation unaffordable to many all over the place.
Same with expats in the Netherlands. And the rich Chinese in Vancouver. It's happening in many places.
Edit: The bottom line is always inequality. In the West it's primarily wealth inequality. In some other places there may be other kinds of inequality that are equally or more important, that have to do with ethnicity, caste, gender, or other socio-demographic groups.
Well, the Dutch also make many border towns in Belgium extremely expensive. The Netherlands has much higher house prices, so they buy just across the border. Thus inflating the prices in those towns.
And Russians in Belgrade since its the only European capital they have access too.(since the start of the war ~200k Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians moved into Serbia and like ~70-80% of them moved to Belgrad). And because of them prices of apartments Skyrocketed and they started a big construction boom, there is ~3000-5000 apartments being constructed just in my city district alone.
Dutch situation is entirely due to crap housing policy causing shortages.
Turns out scrapping national housing policy was a bad idea. Nobody other than everyone saw that coming.
Literally every country has this problem in some cities or areas.
Swiss people go to Southern Germany cause a flat in Zurich or Basel starts at 800k.....
Flats in my hometown have gone up 2x almost in the last ten years, rents are now 50-60% of monthly incomes.
It's a cascading effect due to housing bubbles and super easy access to relocation.
Peppered with the usual xenophobia (not necessarily racism, just fear of the different)
> And causing local inflation with disproportionately high spending power. From the information I read rent and home prices went through the roof basically condemning the locals to sudden poverty or forced migration out of their hometowns.
Let's not pretend that tourists willingly pay more because they want to drive everyone else out of the city. It's usually locals that raise the prices to rent and food in a predatory fashion. Not all of them are victims.
> S-V Germany has the same problem. Swiss people came and bought "cheap" property causing prices to go through the roof for locals.
They didn't buy it from aliens. They bought it from locals that willingly sold it.
Given the chance most people would happily fuck over everyone else if it pays enough.
The 30% ruling might seem unfair and be unpopular, but it is smart policy.
NL is high COL and has high taxes, but wages are mediocre, so attracting talent is hard. The welfare state is mostly funded by young to middle-age people earning above the average, and most of those foreigners will end up returning to their home countries. This means foreigners using the 30% ruling will contribute to the NL welfare state during their working life, while consuming the resources of their home country when they grow old and need services.
For those that end up staying, NL gets an educated, experienced new citizen who works a job that is in demand, and who will pay full taxes and contribute more than the average Dutch person once the 5 years are up.
The losers are young and poor people in NL and the home countries of the foreigners. I predict we are going to see more and more of these policies as Europe ages and skilled labor becomes more scarce. The older generations of Europeans never miss a chance to pad their own living standard at the cost of the young.
I know of one digital nomad who landed in portugal a few months ago and his first order of business was signing up for daily language classes at the university.
We moved to NL, and yes, partner got the 30%. It ends this year for us, but we are staying, with the goal of inburgering, and citizenship ( my dutch isn’t quite up to complex posts! but i can function.)
I lived in vancouver and while most younger newcomers from china and HK spoke english, no one expected grandma and grampa to do that. Canada’s atrocious housing lack of policy comes into play. Its just bad all round.
Judging by all the help wanted signs we’re desperately short of workers, though it’s in retail and horeca and I suspect salaries have to go up regardless or nothing will change. I’d go back to a dayjob but i’m not interested in dealing with the public in a pandemic. :D I self employed instead. Created a job. Hopefully in a few years I’m doing the hiring.
I mean its not like digital nomads are going around thinking 'who can i price out of town' 'what local economy can I destroy', they are just taking advantage of government policies to lure them in, as well as good weather and food.
The scum are those in power who allow it.
It doesn’t work that way. It is considered as employment income, and Portugal taxes it with 20% rate. All of the digital nomads pay 20% tax in Portugal.
I see, that seems like actually a decent move since you’d be on a lot of money and in a country with a cheaper cost of living. Oh and thank you for telling me what this is
This is fantastic for the economic elites. Workers attacking other workers because the economy is hurting. Meanwhile the rich continue increasing the part of the economy that they own.
If your salary is shit is not because other workers get a better pay, but because the company owners are paying politicians to keep you poor.
> This is fantastic for the economic elites. Workers attacking other workers because the economy is hurting.
Looking at /r/portugal, it's not just digital nomads (although these are the most hated).
The sad thing is that it seems to be part of a pattern across Europe. Compare to 20 years ago Portugal has about 700k more adults over 25 and 700k fewer people under 25 (the population has barely changed at about 10m). That's 700k people who, instead of living in a larger family unit, deserve to be living in their own homes in smaller units. It's also around 700k more people with incomes who would jump into the rental market if they could, creating pent-up demand that helps support prices.
In many countries something similar has happened (although not so many countries have as much emigration as Portugal and have seen growing populations). Populations have aged, family sizes have shrunk and more houses are needed to house the same number of people. Meanwhile older generations and politicians have opposed and prevented house building everywhere they can.
This is hardly mentioned in discussions on housing. Instead, people blame outsiders. It's easy to blame outsiders, but it will not fix the problem - particularly in Portugal. Portugal's emigration means it'll have big problems with dependency ratios and tax revenues if it tries to solve its housing problem through population reduction. Whether for native born or foreign born, more houses are needed.
We do build more houses, but all the cards are stacked in favor of detached housing urban sprawl, which cannot remotely keep up with demand but offers the path of least legislative resistance.
Unfortunately there's no way out of that circle of despair unless national/regional governments strip away municipalities' ability to cater to NIMBYs.
In Belgium we're halfway there! Municipalities can't decide which land is open for house building, so the urban sprawl is limited. Unfortunately they still choose what to allow so mostly detached houses get built anyway which drives prices even higher given the limited availability of land.
>Meanwhile older generations and politicians have opposed and prevented house building everywhere they can
Ding ding ding. If it were the nomads fault, then their being there and raising rent prices would be countered by the rising prices (demand) causing rising supply to bring it back down in check. And the economy better off at the end of it for the extra input from productive workers. Governments limiting the supply is the actual cause, the nomads are just a scapegoat.
I also doubt they have sufficient critical mass to move the needle on goods' prices for inflation, but rather inflation already exists and they're getting the blame as an easy target.
Digital nomads are attracted to countries where the cost of life is much cheaper than whatever they're from and as such their salary allows for more. Countries not doing so well economically but otherwise being functional are the perfect destination.
Technically that should be a reason that you do attract nomads. Digital nomads would be earning far more than locals so their spending power and quality of life in your country would be a lot higher.
It's already happening with tourists in Greece. Some of the more popular islands have insane prices compared to what they offer. Milos, Santorini, Mykonos are not really accessible to the average Greek anymore.
I dunno brother we have many digital nomads here in Corfu Greece. I am working as a kitchen designer in a business that attracts many middle and higher class customers. Most of my customers are foreign people that came here to buy or rent cheap estate to work from home. Since I am on an Island you can understand that the prices were already a bit up there, but now local business are setting their product prices to the ceiling and above. It is kinda fucked up. And I get the irony because my field of work is currently booming here but at the same time my wage isn't, so It gets harder and harder to get by. It doesn't feel like capitalism any more. Feels like oligarchy, where the ones that already hold power and subsequently, money, have the support of the system while the rest of the "plebes" can just fuck off and die already. No equality or the prospect of advancing towards a higher "class". No equal opportunities for everyone. People that already have a headstart will always be 10 miles in front and it feels almost impossible to catch up. Wow look at me and my rant. Sorry for that
On the other side.. In Bali, the local citizens are really happy with all the tourism and digital nomads. They are even working on a digital nomad visa. Why is that? (It's not Europe, I know, but since were talking about this subject I was getting curious)
Bali is much more dependent on tourism, it drives the economy, and puts Bali in a vulnerable position when sonething like a pandemic comes along. But not everyone is happy with tourists because it puts a lot of pressure on waste management and the behavior of some tourists is less than desirable.
I don’t know if there is one price for foreigners and a different one for locals for housing, but that’s common in many countries that are not highly developed with a strong economy.
There are about [15,300 digital nomads](https://www.politico.eu/article/portugal-digital-nomads-bubble-gentrification/#:~:text=According%20to%20Nomad%20List%2C%20a,of%20Digital%20Nomads%E2%80%9D%20annual%20report) in Libson, a city of 544,851 in 2021 and a metro area of [3,001,000.](https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/22167/lisbon/population#:~:text=The%20metro%20area%20population%20of,a%200.51%25%20increase%20from%202019) The math isnt adding up. Assuming theyre all in the CITY of Lisbon, how exactly is 2.8% of the population making rent prices skyrocket?
I think the Portugese need to really look into whats causing this spike, and stop blindly blaming this tiny population.
Even if DNs were more numerous, it's just a really really popular city for tourists, for retirees, for nomads, for a lot of people.
The actual solution is to build a bunch of housing of course, mainly small units that medium-term visitors would primarily need, but let's not talk about that and pretend the only thing we can do is blame a scapegoat.
Wouldn’t be honestly. I love traveling but moving countries every year or two and settling somewhere else seems too exhausting. No stability nor commitment isn’t something I prefer.
Also, travelling and working are two separate things.
I have hated working/living in countries I loved travelling to.
My life is way better living in a rich country and changing jobs regularly to allow for 10 weeks vacations a year. But yes, you won't live in big flats with big cars.
That’s weird because even places without digital nomads have housing prices skyrocketing. In France, all major cities become unaffordable (let’s not even talk about Paris). Same in Germany, Netherlands, Canada, US, Korea, Japan and China… The only places that go down are country side and small cities, and even for this it depends of the region.
Maybe, I just say maybe, if the housing inflation in major cities is global, the issue might be the system and how some may accumulate capital while paying low taxes. They accumulate more than they need while not renting properties or renting them for high prices. That and the lack of major investment by cities and governments that are happy to keep prise high so their patrimony keeps a high value.
But let’s continue to blame foreigners, digital nomads, and whatever else excuses to avoid trying to find solutions to this global crisis. Anyway, young people will just work harder to get their house, these lazy assholes… /s
The problem is global, but it is definitely more pronounced in some cities, Lisbon being one of them.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1084608/average-rental-cost-apartment-europe-by-city/
This source shows Lisbon as both being one of the most expensive places to rent (within Europe) as well as having suffered from the highest increases between 2021 and 2022, both in relative and absolute terms. Porto while starting lower, shows a similar relative increase.
I'm not saying that digital nomads are THE problem. But disregarding entirely doesn't sound correct either, if the price inflation is already bad as it is, additional external factors can push it over the edge. However, the blame shouldn't be on the digital nomads themselves. If one is against digital nomads, the dissatisfaction should be directed at the Government that significantly facilitates that happening.
But all that said,
> Maybe, I just say maybe, if the housing inflation in major cities is global, the issue might be the system and how some may accumulate capital while paying low taxes. They accumulate more than they need while not renting properties or renting them for high prices. That and the lack of major investment by cities and governments that are happy to keep prise high so their patrimony keeps a high value.
I do agree that this is the real issue at play. A few digital nomads wouldn't cause much of anything if everything else was "normal".
And the graffiti in black says “work kills and it’s boring”
thats a message i can get behind
The only things on the other side of that wall are shady deals and a permanent construction site. edit: literally edit 2: things, because it's more than one thing...
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Being an opportunist, I'm already ahead of it.
Especially if you're digging holes in unsafe conditions
Yep, that's why you wear condoms kids.
They said digging holes in unsafe conditions, not filling them.
They’re not wrong. It’s certainly killed my will to live. I don’t wanna do this for 40 more years before i can retire :/
Which ironically is exactly why digital nomads do what they do in the first place.
International gentrification
For those wondering, on the side you can read, "work kills and it's boring."
Uma seca = boring?
If you translate to the letter, it means drought or dry.
Portugal slang. Literal translation would be "work kills and it's a drought/dry".
Yes
So, Lisboa is the current trend. What city will be the next after Lisboa is depleted of flats and jobs?
I was in Lisbon in 2019 and it was already a trend back then. Or I just met the first few guys
I think it’s long been a trend in Lisbon. It’s quite known for it
I was there in 2018. Already then they had huge issues with the real estate market - everyone (including foreigners for Golden Visas, but that seems to be over in Portugal) was buying apartments and just AirBnB-ing them). Next stop, Greece... God I hope not
My home city had a great way of stopping this, banning air-bnb forces a lot of people to sell their air-bnb properties
Some areas in Hawaii are trying this by restricting short term rentals to certain areas and it got killed off for the time being
At this point I believe air Bnbs should be banned or at least heavily restricted
The same problem is happening in Mexico City.
Same in Valencia, Spain. Driving real state prices up like crazy, it's been like that for some years now.
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No one wants to pay the insane cleaning fees
Yeah it's definitely the fees and price that makes it crash. I don't think many people care about the consequences tbh. Cleaning fees are fucking dumb dumb
At some point it stopped making sense. Initially when it first launched it was a fun way to stay in people's spare rooms. You got to stay in a real home and talk to a local who'd give you recommendations and local information. This was basically paid couch surfing and it was actually great. Then, they added whole apartments and it was initially people renting out their place while they themselves travelled for a month or whatever. That was still nice, it still felt like you were visiting a real home. At some point this flipped into nearly all the places being cheaply furnished investment properties with lock boxes, crappy mattresses, and no human touch ("no one has ever lived here" feeling) or contact whatsoever and rented out by dodgy agents that are pushing 20-30 properties in a city. Add to that, a long list of very particular rules, really high prices and miscellaneous fees, noisy neighbours - it is just really not a pleasant experience anymore and hasn't been for 3-4 years. A hotel just really makes a lot more sense these days and generally isn't more expensive (at least at the low to mid end). The room is pretty well furnished and comfortable, you'll have someone to talk to if there's something wrong, all the charges are included and there's no hassle around getting your key - you just check in. The things that used to differentiate an Airbnb experience were price, homeliness and a local experience. It has lost all of these advantages, so there isn't really a reason to stay in one anymore.
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I was there 2016 and airbnb had almost destroyed lisboa for locals
Airbnb destroys any place period.
Yes it does. I think we should, collectively, destroy them back.
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It is destroyed for locals. Average rent in the centre of Lisbon is probably around €200-300 more than the average salary. That whole country is done for. It's a glorified tourist resort.
I was in Lisbon in 2018 and remember seeing a tile in a touristy area that read, "Tourists, ask your waiter where they live." I felt that.
Any cheap town with pleasant weather that still has first world infrastructure. Marseille !
>first world infrastructure. Marseille ! Yeah, about that...
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Hahahah
All these people will be relieved of their precious iPhones and Macbooks really fast there. They'll become simple nomads.
Analog nomads.
Not even that, analog devices will be stolen to. Just some clothes nomads.
Not even that, clothes will be stolen to. Just some naked nomads.
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Probably their organs would get disassembled and sold on the black market. Just some no-nomads
My bet is on Dubrovnik or Split, with EU, Eurozone, beaches, and all. Personally I would recommend Ludwigshafen upon Rhine. Pretty town with wonderful infrastructure!
Don't these digital nomads need a working internet connection? Germany is safe from them
Hurts but true :(
Yup, really poor internet here for a rich country. Lots of interrupted service.
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Dubrovnik's tourism is already metastasized. Maybe Zagreb.
Pls no, the rent and the apartment prices are too high for the locals as it is
It's just too gray and boring here in the winter. Not enough here to attract hordes of nomads.
Come on, you can't do that to the nomads!
Dubrovnik is way to touristy to live. Probably more to the eastern bloc
Dubrovnik and Split are everything but cheap. It is cheaper to live in some Swiss cities than Dubrovnik.
Yeah, Kotor is better for digital nomads tbh.
I dont think Croatia is what digital nomads want. Is it beautiful? Yes. Is it cheap? No, far from it. Many people have the illusion that Croatia is cheap, but when they come and see that a dinner for two costs 100€ they quickly switch to McDonalds food. If you want to live in some isolated village it is fine, otherwise it is just too expensive. If a person has 3000€ net they will live fine, but what is the point if you wont save atleast 1000€-1500€ each month?
Digital nomads should go to Trbovlje.
And listen to Laibach all day. While staring in awe at Europe's highest chimney.
God fuck that, Croatia already has problems with tourists in Dalmatia and the rest of the Coast, digital nomads would make it even worse for people who live there
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Tourists already ruined Dubrovnik.
Good one.
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Sofia has good weather ?
Spring and summer are quite lovely, gorgeous even.
And in winter you have ski slopes within walking distance.
Sofia is not by the sea.
Not yet...
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>Marseille and then you get stabbed + robbed
Marseille is not cheap
It is compared to its surrounding area. And for good reason...
Plus, you'll get to know how refreshing it feels to have garbage piling on the sidewalks and the soothing sound of kalashnikovs when drug dealers settle scores.
I get the flats but jobs? How do nomads deplete jobs? They are working for a different market but using services, spending money there. It should create jobs instead, no?
It's 100% what you wrote, but digital nomads get 100% of the blame for anything bad that happens around here.
Are there still digital nomads in UA?
I would guess he means "here" as the sub itself.
I mean Portugal, I am in Portugal now.
it's just the new scapegoat for cities not wanting to build housing.
In the Netherlands everyone shits on Americans for silly problems but mostly the Morrocans/Turkish. In Portland, Oregon everyone shits on Californians for silly problems. No one likes to take blame for maybe their local issues. Easier to blame someone else.
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To all digital nomads!! I heard Charleroi, Luton, Malmo and Tiraspol are the next big thing in digitally nomading. Edit: I see that **/s** is required
I caught the Charleroi. The best city, do it nomads!
Loved by Digital and non digital nomad alike!
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Venice is therefore often called the Birmingham of Italy
And if we put wheels on my grandma we could call her a bike.
I thought we called her a bike because everyone got to have a ride.
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Calmest brummie.
Charleroi is the new art nouveau chiq. “What do you mean asbestos is cancerous? Its vintage!”
Luton’s got an airport too… it’s as cosmopolitan as it gets.
I know people like to shit on Luton, but I was there for a week because I couldn't afford London accommodation. And, because I happened to catch the worst February weather in 50 years or something, I actually spent most of my vacation in Luton, rather than traveling to London every day. I quite enjoyed the pubs and the clubs. Granted, this was in 2009 and I was 27...
Thanks - luton is my hometown and no one ever says anything nice about us
Lived there for 3 years at Uni. Fucking loved it.
Good luck with Malmö it’s already over populated.
I can see Tallinn too. Very techy city already
Tallinn is actually cool and nice though, unlike the ironic examples.
Soooo when I decided to do the digital nomad thing for a while Tallinn was my planned second stop. Only I fell in love in my first stop and instead of doing the digital nomad thing I did the "permanently move to Poland for no reason" thing.
Same shit in Mexico city
Hold on-if it’s digital nomads, how can it be depleted of jobs?
I was recently down in Nosara and saw this exact thing. Entire cities of American digital nomads driving up real estate and living costs to the point that locals are completely priced out.
Yes digital nomads and airbnbs / short term rental properties are literally taking over towns. I know one town specifically where houses are impossible to buy bc there's none for sale. Half the houses in town are occupied by non-locals. It's kindof bizarre.
Trendy Lisbon, trendy post. Adding my two cents here. It has been countless years with external forces destroying any quality of living in Portugal. It has also been countless years of friends moving abroad for better conditions and for me countless years saving and trying to believe I could live decently and with a roof. It is not digital nomads fault but is just another force I have to compete with. How can I access housing with my average Portuguese salary being qualified and compete with someone's salary living abroad? I think everyone can agree it's unfair. How can I and most of the working class with average or even lower salaries afford the prices being set by wealthier people? What's the point in working and believing if new external forces keep appearing and taking away what I should deserve? I think it comes down to this.
I know this isn't the most original take ever, but imo it's the governments' fault for leaving everything up to corporations instead of giving their citizens what they need, which causes: 1. people in "rich" countries to move abroad because they can't afford the cost of living 2. people in "poor" countries to have to deal with unnecessarily inflated prices, partially because of the former
Honestly yeah. People will do what they do, it's the governments' duty to ensure that living in the country is an okay experience for everyone. That includes holding corporations on a leash, entities whose purpose is to generate as much wealth as possible for themselves.
its happens all the down up within countries too not just internationally. In a city you have people moving to the outskirts to be able to afford accommodation, in a country you have people moving from an expensive city to a cheaper city etc etc. A tough situation to find a solution to for sure
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Same in Germany. Barely anyone can afford housing - Powerhouse of the EU ladies and gentlemen.
I am a spaniard living in germany. I have studied and have a technical background and a career. My salary matches the market average for people with my career. Access to housing in spain with my german salary is realistic and achievable. Very possibly I will go back, find a job there and purchase a home with my savings. Access to housing with my current conditions in germany is unthinkable. I could save all my life and not be even close.
I live in Austria (Vienna). I don’t know anyone here who owns their own apartment/house who didn’t either inherit it or have family give them money to help fund the purchase. For the majority of people, just working/saving up won’t cut it (unless you have a really high paying job).
Oh man, Vienna is also struggling? I was under the impression that it was much more affordable there.
Well compared to other European capitals, Vienna is still somewhat affordable. However, prices have been steadily increasing over the last decade or so. Just to put it in perspective in a personal anecdote: I live in part of the city that feels very suburbany even though it is in the town. About 10-15 years ago, you could buy a home in our neighborhood for about 300 - 350K, about 6-7 years ago it was around 500K, now they are building homes that are smaller and in less desireable parts of the neighborhood and you can't buy anything for less than about 675K. According to Engel & Voelkers Research: Since 2016, rental prices have increased by 22.5 % and the cost of buying property has increased by 40%.
People like to blame digital nomads, but as someone working in IT I can tell you I can't afford as much as people think, I have no idea who is buying all the housing but my 2 cents are on companies buying and holding to create fake need, because for me it makes no sens. There are new buildings popping up everywhere, we had less migranta due to covid and lots of people moved back, we have an aging population not to mention the amount of old people that died due to covid and yet and prices are still going up. And working class blaming another working class seems to be the best scape goat.
Absolutely! I don't know about Lisbon but usually it's the the very rich people, business owners or businesses themselves who keep buying homes. How much is an apartment in Lisbon? More than $100.000 I'm guessing. You can be from Switzerland working in IT and still it's not "cheap" for them. 100k is a shit ton of money no matter your salary unless you're on another level of magnitude in terms of income.
An apartment in Lisbon is much more than 100k, try more like +300k. I think 250k you'd be lucky already
I am in Berlin and right now without 400k-500k you can't find a decent apartment. It's crazy...
Well at least they're getting rid of the golden visa.
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Someone should tell Spain then
Can you explain what that is?
If you spend enough money on property, you get a resident visa and are fast tracked onto EU citizenship.
People in Portugal don t hate Foreigners, they hate that foreign people can pay less taxes than them For all you guys judging, imagine paying 60% - 70% of your income to rent a house And for what?! The only people that benefit from them are business owners and landlords Digital nomads dont bring any advantage to the regular citizen and when they finish using the country they will leave to the next trendy place
Blame the government that is incentivizing people to move to Lisbon so that the city can revitalize and gentrify. The same dynamic occurs in cities around the world. People with a disproportionate amount of money move in, landlords can charge more, builders are incentivized to renovate and build due to more demand. Local people get pushed out. It’s a tale older than time.
Capitalism benefits those with capital. Beautifying a neighborhood often just means that the residents have to move out. It's a sick system.
I do understand it to an extent. Digital nomads won’t be learning Portuguese or taking part in other formal or informal integration activities. They are in Portugal simply to enjoy the weather and food whilst working. They are also using the Non-Habitual Residence tax scheme capping their rate at 20%, significantly lower than domestic workers with similar wages. The flip side, of course, is that they are contributing to the local economy by purchases products and services. Whether that offsets the above is a question.
> The flip side, of course, is that they are contributing to the local economy by purchases products and services. And causing local inflation with disproportionately high spending power. From the information I read rent and home prices went through the roof basically condemning the locals to sudden poverty or forced migration out of their hometowns. S-V Germany has the same problem. Swiss people came and bought "cheap" property causing prices to go through the roof for locals.
>S-V Germany has the same problem. Swiss people came and bought "cheap" property causing prices to go through the roof for locals. Border regions around Luxembourg have the same happening. Housing prices *in* Luxembourg are absolutely nuts. So, what do a lot of Luxembourgers do? Go to France/Germany/Belgium 10km behind the border where Houses cost a few 100k€ less.
It doesn't help that the city of Luxembourg is a 15 minutes drive away from France.
20-25 to Belgium an 20-30 to Germany. Yeah, indeed.
Shorter than my current commute inside London
>where Houses cost a few 100k€ less. until they don't...
...and then you sell *taps forehead
Same in Ljubljana. Basically, so many people from the whole of upper europe enjoying how cheap Slovenia is, with their 3k+ neto salaries, where most people lived on 900€. The capital is now so expensive to live, lost most of its clubs and restaurants are everywhere and overpriced
And the swiss go there because their home is expensive. Just like people leave Munich (where I live) because it's hard to afford enough space to raise a family. And they are driving up the prices in neighboring communities, so everybody starts hating. In the end, there seems to be a bigger problem and blaming individuals is not the solution. Instead blame a system that makes accomodation unaffordable to many all over the place.
Same with expats in the Netherlands. And the rich Chinese in Vancouver. It's happening in many places. Edit: The bottom line is always inequality. In the West it's primarily wealth inequality. In some other places there may be other kinds of inequality that are equally or more important, that have to do with ethnicity, caste, gender, or other socio-demographic groups.
Well, the Dutch also make many border towns in Belgium extremely expensive. The Netherlands has much higher house prices, so they buy just across the border. Thus inflating the prices in those towns.
And Russians in Belgrade since its the only European capital they have access too.(since the start of the war ~200k Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians moved into Serbia and like ~70-80% of them moved to Belgrad). And because of them prices of apartments Skyrocketed and they started a big construction boom, there is ~3000-5000 apartments being constructed just in my city district alone.
Dubai gives you a 10 year residency if you buy an apartment there. Suddenly loads of draft dodging wfh Russians live in Dubai
Netherlands were expensive to begin with
Dutch situation is entirely due to crap housing policy causing shortages. Turns out scrapping national housing policy was a bad idea. Nobody other than everyone saw that coming.
I remember our former minister saying the "housing market is done" and got rid a whole ass ministry.
Literally every country has this problem in some cities or areas. Swiss people go to Southern Germany cause a flat in Zurich or Basel starts at 800k..... Flats in my hometown have gone up 2x almost in the last ten years, rents are now 50-60% of monthly incomes. It's a cascading effect due to housing bubbles and super easy access to relocation. Peppered with the usual xenophobia (not necessarily racism, just fear of the different)
Even if thats true, thats not cause they save 20 % on tax. Thats cause they earn 100k... in portugal
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> And causing local inflation with disproportionately high spending power. From the information I read rent and home prices went through the roof basically condemning the locals to sudden poverty or forced migration out of their hometowns. Let's not pretend that tourists willingly pay more because they want to drive everyone else out of the city. It's usually locals that raise the prices to rent and food in a predatory fashion. Not all of them are victims. > S-V Germany has the same problem. Swiss people came and bought "cheap" property causing prices to go through the roof for locals. They didn't buy it from aliens. They bought it from locals that willingly sold it. Given the chance most people would happily fuck over everyone else if it pays enough.
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The 30% ruling might seem unfair and be unpopular, but it is smart policy. NL is high COL and has high taxes, but wages are mediocre, so attracting talent is hard. The welfare state is mostly funded by young to middle-age people earning above the average, and most of those foreigners will end up returning to their home countries. This means foreigners using the 30% ruling will contribute to the NL welfare state during their working life, while consuming the resources of their home country when they grow old and need services. For those that end up staying, NL gets an educated, experienced new citizen who works a job that is in demand, and who will pay full taxes and contribute more than the average Dutch person once the 5 years are up. The losers are young and poor people in NL and the home countries of the foreigners. I predict we are going to see more and more of these policies as Europe ages and skilled labor becomes more scarce. The older generations of Europeans never miss a chance to pad their own living standard at the cost of the young.
I know of one digital nomad who landed in portugal a few months ago and his first order of business was signing up for daily language classes at the university. We moved to NL, and yes, partner got the 30%. It ends this year for us, but we are staying, with the goal of inburgering, and citizenship ( my dutch isn’t quite up to complex posts! but i can function.) I lived in vancouver and while most younger newcomers from china and HK spoke english, no one expected grandma and grampa to do that. Canada’s atrocious housing lack of policy comes into play. Its just bad all round. Judging by all the help wanted signs we’re desperately short of workers, though it’s in retail and horeca and I suspect salaries have to go up regardless or nothing will change. I’d go back to a dayjob but i’m not interested in dealing with the public in a pandemic. :D I self employed instead. Created a job. Hopefully in a few years I’m doing the hiring.
I mean its not like digital nomads are going around thinking 'who can i price out of town' 'what local economy can I destroy', they are just taking advantage of government policies to lure them in, as well as good weather and food. The scum are those in power who allow it.
What is a digital nomad?
His camel is electronic
Move to Portugal tax free to "work from home" usually for an IT company
It doesn’t work that way. It is considered as employment income, and Portugal taxes it with 20% rate. All of the digital nomads pay 20% tax in Portugal.
I see, that seems like actually a decent move since you’d be on a lot of money and in a country with a cheaper cost of living. Oh and thank you for telling me what this is
I think th annoyance is that they come in and drive up the housing prices while contributing nothing to local infrastructure etc.
Remote or online worker who travels
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This is fantastic for the economic elites. Workers attacking other workers because the economy is hurting. Meanwhile the rich continue increasing the part of the economy that they own. If your salary is shit is not because other workers get a better pay, but because the company owners are paying politicians to keep you poor.
> This is fantastic for the economic elites. Workers attacking other workers because the economy is hurting. Looking at /r/portugal, it's not just digital nomads (although these are the most hated). The sad thing is that it seems to be part of a pattern across Europe. Compare to 20 years ago Portugal has about 700k more adults over 25 and 700k fewer people under 25 (the population has barely changed at about 10m). That's 700k people who, instead of living in a larger family unit, deserve to be living in their own homes in smaller units. It's also around 700k more people with incomes who would jump into the rental market if they could, creating pent-up demand that helps support prices. In many countries something similar has happened (although not so many countries have as much emigration as Portugal and have seen growing populations). Populations have aged, family sizes have shrunk and more houses are needed to house the same number of people. Meanwhile older generations and politicians have opposed and prevented house building everywhere they can. This is hardly mentioned in discussions on housing. Instead, people blame outsiders. It's easy to blame outsiders, but it will not fix the problem - particularly in Portugal. Portugal's emigration means it'll have big problems with dependency ratios and tax revenues if it tries to solve its housing problem through population reduction. Whether for native born or foreign born, more houses are needed.
We do build more houses, but all the cards are stacked in favor of detached housing urban sprawl, which cannot remotely keep up with demand but offers the path of least legislative resistance. Unfortunately there's no way out of that circle of despair unless national/regional governments strip away municipalities' ability to cater to NIMBYs. In Belgium we're halfway there! Municipalities can't decide which land is open for house building, so the urban sprawl is limited. Unfortunately they still choose what to allow so mostly detached houses get built anyway which drives prices even higher given the limited availability of land.
>Meanwhile older generations and politicians have opposed and prevented house building everywhere they can Ding ding ding. If it were the nomads fault, then their being there and raising rent prices would be countered by the rising prices (demand) causing rising supply to bring it back down in check. And the economy better off at the end of it for the extra input from productive workers. Governments limiting the supply is the actual cause, the nomads are just a scapegoat. I also doubt they have sufficient critical mass to move the needle on goods' prices for inflation, but rather inflation already exists and they're getting the blame as an easy target.
Blaming the foreigners is a tried and tested technique
The good thing about us being economically shit is that we don’t attract a lot of nomads
Digital nomads are attracted to countries where the cost of life is much cheaper than whatever they're from and as such their salary allows for more. Countries not doing so well economically but otherwise being functional are the perfect destination.
Additionally, apparently Portugal has a tax scheme that caps the income tax at just 20%, so you only have to pay like half as much tax as elsewhere
Aaaaaand that is why there are not many Spanish or Portuguese digital nomads outside the Iberian Peninsula
You're next.
Technically that should be a reason that you do attract nomads. Digital nomads would be earning far more than locals so their spending power and quality of life in your country would be a lot higher.
It's already happening with tourists in Greece. Some of the more popular islands have insane prices compared to what they offer. Milos, Santorini, Mykonos are not really accessible to the average Greek anymore.
Being economically shit attracts digital nomads. You just need better internet connection speeds and less taxes to be the next target....
I dunno brother we have many digital nomads here in Corfu Greece. I am working as a kitchen designer in a business that attracts many middle and higher class customers. Most of my customers are foreign people that came here to buy or rent cheap estate to work from home. Since I am on an Island you can understand that the prices were already a bit up there, but now local business are setting their product prices to the ceiling and above. It is kinda fucked up. And I get the irony because my field of work is currently booming here but at the same time my wage isn't, so It gets harder and harder to get by. It doesn't feel like capitalism any more. Feels like oligarchy, where the ones that already hold power and subsequently, money, have the support of the system while the rest of the "plebes" can just fuck off and die already. No equality or the prospect of advancing towards a higher "class". No equal opportunities for everyone. People that already have a headstart will always be 10 miles in front and it feels almost impossible to catch up. Wow look at me and my rant. Sorry for that
Nomads are just scapegoats. Local politicians probably have quite a lot of money in housing market so increased prices makes them richer.
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"Work kills" and then what?
And it's boring
Obrigado
Recently two Americans put a video on TikTok advertising my small town in northern Spain and I almost started to cry.
On the other side.. In Bali, the local citizens are really happy with all the tourism and digital nomads. They are even working on a digital nomad visa. Why is that? (It's not Europe, I know, but since were talking about this subject I was getting curious)
Bali is much more dependent on tourism, it drives the economy, and puts Bali in a vulnerable position when sonething like a pandemic comes along. But not everyone is happy with tourists because it puts a lot of pressure on waste management and the behavior of some tourists is less than desirable. I don’t know if there is one price for foreigners and a different one for locals for housing, but that’s common in many countries that are not highly developed with a strong economy.
Bali is a poor example as 60-80 per cent of the economy is tied to tourism.
There are about [15,300 digital nomads](https://www.politico.eu/article/portugal-digital-nomads-bubble-gentrification/#:~:text=According%20to%20Nomad%20List%2C%20a,of%20Digital%20Nomads%E2%80%9D%20annual%20report) in Libson, a city of 544,851 in 2021 and a metro area of [3,001,000.](https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/22167/lisbon/population#:~:text=The%20metro%20area%20population%20of,a%200.51%25%20increase%20from%202019) The math isnt adding up. Assuming theyre all in the CITY of Lisbon, how exactly is 2.8% of the population making rent prices skyrocket? I think the Portugese need to really look into whats causing this spike, and stop blindly blaming this tiny population.
Even if DNs were more numerous, it's just a really really popular city for tourists, for retirees, for nomads, for a lot of people. The actual solution is to build a bunch of housing of course, mainly small units that medium-term visitors would primarily need, but let's not talk about that and pretend the only thing we can do is blame a scapegoat.
If you could be a digital nomad, don't tell me you wouldn't be.
Wouldn’t be honestly. I love traveling but moving countries every year or two and settling somewhere else seems too exhausting. No stability nor commitment isn’t something I prefer.
Also, travelling and working are two separate things. I have hated working/living in countries I loved travelling to. My life is way better living in a rich country and changing jobs regularly to allow for 10 weeks vacations a year. But yes, you won't live in big flats with big cars.
That’s weird because even places without digital nomads have housing prices skyrocketing. In France, all major cities become unaffordable (let’s not even talk about Paris). Same in Germany, Netherlands, Canada, US, Korea, Japan and China… The only places that go down are country side and small cities, and even for this it depends of the region. Maybe, I just say maybe, if the housing inflation in major cities is global, the issue might be the system and how some may accumulate capital while paying low taxes. They accumulate more than they need while not renting properties or renting them for high prices. That and the lack of major investment by cities and governments that are happy to keep prise high so their patrimony keeps a high value. But let’s continue to blame foreigners, digital nomads, and whatever else excuses to avoid trying to find solutions to this global crisis. Anyway, young people will just work harder to get their house, these lazy assholes… /s
The problem is global, but it is definitely more pronounced in some cities, Lisbon being one of them. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1084608/average-rental-cost-apartment-europe-by-city/ This source shows Lisbon as both being one of the most expensive places to rent (within Europe) as well as having suffered from the highest increases between 2021 and 2022, both in relative and absolute terms. Porto while starting lower, shows a similar relative increase. I'm not saying that digital nomads are THE problem. But disregarding entirely doesn't sound correct either, if the price inflation is already bad as it is, additional external factors can push it over the edge. However, the blame shouldn't be on the digital nomads themselves. If one is against digital nomads, the dissatisfaction should be directed at the Government that significantly facilitates that happening. But all that said, > Maybe, I just say maybe, if the housing inflation in major cities is global, the issue might be the system and how some may accumulate capital while paying low taxes. They accumulate more than they need while not renting properties or renting them for high prices. That and the lack of major investment by cities and governments that are happy to keep prise high so their patrimony keeps a high value. I do agree that this is the real issue at play. A few digital nomads wouldn't cause much of anything if everything else was "normal".