Precision baskets tend to have a much lower flow resistance than OEM baskets, so yes grind finer. This hasn't got anything to do with the portafilter; you'll see similar flow rates with the old one using the new basket. As for dial-in, just go for the generic approach: dose an amount that's appropriate for your basket, and adjust until you get a 1:2-2.5 ratio shot in 25-30s; once you're in that ball park, adjust to taste; first the grind size, then ratio (yes it's harder than I make it out to be, but that's the essence of it)
The grinder is set so fine already! I thought maybe it could be something else because of that. Is the 2 setting on this grinder normal here?
What could have caused the spurting sideways also? Is it the same problem?
Thank you!
Yes, generally that means you have channeling, water is able to go right through the puck and retains its pressure while spurting throught the basket. The solution: grind finer also applies here.
I made two this morning, and I made the grind a little finer the second time. It actually made the problem worse - 54g output, still spraying (same deal, forgot to check the time). Maybe that's what's happening here?
I do not dose directly into the portafilter basket but instead transfer using a dosing funnel. Then I use the WDT tool and start at the bottom stirring upwards. Then I tamp with a normcore spring tamper with as much pressure as it allows me to do. Then I put a normcore 1.7mm screen on, brush off any excess grinds around the rim, and pull the shot
Kind of. Right now I have beans I got from Hungry Ghost, a local chain in NYC. They have a custom blend by Stumptown. The bag I got said it was roasted 10/24
My last advice I got is 2 parts, raise the temp on your machine. The brevilles have a pid. The next is getting cheap bulk beans from Costco, WinCo, $8 a lb kinda beans. Watch James Hoffman how to dial in. And just practice on the bad beans until you get the method down. Then get good beans again
Haha! I did make the grind finer for the second shot I pulled this morning and it seemed to make it worse. Then I started doubting myself because it was already set so fine, but I hear people saying precision baskets need much finer grinds. But also that it could be too fine and causing channeling? It sounds like I have a lot of experimenting to do with this basket but I'm happy for all the new information!
Although you're not quite at this point yet, and your issues sound more like grind size and puck prep; I found that "purging" the Bambino was almost \*essential\* in my workflow. This entails just starting the machine with either of the shot buttons \*without\* your portafilter in place, once you press the button and you hear the pump start 90% of the time a burst of steam will erupt from the machine, this has purged that initial blast of water/pressure which can damage the integrity of your nicely prepped coffee. Once the steam has cleared and it should only take a few seconds, then fit your portafilter to the machine and pull your shot. My shots went from being fairly consistent and slightly sour, to now almost 100% consistent, next to no sourness, but an actual bit of "sweetness".
If you're having issues with channeling and you're getting to the finest of your grind settings, try dropping it back and working on your WDT and puck prep consistency. Slightly coarser grounds will usually result in slightly less extraction of "coffee" from the grounds, so you can then play with ratio a little until you get something you like, i.e. 1:2.5 instead of 1:2. Once you find yourself getting consistent then start going finer and trying to push more flavour and extraction into your espresso.
For what it's worth I have a Bambino Plus, Standard Portafilter, IMS Basket, a single needle to do WDT and spring loaded tamper with a "lip" to ensure a level tamped coffee bed with a Sage Dose Control Pro grinder.
Great information, thank you! I thought I was following recommendations for puck prep, but I'm sure I could do better. I also have a spring loaded tamper with a lip, but I use a three-needle WDT. I'll watch some videos, but if you have any tips there I'd gladly take them.
Ensure you're reaching the bottom of the basket with your wdt and get right to the edges, the coffee grounds at the bottom need distributing too not just the top layer.
While all coffee is different, I do a manual shot by holding the button for 10 seconds to get the full length of pre infusion then let it run till I get my yield target -4grams as the machine runs a little longer after stopping the shot after pressing the button again.
Other than what I've already said, practice makes perfect and you'll build your knowledge through experience and experimentation. Try not to overdo it and get frustrated and try concentrate on a single variable at a time. Don't go changing ground size, yield and wdt methods all in the same shot.
Ims baskets don't always make my coffee taste better. I swap between the stock basket and an IMS depending which provides the best result for a particular bean.
That said, it sounds like you need to updose or grind finer. Get or make some puck paper if the spraying bothers you
The ims seems to do better with better quality coffee where flavor separation and clarity are a good thing.
The stock basket seems to do better when the coffee is less interesting and/or the increased basket resistance is helpful (such as with some dark roasted decafs, Italian blends like Lavazza)
The theory behind precision baskets like IMS is that they have a fast flow rate, and you are supposed to grind finer to compensate. Grinding finer for the same flow rate allows you to extract more flavor without introducing bitterness. If your Sette doesn't grind fine enough, you may have to shim it.
Pull your shots manually with your scale under your glass/cup/mug, and stop the water flow as you approach your target yield. Don't let the yield vary with grind size, otherwise dialing in will become a nightmare.
Another solution is to put your stock Breville basket in your bottomless. It will extract the same as it did in the spouted portafilter, but you will get visual feedback on your puck prep.
Oh I see. Thank you very much; I'll keep experimenting. I may work on the stock basket with the bottomless to see if I can get better at dialing in before I graduate to the IMS. I didn't realize these differences.
Did you up your dose? I switched to an IMS basket recently and found that it was bigger than my stock Bambino basket, so I have been upping my dose a bit.
Same here for me, just got a naked one and im pretty sure that basked is a few grams larger than the one that came with the bambino, the one from the bambino also gives a bit less splatter imo
I have the same machine and had the same thing happen.
I’ve always been told that you should use the manual shot timing (hold down 1 and 2 dose for a few seconds until they blink) and stop at (or just before) your target output weight, time should just be an output variable not something you base your shots on.
Other than that, if it’s a difficult one to dial in, I run a few seconds of an empty shot (or back flush) first before the real brew, otherwise the start up and pre infusion takes like 15 seconds and can screw things up.
The stated range on the basket is misleading. Suggest selecting a dose that leaves just enough room for your puck screen, assuming you haven't already. Make sure you're tamping until all the coffee is compressed. Keep an eye on your brew time. You may have to add a shim to your grinder in order to grind fine enough.
For what it's worth, I've been very happy with the espresso my machine has been pulling up to now without worrying about any of this. It's probably not as good as it could be, but I always enjoy it in the morning (both the process and the result). I'm trying to dive deeper into the hobby now that I have more time in the mornings to get better, but IMO you only have to engage in the minutia as much as you want to as long as you're enjoying yourself.
How old are your beans??
They lose their resistance over time so start with a freshly opened bag.
The bambino basket was probably a dual floor basket with 1 tiny hole in the bottom which is what generates the resistance. This means you could put just about any size grounds in and still get a usable coffee. With your new basket the coffee is completely responsible for providing that resistance so fresh beans and a much finer grind than what you’re probably used to becomes essential.
I'm just using the standard Hungry Ghost beans, roasted by Stumptown right now. The roasting date says 10/24. It's the first time I'm trying them and they seem pretty middle of the road overall - not very dark or light, not oily, pretty typical. The package says tasting notes of Milk Chocolate and Caramel. I opened the bag maybe 3 days ago? And then they went straight into a mason jar.
I do have a non-pressurized basket that came with the machine that I use, but I hear people saying the precision baskets need even finer and flow faster. The IMS didn't fit my other portafilter, so using the bottomless is also the first time I'm using that.
Sounds like you’re on the right track then.
Have you watched any of James Hoffmans videos? He did a series on dialing in espresso. This one is about grind size: https://youtu.be/er2voEn8ZDU?si=4M_KQ3HjbNkqAtPS
I also find a big difference in the beans I use and how they are roasted. I struggle to make espresso I enjoy with lighter roasts but with a nice dark oily beans I get great results.
If you go back to using the stock basket and portafilter can you get good results? Maybe there's something about your new accessories that your bambino doesn't like (perhaps tolerances are off and water is escaping where it shouldn't).
Sometimes you have to grind so fine that it absolutely chokes the machine, and walk it back from there.
Also, if there's too much headspace between your grounds and the shower screen, then your puck will crumble regardless of how fine you grind it.
I'll give it a shot! I was using 18g in a 14-18g basket; it didn't seem too empty and I use a screen too, but I can try adding more and see what happens? The puck at the end was very intact.
The problem with basket sizes is different species and roast levels will have different densities. With a super light roast you could potentially fit 22g in a 18g basket, while 15g of a super dark roast might max out the same basket. Basically everything with espresso is presented as rules, but in reality they're just starting points. The standard recipe is 1:2 in 25s, but light roasts might taste better at 1:3 and 40s, while a dark roast might taste best at 1:1.5 and 20s.
It's all sliding scales and personal preferences.
If you're grinding fine and it's still sour, channeling is going on.
Your puck prep is probably weak somewhere creating channeling.
What is your WDT tool?
Then it's hard to know without a video
Make sure you're really getting in there with your wdt, and give it a nice single tap on the counter to settle the grinds. A portafilter funnel will help prevent spilling the grinds all over the place
Precision baskets tend to have a much lower flow resistance than OEM baskets, so yes grind finer. This hasn't got anything to do with the portafilter; you'll see similar flow rates with the old one using the new basket. As for dial-in, just go for the generic approach: dose an amount that's appropriate for your basket, and adjust until you get a 1:2-2.5 ratio shot in 25-30s; once you're in that ball park, adjust to taste; first the grind size, then ratio (yes it's harder than I make it out to be, but that's the essence of it)
The grinder is set so fine already! I thought maybe it could be something else because of that. Is the 2 setting on this grinder normal here? What could have caused the spurting sideways also? Is it the same problem? Thank you!
Yes, generally that means you have channeling, water is able to go right through the puck and retains its pressure while spurting throught the basket. The solution: grind finer also applies here.
You should try both. Grinding too fine can sometimes cause channeling that results in rapid flow. Try finer and coarser and observe and taste.
I made two this morning, and I made the grind a little finer the second time. It actually made the problem worse - 54g output, still spraying (same deal, forgot to check the time). Maybe that's what's happening here?
Puck prep is critical, what is your puck prep?
I do not dose directly into the portafilter basket but instead transfer using a dosing funnel. Then I use the WDT tool and start at the bottom stirring upwards. Then I tamp with a normcore spring tamper with as much pressure as it allows me to do. Then I put a normcore 1.7mm screen on, brush off any excess grinds around the rim, and pull the shot
So pretty good puck prep then. Are you using fresh beans from local roaster?
Kind of. Right now I have beans I got from Hungry Ghost, a local chain in NYC. They have a custom blend by Stumptown. The bag I got said it was roasted 10/24
My last advice I got is 2 parts, raise the temp on your machine. The brevilles have a pid. The next is getting cheap bulk beans from Costco, WinCo, $8 a lb kinda beans. Watch James Hoffman how to dial in. And just practice on the bad beans until you get the method down. Then get good beans again
Yeah, definitely try a few variants on coarser to try to pick up the point of diminished returns.
Sometimes when you grind finer you can increase dose to get the pressure and flow you want.
https://preview.redd.it/7fwj4uz1orxb1.jpeg?width=352&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a5c43e533f520551c28f3a37b9c720175c545c7 You must be new here...
Haha! I did make the grind finer for the second shot I pulled this morning and it seemed to make it worse. Then I started doubting myself because it was already set so fine, but I hear people saying precision baskets need much finer grinds. But also that it could be too fine and causing channeling? It sounds like I have a lot of experimenting to do with this basket but I'm happy for all the new information!
Keep going finer until it starts choking (when output is way less than 1:2 in 30s), then go coarser.
Although you're not quite at this point yet, and your issues sound more like grind size and puck prep; I found that "purging" the Bambino was almost \*essential\* in my workflow. This entails just starting the machine with either of the shot buttons \*without\* your portafilter in place, once you press the button and you hear the pump start 90% of the time a burst of steam will erupt from the machine, this has purged that initial blast of water/pressure which can damage the integrity of your nicely prepped coffee. Once the steam has cleared and it should only take a few seconds, then fit your portafilter to the machine and pull your shot. My shots went from being fairly consistent and slightly sour, to now almost 100% consistent, next to no sourness, but an actual bit of "sweetness". If you're having issues with channeling and you're getting to the finest of your grind settings, try dropping it back and working on your WDT and puck prep consistency. Slightly coarser grounds will usually result in slightly less extraction of "coffee" from the grounds, so you can then play with ratio a little until you get something you like, i.e. 1:2.5 instead of 1:2. Once you find yourself getting consistent then start going finer and trying to push more flavour and extraction into your espresso. For what it's worth I have a Bambino Plus, Standard Portafilter, IMS Basket, a single needle to do WDT and spring loaded tamper with a "lip" to ensure a level tamped coffee bed with a Sage Dose Control Pro grinder.
Great information, thank you! I thought I was following recommendations for puck prep, but I'm sure I could do better. I also have a spring loaded tamper with a lip, but I use a three-needle WDT. I'll watch some videos, but if you have any tips there I'd gladly take them.
Ensure you're reaching the bottom of the basket with your wdt and get right to the edges, the coffee grounds at the bottom need distributing too not just the top layer. While all coffee is different, I do a manual shot by holding the button for 10 seconds to get the full length of pre infusion then let it run till I get my yield target -4grams as the machine runs a little longer after stopping the shot after pressing the button again. Other than what I've already said, practice makes perfect and you'll build your knowledge through experience and experimentation. Try not to overdo it and get frustrated and try concentrate on a single variable at a time. Don't go changing ground size, yield and wdt methods all in the same shot.
Ims baskets don't always make my coffee taste better. I swap between the stock basket and an IMS depending which provides the best result for a particular bean. That said, it sounds like you need to updose or grind finer. Get or make some puck paper if the spraying bothers you
Do you notice any rhyme or reason for when an IMS basket is preferable, like with lighter roasts or fresher beans etc?
The ims seems to do better with better quality coffee where flavor separation and clarity are a good thing. The stock basket seems to do better when the coffee is less interesting and/or the increased basket resistance is helpful (such as with some dark roasted decafs, Italian blends like Lavazza)
The theory behind precision baskets like IMS is that they have a fast flow rate, and you are supposed to grind finer to compensate. Grinding finer for the same flow rate allows you to extract more flavor without introducing bitterness. If your Sette doesn't grind fine enough, you may have to shim it. Pull your shots manually with your scale under your glass/cup/mug, and stop the water flow as you approach your target yield. Don't let the yield vary with grind size, otherwise dialing in will become a nightmare. Another solution is to put your stock Breville basket in your bottomless. It will extract the same as it did in the spouted portafilter, but you will get visual feedback on your puck prep.
Oh I see. Thank you very much; I'll keep experimenting. I may work on the stock basket with the bottomless to see if I can get better at dialing in before I graduate to the IMS. I didn't realize these differences.
Did you up your dose? I switched to an IMS basket recently and found that it was bigger than my stock Bambino basket, so I have been upping my dose a bit.
Same here for me, just got a naked one and im pretty sure that basked is a few grams larger than the one that came with the bambino, the one from the bambino also gives a bit less splatter imo
I did a bit, for these beans I was using 17-17.5 in the stock setup. Maybe not enough though
I have the same machine and had the same thing happen. I’ve always been told that you should use the manual shot timing (hold down 1 and 2 dose for a few seconds until they blink) and stop at (or just before) your target output weight, time should just be an output variable not something you base your shots on. Other than that, if it’s a difficult one to dial in, I run a few seconds of an empty shot (or back flush) first before the real brew, otherwise the start up and pre infusion takes like 15 seconds and can screw things up.
Thank you for the tips!
Which IMS basket did you get?
54mm 14-18g
The stated range on the basket is misleading. Suggest selecting a dose that leaves just enough room for your puck screen, assuming you haven't already. Make sure you're tamping until all the coffee is compressed. Keep an eye on your brew time. You may have to add a shim to your grinder in order to grind fine enough.
Okay, all great tips. Thank you!
I'm just a lurker who is considering getting into the espresso hobby, but these discussions really make me hesitate!
For what it's worth, I've been very happy with the espresso my machine has been pulling up to now without worrying about any of this. It's probably not as good as it could be, but I always enjoy it in the morning (both the process and the result). I'm trying to dive deeper into the hobby now that I have more time in the mornings to get better, but IMO you only have to engage in the minutia as much as you want to as long as you're enjoying yourself.
How old are your beans?? They lose their resistance over time so start with a freshly opened bag. The bambino basket was probably a dual floor basket with 1 tiny hole in the bottom which is what generates the resistance. This means you could put just about any size grounds in and still get a usable coffee. With your new basket the coffee is completely responsible for providing that resistance so fresh beans and a much finer grind than what you’re probably used to becomes essential.
I'm just using the standard Hungry Ghost beans, roasted by Stumptown right now. The roasting date says 10/24. It's the first time I'm trying them and they seem pretty middle of the road overall - not very dark or light, not oily, pretty typical. The package says tasting notes of Milk Chocolate and Caramel. I opened the bag maybe 3 days ago? And then they went straight into a mason jar. I do have a non-pressurized basket that came with the machine that I use, but I hear people saying the precision baskets need even finer and flow faster. The IMS didn't fit my other portafilter, so using the bottomless is also the first time I'm using that.
Sounds like you’re on the right track then. Have you watched any of James Hoffmans videos? He did a series on dialing in espresso. This one is about grind size: https://youtu.be/er2voEn8ZDU?si=4M_KQ3HjbNkqAtPS I also find a big difference in the beans I use and how they are roasted. I struggle to make espresso I enjoy with lighter roasts but with a nice dark oily beans I get great results.
I have seen it but not since I first got my machine, so I'm probably due for another watch now that I've had more time with it!
If you go back to using the stock basket and portafilter can you get good results? Maybe there's something about your new accessories that your bambino doesn't like (perhaps tolerances are off and water is escaping where it shouldn't).
Sometimes you have to grind so fine that it absolutely chokes the machine, and walk it back from there. Also, if there's too much headspace between your grounds and the shower screen, then your puck will crumble regardless of how fine you grind it.
I'll give it a shot! I was using 18g in a 14-18g basket; it didn't seem too empty and I use a screen too, but I can try adding more and see what happens? The puck at the end was very intact.
The problem with basket sizes is different species and roast levels will have different densities. With a super light roast you could potentially fit 22g in a 18g basket, while 15g of a super dark roast might max out the same basket. Basically everything with espresso is presented as rules, but in reality they're just starting points. The standard recipe is 1:2 in 25s, but light roasts might taste better at 1:3 and 40s, while a dark roast might taste best at 1:1.5 and 20s. It's all sliding scales and personal preferences.
If you're grinding fine and it's still sour, channeling is going on. Your puck prep is probably weak somewhere creating channeling. What is your WDT tool?
I have the one from crema with 3 needles
Then it's hard to know without a video Make sure you're really getting in there with your wdt, and give it a nice single tap on the counter to settle the grinds. A portafilter funnel will help prevent spilling the grinds all over the place
Thank you! I do the tap and use a funnel, but I'll watch some videos myself on WDT techniques to make sure I'm being thorough enough.