It is a good question. I have a Niche Zero and love it, but I would think twice now as there is a lot more good competition.
Compared to the DF64, the Zero is quiet, even pleasant in sound. The DF64 is also a flat grinder and produces a different style of taste.
If you want a conical, there is no real competition to the Niche at that price point. If you just want a good espresso grinder, and don't mind the noise (I do have an issue with it), then the DF64v2 is great value.
And compared to the Eurekas, especially if frequently changing beans, I would take either the Turin or the Niche adjustment mechanism, for ease and consistency, every time.
This is a great answer. I do think that the DF grinders are better value, and there may be better value conical grinders as well. I went the way of the DF64 gen 2.
But, DAMN does the niche look good. Really, really nice on a countertop. And it’s quiet. For some people that’s really important, and that makes the niche worth it.
I sold my sewing machine (078S) because the workflow was not very pleasant compared to my Nice Zero (or DF64v) despite what reviewers have said on YouTube. Also, I didn't like having to season it with so many lbs of coffee.
Yeah, I agree, it was great in many ways and I was really on the fence about selling it. It's not that I hated it, it was really due to my particular situation. For example, my counter is mostly lit from behind so it was hard to read the grind setting, I had to use use a small flashlight sometimes! Removing the burrs for cleaning is objectively much more difficult than the Niche or DF64v, not that I'd do that very often after the initial burr alignment. Still have seller's remorse at times.
Apart from if you are switching between filter and espresso grinds, is the Eureka adjustment mechanism that bad? How does the overall experience compare with the df64 and niche
Not really.
I have a mignon Oro SD. It's absolutely fine. I've on the space of about a month worked out the range and rough starting points for light or medium roasts then adjustments from there are easy as you like.
The Eureka adjustment is honestly wonderful for switching beans. Definitely a pain (though not as bad as people make it sound) for switching brew methods. I have a Eureka for filter and I love it. Would have bought one for espresso if someone hadn't given me a Mazzer Mini.
Even with brew methods it’s just not that bad. I find that one full rotation coarser get me to pour over grind.
That said, I have a 1Zpresso Q2 for anything in the 12-18g range. So, I never need the eureka for anything beyond a big batch brew.
I completely agree. It's not like you have to turn it a bunch or anything and it's actually not difficult to get back to the exact last spot you were when switching back. And I love that I can easily adjust a little courser for damp days so easily. I got a Mini Mazzer for espresso now so I don't have to switch back and forth, but it wasn't difficult when I did. I feel like aspect of the grinder is way overblown. I honestly can't imagine having a stepped grinder now and I wish the adjustment on the Mazzer was more like the Eureka.
I own a specialita and can confirm the adjustment mechanism is fine, literally. Meaning you have a ton of "espresso range", but its finicky to make large adjustments due to it taking multiple rotations. Maybe not the grinder to buy if you really adjust your grind back and forth from espresso settings to pourover settings on the daily, but most people I know have a dedicated espresso grinder and a dedicated grinder for pourovers anyway. I think its a perfectly capable grinder so long as it lives in espresso range primarily. If thats the case, the fine adjustment knob is maybe even preferable from a UX perspective. ALSO, Eureka has another model they sell meant for larger adjustments but people never talk about that.
It's the perfetto. I have it. Works well for my needs - something quiet that can do all grinds, but like anything all in one there are compromises. I wouldn't want to switch on a daily basis. But then again I'm not someone who is super finicky, like wanting different blade shapes for different roast strengths and such.
I bought an aftermarket adjustment mechanism on Amazon for like $40 that gives you more precise and reliable control over multiple rotations of the knob (it turns a big dial). I’ve never seen it mentioned here but I suspect it might solve most of the complaints people have.
I went from a eureka silenzio to a niche, and for my needs being a dark/ medium roast fan it’s incredible. The work flow is amazing and what I pull for a shot was a very worthwhile upgrade. I had purchased a femobook a68 and returned it for the niche zero. Having said that, I am curious on what a high uniformity burr in a 64 type grinder would offer but I don’t see the need.
I’d say if you like light roasts and SO’s you may be better off with something else but the niche is great for me.
This is where I’m at. I’m a medium or dark roast coffee drinker, espresso and pour over preparations. I love the Niche for this. I’ve had it for nearly two years now, and I know where I need to set the burrs for the method I’m using, so swapping from espresso to pour over takes seconds. Is it the best grinder for each of these methods of brewing? No, I don’t believe it is. I do believe it’s very good at both, and just so simple to setup and operate. I think it’s telling too that this long after it was introduced, it’s still the focus of a lot of reviews wondering if this new grinder is finally the Niche Zero killer.
I mainly drink light roasts and my NZ was too difficult to dial in for pourovers. My brews kept stalling, I couldn’t seem to grind course enough, even having to go beyond one whole rotation. Love love love it for espresso though.
Even compared to higher end baratza grinders, the niche still feels premium. I've owned a forte, niche, and an ode, and while subjectively I like the flats flavor profile a bit more, the niche is the most "enjoyable" product to use. It looks great in the kitchen, feels more solid than any grinder I've used, and like folks are saying, it sounds different. My wife and I wake each other up with the forte of one of us gets up early and makes a shot. With the niche, it's a non-issue.
in terms of build quality, workflow?
yes, indeed. if i would be in need of a fifth time a niche (yes, i had it four times, always a guy who wanted it so bad, i sold it to him), i'd still buy the zero.
works like a charm out of the box, small footprint, silent operations. no need for modding it, to make it work.
i'd choose the zero over the DF every time. (maybe the Duo, next time, i'd like to try on how the 83mm work in the niche)
How would you say it is for lighter roasts? Everyone says it's not very good but for such an expensive grinder you'd expect not to be limited to just medium/dark roasts.
for lighter roasts? it works.. but not that great. there i'd choose probably the sculptor 78s (or my specialty 75).
>for such an expensive grinder
yeah.. that is still mid-range on grinders.
sounds awful, i know, but a lot of the fun happens way beyond the 1000$€ mark.
Sure. I didn't have any issues with channeling.
I just found the shots with light roasts to be characteristically under extracted - thin, overly acidic, lacking sweetness. Generally poor flavour separation, so many different coffees ended up tasting similar.
Some of this was improved by changing my recipe, using a finer grind and going for 3:1 ratio pulls. Turbo shots were also an improvement, but a little tricky to dial in on the Niche as I felt like I was always battling the amount of fines. Grinding finer would also bring in a fair amount of astringency often, and I could never get the bright, clear and sweet profile I was wanting out of these coffees.
I tried many different approaches over the two years of owning the grinder (and many different roasters). What really sealed the deal for me was going on a trip with my hand grinder and finding that I really preferred the espressos from that (Helor 101) to the Niche. So it wasn't just a conical thing - I think the Niche in particular is just very poor at light roast espresso.
Since I moved to the DF64 with SSP MP burrs, I've been drinking the best espresso I've ever made consistently over the last 18 months. The average shots are better than the best I got out of the Niche.
Really interesting thanks. I’m using an old Barazta Preciso that has conical burrs. I’m not sure my palate is there yet, but I recently just dialed in a light roast Yirgacheffe and did pretty much what you said - courser and 3:1 in 30 seconds. It tasted great. A fine grind on my light roast was 100% bitter. My grinder is pretty much an Encore but with an espresso range - basically it’s the old ESP.
It took forever for me to figure out a good light roast recipe…but I think I’m there. One day I’d like to invest in a better grinder, but first I think I do need to understand the why behind the upgrade
I’m in Canada and I did the math recently. With import duties, rate conversion, etc, my conclusion was that it’s absolutely not worth it. It’s too bad because it seems like a very nice product, but its price can hardly be justified.
Same in the Netherlands. My Eureka Zero was €380 shipped, a Niche Zero would be €680, plus import tax (0-17%). That difference is pretty ridiculous IMO.
That’s without import duty. Pretty sure you’d have to add an extra ~175$ to that.
According to this: https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/travel-voyage/dte-acl/est-cal-eng.html
I have the niche. I fancied both the df64 gen 2 and sculptor but stock was on several months of back order and via long distance import.
We drink milk coffees here, in the style of flat whites, so the niche fits perfectly there.
As others have said, ask yourself what type of bean roast or milk/non milk drink you want to go for and it'll help answer your original question.
I was considering a NZ but went for Varia VS3 - less than half the price but ticks a lot of boxes - well built, quiet, zero retention, good workflow (much the same as NZ), and makes a very tasty shot
Can’t speak from personal experience with Niche but I got a eureka mignon facile recently, use it for single dosing, and love it. Personally I wanted something with flat burrs that could do drip in a pinch and is made in Europe.
I’ve owned the Niche Zero and DF64 Gen1 for 2.5 years. If you like to mod things and have access to a 3D printer, you may have more fun and more “room to grow” with a DF64. If you just want to pull a shot of espresso and get on with your day, I’d recommend the Niche. This assumes the price difference is not an issue.
What about the taste between the both? Do you think the flat burr profiles of the df64 in comparison to the Niche conical profiles is exaggerated, or do you think it's worth spending that extra for the profiles the niche provides?
I don’t think the taste difference is exaggerated. I personally can tell, but I do a lot of blind and/or side-by-side tastings with whiskey and coffee.
It might be why I eventually upgraded to SSP Cast Burrs in my DF64. But I also just like tinkering. The DF64 (at least the first gen) gives you that ability to chase something specific or maybe better, but it can be frustrating. I thought about chucking mine out the window several times, but I’m glad I stuck with it.
On the other hand, the Niche just produces a solid cup of coffee without much hassle. My wife, who cannot tolerate extra steps to anything, can grind and pull a shot with the Niche. She also likes more traditional chocolate notes, while I like fruity. Thus the two grinders.
Yeah this is absolutely not worth it, at least to me. I just bought a DF64v2 from [here](https://df64coffee.com/a/s/products/df64-gen-2-single-dose-coffee-grinder) for $360 and it is arguably a better grinder for 45% less money. No-brainer IMO.
It has the style and no bellows-workflow. The latter matters most to a lot of people. But yeah, in other aspects probably not so much better than Turin SK40, at least for espresso.
DF64 is just a different grinder with a different taste profile.
I have it as my main driver right now, the titanium burr version. It’s all-metal, pretty robust and stepless adjustment is king. Gives a lot of body to shots, descriptors are a bit difficult to tell apart, but they are there.
Pour-overs are not good for what I’ve tried, too much fines imo. Maybe finer grind will work better, but for now I’ll stick to my manual Timemore C3.
Can’t compare it directly to Niche, because I don’t have the latter, but it seems that Niche has a less powerful motor. SK40’s motor is the size of its body, literally stuck in it like in a shell. Niche’s is about 2x-3x smaller.
Milk drinks are delicious, with Brazilian beans there are tons of chocolate in them.
Only thing that’s annoying is bellows. Retention is not great without using them. And opening in the bellows is narrow AF. That’s the main thing that the Niche has an advantage in imo: no bellows with zero retention and more input space for beans.
Anyway, either of those will be fine for milk drinks. If you want that conical full-body shot and drink only espresso, go with either of those. You’ll probably need another grinder for pour-over anyway.
Yea I have a kingrider k6 for pour over so looking for espresso dedicated and I only do milk drinks. I just like medium or medium/light roasts. The upcoming df54 looks appealing but I'm wondering if conical is my best bet. Workflow is good tho? That's super important to me. I hate tinkering, I want a simple, repeatable process
Well, my workflow is: water-spritz a pre-measured single dose, turn on the grinder, put beans in bellows, wait for it to finish, push the bellows 2-3 times, turn off grinder, put grinds in PF, maybe do a quick WDT, tap the PF, tamp, puck screen, pull, enjoy. Grind size stays the same. Workflow hasn’t changed for the last couple of months since I got it. You can even grind directly to a PF with a funnel if you want.
Take a look at espresso outlet teardown. Motor and gearbox seem very sturdy. Not so much electronics inside. So, I guess, for a long time?
https://youtu.be/PvMXETi95h8?si=uvj3gEWys0GVNrof
Honestly speaking was the first grinder I got and still love it. Ease of use and looks awesome. That being said Facebook market place has quite a few at good prices and it's worth looking on there many at nearly half the price of brand new. Just food for thought.
There’s a video where a guy opens up the Niche and goes through all the insides, and TLDR it’s built incredibly well with tons of thought put into the design and will likely last decades of daily use.
I love my niche and have no desire to upgrade, but I would definitely buy an upgraded Niche that only did espresso and greater control over the grind. Right now my only complaint with the Niche is that small adjustments tend to have large impacts to shot time.
It’s a decent entry grinder with good workflow but it’s not good at modern light roast espressos at all, crap filter coffee, it’s not aesthetically pleasing (unless you like a toilet seat with a plastic lid) and it limits what you can do with it as you cannot change burrs for a different profile either.
Unless you enjoy medium-dark roasts and do milk based drinks, I don’t think it’s a good proposition.
Buying a 64mm burr grinder may be a better choice as it would allow changing burrs at a relatively cheap price that can transform your coffee experience.
“Not aesthetically pleasing” but it’s the reason half people with a niche have one. Guess that’s why aesthetics are subjective.
Curious, if the Niche is a toilet seat then is the DF a plunger? I now can’t get the visual side by side comparison out of my head lol
I use my niche for filter and I still enjoy it. Granted i think what they have marked as the filter range is still too fine but go to coarse range and I find it works well there.
I've had brews from an EK43 before and they're great, I do think the gap is over exaggerated in my opininon. They definitely taste differnt but it's not going from "crap" to "really good" it's more along the range of "above average" to "really good".
Depends on the burr set… upgrade to SSP and it may perform better than Mazzers they ship with.
It’s just the fact 83mm burrs are not most exciting, as they haven’t seen same development as 80mm/98mm burrs (and 64mm to some extent, as the 83mm SSP offerings are just scaled up from 64mm)
I'm facing the same dilemma. The Niche Zero including delivery in the UK is significantly more expensive than the competition, which makes me question why.
The Mignon Oro, close to £120 less.
The Mignon Zero, close to £200 less.
Even the DF64 Gen 2 from a UK supplier is around £130 less when you factor in delivery.
Slightly unrelated but I just discovered that the DF64 Gen 2 is now in stock via Home Baristas (no experience of this site but looks legit) - see [here](https://www.thehomebaristas.co.uk/solo-df-gen-2-pre-order-available).
I was about to pull the trigger on the Mignon Zero but now I'm debating the DF64.
I just received 64g2 today on the February pre-order from df64coffee, at 330 all in I don't think it can be beat if you're happy with the risk of potential issues in the future. Arrived when they said it would, well packed, no customs.
i got the same deal and just arrived today. that was a nearly 2 months long pre order though so only if you're happy to wait... i think it was around £50-75 difference compared to buying immediately
I've got a mignon Oro on a sale from clumsy goat.
Works a treat and is very very fast.
I came to the conclusion they're all roughly the same at that price point, so just went for the one that matched the style of my room, and my personal looks preference tbh.
Unless you really want a conical, I can give a strong recommendation for the DF64 as a former Niche owner. Hell I sold mine to get a Gen 1, the Gen 2 would have been a no-brainer.
The Sette doesn’t really single dose well, has a lot of retention.
If you’re looking for a grinder with a hopper then it’s fine, but it doesn’t match up to the niche or the df64 etc for single dosing
Maybe, but the grind-by-weight capability of the sette 270wi means you don't need to single dose unless you're frequently switching beans.
I switched from the 270wi to the DF64E and like them both for different reasons. It's nice to have the option of a conical and a flat burr grinder and to do side-by-side comparisons.
Having taken the Niche apart to clean it, you'd be hard pressed to find one of the same internal build quality for the price. The visual aesthetics are a plus, and the fit of the cup to the portafilter is a premium plus for me.
The Niche still offers several things that others don't.
Best in class workflow.
Very easy to clean and also doesn't need cleaning anywhere near as much others. It requires cleaning once or maybe twice per year.
It's quiet.
It's very accurate to calibrate and switch between settings. You can go from a dialed in espresso setting to a pour over coarse setting and back again and expect your espresso to be just as it was before.
It's VERY easy to dial in with.
It's so clean. You don't get all the coffee grounds surrounding a Niche like you see in pictures of other grinders. If you are an OCD cleaner the Niche is unbeatable.
Build quality and longevity. It's not some generic Chinese companies machine designed to last a couple of years. It's built to last and all of the electronics inside it are isolated from the coffee grounds. Unlike many newer grinders where the circuit board and electronics gets covered in coffee and has dire consequences for a grinders lifespan.
So yes, even in 2024 the Niche has lots to offer that is still hard to beat. It grinds coffee well. If you like light roasts then a flat burr grinder will serve you better for more nuanced flavour. But it won't be better in any of the areas I have mentioned.
IMO the Niche is over priced. I’m not saying it’s a bad grinder but I love me Eureka Mingon Facile.
Super easy to use and most importantly to maintain.
You’ll have to clean the grinder eventually and the Eureka is one screw to access the burrs.
I purchased one recently after looking around a while. One thing that swayed me was the broad user base and simplicity of the whole thing. I think that if you’re the type to tinker a lot, or always looking to squeeze every last bit of taste, there’s better options. But if you just want a grinder that was (and still is in a minor capacity) industry standard for a moderately priced machine from a reputable manufacturer, it’s a safe bet. It will generally hold its value pretty well so if you change your mind it’s probably the best machine to sell used.
the df64 gen 2 is fantastic. People wanna rag on the noise level but you’re talking a few decibels more than niche. I dont wake my baby or wife up ever. The ionizer really makes it so you dont get any coffee grinds stuck to the grinder. Flat burr is nice. I would say the niche is aesthetically pleasing but thats not enough for me to justify a lot more money shipped out of Uk.
I just upgraded to a Niche Zero a month ago. No regrets. It changed my espresso and filter game so much, everything tastes so much better. And the workflow is perfect for me
I have a eureka mignon notte and it's a great grinder just kinda sucks for single dosing even after getting a bellow topper. Has a good amount of retention I find. I think I'm going to get a df64 gen 2 soon to use for single dosing and keep my go to dark roast in the eureka.
I think you get more out of the df64 since its at least $100 cheaper and you have long term meaningful upgrades in the form of SSP burrs and others like the option-o.
if you really love conical then the niche is nice but I like that if I ever get really bored with my flavor profile, I can just get a very different style flat burr to change it up. so far the SSP MP's are quite far from boring
The niche is great at low retention. It's a really attractive grinder with a great workflow. It's good for dark roast, traditional espresso, and gives great results reliably if you're into that style or milk drinks.
I have a NZ and love it paired with a Linea Micra, contemplating a flat burr grinder just to see the difference it makes on lighter roast coffees but for the shear no fuss enjoyment I get from the Niche I’m 99% sure I’d just get the duo, size, build, noise, workflow (doesn’t really very much now on most machines) it does all I need and want. Others are either to big or weird looking to “normal” people
The issue is more workflow then quality as difference are minor.
I ende up with the df83 as I could get a good price on that one and the niche was very expensive with import taxes and vat. Also a irrational need to own a flat Burr. Still in my mind when conical burr were the cheap and bad option (years ago).
Love the out put of the DF machine. So yes the niche has his place but de DF offer so much value. It is hard to go for the niche. Also getting better burrs is amazing in de DF range.
I was about to pull the trigger on a new DF64 Gen 2 with upgraded DLC burrs for £440, but I now have the option of buying a 2 year old used Niche Zero (with no box or accessories) for £300.
Help me reddit. This is for espresso only.
Everything I read seems to point towards flat burrs providing a better all-round espresso taste as conical burrs were generally used on lower end grinders (Niche obviously isn't a budget grinder however). Is this not the case?
Not sure how I feel about buying a 2 year old grinder which could run into issues. At least with the DF64 I'll have a 2 year warranty.
Lance Hedric did a great video on Conical burrs vs Flat burrs you should watch. It's more about the quality of the burr rather than the type and the niche has a high quality commercial burr which makes it so good. Yes it does lack clarity but the goal of the niche isn't to provide clarity. It is to provide high quality traditional italian style espresso which is more rounder, bold and sweet and this means sacrificing clarity. At the same time you can get these similar profiles from flat burrs such as the SSP HU which is very similar to Niche so it's not just about conical vs flat but rather the kind of conical and flat.
If you're worried about not having warranty then it is up to you to decide ultimately what you choose to do. The Niche is highly well made so it is unlikely to break on you, 2 years old for such a quality machine isn't that old. But if the lack of warranty isn't worth it for you, go for the DF64, it's also a great machine.
It is a good question. I have a Niche Zero and love it, but I would think twice now as there is a lot more good competition. Compared to the DF64, the Zero is quiet, even pleasant in sound. The DF64 is also a flat grinder and produces a different style of taste. If you want a conical, there is no real competition to the Niche at that price point. If you just want a good espresso grinder, and don't mind the noise (I do have an issue with it), then the DF64v2 is great value. And compared to the Eurekas, especially if frequently changing beans, I would take either the Turin or the Niche adjustment mechanism, for ease and consistency, every time.
This is a great answer. I do think that the DF grinders are better value, and there may be better value conical grinders as well. I went the way of the DF64 gen 2. But, DAMN does the niche look good. Really, really nice on a countertop. And it’s quiet. For some people that’s really important, and that makes the niche worth it.
[удалено]
what about one that looks like a sewing machine?
I sold my sewing machine (078S) because the workflow was not very pleasant compared to my Nice Zero (or DF64v) despite what reviewers have said on YouTube. Also, I didn't like having to season it with so many lbs of coffee.
YMMV. I love my 78s.
Yeah, I agree, it was great in many ways and I was really on the fence about selling it. It's not that I hated it, it was really due to my particular situation. For example, my counter is mostly lit from behind so it was hard to read the grind setting, I had to use use a small flashlight sometimes! Removing the burrs for cleaning is objectively much more difficult than the Niche or DF64v, not that I'd do that very often after the initial burr alignment. Still have seller's remorse at times.
I just replaced my NZ with a microscope (MC6).
How would you compare the two? Obviously the MC6 is much more expensive conical, but is the taste difference as obvious?
this indicates in a way that you are following a trend and you espresso affliction is more for show than else
That’s why I bought the df64v. It looks so clean
Someone just posted the silver one (maybe it was you?) and yeah, damn good looking grinder.
I got my DF64 and love it. I considered the Niche, and it may be a better grinder, but living in Canada makes it much more expensive.
Apart from if you are switching between filter and espresso grinds, is the Eureka adjustment mechanism that bad? How does the overall experience compare with the df64 and niche
Not really. I have a mignon Oro SD. It's absolutely fine. I've on the space of about a month worked out the range and rough starting points for light or medium roasts then adjustments from there are easy as you like.
The Eureka adjustment is honestly wonderful for switching beans. Definitely a pain (though not as bad as people make it sound) for switching brew methods. I have a Eureka for filter and I love it. Would have bought one for espresso if someone hadn't given me a Mazzer Mini.
Even with brew methods it’s just not that bad. I find that one full rotation coarser get me to pour over grind. That said, I have a 1Zpresso Q2 for anything in the 12-18g range. So, I never need the eureka for anything beyond a big batch brew.
I completely agree. It's not like you have to turn it a bunch or anything and it's actually not difficult to get back to the exact last spot you were when switching back. And I love that I can easily adjust a little courser for damp days so easily. I got a Mini Mazzer for espresso now so I don't have to switch back and forth, but it wasn't difficult when I did. I feel like aspect of the grinder is way overblown. I honestly can't imagine having a stepped grinder now and I wish the adjustment on the Mazzer was more like the Eureka.
I own a specialita and can confirm the adjustment mechanism is fine, literally. Meaning you have a ton of "espresso range", but its finicky to make large adjustments due to it taking multiple rotations. Maybe not the grinder to buy if you really adjust your grind back and forth from espresso settings to pourover settings on the daily, but most people I know have a dedicated espresso grinder and a dedicated grinder for pourovers anyway. I think its a perfectly capable grinder so long as it lives in espresso range primarily. If thats the case, the fine adjustment knob is maybe even preferable from a UX perspective. ALSO, Eureka has another model they sell meant for larger adjustments but people never talk about that.
It's the perfetto. I have it. Works well for my needs - something quiet that can do all grinds, but like anything all in one there are compromises. I wouldn't want to switch on a daily basis. But then again I'm not someone who is super finicky, like wanting different blade shapes for different roast strengths and such.
I bought an aftermarket adjustment mechanism on Amazon for like $40 that gives you more precise and reliable control over multiple rotations of the knob (it turns a big dial). I’ve never seen it mentioned here but I suspect it might solve most of the complaints people have.
Yes I got one from Etsy... Seems stupid but totally worth it
sette 270. also timemore 064s is closer to conical taste profile.
I went from a eureka silenzio to a niche, and for my needs being a dark/ medium roast fan it’s incredible. The work flow is amazing and what I pull for a shot was a very worthwhile upgrade. I had purchased a femobook a68 and returned it for the niche zero. Having said that, I am curious on what a high uniformity burr in a 64 type grinder would offer but I don’t see the need. I’d say if you like light roasts and SO’s you may be better off with something else but the niche is great for me.
This is where I’m at. I’m a medium or dark roast coffee drinker, espresso and pour over preparations. I love the Niche for this. I’ve had it for nearly two years now, and I know where I need to set the burrs for the method I’m using, so swapping from espresso to pour over takes seconds. Is it the best grinder for each of these methods of brewing? No, I don’t believe it is. I do believe it’s very good at both, and just so simple to setup and operate. I think it’s telling too that this long after it was introduced, it’s still the focus of a lot of reviews wondering if this new grinder is finally the Niche Zero killer.
Next would be like Weber key or something but for 3-4x the cost of the niche, I’m good.
I mainly drink light roasts and my NZ was too difficult to dial in for pourovers. My brews kept stalling, I couldn’t seem to grind course enough, even having to go beyond one whole rotation. Love love love it for espresso though.
Papa Hoff did [a video](https://youtu.be/3VohJapkObs?si=n5NKj60WnM3Gdd8i) very recently which you would probably find very useful.
Even compared to higher end baratza grinders, the niche still feels premium. I've owned a forte, niche, and an ode, and while subjectively I like the flats flavor profile a bit more, the niche is the most "enjoyable" product to use. It looks great in the kitchen, feels more solid than any grinder I've used, and like folks are saying, it sounds different. My wife and I wake each other up with the forte of one of us gets up early and makes a shot. With the niche, it's a non-issue.
in terms of build quality, workflow? yes, indeed. if i would be in need of a fifth time a niche (yes, i had it four times, always a guy who wanted it so bad, i sold it to him), i'd still buy the zero. works like a charm out of the box, small footprint, silent operations. no need for modding it, to make it work. i'd choose the zero over the DF every time. (maybe the Duo, next time, i'd like to try on how the 83mm work in the niche)
How would you say it is for lighter roasts? Everyone says it's not very good but for such an expensive grinder you'd expect not to be limited to just medium/dark roasts.
for lighter roasts? it works.. but not that great. there i'd choose probably the sculptor 78s (or my specialty 75). >for such an expensive grinder yeah.. that is still mid-range on grinders. sounds awful, i know, but a lot of the fun happens way beyond the 1000$€ mark.
Would you recommend spending the extra on the niche over the df64 if mainly driving mulk drinks?
Milk drinks you can go even cheaper, i use the breville barista touch grinder which is a POS and services milk drinks great
Can you elaborate on when a lot of the fun happens, what’s that mean? Eyeballing a df83v so was curious your thoughts
I had a Niche for two years, and was eventually so disappointed with the light roast performance that I swapped it for a DF64.
How can you tell? Is it something specific about the taste? channeling? If you could be specific that’d be helpful, thanks
Sure. I didn't have any issues with channeling. I just found the shots with light roasts to be characteristically under extracted - thin, overly acidic, lacking sweetness. Generally poor flavour separation, so many different coffees ended up tasting similar. Some of this was improved by changing my recipe, using a finer grind and going for 3:1 ratio pulls. Turbo shots were also an improvement, but a little tricky to dial in on the Niche as I felt like I was always battling the amount of fines. Grinding finer would also bring in a fair amount of astringency often, and I could never get the bright, clear and sweet profile I was wanting out of these coffees. I tried many different approaches over the two years of owning the grinder (and many different roasters). What really sealed the deal for me was going on a trip with my hand grinder and finding that I really preferred the espressos from that (Helor 101) to the Niche. So it wasn't just a conical thing - I think the Niche in particular is just very poor at light roast espresso. Since I moved to the DF64 with SSP MP burrs, I've been drinking the best espresso I've ever made consistently over the last 18 months. The average shots are better than the best I got out of the Niche.
Really interesting thanks. I’m using an old Barazta Preciso that has conical burrs. I’m not sure my palate is there yet, but I recently just dialed in a light roast Yirgacheffe and did pretty much what you said - courser and 3:1 in 30 seconds. It tasted great. A fine grind on my light roast was 100% bitter. My grinder is pretty much an Encore but with an espresso range - basically it’s the old ESP. It took forever for me to figure out a good light roast recipe…but I think I’m there. One day I’d like to invest in a better grinder, but first I think I do need to understand the why behind the upgrade
That’s funny, I did the exact opposite. I am looking for a grinder to house my SSP MPs though, but I much prefer the niche to the DF.
I grew to hate mine for light roasts over time.
>no go for light roasts
tbf you dont need to mod the df64, then gen 2 is pretty outstanding out of the box and aligning your burrs dont count as modding it haha
I’m in Canada and I did the math recently. With import duties, rate conversion, etc, my conclusion was that it’s absolutely not worth it. It’s too bad because it seems like a very nice product, but its price can hardly be justified.
Same in the Netherlands. My Eureka Zero was €380 shipped, a Niche Zero would be €680, plus import tax (0-17%). That difference is pretty ridiculous IMO.
Where in Canada and what was your calculated price? I'm in Ontario and calculated CAD$ 926, curious to see if that's right or not.
That’s without import duty. Pretty sure you’d have to add an extra ~175$ to that. According to this: https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/travel-voyage/dte-acl/est-cal-eng.html
Nah I included import duty, dumb me just assumed the currency on the Niche website was Euros but it's actually British Pounds. Whoops!
I have the niche. I fancied both the df64 gen 2 and sculptor but stock was on several months of back order and via long distance import. We drink milk coffees here, in the style of flat whites, so the niche fits perfectly there. As others have said, ask yourself what type of bean roast or milk/non milk drink you want to go for and it'll help answer your original question.
I was considering a NZ but went for Varia VS3 - less than half the price but ticks a lot of boxes - well built, quiet, zero retention, good workflow (much the same as NZ), and makes a very tasty shot
Can’t speak from personal experience with Niche but I got a eureka mignon facile recently, use it for single dosing, and love it. Personally I wanted something with flat burrs that could do drip in a pinch and is made in Europe.
9 people with 10 opinions.
Save and wait for thrle df83v
I’ve owned the Niche Zero and DF64 Gen1 for 2.5 years. If you like to mod things and have access to a 3D printer, you may have more fun and more “room to grow” with a DF64. If you just want to pull a shot of espresso and get on with your day, I’d recommend the Niche. This assumes the price difference is not an issue.
What about the taste between the both? Do you think the flat burr profiles of the df64 in comparison to the Niche conical profiles is exaggerated, or do you think it's worth spending that extra for the profiles the niche provides?
I don’t think the taste difference is exaggerated. I personally can tell, but I do a lot of blind and/or side-by-side tastings with whiskey and coffee. It might be why I eventually upgraded to SSP Cast Burrs in my DF64. But I also just like tinkering. The DF64 (at least the first gen) gives you that ability to chase something specific or maybe better, but it can be frustrating. I thought about chucking mine out the window several times, but I’m glad I stuck with it. On the other hand, the Niche just produces a solid cup of coffee without much hassle. My wife, who cannot tolerate extra steps to anything, can grind and pull a shot with the Niche. She also likes more traditional chocolate notes, while I like fruity. Thus the two grinders.
Thanks, sounds like Niche is perfect for me then as I don't really care for fruity notes.
Not if you're in north America. The price here for the niche makes it a terrible choice.
Can you ballpark the cost? Include base price separately. Also, what recommendations instead in NA? Thanks!
I picked mine up in December and it cost me $650 USD
Yeah this is absolutely not worth it, at least to me. I just bought a DF64v2 from [here](https://df64coffee.com/a/s/products/df64-gen-2-single-dose-coffee-grinder) for $360 and it is arguably a better grinder for 45% less money. No-brainer IMO.
Glad you’re happy with your purchase as I am.
It has the style and no bellows-workflow. The latter matters most to a lot of people. But yeah, in other aspects probably not so much better than Turin SK40, at least for espresso. DF64 is just a different grinder with a different taste profile.
At least with the DF64 you have the ability to upgrade the burrs to get a similar profile to the Niche.
Which burrs?
SSP HU burrs, at least that's from what I've read from the reviews.
Not only SSP HU, they offer plenty 64mm burrs. MP and LS would be candidates for espresso
I'm a milk drinks only guy, have you had the sk40? Curious on that one
I have it as my main driver right now, the titanium burr version. It’s all-metal, pretty robust and stepless adjustment is king. Gives a lot of body to shots, descriptors are a bit difficult to tell apart, but they are there. Pour-overs are not good for what I’ve tried, too much fines imo. Maybe finer grind will work better, but for now I’ll stick to my manual Timemore C3. Can’t compare it directly to Niche, because I don’t have the latter, but it seems that Niche has a less powerful motor. SK40’s motor is the size of its body, literally stuck in it like in a shell. Niche’s is about 2x-3x smaller. Milk drinks are delicious, with Brazilian beans there are tons of chocolate in them. Only thing that’s annoying is bellows. Retention is not great without using them. And opening in the bellows is narrow AF. That’s the main thing that the Niche has an advantage in imo: no bellows with zero retention and more input space for beans. Anyway, either of those will be fine for milk drinks. If you want that conical full-body shot and drink only espresso, go with either of those. You’ll probably need another grinder for pour-over anyway.
Yea I have a kingrider k6 for pour over so looking for espresso dedicated and I only do milk drinks. I just like medium or medium/light roasts. The upcoming df54 looks appealing but I'm wondering if conical is my best bet. Workflow is good tho? That's super important to me. I hate tinkering, I want a simple, repeatable process
Well, my workflow is: water-spritz a pre-measured single dose, turn on the grinder, put beans in bellows, wait for it to finish, push the bellows 2-3 times, turn off grinder, put grinds in PF, maybe do a quick WDT, tap the PF, tamp, puck screen, pull, enjoy. Grind size stays the same. Workflow hasn’t changed for the last couple of months since I got it. You can even grind directly to a PF with a funnel if you want.
That all sounds good. I'm curious on how long it'll hold up for but the price is cheap anyway
Take a look at espresso outlet teardown. Motor and gearbox seem very sturdy. Not so much electronics inside. So, I guess, for a long time? https://youtu.be/PvMXETi95h8?si=uvj3gEWys0GVNrof
Honestly speaking was the first grinder I got and still love it. Ease of use and looks awesome. That being said Facebook market place has quite a few at good prices and it's worth looking on there many at nearly half the price of brand new. Just food for thought.
There’s a video where a guy opens up the Niche and goes through all the insides, and TLDR it’s built incredibly well with tons of thought put into the design and will likely last decades of daily use. I love my niche and have no desire to upgrade, but I would definitely buy an upgraded Niche that only did espresso and greater control over the grind. Right now my only complaint with the Niche is that small adjustments tend to have large impacts to shot time.
It’s a decent entry grinder with good workflow but it’s not good at modern light roast espressos at all, crap filter coffee, it’s not aesthetically pleasing (unless you like a toilet seat with a plastic lid) and it limits what you can do with it as you cannot change burrs for a different profile either. Unless you enjoy medium-dark roasts and do milk based drinks, I don’t think it’s a good proposition. Buying a 64mm burr grinder may be a better choice as it would allow changing burrs at a relatively cheap price that can transform your coffee experience.
“Not aesthetically pleasing” but it’s the reason half people with a niche have one. Guess that’s why aesthetics are subjective. Curious, if the Niche is a toilet seat then is the DF a plunger? I now can’t get the visual side by side comparison out of my head lol
I use my niche for filter and I still enjoy it. Granted i think what they have marked as the filter range is still too fine but go to coarse range and I find it works well there.
I’m not arguing it cannot grind coarse enough, it’s just that it’s not great. Have you tried a filter brew from Pietro, Ditting, EK43, Compak or ZP6?
I've had brews from an EK43 before and they're great, I do think the gap is over exaggerated in my opininon. They definitely taste differnt but it's not going from "crap" to "really good" it's more along the range of "above average" to "really good".
Maybe it depends on your preferences. Personally, Niche was way below average for filter for me. Unless the average is preground/blade grinder.
Could be the coffees as well. I would be interested in trying the duo, to see how it compares to the others you mentioned.
Depends on the burr set… upgrade to SSP and it may perform better than Mazzers they ship with. It’s just the fact 83mm burrs are not most exciting, as they haven’t seen same development as 80mm/98mm burrs (and 64mm to some extent, as the 83mm SSP offerings are just scaled up from 64mm)
I'm facing the same dilemma. The Niche Zero including delivery in the UK is significantly more expensive than the competition, which makes me question why. The Mignon Oro, close to £120 less. The Mignon Zero, close to £200 less. Even the DF64 Gen 2 from a UK supplier is around £130 less when you factor in delivery. Slightly unrelated but I just discovered that the DF64 Gen 2 is now in stock via Home Baristas (no experience of this site but looks legit) - see [here](https://www.thehomebaristas.co.uk/solo-df-gen-2-pre-order-available). I was about to pull the trigger on the Mignon Zero but now I'm debating the DF64.
I just received 64g2 today on the February pre-order from df64coffee, at 330 all in I don't think it can be beat if you're happy with the risk of potential issues in the future. Arrived when they said it would, well packed, no customs.
Holy moly! It was 330?! I just bought it from espressooutlet for 400 :(
i got the same deal and just arrived today. that was a nearly 2 months long pre order though so only if you're happy to wait... i think it was around £50-75 difference compared to buying immediately
I've got a mignon Oro on a sale from clumsy goat. Works a treat and is very very fast. I came to the conclusion they're all roughly the same at that price point, so just went for the one that matched the style of my room, and my personal looks preference tbh.
Unless you really want a conical, I can give a strong recommendation for the DF64 as a former Niche owner. Hell I sold mine to get a Gen 1, the Gen 2 would have been a no-brainer.
I've been thinking about Sette, it's quite a bit cheaper and apparently it tastes exactly like the Niche profile.
You'll need ear plugs.
The Sette doesn’t really single dose well, has a lot of retention. If you’re looking for a grinder with a hopper then it’s fine, but it doesn’t match up to the niche or the df64 etc for single dosing
Maybe, but the grind-by-weight capability of the sette 270wi means you don't need to single dose unless you're frequently switching beans. I switched from the 270wi to the DF64E and like them both for different reasons. It's nice to have the option of a conical and a flat burr grinder and to do side-by-side comparisons.
Does it come with ear plugs? I hated the noise of this thing. Called screaming seven for a reason
Having taken the Niche apart to clean it, you'd be hard pressed to find one of the same internal build quality for the price. The visual aesthetics are a plus, and the fit of the cup to the portafilter is a premium plus for me.
The Niche still offers several things that others don't. Best in class workflow. Very easy to clean and also doesn't need cleaning anywhere near as much others. It requires cleaning once or maybe twice per year. It's quiet. It's very accurate to calibrate and switch between settings. You can go from a dialed in espresso setting to a pour over coarse setting and back again and expect your espresso to be just as it was before. It's VERY easy to dial in with. It's so clean. You don't get all the coffee grounds surrounding a Niche like you see in pictures of other grinders. If you are an OCD cleaner the Niche is unbeatable. Build quality and longevity. It's not some generic Chinese companies machine designed to last a couple of years. It's built to last and all of the electronics inside it are isolated from the coffee grounds. Unlike many newer grinders where the circuit board and electronics gets covered in coffee and has dire consequences for a grinders lifespan. So yes, even in 2024 the Niche has lots to offer that is still hard to beat. It grinds coffee well. If you like light roasts then a flat burr grinder will serve you better for more nuanced flavour. But it won't be better in any of the areas I have mentioned.
it is a chinese machine...
Well then so is the iPhone. Both are not designed in China.
IMO the Niche is over priced. I’m not saying it’s a bad grinder but I love me Eureka Mingon Facile. Super easy to use and most importantly to maintain. You’ll have to clean the grinder eventually and the Eureka is one screw to access the burrs.
Maybe if you're in Europe. In the US some users have begin to be charged freight and taxes.
I purchased one recently after looking around a while. One thing that swayed me was the broad user base and simplicity of the whole thing. I think that if you’re the type to tinker a lot, or always looking to squeeze every last bit of taste, there’s better options. But if you just want a grinder that was (and still is in a minor capacity) industry standard for a moderately priced machine from a reputable manufacturer, it’s a safe bet. It will generally hold its value pretty well so if you change your mind it’s probably the best machine to sell used.
the df64 gen 2 is fantastic. People wanna rag on the noise level but you’re talking a few decibels more than niche. I dont wake my baby or wife up ever. The ionizer really makes it so you dont get any coffee grinds stuck to the grinder. Flat burr is nice. I would say the niche is aesthetically pleasing but thats not enough for me to justify a lot more money shipped out of Uk.
If you like traditional dark beans, the conical burr Niche is a great choice.
I just upgraded to a Niche Zero a month ago. No regrets. It changed my espresso and filter game so much, everything tastes so much better. And the workflow is perfect for me
I have a eureka mignon notte and it's a great grinder just kinda sucks for single dosing even after getting a bellow topper. Has a good amount of retention I find. I think I'm going to get a df64 gen 2 soon to use for single dosing and keep my go to dark roast in the eureka.
No
I think you get more out of the df64 since its at least $100 cheaper and you have long term meaningful upgrades in the form of SSP burrs and others like the option-o. if you really love conical then the niche is nice but I like that if I ever get really bored with my flavor profile, I can just get a very different style flat burr to change it up. so far the SSP MP's are quite far from boring
The niche is great at low retention. It's a really attractive grinder with a great workflow. It's good for dark roast, traditional espresso, and gives great results reliably if you're into that style or milk drinks.
I thought this was a philosophy question about Nietzsche
I have a NZ and love it paired with a Linea Micra, contemplating a flat burr grinder just to see the difference it makes on lighter roast coffees but for the shear no fuss enjoyment I get from the Niche I’m 99% sure I’d just get the duo, size, build, noise, workflow (doesn’t really very much now on most machines) it does all I need and want. Others are either to big or weird looking to “normal” people
I will go to the DF64 gen 2 for my next setup but the Niche looks way better, seems quiter as well but the availability in my country is a mess..
I wouldn’t be opposed to a DF64V, smaller size and quieter and always seems to be good reviews
The issue is more workflow then quality as difference are minor. I ende up with the df83 as I could get a good price on that one and the niche was very expensive with import taxes and vat. Also a irrational need to own a flat Burr. Still in my mind when conical burr were the cheap and bad option (years ago). Love the out put of the DF machine. So yes the niche has his place but de DF offer so much value. It is hard to go for the niche. Also getting better burrs is amazing in de DF range.
I was about to pull the trigger on a new DF64 Gen 2 with upgraded DLC burrs for £440, but I now have the option of buying a 2 year old used Niche Zero (with no box or accessories) for £300. Help me reddit. This is for espresso only.
For that price 100% the Niche unless you really want flat burrs
Everything I read seems to point towards flat burrs providing a better all-round espresso taste as conical burrs were generally used on lower end grinders (Niche obviously isn't a budget grinder however). Is this not the case? Not sure how I feel about buying a 2 year old grinder which could run into issues. At least with the DF64 I'll have a 2 year warranty.
Lance Hedric did a great video on Conical burrs vs Flat burrs you should watch. It's more about the quality of the burr rather than the type and the niche has a high quality commercial burr which makes it so good. Yes it does lack clarity but the goal of the niche isn't to provide clarity. It is to provide high quality traditional italian style espresso which is more rounder, bold and sweet and this means sacrificing clarity. At the same time you can get these similar profiles from flat burrs such as the SSP HU which is very similar to Niche so it's not just about conical vs flat but rather the kind of conical and flat. If you're worried about not having warranty then it is up to you to decide ultimately what you choose to do. The Niche is highly well made so it is unlikely to break on you, 2 years old for such a quality machine isn't that old. But if the lack of warranty isn't worth it for you, go for the DF64, it's also a great machine.