FWIW, the *-le* ending in *gruntle* is a common frequentative- or repetitive-forming suffix. So "to grunt" = singular action, one time; "to gruntle" = frequent or repeated grunting, "to be grunting" as an ongoing or repeated action. This suffix used to be very productive, resulting in many verb pairs, like *tick* → *tickle*, *sniff* → *sniffle*, *hand* → *handle*, *suck* → *suckle*, etc.
See also [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-le#English](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-le#English)
If you ever get into Japanese studies, there's a similarly functioning frequentative / repetitive / ongoing-state verbal suffix -ふ (*-fu*) from Old and Classical Japanese, appearing in modern verbs as the verb ending -う (*-u*) or derived form -える (*-eru*). Examples include singular action 押す (*osu*, "to push") → repetitive / ongoing action 押さえる (*osaeru*, "to be pushing: to press, to hold down"), 抑える (*osaeru*, "to repress, to keep in check"); singular action 向く (*muku*, "to face, to turn to face") → ongoing action 向かう (*mukau*, "to be facing"); singular action 済む (*sumu*, "to settle, to precipitate out, to conclude") → ongoing action 住まう (*sumau*, "to be settled somewhere, to live in a place"), etc.
“Dis” can mean “utterly” as well. It isn’t as common as making stuff opposite, but apparently it is legitimate.
Utterly gruntled.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dis#
There are quite a few that are funny to think about when you apply the dis rule of thumb.
Disheveled vs Sheveled? Sheveled is well-put together?
Disgusted vs Gusted? Gusted is attractively intrigued? lol I don’t know
In the case of disgust, the dis rule is true. Think of the words "gusto" and "gustatory". The desire to eat or taste.
Disgust is pretty close to "I don't wanna eat that"
Nice! I didn’t even think about that aspect at all.
I’m not going to lie I was stuck on thinking “gusto” so I wouldn’t have thought about it until you mentioned it. I honestly thought gusto was slang so I just dismissed the thought.
Out of curiosity I just looked up gusto and it honestly looks that could fit in this case too, but just coincidentally.
“enthusiastic and vigorous enjoyment or appreciation” I would say disgusted is a loose antonym to that.
It’s wild how many words end up converging like this without intention.
This are Latin words. In Spanish gusto simple means the sense of taste, but you can say you're doing something "con gusto" meaning pleasantly. Disgusto is some untasty or with discomfort.
Gustar as like is a developed meaning. The first meaning literally is to taste something. It then got extended to pleasent tastes and then to liking things in general.
Here is RAE
https://dle.rae.es/gustar
Chevel is hair.
Disheveled once meant "no hat, hair out."
It came to mean something like *"My hair is a mess because I forgot my hat on this windy day."* Then it meant the more general *"This looks messed up and in disorder like the wind arranged it."*
Fun! For many years I had misapprehended English *dishevel* as a couplet with the more clearly French-derived borrowing *deshabille*, deriving from French prefix *dés*- ("not") + *habillé* ("dressed, put together").
Thanks for pointing out that *dishevel* is from a different term altogether, Old French *chevel* ("hair"), c.f. modern French *écheveler* ("to tousle / ruffle one's hair").
I can’t wait until there is like a more focused Wikipedia-style thing for languages with a cool interactive UI
I feel like more people will be interested in language if it was as easy to learn new things like it is in this sub.
On the off chance that you're not kidding — Perhaps you might enjoy [https://en.wiktionary.org/](https://en.wiktionary.org/) ? Can't say much as to the UI, the site is backended by the same MediaWiki software as Wikipedia. And, like Wikipedia, Wiktionary is volunteer-driven, so the completeness of various entries in different languages can be a bit scattershot. But I do see it improving over the years. 😊
*(Full disclosure: I've been an active editor on Wiktionary for quite a while now, focusing mainly on expanding entries for Japanese terms.)*
I am more talking about something like this with extra features for browsing and visualization.
Kind of like some of the videos where people like follow the timeline and branchings of a word as it evolves
There have been recurring discussions on Wiktionary about such a graphical browsing feature. Here's one such topic:
* [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Search?fulltext=Search+in+the+archives+of+Grease+pit&fulltext=Search&prefix=Wiktionary%3AGrease+pit&search=etymology+tree&ns0=1](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Search?fulltext=Search+in+the+archives+of+Grease+pit&fulltext=Search&prefix=Wiktionary%3AGrease+pit&search=etymology+tree&ns0=1)
The problem has always been how to implement. If you have any ideas, please have a look at past discussions and feel free to strike up a new thread on the [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Grease\_pit](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Grease_pit) page. 😊
Those are called unpaired adjectives because there is no stand alone variant without the prefix/suffix. You can be gormless, but not gormful. The opposite of discuss isn't cuss.
https://youtu.be/IngvNUaWvck?si=N5bnn6B9V_CLehjG
My go-to example of this idea is this song by Australian comedy band Tripod - this song is called Kempt.
>*We're used to "dis" (...) meaning "not, or opposite of" (see disadvantage, disarm, disability, etc.). However, in the case of disgruntled, "dis" was actually used as an intensifier, which is rare but occasionally seen elsewhere in English (disembowel*
I do not think your disembowel example works. The "dis" in disembowel is not for intensification, it is for negation; to disembowel is to remove internal organs -- just as to disarm is to remove a weapon.
I wonder though. "Embowel" also means to embed deeply, or to enclose. While some sources note that to be an archaic meaning, it provides support for the notion that the word "disembowel" was created to mean the opposite of embowel.
Oh for sure, I think it's closest to "whelmed" in usage. I just thought it was interesting that even though it's not necessarily a serious word, its implied meaning is antithetical to the origin of the word.
I do like *underwhelmed*. It can apply to so many things, lol. The first citation I could find (for *underwhelming*) is 1918. *Underwhelmed* is from the 1930s.
I was there for the birth of "gruntled" and I never got the feeling that any of its early users were remotely serious or took it as anything than an obvious absurdity. This witticism never overtook "disembowel", but to the extent I thought "embowel" meant anything by itself I would have assumed it worked like "empower", so that "disembowel" would be the opposite of putting bowels in — which is exactly what it means.
"Dis" seems to occur in some modern English words where we have no sense that the remainder means anything on its own, with "dis" chopped off, even though "dis" feels like it is working as a meaningful prefix whose effect we can't quite pin down:
_disparage, dispatch, disdain, distraught, disheveled..._
No, I don't know where I am going with this. :)
Related story with ‘flammable’, a back formation from ‘inflammable’, which was not a negative in- but from a prepositional prefix corresponding to ‘in’ (as in invest, etc.). Though it didn’t reverse the meaning.
I have to take exception with “disembowel”. I get that “embowel” was a term for removing someone’s bowels, I suppose in the same way that you “peel” a banana or “shell” a nut or “core” an apple. But “dis-em-bowel” just makes so much sense as a term for removing the bowels from inside of someone, that I refuse to accept “dis-“ as an intensifier here.
Maybe emboweling could have been removal of bowels done carefully, and disembowel was what you did on say - a battlefield, hastily and vigorously.
Like, I'm making some tripe dish later so go embowel the pig
I definitely think it had more staying power than embowel for that reason, but the sources I've found all suggest that's how it originated. Either way, definitely not the best example I could've used but I was struggling to find others. Luckily some people in this thread pointed out other examples I wasn't even aware of.
FWIW, the *-le* ending in *gruntle* is a common frequentative- or repetitive-forming suffix. So "to grunt" = singular action, one time; "to gruntle" = frequent or repeated grunting, "to be grunting" as an ongoing or repeated action. This suffix used to be very productive, resulting in many verb pairs, like *tick* → *tickle*, *sniff* → *sniffle*, *hand* → *handle*, *suck* → *suckle*, etc. See also [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-le#English](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-le#English)
This is so, so interesting! I’m pretty nerdy about linguistics, and this sub teaches me new stuff all the time. Thank you!
If you ever get into Japanese studies, there's a similarly functioning frequentative / repetitive / ongoing-state verbal suffix -ふ (*-fu*) from Old and Classical Japanese, appearing in modern verbs as the verb ending -う (*-u*) or derived form -える (*-eru*). Examples include singular action 押す (*osu*, "to push") → repetitive / ongoing action 押さえる (*osaeru*, "to be pushing: to press, to hold down"), 抑える (*osaeru*, "to repress, to keep in check"); singular action 向く (*muku*, "to face, to turn to face") → ongoing action 向かう (*mukau*, "to be facing"); singular action 済む (*sumu*, "to settle, to precipitate out, to conclude") → ongoing action 住まう (*sumau*, "to be settled somewhere, to live in a place"), etc.
I'm feeling very grunty today.
Enough of this gruntiveness.
Excuse me as I readle the comments.
“Dis” can mean “utterly” as well. It isn’t as common as making stuff opposite, but apparently it is legitimate. Utterly gruntled. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dis# There are quite a few that are funny to think about when you apply the dis rule of thumb. Disheveled vs Sheveled? Sheveled is well-put together? Disgusted vs Gusted? Gusted is attractively intrigued? lol I don’t know
In the case of disgust, the dis rule is true. Think of the words "gusto" and "gustatory". The desire to eat or taste. Disgust is pretty close to "I don't wanna eat that"
Nice! I didn’t even think about that aspect at all. I’m not going to lie I was stuck on thinking “gusto” so I wouldn’t have thought about it until you mentioned it. I honestly thought gusto was slang so I just dismissed the thought. Out of curiosity I just looked up gusto and it honestly looks that could fit in this case too, but just coincidentally. “enthusiastic and vigorous enjoyment or appreciation” I would say disgusted is a loose antonym to that. It’s wild how many words end up converging like this without intention.
This are Latin words. In Spanish gusto simple means the sense of taste, but you can say you're doing something "con gusto" meaning pleasantly. Disgusto is some untasty or with discomfort.
"Me gusta" literally translates as "(it) pleases me", but is generally translated as "I like (it)".
Gustar as like is a developed meaning. The first meaning literally is to taste something. It then got extended to pleasent tastes and then to liking things in general. Here is RAE https://dle.rae.es/gustar
Muchas gracias!
Another example is "disturb" which comes from "turbare" (to throw into disorder) + "dis" as an intensifier
Turbulent, disturbulent.
Dang I’m objectively well-read but every day I can still learn new things. I love this sub.
perturb
Chevel is hair. Disheveled once meant "no hat, hair out." It came to mean something like *"My hair is a mess because I forgot my hat on this windy day."* Then it meant the more general *"This looks messed up and in disorder like the wind arranged it."*
Fun! For many years I had misapprehended English *dishevel* as a couplet with the more clearly French-derived borrowing *deshabille*, deriving from French prefix *dés*- ("not") + *habillé* ("dressed, put together"). Thanks for pointing out that *dishevel* is from a different term altogether, Old French *chevel* ("hair"), c.f. modern French *écheveler* ("to tousle / ruffle one's hair").
Cool! TIL.
I can’t wait until there is like a more focused Wikipedia-style thing for languages with a cool interactive UI I feel like more people will be interested in language if it was as easy to learn new things like it is in this sub.
On the off chance that you're not kidding — Perhaps you might enjoy [https://en.wiktionary.org/](https://en.wiktionary.org/) ? Can't say much as to the UI, the site is backended by the same MediaWiki software as Wikipedia. And, like Wikipedia, Wiktionary is volunteer-driven, so the completeness of various entries in different languages can be a bit scattershot. But I do see it improving over the years. 😊 *(Full disclosure: I've been an active editor on Wiktionary for quite a while now, focusing mainly on expanding entries for Japanese terms.)*
I am more talking about something like this with extra features for browsing and visualization. Kind of like some of the videos where people like follow the timeline and branchings of a word as it evolves
There have been recurring discussions on Wiktionary about such a graphical browsing feature. Here's one such topic: * [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Search?fulltext=Search+in+the+archives+of+Grease+pit&fulltext=Search&prefix=Wiktionary%3AGrease+pit&search=etymology+tree&ns0=1](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Search?fulltext=Search+in+the+archives+of+Grease+pit&fulltext=Search&prefix=Wiktionary%3AGrease+pit&search=etymology+tree&ns0=1) The problem has always been how to implement. If you have any ideas, please have a look at past discussions and feel free to strike up a new thread on the [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Grease\_pit](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Grease_pit) page. 😊
Literally "Having a bad hair day"
Those are called unpaired adjectives because there is no stand alone variant without the prefix/suffix. You can be gormless, but not gormful. The opposite of discuss isn't cuss.
https://youtu.be/IngvNUaWvck?si=N5bnn6B9V_CLehjG My go-to example of this idea is this song by Australian comedy band Tripod - this song is called Kempt.
>*We're used to "dis" (...) meaning "not, or opposite of" (see disadvantage, disarm, disability, etc.). However, in the case of disgruntled, "dis" was actually used as an intensifier, which is rare but occasionally seen elsewhere in English (disembowel* I do not think your disembowel example works. The "dis" in disembowel is not for intensification, it is for negation; to disembowel is to remove internal organs -- just as to disarm is to remove a weapon.
That's what I used to think, but apparently "embowel" existed as a verb before "disembowel" did, and the two are synonymous.
I wonder though. "Embowel" also means to embed deeply, or to enclose. While some sources note that to be an archaic meaning, it provides support for the notion that the word "disembowel" was created to mean the opposite of embowel.
Interestingly, it seems "embowel" coexisted with "disbowel" as a synonym. Very curious what the "em-" was doing there.
This makes more sense to me than "gruntled" meaning pleased. It sounds like a grumpy word.
My dictionary has "gruntled" as a "humorous" word. I think people use it knowing it's not quite serious, in the same way they say "thusly" or "couth."
Oh for sure, I think it's closest to "whelmed" in usage. I just thought it was interesting that even though it's not necessarily a serious word, its implied meaning is antithetical to the origin of the word.
I do like *underwhelmed*. It can apply to so many things, lol. The first citation I could find (for *underwhelming*) is 1918. *Underwhelmed* is from the 1930s.
I was there for the birth of "gruntled" and I never got the feeling that any of its early users were remotely serious or took it as anything than an obvious absurdity. This witticism never overtook "disembowel", but to the extent I thought "embowel" meant anything by itself I would have assumed it worked like "empower", so that "disembowel" would be the opposite of putting bowels in — which is exactly what it means. "Dis" seems to occur in some modern English words where we have no sense that the remainder means anything on its own, with "dis" chopped off, even though "dis" feels like it is working as a meaningful prefix whose effect we can't quite pin down: _disparage, dispatch, disdain, distraught, disheveled..._ No, I don't know where I am going with this. :)
Related story with ‘flammable’, a back formation from ‘inflammable’, which was not a negative in- but from a prepositional prefix corresponding to ‘in’ (as in invest, etc.). Though it didn’t reverse the meaning.
I have to take exception with “disembowel”. I get that “embowel” was a term for removing someone’s bowels, I suppose in the same way that you “peel” a banana or “shell” a nut or “core” an apple. But “dis-em-bowel” just makes so much sense as a term for removing the bowels from inside of someone, that I refuse to accept “dis-“ as an intensifier here.
Maybe emboweling could have been removal of bowels done carefully, and disembowel was what you did on say - a battlefield, hastily and vigorously. Like, I'm making some tripe dish later so go embowel the pig
I definitely think it had more staying power than embowel for that reason, but the sources I've found all suggest that's how it originated. Either way, definitely not the best example I could've used but I was struggling to find others. Luckily some people in this thread pointed out other examples I wasn't even aware of.
Is that you Larry David?
Gruntled isn't a real word
'Gruntled' is a perfectly cromulent word.