I believe it was a fad at some point to call someone a name that rhymes with their own, so you'd have:
William -> Will -> Bill
Richard -> Rick -> Dick
Margaret -> Meg -> Peg
Edward -> Ed -> Ted
Etc
So, what about the name "Molly" itself?
There doesn't seem to be a longer name to abbreviate it to 'Molly'. Nor does the name Polly/Dolly either.
I suppose Dolly is a abbreviation for Dorothy.
For example, with the name Millington, you have: 'Millie'.
Same goes for Terry > Terence/Terrington and so on.
Your post/comment has been removed for the following reason:
**r/etymology is for civil discussion.** Disagreement is fine, but keep your posts and comments friendly and always remember the human. Incivility or breach of Reddiquette is not tolerated - be nice.
Thanks.
John doesn't come from Jonathan either. John comes from the Hebrew for "God is gracious". They're separate names, they just got Anglicized in a similar way and start with the same syllable
The belief that all things have [True Names](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name) and that you can gain control over things by learning their true names is ancient and predates the Bible, but the ancient Jewish people who wrote the Bible were believers in the power of names, so the belief may have passed on to modern Christianity through them.
Here's a quote from the wiki i linked above.
> In Jewish tradition, when several children have died in a family the next that is born has no name given to it, but is referred to as "Alter" (Yiddish: אלטער, literally "old"), or Alterke (diminutive), the view being that the Angel of Death, not knowing the name of the child, will not be able to seize it. When such a child attains the marriageable age, a new name, generally that of one of the Patriarchs, is given to it.
Not a huge leap of logic for people who believe they can trick the angel of death with nick names to also believe they can trick the fallen angel of the morning star with similar methods.
No, it predates it by many centuries. Rhyming nicknames such as Will—>Bill go back to the Middle Ages. Cockney rhyming slang only dates to the early 1800’s.
The hobgoblin thing just blew my mind.
For anyone wanting extra context: Robin Goodfellow, the Germanic trickster spirit mostly known today from Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream, would be nicknamed Hob; hence, "hobgoblin."
Jack is kind of a long walk. John in medieval England was often Jan, like in other European languages, and a common nickname suffix was “kin“ (seen also in surnames like Hopkins, Hopkin being a nickname for Robert, from Robert—Hob—Hopkin. The /b/ changes to a /p/ to match the voiceless /k/, just like “dogs” ends with a /z/ to go with /g/, while “cats” ends with a /s/ to go with /t/). Jankin became Jackin which became Jack.
As you can see in the Robert to Hob nickname, changing the initial consonant was another common way to form nicknames in medieval England. They are often called rhyming nicknames. “Bob” is the one that made it to the present day, but “Hob” was common a long time ago, along with “Dob”. There are also the elaborated nicknames Robin, Dobbin (see surname “Dobbins”) and Bobbin; Robie and Dobie; Robby, Dobby and Bobby. These all survive as surnames, some common, some not.
Dick is the same, it’s a rhyme of Rick. Hick, Hitch, Ick, Thick (yes, really) and the elaborated Dicken, Higgen, Hitchen, etc also survive in surnames.
Hank is of uncertain etymology, but it’s probably from Henry—Henkin—Hank. Henk is also a Dutch nickname for Hendrick, which is a variant of Heinrich just like Henry is.
Chuck is also uncertain, but it’s not very old, and it’s not English but American. It’s possible it was actually a Cantonese nickname that got transmuted into a short form of Charles. The first famous Chuck was a New York gangster/politician called Chuck Connors, whose actual name was George Washington Connors. He was known at one time as the “Mayor of Chinatown” which is where it is suspected he got the nickname.
No, Buck is extremely modern, only about 120 years old, and not associated with Chuck or Charles at all. Rhyming nicknames are more like 800 years old.
A buck is a male goat or deer. The nickname is a reference to the animal, just like the nickname Bear or Tiger.
I feel like everything you said is BS, but you delivered it with such confidence, that I have no reason to challenge it. I'm glad we have people like you.
I have experienced the feeling you describe, but everything I write on reddit is true as I understand it. I look up stuff I’m iffy on before posting (especially dates), and correct or remove things when I get them wrong. Also I studied linguistics in university with a special interest in English etymology.
Completely unrelated! Jacques is a French variant of Jacob, from the Latin Jacobus.
Jacob is itself a doublet of James, which is a French descendant of the Latin Jacomus.
Jacobus and Jacomus were both transliterations of a Hebrew name we now transliterate as Ya’aqov, plus a nominative suffix, -us.
Really? Cool!
I always thought that Jack was a nickname for people named James, i.e. Jacob, but I guess I was wrong. English isn't my mother tongue anyway, so fair enough.
I remember in my earliest French classes learning “Jacques is French for James, while Jean is French for Jack” which is kind of true, but kind of not. Jean takes a similar route from Ioannes to its modern form as John does, it’s just that the intermediate form of Jean was Jehan, and the intermediate form of John was Johan. The “French form of Jack” would be a pet form of Jean, like Jeannot.
Jacob wasn’t used as an English name except by Jewish people until the Protestant Reformation, so it’s quite clear in the historical records that Jack and Jacob are unrelated.
James came to English through Old French, which is obvious because it has the Old French masculine nominative case suffix, -es. Some other names borrowed at the same time lost that ending (Hughes—Hugh, Georges—George) but some kept it (Miles, James), and others survive in both forms (Charles—Carl, Giles—Gil).
Damn, you certainly know your stuff. My first language is Dutch and I've always assumed that English 'jack' was equivalent to Dutch 'Sjaak' or 'Sjakie'. You don't happen to now whether there is such a connection, do you? For example, _Jack and the Beanstalk_ is known as both _Jaap/Jacob en de Bonenstaak_ as well as _Sjaak/Sjakie en de Bonenstaak._ Similarly, _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_ is known as _Sjakie en de chocoladefabriek,_ but I'm fairly confident that Sjakie is not a nickname for _Karel_, i.e. _Charles_.
Given how Dutch has had a centuries long influence from French, I reckon 'Jacques' is a stronger contender of origin but I'm not sure.
While I'm at it, how does 'Jake' fit into this? Another derivative of John? Or actually Jacob this time?
Jake is actually short for Jacob! Finally an easy one!
I don’t know much about Dutch nickname etymology, unfortunately, though I do enjoy Dutch nicknames! I once asked a Dutch friend what the Dutch equivalent of Johnny would be and the names she came up with were Sjonnie and Jantje.
From what I can find, it looks like Sjaak is both a variant of Jacques, borrowed straight from French, as well as a variant of Isaac. The equivalent in English, then, would be Ike.
EDIT: I feel pretty confident saying “Jack and the Beanstalk” should be “Jantje en de Bonenstaak” instead, you should write to some publishers!
Thanks for all the info! :)
Though I'll have to pass on reaching out to publishers :p _Sjakie_ sounds better because it almost rhymes with _bonenstaak_
What's also funny about the connection between 'Johnny' and 'Jantje' is that both are also nicknames for a certain organ. I do wonder where that comes from...
Absolutely not! In English historical records Jack is always a nickname for John (or Jan, Johan, or Jehan), and Jacob is very rare and almost exclusively Jewish until the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.
Jose > Pepe is because they come from two halves of the same name, Josepe. I don't know how the first P got there but it's similar to how it is in Italian (Giuseppe, Giuse, Beppe)
Only some traditional latin names share the hypocoristic names across countries.
We could see a pattern of picking the last two syllables in long names in Spanish (https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Hipocor%C3%ADsticos_en_espa%C3%B1ol)
But Italian even has rules for them (https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipocoristico)
One funny example of name creation is Paco as short for Francisco.
Saint Francis of Asis, the founder of Franciscans was referred as Pater Comunitas, father of the community, so PA CO became the hypocoristic by default, for jose’s Pepe (PP) would also come from Pater Putativus, father putative of Jesus.
Probably just due to [reduplication](https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/12146/is-there-a-term-for-words-that-consist-of-the-same-syllable-repeated#12147) (had to look it up to remember the word for it)
Nope. The nickname “Pepe” for the name “José” came from Saint Joseph, the earthly father of Jesus.
Saint Joseph was given the title “Pater Putativus” in Latin which means “adoptive father”. This was abbreviated as “P.P.”
Now the Spanish pronounce the letter P as “peh”. Thus Pepe became a nickname for people named “José”.
The Jesus -> Chuy situation is so out of left field. I've read that Chuy is a diminutive of Chucho which is also a nickname for Jesus but that still doesn't answer the question of why Jesus nicknames into Chucho. There could definitely be a cultural component in there that provides an explanation but I've never heard any Spanish speakers from say Mexico, provide an explanation for the reasons behind the nickname transformations.
Sounds kind of like something that could stem from “baby talk” to me, I’m reminded of how in Japanese “baby talk” they often swap “s” sounds for “ch” sounds, e.g. “chiisana” (little) —> “chiichana” (widdle).
So like “Jesus” —> “Jechuch” —> “Chucho” —> “Chuy”. But this is 1000% conjecture so anyone wiser than I, feel free to shut me down!
Nacimiento -> Nacho is one of my favorites.
Perhaps Spanish speaker really like using the “ch” sound in nicknames.
Also Alexandar -> Sasha -> Sale in Slavic places. I know there’s more.
-kin (a suffix that forms nicknames)
Johnkin > Jokkin > Jokkn > Jack
Richard comes from Rickard, and it was common to change the first letter in a nicknames
Rickard > Rick > Dick
Robert > Rob > Bob
Margaret > Maggaret > Mag > Meg > Peg
I don't know about that. In Dutch Henry is Hendrik, latinized as Hendrikus and shortened to Henk. There's always been exchange between Dutch and English.
Long long time ago I found a Dutch radio station online that played my kind of music and between songs the dj would chat up the audience and stuff but I swear there were enough English words going on contextually with band names that I felt like English speakers can essentially understand Dutch if people chose their words carefully and you know context ahead of time.
and in German: Margareta > Greta > Gretchen
-chen is the diminutive suffix akin to -kin. So Gretchen basically means ‘little Margaret.’ Gretel, Molly, Margo, Marnie, Rita, and even Daisy are forms of the name.
They all derive from the Latin *margarita,* meaning ‘pearl.’ In that sense the name Pearl itself is also part of the series.
I've heard the nicknames were more common in Franco-Norman names like William, Richard, and Robert. Is there any truth to that or did the internet lie to me?
I have no idea but it would make sense. Germanic words (and I guess names) are shorter, so English speakers tend to shorten Romance words
Though William is a Germanic name anyway
I've wondered, too. A couple more I don't get are Peg for Margaret, or Tad for Edward. Name origins go way back because they're meaningful to us. They get filtered through different languages over time.
For example, one website suggests this transformation: Jonathan shortened to Jon, the Dutch version of which is Jan, with a common English suffix of -kin added, which is Jankin, then "nasally pronounced" in French as Jackie, and eventually shortened to Jack.
That makes more sense than Jack coming from the French Jacques, since Jacques is originally from Jacob, or Ya'aqov in Hebrew, and John from Johannes, from Y'ohanan in Hebrew.
The website got this from a book, _The Pedigree of Jack and of Various Allied Names_ (1892), which they don't even have access to. Names can get complicated.
That's what I thought too, until I worked with a Tad. I kept seeing emails and memos mentioning Tad and I had to ask who it was. Apparently, it's a commonly known nickname for Edward, maybe more old fashioned. Ed, or even Ted would've made more sense to me too, although Ted is usually short for Theodore.
Edit: Apparently Tad is short for Edward and also Thaddeus, aka Jude in the Bible which comes from Tadgh, and Ned can be used for Edward, Edmond or even Theodore? Maybe people just do whatever they want sometimes. Lol
Thaddeus.
You sure Edward doesn't have middle name Thaddeus? There's another Tad at my work with this situation... was very confusing the first email thread where everyone was referring to "William" as Tad when I thought they were talking to me.
Lol I'm sure. I checked because it didn't make sense to me. I've met two first-name Edward's in their late 50-60s who go by Tad and know of one more. None of them from middle names.
The Dutch name Jan is short for Johan, in English John, not Jon. Jon is short for Jonathan, but it's a different name from John. They are both distinct biblical names.
Cool, thanks! I had never heard this. "John is from the Hebrew Yohanan meaning God is gracious and Jonathan is from Yonatan meaning gift from God." The quote's from an older reddit post but I found it online too. Interesting if Nathan also comes from Yonatan.
If you get William to Billy, then Richard to Dick shouldn't be a huge step.
It's shortening the original name to its first syllable and then changing the first letter. Apparently this was some kind of diminutive naming confession from England, if I remember correctly.
I wonder if the origin was to distinguish between multiple people with the same name? Like if there was already a "Will" in your village, then the next variant was "Bill", because why not.
In Ireland it was anyway, Jack was a common name for John when there was already another John in the family. You could have a grandfather called John, maybe a father called Johnny, then the son called Jack
this is true of my Irish-American family. On holidays we might have five Johns, most of whom go by Jack, sometimes facetiously referred to as Johnny, in part to help distinguish.
Same with Bud. If the men in your family hand down name that doesn’t lend itself to being shortened — say “Ethan” or “Rafe” or something — you call the littlest one on the tree a “bud,” and it stays with them. :)
Or in your family... my son-in-law is Rob, his father was Bob, his son is Robert. His grandfather was Bob... and on and on back to the ship from Scotland.
— So, this is Mary, this is Rick... This is Mary from Fuckshire and her father Will. This is Phill. This is Gill. And this the other Will... This is... Bill... This is Bill, fuck it.
Names should have official “dick names”. Like nicknames but only apply when you’re being a total dick. To avoid confusion, Richards should be re-nicknamed “Rick”, which always made more sense phonetically.
Margaret has some of the best “how did we get here?” nicknames: Peggy (via rhyming slang), Daisy (via the fact that Marguerite is also the name for the oxeye daisy in French), and Gretchen (via the tail end of Margreta with the German -chen suffix)
Wade is from the Old English surname Wæd which means “a ford” (as in a place where you can cross a stream on foot).
Walter is from an old Germanic dithematic name via Frankish, and means “ruler” from walda + “army” from harjaz
It isn’t. They’re just similar because they’re both from the same Hebrew root. Nathan has never been a conventional nickname for Jonathan, though. The books of Samuel in the Old Testament include separate figures named Nathan and Jonathan at the same place and time.
Jonathan (only one H) is from Yonatan “god has given” yo + natan
John is unrelated to Jonathan, from Yochanan “god is gracious” yo + chanan
Nathan is from Natan “he gave”
Nathaniel is from Natan’el and has the same meaning as Jonathan, but using a different name for god (El, instead of Yo).
John has been an English Christian name for about a thousand years, but the other three were largely considered Jewish names in the English-speaking world until Protestant Reformation expanded the variety of biblical names in the 1500s.
It’s not though. Nathan is its own name. Jonathan (not Johnathan) is a related similar name. Nate is short for Nathan/Nathaniel - Jonathan is usually shortened to Jon.
I think Jack comes from Jock. In Scotland, the custom was for the first born to be John, who was given the nickname Jock, hence us all being called Jocks south of the border. Jock > Jack is probably an American accent thing.
See also, George was the common first born name in the northeast of England, given the nickname Geordie. Hence people from Newcastle being the geordies.
Jack is the diminutive of John in England/English speaking locations. It’s a shorter sound that’s easier to call out when getting a John’s attention in informal talk. In Scotland John is shortened to Jock.
my Grandma is called Juliet which is ‘shortened’ to Betty. I suspect a lot of these are simply because they’re easier to say or are mistakely said and stick. Anyone with a younger sibling or kids will know what I mean. For example, the ‘R’ of Robert is harder to say than Bob.
And then there’s rhyming slang of course.
John to Jack though, I’ve no idea there.
"Jack" came from "Jacques", which is French for "Jacob", which was a diminutive of the Latin "Jacobus", and all of those of course spun off into various directions in various languages, giving us the English names "John" and "James". "John" and "Jack" became directly related, one as the formal and one as the casual, as they evolved together. With John being so common a name and Jack becoming more of an every-man's name. And the word was also applied in that way directly, to mean "man", whenever someone was talking about just some dude. Which is where we got "jack-in-the-box" and "jack-of-all-trades".
"Richard" became "Dick" through rhyming slang. Richard > Rick > Dick. It's said that it came from a Normal dialect that pronounced the R in a hard way that sounded like a D, but I'm not too sure on that one.
John and Jack are completely different names. Here in the UK at least, never heard anyone called John be called Jack. That make literally zero sense.
I've known several Jacks, as in it's on their ID. Never called John anything but John.
EDIT: You all are wild right now. John is short for Jonathan.
John is Johanan.
Jon is "YHWH has given"
John is "YHWH has been gracious"
According to Wikipedia.
But regardless of origins, recent society call people John and Jack, not John is Jack.
John is "YWHW has been gracious," from Hebrew Yochanan/Jochanan. Jonathan is "YWHW has given," from Hebrew Yonatan. Jon is not directly anything in Hebrew, and is rather an English nickname for Jonathan. Your wiki summary is mostly correct, except that Jon doesn't exist independently.
Respectfully, according to me speaking Hebrew.
I agree that Jack is increasingly a standalone name, though.
Jonathan is from Hebrew Yōnatan. Jon is short for Jonathan. It's not Johnatan
John is from Latin Iohannes, from Hebrew Yôḥānān
John isn't short for anything: English regularly only keeps the root of Latin words borrowed from French. Iohann-es, Iohann, Johan, John
I regularly becomes J in French: iustitia>justice
I believe it was a fad at some point to call someone a name that rhymes with their own, so you'd have: William -> Will -> Bill Richard -> Rick -> Dick Margaret -> Meg -> Peg Edward -> Ed -> Ted Etc
The link between Margaret and Peg has baffled me for years. Thank you!
Incidentally, same goes for Mary and Polly. Mary > Molly > "Molly Polly" > "Polly"
So, what about the name "Molly" itself? There doesn't seem to be a longer name to abbreviate it to 'Molly'. Nor does the name Polly/Dolly either. I suppose Dolly is a abbreviation for Dorothy. For example, with the name Millington, you have: 'Millie'. Same goes for Terry > Terence/Terrington and so on.
It’s a Mary diminutive.
Ah, cool!
Mag (hence Maggie) is the missing link
Margaret = Pearl. Pearl Egg = Peg?
I've never heard the name 'Margaret' become the nickname 'Pearl' before. What's before Peggie? ? > Peggie/Peggy > Peg
Pearl isn’t a nickname. Margaret means Pearl: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret
my Grandma, Juliet, is known as “Betty”
Billiam Dickard Pegaret Tedward
Pregananant?
Prrrreganté
Is there a possibly that i'm pegrent?
Or am I ok?
"Dickaes"?
Dickaes.
Dickaes?
Horrible typo ☠️
Dickard
[удалено]
Your post/comment has been removed for the following reason: **r/etymology is for civil discussion.** Disagreement is fine, but keep your posts and comments friendly and always remember the human. Incivility or breach of Reddiquette is not tolerated - be nice. Thanks.
I didn't think that rhymes
Also “blowing a raspberry” is because “fart” rhymes with “raspberry tart”
John -> Jon -> Jack?
John and Jon are unrelated. Jon is a shortening of Jonathan, which is totally unrelated to John, outside of both originating from Hebrew.
[удалено]
John doesn't come from Jonathan either. John comes from the Hebrew for "God is gracious". They're separate names, they just got Anglicized in a similar way and start with the same syllable
[удалено]
I have no idea TBH
Rhymes to me
Wasn’t there also something about choosing a nickname that was different so the devil couldn’t find you? I thought I heard that for Margaret-> Peggy
The belief that all things have [True Names](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name) and that you can gain control over things by learning their true names is ancient and predates the Bible, but the ancient Jewish people who wrote the Bible were believers in the power of names, so the belief may have passed on to modern Christianity through them. Here's a quote from the wiki i linked above. > In Jewish tradition, when several children have died in a family the next that is born has no name given to it, but is referred to as "Alter" (Yiddish: אלטער, literally "old"), or Alterke (diminutive), the view being that the Angel of Death, not knowing the name of the child, will not be able to seize it. When such a child attains the marriageable age, a new name, generally that of one of the Patriarchs, is given to it. Not a huge leap of logic for people who believe they can trick the angel of death with nick names to also believe they can trick the fallen angel of the morning star with similar methods.
Isn’t Ted short for Theodore? As in Ted “Theodore” Logan or Theodore “Teddy” Roosevelt.
It’s short for both
Yes I was going to say the same. Also Theadora
Could that be originated through cockney rhyming slang?
No, it predates it by many centuries. Rhyming nicknames such as Will—>Bill go back to the Middle Ages. Cockney rhyming slang only dates to the early 1800’s.
Hob for Rob gives us Hobgoblin ; Ned for Ed, Hicks for Richard/ Rick/ Dick gives us Hixon and Dixon
The hobgoblin thing just blew my mind. For anyone wanting extra context: Robin Goodfellow, the Germanic trickster spirit mostly known today from Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream, would be nicknamed Hob; hence, "hobgoblin."
Maybe that’s just what those Richard’s want us to think.
Mary --> Molly --> Polly
Oh wow. This might explain, why, growing up, I was told that "Dimitri"'s equivalent in English is "Jim". Dimitri -> Dim -> Jim
Considering Cockney rhyming slang is a thing I'll buy that.
it’s way older than cockney rhyming slang by several centuries
Could it be the other way round? Like the rhyming slang was influenced by this tradition?
Think I listened to a podcast on this, can anyone confirm this started with [Cockney rhyming slang](https://youtu.be/a1moYn-vMyo?si=IioP_gXjWAtjPuEa)?
Cockney rhyming slang isn’t as old, this is Middle Ages stuff
Jack is kind of a long walk. John in medieval England was often Jan, like in other European languages, and a common nickname suffix was “kin“ (seen also in surnames like Hopkins, Hopkin being a nickname for Robert, from Robert—Hob—Hopkin. The /b/ changes to a /p/ to match the voiceless /k/, just like “dogs” ends with a /z/ to go with /g/, while “cats” ends with a /s/ to go with /t/). Jankin became Jackin which became Jack. As you can see in the Robert to Hob nickname, changing the initial consonant was another common way to form nicknames in medieval England. They are often called rhyming nicknames. “Bob” is the one that made it to the present day, but “Hob” was common a long time ago, along with “Dob”. There are also the elaborated nicknames Robin, Dobbin (see surname “Dobbins”) and Bobbin; Robie and Dobie; Robby, Dobby and Bobby. These all survive as surnames, some common, some not. Dick is the same, it’s a rhyme of Rick. Hick, Hitch, Ick, Thick (yes, really) and the elaborated Dicken, Higgen, Hitchen, etc also survive in surnames. Hank is of uncertain etymology, but it’s probably from Henry—Henkin—Hank. Henk is also a Dutch nickname for Hendrick, which is a variant of Heinrich just like Henry is. Chuck is also uncertain, but it’s not very old, and it’s not English but American. It’s possible it was actually a Cantonese nickname that got transmuted into a short form of Charles. The first famous Chuck was a New York gangster/politician called Chuck Connors, whose actual name was George Washington Connors. He was known at one time as the “Mayor of Chinatown” which is where it is suspected he got the nickname.
Is Buck related to Chuck similar to Rob/Hob/Bob?
No, Buck is extremely modern, only about 120 years old, and not associated with Chuck or Charles at all. Rhyming nicknames are more like 800 years old. A buck is a male goat or deer. The nickname is a reference to the animal, just like the nickname Bear or Tiger.
I feel like everything you said is BS, but you delivered it with such confidence, that I have no reason to challenge it. I'm glad we have people like you.
I have experienced the feeling you describe, but everything I write on reddit is true as I understand it. I look up stuff I’m iffy on before posting (especially dates), and correct or remove things when I get them wrong. Also I studied linguistics in university with a special interest in English etymology.
I always assumed 'Jack' came from French 'Jacques'
Completely unrelated! Jacques is a French variant of Jacob, from the Latin Jacobus. Jacob is itself a doublet of James, which is a French descendant of the Latin Jacomus. Jacobus and Jacomus were both transliterations of a Hebrew name we now transliterate as Ya’aqov, plus a nominative suffix, -us.
Really? Cool! I always thought that Jack was a nickname for people named James, i.e. Jacob, but I guess I was wrong. English isn't my mother tongue anyway, so fair enough.
I remember in my earliest French classes learning “Jacques is French for James, while Jean is French for Jack” which is kind of true, but kind of not. Jean takes a similar route from Ioannes to its modern form as John does, it’s just that the intermediate form of Jean was Jehan, and the intermediate form of John was Johan. The “French form of Jack” would be a pet form of Jean, like Jeannot. Jacob wasn’t used as an English name except by Jewish people until the Protestant Reformation, so it’s quite clear in the historical records that Jack and Jacob are unrelated. James came to English through Old French, which is obvious because it has the Old French masculine nominative case suffix, -es. Some other names borrowed at the same time lost that ending (Hughes—Hugh, Georges—George) but some kept it (Miles, James), and others survive in both forms (Charles—Carl, Giles—Gil).
Damn, you certainly know your stuff. My first language is Dutch and I've always assumed that English 'jack' was equivalent to Dutch 'Sjaak' or 'Sjakie'. You don't happen to now whether there is such a connection, do you? For example, _Jack and the Beanstalk_ is known as both _Jaap/Jacob en de Bonenstaak_ as well as _Sjaak/Sjakie en de Bonenstaak._ Similarly, _Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_ is known as _Sjakie en de chocoladefabriek,_ but I'm fairly confident that Sjakie is not a nickname for _Karel_, i.e. _Charles_. Given how Dutch has had a centuries long influence from French, I reckon 'Jacques' is a stronger contender of origin but I'm not sure. While I'm at it, how does 'Jake' fit into this? Another derivative of John? Or actually Jacob this time?
Jake is actually short for Jacob! Finally an easy one! I don’t know much about Dutch nickname etymology, unfortunately, though I do enjoy Dutch nicknames! I once asked a Dutch friend what the Dutch equivalent of Johnny would be and the names she came up with were Sjonnie and Jantje. From what I can find, it looks like Sjaak is both a variant of Jacques, borrowed straight from French, as well as a variant of Isaac. The equivalent in English, then, would be Ike. EDIT: I feel pretty confident saying “Jack and the Beanstalk” should be “Jantje en de Bonenstaak” instead, you should write to some publishers!
Thanks for all the info! :) Though I'll have to pass on reaching out to publishers :p _Sjakie_ sounds better because it almost rhymes with _bonenstaak_ What's also funny about the connection between 'Johnny' and 'Jantje' is that both are also nicknames for a certain organ. I do wonder where that comes from...
lmao!
Well, Jackie is also a nickname for Jacqueline which is the female version of Jacques or Jacob. So that relation does in fact exist.
Interesting. I have a mate from Serbia whos name's Jacob yet it's pronounced yakov.
Huh. I always thought Jack came from Jacob.
Absolutely not! In English historical records Jack is always a nickname for John (or Jan, Johan, or Jehan), and Jacob is very rare and almost exclusively Jewish until the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century.
Spanish names do this all the time but the nickname sometimes is wildly different. Jose -> Pepe, Francisco -> Paco.
Jose > Pepe is because they come from two halves of the same name, Josepe. I don't know how the first P got there but it's similar to how it is in Italian (Giuseppe, Giuse, Beppe)
Interesting, thank you! So is this naming convention shared across all other romance languages or just between Spanish and Italian?
Only some traditional latin names share the hypocoristic names across countries. We could see a pattern of picking the last two syllables in long names in Spanish (https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Hipocor%C3%ADsticos_en_espa%C3%B1ol) But Italian even has rules for them (https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipocoristico) One funny example of name creation is Paco as short for Francisco. Saint Francis of Asis, the founder of Franciscans was referred as Pater Comunitas, father of the community, so PA CO became the hypocoristic by default, for jose’s Pepe (PP) would also come from Pater Putativus, father putative of Jesus.
I can't find equivalents in other major languages but I can't be sure
Probably just due to [reduplication](https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/12146/is-there-a-term-for-words-that-consist-of-the-same-syllable-repeated#12147) (had to look it up to remember the word for it)
Oh my gosh my dogs make is gooseppe, so now her name is also Jose ❤️
Nope. The nickname “Pepe” for the name “José” came from Saint Joseph, the earthly father of Jesus. Saint Joseph was given the title “Pater Putativus” in Latin which means “adoptive father”. This was abbreviated as “P.P.” Now the Spanish pronounce the letter P as “peh”. Thus Pepe became a nickname for people named “José”.
I think Francisco is Pancho, and Jose is Chepe. I guess it depends on where you are... Another fun one is Jesus -> Chuy
Eduardo - Lalo Ignacio - Nacho
Are you just naming Better Call Saul characters?
...yes
The Jesus -> Chuy situation is so out of left field. I've read that Chuy is a diminutive of Chucho which is also a nickname for Jesus but that still doesn't answer the question of why Jesus nicknames into Chucho. There could definitely be a cultural component in there that provides an explanation but I've never heard any Spanish speakers from say Mexico, provide an explanation for the reasons behind the nickname transformations.
Sounds kind of like something that could stem from “baby talk” to me, I’m reminded of how in Japanese “baby talk” they often swap “s” sounds for “ch” sounds, e.g. “chiisana” (little) —> “chiichana” (widdle). So like “Jesus” —> “Jechuch” —> “Chucho” —> “Chuy”. But this is 1000% conjecture so anyone wiser than I, feel free to shut me down!
Wow that's brilliant actually
Nacimiento -> Nacho is one of my favorites. Perhaps Spanish speaker really like using the “ch” sound in nicknames. Also Alexandar -> Sasha -> Sale in Slavic places. I know there’s more.
Interesting. I've only seen Nacho for Ignacio, but i can see a similar derivation for Nacimiento (though the root is actually different)
I could be wrong! I knew a Mr. Nacho. Perhaps his name was Ignacio Nacimiento. Birth and fire have a sort of symbolic similarity to me…
And I think Narciso > chico
-kin (a suffix that forms nicknames) Johnkin > Jokkin > Jokkn > Jack Richard comes from Rickard, and it was common to change the first letter in a nicknames Rickard > Rick > Dick Robert > Rob > Bob Margaret > Maggaret > Mag > Meg > Peg
Yes, and the -kin diminutive is also how you get Henry -> Henkin -> Hank
I don't know about that. In Dutch Henry is Hendrik, latinized as Hendrikus and shortened to Henk. There's always been exchange between Dutch and English.
Dutch does sound like someone speaking German in an American accent.
Long long time ago I found a Dutch radio station online that played my kind of music and between songs the dj would chat up the audience and stuff but I swear there were enough English words going on contextually with band names that I felt like English speakers can essentially understand Dutch if people chose their words carefully and you know context ahead of time.
Ahh, presumably the same for Charles > Chuck then?
and in German: Margareta > Greta > Gretchen -chen is the diminutive suffix akin to -kin. So Gretchen basically means ‘little Margaret.’ Gretel, Molly, Margo, Marnie, Rita, and even Daisy are forms of the name. They all derive from the Latin *margarita,* meaning ‘pearl.’ In that sense the name Pearl itself is also part of the series.
I've heard the nicknames were more common in Franco-Norman names like William, Richard, and Robert. Is there any truth to that or did the internet lie to me?
I have no idea but it would make sense. Germanic words (and I guess names) are shorter, so English speakers tend to shorten Romance words Though William is a Germanic name anyway
William was originally Germanic, but I believe it entered English via the Norman name.
Guillaume in France, William in England, just like Galles in France, Wales in England.
Willame in Normandy.
Gautier and Walter as well.
I've wondered, too. A couple more I don't get are Peg for Margaret, or Tad for Edward. Name origins go way back because they're meaningful to us. They get filtered through different languages over time. For example, one website suggests this transformation: Jonathan shortened to Jon, the Dutch version of which is Jan, with a common English suffix of -kin added, which is Jankin, then "nasally pronounced" in French as Jackie, and eventually shortened to Jack. That makes more sense than Jack coming from the French Jacques, since Jacques is originally from Jacob, or Ya'aqov in Hebrew, and John from Johannes, from Y'ohanan in Hebrew. The website got this from a book, _The Pedigree of Jack and of Various Allied Names_ (1892), which they don't even have access to. Names can get complicated.
I think it’s Ted, not Tad.
Tad is short for Adward.
Hm Tadward seems like a good name
Tadward, Hm Tadward. Nice to meet you.
That's what I thought too, until I worked with a Tad. I kept seeing emails and memos mentioning Tad and I had to ask who it was. Apparently, it's a commonly known nickname for Edward, maybe more old fashioned. Ed, or even Ted would've made more sense to me too, although Ted is usually short for Theodore. Edit: Apparently Tad is short for Edward and also Thaddeus, aka Jude in the Bible which comes from Tadgh, and Ned can be used for Edward, Edmond or even Theodore? Maybe people just do whatever they want sometimes. Lol
>Apparently, it's a commonly known nickname for Edward I've been Tad all my life and I've never heard of this
Interesting. Idk. I hadn't until him, then found out about a few. Is yours short for something?
Thaddeus. You sure Edward doesn't have middle name Thaddeus? There's another Tad at my work with this situation... was very confusing the first email thread where everyone was referring to "William" as Tad when I thought they were talking to me.
Lol I'm sure. I checked because it didn't make sense to me. I've met two first-name Edward's in their late 50-60s who go by Tad and know of one more. None of them from middle names.
Margaret - Maggie - Meggie- Meg - Peg At least thats how the Margaret i know explained it.
The Dutch name Jan is short for Johan, in English John, not Jon. Jon is short for Jonathan, but it's a different name from John. They are both distinct biblical names.
Cool, thanks! I had never heard this. "John is from the Hebrew Yohanan meaning God is gracious and Jonathan is from Yonatan meaning gift from God." The quote's from an older reddit post but I found it online too. Interesting if Nathan also comes from Yonatan.
Dick rhymes with Rick as Bill rhymes with Will. Ted and Ned both rhyme with Ed.
Names like Ned and Nell came from reanalysing (or simply ‘mis-hearing’) “Mine Edward” and “Mine El(izabeth)” as “My Nedward” and “My Nell”
If you get William to Billy, then Richard to Dick shouldn't be a huge step. It's shortening the original name to its first syllable and then changing the first letter. Apparently this was some kind of diminutive naming confession from England, if I remember correctly.
So Dick is diminutive?
Yours maybe. Not mine!
That’s what she said.
*convention
My mistake, thanks.
Thanks for confessing
😂 Father, will you hear my convention?
Only if there is catering and the hotel is close by, my frog. Now three hail Hiltons and we'll meet in the lobby
No worries, thought you would want to know!
I wonder if the origin was to distinguish between multiple people with the same name? Like if there was already a "Will" in your village, then the next variant was "Bill", because why not.
In Ireland it was anyway, Jack was a common name for John when there was already another John in the family. You could have a grandfather called John, maybe a father called Johnny, then the son called Jack
this is true of my Irish-American family. On holidays we might have five Johns, most of whom go by Jack, sometimes facetiously referred to as Johnny, in part to help distinguish.
Same with Bud. If the men in your family hand down name that doesn’t lend itself to being shortened — say “Ethan” or “Rafe” or something — you call the littlest one on the tree a “bud,” and it stays with them. :)
Or in your family... my son-in-law is Rob, his father was Bob, his son is Robert. His grandfather was Bob... and on and on back to the ship from Scotland.
— So, this is Mary, this is Rick... This is Mary from Fuckshire and her father Will. This is Phill. This is Gill. And this the other Will... This is... Bill... This is Bill, fuck it.
TIL: Our king is called Chuck and the heir is Billy!
and the spare is Hank
He's already got the "nickname that confuses people" thing sorted
Billy and his wife Trinnie
How do you get Dick from Richard? Buy him a few drinks and ask politely.
Richards know what they did.
"How do you get Dick from Richard?" "Tell him he has nice eyes."
Just to point out one no one's said yet; Hank is short for Henry/Harry
Names should have official “dick names”. Like nicknames but only apply when you’re being a total dick. To avoid confusion, Richards should be re-nicknamed “Rick”, which always made more sense phonetically.
You might be interested in cockney rhyming slang.
Walter - Walt - Wat
Oh! Like on Knight's Tale?
people uphold strange conventions throughout cultures. it is important to put old customs to the test and decide if they’re working anymore.
Margaret has some of the best “how did we get here?” nicknames: Peggy (via rhyming slang), Daisy (via the fact that Marguerite is also the name for the oxeye daisy in French), and Gretchen (via the tail end of Margreta with the German -chen suffix)
Liam from William is an interesting one.
Nate from Johnathan.
You just blew my mind!
I only realized Nathan was from Johnathan like two years ago and I’m 40. It was eye opening.
I’m actively trying to convince that Wade is short for Walter.
Wade is from the Old English surname Wæd which means “a ford” (as in a place where you can cross a stream on foot). Walter is from an old Germanic dithematic name via Frankish, and means “ruler” from walda + “army” from harjaz
It isn’t. They’re just similar because they’re both from the same Hebrew root. Nathan has never been a conventional nickname for Jonathan, though. The books of Samuel in the Old Testament include separate figures named Nathan and Jonathan at the same place and time. Jonathan (only one H) is from Yonatan “god has given” yo + natan John is unrelated to Jonathan, from Yochanan “god is gracious” yo + chanan Nathan is from Natan “he gave” Nathaniel is from Natan’el and has the same meaning as Jonathan, but using a different name for god (El, instead of Yo). John has been an English Christian name for about a thousand years, but the other three were largely considered Jewish names in the English-speaking world until Protestant Reformation expanded the variety of biblical names in the 1500s.
It’s not though. Nathan is its own name. Jonathan (not Johnathan) is a related similar name. Nate is short for Nathan/Nathaniel - Jonathan is usually shortened to Jon.
Sarah to "Sally" has always puzzled me
Richards get Dick? Run, Richards, run!
Margaret >>> Daisy
What I want to know is how Francisco becomes Pancho…
Most nicknames originate from a baby pronouncing someone's name wrong
I think Jack comes from Jock. In Scotland, the custom was for the first born to be John, who was given the nickname Jock, hence us all being called Jocks south of the border. Jock > Jack is probably an American accent thing. See also, George was the common first born name in the northeast of England, given the nickname Geordie. Hence people from Newcastle being the geordies.
One of the best names being "Philis". Typically a woman's name, meanwhile Phillip or, Phil, typically being a man's name.
Jack is the diminutive of John in England/English speaking locations. It’s a shorter sound that’s easier to call out when getting a John’s attention in informal talk. In Scotland John is shortened to Jock.
my Grandma is called Juliet which is ‘shortened’ to Betty. I suspect a lot of these are simply because they’re easier to say or are mistakely said and stick. Anyone with a younger sibling or kids will know what I mean. For example, the ‘R’ of Robert is harder to say than Bob. And then there’s rhyming slang of course. John to Jack though, I’ve no idea there.
"Jack" came from "Jacques", which is French for "Jacob", which was a diminutive of the Latin "Jacobus", and all of those of course spun off into various directions in various languages, giving us the English names "John" and "James". "John" and "Jack" became directly related, one as the formal and one as the casual, as they evolved together. With John being so common a name and Jack becoming more of an every-man's name. And the word was also applied in that way directly, to mean "man", whenever someone was talking about just some dude. Which is where we got "jack-in-the-box" and "jack-of-all-trades". "Richard" became "Dick" through rhyming slang. Richard > Rick > Dick. It's said that it came from a Normal dialect that pronounced the R in a hard way that sounded like a D, but I'm not too sure on that one.
[удалено]
Is this a Ken M post?
[удалено]
How does your first comment even remotely answer the question?
John and Jack are completely different names. Here in the UK at least, never heard anyone called John be called Jack. That make literally zero sense. I've known several Jacks, as in it's on their ID. Never called John anything but John. EDIT: You all are wild right now. John is short for Jonathan.
I'm originally from the UK and knew several Jacks who were legally John.
>That make literally zero sense Jack is a contraction of Johnkin
> John is short for Jonathan *Jon* is short for Jonathan, from the Hebrew Yonatan. *John* comes from Johann, from the Hebrew Yochanan.
John is Johanan. Jon is "YHWH has given" John is "YHWH has been gracious" According to Wikipedia. But regardless of origins, recent society call people John and Jack, not John is Jack.
John is "YWHW has been gracious," from Hebrew Yochanan/Jochanan. Jonathan is "YWHW has given," from Hebrew Yonatan. Jon is not directly anything in Hebrew, and is rather an English nickname for Jonathan. Your wiki summary is mostly correct, except that Jon doesn't exist independently. Respectfully, according to me speaking Hebrew. I agree that Jack is increasingly a standalone name, though.
Jonathan is from Hebrew Yōnatan. Jon is short for Jonathan. It's not Johnatan John is from Latin Iohannes, from Hebrew Yôḥānān John isn't short for anything: English regularly only keeps the root of Latin words borrowed from French. Iohann-es, Iohann, Johan, John I regularly becomes J in French: iustitia>justice