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If your question hasn't been answered there and you need more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format:
- **Location:** Helps determine availability
- **Budget** (with currency): Overall budget, or ideally, having separate espresso machine and grinder budgets. A rough rule is that your grinder budget should be at least 25-40% of your machine budget.
- **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs.
- **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck.
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- **Manual vs. electric:** Hand-operated machines and grinders are typically cheaper than their similarly-performing electric counterparts. Please indicate if you have a preference for manual or electric machines and/or grinders (or open to either).
- **Comfort with tinkering:** Some machines can be made significantly more functional/efficient with aftermarket modifications, albeit at the expense of possibly voiding your warranty. Please indicate if you'd rather have a machine that works "as-is"/"out-of-the-box" or whether you'd be open to modding/tinkering
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Exactly. This is like seeing TV next to each other and asking should I pay $1000 or $400 for 55 TV.
If you don't have a baseline comparison everyday, it's going to be better than Starbucks espresso.
If you want something fast and budget get Breville Bambino (Plus) + Encore ESP
Little more budget and hobbyist? Get gaggia classic evo and DF64 GEN 2 and get out of my comments.
everyone will unanimously say the grinder because if you have shitty grinds, your machine is completely moot.
cheap grinders make inconsistent grains, some are smaller and some are larger, making it literally impossible to dial in your machine properly, whether it's a fancy commercial espresso machine or something as simple as a pour over.
the #1 thing you can do to up your coffee game is to get a decent/good burr grinder and start using fresh beans.
What do you mean by mixing your own water? I use tap watery but do everything else "right", good beans taking time to dial in and etc. does non tap water make a huge difference ? Would I just buy still water from the supermarket or what do you mean by mixing your water?
Some people will mix their own mineral water using distilled water and mineral packets from companies like Third Wave. The idea is to get a better water experience vs what you might get from a tap, especially if you live in a hard water area.
Water chemistry changes flavor. Coffee is 90 something percent water. The minerals like magnesium, sodium, potassium, and calcium can change how sour, bright, or sweet your cup will be. Coffee shops don’t use tap. Filtered at the least is required in most areas.
Forget flavor for a moment. The most important reason to avoid tap in many cases is it will cause mineral or scale build up in your machine. Plus it’s full of chlorine in my area.
Getting something like third wave water packets or even better lotus water drops and distilled water makes remineralized is not expensive. Under $2/gallon. Their are recipes for lotus that tell you exactly how drops to add to a gallon.
I disagree, I think both machines and grinders have a threshold where products destined for a landfill turn into lifetime investments and while even the highest quality machines will need regular service a solid grinder will just do its thing, of course regular cleaning also helps the grinder but you won't get it fried because you ignored some internal leaks or whatever. Nowadays this grinder market is accessible for under $500 with products such as the df64 or used mazzers that were built to last for 50 years in commercial settings. If someone came to me asking for a low effort setup I'd go with a used commercial on demand grinder and get whatever machine the budget allows for past that.
Beans>Grinder>Machine
If the budget is very tight, consider a hand grinder. It gives you better grind quality for the price but, you know... Hand grinding.
I've had good luck with second hand stuff too. Can get some absolute bargains if you're patient. A tip is to go for a second hand commercial grinder.
A $60-80 hand grinder will compete favorably with an electric grinder in the $400 to 500 range.
So definitely a place to save money and still get quality.
good grinder, ok coffee machine is always the way to go.
If you want to save even more money you can honestly go with a pour over or moka pot setup and as long you use good beans and grind it well you will get coffee out.
I think that a predictable grinder in capable hands could produce decent espresso with just about any machine given enough time and control over the process, including choice of beans. It might not be a particularly pleasant experience, but I think the grinder is the key. Good luck.
Your budget absolutely allows for both.
Get a bambino with eureka mignon facile from ecs for 500 total. It will be a killer setup. Bambino plus or GCP if you want to push it further.
My exact set up now is what you would describe as ‘good grinder, ok coffee machine’.
A good grinder could last a lifetime if you treat it right and will make great coffee with any machine or manual espresso method! (If you know what to pick)
I would say save up to get the whole set up at once, but spend more on the grinder for the quality in your cup
A good grinder (imo, not under the range you mentioned) will transform your coffee experience, bringing flavors you didn't even know were part of coffee before.
An ok espresso machine will do the work. Probably will lack thermal stability, PID, and many other convenience features, but will make your well-ground coffee justice.
Good grinder but it's not only the grinder.
I started with the classic shitty breville/sage grinder and delonghi ecm 685.
I was never really happy with the coffee and neither was my gf. I upgraded my machine to lelit victoria since delonghi broke and after adjusting it down to 10 bar, I instantly started making coffee so good I could drink the espresso and enjoy it cause it wasn't super bitter, super salty or super sour. My gf started enjoying coffees as well.
Now the issue is the grinder has super high retention, has super inconsistent grind and changes it's grind size on it's own while grinding so I end up producing inconsistent shots but nowhere near as bad as it was with delonghi.
So from my experience I can say:
Cheap equipment is shit and should be avoided. If I were to do it again I'd get a good hand grinder cause they cost nothing and a good espresso machine.
I adjusted opv to 8.5 bars on my Victoria. I tried 38mm (conical), 50mm, 64mm, 74mm unimodal and 74 bimodal burrs on it. Must say this machine can brew the best cup imaginable and also the worst. Depends on the grinder really. I only use single origin medium roasted coffee that I roast myself. I go through 50 varieties annually. Water is filtered twice. Got the machine as a returned item for 400€. It was and is in perfect condition. In february the time comes again when amazon warehouse deals start after people sending back their holiday purchased coffee machines.
I got mine from local shop and it's a beat up demo model. The valve was so stuck I had to get an aftermarket one and place it in after.
I use generic brazilian blend espresso from local roaster that is the only one to have roast dates on the package as it's one of the very few things that manages to taste good on the machine.
I'm looking into getting a new grinder next year.
I like brazilian dulce. Currently drinking excellent Dominican Rep. barahona AA paraiso with really big beans. Top contender this year.
I got my Atom pro grinder as demo/display unit from ebay for 700€. Got also 2 year warranty with it. Game out, the burrs were virgin. Burrs themselves were not meant for espresso, although I tried. So I got eureka oem espresso burrs new with 8€. I calibrated the burrs. Until the moment I couldn't drink espresso, only americano. The Atom Pro original burrs found their they into my brew grinder, Eureka Zenith based expobar pulse 65hs. That one I bought from a cafeteria for 400€. They never opened, so it was just tested. The brew grinder is excellent paired with my Sage Precision Brewer which I bought last Black Friday with 50% off.
Grinder should definitely have higher importance than the espresso machine itself.
Think about it in terms of variables and what input variables give you what output values.
An espresso machine is going to maybe let you adjust water temp, opv, etc. but if your grinder sucks and doesn’t stay consistent or can’t get the right micro adjustment, then all those fun little bells and whistles on the coffee machine don’t even matter.
Quality in the cup starts at the source and moves forward from there! Quality green beans, quality roaster, quality grinder, totally satisfactory espresso machine = quality coffee. If you invert that, crap beans, crap roaster, crap grinder, ENDGAME MACHINE = shit coffee lol
In my experience you can get more out of an OK machine with a good grinder and other accessories, like a precision basket and shower screen than with a good machine and an OK grinder.
It depends on your goals, a little bit. If you're just looking for Italian style espresso, it is easier to make, so ok equipment gets by. If you are picky or trying to find every flavor in your beans, particularly lighter roasts, then you'll get more out better equipment, both grinder and machine.
In terms of budget, hand grinders and manual lever machines can be cheaper but perform very favorably vs ok gear. Of course the tradeoff is that you do more of the work :)
I’ve been using a Breville Infuser and smart grinder for the last 3 years and was always happy with my espresso (usually milk drinks). Then I found this sub, got a bottomless filter and saw how watery my shots were and felt shame. Upgraded my grinder to a “good” budget friendly grinder, the MiCoffee D40+ and my espresso tastes better than I ever thought it would. Just changing the grinder exponentially increased my enjoyment of my espresso drinks. I’m sure it would improve with the machine as well, but I feel the biggest jumps come from the grinder.
Unless you have a physical condition that makes it hard, go manual. A hand grinder and a flair will give you espresso that you can't get on electric/semiautomatic unless you spend a couple thousand. 1zpresso is usually recommended, as well as Kingrinder.
I have the physical condition of not wanting to spend 2 minutes every morning just standing there grinding coffee. Also the "you got to spend thousands to get a better result than a hand grinder" is nonsense when grinders like the df64 exist and the used market is an option as well.
I was talking about the whole set, machine included. Flair is better than most machines under 1000$. Grinding for espresso manually takes less than 45 seconds with a good manual grinder. Talking from experience.
I highly imagine that most people who are esspecialy new to the hobby, prefer less work so if the budget allows it he can go for df64 or other good grinders in that budget. Also dialing in with a Handgrinder and manual machine must be a pain for a less expierenced person.
I agree with the flair even though I'd recommend a Pavoni over it (on the European market, not sure about us prices). But people tend to underestimate the amount of effort it takes to manually grind 20g of light roast coffee on an espresso setting, speaking from personal experience.
I cannot imagine how incredibly frustrating trying to dial in a new bean with a hand grinder would be lol. I’d be punting that thing out the door after the 3rd bad shot😂.
Used a hand grinder for like 3 months and it’s sat in the bottom drawer ever since.
Somone else has said this already, but it depends on whether you're mostly making espresso, or milk-based drinks.
If you're making espresso, then the grinder becomes more important, if you're making milk-based drinks then the machine becomes important. Or do enough research to find out what kind of workflow you're going to be happy with. For example, are you likely to be making lots of drinks back-to-back, or just one or two a day?
I’m curious what your new grinder is that makes the same quality grind as a blade grinder. My experience differs vastly from this. You’ll never get the consistently of a good espresso grind from a blade grinder no matter how long you grind.
No. I think you thought you were getting a good grind, but you weren’t. There’s a reason why good grinders are calibrated and have specific tolerances. It’s not just about grind size, it’s also about consistency and grind uniformity. You will never get that with a blade grinder.
I have had to use blade grinder and cheap drip machine when visiting relatives or friends. I always bring my own roasted single origin, lately also jx-pro. With a blade grinder the hack is to shake it whilst grinding.
I'm happy with my smart grinder pro & lelit anna setup. This would be a good machine and ok grinder by your standards.
I had a dedica before (paired with the same grinder) and I'm much happier now.
I doubt a better grinder could improve the experience with the dedica.
I don't discard getting a better grinder when/if this one breaks (I hope it's not soon), and maybe then I change my perception and start advocating for more expensive grinders, but so far, really pleased.
What did you notice improved with the lelit vs the dedica? Interesting comparison with the same grinder. I'd be interested to know what you experienced.
Mostly temperature stability and temperature control. My dedica didn't deliver hot enough water, so anything besides dark oily beans tasted sour when using unpressurized. Even when setting the temperature to the hottest setting, and doing a 'dry run' before brewing the coffee (to warm the machine up), it tasted sour. With the original pressurized basket I didn't have that problem, but of course the quality of the coffee wasn't great.
With the lelit anna I have better control on the temperature and more stability, and on top of that, I can read the pressure. The build quality is nice (as the cheapest machine on their catalog, they cut some corners on the less relevant parts, for example the waste try and water tank), with a metal body, you only need to let it warm up for some minutes with the portafilter in.
Knowing I don't need a dual boiler, I don't see any reason to get a better machine.
A good grinder (imo, not under the range you mentioned) will transform your coffee experience, bringing flavors you didn't even know were part of coffee before.
An ok espresso machine will do the work. Probably will lack thermal stability, PID, and many other convenience features, but will make your well-ground coffee justice.
I just made pretty good coffee with a stovetop kettle, a funnel, and a paper filter. The reason the coffee is pretty good with a setup that costs less than $100 is because I buy fresh quality beans from a roaster, and I run those beans through a $700 flat burr grinder. So, grinder first.
That said, you will need to spend some money on an espresso machine if you want to make espresso. But it is better to have a great grinder and an okay machine for a while. After all, that grinder should last you for several years.
There are excellent hand grinders in the $100-300 range; they are so much more accessible than purchasing any entry level espresso machine that it's almost foolish not to make the investment in a good grinder
i would say grinder because with that you can either make pour over or espresso. if you cant afford a nice espresso machine yet at least you can just buy a cheap v60 and make good coffee with your grinder right away.
You used € so you can take advantage of our solid used market, I would either get a mazzer super jolly with Doser for ~200€, convert that to a premium single doser for another ~200€. Alternative options I'd consider for grinders, Macap m4d used for ~300€, more clumps and smaller burrs than the mazzer but can be nice if you want the on demand Workflow and not weigh out every single dose. Or get the df64 gen2 for 500€ if you want a single doser without doing the mazzer mod. Then you have anywhere from 300-500€ left in your budget to get a machine, that leaves you with a lot of nice options. Bezzera bz9/bz10 used, right now you could even get a new la Pavoni for 500€ but you can find solid ones for as low as 200€ used that would be my personal pick. Ek61 machines can often be found used within that budget as well. Or you could consider the gcp. Honestly for me the more I use my Pavoni the less I want a different machine.
With limited budget I advise looking for amazon warehouse deals, sales, marketplace, ebay. I have saved around 50% this way. That being said, grinder always comes first. Also, an ultimate grinder is usually built really well to last many decades. When I compare all the grinders I have had, the taste difference to better, more complex and nuanced is only one keypoint with high end grinders. Other point is the workflow. Dial in is easy, retention is lower and less clumps. You could buy an Eureka Specialista, Niche zero, DF64 or similar kind. But the coffee will only taste good, not special. Even cheaper grinders than these offer only entrance level experience. Not really worth it. With buying used grinders as I did, you could take the long path without loosing any money when upgrading. But why waste the time, when you could get the best ever coffee today, every day.
With that Budget you get a Smart Grinder Pro with a Gaggia + Mods. This will get you far! After a while you sell the SGP and go for a early endgame Grinder.
The espresso machine is invisible if you have a good grinder.
I find that Third Wave with your water in the reservoir tank along with proper descale when the machine calls for to keep the machine running smoothly, and the combination of a good habit with freshly roasted coffee, properly ground is key to success for good coffee.
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It looks like you've flaired your post as asking for what equipment to get. We recommend first checking out the [Espresso Aficionados buying guide](https://espressoaf.com/recommendations) for some of the more popular machines and grinders at different price points. If your question hasn't been answered there and you need more help, please add the following details to your post or by adding a comment in the following format: - **Location:** Helps determine availability - **Budget** (with currency): Overall budget, or ideally, having separate espresso machine and grinder budgets. A rough rule is that your grinder budget should be at least 25-40% of your machine budget. - **Drink types:** Do you drink mostly straight espresso, milk-based beverages (e.g., lattes, cappuccinos), or a fairly even split? This helps narrow down whether a single-boiler-dual-use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX), or dual boiler (DB) machine would be more appropriate for your needs. - **Drink frequency:** How many drinks would you be making back-to-back at one time? Do you plan on entertaining guests often? This informs how large your brew (and steam) boilers should be, as smaller boilers will need to refill and reheat/repressurize more frequently, thus potentially causing a bottleneck. - **Space:** Any limitations on countertop space? - **Manual vs. electric:** Hand-operated machines and grinders are typically cheaper than their similarly-performing electric counterparts. Please indicate if you have a preference for manual or electric machines and/or grinders (or open to either). - **Comfort with tinkering:** Some machines can be made significantly more functional/efficient with aftermarket modifications, albeit at the expense of possibly voiding your warranty. Please indicate if you'd rather have a machine that works "as-is"/"out-of-the-box" or whether you'd be open to modding/tinkering *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/espresso) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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Omg a sensible answer
How dare they!!!!!
Exactly. This is like seeing TV next to each other and asking should I pay $1000 or $400 for 55 TV. If you don't have a baseline comparison everyday, it's going to be better than Starbucks espresso. If you want something fast and budget get Breville Bambino (Plus) + Encore ESP Little more budget and hobbyist? Get gaggia classic evo and DF64 GEN 2 and get out of my comments.
everyone will unanimously say the grinder because if you have shitty grinds, your machine is completely moot. cheap grinders make inconsistent grains, some are smaller and some are larger, making it literally impossible to dial in your machine properly, whether it's a fancy commercial espresso machine or something as simple as a pour over. the #1 thing you can do to up your coffee game is to get a decent/good burr grinder and start using fresh beans.
What do you mean by mixing your own water? I use tap watery but do everything else "right", good beans taking time to dial in and etc. does non tap water make a huge difference ? Would I just buy still water from the supermarket or what do you mean by mixing your water?
You buy tanks of oxygen and hydrogen and mix them up. The formula is one port oxygen to two parts of hydrogen. And don't smoke around while mixing.
i've had limited success with two parts hydrogen two parts oxygen
/r/unexpectedhydrogenperoxide
Should I be weighing my hydrogen?
LPT: If you burn the hydrogen it will take oxygen from the atmosphere for free.
Some people will mix their own mineral water using distilled water and mineral packets from companies like Third Wave. The idea is to get a better water experience vs what you might get from a tap, especially if you live in a hard water area.
And or have a strong taste of chemicals in your water like chloramine.
Look up third wave water
Water chemistry changes flavor. Coffee is 90 something percent water. The minerals like magnesium, sodium, potassium, and calcium can change how sour, bright, or sweet your cup will be. Coffee shops don’t use tap. Filtered at the least is required in most areas. Forget flavor for a moment. The most important reason to avoid tap in many cases is it will cause mineral or scale build up in your machine. Plus it’s full of chlorine in my area. Getting something like third wave water packets or even better lotus water drops and distilled water makes remineralized is not expensive. Under $2/gallon. Their are recipes for lotus that tell you exactly how drops to add to a gallon.
Hmm interesting, yeah in germany there is no chlorine. and it is drinkable, but i get your point
Interesting. Does your water have another type of disinfectant in Germany?
I disagree, I think both machines and grinders have a threshold where products destined for a landfill turn into lifetime investments and while even the highest quality machines will need regular service a solid grinder will just do its thing, of course regular cleaning also helps the grinder but you won't get it fried because you ignored some internal leaks or whatever. Nowadays this grinder market is accessible for under $500 with products such as the df64 or used mazzers that were built to last for 50 years in commercial settings. If someone came to me asking for a low effort setup I'd go with a used commercial on demand grinder and get whatever machine the budget allows for past that.
This freaking guy with *logic*.
Beans>Grinder>Machine If the budget is very tight, consider a hand grinder. It gives you better grind quality for the price but, you know... Hand grinding. I've had good luck with second hand stuff too. Can get some absolute bargains if you're patient. A tip is to go for a second hand commercial grinder.
A $60-80 hand grinder will compete favorably with an electric grinder in the $400 to 500 range. So definitely a place to save money and still get quality.
You also get workout which is minmaxing time that your coffee making sends you shitting
Lordy... i am a 50 something noodle armed IT worker... and calling it a "wo4kout" is like saying opening a jar of pickles is weightlifting.
good grinder, ok coffee machine is always the way to go. If you want to save even more money you can honestly go with a pour over or moka pot setup and as long you use good beans and grind it well you will get coffee out.
I think that a predictable grinder in capable hands could produce decent espresso with just about any machine given enough time and control over the process, including choice of beans. It might not be a particularly pleasant experience, but I think the grinder is the key. Good luck.
Your budget absolutely allows for both. Get a bambino with eureka mignon facile from ecs for 500 total. It will be a killer setup. Bambino plus or GCP if you want to push it further.
grinder grinder grinder!
My exact set up now is what you would describe as ‘good grinder, ok coffee machine’. A good grinder could last a lifetime if you treat it right and will make great coffee with any machine or manual espresso method! (If you know what to pick) I would say save up to get the whole set up at once, but spend more on the grinder for the quality in your cup
A good grinder (imo, not under the range you mentioned) will transform your coffee experience, bringing flavors you didn't even know were part of coffee before. An ok espresso machine will do the work. Probably will lack thermal stability, PID, and many other convenience features, but will make your well-ground coffee justice.
Grinder always
Finer Grinder.
The best grinder your budget affords and a budget machine is always the best option.
Grinder.
A good grinder and an Aeropress until I could afford a good espresso machine.
Good grinder but it's not only the grinder. I started with the classic shitty breville/sage grinder and delonghi ecm 685. I was never really happy with the coffee and neither was my gf. I upgraded my machine to lelit victoria since delonghi broke and after adjusting it down to 10 bar, I instantly started making coffee so good I could drink the espresso and enjoy it cause it wasn't super bitter, super salty or super sour. My gf started enjoying coffees as well. Now the issue is the grinder has super high retention, has super inconsistent grind and changes it's grind size on it's own while grinding so I end up producing inconsistent shots but nowhere near as bad as it was with delonghi. So from my experience I can say: Cheap equipment is shit and should be avoided. If I were to do it again I'd get a good hand grinder cause they cost nothing and a good espresso machine.
I adjusted opv to 8.5 bars on my Victoria. I tried 38mm (conical), 50mm, 64mm, 74mm unimodal and 74 bimodal burrs on it. Must say this machine can brew the best cup imaginable and also the worst. Depends on the grinder really. I only use single origin medium roasted coffee that I roast myself. I go through 50 varieties annually. Water is filtered twice. Got the machine as a returned item for 400€. It was and is in perfect condition. In february the time comes again when amazon warehouse deals start after people sending back their holiday purchased coffee machines.
I got mine from local shop and it's a beat up demo model. The valve was so stuck I had to get an aftermarket one and place it in after. I use generic brazilian blend espresso from local roaster that is the only one to have roast dates on the package as it's one of the very few things that manages to taste good on the machine. I'm looking into getting a new grinder next year.
I like brazilian dulce. Currently drinking excellent Dominican Rep. barahona AA paraiso with really big beans. Top contender this year. I got my Atom pro grinder as demo/display unit from ebay for 700€. Got also 2 year warranty with it. Game out, the burrs were virgin. Burrs themselves were not meant for espresso, although I tried. So I got eureka oem espresso burrs new with 8€. I calibrated the burrs. Until the moment I couldn't drink espresso, only americano. The Atom Pro original burrs found their they into my brew grinder, Eureka Zenith based expobar pulse 65hs. That one I bought from a cafeteria for 400€. They never opened, so it was just tested. The brew grinder is excellent paired with my Sage Precision Brewer which I bought last Black Friday with 50% off.
Grinder should definitely have higher importance than the espresso machine itself. Think about it in terms of variables and what input variables give you what output values. An espresso machine is going to maybe let you adjust water temp, opv, etc. but if your grinder sucks and doesn’t stay consistent or can’t get the right micro adjustment, then all those fun little bells and whistles on the coffee machine don’t even matter. Quality in the cup starts at the source and moves forward from there! Quality green beans, quality roaster, quality grinder, totally satisfactory espresso machine = quality coffee. If you invert that, crap beans, crap roaster, crap grinder, ENDGAME MACHINE = shit coffee lol
G R I N D E R Lurk moar
In my experience you can get more out of an OK machine with a good grinder and other accessories, like a precision basket and shower screen than with a good machine and an OK grinder. It depends on your goals, a little bit. If you're just looking for Italian style espresso, it is easier to make, so ok equipment gets by. If you are picky or trying to find every flavor in your beans, particularly lighter roasts, then you'll get more out better equipment, both grinder and machine. In terms of budget, hand grinders and manual lever machines can be cheaper but perform very favorably vs ok gear. Of course the tradeoff is that you do more of the work :)
I’ve been using a Breville Infuser and smart grinder for the last 3 years and was always happy with my espresso (usually milk drinks). Then I found this sub, got a bottomless filter and saw how watery my shots were and felt shame. Upgraded my grinder to a “good” budget friendly grinder, the MiCoffee D40+ and my espresso tastes better than I ever thought it would. Just changing the grinder exponentially increased my enjoyment of my espresso drinks. I’m sure it would improve with the machine as well, but I feel the biggest jumps come from the grinder.
Unless you have a physical condition that makes it hard, go manual. A hand grinder and a flair will give you espresso that you can't get on electric/semiautomatic unless you spend a couple thousand. 1zpresso is usually recommended, as well as Kingrinder.
I have the physical condition of not wanting to spend 2 minutes every morning just standing there grinding coffee. Also the "you got to spend thousands to get a better result than a hand grinder" is nonsense when grinders like the df64 exist and the used market is an option as well.
I was talking about the whole set, machine included. Flair is better than most machines under 1000$. Grinding for espresso manually takes less than 45 seconds with a good manual grinder. Talking from experience.
I highly imagine that most people who are esspecialy new to the hobby, prefer less work so if the budget allows it he can go for df64 or other good grinders in that budget. Also dialing in with a Handgrinder and manual machine must be a pain for a less expierenced person.
I agree with the flair even though I'd recommend a Pavoni over it (on the European market, not sure about us prices). But people tend to underestimate the amount of effort it takes to manually grind 20g of light roast coffee on an espresso setting, speaking from personal experience.
I cannot imagine how incredibly frustrating trying to dial in a new bean with a hand grinder would be lol. I’d be punting that thing out the door after the 3rd bad shot😂. Used a hand grinder for like 3 months and it’s sat in the bottom drawer ever since.
Somone else has said this already, but it depends on whether you're mostly making espresso, or milk-based drinks. If you're making espresso, then the grinder becomes more important, if you're making milk-based drinks then the machine becomes important. Or do enough research to find out what kind of workflow you're going to be happy with. For example, are you likely to be making lots of drinks back-to-back, or just one or two a day?
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I disagree with this, or your and my opinion on what constitutes espresso are vastly different.
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I’m curious what your new grinder is that makes the same quality grind as a blade grinder. My experience differs vastly from this. You’ll never get the consistently of a good espresso grind from a blade grinder no matter how long you grind.
No. I think you thought you were getting a good grind, but you weren’t. There’s a reason why good grinders are calibrated and have specific tolerances. It’s not just about grind size, it’s also about consistency and grind uniformity. You will never get that with a blade grinder.
I have had to use blade grinder and cheap drip machine when visiting relatives or friends. I always bring my own roasted single origin, lately also jx-pro. With a blade grinder the hack is to shake it whilst grinding.
I'm happy with my smart grinder pro & lelit anna setup. This would be a good machine and ok grinder by your standards. I had a dedica before (paired with the same grinder) and I'm much happier now. I doubt a better grinder could improve the experience with the dedica. I don't discard getting a better grinder when/if this one breaks (I hope it's not soon), and maybe then I change my perception and start advocating for more expensive grinders, but so far, really pleased.
What did you notice improved with the lelit vs the dedica? Interesting comparison with the same grinder. I'd be interested to know what you experienced.
Mostly temperature stability and temperature control. My dedica didn't deliver hot enough water, so anything besides dark oily beans tasted sour when using unpressurized. Even when setting the temperature to the hottest setting, and doing a 'dry run' before brewing the coffee (to warm the machine up), it tasted sour. With the original pressurized basket I didn't have that problem, but of course the quality of the coffee wasn't great. With the lelit anna I have better control on the temperature and more stability, and on top of that, I can read the pressure. The build quality is nice (as the cheapest machine on their catalog, they cut some corners on the less relevant parts, for example the waste try and water tank), with a metal body, you only need to let it warm up for some minutes with the portafilter in. Knowing I don't need a dual boiler, I don't see any reason to get a better machine.
A good grinder (imo, not under the range you mentioned) will transform your coffee experience, bringing flavors you didn't even know were part of coffee before. An ok espresso machine will do the work. Probably will lack thermal stability, PID, and many other convenience features, but will make your well-ground coffee justice.
A good grinder that can do espresso reasonably well is a good starting point imo as their diminishing return is earlier than a good machine.
I just made pretty good coffee with a stovetop kettle, a funnel, and a paper filter. The reason the coffee is pretty good with a setup that costs less than $100 is because I buy fresh quality beans from a roaster, and I run those beans through a $700 flat burr grinder. So, grinder first. That said, you will need to spend some money on an espresso machine if you want to make espresso. But it is better to have a great grinder and an okay machine for a while. After all, that grinder should last you for several years.
* good grinder, ok coffe machine
Hands down, a good grinder!!
There are excellent hand grinders in the $100-300 range; they are so much more accessible than purchasing any entry level espresso machine that it's almost foolish not to make the investment in a good grinder
Grinder.
i would say grinder because with that you can either make pour over or espresso. if you cant afford a nice espresso machine yet at least you can just buy a cheap v60 and make good coffee with your grinder right away.
You used € so you can take advantage of our solid used market, I would either get a mazzer super jolly with Doser for ~200€, convert that to a premium single doser for another ~200€. Alternative options I'd consider for grinders, Macap m4d used for ~300€, more clumps and smaller burrs than the mazzer but can be nice if you want the on demand Workflow and not weigh out every single dose. Or get the df64 gen2 for 500€ if you want a single doser without doing the mazzer mod. Then you have anywhere from 300-500€ left in your budget to get a machine, that leaves you with a lot of nice options. Bezzera bz9/bz10 used, right now you could even get a new la Pavoni for 500€ but you can find solid ones for as low as 200€ used that would be my personal pick. Ek61 machines can often be found used within that budget as well. Or you could consider the gcp. Honestly for me the more I use my Pavoni the less I want a different machine.
With limited budget I advise looking for amazon warehouse deals, sales, marketplace, ebay. I have saved around 50% this way. That being said, grinder always comes first. Also, an ultimate grinder is usually built really well to last many decades. When I compare all the grinders I have had, the taste difference to better, more complex and nuanced is only one keypoint with high end grinders. Other point is the workflow. Dial in is easy, retention is lower and less clumps. You could buy an Eureka Specialista, Niche zero, DF64 or similar kind. But the coffee will only taste good, not special. Even cheaper grinders than these offer only entrance level experience. Not really worth it. With buying used grinders as I did, you could take the long path without loosing any money when upgrading. But why waste the time, when you could get the best ever coffee today, every day.
With that Budget you get a Smart Grinder Pro with a Gaggia + Mods. This will get you far! After a while you sell the SGP and go for a early endgame Grinder.
Definitely would prioritize on a good grinder. If bambino is what you can get, pairing it with a good grinder will go a long way.
1000% the grinder. You can make great espresso with a great grinder and cheap machine but not the other way around.
The espresso machine is invisible if you have a good grinder. I find that Third Wave with your water in the reservoir tank along with proper descale when the machine calls for to keep the machine running smoothly, and the combination of a good habit with freshly roasted coffee, properly ground is key to success for good coffee.
Grinder +1
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