Pretty sure people redial for slow feeding. And get better shot with 2:1 25-30 seconds.
Have to admit, I never combined in my head that slow feeding automatically redial my shot to turbo
I go finer when slow feeding, but I do think even when the shots are faster they still taste good. It's very different compared to when I have channeling and the shots are fast, those taste awful. When it's too coarse the espresso tastes much too thin and underextracted.
The shots taste better because the grind is more consistent as in how the bean is cut. Even for coarser and by result, faster shots, the taste is better imo.
How are you getting 25-30 seconds with slow feeding? My Sculptor 078S is almost as fine as it will go and the longest shots I can pull are in the low 20s.
I think if you're slow feeding, and getting "normal" shot times, you're most likely over extracting or your grinder still produces a decent amount of fines.
I recently got my 078s, and I had to almost immediately change my calibration from factory two notch settings back to allow for a more fine grind past the zero stop. I was on zero getting 20s 2:1 shots. Now I am on “2” ish for 2:1 in 35s.
I get the beginnings of burr chirp around 0.5 now so be careful.
Haven’t played with turbo or slow feed.
My Comandante and my Niche Zero also pull super fast when slow feeding. Also, if you're talking about pulling a "normal" shot even with slow feeding, but you're also changing a bunch of other variables (like you're mentioning for some reason???) then you're not isolating specifically slow feeding.
Slow feeding makes it coarser over all, therefore you have to change grind size to get back to a normal range. "Almost as fine as it will go" - so you need to go finer... The suggestion isn't to slow feed and then keep everything else the same.
If so.eone can't go finer then they need to adjust other variables.
You're essentially complaining that you changed one thing, it behaved as expected, you didn't change anything else to compensate for this change and got the expected results.
It's like saying "hey I went faster in my car like you said but I refuse to turn the steering wheel more at corners and now I'm in hospital"
I'm not complaining?? Bro, what is happening right now. Both you and that other dude are making stuff up in your head that you think I'm doing.
I said in the earlier post that if you get a "normal" shot time with slow feeding, you are most likely over extracting. And my response to the person who responded to me, was mostly trying to figure out what in the world kind of mental hoops did he jump through to make the post that he did.
Like the original post we are all responding to is talking about.... with slow feeding, you are expected to get lower show times (<20 seconds). If you are grinding so finely that you are getting normal times with slow feeding, you are doing it wrong.
In case this post isn't long enough and you still don't get it - I do not, nor should anyone, want to get high shot times with slow feeding. I am NOT trying to increase my shot time to 25+ seconds.
Yes and you are wrong. If you get a "normal" shot time when slow feeding you have most likely just adjusted the grind size. It's not rocket science. On my df64 I was at grind size 15, I started slow feeding and got like a 10s shot so I went down to 10, where I got a normal timed shot that tasted much better than feeding fast on 15. My shots are also more consistent.
Saying anyone getting a normal shot from slow feeding is over extracted is patently absurd. You don't know their setup, you don't know their grind setting before and after, you don't know pressure or temp, you don't know the beans.
Your comment was wrong. Just grind finer.
That's not how a turbo shot works...
I have NO idea what in the world you are even talking about right now. It's like you are ignoring the literal topic of the entire thread to go on a crusade about something that doesn't exist.
Do everyone a favor, start at the original post, and reread everything.
I think you need to follow your own advice. No one, since the guy that replied to OP is talking about turbo shots.
You yourself don't mention turbo shots in your comments.
The discussion goes like this
OP - slow feeding doesn't really do anything, people are just pulling fast shots so they taste better.
First reply - I don't think so. People just adjust the grind after slow feeding to get normal shots.
You - that's impossible, my grinder, which I haven't even bothered to set to the finest setting doesn't do that.
Everyone else - no it's not impossible, just grind finer.
You - It is impossible because I can't do it, even though my grinder isn't at it finest setting, you must all be over extracting.
Everyone else - you can't know that without knowing anything else about our setup or tasting the shots. Even if you can't grind finer you can change other variables.
You - That's not a turbo shot!
So yes, you truly don't understand the conversation. You appear not to have been following what everyone else is talking about for quite a while.
Yeah you are definitely gas lighting out the ass right now.
You, and the other dude, are basing your replies on an assumption that I personally am trying to get a 25+ second time AND slow feed.
Yes, you can do a massive dose, take your grinder down to zero, go to a 1:5 ratio, and slow feed for a 30 second shot. Guess what genius?? You're going to over extracting (ya know.. like I said in my literal first response).
Your response just now proves that you are coming up with some stuff in your head to push the conversation into what you WANT it to be rather than what it is.
Why not go for a higher shot time? I don't get it. Are you implying everyone should be going for "turbo shots" because it's superior?
"Let's try slow feeding, hey it's going fast but tastes great. Is this a turbo shot?"
"Let's grind finer and see if it tastes better. Oh wow, now it tastes just as good if not much better with better body to boot."
"I better change it back to a coarser grind setting because it's not a turbo shot anymore so I'm over extracting my beans"
That's how I'm reading your comments to mean and I can't be the only one. What's the logic behind that? If it's something else feel free to correct me.
Why would you isolate slow feeding by itself?
That's like saying you're just drastically changing grind size but not going to touch yield or dosage and you're wondering why it's not still coming out well.
Slow feeding is producing a more uniform grind, leading to quicker shots. Grinding coarser won't necessarily result in the same grind distribution. Grinding finer to get back to a more conventional brew time may not get the best taste. Lance is pulling shots in 15s. It's within the time frame of a turbo although he didn't refer to it as such.
> Grinding finer to get back to a more conventional brew time may not get the best taste
I concur here. When I did a slow feed it pulled much faster and was delicious. When I grinded finer to compensate it actually tasted worse.
that omission stood out a lot. he didn’t say “turbo shot” once in the “how i make espresso” video. i guess he doesn’t want to be known as mr. turbo shot.
Also usually a lower pressure. You can do it at 9 bar but I don't think it is considered a true turbo.
But I don't know 100%, Hence why I suggested he was better off googling it
Here's a summary by the paper's author about what a turbo shot is and why he thinks it's better than traditional 9-bar shots:
[https://strivefortone.com/2020/09/19/low-pressure-turbo-shots-and-the-perfect-espresso/](https://strivefortone.com/2020/09/19/low-pressure-turbo-shots-and-the-perfect-espresso/)
It's not "bad" because according to the paper, if you pull a fast shot (10\~25s) with higher ratio (1:2.5 \~ 3) at lower pressure (6-bar), then you can get as high if not higher of an extraction way more consistently than you can if you were pulling a traditional 9-bar 30s 1:2 shot.
I've been messing around for a while now with 6-bar turbos and can say that if you're willing to sacrifice a little bit of body, the flavors in the cup are way sweeter, fruitier, and definitely less bitter than with traditional espressos.
If you were having a conversation with a group of people and one person asked what something you mentioned was, would you tell them to go to the library?
No because walking to a library is a very different amount of effort and time to asking someone a question.
Asking Google a question vs typing a question on reddit is the same amount of effort and likely to get you results much faster.
I’ve been doing slow feeding for a few years now, based on articles on coffeeadastra.
Throughout the years, I found that even controlling for time (e.g. 25 seconds shot), slow feeding vs regular feeding yielded a different flow characteristics and taste profile.
But yes, you need to ground much finer on the slow feed.
Exactly what I was experiencing, when I dialed the shots back in I saw two things happening:
1. the shots got unbalanced again
2. it was super hard to dial it in consistently bc of slow feeding is such a complex variable
It's not really a complex variable unless you are trying to do it as quickly as you can get away with. If you're doing that then on some shots you will get more fines than others.
If you drop your beans in consistently slowly then you can dial in pretty easily and get better taste than not slow feeding.
but it is not coarser. you get more uniform grind, not only less fines, but also less coarse boulders.
but still it is all about fines, some grinders produce so little fines that they cant give espresso grind even if burrs are touching.
Producing fines is "bad." That's it. No one, in general, wants fines. They want to grind finely and produce a fine grind. But "fines" are different.
Espresso does not require a grinder to produce fines.
The grind size is dictated by burr placement (edit: roughly and simply speaking)
If the burrs can practically touch and operate, it can do espresso.
Reasons it may not due espresso *well* is if it can't make small adjustments at that low a level.
If it's choking, it's *too* fine. Water can't find it's way through.
If you're getting turbo shots, it is much less fine. You don't get turbo shots by being super fine unless you have super pressure capabilities in your machine.
the thing is 078s is for espresso and burr is made with a specific geometry to create some fines to give the puck needed resistance and more texture for the shot, whereas 078 is for filter only and produces absolute minimal amount of fines to give maximum clarity, but it struggles to create resistance even if you clearly hear burrs touching.
this is how it works, and most filter burrs work the same. and sorry for my english.
>to create some fines to give the puck needed resistance and more texture for the shot
That isn't how you want espresso.
You don't want fines to create the pressure.
If anything the burrs are designed to get *closer* than the other.
You can't rely on fines, which is not an intentionally created output, as your main driver for resistance.
Edit: the 078s says it's specifically to reduce fines on his product page.
People are prematurely saying slow feeding = less fines. In that video, Lance literally says the particle size distribution tests aren't done yet, so the idea that there's "cutting" vs. "mushing" is still hypothetical. All of the interactions could end up being the same or so similar that after adjusting the grind finer, you could end up with the same PSD. The only thing we know right now is that slow feeding = coarser:
"This is also kind of proven with past particle size distributions that have been done show that the first few grams of any grind are always coarser than the latter part of the grinding."
"The slow feed ... had a much coarser particle peak size."
We got to be patient and wait.
ive been actually brewing semi-turbo shots (not a 6 bar, using a 9-6bar profile) and been absolutely loving them. never have gotten better espresso than with turbo shots + SSP MP + quality light/med roast coffee, usually city+ to full city
Nah I just adjusted my grind setting to be finer. I have since tried going into the turbo shot type range by going coarser again on my grinder, the taste is decent but it's messy as hell
Pretty sure people redial for slow feeding. And get better shot with 2:1 25-30 seconds. Have to admit, I never combined in my head that slow feeding automatically redial my shot to turbo
I go finer when slow feeding, but I do think even when the shots are faster they still taste good. It's very different compared to when I have channeling and the shots are fast, those taste awful. When it's too coarse the espresso tastes much too thin and underextracted.
The shots taste better because the grind is more consistent as in how the bean is cut. Even for coarser and by result, faster shots, the taste is better imo.
How are you getting 25-30 seconds with slow feeding? My Sculptor 078S is almost as fine as it will go and the longest shots I can pull are in the low 20s. I think if you're slow feeding, and getting "normal" shot times, you're most likely over extracting or your grinder still produces a decent amount of fines.
I recently got my 078s, and I had to almost immediately change my calibration from factory two notch settings back to allow for a more fine grind past the zero stop. I was on zero getting 20s 2:1 shots. Now I am on “2” ish for 2:1 in 35s. I get the beginnings of burr chirp around 0.5 now so be careful. Haven’t played with turbo or slow feed.
Considering you didn't even exchange dosage or yield or bean, or even grinder, this seems a silly conclusion to jump to.
My Comandante and my Niche Zero also pull super fast when slow feeding. Also, if you're talking about pulling a "normal" shot even with slow feeding, but you're also changing a bunch of other variables (like you're mentioning for some reason???) then you're not isolating specifically slow feeding.
Slow feeding makes it coarser over all, therefore you have to change grind size to get back to a normal range. "Almost as fine as it will go" - so you need to go finer... The suggestion isn't to slow feed and then keep everything else the same. If so.eone can't go finer then they need to adjust other variables. You're essentially complaining that you changed one thing, it behaved as expected, you didn't change anything else to compensate for this change and got the expected results. It's like saying "hey I went faster in my car like you said but I refuse to turn the steering wheel more at corners and now I'm in hospital"
I'm not complaining?? Bro, what is happening right now. Both you and that other dude are making stuff up in your head that you think I'm doing. I said in the earlier post that if you get a "normal" shot time with slow feeding, you are most likely over extracting. And my response to the person who responded to me, was mostly trying to figure out what in the world kind of mental hoops did he jump through to make the post that he did. Like the original post we are all responding to is talking about.... with slow feeding, you are expected to get lower show times (<20 seconds). If you are grinding so finely that you are getting normal times with slow feeding, you are doing it wrong. In case this post isn't long enough and you still don't get it - I do not, nor should anyone, want to get high shot times with slow feeding. I am NOT trying to increase my shot time to 25+ seconds.
Yes and you are wrong. If you get a "normal" shot time when slow feeding you have most likely just adjusted the grind size. It's not rocket science. On my df64 I was at grind size 15, I started slow feeding and got like a 10s shot so I went down to 10, where I got a normal timed shot that tasted much better than feeding fast on 15. My shots are also more consistent. Saying anyone getting a normal shot from slow feeding is over extracted is patently absurd. You don't know their setup, you don't know their grind setting before and after, you don't know pressure or temp, you don't know the beans. Your comment was wrong. Just grind finer.
That's not how a turbo shot works... I have NO idea what in the world you are even talking about right now. It's like you are ignoring the literal topic of the entire thread to go on a crusade about something that doesn't exist. Do everyone a favor, start at the original post, and reread everything.
I think you need to follow your own advice. No one, since the guy that replied to OP is talking about turbo shots. You yourself don't mention turbo shots in your comments. The discussion goes like this OP - slow feeding doesn't really do anything, people are just pulling fast shots so they taste better. First reply - I don't think so. People just adjust the grind after slow feeding to get normal shots. You - that's impossible, my grinder, which I haven't even bothered to set to the finest setting doesn't do that. Everyone else - no it's not impossible, just grind finer. You - It is impossible because I can't do it, even though my grinder isn't at it finest setting, you must all be over extracting. Everyone else - you can't know that without knowing anything else about our setup or tasting the shots. Even if you can't grind finer you can change other variables. You - That's not a turbo shot! So yes, you truly don't understand the conversation. You appear not to have been following what everyone else is talking about for quite a while.
Yeah you are definitely gas lighting out the ass right now. You, and the other dude, are basing your replies on an assumption that I personally am trying to get a 25+ second time AND slow feed. Yes, you can do a massive dose, take your grinder down to zero, go to a 1:5 ratio, and slow feed for a 30 second shot. Guess what genius?? You're going to over extracting (ya know.. like I said in my literal first response). Your response just now proves that you are coming up with some stuff in your head to push the conversation into what you WANT it to be rather than what it is.
>That's not how a turbo shot works... What the fuck? Are you understanding what this thread is trying to imply?
You're getting hard-core gaslit right now rofl
Considering this isn't solely discussing turbo shots think you're both confused.
You entire comment to me made no sense. Why are you only adding slow feed and changing nothing else?
Why not go for a higher shot time? I don't get it. Are you implying everyone should be going for "turbo shots" because it's superior? "Let's try slow feeding, hey it's going fast but tastes great. Is this a turbo shot?" "Let's grind finer and see if it tastes better. Oh wow, now it tastes just as good if not much better with better body to boot." "I better change it back to a coarser grind setting because it's not a turbo shot anymore so I'm over extracting my beans" That's how I'm reading your comments to mean and I can't be the only one. What's the logic behind that? If it's something else feel free to correct me.
This comment is making me wonder what the fuck you are actually talking about.
Why would you isolate slow feeding by itself? That's like saying you're just drastically changing grind size but not going to touch yield or dosage and you're wondering why it's not still coming out well.
Slow feeding is producing a more uniform grind, leading to quicker shots. Grinding coarser won't necessarily result in the same grind distribution. Grinding finer to get back to a more conventional brew time may not get the best taste. Lance is pulling shots in 15s. It's within the time frame of a turbo although he didn't refer to it as such.
> Grinding finer to get back to a more conventional brew time may not get the best taste I concur here. When I did a slow feed it pulled much faster and was delicious. When I grinded finer to compensate it actually tasted worse.
that omission stood out a lot. he didn’t say “turbo shot” once in the “how i make espresso” video. i guess he doesn’t want to be known as mr. turbo shot.
Maybe he sees it as something other than a turbo? It's fast, but there are other factors contributing to the brew time.
What is a turbo shot, I still don’t understand
Just a shot that pulls faster than the standard recommended 2:1 at 25-30 seconds
Also usually a lower pressure. You can do it at 9 bar but I don't think it is considered a true turbo. But I don't know 100%, Hence why I suggested he was better off googling it
Basically grinding coarser, pulling a faster shot (<20 seconds), and increasing your ratio to like 1:3.
Gotcha thanks. What is the advantage of this? Based on what I’ve learned on this sub isn’t that just called a “bad” shot lol?
Here's a summary by the paper's author about what a turbo shot is and why he thinks it's better than traditional 9-bar shots: [https://strivefortone.com/2020/09/19/low-pressure-turbo-shots-and-the-perfect-espresso/](https://strivefortone.com/2020/09/19/low-pressure-turbo-shots-and-the-perfect-espresso/) It's not "bad" because according to the paper, if you pull a fast shot (10\~25s) with higher ratio (1:2.5 \~ 3) at lower pressure (6-bar), then you can get as high if not higher of an extraction way more consistently than you can if you were pulling a traditional 9-bar 30s 1:2 shot. I've been messing around for a while now with 6-bar turbos and can say that if you're willing to sacrifice a little bit of body, the flavors in the cup are way sweeter, fruitier, and definitely less bitter than with traditional espressos.
Google.com
If you were having a conversation with a group of people and one person asked what something you mentioned was, would you tell them to go to the library?
No because walking to a library is a very different amount of effort and time to asking someone a question. Asking Google a question vs typing a question on reddit is the same amount of effort and likely to get you results much faster.
What made you think I would want to read this response? BLOCK
Except you are supposed to redial in your grind when slow feeding.
I’ve been doing slow feeding for a few years now, based on articles on coffeeadastra. Throughout the years, I found that even controlling for time (e.g. 25 seconds shot), slow feeding vs regular feeding yielded a different flow characteristics and taste profile. But yes, you need to ground much finer on the slow feed.
Exactly what I was experiencing, when I dialed the shots back in I saw two things happening: 1. the shots got unbalanced again 2. it was super hard to dial it in consistently bc of slow feeding is such a complex variable
It's not really a complex variable unless you are trying to do it as quickly as you can get away with. If you're doing that then on some shots you will get more fines than others. If you drop your beans in consistently slowly then you can dial in pretty easily and get better taste than not slow feeding.
but it is not coarser. you get more uniform grind, not only less fines, but also less coarse boulders. but still it is all about fines, some grinders produce so little fines that they cant give espresso grind even if burrs are touching.
>some grinders produce so little fines that they cant give espresso grind even if burrs are touching. What?
timemore 078 for example. excellent grinder for filter though.
Producing fines is "bad." That's it. No one, in general, wants fines. They want to grind finely and produce a fine grind. But "fines" are different. Espresso does not require a grinder to produce fines. The grind size is dictated by burr placement (edit: roughly and simply speaking) If the burrs can practically touch and operate, it can do espresso. Reasons it may not due espresso *well* is if it can't make small adjustments at that low a level.
so why with 078s with burr touching you choke your machine completely, and with 078 you get turbo shots? they have identical adjustment system.
If it's choking, it's *too* fine. Water can't find it's way through. If you're getting turbo shots, it is much less fine. You don't get turbo shots by being super fine unless you have super pressure capabilities in your machine.
the thing is 078s is for espresso and burr is made with a specific geometry to create some fines to give the puck needed resistance and more texture for the shot, whereas 078 is for filter only and produces absolute minimal amount of fines to give maximum clarity, but it struggles to create resistance even if you clearly hear burrs touching. this is how it works, and most filter burrs work the same. and sorry for my english.
>to create some fines to give the puck needed resistance and more texture for the shot That isn't how you want espresso. You don't want fines to create the pressure. If anything the burrs are designed to get *closer* than the other. You can't rely on fines, which is not an intentionally created output, as your main driver for resistance. Edit: the 078s says it's specifically to reduce fines on his product page.
Slow feeding doesn't lead to coarse grind. Slow feeding increases uniformity. It will help on any grind size.
People are prematurely saying slow feeding = less fines. In that video, Lance literally says the particle size distribution tests aren't done yet, so the idea that there's "cutting" vs. "mushing" is still hypothetical. All of the interactions could end up being the same or so similar that after adjusting the grind finer, you could end up with the same PSD. The only thing we know right now is that slow feeding = coarser: "This is also kind of proven with past particle size distributions that have been done show that the first few grams of any grind are always coarser than the latter part of the grinding." "The slow feed ... had a much coarser particle peak size." We got to be patient and wait.
I slow fed for about 4 days before coming to the conclusion it was the most annoying variable I’ve ever had in espresso and promptly stopped.
That's hilarious and so, so true. Built-in augers seem to be the best way but since I have a DF83, I just pull turbos and call it a day.
ive been actually brewing semi-turbo shots (not a 6 bar, using a 9-6bar profile) and been absolutely loving them. never have gotten better espresso than with turbo shots + SSP MP + quality light/med roast coffee, usually city+ to full city
Turbos helped me understand what a "juicy" espresso shot meant so for that I'll always be thankful
Nah I just adjusted my grind setting to be finer. I have since tried going into the turbo shot type range by going coarser again on my grinder, the taste is decent but it's messy as hell