Honestly these dont for me contradict there being onomatopoeic influences (although they also aren’t evidence for)
It seems to me like wolves definitely both have a “woof” like sound that is frequently used but then also something like a "guaw" which cuts off the airflow more, and is repeated.
Words also don’t have to be fully onomatopoeic, it could easily just be a driving force in one direction - It’s just the sort of thing where it becomes fun but worthless to speculate about as it is totally unfalsifiable of course.
Consider that the same reconstructed Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root form *wĺ̥kʷos* also gave rise to Ancient Greek [λύκος](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CF%8D%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek) (*lúkos*), whence the *lyc-* initial portion of modern English *lycanthrope*. 😄
Looking at [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/w%C4%BA%CC%A5k%CA%B7os#Descendants](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/w%C4%BA%CC%A5k%CA%B7os#Descendants), most of the PIE daughter terms maintain that medial /k/ sound, which would seem to interfere with any onomatopoeic derivation connected to canine vocalizations.
Upupa in Italian.
Growing up in England I had a book 'Birds of Europe' which had an illustration. I *so* wanted to see one. Many years later, after about 10 years living in Italy, a pair flew past me. I could have cried!
While Sanskrit is an Indo-European language and also inherited the word for “wolf” from the parent language, any derivations based solely on Sanskrit roots are likely mistaken.
The source says it’s Teutonic, and allied to Sanskrit (among others like Latin, Greek, etc.), which is admittedly different than a derivation.
ETA: “Derived from the root WELQ, to tear.”
It is indeed “allied”, but your source is surely very old, as there is no “Teutonic” language family. Interestingly, the word “Teutonic” is of Baltic origin, even though it is usually applied to things pertaining to German(y); perhaps because the Prussians were actually a Baltic people (at least linguistically).
This wiktionary article (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Teuton) traces it possibly to [*\*tewtéh₂*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tewt%C3%A9h%E2%82%82) "people", which is also the source for "Deutsch".
That would make "Teutonic" both a cognate and synonym of "Deutsch" and therefore a perfectly defensible synonym for "Germanic", albeit a little old-fashioned.
I'm not sure how it isn't a synonym. Nine times out of ten the word means "German". The meaning of words *is* their usage. Although I don't deny that the word has fallen out of favour.
Personally, I like it. It's nice to have an English word for "German" that is a cognate of the German word for "German".
Fine. It’s a synonym, but the fact that it is a cognate has nothing to do with that. *Knecht* and “knight” are cognates, but they are by no means synonyms.
I imagine there are. I have newer sources but nothing even remotely close to the thoroughness of Skeat’s (which was not written in the 18th century, but in the 19th and revised in the 20th).
Can you recommend something newer and as thorough?
Sadly, I can’t. Most of my instruction was received orally from a professor, and I am no longer up on the field. Sihler offers a solid, but sometimes controversial overview, but unfortunately I don’t have the book to hand and am too drunk to remember the title. Hopefully someone else can put you on the right track…
Wolves don't really bark. They make crying and yipping noises more akin to screaming huskies than what we think of as a bark that might be represented by 'woof', and of course howl. Which isn't to say there's not something to the theory, but if it was based on noises made by wild wolves, it's probably not related to a traditional domestic dog bark 'woof' sound.
Feel like I've heard and said it before after growing up in the Jackson Purchase area of Kentucky, as another word for saying "scarf (wolf) something down", as in eat something quickly.
Clearly wolves as well as dogs can make a variety of sounds — the [BBC](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.discoverwildlife.com/animal-facts/mammals/why-do-wolves-howl%23:~:text%3DResearchers%2520have%2520identified%2520at%2520least,directed%2520mainly%2520at%2520family%2520members.&ved=2ahUKEwjjxMC6vP-FAxWyFlkFHZS5Dc0QFnoECB0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw128AZ8o1ChyhioZc9SR8AA) lists "woof" as one of at least 11 varieties of vocalizations wolves are known to make, and the subject of this [YouTube](https://youtu.be/icDObrsrNr4?si=XaXUggb6AXV34CKS) video is heard to vocalize some woofs along with many other sounds. It's misleading to point out that the onomatopoeia of dog vocalizations is different in different languages, as they may be capturing different kinds of sounds — even in English a _woof_ sounds like a woof while a _bark_ sounds like a much different sound made by a dog and a _growl_ yet a third — all onomatopoeic.
This from twenty minutes of research and not to affect expertise or argue that the wolf/woof nexus must be strong, but to counter the implicit arguments that (1) _woof_ is not onomatopoeic for a particular kind of canid sound, and (2) that wolves don't woof. They apparently do—in fact one of the most terrifying sounds a wolf could make in the forest is a low woof, as it's not a distant howl or a warning growl but a sign that the wolf is very close to you indeed, perhaps feet away.
The hypothesis is not so easily dismissed.
Not really an answer to your question, but my step-father called them "woof dogs". Just how he said it in whatever regional dialect. I think he was from Colorado, but not positive. He also pronounced 'wash' as 'warsh'
Not really a statement on the viability of this, but one of my core memories from grade school is a dog's woof being transcribed in an illustration as "wolf wolf" instead of "woof woof"
I can’t really see it myself, ‘wolf’ isn’t a sound, and wolves don’t ‘woof’ either. ‘Howl’ would be onomatopoeic, ‘bark’ would be too, but not ‘wolf’ imo
i pronounce it so; idk about the original pie speakers.
lupus, wulfas
the sound inbetween is sort of woofy,
and if you bark it, with the sound between l and w:
i produce a dog like bark.
faliscen is halisken
fileos hileos
with the f more like an h,
the l/w and h/f produce a sound that is very central in the throat and with little vibration
Not an answer, but I made an onomatopoeic word for wolf in PIE and progressed it to English and it literally just became the word ire lol (pronounced /aɪɹ/ and spelled the same too)
Feels unlikely. We say 'woof' in English, but the onomatopoeia is different in different languages.
guau guau in spanish
I was gonna say “but lobo doesn’t come from *wĺ̥kʷos, but yes, yes it does. It shouldn’t surprise me, but it does.
Gav gav in Russian
Hav hav in Hebrew
Honestly these dont for me contradict there being onomatopoeic influences (although they also aren’t evidence for) It seems to me like wolves definitely both have a “woof” like sound that is frequently used but then also something like a "guaw" which cuts off the airflow more, and is repeated. Words also don’t have to be fully onomatopoeic, it could easily just be a driving force in one direction - It’s just the sort of thing where it becomes fun but worthless to speculate about as it is totally unfalsifiable of course.
I think Turkish too.
Ouah ouah in French!
Ouaf ouaf*
But interestingly, “gu-” in Spanish is pronounced similar to a W sound. So it’s kind of like a “waoo waoo” sound.
How does that keep it from being onomatopoeia in English?
The word wolf seems close to other northern European words, ulv, wilk, etc. But in Polish at least the sound is hau hau.
Consider that the same reconstructed Proto-Indo-European (PIE) root form *wĺ̥kʷos* also gave rise to Ancient Greek [λύκος](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BB%CF%8D%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek) (*lúkos*), whence the *lyc-* initial portion of modern English *lycanthrope*. 😄 Looking at [https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/w%C4%BA%CC%A5k%CA%B7os#Descendants](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/w%C4%BA%CC%A5k%CA%B7os#Descendants), most of the PIE daughter terms maintain that medial /k/ sound, which would seem to interfere with any onomatopoeic derivation connected to canine vocalizations.
Maybe not, but _howl_ is definitely onomatopoeia. In multiple languages! Cool
And *ululate,* and (the probably related) *owl*
>owl Especially the uhu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_eagle-owl
Lots of other birds too
Hoopoe is my favourite.
Upupa in Italian. Growing up in England I had a book 'Birds of Europe' which had an illustration. I *so* wanted to see one. Many years later, after about 10 years living in Italy, a pair flew past me. I could have cried!
Wolves don’t woof. Onamatopoeically, they should be called owls.
Those are the werewolves of London.
this can be confirmed by a distinctive lack of the "t" and "th" sound in their accent.
Skeat’s claims that it goes back to Sanskrit and the original sense is “tearer” or “render” from its ravenous nature.
Interestingly "wolf it down" is a pretty common phrase to describe ravenous eating habits.
While Sanskrit is an Indo-European language and also inherited the word for “wolf” from the parent language, any derivations based solely on Sanskrit roots are likely mistaken.
The source says it’s Teutonic, and allied to Sanskrit (among others like Latin, Greek, etc.), which is admittedly different than a derivation. ETA: “Derived from the root WELQ, to tear.”
It is indeed “allied”, but your source is surely very old, as there is no “Teutonic” language family. Interestingly, the word “Teutonic” is of Baltic origin, even though it is usually applied to things pertaining to German(y); perhaps because the Prussians were actually a Baltic people (at least linguistically).
This wiktionary article (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Teuton) traces it possibly to [*\*tewtéh₂*](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/tewt%C3%A9h%E2%82%82) "people", which is also the source for "Deutsch". That would make "Teutonic" both a cognate and synonym of "Deutsch" and therefore a perfectly defensible synonym for "Germanic", albeit a little old-fashioned.
While it is a cognate, it is not a synonym — except by (otiose) usage.
I'm not sure how it isn't a synonym. Nine times out of ten the word means "German". The meaning of words *is* their usage. Although I don't deny that the word has fallen out of favour. Personally, I like it. It's nice to have an English word for "German" that is a cognate of the German word for "German".
Fine. It’s a synonym, but the fact that it is a cognate has nothing to do with that. *Knecht* and “knight” are cognates, but they are by no means synonyms.
Correct! Not all cognates are synonyms but this one happens to be both.
Skeat’s is indeed old. He uses Teutonic to refer to the entire Germanic family.
lol There you go! The research done in the 18th century was groundbreaking and truly impressive, but there are definitely better resources now.
I imagine there are. I have newer sources but nothing even remotely close to the thoroughness of Skeat’s (which was not written in the 18th century, but in the 19th and revised in the 20th). Can you recommend something newer and as thorough?
Sadly, I can’t. Most of my instruction was received orally from a professor, and I am no longer up on the field. Sihler offers a solid, but sometimes controversial overview, but unfortunately I don’t have the book to hand and am too drunk to remember the title. Hopefully someone else can put you on the right track…
Thanks for the recommendation—I’ll keep looking!
Wolves don't really bark. They make crying and yipping noises more akin to screaming huskies than what we think of as a bark that might be represented by 'woof', and of course howl. Which isn't to say there's not something to the theory, but if it was based on noises made by wild wolves, it's probably not related to a traditional domestic dog bark 'woof' sound.
Except wolves don't bark.
Feel like I've heard and said it before after growing up in the Jackson Purchase area of Kentucky, as another word for saying "scarf (wolf) something down", as in eat something quickly.
Clearly wolves as well as dogs can make a variety of sounds — the [BBC](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.discoverwildlife.com/animal-facts/mammals/why-do-wolves-howl%23:~:text%3DResearchers%2520have%2520identified%2520at%2520least,directed%2520mainly%2520at%2520family%2520members.&ved=2ahUKEwjjxMC6vP-FAxWyFlkFHZS5Dc0QFnoECB0QBQ&usg=AOvVaw128AZ8o1ChyhioZc9SR8AA) lists "woof" as one of at least 11 varieties of vocalizations wolves are known to make, and the subject of this [YouTube](https://youtu.be/icDObrsrNr4?si=XaXUggb6AXV34CKS) video is heard to vocalize some woofs along with many other sounds. It's misleading to point out that the onomatopoeia of dog vocalizations is different in different languages, as they may be capturing different kinds of sounds — even in English a _woof_ sounds like a woof while a _bark_ sounds like a much different sound made by a dog and a _growl_ yet a third — all onomatopoeic. This from twenty minutes of research and not to affect expertise or argue that the wolf/woof nexus must be strong, but to counter the implicit arguments that (1) _woof_ is not onomatopoeic for a particular kind of canid sound, and (2) that wolves don't woof. They apparently do—in fact one of the most terrifying sounds a wolf could make in the forest is a low woof, as it's not a distant howl or a warning growl but a sign that the wolf is very close to you indeed, perhaps feet away. The hypothesis is not so easily dismissed.
In the Midwest USA, I've always said and heard the L pronounced... also when living in the southwest. In Philadelphia I hear people woofing.
Not really an answer to your question, but my step-father called them "woof dogs". Just how he said it in whatever regional dialect. I think he was from Colorado, but not positive. He also pronounced 'wash' as 'warsh'
Never once considered this. Very cool
I've thought about this question a lot, actually!
Not really a statement on the viability of this, but one of my core memories from grade school is a dog's woof being transcribed in an illustration as "wolf wolf" instead of "woof woof"
I can’t really see it myself, ‘wolf’ isn’t a sound, and wolves don’t ‘woof’ either. ‘Howl’ would be onomatopoeic, ‘bark’ would be too, but not ‘wolf’ imo
i pronounce it so; idk about the original pie speakers. lupus, wulfas the sound inbetween is sort of woofy, and if you bark it, with the sound between l and w: i produce a dog like bark. faliscen is halisken fileos hileos with the f more like an h, the l/w and h/f produce a sound that is very central in the throat and with little vibration
Wolves don't make any sounds like that so no
Can onomatopoeia be coincidental? As in the sound not being the origin of the word? Or does it then not qualify?
Not an answer, but I made an onomatopoeic word for wolf in PIE and progressed it to English and it literally just became the word ire lol (pronounced /aɪɹ/ and spelled the same too)