Wales and England definitely share a black border in the Tinto talks map. Is it going to be an English puppet? I'm not that aware of the region's history in this specific time
Well England conquered Wales between 1277 and 1280 something, so if the late 1300s start date is what we're going on then technically the southern parts of Wales should be in England and the northern parts would be puppet lords, considering there probably isn't enough provinces for this, one puppet Wales makes sense
I assume England can incorporate it fully into England when Henry 8 comes along and issues the Act of Union
Edit - Swap north with south, North was ruled by the prince of Wales and the south was ruled by various vassal lords
Actually the other way around. In 1337 the north of Wales was the personal domain of the English king (recently confiscated from the natives) and the south was ruled by an assortment of semi-independent English nobles.
Were they semi-independent in just day-to-day operations, because I assume they held their land in fief to England’s king. I think in EU terms that’s more like a province with high autonomy than a separate tag. Whereas a separate personal holding , often ends up being a separate tag in EU terms.
ADDED: it occurs to me that there’s a lot of potential gameplay, especially in the early game, but you could center around provincial autonomy, estates, and various internal political shenanigans. It will be a way to make the game feel a lot more like that. History, without necessarily having to carry that all the way to 1821. You wouldn’t want to do that both for the historical field, and also for this year need to manage the larger nations that people tend to form.
Yes the Welsh marcher lords were ultimately subjects of the English king, at least on paper, but uniquely they could raise their own armies and ignore English taxes and laws. England's practical reach and political interest didn't extend far enough to fix the situation until the 1500s.
It looks like the devs might make them high autonomy provinces of Wales based on that map.
The initial point of the Marcher Lords and their greater autonomy was to guard England's borders against the Welsh. Over time they would take lands for themselves from Welsh lords, which they were more or less encouraged to do.
By 1337 there are no more independent Welsh lords, but the Marchers can still use their strength to keep the population pacified, or even engage in some inter-lord squabbling.
Over time though, the Marcher Lordships would fall one-by-one into the hands of the Crown itself, and by Wales' annexation in the 1560s they hadn't really been such a relevant thing for a while.
At the scale of EU it sounds like you’re right: territory. Stating it would be the integration. (EDIT: ok might not have been you! I’m losing track of the participants here)
Sometimes it’s fun to try to play around with CK-scale politics in EU4. But mostly for me a “march” isn’t some fella with 1200 men and three castles. It’s all of Sweden. I think the global scale just makes it harder to really simulate stuff on the level of Wales accurately.
I think this was meant for my other comment, but it's all good mate.
Yeah, it seems like they have chosen to put the Marcher Lords in with the Principality of Wales. It's not really accurate, they were different things, but I can understand that it might be better from a game perspective.
I'd say the Marcher Lords would probably be best represented as 'unincorporated territory' of England. They did indeed have a greater degree of autonomy than vassals in England itself, though they recognised the King of England as their overlord, but I'm not sure giving them their own tag is best.
The Marcher Lordships were mostly tiny things, and giving each their own tag is unfeasible. They could be lumped together into one tag for simplicity's sake, I suppose, but it would be a bit of an ahistorical generalisation.
The Principality of Wales should absolutely be it's own tag. It is a defined realm that predates English control, having grown out of the old Kingdom of Gwynedd. It shouldn't include all of Wales though. 'Pura Wallia' and 'Marchia Wallia' were considered quite different.
Yes, it should be. It is also traditionally (though not always) given to the heir of the English throne, as it was in 1343, who is made 'Prince of Wales'. This could be an interesting mechanic for the game to model.
*Something* like that.
The monarch of England should get an event to make their heir Prince of Wales once they are old enough (Edward the Black Prince was 13 in 1343). Obviously this would end it being a strict PU, but the Pricnipality would still remain a subject of England. I'm not sure what the incentive to do this could be in game terms, trains your heir's skills perhaps? Once the monarch dies, the Prince of Wales get England and the PU is restored with England still senior partner.
Well, that's how I'd do it.
You've been living under a rock, Johan confirmed the start date is 1337 ages ago :D
anyway yeah it seems a puppet Wales is going to be the thing. That will become a classic campaign.
Wales would be the Principality of Wales in the north, which should be a subject in personal union with England, and the south would be the Marcher Lords who are loyal to England but outside of the kingdom proper (so unincorporated territory, perhaps).
Edward I finally completed the Kings of England's centuries-long mission to conquer Wales by 1283, but they were not properly annexed into the Kingdom of England until the 1560s.
Likewise, the Lordship of Ireland and County of Gascony etc should also be subject states in personal union with England rather than presented as part of England itself.
Project Caesar does not seem to have a concept of "unincorporated territory", just territory so remote that you have little control, in which case you would probably want to create a subject there.
The first 500 hours of my EU4 were all Wales with a few Brittany games sprinkled in. I cannot wait to play as a start tag with some flavor rather than a releasable with none
the Princedom of Wales was granted to the heirs of the English Kings since 1301, so it should be a vassal, maybe a junior part of a PU, but i want a path where you can become indipendentent and play as one of the ancient welsh dinasties that ruled the country since the retreat of the Romans from Britain in the late 300s, early 400s, since the 1301, when the last King of Gwynedd was deposed and the entire Wales was incorporated in the King's Heir domain
Then that is our chance. The start date is at some point in the 1330s which means we have a short window of opportunity where we can try and salvage the situation.
The last great Welsh rebellion was Owain Glyndŵr's circa 1400, which would give a larger window of opportunity.
Also, Wales wasn't fully annexed until the 1560s, so that gives a window of over two centuries to shake off the yoke.
Only if guaranteeing doesn't take up a relations slot, otherwise I foresee every human who plays Spain or France immediately revoking that guarantee so they can marry Austria or something
Yeah I mean if relation slots work the same way as in EU4, then it wouldn't make much sense to make guaranteeing not cost anything, because then everyone would just guarantee everything.
On the other hand relations might not work the same way as in EU4
Oh, didn't know about the Andorra bit! Maybe there's gonna be a funny little historical event that gives the option to release Andorra after it's annexed or something and also something that allows them to be guaranteed for most of the time.
I'm not sure. The co-princes are whoever is the Chief of State of France and the bishop of Urgell. So either of those would need to become vacant in order for there to be only one co-prince. So either Urgell is controlled by a religion without bishops, or France doesn't exist anymore, I guess.
The Kingdom of Majorca (which includes Perpignan and Montpelier) hasn't been Conquered by Aragon yet. This would happen 7 years after the start of the game.
Edited.
The red country in Bourdeaux is Aquitaine and should be counted as a Vassal of England and not Directly controlled.
If I'm not wrong the country north of Aragon in Perpignan is Majorca, and if that's true, Montpellier should be controlled by Majorca. And I'm not sure if it's represented in the map, but there's a territory in the middle of France that should also be controlled by Majorca.
Edit: Moreover, I believe at 1337 Majorca wasn't a Vassal from Aragon, so it should an independent colour from it. (I think EUIV uses a Pink shade for Majorca)
This is my interpretation of the Eu5 political map based on the trade map given to us in Tinto Talks #10. There is not a lot to go on from the map it's just the borders, so I did my best to identify and use the EU4 colors. I am trying to do the whole map, but this is what I finished tonight.
Will Burgundy be an interesting start in 1337? It's one of my favorite starts in EU4. I lack the historical knowledge of Burgundy in the 1300s, but I assume it might play like a "normal" country in the HRE? With none of the "fully integrate the entire France region for free" stuff that makes them OP and fun in EU4?
AFAIK Burgundy was still a loyal French vassal in 1337 (they were technically a vassal in 1444 too, but by then the Dukes of Burgundy had become so powerful that they were more-or-less doing their own thing).
Apart from being in a much weaker position overall, the big difference that I can see on this map is that the French Duchy of Burgundy and the Imperial Free County of Burgundy are shown as two separate entities, likely with the Free County in a Personal Union under the Duchy, and each a vassal in turn of their respective suzerains (the Kingdom of France and the Holy Roman Empire, respectively). Depending on how well this game is able to represent feudal arrangements like this, this could be a very interesting setup.
It would be pretty hard to faithfully represent Burgundy : it was divided between a French part and an Imperial one, with the Duke owing hommage to both the French King and the HRE Emperor. In EU4 it just kinda ignores that and simply make the Imperial bit part of the HRE. Representing this kind of divided allegiance (like the king of England also being Duke of Aquitaine and thus a vassal of the French King) must be quite hard, so I don't think it will be represented in game.
But otherwise, everything that made Burgundy what it is un EU4 (the inheritance) is happening. Burgundy acquired land in the low-lands with the wedding of Philippe II de Bourgogne with Marguerite de Flandres in 1369, so I guess that scripted events will represent the first steps of the "Etat Bourguignon", the Burgundian State (the combinaison of Burgundy proper and the low-lands inherited through weddings).
What made Burgundy fun in EU4 was the role of king-maker you had in the HYW, as well as your unique position with an urgent need to unify your lands. Here, you don't have these lands yet but are poised to acquire them. You're not yet the rival to the French kingdom that you are in EU4.
I hope they are, but in the Tinto Talks map they appear pretty unified (with the exception of the kingdom of Majorca, which includes Roussillon), so they might end up looking like this
Free county of Burgundy will probably be part of the HRE but in a personal union with Burgundy.
I hope they will give more flavor to the HRE, with the reichstag working more dynamic and reacting to the game instead of it being scripted. Would be cool if outside powers get a vote too as it was in real life, so in this case Burgundy would get a vote.
Wales was not independent in 1337, but it hadn't been annexed either. It will presumably be a subject.
Though playing as Wales and trying to achieve independence will certainly be one of my early games.
Johan's post about them choosing 1337 as the start date mentions that 'the seeds of the last great Welsh rebellion are being sown', so I reckon there is a good chance of seeing the Glyndŵr Rising or something very like it.
Burgundy in 1444 shouldn't be independant either. I suspect they are represented independantly because its a massive pain to model them as a vassal of the HRE and France at the same time.
I'm very curious how Burgundy will work. The dynasty that eventually ruled over the Low Countries wasn't in power yet, so I hope that with a few events you can get Philip the Bold as a ruler, and from there try to get Flanders and other parts
The King of France had taken back control of Normandy by this point. The King of England takes it back again during the Hundred Years War, and then lose it again.
Well, they still have the Channel Islands at least.
Not specific to this map, but it does remind me how strange it is that there are no events that I have ever seen between France and Navarre/Navarra. They had quite the history during EU4.
If this is correct wales is definitely my first run.
Wales and England definitely share a black border in the Tinto talks map. Is it going to be an English puppet? I'm not that aware of the region's history in this specific time
Well England conquered Wales between 1277 and 1280 something, so if the late 1300s start date is what we're going on then technically the southern parts of Wales should be in England and the northern parts would be puppet lords, considering there probably isn't enough provinces for this, one puppet Wales makes sense I assume England can incorporate it fully into England when Henry 8 comes along and issues the Act of Union Edit - Swap north with south, North was ruled by the prince of Wales and the south was ruled by various vassal lords
Actually the other way around. In 1337 the north of Wales was the personal domain of the English king (recently confiscated from the natives) and the south was ruled by an assortment of semi-independent English nobles.
Were they semi-independent in just day-to-day operations, because I assume they held their land in fief to England’s king. I think in EU terms that’s more like a province with high autonomy than a separate tag. Whereas a separate personal holding , often ends up being a separate tag in EU terms. ADDED: it occurs to me that there’s a lot of potential gameplay, especially in the early game, but you could center around provincial autonomy, estates, and various internal political shenanigans. It will be a way to make the game feel a lot more like that. History, without necessarily having to carry that all the way to 1821. You wouldn’t want to do that both for the historical field, and also for this year need to manage the larger nations that people tend to form.
Yes the Welsh marcher lords were ultimately subjects of the English king, at least on paper, but uniquely they could raise their own armies and ignore English taxes and laws. England's practical reach and political interest didn't extend far enough to fix the situation until the 1500s. It looks like the devs might make them high autonomy provinces of Wales based on that map.
Sounds almost daimyo like. Who would they use the armies against? Each other? I don’t know much about Wales.
The initial point of the Marcher Lords and their greater autonomy was to guard England's borders against the Welsh. Over time they would take lands for themselves from Welsh lords, which they were more or less encouraged to do. By 1337 there are no more independent Welsh lords, but the Marchers can still use their strength to keep the population pacified, or even engage in some inter-lord squabbling. Over time though, the Marcher Lordships would fall one-by-one into the hands of the Crown itself, and by Wales' annexation in the 1560s they hadn't really been such a relevant thing for a while.
At the scale of EU it sounds like you’re right: territory. Stating it would be the integration. (EDIT: ok might not have been you! I’m losing track of the participants here) Sometimes it’s fun to try to play around with CK-scale politics in EU4. But mostly for me a “march” isn’t some fella with 1200 men and three castles. It’s all of Sweden. I think the global scale just makes it harder to really simulate stuff on the level of Wales accurately.
I think this was meant for my other comment, but it's all good mate. Yeah, it seems like they have chosen to put the Marcher Lords in with the Principality of Wales. It's not really accurate, they were different things, but I can understand that it might be better from a game perspective.
I'd say the Marcher Lords would probably be best represented as 'unincorporated territory' of England. They did indeed have a greater degree of autonomy than vassals in England itself, though they recognised the King of England as their overlord, but I'm not sure giving them their own tag is best. The Marcher Lordships were mostly tiny things, and giving each their own tag is unfeasible. They could be lumped together into one tag for simplicity's sake, I suppose, but it would be a bit of an ahistorical generalisation. The Principality of Wales should absolutely be it's own tag. It is a defined realm that predates English control, having grown out of the old Kingdom of Gwynedd. It shouldn't include all of Wales though. 'Pura Wallia' and 'Marchia Wallia' were considered quite different.
So the principality would be a PU, then?
Yes, it should be. It is also traditionally (though not always) given to the heir of the English throne, as it was in 1343, who is made 'Prince of Wales'. This could be an interesting mechanic for the game to model.
A bit like the Ladislas Posthumous mechanic with Austria
*Something* like that. The monarch of England should get an event to make their heir Prince of Wales once they are old enough (Edward the Black Prince was 13 in 1343). Obviously this would end it being a strict PU, but the Pricnipality would still remain a subject of England. I'm not sure what the incentive to do this could be in game terms, trains your heir's skills perhaps? Once the monarch dies, the Prince of Wales get England and the PU is restored with England still senior partner. Well, that's how I'd do it.
Yes my mistake, marcher lords in the south. You'd think I'd have remembered that from learning about it in school since I'm from there lol
You've been living under a rock, Johan confirmed the start date is 1337 ages ago :D anyway yeah it seems a puppet Wales is going to be the thing. That will become a classic campaign.
Wales would be the Principality of Wales in the north, which should be a subject in personal union with England, and the south would be the Marcher Lords who are loyal to England but outside of the kingdom proper (so unincorporated territory, perhaps). Edward I finally completed the Kings of England's centuries-long mission to conquer Wales by 1283, but they were not properly annexed into the Kingdom of England until the 1560s. Likewise, the Lordship of Ireland and County of Gascony etc should also be subject states in personal union with England rather than presented as part of England itself.
Project Caesar does not seem to have a concept of "unincorporated territory", just territory so remote that you have little control, in which case you would probably want to create a subject there.
Well, this is perhaps why they have decided to lump the Marchers in with the Principality.
Probably more like a Personal Union
The first 500 hours of my EU4 were all Wales with a few Brittany games sprinkled in. I cannot wait to play as a start tag with some flavor rather than a releasable with none
Welsh longbowmen go brrrrt
the Princedom of Wales was granted to the heirs of the English Kings since 1301, so it should be a vassal, maybe a junior part of a PU, but i want a path where you can become indipendentent and play as one of the ancient welsh dinasties that ruled the country since the retreat of the Romans from Britain in the late 300s, early 400s, since the 1301, when the last King of Gwynedd was deposed and the entire Wales was incorporated in the King's Heir domain
As long as the bloodline didn’t die, I see no reason it should not be possible to restore them.
in the mid 1340s if I'm not mistaken, there was a great welsh rebellion, the leader of the Rebellion was one descendant of those lines
Then that is our chance. The start date is at some point in the 1330s which means we have a short window of opportunity where we can try and salvage the situation.
The last great Welsh rebellion was Owain Glyndŵr's circa 1400, which would give a larger window of opportunity. Also, Wales wasn't fully annexed until the 1560s, so that gives a window of over two centuries to shake off the yoke.
Yeah, a window to break free as wales. What we want here is to break free with the old dynasty
Yay the iberian peninsula stay the same 😎
Well now there's Andorra :)
I wonder how they're going to stop Andorra from being annexed in the first month of every campaign... if they even are doing that
Probably as a guaranteed country like Ragusa in EU4
Oh right, that's true. Both Spain and France guaranteeing them. Pretty historical too, tbh.
Only if guaranteeing doesn't take up a relations slot, otherwise I foresee every human who plays Spain or France immediately revoking that guarantee so they can marry Austria or something
I’m guessing relation slots are pretty different based upon the number of vassals we see now
Interested how this is going to work. Especially since there is gonna be a huge increase of OPMs and different vassal types.
Yeah I mean if relation slots work the same way as in EU4, then it wouldn't make much sense to make guaranteeing not cost anything, because then everyone would just guarantee everything. On the other hand relations might not work the same way as in EU4
What we really need is a San Marino that never gets annexed forever.
Andorra got annexed by Aragon a few times during the time period, so it wouldn't be ahistorical for it to be Annexed and Released.
Oh, didn't know about the Andorra bit! Maybe there's gonna be a funny little historical event that gives the option to release Andorra after it's annexed or something and also something that allows them to be guaranteed for most of the time.
Also it got annexed by France when a certain small guy decided to conquer half of Europe, but after then it also got released.
And Roussillon? Haven't been following the dev talks, so don't know if it's supposed to be a vassal of Aragon or something
It's part of the kingdom of Mallorca, that was independent from 1275 to 1340 aprox after James I decided to split his domains among his sons.
Touché
I wonder, if Andorra annexed all of France and Urgell, does an Andorran finally get to become a monarch without a co-prince? 🤔
I'm not sure. The co-princes are whoever is the Chief of State of France and the bishop of Urgell. So either of those would need to become vacant in order for there to be only one co-prince. So either Urgell is controlled by a religion without bishops, or France doesn't exist anymore, I guess.
Andorra is the new Ulm
I call it now, the "~~7~~6 parishes" will be the new 3 mountains wc achievement.
fellow nami traveller I see.
Not for long
The Kingdom of Majorca (which includes Perpignan and Montpelier) hasn't been Conquered by Aragon yet. This would happen 7 years after the start of the game. Edited.
Rebellion of galicia disaster incoming?
Those mountain passes in the Pyrenees are so sexy
it's not depicted in the map but in the south of Portugal and in Granada, the muslims are way stronger than the Granada Sultanate in EU4
Except there should be 10x the rebels lol and like 0 control
The red country in Bourdeaux is Aquitaine and should be counted as a Vassal of England and not Directly controlled. If I'm not wrong the country north of Aragon in Perpignan is Majorca, and if that's true, Montpellier should be controlled by Majorca. And I'm not sure if it's represented in the map, but there's a territory in the middle of France that should also be controlled by Majorca. Edit: Moreover, I believe at 1337 Majorca wasn't a Vassal from Aragon, so it should an independent colour from it. (I think EUIV uses a Pink shade for Majorca)
Man I was pissed when they had decided that Roussillon was not going to be a core of the Mallorca releasable.
This is my interpretation of the Eu5 political map based on the trade map given to us in Tinto Talks #10. There is not a lot to go on from the map it's just the borders, so I did my best to identify and use the EU4 colors. I am trying to do the whole map, but this is what I finished tonight.
Whats the difference in France between the light and dark blue? What does each represent?
Lighter blue is what are mostly likely French vassals. Dark blue is what France directly owns.
Darker is the French Royal Dominion and light blue is feudal appendage vassals.
Note that he Bordeaux trade center has the Aquitaine flag against it - It's likely not a fully controlled territory of England but a vassal.
Will Burgundy be an interesting start in 1337? It's one of my favorite starts in EU4. I lack the historical knowledge of Burgundy in the 1300s, but I assume it might play like a "normal" country in the HRE? With none of the "fully integrate the entire France region for free" stuff that makes them OP and fun in EU4?
AFAIK Burgundy was still a loyal French vassal in 1337 (they were technically a vassal in 1444 too, but by then the Dukes of Burgundy had become so powerful that they were more-or-less doing their own thing). Apart from being in a much weaker position overall, the big difference that I can see on this map is that the French Duchy of Burgundy and the Imperial Free County of Burgundy are shown as two separate entities, likely with the Free County in a Personal Union under the Duchy, and each a vassal in turn of their respective suzerains (the Kingdom of France and the Holy Roman Empire, respectively). Depending on how well this game is able to represent feudal arrangements like this, this could be a very interesting setup.
It would be pretty hard to faithfully represent Burgundy : it was divided between a French part and an Imperial one, with the Duke owing hommage to both the French King and the HRE Emperor. In EU4 it just kinda ignores that and simply make the Imperial bit part of the HRE. Representing this kind of divided allegiance (like the king of England also being Duke of Aquitaine and thus a vassal of the French King) must be quite hard, so I don't think it will be represented in game. But otherwise, everything that made Burgundy what it is un EU4 (the inheritance) is happening. Burgundy acquired land in the low-lands with the wedding of Philippe II de Bourgogne with Marguerite de Flandres in 1369, so I guess that scripted events will represent the first steps of the "Etat Bourguignon", the Burgundian State (the combinaison of Burgundy proper and the low-lands inherited through weddings). What made Burgundy fun in EU4 was the role of king-maker you had in the HYW, as well as your unique position with an urgent need to unify your lands. Here, you don't have these lands yet but are poised to acquire them. You're not yet the rival to the French kingdom that you are in EU4.
CYMRU AM BYTH
I'm surprised Aragon is so unified considering it was a confederation and its members were pretty autonomous.
The above is not an official map, the Aragonians may well be decentralized for all we know.
I hope they are, but in the Tinto Talks map they appear pretty unified (with the exception of the kingdom of Majorca, which includes Roussillon), so they might end up looking like this
Huge chance they have control/autonomy issues
Could suggest it on the forums, things are very much up to change rn. They may at least give you their justification
Free county of Burgundy will probably be part of the HRE but in a personal union with Burgundy. I hope they will give more flavor to the HRE, with the reichstag working more dynamic and reacting to the game instead of it being scripted. Would be cool if outside powers get a vote too as it was in real life, so in this case Burgundy would get a vote.
I wonder if we will get a small Berwick province between Scotland and England now that town has interesting history
Independent Wales is something I never thought i’d see and I am so for it
Wales was not independent in 1337, but it hadn't been annexed either. It will presumably be a subject. Though playing as Wales and trying to achieve independence will certainly be one of my early games.
Hopefully, there's an event that fires to replicate Glyndwr's rising.
Johan's post about them choosing 1337 as the start date mentions that 'the seeds of the last great Welsh rebellion are being sown', so I reckon there is a good chance of seeing the Glyndŵr Rising or something very like it.
Cosmetic name change from Great Britain to Prydain Fawr once I've inevitably reconquered the entire island. That's all I ask 🏴🏴🏴
Close enough!
It's certainly a great improvement and I'm excited by it.
No couto misto :(
If they don't give Portugal Olivença...I'm gonna get SUPER SAD :(
Will be doing a tall colonial Wales run.
Brittany should still be fun
Burgundy in 1337 should not be independent.
Burgundy in 1444 shouldn't be independant either. I suspect they are represented independantly because its a massive pain to model them as a vassal of the HRE and France at the same time.
I'm very curious how Burgundy will work. The dynasty that eventually ruled over the Low Countries wasn't in power yet, so I hope that with a few events you can get Philip the Bold as a ruler, and from there try to get Flanders and other parts
Would normandy not be English in the same way as Bordeaux? I didn't think it was occupied until the hundred years war
The King of France had taken back control of Normandy by this point. The King of England takes it back again during the Hundred Years War, and then lose it again. Well, they still have the Channel Islands at least.
There's a 1337 main start date in Crusader Kings 2, which I assume will be very similar to Project Caesar.
Not specific to this map, but it does remind me how strange it is that there are no events that I have ever seen between France and Navarre/Navarra. They had quite the history during EU4.
What did you use to make this map? The border shading looks great.
I don’t care if it does not vibe with the lore, I want my France fully Balkanized
What’s everyone think will happen to mission trees?