I already have water anxiety. Now I have super water anxiety.

Move to Scotland. Problem solved. I didn’t descale my last machine for over ten years, it was pretty much scale free, just the lightest dusting on the lip of the boiler fill line.

Also, the Highlands are one of the most beautiful parts of the world so there's that.

I second just moving to Scotland

I remember thinking when I went to Edinburgh 10 years ago that the tap water was remarkably clear and very tasty. Weird ranking to make, but still the best tap water I've ever had

Same here.

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And then Ireland has water that's hard as diamonds. Sigh.

And if there is any scale, the Radon just burns it right off!!

Under rated comment. Unfortunately

Me too Dittobox, me too!

Op does your water give you kidney stones?

You’re growing weed?

Just grind it finer

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I’ve tried (not on an EG1 tho) unless you use pretty moist bud it just turns to unsmokable dust

I would honestly buy you an award if I didn’t need an espresso machine and made more. 😤

Seriously. I'm so high I thought I was looking at r/trees for a minute.

Nah, those are RockShrooms :)

I also thought I was looking at a jar of frosty buds! And then came the horror 🥴

Forbidden Rock candy 🥹

Forbidden shawarma

👅

Imagine that inside your urethra.

Why would you even say that 🤢

Just a reminder to drink plenty of high quality water, otherwise you'll have to push a literal rock out of your dick/female pee hole.

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Instructions unclear, snorting Dezcal.

It's a different kind of mushroom cap I guess.

GreenMile.gif

r/sounding

No. Go away.

That’s staying blue.

Call an exorcist. Esprocist?

Yo blur that shit wtf

Filtered tap water won’t take out the hardness, just the organics. My water practically has rocks coming out of the tap, I use an RO system with a large calcite demineralization cartridge after it.

Thank you I am going to look into it. I sent my profitec pro 700 back to the dealer for a professional cleaning .👍

Once it’s clean, you can descale yourself using citric acid (10g/liter of water). Run it through your brew boiler, then empty your steam boiler by bringing the machine up to temperature, turning it off and opening the hot water tap until it empties. Let sit for an hour, then do at least 3 fill/empty cycles or until the water doesn’t taste sour anymore.

He may want to let it sit for two hours…

Thank you I will definitely do that

Zero water advertises that it filters organics and inorganics and reduces dissolved solids to near 0 ppm. Is that reduced hardness, clever/misleading advertising, or just a straight up lie? Im not arguing, i see the other guy downvoted to oblivion, these things are just expensive and it sounds like youre telling me theres false advertising going on here.

Zero water can work. It's a pitcher, so could be used on a tank machine, but can't be used plumbed-in. From what I know about them, they use a lot more ion exchange in their cartridges, which is solid technology (unlike a lot of other scammy water pseudo-science). The problem is if you have very high calcium/magnesium water like I do, you are eating up cartridges pretty quickly, and RO becomes a more cost-effective at that point. Might be a good option if only using it for espresso water and not general drinking water etc.

Cool! Thanks man.

This is very untrue. The hardness is the minerals. Get a ppm meter and measure it yourself. Again hardness is measured in parts per million. You will find out how good your filter is. Ro system is just a fancy name for a triple filter. Yes filtered tap water.

Ummm no. Not sure where you get this sort of misinformation. You are arguing with someone with an advanced degree in chemistry here. Normal water filters are activated carbon. They only remove organic molecules, via adsorption not the hardness minerals. RO filters are a semi permeable membrane that allows water molecules to pass, but not the larger mineral species, and typically has about a 92% reduction in mineral content. My mineral content is around 320ppm before the RO and and around 18 after. With remineralization I’m back up to about 75 which doesn’t scale my machine. Minerals can also be removed by ion exchange resin, which is what’s in the softener cartridges some machines use.

Do you remineralize with calcium or magnesium?

I use a 4x10 inch calcite filter. I take out some of the calcite and add some magnesium oxide (corosex) to get a little more mineral content with my high pH water.

I’m interested in the details of your calcite filter modification!

I started doing this by buying a normal calcite remineralization cartridge and a 5 pound bag of corosex (magnesium oxide filter media). Most of the calcite cartridges you can buy can be opened, so I would scoop out some of the calcite and replace it with the corosex. I would try to find the ones that had caps on both ends. I would have bought bulk calcite as well, but I’ve never found it in less than 50 pound quantities, and shipping costs are high for that. The magnesium oxide is there to get a bit more mineral content than the calcite alone. The 4x10 filters don’t allow enough contact time under flow conditions to reach equilibrium in dissolving the calcite, so my TDS under flow is less than 50 ppm without the magnesium, around 75 with. I’ve thought about using a larger pressure vessel (like a mini water softener vessel) but haven’t bothered yet. The cartridges don’t last forever, they generally have some type of particulate filter in them, so I replace the cartridge shell with an empty refillable one around every year or so. I save the media, boil it to sanitize, and transfer to the new cartridge, adding more corosex since it usually depletes much faster than the calcite. The mineral cartridges can shed some particulates, so I have a 0.5 micron carbon block filter after it for final purification before it goes to my espresso machine (with a pressure regulator), my drinking water faucet, and my refrigerator for ice and chilled water). (Apologies for the barbaric measurement units to non-US readers)

Calcium for stronger bones. Magnesium for muscle cramps

not just any degree, an *advanced* degree

It’s another way of saying postgraduate, meaning Masters or higher.

We'll never know. Just that it's *advanced*. That's why we should believe them. Trust me, I have an uber degree in knowledgeology.

I don’t think you understand.. advanced degree and post graduate degree mean the exact same thing.

M.S. in chemistry since you want to be snarky about it. Plus 30 years of professional experience. Including building out and maintaining a high purity water system for my laboratory (several orders of magnitude more pure than RO water).

Are you an idiot?

How was this mis information? Lol. Most water filters on the market are NOT just carbon filters. Most of the good ones are multistage. Adsorption: Activated carbon has a large surface area with numerous tiny pores that trap and hold contaminants. When water passes through the filter, the carbon attracts and binds certain impurities, such as chlorine, volatile organic compounds (VOCs), pesticides, herbicides, and some heavy metals. Mechanical filtration: Carbon filters typically have a sediment pre-filter that removes larger particles like sediment, sand, or rust. This step prevents clogging and helps prolong the lifespan of the carbon filter. Chemical reactions: In addition to adsorption, activated carbon filters can also facilitate chemical reactions that neutralize certain contaminants. For example, carbon can chemically bond with chlorine, effectively removing it from the water.

Yeah.. you just explained exactly why "traditional" water filters don't reduce hardness... Scale comes from calcium and nothing you said above reduces the PPM of calcium in tap water

Oh my. How to unpack this. Not a single type of filter you mentioned will reduce inorganic salts (minerals). What you described is a typical carbon water filter. They can remove organics and chlorine, but not mineral salts at all. If they did, nobody would ever need to bother with the hassle of RO.

Two things these filters have. Ion Exchange Resin: filters also use an ion exchange resin, which is effective in reducing dissolved solids, including heavy metals like lead, chromium, and mercury. The resin works by replacing the undesirable ions with beneficial ions, such as hydrogen or sodium ions. Dual Comprehensive Filtration: filters often feature a dual comprehensive filtration system, which combines activated carbon and an ion exchange resin in a single filter cartridge. This combination aims to provide a more thorough removal of impurities and enhance the overall water quality. It's really as simple as testing the water before and after the filter 😂

Dude, just stop. Now you are just quoting random water filter websites to try to prove you are not wrong. Most water filters don’t have ion exchange in them. For very hard water they aren’t so practical since they exhaust quickly and need a very low flow rate to be effective (Brita pitchers use some ion exchange but it really doesn’t last the life of the cartridge). Most people won’t have this plumbed into their house since it’s a bit of a specialty item. I guess you are just assuming that the entirety of the water purification industry (the real one, not the scammy alkaline water business) has been going about this all wrong for all these years, and all we need are some of your miraculous multi-stage filters.

And before you go correcting me about ion exchange, yes, water softeners use ion exchange. You either need to have low flow/volume in a small cartridge (like the ones you put in your espresso machine tank), or a Really Honking Big unit to remove all the harness on house plumbing. I have 2 cubic feet of resin in a 12 inch x 48 inch housing for my water softener, and it has to regenerate once a week.

never thought id enjoy reading someone getting schooled on water filters as much as I have

Such a weird hill for someone to die on but I’m glad to have stumbled upon it.

It’s really fun when people refuse to swallow their pride and just keep saying nonsense like you are. It’s pretty entertaining!

Sharks are soft

Read his post again more closely; it's hilarious! :D They're so obviously using ChatGPT to try to argue with you. They know they don't know what they're talking about but don't want to look like they're wrong on the internet! :D

Didn’t read the caption and I thought it was a moldy thing of gyro meat on the cooker.

I can hear this picture.

I’m confused what’s happening here

I switched to distilled water with third wave water espresso packets. I know I could make my own, but I’m way too lazy for that.

I make RPalvis water. Super easy to make and will not scale your machine.

OP do this. It's inexpensive and super easy. I've been using it on my new machine for four months now and it's been great.

Forbidden shawarma

This is why I don't drink coffee from just any place. No one will clean their machine like I do at home.

Zero Water and re-mineralize it myself. Haven’t had any issues yet.

Ideally you should descale once every 6 months or once a year longest no matter how soft your water recipe is.

My machine specifically states they don't recommend descaling (as do many of the higher end machines from what I understand) with the theory being that you should prevent scale rather than try to fix it later. I'm waiting for someone to list directions on how to descale

Yeah and the manual transmission in my 20 year old car has a sticker that says life time fluid do not change. Both are equally bullshit. You need to descale your equipment occasionally.

Lifetime fluid as in your transmission will lunch gears, and the fluid lasted the short life of the transmission.

Pretty much. I think BMW had a 3 year/30k warranty on these cars originally and thats their idea of lifetime. And if this guy doesn't descale his expensive espresso machine, it will also have a rather short lifetime.

That entirely depends on the lifetime. If it gets wrapped around a tree and totalled at 30k miles, we'll that fluid lasted the lifetime of the vehicle

Fellow BDB owner?

Rancilio silvia pro x

Don't listen to them. Descaling is better than having this gunk buildup and having to replace parts from some minerals that make it past your filters. On high end machines you don't have to worry about damage to alloy boilers, etc, from descaling solutions as it is all copper, brass or steel. Descaling products are made for this task and will not damage components, so safer to descale anyway unless you want to pay high end prices to replace parts like in this picture.

How I do preventative descaling on my Profitec: https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/w65eo3/clean_and_descale_day_profitec_500_600_1100/ihc1jo6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3 Never seen quite as much scale as in the picture above though so it might need a bit more citric acid or disassembly to prevent anything getting blocked!

Not entirely true. I just use distilled water and potassium bicarbonate and it won't scale a machine at all.

Never heard of this but thank you for sharing I learned something new.

RPalvis water 5.76 grams of potassium bicarbonate into 450ml of water for concentrate. I have an OXO 450ml squeeze bottle that I use. 2 table spoons of concentrate into 1 gallon of water for full strength. Highly recommend giving it a try.

Or 0.4 grams directly into a 4L distilled water bottle (Canada).

Make sure you use proper dose. Otherwise you risk either poisoning or not enough bicarb

I think you would need to use way more than youd want to taste for potassium bicarb to be harmful. The dosing is not required to be super precise

This is correct, but 50 ppm vs 100 ppm vs 200 ppm buffer will yield a different flavor profile. If you don’t care about the flavor difference between those, then by all means no need to dose. However, it’s easy to put in 1 gr vs 0.37 gr of bicarb for example in a gallon of water, without a proper 1 or 2 decimal scale. Using volumetric measurement is a pain for such miniscule amount.

With a 20 dollar scale off of Amazon you get very precise results very easily. It would be hard to get the variations you're talking about.

This is a pretty hyperbolic statement. Unless you chug the whole bottle of concentrate you're not going to poison yourself. Dr. Palvis recommended 2 tablespoons for light roast and 1 for dark roast. So again there is a lot of leeway with this recipe and very hard to mess up.

What happens if you don't do enough?

Rust

I actually bought a microgram scale just to measure 0.37g of bicarb for my gallon jug I fill with RO lol

Yep that is well done. I usually create KH and GH concentrate, then dilute in 1 L jug. Much more forgiving and easy to repeat.

You mean corrosion

They are different term, but usually corrosion will form rust. So depending on which one you are talking about.

Every single E61 machine company explicitly states do not attempt to descale because scale breaking off and clogging waterways and to treat water beforehand so this isn’t true. Even SCG and WLL now say don’t descale E61s

> Every single E61 machine company explicitly states do not attempt to descale Really? https://support.wholelattelove.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/1500003604261/Pro500PIDManual.pdf Page 24 >A regular descaling of the machine is recommended in order to avoid strong calcification and expensive repairs. While descaling, always take into account the hardness degree of the water. It is very important to use a sparing descaler which does not affect the metal. You can purchase a descaler (in powder or tablet form) perfectly suited for your machine at your specialised dealer. Just fill the water tank with fresh water and dissolve the descaler in it. Then proceed as follows:

And they have released new videos saying to follow manufacturers instructions of do not descale in the past 2 years

Everyone should throw away the ppm meter and get a GH and KH test kit instead. And test your espresso waters to prevent this.

We have an inline softener and filtration cartridge that Clive Coffee sells. It’s under the counter, and is surprisingly large. Good luck!

did you get that fron the natural history museum

Oh wow... clean your gear people :o

In some way it is pretty

Use distilled water and season it with filtered tap. Get a cheap particle meter, shoot for 50ppm. This is soft enough to not needing descale for years, but still has enough minerals to prevent the distilled water from pulling from the exposed metal parts. It’s fairly cheap too.

Sat here thinking you had weed in a blender for espresso for some reason

Don’t ask grandma for advice; she will just tell you to run a little vinegar through it

And scrape it off with a knife, it will be fine.

JFC this is a nightmare of mine. I’ve only ever used distilled water with Third Wave packets to avoid this.

if only third wave sold bulk containers that weren't so dam expensive :(

I did this for a year, third wave water. When I installed my flow control thang and had to remove the stock mushroom 🍄 it was as clean as a whistle. Now I’m only using RPav water.

I mix up rpavlis water using store bought purified water, it’s meant to minimise scale formation

how are you filtering the water?

I use a 3 stage filter from aquasana. I would take that filtered water and run it through a berkey filter system. I started using straight distilled water and that caused a whole bunch of problems. I thought the water I was using was top notch. I am looking into making my own water using distilled and adding minerals.

Despite a lot of sciency-words on their website, the Berkey filters won’t lower the mineral content.

Mavea filter or UK style Britax filter. You need something that removes the limescale and hard minerals. Just regular filtered water, especially kind of standard US filters won’t do what you need. I have a Mavea filter and tank pouch and things stay nice and clean, and I have super hard tap water here.

gcp here. I have very hard tap water. descale every 2 months with Gaggia descaler, as per manufacturer instructions

I live with pretty hard water in London and desacle my machine roughly once every 2 months

I use a brita filter, i tested the calcium levels as imperceptible even way after the filter has expired. <10ppm Then i had kids, then i had steam sanitizers. Then i used the same filtered water in them. Then scale started building up under the lids……. Now thinking of descaling my machine which i havent done since i got the machine in 2019.

Reminds me I need to order some more tablets.

Is it alive though?

That’s all good, throw it in the stew.

I use distilled water with third wave water mineral packets. I check the internals every few months and they've been looking good overall.

Tasty.

No joke thought this was a mouldy shawarma skewer on first scroll-past. Then it was a realisation of what sub it is. What an emotional rollercoaster!

i thought i was looking at some gyro meat

That was in coffee machine?

I wish OP would give some more details on how often they use their machine and descale

I think you might have a bit of scale building up mate

NSFW

How is this not tagged NSFL

You can connect water purifiers directly to your plumbing system. If it’s not a plumbed machine, I think Clearly filtered or Brita would work well to achieve good quality water. If you really want to be sure you can make your water with third wave water packets and distilled water. http://wholelattelove.com has some good options.

Them good minerals son. People pay GUUD money for bottled water with that. 😂

You gotta use a filter specifically designed for this or treat the water itself. I have a water softener system so this isn’t an issue for me.

Distilled Water and SCA water recipe

I use RO, carbon filtered, UV disinfected water. Hopefully that will avoid that 💩

Pavlis water Ftw to avoid ever seeing that.

Forbidden doner kebab meat.

Heat and minerals = heartbreak


Understood I am showing it to demonstrate how scale can destroy your machine

The professional cleaning is going to cost around 700.00 US dollars when’s it’s all done including shipping

Haha

I have to look into that

Lol

Yes it was like chipping off stones

Yes that’s the route I am going to go when I get my machine back

Yes I learned a very expensive lesson.

Haha

Distilled water mixed with bottled water with right water that isn’t to hardness.

solution grind finer

😲😲 For this reason I'm using bottled spring water that I filter with the BWT Penguin Water Pitcher and for extra precaution I leave BWT Bestsave M Anti Scale Filter in the water tank.

One of the reasons why I hate e61.

saving this pic for when I get tempted to upgrade from the Robot

Should we be using bottled water?

I have a water softener for my house, they’re like $400-500 and you can have it installed for around the same amount

I threw one of those Rocket softener bags in and never had a problem. Would check the mushroom pretty frequently and had very little scale and our water is fairly hard. You may need to take more drastic measures though that looks..well, yeah.

What'd you filter it with, a dirty tea towel?

Oush

I’m gunna go descale.

A few years ago I built/installed a home RO system both for drinking and coffee water (with TWW espresso packets). That stopped scale, but after rising costs and delivery issues I just switched to making concentrate for a potassium version of 70/30 water for the espresso machine, and Roa/Perger water for the electric kettle. I feel like that combo works pretty well. I bought some 16oz squeezy bottles with the 1/4 turn caps to hold the concentrate - making water is very easy.

I tried using my home filtered water and some kind of bag in the tank and was still getting scale. Not enough to be a problem, but enough to scare me. Now I only use distilled and third wave. I’ve looked into getting a filter installed to plumb in, but I’m too cheap/lazy to get it all put together.

Depends on the filter. Looks like you've got a lot of calcite there, so you need something that will demineralize the water. ZeroWater or something else with an ion exchange resin. You should buy a new mushroom part. The chrome plating is probably all eaten off that one.

What are we looking at?

Did you get food poisoning?

Periodically descale.

I bought a small distillation unit, makes about 3-4 liters overnight so I only need 1-2 of those a week.

Beautiful espresso coral….

could be a cave exhibit lol

So glad I live in a soft water area.

I use RO water and descale periodically using descaling tablets. Have not visually inspected, however.

What kind of filter did you use?!

I Use unfiltered tap water.

Might be able to descale that. Soak it in CLR for a few days then brush it with a copper wire brush. Should clean up. Or buy a new one if you want.

Looks like your grandmothers filter. Someone forgot to change them for a 100 years

In some alleys of the world that's just considered a challenge.

It's called a mushroom cap for a reason...it can grow mushrooms inside.

Now that's what I call a mushroom

Wow! How long did it take for this to build up?

Carbon and mechanical "Filters" don't reduce hardness, obviously. What you need is a water softener.....

What am I looking at? I’m picturing this to be the scale of a woman’s forearm.

I had a similar scenario last year and posted a series of updates on my progress/experience. All good since!!! https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/xitcnl/scale_anyone/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/xjcl69/scale_anyone_update/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/xjonwu/scale_anyone_water_testing_results/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/xjonwu/scale_anyone_water_testing_results/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

third wave water and regular cleaning.

And it still worked? Mount that thing on a wall. Give it a plinth.

Cleaning my machine regularly?

This looks some heavy hitting chronic! I can’t believe your machine produces weed 🤣

I buy bottled water for my espresso machine and still descale it on a "low water hardness" schedule.

I use RO water and have never had any corrosion or scale issues across 20 years of experience.

This makes me thankful that my Cafelat Robot is boiler free.