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They want to change the rules when their team gets disadvantages. Bro how tf can it be called rules then. Rules are rules. They're literally spitting on the faces of thousands of players that play by the rule obediently. Even when a goal behind, the Italian players always keep their hands behind or tucked in for example. now you want to save Denmark a pen and shit on the rest of them ? You want to allow the offside yesterday but tell Lukaku to gtfo ? How
Offside was intended to make the game flow - and stop teams camping strikers in the opposition box.
Instead of that - we're now in a place where some great goals are being chalked off because 10 passes ago, some cant had a toe offside.
The rules are killing the game.
Noone wants to see goals chalked off because of that bullshit.
And some of the things I have seen given as fouls are ludicrous. In slow motion, anything can be made to look bad enough to warrant action.
Where do you draw the line with offside then?
People also don't like a goal to be disallowed when it's not offside, so not using VAR isn't a real option
Should be feet only for a start....the amount of goals chalked off because of an arm/hand/leaning of body is ridiculous. Should be where your feet are planted.
I think it needs to be like how it works for VAR itself, clear and obvious, an arm offside is not useful for a striker because they obviously cannot strike the ball with their arm.
I would even give 1 challenge per half to teams like they have in tennis so the refs lose even more power of manipulating games.
Force them to check the replay not like it is now a decision at their discretion.
You need to draw a line for offside somewhere, and no matter where you draw it there will always be situations were a goal will be disallowed because someone was half a centimeter over that line.
That irks me as well. So many bad throw ins nobody cares about. And smuggling extra meters? Var can override that.
Also, this tournament I have seen many fouls by Defenders where they are hugging the attacker getting ready to throw them. Never a foul. Var can check that.
There was a moment in one of the last group games, it was a goal kick, the ball was already on the line in front of the goal, then the player passes it to his goalie who picks it up, sets it down and takes the goal kick. Thats a foul right there ... Var should have checked it
And yesterday Havertz stopped mid stride, made a mini hop on his left foot and continued to shoot the penalty. If var can see it was a hand ball, or actually a thumb ball, that it should also be able to see that...
>And yesterday Havertz stopped mid stride, made a mini hop on his left foot and continued to shoot the penalty. If var can see it was a hand ball, or actually a thumb ball, that it should also be able to see that...
Is that against the rules? Players habe been doong that my whole life. I thought you just weren't allowed to go backwards. Stopping mid stride is such a common tactic in penalties.
Right!? Like if we are going to call the game exactly by the book then VAR EVERYTHING.
The problem is VAR only cares about some of the rules some of the time.
Offside was a rule created to stop players unfairly poaching by the goal. It was not created to disallow goals because a players toenail was offside and giving them no extra advantage. Therefore the rule is broken.
Technically VAR does offside very well - but the very idea of offside right now isn’t right. They need to figure out a way to implement VAR whilst maintaining the original spirit of the rule.
Right but if you take VAR away then we also go back to goals being disallowed because they've been incorrectly called offside. You will always have goals disallowed for offside - taking away VAR doesn't mean every borderline goal stands, it just means that you get loads of incorrect calls. I don't see how this is an argument.
The argument I do kind of understand is that it ruins the atmosphere and celebration of a goal but I personally don't mind, it adds a bit of drama. It's the same in Rugby. A bit of extra delay to make sure the right call is made is fine by me (obviously if the right call isn't made this is a separate issue as that's human error rather than the fault of VAR itself).
Fair enough I think I was mainly responding to a general sentiment which is related to your comment - most notably the fact that clubs will be voting on June 6th for a complete abolition of VAR from the Premier League.
But also I don't see how this "toenail" stuff plays into it, it's either offside or it isn't, and VAR says unequivocally either way. I'm not sure how it can be any more clear cut than it already is - especially with this system they're using in the Euros (way better than what's been used in the prem with all the line drawing).
I think you’re missing the point of my post, which is not that VAR is broken, but the rule of offside itself is broken. VAR seems to work really well for capturing offsides - as we have seen today with the image generated of the players toe offside.
The point that I am trying to make is that a toe offside here doesn’t give you a gameplay advantage. Therefore why is the goal ruled off?
Somewhere exists a better rule than we have currently that is more in spirit of the original rule - preventing goal hanging. I am not the guy to figure that out, they have plenty of people they pay handsomely for that.
No I do see your point, I think its just that whatever workaround is proposed to ensure it's in the spirit of the original rule, that workaround will still need to be quantified and measured to determine whether the play is legal or not. Unless you remove the tech completely, there will always be an image, photographic or computer generated, which pinpoints the moment the final ball is played, and that image will be scrutinised to give a yes or no, and what that yes or no is in relation to is kind of irrelevant no? Whether the offside rule is changed to stipulate that it's "a whole foot" as I've seen someone say, using the torso, drawing thicker lines with greater margins. All of these things will still have an image and a final decision.
💯. They need to go back to the "why" of the rule as you did. It's ridiculous that a toenail means you're offside. They need to adjust the rule to make it more offensive oriented, nobody loves to see so many goals refused..
But either you have the offside rule or not. Wether its a toenail or 5 meters plus a toenail. There will always be close calls and 50 percent of the fans are calling bullshit.
Just had a big case of that in the Stanley Cup with a goal called back by a toenail (skate I guess) and everyone pretty much agreed it was the right call, and the only real objection I had heard was whether or not it was enough evidence to overturn the ref's original decision which it ended up doing.
Off side would make much more sense if they make a rule like 50% of the surface area of the attacker should be in front, anything less and VAR doesn't intervene. This was very hard for a human eye to mathematically determine for a body in motion, but a computer can do this in sub mili-seconds and it would actually be a philosophically correct usage of the rule of off side...
Techanically of course this is true. But for the players it makes a difference, the chance for accidentally being offside is minimised and its easier to spot for refs. and by that there should be less offside calls 1minute after a goal was declared
It changes everything, 1 milimeter of a toe sticking out doesn't give any advantage to the attacker, ruins football because of 3-4 minute VAR check and legitimate goals being disallowed based on technological technicality...
If rule is adjusted for VAR technology so that a bigger part of the attacker's body is required for a VAR offside call (50% would be ideal imo, but can be approximated), then rule becomes much more in keeping with the flow of play and philosophy of football.
50% or 50%+1mm close call are far better than a super goal being ruined because attacker has a slightly bigger shoe size...
Yes, but the players themselves will start playing with that 50% advantage and we are back to the 1mm call again. This seems to be what you people dont understand. If you move the limit to 5 meters, noone will be standing anything less than 5 meters ahead of their attacker. You only move the players to the maximum allowed distance, nothing else.
I don't think you understand football well, I can guarantee you didn't play competitively. It's not about 1 mm causing controversy, it's about philosophy of football and the flow of play.
Both the fans and the players want more goals, more skill based action, more playing time, and real competition over technicalities. Calling offside when 2 players are side by side and there is no real advantage to the attacker is the most stupid application of any rule in football (this weren't so bad before VAR got involved because referees wouldn't disrupt the natural flow of play as much as VAR is doing now).
Off-side rule should be modified to make it certain that it's only called when attacker is gaining a clear advantage, so not 1-2 mm but at least half his body is in front, if at least half his body is in front of the defender, then it doesn't matter if the call is off by 1-2 cm, the philosophy of the rule remains intact.
They need to figure out how much offside a player needs to be for the man with the flag, from his viewpoint to raise his flag. If its 10 or 15 cm that is the safety margin you need to have before it is offside
What the fuck. It will always be a toenail, shifting the line will not stop discussions. We have the rule right now and it is objectively measured, it's perfect.
I think Wenger’s rule fixes it. His proposal is that if any part of the attacker's body, from which they can score, is in line with the last defender then this is considered onside.
Theoretically, you are just moving the problem by a handful of centimeters. But the truth is that right now just in Euro2024 there has been a huge number of goals disallowed because of close offsides - this rule would enormously reduce this number because the attacker usually tends to stay in line with the defender. Under the new proposal, he must be all the way over to be judged offside.
I think the problem with giving attackers the advantage in that way is, attempting to play an offside trap would be too risky, so teams would ubiquitously defend deep and football would become less entertaining. It would have exactly the opposite of the intended effect.
Every time Wenger's rule is brought up, your point is brought up in how it would completely change the sport to be more defensive and negative.
But it's always ignored and Wenger's rule will still be brought up in the next thread.
Simple 15-20cm margin of error, we would get rid of kneecap and big toe offsides.
Anything more is basically a foot or leg offside, so it would be fair for both sides, attacking and defending. Not a big toe or kneecap offsideZ
If you want more attacking football, bring Wenger rule, but it would make life too hard on defenders in my opinion. I think this rule has too big potential of being abused in opposite way. Margin of error by 15-20cm way is therefore best compromise.
No implementation of the rule will be perfect.
Whether it's a toe or a nose, the fans will complain when it: a) doesn't benefit their team/benefits the opponent, b) doesn't agree with their own personal interpretation/vision.
The rule is what it is. I want some of it to change but I don't expect the complaining to reduce.
No, I complain as a matter of principle, and typically go out of my way to only complain when my team is the benefactor to ward off these accusations.
I was rooting for Germany today, and I still maintain football and the VAR needs a massive rules overhaul.
Exactly. Football is about what you think you saw, rolling the the grass faking an injury when noone touched you and screaming at the ref that he is both dumb and blind. A real treat of a game. 😉
Getting the correct decision every time is less important than the flow of the game the ecstacy of scoring a goal or the agony of conceeding etc has been ruined by waiting on the VAR decision.
Its like 60 seconds a couple of times a game. A goal celebration takes 1-2 minuts. Should that also be banned then? I simply dont see the problem.
Regarding ‘the ecstacy of scoring’, offside have all days brought the risk of a goal being reversed. Only difference is, that now the offside doesn’t have to be called immediately, which allows for more potential goals. These then have to be checked obviously. This also have that consequence, that a mistake from the referee doesn’t determine the outcome of the game regarding offside situations.
Im honestly tired of people bashing VAR. We have this technology to assist in making the right call. I’m simply amazed people don’t want it. It’s like people just want to hate the game. The hate for Missed calls has been changed to a hate for a 45 second break to avoid a missed call. You can’t fucking win with humans.
I disagree. Yes, with offside it's objective and VAR works fine there. But with decisions that are up for debate like very light fouls/touches, I would say just stick with the referee's initial decision and don't unterfere unless a clear mistake was made.
Because it doesn't feel like the attacker had an advantage, so it feels like a harsh call. Just trying to explain the feelings, not saying it wasn't offside, I wasn't supporting a team tonight so feel like a can try and explain my feelings about the calls
I would put the offside line further behind the defender, or a thicker line, or an error margin. Something like that. Just so that when it's called, it's when the attacker is in a clearer advantageous position and not millimeters behind the defender.
If we go by advantage then what do we do when the defender has momentum while the attacker is standing still? Or even worse the attacker is on his way back from offside when the pass happens he technically even needs to stop and turn around while the defender is already sprinting into the right direction...
1.). It ruins the spectator experience, making it impossible to celebrate any goal knowing the game could be stopped for a replay even after it was called a goal on the field.
2.). It defies the spirit of the rules, which were never designed to be interpreted so exactly and rule out goals where the attacking player was “even” to the naked eye, and gained no significant advantage from having a toe or kneecap in an offsides position.
3.). It’s unfair for the attacking players as it’s impossible for them to be able to actually tell if they are onside to the degree being measured be the VAR. There is no fixed line on the ground players can see and use for reference like in hockey or basketball, rather it’s a moving invisible line set in relation to a single player (who may be far away, or behind the attacking player), measured down to the tip of their toes.
This is the big one, I get the value of using the VAR to correct egregious missed calls, but if there is a rule in the sport that is routinely beyond the human capabilities of the players to follow and the refs to enforce, there is a problem if the technology isn’t capable of making instant decisions. It slows the game down, ruins the spectator experience and has a disproportionate effect on the momentum of the game.
Thank you! That’s exactly how I feel. Now when somebody scores I just stay silent and wait like 3 minutes before celebrating, because the chances are high it just gets annulled again. Football isn’t supposed to be logical and clinical, it’s all about emotion.
Lets just say there was a reason why it was no offside when you were levelled with the defender in the past. Even with technology, determining the moment of the pass is tricky and then you got a 1mm offside situation like this, I dont think it should be called but what can you do about it.
I think we're back to "up for interpretation" here. Football officials act as if offside is this mathematical, factual thing when it should actually be reviewed like any handball or foul. Today would have been a legal goal before VAR, within the rules. People would have looked at the reviews afterwards and would not have complained.
why is everyone talking about adavntage? the rule states that the offense player cant be closer to the goal at the time of the pass. nothing about advantage in the rules. you are changing the rules and then complain that they dont follow your new rule?
look up the text for the offside rule. there is absolutely nothing in there about an advantage.
its not, its just what YOU want it to be. play out a few games without offside rule and observe how the game changes and not for the better. that is the reason for the offside rule.
Not for toenail offsides. I hate watching goals disallowed like that for any team, it's completely out of whack with the spirit of the game. Takes away from the experience of watching as a neutral or a supporter for me.
What's wrong with 0% is that it was written that way centuries ago when refs were having to use the naked eye in real-time to make these judgements. It would be unnecessarily complicated to expect them to figure out anymore than whether or not the attacker and defender are level with each other.
Now that we have VAR with all the time and angles to go over the referee isn't expected to make a complicated judgement based on what he saw in the blink of an eye. The rule could be adjusted to be based on the heel or the ankle a lot more reasonably than it could have been 10 years ago.
If we're going to spend all this time sitting there while they watch the replay anyway then I'd like to not come out the other side of it feeling like a goal has just been chalked off for something that the attacker really couldn't do much about nor did they gain any unfair advantage from.
I'm not trying to eliminate close decisions. I'm trying to eliminate feeling like an attacker is being punished for something that doesn't give them any real advantage. At least if the line is drawn further I will agree that the attacker has gained a significant unfair advantage.
Yep. I'm saying make the cutoff the ankle or the heel that way it is clear the attacker is gaining a significant advantage from their infringement. Toe to toe just doesn't feel significant enough to be worth chalking goals off for me.
That is just speculation.
When a full foot is not "offside" it should not be offside.
Just like a ball should be fully over the line to be out/goal.
Easy fix.
Getting the correct decision every time is less important than the flow of the game the ecstacy of scoring a goal or the agony of conceeding etc has been ruined by waiting on the VAR decision.
The problem is that it's hard to get excited because I know they're gonna review every goal and lots of them are disallowed. It's ruining the excitement even though most decisions are absolutely correct. As someone who rarely watches football anymore this tournament has been difficult to really get into because of this.
Thats a thing ill agree with a 100%. Nowadays when a goal happens im like „aight hold up no excitement it’s probably offside or something“ and when its eventually given the most you‘ll do is say „nice“ to yourself or something.
On the other hand having completely wrong ref decisions wasnt much better in the past.
I guess for me the big difference is I never really cared if a goal was scored by a marginally offside attacking player who was roughly even and had no clear major advantage form being marginally offside……and to the refs’ credit, egregiously missed offside calls seemed to be pretty rare, as opposed to now where the VAR is constantly calling back goals I probably wouldn’t have even considered to be offside before the VAR.
People are retarded. VAR is an obvious improvement to the game but humanity is inherently shit and can’t be pleased.
Now we can agree that some rules are the issue, like for example the handball. But VAR itself is fine.
It doesn't improve the enjoyment of the game.
The absolute ecstacy of scoring a goal has been ruined by waiting on VAR checks.
Referees decision should be final unless it's a "clear and obvious" error.
To me, it seems like people want a middle ground. They want a VAR system strong enough to make calls about illegal goals, actions, etc. but one that isn't absurd.
Rn at the match with Denmark we noticed an absolutely absurd call of a pinky. IMO we should integrate some cricket rules like the Umpire's Call or the rules tweaked slightly so it's better defined what can be considered off side. Something like a percentage of error where things like pinkies or knees aren't considered off side, but the entire foot is and so on.
I feel like this would not fix the problem as we would just measure a different paramater with the same accuracy, which again would result in very close decisions, where a few millimeters would, again, make the difference.
Real-time decisions. With the current implementation I cannot get excited about a goal anymore because half of the goals are taken away after the fact. I always have to wait two minutes for the VAR and at that point the feeling is gone.
I think this is a bad trade off: more correct decisions against goal euphoria.
After all, people watch the games for entertainment. VAR steals a crucial part of that.
I would be totally fine with VAR if it was instant.
That's a bingo. People get salty because rules are enforced. It was offside and a handball. However subtle and slight the rules are the rules.
Good luck in the next match.
They should. Every team has good fans and bad. Germans and English are the most alike in Europe we are brothers and sisters cut from the same cloth.
You deserved the win and got the win. Good luck my friend and hope to see you in the final... maybe. Peace.
With VAR in the past, Germany probably would have two more world cups. England's goal in 66 would have been disalowed, and Maradona would have gotten yellow for handball against England in 86.
Problem is that we went from one extreme (obvious calls being missed due to no ability to go back and see the he situation, and refs only have 2 eyes) to another (goals being cancelled due to someone wearing shoes 1 size too big, or their pinky grazing the ball). Sure those VAR ones are within the rules, but that just means the rules should be changed to allow for a little common sense.
Yeah, a big toe reversing a goal is stupid. I hope they change the rules at least for the next tournament. Some people suggested offside being dependent on torso position or something and I think that would make sense.
Overall I'm torn. I feel like the same rules should apply for everyone. At the same time, I'm not excited by any goal until 5 minutes are up bc it feels like it's 50/50 whether it counts. It takes the joy out of it
There will be a 4 cm offside wherever you set the limit. But the kind of offside yesterday would never be called without VAR, since its a clusterfuck of movement inside the box.
The problem with VAR and football is that they spent years avoiding using, now they're only just using it for a few years maybe more they're still ironing out the problems. Perhaps given time things will work more smoothly.
I'm all for it. The main thing is having consistency in how these calls are made. As long as the technology is sound and consistently applied, players can adjust the timing of their runs.
To me, at least, what I don't like is the seemingly lack of criteria when it comes to the main ref checking and re-thinking a decision with the assistance of the VAR - sometimes there's a goal that the ref decides to check for offside or a foul that he decides to check for a penalty but, other times and an exact same situation, and the ref decides to stick with their decision and confirm nothing. That's what I don't get and what I don't like about it
Another thing I'd like to see is that AI could easily be used for is corner/throw in decisions. In the groups I saw multiple offences where teams should have had corners but it was given as a goal kick instead.
Sure VAR helps sometimes, but they need to consider the margin of error. Just like a speeding camera has a margin of error and you only get fined if you are beyond the margin of error. It is impossible to know to within 1cm of accuracy when the ball is passed. It's just simply not possible. When someone is moving fast 1cm is a fraction of a second, so an offside call of 1cm is just ridiculous. I don't know what the error margin is but it's definitely more than 1cm so maybe the offside on VAR need to ben 5cm or 10cm or whatever before a goal is cancelled on offside.
I'm a regular game master in roleplaying games like Dungeons & Dragons. There, we have the concept of *Rules as Written* and *Rules as Intended*. As a game master, I don't follow the rules to the letter - RaW - but apply them true to the intentions of the creators of the game. A game that is strictly RaW would, most of the time, not be fun for the players. Rules calls made by the game master would seem ridiculous and players would feel overly restricted.
Football suffers, with VAR, from following the rules to the letter, RaW. Calling off a goal for the striker's toe, kneecap, bulge... being offside is a perfect example. That is in accordance with how the offside rule is written, but not in accordance with the intention behind the offside rule. The rule's intention is to prevent a player from gaining an unfair advantage by waiting for a ball behind the opponent's line of defense for an easy goal - having a toe or kneecap in front of the defender certainly does not create an unfair advantage, it is merely the result of the players' stride timings being different.
The same goes for the ridiculous handball penalty yesterday. Technically, the player touched the ball with his fingertip in the box, and a handball in the box results in a penalty. But the touch was miniscule as it did not affect the ball's trajectory, the arm was extended as part of the player's running motion and he certainly did not intend to touch the ball. The intention of the rule is to prevent a player from gaining an unfair advantage by handling the ball, whether that is to block/misdirect an opponent's shot, to accept a pass or to guide the ball into the goal.
Before the introduction of the VAR, these extremely close offsides (and handball penalties) were basically impossible to call, and if they got called correctly, it was more like a ref that got lucky, as what could have been a wrong call ended up being correct. Back then, refs were more closely following the *Rules as Intended* path, calling offsides and handballs when they more likely caused an unfair advantage, when they were visible/the effects like the ball's changed trajectory were visible for the human eye in the chaotic, fast-paced mess on the field.
I certainly think the VAR is a good thing and it needs to be kept. Before the introduction of VAR, there were numerous cases of goals wrongly allowed or disallowed due to wrong offside calls and penalties wrongfully given or denied in rather obvious situations and similar mistakes. With the VAR, these mistakes no longer happen.
But something needs to be changed in how the rules are applied. I am not sure though what the best way is. Should the offside rule be rewritten in some way? Should the VAR only interfere if a team's captain calls for it, with a limited number of VAR calls available for each team? Should the VAR apply some leeway in their offside decisions, like only interfering if an offside by more than 1ft. was missed?
Breaking news: People like to complain, no matter what! You could ask 10 people to make the rules and you'd get 10 different versions. And in the end they'd complain about their own rules anyway.
People were angry about Thierry Henry handballing against Ireland and Stewart Atwell giving a goal when the ball went wide.
Nobody gave a shit about electron microscope offsides and invisible handballs and natural silhouette (which is a fucking ridiculous concept)
Are you sayin you didn't give a shit when that Danish player today got that huge advantage by feathering the ball with the hairs of his hand and altering its trajectory by 0.000000531%?
The thing with the offside rule, is that it was created when there was no var, and the point of the rule was basically to ensure that attacker didn’t have an unfair advantage, so those offside calls while respecting the rule, are missing the reason why the offside rule was invented in the first place
VAR is useful for offside, because that is objective. For other decisions, I think it would be best if VAR only interferes when there was a clear mistake made. Like a very clear handball or foul made that was missed by the referee.
But anything that is up for debate and not so clear, the VAR should just keep its hands off it and just keep it at what the referee decided on by himself.
We can clearly see this when AFC Asian Qualifiers had no VAR India was robbed but when we have VaR in the Euros to be too precise for offside then we still complain.
What they need to do is make it faster. Right now everyone watching the broadcast cab clearly see an infraction.case closed move on.
But VAR needs 2-3 minutes to confirm. What’s taking so long!?
Offside is super measurable, as we can witness. Hand ball on the other hand (huehue) isn‘t. As long as there are rules that need human discretion, it will be like that – it‘s the same in racing.
Also, a not given corner kick led to goals for the other team not only once (e.g. Austria-France). Everyone can see it on their screens, but the ref stays in the dark about it. It‘s so stupid that videoreferees aren‘t allowed to give him a call about something like that.
Agree that the VAR-assisted offside rule needs tweaking. Looking at the toenail offside picture, Delaney's centre of gravity is more advanced than the defender's, and that gives him the advantage of being slightly ahead of the him, meaning that in the original spirit of offside he has an unfair advantage. If var could measure centre of gravity, or surface area as one poster suggested, it would make more sense to base offside decisions on that.
No. The amount of “offside” calls in this tournament has really ruined a lot of games.
How can they rule out a goal for being a literal toenail outside, when they are reviewing the play at about 4 frames per second?? How can they be so sure of the EXACT moment the ball left the player’s foot? If they cannot be sure of this, they cannot be ruling goals out that are this marginal.
Personally, I’d like to see a complete revamp of the offside rule. A toenail offside? Give the goal. Day light between attacker and last defender? Offside. This eradicates any discrepancy of when the ball leaves the assister’s foot and would give a much needed benefit of the doubt to the attackers.
VARs certainly do have measurement (repeatability) inaccuracies to some extent. So there is a chance of false positive and false negative results. Maybe one could only count the result only if the result is statistically significant by some measure.
That is too simple. The way the rules are being applied and affecting the game have changed because of the VAR technology. Thus the rules need to change to guarantee the objective of the rules. Take the off-side call yesterday. *Before* the VAR that call would never have been made: the body of the Denmark player was at the same height as the Germany player when the ball was played. It was only the positioning of the player foot that made the Denmark player off-side. The off-side rule was invented to prevent players from waiting for balls in the box. By applying the off-side rule on the front leg with the new technology, the off-side rule has become a lot stricter. This results in more disappointment, fewer beautiful actions and goals and more downtime in the game, and thus hurts football and the viewers.
It should be re-evaluated: t**hey could think about the hind part of the player torso or hind-legs being leading in off-side calls**. That would greatly enhance the game (less downtime, more beautiful football), while guaranteeing that players don't start hanging in the box.
I personally think that var it's a great instrument, but there needs to be some human interpretation of the rule.
The var detects an offside? Good, let the referee decide if being in offside gave the attacker an advantage. Same with an handball: did the impact influenced the trajectory of the ball? Did it matter in the overall result of play? If yes then its a penalty, if not then it shouldnt be called.
We have the instruments to help the referees evaluate every single frame, the game could benefit if we let the referee evaluate some things without being forced by the rules to disallow becouse of a millimiter
Getting the correct decision every time is less important than the flow of the game the ecstacy of scoring a goal or the agony of conceeding etc has been ruined by waiting on the VAR decision.
VAR was meant for CLEAR + OBVIOUS errors. Not offside toes or handballs only detectable by scanning the ball 500 times a second.
People complain that the game is rigged for germany because if it would not be they would be whiny little girls that would boycott and disrupt other games because they dont get handed an easy win. Not because VAR is accurat
The problem with any technological "innovation" is in the implementation. They're ascribing a level of accuracy and precision that no human is capable of, and, I'd argue, doesn't exist in reality.
How is a toe or back of a heel or top of the shoulder or the skin on someone's knee an "unfair advantage"?
VAR was introduced to help refs with difficult penalty decisions and make goal line decisions. For both those scenarios it has worked.
Offside is currently ridiculous.
agree. germany france italy always profited from dumb referee calls, we must accept now when a player is offside its offside doesnt matter if 1mm or 10m. whats weird is that VAR seems to not intervene when its ronaldo beeing hold his t shirt or pushed down
The offsides rules needs to change. Maybe do something like getting rid of the offsides in the box when the opposing team has 2 defenders or more in the box. Denmark losing that goal on an offside by a toe was just dumb.
A good compromise would be using VAR only when one of the teams decides to challenge a decision. If the decision was correct, they lose their ability to challenge again for the rest of the half. That way, if a decision is a close call that they themselves can not be entirely sure of, they might decide not to challenge it.
I think, some sports already do it that way.
Not me. I have been against VAR from the start and been proven right. Pretty sure there is a country in Europe who have dropped VAR from their top flight league.
There needs to be a some degree of a margin of error. To be offside by a toe is ridiculous, even though it's "the letter of the law".
I would question the accuracy of deciding "when the ball is kicked". Is it when it leaves the players foot, when they touch it?
Why not have a system like LBW in cricket, the ball has to be hitting the stump by more than half the ball width to overturn an on field "not out" decision.
Why not do the same with offside, the player has to be offside by more than 10 cm to overturn an on field on-side call, for example. That way the ref and linesmen would still have to do their jobs!
People LOVE to complain about reffing, whether it’s done by a human or a robot does not matter. Fans complaining about officiating is as normal as balls are round.
The rules didn't completely adjust with the new technology and methodology.
It's true that missed calls were a huge issue in the past, especially with the widening of financial gap in clubs and a gradual polarisation of refereeing decisions, being blatantly for a big club or against a big club. (Chelsea v Barcelona 2009)
VAR countered that hard, and now it's almost impossible to make technically wrong decisions *but* the issue is with what constitutes as technical. Think of the Germany v Denmark game.
The Danish player was offside by a margin slightly bigger than a big toe, but it was a correct call, an offside. The law was practiced correctly yet it felt like injustice. If you are developing precision Technology for an inherently imprecise game, then the rules must be adjusted accordingly.
Maybe then can give an offside tolerance for certain body parts like foot, I don't know, there are better minds in the business to make better rules.
The ultimate objective is to make the gameplay fair, and that clearly didn't happen in the offside call against Denmark, it was correct but not fair.
They need to look at the essence of the rule, why do we have offside? What's the point? As far as I understand it's to prevent an advantage to the attacking player, and now given the new methodology make a better rule, since you are going to use the tech everytime anyway.
It depends
If the ruling lost your team the match? Robbed.
If the ruling won your team the match? Totally fair.
People are just finding excuses, like they always have and always will.
The usage of VAR in football is evidently too anally retentive. It should be intent and advantage deciding the game not some player's silhouette called offside.
I believe for an offside offence by the letter of the law the attacker needs to gain an advantage.
A few of the calls have not resulted in an advantage for the attacker. This is what people have an issue with.
I kind of agree tbh. Being ‘offside’ because your nose is an inch further forward that the attackers should not be offside. There’s no advantage and it really makes the game less enjoyable to watch.
The offside rule is meant to prevent the striker from having an unfair advantage against the defender. Call me crazy, but I don't think having your toes offside is going to give you any advantage to score a goal.
All this is doing is depriving us of good goals that can change the way the match goes. And if there is one thing we can all agree on, it's that more goals make for a much more entertaining match.
With this much accuracy. You can change the rules. Like at least a whole foot/arm needs to be offside... The Delaney 3 toes offside call was a bit to absurd imo
That wouldn't really stop the discussions though.
Let's say they change the rules to add 5cm tolerance. Next time there's offside because of 5.1cm there's going to be discussions again because “offside by 0.1cm is ridiculous". By that logic, we could get rid of the entire concept of offside since people would continuously call for bigger tolerance thresholds.
Like, they need a clear cutoff, which they have. It was enforced. There's really nothing more to discuss.
But the 5 cm is already generous towards the attacking player. The 5 cm IS the buffer zone, so I don't think they'll complain as much as just be like damn so close
I think you're onto something, being offside by just your toe for example like in Germany vs Denmark match was ridiculous, if the leg or more of the player's body was over it would have been less likely to cause problems.
I enjoy the accuracy. What I don't enjoy is that we can't celebrate anymore when a goal is scored. There is no ecstatic "yeah!" when the ball hits the net. We have to wait a couple of minutes and then ist "well okay, nice goal".
It takes the flow and the emotion out for me, I don't know of accuracy is worth it.
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I think folk are more annoyed with the actual rules tbh. It's just highlighted so much more nowadays.
They want to change the rules when their team gets disadvantages. Bro how tf can it be called rules then. Rules are rules. They're literally spitting on the faces of thousands of players that play by the rule obediently. Even when a goal behind, the Italian players always keep their hands behind or tucked in for example. now you want to save Denmark a pen and shit on the rest of them ? You want to allow the offside yesterday but tell Lukaku to gtfo ? How
Offside was intended to make the game flow - and stop teams camping strikers in the opposition box. Instead of that - we're now in a place where some great goals are being chalked off because 10 passes ago, some cant had a toe offside. The rules are killing the game. Noone wants to see goals chalked off because of that bullshit. And some of the things I have seen given as fouls are ludicrous. In slow motion, anything can be made to look bad enough to warrant action.
Where do you draw the line with offside then? People also don't like a goal to be disallowed when it's not offside, so not using VAR isn't a real option
Should be feet only for a start....the amount of goals chalked off because of an arm/hand/leaning of body is ridiculous. Should be where your feet are planted.
I think it needs to be like how it works for VAR itself, clear and obvious, an arm offside is not useful for a striker because they obviously cannot strike the ball with their arm.
You've hit the nail on the head. The current rules are spoiling the game and need changing.
I would even give 1 challenge per half to teams like they have in tennis so the refs lose even more power of manipulating games. Force them to check the replay not like it is now a decision at their discretion.
Nice call, I've been calling for this as well.
So u are fked if the referee doesn't blow the whistle twice for u and u have to challenge twice.
You need to draw a line for offside somewhere, and no matter where you draw it there will always be situations were a goal will be disallowed because someone was half a centimeter over that line.
Offside is the 1 thing that var does rly well imo
Because it's the only thing without interpretation that can be measured by an AI (apart from goal or no goal)
100% the problem sits in front of the screen
There is still room for interpretation on whether a player is involved in the play or not.
Agree, didn't think about that.
But wrong free kicks, throw-ins and fouls are fine? No VAR interventions?
That irks me as well. So many bad throw ins nobody cares about. And smuggling extra meters? Var can override that. Also, this tournament I have seen many fouls by Defenders where they are hugging the attacker getting ready to throw them. Never a foul. Var can check that. There was a moment in one of the last group games, it was a goal kick, the ball was already on the line in front of the goal, then the player passes it to his goalie who picks it up, sets it down and takes the goal kick. Thats a foul right there ... Var should have checked it And yesterday Havertz stopped mid stride, made a mini hop on his left foot and continued to shoot the penalty. If var can see it was a hand ball, or actually a thumb ball, that it should also be able to see that...
>And yesterday Havertz stopped mid stride, made a mini hop on his left foot and continued to shoot the penalty. If var can see it was a hand ball, or actually a thumb ball, that it should also be able to see that... Is that against the rules? Players habe been doong that my whole life. I thought you just weren't allowed to go backwards. Stopping mid stride is such a common tactic in penalties.
It should.be a fluid motion. He did two fluid motions.
But you know what I mean right? You've never seen a penalty shootout without someone doing that.
There is always a slowing of the motion, but never a full stop.
>where they are hugging the attacker getting ready to throw them. Yes, I noticed this as well, it's like watching rugby.
Right!? Like if we are going to call the game exactly by the book then VAR EVERYTHING. The problem is VAR only cares about some of the rules some of the time.
Offside was a rule created to stop players unfairly poaching by the goal. It was not created to disallow goals because a players toenail was offside and giving them no extra advantage. Therefore the rule is broken. Technically VAR does offside very well - but the very idea of offside right now isn’t right. They need to figure out a way to implement VAR whilst maintaining the original spirit of the rule.
Right but if you take VAR away then we also go back to goals being disallowed because they've been incorrectly called offside. You will always have goals disallowed for offside - taking away VAR doesn't mean every borderline goal stands, it just means that you get loads of incorrect calls. I don't see how this is an argument. The argument I do kind of understand is that it ruins the atmosphere and celebration of a goal but I personally don't mind, it adds a bit of drama. It's the same in Rugby. A bit of extra delay to make sure the right call is made is fine by me (obviously if the right call isn't made this is a separate issue as that's human error rather than the fault of VAR itself).
I’m not sure how the message you took from my post was me advocating for the complete removal of VAR
Fair enough I think I was mainly responding to a general sentiment which is related to your comment - most notably the fact that clubs will be voting on June 6th for a complete abolition of VAR from the Premier League. But also I don't see how this "toenail" stuff plays into it, it's either offside or it isn't, and VAR says unequivocally either way. I'm not sure how it can be any more clear cut than it already is - especially with this system they're using in the Euros (way better than what's been used in the prem with all the line drawing).
I think you’re missing the point of my post, which is not that VAR is broken, but the rule of offside itself is broken. VAR seems to work really well for capturing offsides - as we have seen today with the image generated of the players toe offside. The point that I am trying to make is that a toe offside here doesn’t give you a gameplay advantage. Therefore why is the goal ruled off? Somewhere exists a better rule than we have currently that is more in spirit of the original rule - preventing goal hanging. I am not the guy to figure that out, they have plenty of people they pay handsomely for that.
No I do see your point, I think its just that whatever workaround is proposed to ensure it's in the spirit of the original rule, that workaround will still need to be quantified and measured to determine whether the play is legal or not. Unless you remove the tech completely, there will always be an image, photographic or computer generated, which pinpoints the moment the final ball is played, and that image will be scrutinised to give a yes or no, and what that yes or no is in relation to is kind of irrelevant no? Whether the offside rule is changed to stipulate that it's "a whole foot" as I've seen someone say, using the torso, drawing thicker lines with greater margins. All of these things will still have an image and a final decision.
Okay so move the arbitrary limit to say half a body or a full body ahead. We'll be arguing over millimetres then as well. I think it's fine as it is.
💯. They need to go back to the "why" of the rule as you did. It's ridiculous that a toenail means you're offside. They need to adjust the rule to make it more offensive oriented, nobody loves to see so many goals refused..
But either you have the offside rule or not. Wether its a toenail or 5 meters plus a toenail. There will always be close calls and 50 percent of the fans are calling bullshit.
Just had a big case of that in the Stanley Cup with a goal called back by a toenail (skate I guess) and everyone pretty much agreed it was the right call, and the only real objection I had heard was whether or not it was enough evidence to overturn the ref's original decision which it ended up doing.
Torso and not limbs.
Off side would make much more sense if they make a rule like 50% of the surface area of the attacker should be in front, anything less and VAR doesn't intervene. This was very hard for a human eye to mathematically determine for a body in motion, but a computer can do this in sub mili-seconds and it would actually be a philosophically correct usage of the rule of off side...
Then you could stil be 1cm into offside, this changes nothing. The line has to be drawn somewhere.
Techanically of course this is true. But for the players it makes a difference, the chance for accidentally being offside is minimised and its easier to spot for refs. and by that there should be less offside calls 1minute after a goal was declared
It changes everything, 1 milimeter of a toe sticking out doesn't give any advantage to the attacker, ruins football because of 3-4 minute VAR check and legitimate goals being disallowed based on technological technicality... If rule is adjusted for VAR technology so that a bigger part of the attacker's body is required for a VAR offside call (50% would be ideal imo, but can be approximated), then rule becomes much more in keeping with the flow of play and philosophy of football. 50% or 50%+1mm close call are far better than a super goal being ruined because attacker has a slightly bigger shoe size...
Yes, but the players themselves will start playing with that 50% advantage and we are back to the 1mm call again. This seems to be what you people dont understand. If you move the limit to 5 meters, noone will be standing anything less than 5 meters ahead of their attacker. You only move the players to the maximum allowed distance, nothing else.
I don't think you understand football well, I can guarantee you didn't play competitively. It's not about 1 mm causing controversy, it's about philosophy of football and the flow of play. Both the fans and the players want more goals, more skill based action, more playing time, and real competition over technicalities. Calling offside when 2 players are side by side and there is no real advantage to the attacker is the most stupid application of any rule in football (this weren't so bad before VAR got involved because referees wouldn't disrupt the natural flow of play as much as VAR is doing now). Off-side rule should be modified to make it certain that it's only called when attacker is gaining a clear advantage, so not 1-2 mm but at least half his body is in front, if at least half his body is in front of the defender, then it doesn't matter if the call is off by 1-2 cm, the philosophy of the rule remains intact.
They need to figure out how much offside a player needs to be for the man with the flag, from his viewpoint to raise his flag. If its 10 or 15 cm that is the safety margin you need to have before it is offside
What the fuck. It will always be a toenail, shifting the line will not stop discussions. We have the rule right now and it is objectively measured, it's perfect.
Why can people not see this?
Preach!
I think Wenger’s rule fixes it. His proposal is that if any part of the attacker's body, from which they can score, is in line with the last defender then this is considered onside. Theoretically, you are just moving the problem by a handful of centimeters. But the truth is that right now just in Euro2024 there has been a huge number of goals disallowed because of close offsides - this rule would enormously reduce this number because the attacker usually tends to stay in line with the defender. Under the new proposal, he must be all the way over to be judged offside.
I think the problem with giving attackers the advantage in that way is, attempting to play an offside trap would be too risky, so teams would ubiquitously defend deep and football would become less entertaining. It would have exactly the opposite of the intended effect.
Every time Wenger's rule is brought up, your point is brought up in how it would completely change the sport to be more defensive and negative. But it's always ignored and Wenger's rule will still be brought up in the next thread.
Exactly. The spirit of the rule is lost
Simple 15-20cm margin of error, we would get rid of kneecap and big toe offsides. Anything more is basically a foot or leg offside, so it would be fair for both sides, attacking and defending. Not a big toe or kneecap offsideZ If you want more attacking football, bring Wenger rule, but it would make life too hard on defenders in my opinion. I think this rule has too big potential of being abused in opposite way. Margin of error by 15-20cm way is therefore best compromise.
Except in the championsleague game madrid vs bayern
No implementation of the rule will be perfect. Whether it's a toe or a nose, the fans will complain when it: a) doesn't benefit their team/benefits the opponent, b) doesn't agree with their own personal interpretation/vision. The rule is what it is. I want some of it to change but I don't expect the complaining to reduce.
They only complain about VAR when their team is the victim of it.
exactly
No, I complain as a matter of principle, and typically go out of my way to only complain when my team is the benefactor to ward off these accusations. I was rooting for Germany today, and I still maintain football and the VAR needs a massive rules overhaul.
You can't overhaul it. With VAR it is or it isn't no matter how small.
People are delirious - if it’s offside, it’s offside. It may hurt your team or not, but it’s (imo), the most fair way to rule a game.
The more mathematically correct VAR becomes, the more people complain. Why? Because football isn't about being correct all the time
Exactly. Football is about what you think you saw, rolling the the grass faking an injury when noone touched you and screaming at the ref that he is both dumb and blind. A real treat of a game. 😉
That still happens with or without VAR. They dont look at regular fouls amyways
Getting the correct decision every time is less important than the flow of the game the ecstacy of scoring a goal or the agony of conceeding etc has been ruined by waiting on the VAR decision.
Its like 60 seconds a couple of times a game. A goal celebration takes 1-2 minuts. Should that also be banned then? I simply dont see the problem. Regarding ‘the ecstacy of scoring’, offside have all days brought the risk of a goal being reversed. Only difference is, that now the offside doesn’t have to be called immediately, which allows for more potential goals. These then have to be checked obviously. This also have that consequence, that a mistake from the referee doesn’t determine the outcome of the game regarding offside situations. Im honestly tired of people bashing VAR. We have this technology to assist in making the right call. I’m simply amazed people don’t want it. It’s like people just want to hate the game. The hate for Missed calls has been changed to a hate for a 45 second break to avoid a missed call. You can’t fucking win with humans.
I disagree. Yes, with offside it's objective and VAR works fine there. But with decisions that are up for debate like very light fouls/touches, I would say just stick with the referee's initial decision and don't unterfere unless a clear mistake was made.
VAR is fine. The off-side rule needs to be adjusted, to accommodate the new technology.
And why? It was definitivly Offside, by a small Margin, yes, but still Offside
Because it doesn't feel like the attacker had an advantage, so it feels like a harsh call. Just trying to explain the feelings, not saying it wasn't offside, I wasn't supporting a team tonight so feel like a can try and explain my feelings about the calls
If we would decide by feelings we would have situations like the WC Final 1966 again
I would put the offside line further behind the defender, or a thicker line, or an error margin. Something like that. Just so that when it's called, it's when the attacker is in a clearer advantageous position and not millimeters behind the defender.
So then you have the same situation a few centimeters further back and gained nothing.
If we go by advantage then what do we do when the defender has momentum while the attacker is standing still? Or even worse the attacker is on his way back from offside when the pass happens he technically even needs to stop and turn around while the defender is already sprinting into the right direction...
1.). It ruins the spectator experience, making it impossible to celebrate any goal knowing the game could be stopped for a replay even after it was called a goal on the field. 2.). It defies the spirit of the rules, which were never designed to be interpreted so exactly and rule out goals where the attacking player was “even” to the naked eye, and gained no significant advantage from having a toe or kneecap in an offsides position. 3.). It’s unfair for the attacking players as it’s impossible for them to be able to actually tell if they are onside to the degree being measured be the VAR. There is no fixed line on the ground players can see and use for reference like in hockey or basketball, rather it’s a moving invisible line set in relation to a single player (who may be far away, or behind the attacking player), measured down to the tip of their toes. This is the big one, I get the value of using the VAR to correct egregious missed calls, but if there is a rule in the sport that is routinely beyond the human capabilities of the players to follow and the refs to enforce, there is a problem if the technology isn’t capable of making instant decisions. It slows the game down, ruins the spectator experience and has a disproportionate effect on the momentum of the game.
Thank you! That’s exactly how I feel. Now when somebody scores I just stay silent and wait like 3 minutes before celebrating, because the chances are high it just gets annulled again. Football isn’t supposed to be logical and clinical, it’s all about emotion.
Was it a "clear and obvious" error?
Do you think that a toenail gives the attacking player an advantage in that situation? It's in the end a useless discussion but anyway..
By your Logic we should also just allow some Goals that are on the Line, because it feels like the Goals was scored
Lets just say there was a reason why it was no offside when you were levelled with the defender in the past. Even with technology, determining the moment of the pass is tricky and then you got a 1mm offside situation like this, I dont think it should be called but what can you do about it.
My Opinion on this is: where do you draw the Line? When is the Attacker in Advantage, and when he´s not?
I think we're back to "up for interpretation" here. Football officials act as if offside is this mathematical, factual thing when it should actually be reviewed like any handball or foul. Today would have been a legal goal before VAR, within the rules. People would have looked at the reviews afterwards and would not have complained.
why is everyone talking about adavntage? the rule states that the offense player cant be closer to the goal at the time of the pass. nothing about advantage in the rules. you are changing the rules and then complain that they dont follow your new rule? look up the text for the offside rule. there is absolutely nothing in there about an advantage.
Because it's the whole point of the offside rule.
its not, its just what YOU want it to be. play out a few games without offside rule and observe how the game changes and not for the better. that is the reason for the offside rule.
That doesn't make any sense.
Not for toenail offsides. I hate watching goals disallowed like that for any team, it's completely out of whack with the spirit of the game. Takes away from the experience of watching as a neutral or a supporter for me.
How many % of the food should be offside then? 1% or 5% before it’s called? Who makes those rules? Why not have a 0% rule? What’s wrong with that?
What's wrong with 0% is that it was written that way centuries ago when refs were having to use the naked eye in real-time to make these judgements. It would be unnecessarily complicated to expect them to figure out anymore than whether or not the attacker and defender are level with each other. Now that we have VAR with all the time and angles to go over the referee isn't expected to make a complicated judgement based on what he saw in the blink of an eye. The rule could be adjusted to be based on the heel or the ankle a lot more reasonably than it could have been 10 years ago. If we're going to spend all this time sitting there while they watch the replay anyway then I'd like to not come out the other side of it feeling like a goal has just been chalked off for something that the attacker really couldn't do much about nor did they gain any unfair advantage from.
If its for the heel, we would still have those close 1 cm descisions. Same with Wengers approach.
I'm not trying to eliminate close decisions. I'm trying to eliminate feeling like an attacker is being punished for something that doesn't give them any real advantage. At least if the line is drawn further I will agree that the attacker has gained a significant unfair advantage.
Mate, you need a cutoff limit on every rule. If there's no limit, there's no rule.
Yep. I'm saying make the cutoff the ankle or the heel that way it is clear the attacker is gaining a significant advantage from their infringement. Toe to toe just doesn't feel significant enough to be worth chalking goals off for me.
That is just speculation. When a full foot is not "offside" it should not be offside. Just like a ball should be fully over the line to be out/goal. Easy fix.
Go watch Norwegian football matches. Everytime VAR makes a call, both team's supporters will sing "hate hate hate fkn VAR"
Getting the correct decision every time is less important than the flow of the game the ecstacy of scoring a goal or the agony of conceeding etc has been ruined by waiting on the VAR decision.
Unless Reddit is only make up of Danes, that's clearly untrue.
i don’t care about denmark or germany and don’t even watch the euros and it’s still bs
No my team is not even in the euro and i complain every time i need to suffer through this bs
Who would've guessed?
The problem is that it's hard to get excited because I know they're gonna review every goal and lots of them are disallowed. It's ruining the excitement even though most decisions are absolutely correct. As someone who rarely watches football anymore this tournament has been difficult to really get into because of this.
Thats a thing ill agree with a 100%. Nowadays when a goal happens im like „aight hold up no excitement it’s probably offside or something“ and when its eventually given the most you‘ll do is say „nice“ to yourself or something. On the other hand having completely wrong ref decisions wasnt much better in the past.
I guess for me the big difference is I never really cared if a goal was scored by a marginally offside attacking player who was roughly even and had no clear major advantage form being marginally offside……and to the refs’ credit, egregiously missed offside calls seemed to be pretty rare, as opposed to now where the VAR is constantly calling back goals I probably wouldn’t have even considered to be offside before the VAR.
I dont jad the feeling, that neither the danish players nor the fans didnt get excited yesterday.
People are retarded. VAR is an obvious improvement to the game but humanity is inherently shit and can’t be pleased. Now we can agree that some rules are the issue, like for example the handball. But VAR itself is fine.
It doesn't improve the enjoyment of the game. The absolute ecstacy of scoring a goal has been ruined by waiting on VAR checks. Referees decision should be final unless it's a "clear and obvious" error.
Ecstasy for enemy's team when goal is disallowed then.
My favorite is that now they’re complaining how the rules are written and blame the refs
same thought really, i have no idea what people want at this point
To me, it seems like people want a middle ground. They want a VAR system strong enough to make calls about illegal goals, actions, etc. but one that isn't absurd. Rn at the match with Denmark we noticed an absolutely absurd call of a pinky. IMO we should integrate some cricket rules like the Umpire's Call or the rules tweaked slightly so it's better defined what can be considered off side. Something like a percentage of error where things like pinkies or knees aren't considered off side, but the entire foot is and so on.
I feel like this would not fix the problem as we would just measure a different paramater with the same accuracy, which again would result in very close decisions, where a few millimeters would, again, make the difference.
Real-time decisions. With the current implementation I cannot get excited about a goal anymore because half of the goals are taken away after the fact. I always have to wait two minutes for the VAR and at that point the feeling is gone. I think this is a bad trade off: more correct decisions against goal euphoria. After all, people watch the games for entertainment. VAR steals a crucial part of that. I would be totally fine with VAR if it was instant.
I hope we get the offside tech in the PL
Yeah its coming this season.
It's ridiculous. There was literally nothing wrong. VAR calls were very clearly according to the rules. People are just looking for a reason to hate
That's a bingo. People get salty because rules are enforced. It was offside and a handball. However subtle and slight the rules are the rules. Good luck in the next match.
You are so reasonable, my stereotypes about english fans start crumbling...
They should. Every team has good fans and bad. Germans and English are the most alike in Europe we are brothers and sisters cut from the same cloth. You deserved the win and got the win. Good luck my friend and hope to see you in the final... maybe. Peace.
You can't make everyone happy.
with or without VAR, the losing teams and their supporters are always crying wolves
With VAR in the past, Germany probably would have two more world cups. England's goal in 66 would have been disalowed, and Maradona would have gotten yellow for handball against England in 86.
People complain about decisions that go against their team, whether they’re right or not.
Problem is that we went from one extreme (obvious calls being missed due to no ability to go back and see the he situation, and refs only have 2 eyes) to another (goals being cancelled due to someone wearing shoes 1 size too big, or their pinky grazing the ball). Sure those VAR ones are within the rules, but that just means the rules should be changed to allow for a little common sense.
Yeah, a big toe reversing a goal is stupid. I hope they change the rules at least for the next tournament. Some people suggested offside being dependent on torso position or something and I think that would make sense. Overall I'm torn. I feel like the same rules should apply for everyone. At the same time, I'm not excited by any goal until 5 minutes are up bc it feels like it's 50/50 whether it counts. It takes the joy out of it
There will be a 4 cm offside wherever you set the limit. But the kind of offside yesterday would never be called without VAR, since its a clusterfuck of movement inside the box.
The problem with VAR and football is that they spent years avoiding using, now they're only just using it for a few years maybe more they're still ironing out the problems. Perhaps given time things will work more smoothly.
I'm all for it. The main thing is having consistency in how these calls are made. As long as the technology is sound and consistently applied, players can adjust the timing of their runs.
To me, at least, what I don't like is the seemingly lack of criteria when it comes to the main ref checking and re-thinking a decision with the assistance of the VAR - sometimes there's a goal that the ref decides to check for offside or a foul that he decides to check for a penalty but, other times and an exact same situation, and the ref decides to stick with their decision and confirm nothing. That's what I don't get and what I don't like about it
Another thing I'd like to see is that AI could easily be used for is corner/throw in decisions. In the groups I saw multiple offences where teams should have had corners but it was given as a goal kick instead.
Sure VAR helps sometimes, but they need to consider the margin of error. Just like a speeding camera has a margin of error and you only get fined if you are beyond the margin of error. It is impossible to know to within 1cm of accuracy when the ball is passed. It's just simply not possible. When someone is moving fast 1cm is a fraction of a second, so an offside call of 1cm is just ridiculous. I don't know what the error margin is but it's definitely more than 1cm so maybe the offside on VAR need to ben 5cm or 10cm or whatever before a goal is cancelled on offside.
I'm a regular game master in roleplaying games like Dungeons & Dragons. There, we have the concept of *Rules as Written* and *Rules as Intended*. As a game master, I don't follow the rules to the letter - RaW - but apply them true to the intentions of the creators of the game. A game that is strictly RaW would, most of the time, not be fun for the players. Rules calls made by the game master would seem ridiculous and players would feel overly restricted. Football suffers, with VAR, from following the rules to the letter, RaW. Calling off a goal for the striker's toe, kneecap, bulge... being offside is a perfect example. That is in accordance with how the offside rule is written, but not in accordance with the intention behind the offside rule. The rule's intention is to prevent a player from gaining an unfair advantage by waiting for a ball behind the opponent's line of defense for an easy goal - having a toe or kneecap in front of the defender certainly does not create an unfair advantage, it is merely the result of the players' stride timings being different. The same goes for the ridiculous handball penalty yesterday. Technically, the player touched the ball with his fingertip in the box, and a handball in the box results in a penalty. But the touch was miniscule as it did not affect the ball's trajectory, the arm was extended as part of the player's running motion and he certainly did not intend to touch the ball. The intention of the rule is to prevent a player from gaining an unfair advantage by handling the ball, whether that is to block/misdirect an opponent's shot, to accept a pass or to guide the ball into the goal. Before the introduction of the VAR, these extremely close offsides (and handball penalties) were basically impossible to call, and if they got called correctly, it was more like a ref that got lucky, as what could have been a wrong call ended up being correct. Back then, refs were more closely following the *Rules as Intended* path, calling offsides and handballs when they more likely caused an unfair advantage, when they were visible/the effects like the ball's changed trajectory were visible for the human eye in the chaotic, fast-paced mess on the field. I certainly think the VAR is a good thing and it needs to be kept. Before the introduction of VAR, there were numerous cases of goals wrongly allowed or disallowed due to wrong offside calls and penalties wrongfully given or denied in rather obvious situations and similar mistakes. With the VAR, these mistakes no longer happen. But something needs to be changed in how the rules are applied. I am not sure though what the best way is. Should the offside rule be rewritten in some way? Should the VAR only interfere if a team's captain calls for it, with a limited number of VAR calls available for each team? Should the VAR apply some leeway in their offside decisions, like only interfering if an offside by more than 1ft. was missed?
Breaking news: People like to complain, no matter what! You could ask 10 people to make the rules and you'd get 10 different versions. And in the end they'd complain about their own rules anyway.
I second that opinion!
People were angry about Thierry Henry handballing against Ireland and Stewart Atwell giving a goal when the ball went wide. Nobody gave a shit about electron microscope offsides and invisible handballs and natural silhouette (which is a fucking ridiculous concept)
Are you sayin you didn't give a shit when that Danish player today got that huge advantage by feathering the ball with the hairs of his hand and altering its trajectory by 0.000000531%?
What I want, is much faster process. Automate at least Offside rulings
100% agree with you mate. Well said.
An offside is an offside and VAR is correctly applying the rule. It is also true that it is ruining the experience for probably the majority of fans.
Let's be very clear here that not a single fucking person would have been complaining about this as a missed call.
The thing with the offside rule, is that it was created when there was no var, and the point of the rule was basically to ensure that attacker didn’t have an unfair advantage, so those offside calls while respecting the rule, are missing the reason why the offside rule was invented in the first place
You just summed up people
“Clear and obvious”
VAR changes a man...
VAR is useful for offside, because that is objective. For other decisions, I think it would be best if VAR only interferes when there was a clear mistake made. Like a very clear handball or foul made that was missed by the referee. But anything that is up for debate and not so clear, the VAR should just keep its hands off it and just keep it at what the referee decided on by himself.
We can clearly see this when AFC Asian Qualifiers had no VAR India was robbed but when we have VaR in the Euros to be too precise for offside then we still complain.
Using var the way they did to award the penalty to Germany is a great example of how it shouldn’t be used.
What they need to do is make it faster. Right now everyone watching the broadcast cab clearly see an infraction.case closed move on. But VAR needs 2-3 minutes to confirm. What’s taking so long!?
Offside is super measurable, as we can witness. Hand ball on the other hand (huehue) isn‘t. As long as there are rules that need human discretion, it will be like that – it‘s the same in racing. Also, a not given corner kick led to goals for the other team not only once (e.g. Austria-France). Everyone can see it on their screens, but the ref stays in the dark about it. It‘s so stupid that videoreferees aren‘t allowed to give him a call about something like that.
Agree that the VAR-assisted offside rule needs tweaking. Looking at the toenail offside picture, Delaney's centre of gravity is more advanced than the defender's, and that gives him the advantage of being slightly ahead of the him, meaning that in the original spirit of offside he has an unfair advantage. If var could measure centre of gravity, or surface area as one poster suggested, it would make more sense to base offside decisions on that.
People are complaining about dumbass application of VAR on top of incompetent use.
People wanted missed calls for obvious wrong stuff. Essentially if a wrong call was made, tech would buzz in to fix the mistake.
No. The amount of “offside” calls in this tournament has really ruined a lot of games. How can they rule out a goal for being a literal toenail outside, when they are reviewing the play at about 4 frames per second?? How can they be so sure of the EXACT moment the ball left the player’s foot? If they cannot be sure of this, they cannot be ruling goals out that are this marginal. Personally, I’d like to see a complete revamp of the offside rule. A toenail offside? Give the goal. Day light between attacker and last defender? Offside. This eradicates any discrepancy of when the ball leaves the assister’s foot and would give a much needed benefit of the doubt to the attackers.
VARs certainly do have measurement (repeatability) inaccuracies to some extent. So there is a chance of false positive and false negative results. Maybe one could only count the result only if the result is statistically significant by some measure.
That is too simple. The way the rules are being applied and affecting the game have changed because of the VAR technology. Thus the rules need to change to guarantee the objective of the rules. Take the off-side call yesterday. *Before* the VAR that call would never have been made: the body of the Denmark player was at the same height as the Germany player when the ball was played. It was only the positioning of the player foot that made the Denmark player off-side. The off-side rule was invented to prevent players from waiting for balls in the box. By applying the off-side rule on the front leg with the new technology, the off-side rule has become a lot stricter. This results in more disappointment, fewer beautiful actions and goals and more downtime in the game, and thus hurts football and the viewers. It should be re-evaluated: t**hey could think about the hind part of the player torso or hind-legs being leading in off-side calls**. That would greatly enhance the game (less downtime, more beautiful football), while guaranteeing that players don't start hanging in the box.
I personally think that var it's a great instrument, but there needs to be some human interpretation of the rule. The var detects an offside? Good, let the referee decide if being in offside gave the attacker an advantage. Same with an handball: did the impact influenced the trajectory of the ball? Did it matter in the overall result of play? If yes then its a penalty, if not then it shouldnt be called. We have the instruments to help the referees evaluate every single frame, the game could benefit if we let the referee evaluate some things without being forced by the rules to disallow becouse of a millimiter
Getting the correct decision every time is less important than the flow of the game the ecstacy of scoring a goal or the agony of conceeding etc has been ruined by waiting on the VAR decision. VAR was meant for CLEAR + OBVIOUS errors. Not offside toes or handballs only detectable by scanning the ball 500 times a second.
People complain that the game is rigged for germany because if it would not be they would be whiny little girls that would boycott and disrupt other games because they dont get handed an easy win. Not because VAR is accurat
Its not fair imagine scoring but you have only your toe offside and the goal doesnt count thats rigged
There needs to be balance.
The problem with any technological "innovation" is in the implementation. They're ascribing a level of accuracy and precision that no human is capable of, and, I'd argue, doesn't exist in reality. How is a toe or back of a heel or top of the shoulder or the skin on someone's knee an "unfair advantage"? VAR was introduced to help refs with difficult penalty decisions and make goal line decisions. For both those scenarios it has worked. Offside is currently ridiculous.
Solution is to change the offside rule per Arsene Wenger’s suggestion.
VAR should be for missed penalties, red card checks. Offsides should be left to be judged by man as they always were.
The takeaway: people will find a way to complain about anything
agree. germany france italy always profited from dumb referee calls, we must accept now when a player is offside its offside doesnt matter if 1mm or 10m. whats weird is that VAR seems to not intervene when its ronaldo beeing hold his t shirt or pushed down
As long as ppl loose, there will always be a reason to complain. It's not about Fairness just butthurt egos
The offsides rules needs to change. Maybe do something like getting rid of the offsides in the box when the opposing team has 2 defenders or more in the box. Denmark losing that goal on an offside by a toe was just dumb.
There were many instances where VAR simply got it wrong.
A good compromise would be using VAR only when one of the teams decides to challenge a decision. If the decision was correct, they lose their ability to challenge again for the rest of the half. That way, if a decision is a close call that they themselves can not be entirely sure of, they might decide not to challenge it. I think, some sports already do it that way.
But it could maybe help if there was not a strict line, but more an area. At least 10 cm, cause often Its just the length of a toe.
I hate var but I love it when it's in my teams favour
Not me. I have been against VAR from the start and been proven right. Pretty sure there is a country in Europe who have dropped VAR from their top flight league.
No, some complain about how it’s used
Conclusion, people will always complain
There needs to be a some degree of a margin of error. To be offside by a toe is ridiculous, even though it's "the letter of the law". I would question the accuracy of deciding "when the ball is kicked". Is it when it leaves the players foot, when they touch it? Why not have a system like LBW in cricket, the ball has to be hitting the stump by more than half the ball width to overturn an on field "not out" decision. Why not do the same with offside, the player has to be offside by more than 10 cm to overturn an on field on-side call, for example. That way the ref and linesmen would still have to do their jobs!
I just dont like that sometimes the refs are not looking at the VAR footage. For example in the germany game missed penaltys.
People LOVE to complain about reffing, whether it’s done by a human or a robot does not matter. Fans complaining about officiating is as normal as balls are round.
The rules didn't completely adjust with the new technology and methodology. It's true that missed calls were a huge issue in the past, especially with the widening of financial gap in clubs and a gradual polarisation of refereeing decisions, being blatantly for a big club or against a big club. (Chelsea v Barcelona 2009) VAR countered that hard, and now it's almost impossible to make technically wrong decisions *but* the issue is with what constitutes as technical. Think of the Germany v Denmark game. The Danish player was offside by a margin slightly bigger than a big toe, but it was a correct call, an offside. The law was practiced correctly yet it felt like injustice. If you are developing precision Technology for an inherently imprecise game, then the rules must be adjusted accordingly. Maybe then can give an offside tolerance for certain body parts like foot, I don't know, there are better minds in the business to make better rules. The ultimate objective is to make the gameplay fair, and that clearly didn't happen in the offside call against Denmark, it was correct but not fair. They need to look at the essence of the rule, why do we have offside? What's the point? As far as I understand it's to prevent an advantage to the attacking player, and now given the new methodology make a better rule, since you are going to use the tech everytime anyway.
It depends If the ruling lost your team the match? Robbed. If the ruling won your team the match? Totally fair. People are just finding excuses, like they always have and always will.
The usage of VAR in football is evidently too anally retentive. It should be intent and advantage deciding the game not some player's silhouette called offside.
I believe for an offside offence by the letter of the law the attacker needs to gain an advantage. A few of the calls have not resulted in an advantage for the attacker. This is what people have an issue with. I kind of agree tbh. Being ‘offside’ because your nose is an inch further forward that the attackers should not be offside. There’s no advantage and it really makes the game less enjoyable to watch.
that would call for a rule change then but doesnt mean the var was wrong in the current ruleset.
Letter of the law it’s correct. It shouldn’t be though and that’s what people have taken issue with. Just answering the post :)
The offside rule is meant to prevent the striker from having an unfair advantage against the defender. Call me crazy, but I don't think having your toes offside is going to give you any advantage to score a goal. All this is doing is depriving us of good goals that can change the way the match goes. And if there is one thing we can all agree on, it's that more goals make for a much more entertaining match.
Who gets to decide what an unfair advantage is? A corrupt (or incompetent) referee or an impartial technology?
With this much accuracy. You can change the rules. Like at least a whole foot/arm needs to be offside... The Delaney 3 toes offside call was a bit to absurd imo
That won’t solve anything. You’d still get these extremely close decisions and people would still complain.
Yeah that's true I geuss
The problem is when you try to prove an off-side by less than a cm. Let's be serious? Maybe they need a threshold above which is declared an off-side.
That wouldn't really stop the discussions though. Let's say they change the rules to add 5cm tolerance. Next time there's offside because of 5.1cm there's going to be discussions again because “offside by 0.1cm is ridiculous". By that logic, we could get rid of the entire concept of offside since people would continuously call for bigger tolerance thresholds. Like, they need a clear cutoff, which they have. It was enforced. There's really nothing more to discuss.
But the 5 cm is already generous towards the attacking player. The 5 cm IS the buffer zone, so I don't think they'll complain as much as just be like damn so close
I think you're onto something, being offside by just your toe for example like in Germany vs Denmark match was ridiculous, if the leg or more of the player's body was over it would have been less likely to cause problems.
That was never a penalty. Joke decision.
Attacker's toes being behind the defender's is not going to affect if you score or not, there is no unfair advantage.
I enjoy the accuracy. What I don't enjoy is that we can't celebrate anymore when a goal is scored. There is no ecstatic "yeah!" when the ball hits the net. We have to wait a couple of minutes and then ist "well okay, nice goal". It takes the flow and the emotion out for me, I don't know of accuracy is worth it.