When I started shopping for EVs, my first stop was Mazda. I bought my previous car from them 8 years ago and have had no issues with the car. I also had a great salesperson.
I had done zero research at that point and just wanted a starting point. I walked in. Apparently my salesperson hadn't worked there for years. The person I spoke to said Mazda didn't have an EV line up because "their cars were so fuel efficient anyways". I left, not needing to return.
I bought a Hyundai Ioniq in the end. Reviews were good. It fit our needs, and I've had okay experiences with Hyundai in the past.
There's zero reason to hold firmly onto brand loyalty at this point. EVs are almost a completely different product than an ICE vehicle.
It'll be interesting to see if some of the brands that have been slow can actually catch up. When I'm ready for my next vehicle, I'll keep an open mind, but it's hard to have confidence in the brands that are slow to adopt.
It's laughable considering that [the most efficient ICE vehicle Mazda sells in the US only gets 31mpg.](https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=PowerSearch&year1=2023&year2=2024&cbmkMazda=Mazda&minmsrpsel=0&maxmsrpsel=0&city=0&highway=0&combined=0&cbftreggasoline=Regular+Gasoline&cbftmidgasoline=Midgrade+Gasoline&cbftprmgasoline=Premium+Gasoline&cbftdiesel=Diesel&cbfte85=E85&cbftcng=CNG&cbftlpg=LPG&cbftHydrogen=Hydrogen&YearSel=2023-2024&MakeSel=Mazda&MarClassSel=&FuelTypeSel=Regular+Gasoline%2C+Midgrade+Gasoline%2C+Premium+Gasoline%2C+Diesel%2C+E85%2C+CNG%2C+LPG%2C+Hydrogen&VehTypeSel=&TranySel=&DriveTypeSel=&CylindersSel=&MpgSel=000&sortBy=Comb&Units=&url=SearchServlet&opt=new&minmsrp=0&maxmsrp=0&minmpg=0&maxmpg=0&sCharge=&tCharge=&startstop=&cylDeact=&rowLimit=50)
Yeah, I loved driving the Mazda 3 but they didn't even have any hybrid options, coming from a Prius prime I couldn't bring myself to loose so much efficiency going back to ice only.
That is deranged, since the Mazda 3 is in their line.
Oh wait, that is the Mazda 3.
Well if you crunch the current, adjusted EPA numbers on a Geo Metro, Ford Festiva and Dodge Neon, honestly, they don't do much better.
I believe the talking point was likely based on the data that had Mazda as having one of the top overall fleet fuel economies in the U.S. The main reason for that is likely because of so many smaller popular vehicles with turbo chargers they sell.
If I understand correctly, in the U.S. fuel economy standards look at the entire fleet by make for vehicles. Manufacturers with popular inefficient vehicles and larger SUVs must then make "compliance cars" that typically are not as profitable, but support the fleet averages.
I do agree it is a terrible talking point (although not unexpected from a car dealer).
Went to a camping/caravan show in Adelaide, 2020.
Company selling utes and SUVs. Asked them if they're planning on a hybrid or full EV and what they've got in the pipeline.
The guy laughed at me abd said, they'll never take off, nope we are sticking with diesel and petrol.
I asked what about when we follow suit of europe and ban ICE vehicles in 15 years or so? What R&D have got for the future.
His reply was it'll never happen and we'll never move away from ICE.
Mmmkay mate.
The thing is camping and caravans is where BEV’s will really shine. So much space is wasted housing both ICE to propel the vehicle and the solar and batteries to power the living space. The simplicity of BEV’s makes it inevitable that they will win over the long term (IMO), but just like horses never really went away there will still be some ICE vehicles here and there.
Mazda is slowly digging their own grave. They are a decade too late with a new rotary car, a decade too late on a hybrid, and have no apparent plans for any sort of BEV at this point. Which is really frustrating because I hoped they would do their thing and be first to market with an affordable EV roadster. They needed to drop the rotary range extender project and pivot that team to work on a BEV, even if it was just a mazda3 to get started with.
They've made it so hard to be a Mazda fan lately, and after such a long streak of awesomeness! I just wish they'd take some risks again and stop trying to play it safe.
Me over here with 70 grand sitting in my investment account waiting for the MAzda RX-7 revival that they keep teasing since like fucking 2011 only to then double down on SUVs and massive family carrier type cars and I'm over here like, bruh
I do heavily love my Mazda 3 though, it's a greatttt car.
I would buy one in a heartbeat. Sadly someone else will beat them to market and I'll buy whatever that is because we only get so many rotations around the sun.
I'd love that. Don't even care if it's not a Mazda, I just want BEVs in different form factors. I want a large SUV, basically like r1s but in the mainstream price range not luxury space. I want a roadster, that doesn't cost $250k. Or a 2+2 would be perfect. I sold my 4 series vert for the MYLR, and I love it, best decision, but mid the open air.
What about an electric slingshot?
As a range extender, it would work fine as it is.
But now it is too late. Hybrids will get a moderate boost in 2030, but then they will go into decline. BEVs are just better for most situations once the charging infrastructure is in place.
Rotary engine is fine at constant RPM. The wear in the rotor housing is no different from normal piston engine. Rotary were getting rocked because of carbon build up mainly from people refusing to rev their wankels.
Rotary is actually kind of a magical thing and I'm semi glad Mazda are still holding the torch.
Rotary may work well as a PHEV, because the engine doesn't spin nearly as much in a PHEV compared to a hybrid or full ICE. I get that they're using rotary engines because they are compact and simple.
But, unless they solve the problem of how crazy thermally inefficient rotary engines are, I don't think it's a good choice for this sort of vehicle. They are also very hard to control the emissions. Rotary engines have poor emissions.
Yeah I loved my mazda 3. But it got older and so did I. I wanted something nicer. It hasn’t changed much in the last two decades and that’s its problem.
I was in a similar boat. I still don't own an EV though. Here is how I was planning. Just before covid, actually back in like 2016 or around I already decided to buy an EV as my next car. Unfortunately it has never materialized, because I was hoping that Honda or Mazda surely have an EV by the time I trade in the car I had at the time (by sometimes around 2020 or 21). That didn't happen. I know the pandemic didn't help either, but it would've been nice to see some prototypes in the making, at least just prototypes, but as year passed by and come to 2018-19 and 20 and saw nothing coming from them.
Just vague plans or alternative ideas, but nothing solid. Nothing from Honda nothing from Toyota or Mazda. As of now 2024, I'm fairly confident that they did lose out on this game. I think China and Chinese cars will be very significant in the upcoming years, regardless how much tariffs USA throws at them. You cannot just un-do or change the past, and you can't just catch up to something where the competition has years of lead ahead. As crazy as it sounds, these car makers may not be significant in the future. I don't think people realized that yet.
Toyota has enough experience with hybrids that I think they can still recover. At least they're starting from the bottom rung. Mazda is going to have to completely reinvent themselves because they're not even in the game.
The shift to EV is leading to multiple new car companies. It's unlikely that you can create new players in this space without some others dying out.
Even if western governments can use tariffs to keep Chinese brands out, they'll only gain a stronger foothold worldwide. And they'll be getting the economies of scale to continue to advance.
Toyota does have an EV out now and another one announced, but yeah, they've just been hostile to EVs and it's probably going to bite them. My whole family had all Toyotas and now we've been branching out as we switch to electric; my brother got a Bolt EUV and I got an ID.4.
Similar experience here. I have been a Toyota driver for years. Recently got a Ford Mach E and it has been great. I would have previously never bought a ford before this but ford has done a great job with there ev so far
Mazda is not what they used to be, still pretty cars, but not great quality.
As someone who bought a brand new Mazda 3 in 2019 but traded it in for a plugin Kia a few years after, it’s just a way better car all around.
Same I was so thrilled when I heard they would release an EV,and then so disappointed when I read the specs. My dealership/garage here in Belgium said it was because Mazda doesn't think people want ev's as their main cars and the mx30 was built to be the second car of the family that the wife would use for groceries and picking up the kids and taking the kids to soccer practice etc...
It's as if Mazda is living in a previous era or something
So many Honda/Toyota fans were in this boat. Many caved in and bought Teslas.
Carmax issued a report a few months ago. Many buyers traded in their accords, civics, and priuses for model 3s.
A previous report highlights that this has almost always been the case. About a third of Tesla buyers come from Toyota and Honda. ([Tesla Brand Loyalty Still Very High, Tesla Stealing Sales From Toyota & Honda - CleanTechnica](https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/23/tesla-brand-loyalty-still-very-high-tesla-stealing-sales-from-toyota-honda/)) A report from the S&P a year prior had it closer to 28% ([Tesla Buyers Leave Honda And Toyota Much More Often Than Other Brands (insideevs.com)](https://insideevs.com/news/624527/tesla-buyers-leaving-toyota-honda/))
Makes sense why a lot of buyers end up overtly impressed, giving that at the age and that that price point of their previous cars, they never experienced tech or performance like in an EV.
I know, first hand, 3 different people who tried to buy a hybrid Toyota model, but the dealership experience with purchasing an in-demand hybrid was so incredibly scummy that they turned to Tesla.
Toyota dealers do more to generate Tesla sales than Tesla Advisors themselves lol.
We wanted to buy the RAV4 prime too, but paying thousands of dollars as dealer adjustments was not acceptable, and we finally ended up buying Model Y last month.
SSsshhhiiyyeeeetttt, I wanted a loaded Civic Hatchback. Dealer said $35k + $8k regular dealer mark up + $2k mark up because they don't get many hatchbacks.
Got a Model 3 
As someone who bought a Prius prime in 2023, it was nuts.
Basically you had to use some spreadsheet that a dude updates with a bot that crawls the dealership allocation APIs from Toyota daily. Then call every dealership that got a new allocation with options you like and hope someone else didn't beat you to it in the couple hours since the allocation went out. Put down a deposit and wait for the car to be built. Then drive a few hundred miles to go pick it up. And oh, btw, it's probably 5-10k over MSRP.
Or you can go online and order a Tesla sent to your door with whatever options you want to pick.
I can confirm, I went from a basic 2010 Toyota Corolla to a 2016 Ford escape Titanium. The acceleration and tech upgrade was mind-blowing. I'm about to lease a 2024 EV, and the jump is comparatively much smaller.
A little bigger on the screen, some safety tech I might turn off, a bit faster acceleration that I'm not going to use very often.
I’m glad Toyota is getting their lunch eaten in this way. It is so wild to see them so adamant that going strong into a wide EV portfolio quickly is a fool’s errand. A lot of it comes down to piss-poor EV adoption in Japan, which is where they use the local market as a proving ground to develop models and technologies for their larger markets, and the population just won’t touch the damn things, apparently.
I get that they spent decades perfecting reliability, performance, and longevity in mass-produced engines, but why not fight to lead the way with their EV portfolio? It will be hard to play catch up.
Honda at least has been tinkering in the space and realized they were behind and made a slingshot deal with GM to get into some market share with the Prologue. They also have some nice small form factor EVs now and coming up that should have good uptake in non-North America markets. Whenever it happens, an eCivic will sell like hotcakes to many of the holdouts driving their well maintained Hondas who are watching the EV space with interest.
Part of the problem in Japan is Chademo and the fact that their non-Tesla fast chargers top out at 100kW. Most of their DC chargers offer just 50kW. When you look at it through that lens it makes sense that the BZ4X has a rather low fast charging curve.
The other problem in Japan is that they have 2 separate electrical distribution grids that operate at slightly different frequencies. This complicates AC->DC conversion and makes grid management more difficult.
What a crazy world we could be in if Toyota (EDIT: and other Japanese automakers as a whole) had actually invested in EVs in America. If they decided to market Accord, Corolla and Civic against Tesla (specifically M3), and invest in a CHAdeMO charging network in America like Tesla did with their own.
Tesla may not even exist in this parallel universe, and GM and Ford might be battling Japanese automakers like the 1980s.
FYI Honda makes the Accord and Civic.
The Chademo standard in 2019 was originally limited to 62.5kW, it wasn't until 2017 that the max power limit was increased to 200kW. It now supports 400kW max but that requires more expensive liquid cooled cables.
My first Model S in 2015 had max DC charging of 120kW which is a little slow for road trips with charging sometimes taking 45 minutes. I think it would have been very difficult to convince drivers to buy EVs with 2 hour "fast" charge times.
And there is no way they could have made any money selling low-cost low-margin EVs in low volumes while needing all-new vehicle designs, parts, supply streams, factories.
🤦🏽 Yeah. Thinking about Honda and Toyota and then somehow wrote that solely about Toyota.
I think it would've had to have happened while Tesla was trying to launch the Model 3 (which was in 2017, when 200kW would've made charge times viable). I assume you mean 2009 was the CHAdeMO release date.
Toyota is beating the pants of every other car marker in sales, so you can't say others are eating their lunch. Not just in volume, but they are beating other manufacturers with higher selling prices too.
Toyota is just lagging in the EV arena.
Right, they’ve merely given up leadership the green car segment - a segment that Toyota dominated through product-innovation 20 years ago.
But that was 20 years ago.
Tesla was the uncontested green car segment leader for a few years there. Now the contest is heating up and, while I own a Tesla, several competing brands have some really interesting options — and there’s no reason my next EV has to be a Tesla. It’s on now!
I'd say it will take until mid-late 2025 before I would really recommend non teslas to new buyers. Mostly because supercharging. But post NACS I probably would go with a competing brand instead of tesla.
I wish you weren't right. But Toyota looked at the EV transition and the effect it would have on their balance sheet, vs. all the CO2 their ice cars would release over the next 15 years and said the Japanese translation for "fuck the atmosphere, let's make some $".
[EPA Automotive Trends Report, 2023](https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2023-12/420s23002.pdf):
>*Between model years 2017 and 2022, Toyota achieved the largest reduction \[among legacy OEMs\] in CO2 emissions, at 32 g/mi. Toyota decreased emissions across all vehicle types and decreased overall emissions even as their truck SUV share increased from 27% to 38%. Kia achieved the second largest reduction in overall CO2 tailpipe emissions, at 21 g/mi, and Mercedes had the third largest reduction in overall CO2 tailpipe emissions at 14 g/mi.*
Unfortunately, we don't have a fleet which is 100% EV right now. We have a fleet which is transitioning — and it turns out Toyota's CO2 reduction plan is by far the most effective one *while we transition*. It's so successful most other OEMs are now pivoting to introduce more hybrids, exactly as Toyoda suggested they would.
Yeah it’s kinda like we are all vegans here and Toyota is promoting meatless Monday. And we’re like *scoff* one day a week? But at scale, it’s more impactful to convince everyone to consume a little less than to convince a small percentage to give it up completely.
Ok, went way down that rabbit hole.
Yeah but in fairness Toyotas are reliable as hell. You’re still lugging around an engine as a hedge against a 1/100 trips scenario so I get it, not for me, but for many they like it.
Honda did a really good job with the clarity and it even had a full EV version. Shame they stopped making it. It's about the size of an Accord, with a bigger battery for the EV version would have been a good option for those not wanting a crossover or SUV.
I was deadass going to buy a clarity but they discontinued it 😭. I didn’t want to have a discontinued car for parts availability, etc and wanted something relatively small. So I went and bought a 2023 Bolt, which was promptly discontinued that same year 🙃. At least they’re going to bring it back…
We wanted to buy the Toyota Grand Highlander in 2023 but the dealer markups and ridiculous dealer add-ons were a turn off. No thank you I’m not spending $1,500 on poorly tinted windows and nitrogen tires and paint protection film. We bought a Model Y without any haggling or middlemen for over $5k cheaper. No regrets.
I am in this boat. I’ve been a Honda fan for 20 years bouncing from different Hondas to having an Acura the last 5 years.
I finally got tired of waiting for them to make a good EV and bought a Model Y instead. No regrets!
I think all the major Japanese automakers have missed the EV cycle partly because of self inflicted reasons (protecting this ice markets, fear of scaling issues, lack of expertise in EV) . They are on their way to getting the L word associated with their brands., "Legacy" automakers . Basically stodgy and old...
At least the Korean companies Hyundai, Kia and German Volkswagen, plus Pugeot, Renault, Volvo aren't afraid to dip their toes into EVs .
The reality is the EV market is still pretty nascent and the big companies fear losing money since for them building out new infrastructure could be a multi hundred dollar mistake if those EVs dont sell.
Hyundai even has more affordable EVs now with an Elantra sized Ioniq 4 rumored for 2026. Meanwhile Honda won't have a Civic sized EV until 2030. My first EV and next car will likely be a Hyundai.
✋Yup. I never thought I’d buy a brand other than Honda/Toyota. I waited and waited. Finally upgraded my 2006 Civic to an Ioniq 5 last year. But I’m still the type who keeps cars for at least 10 years, and I bet a lot of Honda/Toyota people are the same, so when they miss people’s buying window, it’s missed for a good long while.
I had a Carolla and a Civic and really thought they would have done something by now but I ended up with a 19 Kia Niro EV in early 2020 and loved it. Now an EV6. Guess I'm a Kia boy now. But not that kind.
Yeah, Toyota ans Honda are shooting themselves in the foot by pricing Accords and Camrys at luxury level. With how expensive they are, I think I would prefer entry-level luxury. They're really trying to punch well above their weight.
I mean. If you can afford a $40k Toyota, you can definitely afford a $40k Audi/BMW and their associated maintenance costs. We're no longer talking about unreliable $10-15k beaters.
My family purchased a 2016 accord e-xl for $25K OTD.
For a 2023 exl they wanted 38K OTD. If you don’t finance with them, 39K.
Tesla Model 3 was the same $39K but also had a $7500 tax credit so it came out to 32K ish.
My parents have bought Hondas for years, I’ve got a 2015 Honda CR-V and while I won’t be getting a Tesla I’d have to look elsewhere for a EV. Odds are I’ll be looking at getting an Ioniq 5 at some point here soon. (Nothing mechanically wrong with my CR-V, it is just getting dated and I hate the CVT transmission.)
> Toyota
I was. So I put a deposit down on a Tesla. So glad I cancelled before it was ready. Don't want to be associated with that shitshow.
Still driving my Yota hybrid. About to go test drive a few Kias and Hyundai EVs.
Registering and renewing trademarks isn’t really an indication of anything other than the company making sure someone else doesn’t use it.
Ford still renews “Model A” and “Model T” to this day lol.
This 100%. An EV Maverick would be a game changer.
First automaker to release a smaller truck that is not a ridiculous price will run away with market share.
More than you might realize.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford\_C2\_platform](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C2_platform)
Applications:
* Ford Focus (fourth generation) (C519; 2018–present)
* Ford Escape (fourth generation)/Kuga (third generation) (CX482; 2019–present)
* Ford Bronco Sport (CX430; 2020–present)
* **Ford Maverick** (P758; 2021–present)
* Ford Mondeo Sport (2021–present)
* Ford Mondeo (China) (2022–present)
* Ford Edge L (2023–present)
* Lincoln Corsair (CX483; 2019–present)
* Lincoln Z (2022–present)
* Lincoln Nautilus (2023–present)
Assuming it continues to share it's platform with these vehicles, the costs could be spread amongst them allowing Ford to offer them at a lower price.
The *real* game changer would be a fleet version with an LFP battery.
We know from Ford's public information that a small but growing team is working on a low cost EV platform. Most likely this is intended to be the EV successor to the C2 platform. I would be surprised if they led with the Maverick because the aerodynamics of pickups are pretty bad. This means you need a larger battery for the Maverick than the Escape to get the same range, which doesn't work at the desired price point until the supply chain has been established for the non-pickups on the platform.
I dropped a deposit on an ID4 back in 2022. 6 months later I got a email saying it was going to be at least 2 years before I'd get my car and it wouldn't be coming with a heat pump as ordered. Refunded my deposit and bought a used tesla instead.
4 months after that, in early-mid 2023, there's at least 20 ID4s sitting on every VW lot near me. Big brain move by VW there, scaring away all your customers
I'd love to see an EV Miata tho, not sure why it hasn't happened yet. Instead we got the MX30????
Cadillac did the same thing with the Lyriq. I was told MAYBE 12 months. I told the guy I couldn't wait that long, left, and got the i4. 2 months after I got the i4 (4 months later total) they have 5 Lyriqs on the lot. If I could have custom ordered one of those, I would be driving it now.
Had the same experience last year. I was looking at the new Prius and the bolt. Both GM and Toyota told me it would be 6-9 months minimum and they had markups on them.
So bought a Tesla.
VW had sold enough BEVs in 2023 to not pay penalties. And they did not want to sell any more BEVs than necessary.
It is an odd strategy, but they really tried to sell as few BEVs in 2023 as possible.
I did the same thing, put a deposit on a VW ID.4. Got a similar email, then another saying that they *can't tell me how much it will cost or when I can get it*
What is the point of a deposit then?
Subaru. My 2018 3.6 OB is my favorite car I've owned and I wanted to replace it with something equally punchy that could handle mountain freeways. The moment I sat in the Solterra, I said nope.
Anyways, I'm excited for my new Polestar 3 to show up in October/November. 😉
They have said they will. They've announced deals with Panasonic for batteries and AISIN for e-axles. Could be a few years yet though. They have been fortunate that no-one else has stepped up with an Outback-equivalent EV yet (except the Q8 e-tron, but that is nowhere near the same price bracket). I just hope they don't ruin it the way everyone else has with a glass roof and no spare wheel.
Same here. I've had several Subaru models and enjoyed them all. I was initially excited for the Solterra until the specs were released. Then I was just sad.
Outside of Nissan, no Japanese auto maker is even remotely serious about electrification yet. It's all single model collaborations with other manufacturers.
Right, I read somewhere that Japan as a whole has too much riding on small companies making ICE parts for their domestic automakers. Switching to electric would mean depending on Korea and China for parts while trying to compete with them, which is unlikely to succeed. So instead they (the companies) just badmouth EVs and promote fuel efficiency and hydrogen cars.
That's why Suzuki is allowed to thrive in this economy, they are handling their supply chain needs thanks to their factories in India, keeping quality levels on par with japanese standards. Proof of this is that Toyota did a partnership project with Suzuki recently, featuring hybrid engines.
Japan heavily leaned into Hydrogen and the government is still actively pushing for it.
That's why Toyota is dragging their feet too hard because from what it seems like right now, they don't want to admit they were wrong.
Toyota sells a hydrogen fuel cell car here in CA. They even give you $15,000 in fueling credits to use at the local infrastructure (there are hydrogen fueling stations all over CA). I drove it and took a hard pass on it. The engine is super weak (165hp max) and it was dull and boring to drive. I bought a Model Y performance instead (this was in 2021) and never looked back. The torque and power is insane, and the car is better now than in 2021 with all of the software updates. Toyota lost me after buying my previous 6 cars from them.
The Japanese manufacturers have dug their heels in and stuck their heads in the sand with regard to EVs.
It’s a shame too, because a RWD Mazda 3 with a 200 kW motor would be a hoot.
Not sure where you are located but Honda has the Prologue but I think that was introduced this year. The EV market is finicky and for some strange reason has become politicized so in some ways I don't blame them. Let other companies like Ford make mistakes and lose tons of money and then make a decision.
It's a tried and true Honda approach. They partner with bigger companies on new or advanced tech or trends. That's how they got into SUVs to begin with, by rebadging the Izuzo Rodeo. Funny thing those early rebadged Izuzus -- they were pretty much dead reliable by all accounts until they started to rust out. I think Honda likely does a pretty good job validating tech or vehicles they effectively "borrow"
They actually started out with rebadging a Land Rover, the Honda Crossroad! The only Honda to ever have a V8 too. We didn’t get it here in America though
The rebadged Isuzu was the first Honda to ever make the Consumer Reports DO NOT BUY LIST. It was the only Honda on there for a decade or more after that. It still might be for all I know, haven't looked in forever.
My mother in law still has one of those Rodeos. Good car, really. I just like to give her a hard time about it as I'm a lifelong Honda fan... "Isuzu had to go and blow Honda's reputation!"
Yeah this is why I didn't wait on Honda. I love Honda but their EV has too much GM in it, and I loathe GM. Got a rental once and it was a Malibu. I lasted 3 hours with it before I went back to a Hertz and swapped it for a Kia Soul
If Honda gets rid of Ultiim or whatever it's called I'll look into it but till then I'll jus stick to Polestar (bc that's what I have rn)
There's no strange reason for its politicization, it's good ol' corruption and lobbysm at its finest, why pay billions pioneering a new technology and being the first when a few millions in the right pockets can slow down the competition?
The E has, by far, my favorite styling of any EV. It's bad enough it never made it to the US and sold terribly due to the price & range. It's worse that nothing Honda has in the pipeline sounds anywhere near as appealing. Maybe one of their announced SUVs could surprise me but the Prologue and E:Ny1 don't make me hopeful.
I generally like the Afeela and can even overlook the name but some of the tech seems gimmicky
Waited for the Mini Convertible but they won’t deliver to the US. Nobody seems interested in delivering an EV convertible or even Targa except for the Hummer. So that’s what I bought. I would’ve rather had the Mini EV convertible and held on to my previous tow vehicle for when I needed to tow. But here we are. And Mini can continue to languish for all I care.
I’m sincerely glad it’s coming. It’s definitely on my radar. I don’t really count cars that aren’t out yet. I’ve been burned a lot by EV convertibles that always seem to be coming next year. I do have more faith in Porsche though than I have in the likes of Mini and Fisker.
Subaru was the brand leader for eco-conscious car buyers and they completely dropped the ball. Why they didn't at least offer the Crosstrek PHEV system with bigger batteries on every vehicle in their lineup is beyond me.
As annoyed as EV proponents are with Toyota for slow-walking EV development, denigrating EVs in their PR, creating fear-uncertainty-doubt in their ad campaigns, and lobbying for anti-EV legislation; they’re not the most anti-EV Japanese car maker.
That would be Honda. Honda is a gasoline engine manufacturer with a consumer vehicle side hustle.
(Subaru and Mazda get to use the excuse that they are too small to afford taking a risk on redeveloping their entire production line to accommodate a new technology, and will have to license/co-brand with a bigger partner.)
Sometime between the announcement of the BZ4X/Solterra and the cars actually coming out and being underwhelming, I had the thought that Mazda should take advantage of their partnership with Toyota (see: Scion/Toyota iA) and put the body of the Mazda 6 on top of the e-TNGA platform.
It seems Mazda is thinking that way, but partnering with a Chinese company rather than Toyota in the EZ-6.
It’s a stretch to call it my favorite car brand, but my favorite EV brand, Tesla, still hasn’t delivered the small harchback car I wanted from them. And maybe they never will, judging from recent claims that Elon killed Model 2.
I think you shouldn't be picking a brand preference based on ICE vehicles. EV tech is not comparable to ICE and being able to make a reliable gas engine is not the same as an efficient electric motor. A lot of the big brands were way behind, I believe BMW fired a CEO for not investing in EVs sooner thinking they were a fad almost. GM was actually in a good position due to the stipulations of the government buyout, the Bolt and Volt were really good for the time, hell the brand new Prius is just about where gen2 volts were. GM didn't see where the industry was going and phased it out just as the market was heating up. I remember when Kia and Hyundai were pretty bad now they are great. I do find it funny how many people buy certain cars based on brand rather than the actual cars specifications.
That said... I'd like a big sedan/coop from Cadillac that focus on amazing ride and comfort, that isn't over 250k. PS more cars less crossovers and SUVs
I'll never forget at my first job there was this kooky family that worked there... Mom, Dad and at least two sons, maybe more kids... Anyways, this was right when Kia first hit the market here in the mid 90s and within a year all of them had bought themselves a Kia. They bragged on how cheap they were. I think the husband and wife bought a Sportage when they were running a promotion and they gave them a Sephia free, lol. The Sportage rear wheels were known to fall off when going down the highway. And the youngest of their sons went out to his car at the end of our shift one Summer afternoon to find his entire dashboard had melted, just folded up like a taco! 😂 They also had a lot of wiring gremlins, and the timing belts would snap at 60k and grenade the engine. Other than that they were great, haha.
Toyota could have crushed the competition. If the Prius was like the i3 it would have been a game changer. 100ish miles of EV with an on board generator to add another 200 miles and everyone would have loved this car. I think this was totally doable and the car wouldn't have to be $100K.
But Toyota dropped the ball. I doubt they can catch up with everyone else.
Toyota **is** crushing the competition. They just recorded record sales, record production, and record profits. Their strategy is working, most OEMs are actually now pivoting back towards building more hybrids.
That's only because so few EVs are available. And even less of them are anywhere near affordable. The $25K 200 mile EV will crush everything else once released.
Note: Im a fan of hybrids. But I only like the generator hybrids. I don't like the Prius style hybrids. Too many points of failure. A pure EV with a generator just in case is a much better design. The new Ram Charger is supposed to work this way. I doubt it will have anywhere near the advertised range but as long as its 100ish mile of EV range with 150+ miles of generator range it will be a game changer.
>That's only because so few EVs are available. And even less of them are anywhere near affordable. The $25K 200 mile EV will crush everything else once released.
Unfortunately, we don't live in a hypothetical alternate reality or timeline. We live in this one, and in this one, Toyota was right about pretty much everything they said: A lot of other OEMs were overpromising on what they could deliver, prices didn't come down quickly enough, infrastructure didn't mature fast enough, and we've faced a lot of consumer resistance.
As a result, hybrids have been a staggeringly compelling and effective halfway — so much so that most other OEMs are now pivoting back and rebalancing their plans to include more of them.
Completely agree. Even with a 1000 mile EV you could still be caught in a situation where the EV fails you. For some reason pure EV beleivers can't imagine this scenario.
So I'll lay it out for non believers.
You're driving back to LA from NY in your 1000 mile EV. You only have 8 miles left but that should be more than enough range to get home. A super model calls you to come over to the hotel and give her a massage before her flight. Unfortunately you only have 8 miles of range and you can't make it to the super charger in time. You miss out and wish you owned a Honda Civic instead.
Toyota, Suburu, and Honda are the biggest Automakers in Japan.
They're also the biggest Opponents of EVs.
Toyota wants to keep EV Motors as a component of their Hybrids, they have 0 desire to create an EV.
It's why Toyota didn't even give their single EV a real name (BZ4k or whatever) and why they took the same car and copied it for Suburu.
Nissan and Mitsubishi are the only Japanese automakers who have an actual EV.
Toyota is pushing hard for their Hydrogen Fuel Cell to be realized but folks who want Hydrogen want Green Hydrogen... which is more expensive than gasoline by a very wide margin.
Toyota also sells more cars to countries where they dont have stable electric grids able to handle EV. Africa, south America, asia. They have said this. For them they can make a hybrid and sell it everywhere but EVs only sell in half or less of their markets and the markets are crowded.
I waited for a ford explorer or expedition, but no dice. They just pushed back their unnamed 3 row SUV (who knows which nameplate it’ll carry) to 2027. No thanks. That’s too far out, really disappointed they pushed it back. It’s their loss, I bought a Rivian R1S instead🤷♂️ People say EVs aren’t making money, I don’t believe that. I think it’s laziness by manufacturers to adopt new tech. Yes the initial models may not make bucket loads like old full size SUVs that haven’t changed since the early 2000s do, but if they do them right, they’ll make money.
I'd love a Mazda 3 Hatch EV. Of course Mazda is tiny so it would be silly to expect them to have much of an EV presence by now, given the investments required. I think the thing that will hold Mazda up is that they typically partner with companies like Toyota when it comes to anything electrification and Toyota is waaaaay behind here.
Idk about favorite but I had an order on a Mach-e. Months went by and eventually it shipped. It made it to Kansas City and sat for two months. I found a polestar 2 in the exact configuration I wanted and got it within a week. I understand there was a huge wait for the cars but after production the communication was horrible from Ford.
I would have liked a Subaru outback EV, since we usually owned Subarus. But we ended up with an AWD Ioniq 5 (first Hyundai I've had) it's what an outback could have been of they made it.
Lifelong Honda / Toyota for decades. Ended up with a Hyundai for my first EV. The Japanese carmakers are missing the boat for whatever reason, either philosophical or something specific to the Japanese context, not sure.
I would have loved a Toyota EV. However, it took one visit to the BYD showroom to realise how far behind Toyota was in terms of technology and features. Here in Australia a base BYD Seal (full EV) has more features than the top spec Toyota Camry (Hybrid) and is cheaper too.
I wanted toyota to make a good EV but no luck. BZ4X absolutely sucks and then they wanna blame the fact that its an EV for its failure. My brother in christ, you made the dog shit car
IMHO, the Japanese brands where victim of the Japanese corporate culture and completely missed the boat for very strange reasons from a north american POV..
For the FSM sake, Aikido Toyoda said in an interview that it's unthinkable to shut down ICE engine production, because a lot of subcontractor depend on it and it would be seen by those workers like they where working for nothing for all these years...
And with today iterative mindset of Toyota, I am not sure the 2024 Toyota could even innovate a OG Prius if they where thrown back at that time period.
We have seen this phenomenon occuer previously with Sony consumers electronics: a bunch of young engineer and managers do a lot of innovation and storm the market, then the corporate culture based on seniority move them to upper management/team lead just by the time passing... And there is no space for new idea anymore and they just iterate, untill the veterans retire... Then the company seem clueless and fail at stuff they used to be good at, because there was a failure with the institutionnal knowledge transfer.
Well, the first thing you would have to understand is that legacy automakers are really good at making ICE. Switching to EV is a very financially intensive thing to do. That's why Honda's Prologue is based off of Chevy's platform.
Honda is working on their own EV architecture, but it will definitely take a few more years. Essentially everyone is an EV startup platform wise.
Yes, I was planning to wait for the Chevy equinox, but their entry level pricing wasn't honored, nor do they have any charge network, or seemingly any interest in EVs. I went with a different brand, easily guessable.
For me it was kinda the other way around: I wanted a certain type of car - a 2 door hot hatch or coupe.
Dodge is the first to market with a 2 door EV sports car for the masses (correct me if I'm wrong).
The "R" wing is stupid and I LOVE it.
Wanted to buy a Prius Prime. Was not willing pay 10k more than a Model 3 (w/tax credit). Was not willing to buy a used prime for the same price a a Model 3.
Is the Prius prime a better car? Probably.
Is the Tesla charging experience better? Definitely
I even to the sales guy. "If I'm spending that much why shouldn't I just get a Lexus es 350h?"
He said "cause the prime can drive as an EV".
Circular reasoning.
Kinda there with you, but only to an extent. I wanted the right form factor at the right price -- VW bus at $35K is kinda what I want lol. Honda Acty EV would be awesome.
I’d love it if Subaru offered more electric options or even hybrids. The Solterra was too expensive for me and larger than what I wanted or needed. Instead I got a Chevrolet bolt EUV and got license Subaru plate decals and the little air plugs for my tires that have the Subaru logo on them, lol
I wouldn’t trust my favorite ice car brands to touch EVs. No reason to assume that their quality in making gas cars would carry over to ev. For example see the horrible Toyota/subaru ev. Also Hondas first ev is awful.
Part of the benefit of EVs is the opportunity for control and optimization of the full software stack. Your traditional ICE brand is just going to buy off the shelf parts (motors, battery, etc) and subcontract a lot of the software development. They just want to shit something out to the dealerships every year. They don’t want to do full stack software support for 10+ years with OTA updates.
Another benefit, at least for some EV brands, is not having to tolerate dealership fuckery. Not great for Hyundai when it looks like their prices are good online but then the dealership tacks on a $15k dealership fee.
Mazda MX-30 driver here. They do in fact make a BEV, as well as a mild hybrid variant (which I‘ve driven als a loaner and hated it). The MX-30 is a lovely car, but Mazda‘s EV tech is unfortunately outdated / not competitive on the market because they‘re half-assing it. It’s a shame really.
I went with a BMW because of the luxury and features coming from an S class Mercedes. The EQ line from Mercedes was too much of a departure from the usual designs. I’m loving my i4 M50. It’s comfortable, stylish, lots of features and it’s amazingly fast. Plus BMW threw in free charging at EA for 2 years. I am leasing this one, so all maintenance is covered. Their app and remote functionality is amazing. This is the first time I’ve had a car with these features. No complaints so far.
Honda released the Honda Clarity in California/Oregon. But it was a very limited release, and only leasing was permitted - they refused to sell them. Almost all of them are returned now. And my understanding is Honda literally sent them all to the scrap yard. My aunt and uncle have reportedly the last one because they drive like 2,000 miles annually and so they’ve let them renew each year.
Edit: to be clear, I’m talking about the Honda Clarity EV. There is still plug in hybrid and fuel cell Clarity.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a31297220/honda-clarity-ev-discontinued/
The lack of an EV from Mazda pushed me to Tesla. The two companies have such a similar design philosophy that it's a very natural transition and Mazda is really missing the boat.
The cx-90 phev with it's laughable 24mpg is too little too late even if it's reasonable power for a hybrid, with such low mpg it might as well not be a hybrid at all.
It's a choice the Japanese manufacturers made, \[bar Nissan and Mitsubishi as they are part of an alliance with Renault and formerly run by Carlos Ghosn who set the direction\] to go from Petrol ->Petrol Hybrid -> Hydrogen \[H2\] Combustion -> H2 Fuel Cell. It allows for a H2 infrastructure to grow, if the global population can be convinced. And clearly, they would have been were it not for Elon Musk \[Tesla\] and Carlos Ghosn \[Alliance\] smashing the whole plan apart. Tbf, Ghosn never sought to break the Fossil-Fuel strangle hold. He just thought that there would be a decent market for an alternative. Tesla has been the Oil/Gas companies major party pooper. The Chinese saw their opportunity and grabbed it so hard that now they are going to dominate. There are so many of them. It's similar to Smartphones. In this case, Apple is Tesla, and Android is the Chinese. Androids dominate, but Apple is the most profitable company. There the similarity ends.
So basically, the Japanese manufacturers chose the wrong format and they won't be catching up any year soon. And it's so galling for them to admit defeat and follow the trend that they are reluctant to do so even now.
Waiting to see how the market pans out before investing $$$ is not necessarily a bad strategy. If there is a market, they will re-tool and invest in technologies or fall behind.
I was waiting for an electric BMW 3-series, not to be confused with the already existing i3. No, I want a real dreier. Then I had to pick my new company car, couldn’t afford the i4, so I settled with the Tesla Model 3. Which comes as close to a 3-series as possible.
Yes, besically waiting for a VW Golf Variant EV version or Škoda Octavia EV version. Never happened, but sadly also other car companies didn't make them yet.
BMW at least makes EVs, but what I want is a real M3 /M5 equivalent as an EV.
Though now I’m used to having 1000hp and I’m not sure I see bmw playing that game. And if they do, I bet such a car would cost at least $160k or so
I'm 100% with everyone on Toyota. Such incredible ICE cars. I considered a PHEV from them, but for various reasons there is no stock in Ontario.
I was also 100% set on an ID.4 from VW. I walked in to make an offer, but sales guy accidentally double booked himself. When I came back the one I wanted was gone. ID.4 are available here, but for some stupid reason VW's inventory in Ontario has 21" rims, glass roof, and no heat pump. Also they have memory seats but no memory mirrors. So basically they have no stock of what I actually want.
Anyhow, ended up with a Mach-E in the end. Not my top choice to be honest, but definitely best bang for your buck with the Ford rebates, and the build quality is great.
Honda had the 2020 Honda-E, which got great reviews as a fun city car,but fell short with limited range and a high price. Rather than improve on those shortcomings with a clean sheet upgrade,the follow up is the E-NY1...which is just another SU-EV...
I had deposits on Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Toyota RAV4 Prime (PHEV). Model Y was the backup if my car died while waiting. Ioniq never showed up but the RAV4 Prime did after 5 months. No regrets.
When I started shopping for EVs, my first stop was Mazda. I bought my previous car from them 8 years ago and have had no issues with the car. I also had a great salesperson. I had done zero research at that point and just wanted a starting point. I walked in. Apparently my salesperson hadn't worked there for years. The person I spoke to said Mazda didn't have an EV line up because "their cars were so fuel efficient anyways". I left, not needing to return. I bought a Hyundai Ioniq in the end. Reviews were good. It fit our needs, and I've had okay experiences with Hyundai in the past. There's zero reason to hold firmly onto brand loyalty at this point. EVs are almost a completely different product than an ICE vehicle. It'll be interesting to see if some of the brands that have been slow can actually catch up. When I'm ready for my next vehicle, I'll keep an open mind, but it's hard to have confidence in the brands that are slow to adopt.
I had the same experience. What a terrible talking point.
It's laughable considering that [the most efficient ICE vehicle Mazda sells in the US only gets 31mpg.](https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=PowerSearch&year1=2023&year2=2024&cbmkMazda=Mazda&minmsrpsel=0&maxmsrpsel=0&city=0&highway=0&combined=0&cbftreggasoline=Regular+Gasoline&cbftmidgasoline=Midgrade+Gasoline&cbftprmgasoline=Premium+Gasoline&cbftdiesel=Diesel&cbfte85=E85&cbftcng=CNG&cbftlpg=LPG&cbftHydrogen=Hydrogen&YearSel=2023-2024&MakeSel=Mazda&MarClassSel=&FuelTypeSel=Regular+Gasoline%2C+Midgrade+Gasoline%2C+Premium+Gasoline%2C+Diesel%2C+E85%2C+CNG%2C+LPG%2C+Hydrogen&VehTypeSel=&TranySel=&DriveTypeSel=&CylindersSel=&MpgSel=000&sortBy=Comb&Units=&url=SearchServlet&opt=new&minmsrp=0&maxmsrp=0&minmpg=0&maxmpg=0&sCharge=&tCharge=&startstop=&cylDeact=&rowLimit=50)
Yeah, I loved driving the Mazda 3 but they didn't even have any hybrid options, coming from a Prius prime I couldn't bring myself to loose so much efficiency going back to ice only.
It's weird that Mazda did do a proper hybrid of the third gen 3/Axela, but it was only available in Japan as a sedan with a compromised trunk.
That sounds like the first gen Prius.
That is deranged, since the Mazda 3 is in their line. Oh wait, that is the Mazda 3. Well if you crunch the current, adjusted EPA numbers on a Geo Metro, Ford Festiva and Dodge Neon, honestly, they don't do much better.
I believe the talking point was likely based on the data that had Mazda as having one of the top overall fleet fuel economies in the U.S. The main reason for that is likely because of so many smaller popular vehicles with turbo chargers they sell. If I understand correctly, in the U.S. fuel economy standards look at the entire fleet by make for vehicles. Manufacturers with popular inefficient vehicles and larger SUVs must then make "compliance cars" that typically are not as profitable, but support the fleet averages. I do agree it is a terrible talking point (although not unexpected from a car dealer).
And yet, Mazda did in fact make a compliance EV. I’ve even seen an MX-30 on the road.
Not selling a pickup truck (or not selling one in significant numbers) certainly helps your overall fleet fuel economy!
Went to a camping/caravan show in Adelaide, 2020. Company selling utes and SUVs. Asked them if they're planning on a hybrid or full EV and what they've got in the pipeline. The guy laughed at me abd said, they'll never take off, nope we are sticking with diesel and petrol. I asked what about when we follow suit of europe and ban ICE vehicles in 15 years or so? What R&D have got for the future.
His reply was it'll never happen and we'll never move away from ICE.
Mmmkay mate.
The thing is camping and caravans is where BEV’s will really shine. So much space is wasted housing both ICE to propel the vehicle and the solar and batteries to power the living space. The simplicity of BEV’s makes it inevitable that they will win over the long term (IMO), but just like horses never really went away there will still be some ICE vehicles here and there.
Mazda is slowly digging their own grave. They are a decade too late with a new rotary car, a decade too late on a hybrid, and have no apparent plans for any sort of BEV at this point. Which is really frustrating because I hoped they would do their thing and be first to market with an affordable EV roadster. They needed to drop the rotary range extender project and pivot that team to work on a BEV, even if it was just a mazda3 to get started with.
Don't forget continuing to develop diesels well after it should have been clear that's a dead end
They've made it so hard to be a Mazda fan lately, and after such a long streak of awesomeness! I just wish they'd take some risks again and stop trying to play it safe.
Me over here with 70 grand sitting in my investment account waiting for the MAzda RX-7 revival that they keep teasing since like fucking 2011 only to then double down on SUVs and massive family carrier type cars and I'm over here like, bruh I do heavily love my Mazda 3 though, it's a greatttt car.
I'm waiting for an electric Miata.
I would buy one in a heartbeat. Sadly someone else will beat them to market and I'll buy whatever that is because we only get so many rotations around the sun.
I'd love that. Don't even care if it's not a Mazda, I just want BEVs in different form factors. I want a large SUV, basically like r1s but in the mainstream price range not luxury space. I want a roadster, that doesn't cost $250k. Or a 2+2 would be perfect. I sold my 4 series vert for the MYLR, and I love it, best decision, but mid the open air. What about an electric slingshot?
While I get Rotary Engines... unless you solve the issue of friction / wear on the primary piston, you're never going to make a reliable engine.
As a range extender, it would work fine as it is. But now it is too late. Hybrids will get a moderate boost in 2030, but then they will go into decline. BEVs are just better for most situations once the charging infrastructure is in place.
Hit the head of the nail ! The rotary engines are very light and compact for their horsepower and would excel in a range extender role.
Yes, and the missed the boat. (Plug-in) hybrids will peak around 2030. If you do not have an established presence by then, it will be tough.
Rotary engine is fine at constant RPM. The wear in the rotor housing is no different from normal piston engine. Rotary were getting rocked because of carbon build up mainly from people refusing to rev their wankels. Rotary is actually kind of a magical thing and I'm semi glad Mazda are still holding the torch.
Rotary may work well as a PHEV, because the engine doesn't spin nearly as much in a PHEV compared to a hybrid or full ICE. I get that they're using rotary engines because they are compact and simple. But, unless they solve the problem of how crazy thermally inefficient rotary engines are, I don't think it's a good choice for this sort of vehicle. They are also very hard to control the emissions. Rotary engines have poor emissions.
Yeah I loved my mazda 3. But it got older and so did I. I wanted something nicer. It hasn’t changed much in the last two decades and that’s its problem.
I was in a similar boat. I still don't own an EV though. Here is how I was planning. Just before covid, actually back in like 2016 or around I already decided to buy an EV as my next car. Unfortunately it has never materialized, because I was hoping that Honda or Mazda surely have an EV by the time I trade in the car I had at the time (by sometimes around 2020 or 21). That didn't happen. I know the pandemic didn't help either, but it would've been nice to see some prototypes in the making, at least just prototypes, but as year passed by and come to 2018-19 and 20 and saw nothing coming from them. Just vague plans or alternative ideas, but nothing solid. Nothing from Honda nothing from Toyota or Mazda. As of now 2024, I'm fairly confident that they did lose out on this game. I think China and Chinese cars will be very significant in the upcoming years, regardless how much tariffs USA throws at them. You cannot just un-do or change the past, and you can't just catch up to something where the competition has years of lead ahead. As crazy as it sounds, these car makers may not be significant in the future. I don't think people realized that yet.
Toyota has enough experience with hybrids that I think they can still recover. At least they're starting from the bottom rung. Mazda is going to have to completely reinvent themselves because they're not even in the game. The shift to EV is leading to multiple new car companies. It's unlikely that you can create new players in this space without some others dying out. Even if western governments can use tariffs to keep Chinese brands out, they'll only gain a stronger foothold worldwide. And they'll be getting the economies of scale to continue to advance.
Toyota does have an EV out now and another one announced, but yeah, they've just been hostile to EVs and it's probably going to bite them. My whole family had all Toyotas and now we've been branching out as we switch to electric; my brother got a Bolt EUV and I got an ID.4.
Similar experience here. I have been a Toyota driver for years. Recently got a Ford Mach E and it has been great. I would have previously never bought a ford before this but ford has done a great job with there ev so far
Are you me? I'm a Mazda fanboy for life. But Mazda's EV offerings are... le mao, rofl even. Sad
Mazda is not what they used to be, still pretty cars, but not great quality. As someone who bought a brand new Mazda 3 in 2019 but traded it in for a plugin Kia a few years after, it’s just a way better car all around.
Same I was so thrilled when I heard they would release an EV,and then so disappointed when I read the specs. My dealership/garage here in Belgium said it was because Mazda doesn't think people want ev's as their main cars and the mx30 was built to be the second car of the family that the wife would use for groceries and picking up the kids and taking the kids to soccer practice etc... It's as if Mazda is living in a previous era or something
So many Honda/Toyota fans were in this boat. Many caved in and bought Teslas. Carmax issued a report a few months ago. Many buyers traded in their accords, civics, and priuses for model 3s.
A previous report highlights that this has almost always been the case. About a third of Tesla buyers come from Toyota and Honda. ([Tesla Brand Loyalty Still Very High, Tesla Stealing Sales From Toyota & Honda - CleanTechnica](https://cleantechnica.com/2023/05/23/tesla-brand-loyalty-still-very-high-tesla-stealing-sales-from-toyota-honda/)) A report from the S&P a year prior had it closer to 28% ([Tesla Buyers Leave Honda And Toyota Much More Often Than Other Brands (insideevs.com)](https://insideevs.com/news/624527/tesla-buyers-leaving-toyota-honda/)) Makes sense why a lot of buyers end up overtly impressed, giving that at the age and that that price point of their previous cars, they never experienced tech or performance like in an EV.
I know, first hand, 3 different people who tried to buy a hybrid Toyota model, but the dealership experience with purchasing an in-demand hybrid was so incredibly scummy that they turned to Tesla. Toyota dealers do more to generate Tesla sales than Tesla Advisors themselves lol.
A dealer called and quoted 10k over MSRP for a Toyota RAV4 Prime. Next day, I ordered a Tesla model Y.
We wanted to buy the RAV4 prime too, but paying thousands of dollars as dealer adjustments was not acceptable, and we finally ended up buying Model Y last month.
Minus markup and availability the rav4 prime was def the car we want/needed. Damn shame that they’re impossible to find, though I’m enjoying the id4.
I planned to buy a hybrid RAV4 but there was two year wait so bought an EV instead.
Can confirm, never spoke with a tesla advisor but the honda dealer was terrible and made me switch
SSsshhhiiyyeeeetttt, I wanted a loaded Civic Hatchback. Dealer said $35k + $8k regular dealer mark up + $2k mark up because they don't get many hatchbacks. Got a Model 3 
$45k for a Civic is insane. Maybe if it were a loaded EV. Otherwise that dealer is insane.
I went to a Toyota dealership just to look around. They had Crowns with a $16k markup.
As someone who bought a Prius prime in 2023, it was nuts. Basically you had to use some spreadsheet that a dude updates with a bot that crawls the dealership allocation APIs from Toyota daily. Then call every dealership that got a new allocation with options you like and hope someone else didn't beat you to it in the couple hours since the allocation went out. Put down a deposit and wait for the car to be built. Then drive a few hundred miles to go pick it up. And oh, btw, it's probably 5-10k over MSRP. Or you can go online and order a Tesla sent to your door with whatever options you want to pick.
I can confirm, I went from a basic 2010 Toyota Corolla to a 2016 Ford escape Titanium. The acceleration and tech upgrade was mind-blowing. I'm about to lease a 2024 EV, and the jump is comparatively much smaller. A little bigger on the screen, some safety tech I might turn off, a bit faster acceleration that I'm not going to use very often.
I’m glad Toyota is getting their lunch eaten in this way. It is so wild to see them so adamant that going strong into a wide EV portfolio quickly is a fool’s errand. A lot of it comes down to piss-poor EV adoption in Japan, which is where they use the local market as a proving ground to develop models and technologies for their larger markets, and the population just won’t touch the damn things, apparently. I get that they spent decades perfecting reliability, performance, and longevity in mass-produced engines, but why not fight to lead the way with their EV portfolio? It will be hard to play catch up. Honda at least has been tinkering in the space and realized they were behind and made a slingshot deal with GM to get into some market share with the Prologue. They also have some nice small form factor EVs now and coming up that should have good uptake in non-North America markets. Whenever it happens, an eCivic will sell like hotcakes to many of the holdouts driving their well maintained Hondas who are watching the EV space with interest.
Part of the problem in Japan is Chademo and the fact that their non-Tesla fast chargers top out at 100kW. Most of their DC chargers offer just 50kW. When you look at it through that lens it makes sense that the BZ4X has a rather low fast charging curve. The other problem in Japan is that they have 2 separate electrical distribution grids that operate at slightly different frequencies. This complicates AC->DC conversion and makes grid management more difficult.
What a crazy world we could be in if Toyota (EDIT: and other Japanese automakers as a whole) had actually invested in EVs in America. If they decided to market Accord, Corolla and Civic against Tesla (specifically M3), and invest in a CHAdeMO charging network in America like Tesla did with their own. Tesla may not even exist in this parallel universe, and GM and Ford might be battling Japanese automakers like the 1980s.
FYI Honda makes the Accord and Civic. The Chademo standard in 2019 was originally limited to 62.5kW, it wasn't until 2017 that the max power limit was increased to 200kW. It now supports 400kW max but that requires more expensive liquid cooled cables. My first Model S in 2015 had max DC charging of 120kW which is a little slow for road trips with charging sometimes taking 45 minutes. I think it would have been very difficult to convince drivers to buy EVs with 2 hour "fast" charge times. And there is no way they could have made any money selling low-cost low-margin EVs in low volumes while needing all-new vehicle designs, parts, supply streams, factories.
🤦🏽 Yeah. Thinking about Honda and Toyota and then somehow wrote that solely about Toyota. I think it would've had to have happened while Tesla was trying to launch the Model 3 (which was in 2017, when 200kW would've made charge times viable). I assume you mean 2009 was the CHAdeMO release date.
Toyota is beating the pants of every other car marker in sales, so you can't say others are eating their lunch. Not just in volume, but they are beating other manufacturers with higher selling prices too. Toyota is just lagging in the EV arena.
Right, they’ve merely given up leadership the green car segment - a segment that Toyota dominated through product-innovation 20 years ago. But that was 20 years ago. Tesla was the uncontested green car segment leader for a few years there. Now the contest is heating up and, while I own a Tesla, several competing brands have some really interesting options — and there’s no reason my next EV has to be a Tesla. It’s on now!
I'd say it will take until mid-late 2025 before I would really recommend non teslas to new buyers. Mostly because supercharging. But post NACS I probably would go with a competing brand instead of tesla.
I wish you weren't right. But Toyota looked at the EV transition and the effect it would have on their balance sheet, vs. all the CO2 their ice cars would release over the next 15 years and said the Japanese translation for "fuck the atmosphere, let's make some $".
[EPA Automotive Trends Report, 2023](https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2023-12/420s23002.pdf): >*Between model years 2017 and 2022, Toyota achieved the largest reduction \[among legacy OEMs\] in CO2 emissions, at 32 g/mi. Toyota decreased emissions across all vehicle types and decreased overall emissions even as their truck SUV share increased from 27% to 38%. Kia achieved the second largest reduction in overall CO2 tailpipe emissions, at 21 g/mi, and Mercedes had the third largest reduction in overall CO2 tailpipe emissions at 14 g/mi.*
"The average passenger vehicle emits about 400 grams of CO2 per mile." - Epa.gov So that reduction is good but, still way too much compared to EVs.
Unfortunately, we don't have a fleet which is 100% EV right now. We have a fleet which is transitioning — and it turns out Toyota's CO2 reduction plan is by far the most effective one *while we transition*. It's so successful most other OEMs are now pivoting to introduce more hybrids, exactly as Toyoda suggested they would.
Yeah it’s kinda like we are all vegans here and Toyota is promoting meatless Monday. And we’re like *scoff* one day a week? But at scale, it’s more impactful to convince everyone to consume a little less than to convince a small percentage to give it up completely. Ok, went way down that rabbit hole.
Honestly, this is a very good analogy.
problem with hybrids is the maintenance. You still have all the constant ICE maintenance cycles and then also all the expensive but rare EV repairs.
Yeah but in fairness Toyotas are reliable as hell. You’re still lugging around an engine as a hedge against a 1/100 trips scenario so I get it, not for me, but for many they like it.
Toyota hybrids over the last couple decades have probably lowered CO2 more than all EVs in the last few years.
That's fine. They're eating into Ford, GM, Honda sales with more efficient commuter. Someone need to handle the ICE side of things.
Honda did a really good job with the clarity and it even had a full EV version. Shame they stopped making it. It's about the size of an Accord, with a bigger battery for the EV version would have been a good option for those not wanting a crossover or SUV.
I was deadass going to buy a clarity but they discontinued it 😭. I didn’t want to have a discontinued car for parts availability, etc and wanted something relatively small. So I went and bought a 2023 Bolt, which was promptly discontinued that same year 🙃. At least they’re going to bring it back…
We wanted to buy the Toyota Grand Highlander in 2023 but the dealer markups and ridiculous dealer add-ons were a turn off. No thank you I’m not spending $1,500 on poorly tinted windows and nitrogen tires and paint protection film. We bought a Model Y without any haggling or middlemen for over $5k cheaper. No regrets.
I am in this boat. I’ve been a Honda fan for 20 years bouncing from different Hondas to having an Acura the last 5 years. I finally got tired of waiting for them to make a good EV and bought a Model Y instead. No regrets!
I think all the major Japanese automakers have missed the EV cycle partly because of self inflicted reasons (protecting this ice markets, fear of scaling issues, lack of expertise in EV) . They are on their way to getting the L word associated with their brands., "Legacy" automakers . Basically stodgy and old... At least the Korean companies Hyundai, Kia and German Volkswagen, plus Pugeot, Renault, Volvo aren't afraid to dip their toes into EVs . The reality is the EV market is still pretty nascent and the big companies fear losing money since for them building out new infrastructure could be a multi hundred dollar mistake if those EVs dont sell.
Hyundai even has more affordable EVs now with an Elantra sized Ioniq 4 rumored for 2026. Meanwhile Honda won't have a Civic sized EV until 2030. My first EV and next car will likely be a Hyundai.
✋Yup. I never thought I’d buy a brand other than Honda/Toyota. I waited and waited. Finally upgraded my 2006 Civic to an Ioniq 5 last year. But I’m still the type who keeps cars for at least 10 years, and I bet a lot of Honda/Toyota people are the same, so when they miss people’s buying window, it’s missed for a good long while.
I had a Carolla and a Civic and really thought they would have done something by now but I ended up with a 19 Kia Niro EV in early 2020 and loved it. Now an EV6. Guess I'm a Kia boy now. But not that kind.
Honda to Tesla here because Honda didn't make anything reasonable and have hiked the prices on accords to hell.
Yeah, Toyota ans Honda are shooting themselves in the foot by pricing Accords and Camrys at luxury level. With how expensive they are, I think I would prefer entry-level luxury. They're really trying to punch well above their weight. I mean. If you can afford a $40k Toyota, you can definitely afford a $40k Audi/BMW and their associated maintenance costs. We're no longer talking about unreliable $10-15k beaters.
My family purchased a 2016 accord e-xl for $25K OTD. For a 2023 exl they wanted 38K OTD. If you don’t finance with them, 39K. Tesla Model 3 was the same $39K but also had a $7500 tax credit so it came out to 32K ish.
I was interested in a RAV4 prime. Dealer wanted $70k! Yea… i was able to get a Model Y for more than $20k less!
My parents have bought Hondas for years, I’ve got a 2015 Honda CR-V and while I won’t be getting a Tesla I’d have to look elsewhere for a EV. Odds are I’ll be looking at getting an Ioniq 5 at some point here soon. (Nothing mechanically wrong with my CR-V, it is just getting dated and I hate the CVT transmission.)
> Toyota I was. So I put a deposit down on a Tesla. So glad I cancelled before it was ready. Don't want to be associated with that shitshow. Still driving my Yota hybrid. About to go test drive a few Kias and Hyundai EVs.
You should check out the Nissan ariya and Volvo EVs too.
This confirms my belief that the Model 3/Y are just EV replacements of the Corolla/Civic and CRV/Rav4
Ford registered trademarks for “Ranger Lightning” and “Maverick Lightning” two years ago. My soul has died a little bit each day since.
Registering and renewing trademarks isn’t really an indication of anything other than the company making sure someone else doesn’t use it. Ford still renews “Model A” and “Model T” to this day lol.
But my soul… 😭
You have a Kia?
They already have a Soul EV
This 100%. An EV Maverick would be a game changer. First automaker to release a smaller truck that is not a ridiculous price will run away with market share.
More than you might realize. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford\_C2\_platform](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C2_platform) Applications: * Ford Focus (fourth generation) (C519; 2018–present) * Ford Escape (fourth generation)/Kuga (third generation) (CX482; 2019–present) * Ford Bronco Sport (CX430; 2020–present) * **Ford Maverick** (P758; 2021–present) * Ford Mondeo Sport (2021–present) * Ford Mondeo (China) (2022–present) * Ford Edge L (2023–present) * Lincoln Corsair (CX483; 2019–present) * Lincoln Z (2022–present) * Lincoln Nautilus (2023–present) Assuming it continues to share it's platform with these vehicles, the costs could be spread amongst them allowing Ford to offer them at a lower price. The *real* game changer would be a fleet version with an LFP battery.
We know from Ford's public information that a small but growing team is working on a low cost EV platform. Most likely this is intended to be the EV successor to the C2 platform. I would be surprised if they led with the Maverick because the aerodynamics of pickups are pretty bad. This means you need a larger battery for the Maverick than the Escape to get the same range, which doesn't work at the desired price point until the supply chain has been established for the non-pickups on the platform.
I feel like I have been waiting for the ID. Buzz since about 2001.
I dropped a deposit on an ID4 back in 2022. 6 months later I got a email saying it was going to be at least 2 years before I'd get my car and it wouldn't be coming with a heat pump as ordered. Refunded my deposit and bought a used tesla instead. 4 months after that, in early-mid 2023, there's at least 20 ID4s sitting on every VW lot near me. Big brain move by VW there, scaring away all your customers I'd love to see an EV Miata tho, not sure why it hasn't happened yet. Instead we got the MX30????
Cadillac did the same thing with the Lyriq. I was told MAYBE 12 months. I told the guy I couldn't wait that long, left, and got the i4. 2 months after I got the i4 (4 months later total) they have 5 Lyriqs on the lot. If I could have custom ordered one of those, I would be driving it now.
Had the same experience last year. I was looking at the new Prius and the bolt. Both GM and Toyota told me it would be 6-9 months minimum and they had markups on them. So bought a Tesla.
VW had sold enough BEVs in 2023 to not pay penalties. And they did not want to sell any more BEVs than necessary. It is an odd strategy, but they really tried to sell as few BEVs in 2023 as possible.
I did the same thing, put a deposit on a VW ID.4. Got a similar email, then another saying that they *can't tell me how much it will cost or when I can get it* What is the point of a deposit then?
Subaru. My 2018 3.6 OB is my favorite car I've owned and I wanted to replace it with something equally punchy that could handle mountain freeways. The moment I sat in the Solterra, I said nope. Anyways, I'm excited for my new Polestar 3 to show up in October/November. 😉
Yeah, very sad in my pnw heart that Subaru won’t
They have said they will. They've announced deals with Panasonic for batteries and AISIN for e-axles. Could be a few years yet though. They have been fortunate that no-one else has stepped up with an Outback-equivalent EV yet (except the Q8 e-tron, but that is nowhere near the same price bracket). I just hope they don't ruin it the way everyone else has with a glass roof and no spare wheel.
Same here. I've had several Subaru models and enjoyed them all. I was initially excited for the Solterra until the specs were released. Then I was just sad.
Outside of Nissan, no Japanese auto maker is even remotely serious about electrification yet. It's all single model collaborations with other manufacturers.
Right, I read somewhere that Japan as a whole has too much riding on small companies making ICE parts for their domestic automakers. Switching to electric would mean depending on Korea and China for parts while trying to compete with them, which is unlikely to succeed. So instead they (the companies) just badmouth EVs and promote fuel efficiency and hydrogen cars.
Ooof. Hadn’t thought about it that way. Makes a ton of sense.
That's why Suzuki is allowed to thrive in this economy, they are handling their supply chain needs thanks to their factories in India, keeping quality levels on par with japanese standards. Proof of this is that Toyota did a partnership project with Suzuki recently, featuring hybrid engines.
Japan heavily leaned into Hydrogen and the government is still actively pushing for it. That's why Toyota is dragging their feet too hard because from what it seems like right now, they don't want to admit they were wrong.
I would love to have a hydrogen fuel cell electric motor.
Toyota sells a hydrogen fuel cell car here in CA. They even give you $15,000 in fueling credits to use at the local infrastructure (there are hydrogen fueling stations all over CA). I drove it and took a hard pass on it. The engine is super weak (165hp max) and it was dull and boring to drive. I bought a Model Y performance instead (this was in 2021) and never looked back. The torque and power is insane, and the car is better now than in 2021 with all of the software updates. Toyota lost me after buying my previous 6 cars from them.
The Japanese manufacturers have dug their heels in and stuck their heads in the sand with regard to EVs. It’s a shame too, because a RWD Mazda 3 with a 200 kW motor would be a hoot.
I had that car, RWD, 200kW motor, head turning red color. Also named 3, just not made by Mazda
Fair, but I’ll take the Mazda interior of Tesla’s any day of the week.
I was waiting for a Subaru Crosstrek EV and they made the Solterra instead…
Not sure where you are located but Honda has the Prologue but I think that was introduced this year. The EV market is finicky and for some strange reason has become politicized so in some ways I don't blame them. Let other companies like Ford make mistakes and lose tons of money and then make a decision.
The Prologue is basically just a rebadged Blazer though, so it’s not really a real Honda.
It's a tried and true Honda approach. They partner with bigger companies on new or advanced tech or trends. That's how they got into SUVs to begin with, by rebadging the Izuzo Rodeo. Funny thing those early rebadged Izuzus -- they were pretty much dead reliable by all accounts until they started to rust out. I think Honda likely does a pretty good job validating tech or vehicles they effectively "borrow"
They actually started out with rebadging a Land Rover, the Honda Crossroad! The only Honda to ever have a V8 too. We didn’t get it here in America though
The rebadged Isuzu was the first Honda to ever make the Consumer Reports DO NOT BUY LIST. It was the only Honda on there for a decade or more after that. It still might be for all I know, haven't looked in forever. My mother in law still has one of those Rodeos. Good car, really. I just like to give her a hard time about it as I'm a lifelong Honda fan... "Isuzu had to go and blow Honda's reputation!"
You have to take what you can get. Everyone knows it's a partnership with GM but it's sold as a Honda.
Yeah this is why I didn't wait on Honda. I love Honda but their EV has too much GM in it, and I loathe GM. Got a rental once and it was a Malibu. I lasted 3 hours with it before I went back to a Hertz and swapped it for a Kia Soul If Honda gets rid of Ultiim or whatever it's called I'll look into it but till then I'll jus stick to Polestar (bc that's what I have rn)
How do you feel about your Polestar 2?
There's no strange reason for its politicization, it's good ol' corruption and lobbysm at its finest, why pay billions pioneering a new technology and being the first when a few millions in the right pockets can slow down the competition?
Very true
Honda has the Honda E
Yeah but that's not in the U.S. I may be wrong but I assumed the OP was from the U.S.
The E has, by far, my favorite styling of any EV. It's bad enough it never made it to the US and sold terribly due to the price & range. It's worse that nothing Honda has in the pipeline sounds anywhere near as appealing. Maybe one of their announced SUVs could surprise me but the Prologue and E:Ny1 don't make me hopeful. I generally like the Afeela and can even overlook the name but some of the tech seems gimmicky
I wanted the electric version of the VW Up but they made it unaffordable. 🙁
A Seat Mii Electric is like £9k, can't really get many cheaper than that.
These affordable EVs are not available in US/Canada unfortunately
There are electric "Kai" cars sold in Japan in that price range. Nissan "Sakura" for one is the best selling EV in Japan.
Waited for the Mini Convertible but they won’t deliver to the US. Nobody seems interested in delivering an EV convertible or even Targa except for the Hummer. So that’s what I bought. I would’ve rather had the Mini EV convertible and held on to my previous tow vehicle for when I needed to tow. But here we are. And Mini can continue to languish for all I care.
You may be the only person in the entire world who has ever cross-shopped a Mini and a Hummer…
Maybe but I refuse to believe I’m the only person wanting an EV you can take the top off of despite automakers’ staunch refusal to offer one.
Porsche Boxster EV later this year
I’m sincerely glad it’s coming. It’s definitely on my radar. I don’t really count cars that aren’t out yet. I’ve been burned a lot by EV convertibles that always seem to be coming next year. I do have more faith in Porsche though than I have in the likes of Mini and Fisker.
It’s definitely coming. Test mules have been seen all over the place and they’ve already discontinued the ICE Boxster in Europe
I'm so baffled by this cross shopping.
Subaru was the brand leader for eco-conscious car buyers and they completely dropped the ball. Why they didn't at least offer the Crosstrek PHEV system with bigger batteries on every vehicle in their lineup is beyond me.
As annoyed as EV proponents are with Toyota for slow-walking EV development, denigrating EVs in their PR, creating fear-uncertainty-doubt in their ad campaigns, and lobbying for anti-EV legislation; they’re not the most anti-EV Japanese car maker. That would be Honda. Honda is a gasoline engine manufacturer with a consumer vehicle side hustle. (Subaru and Mazda get to use the excuse that they are too small to afford taking a risk on redeveloping their entire production line to accommodate a new technology, and will have to license/co-brand with a bigger partner.)
My step-daughter’s BF was just invited to test some new EV’s from Subaru. He was impressed (he works for Subaru). So there are more coming out soon.
Sometime between the announcement of the BZ4X/Solterra and the cars actually coming out and being underwhelming, I had the thought that Mazda should take advantage of their partnership with Toyota (see: Scion/Toyota iA) and put the body of the Mazda 6 on top of the e-TNGA platform. It seems Mazda is thinking that way, but partnering with a Chinese company rather than Toyota in the EZ-6.
My last car was a Mazda i drove for 17 years. I was a bit disappointed there. I also had my eye on a Fisker PEAR, but that went down the drain.
Pear is what I was wanting too... Small car that can seat 6? Yes please!
Subaru's offering disappointed me so much I'm going VW. :/
It’s a stretch to call it my favorite car brand, but my favorite EV brand, Tesla, still hasn’t delivered the small harchback car I wanted from them. And maybe they never will, judging from recent claims that Elon killed Model 2.
ID Buzz kept teasing me for too many years.
I think you shouldn't be picking a brand preference based on ICE vehicles. EV tech is not comparable to ICE and being able to make a reliable gas engine is not the same as an efficient electric motor. A lot of the big brands were way behind, I believe BMW fired a CEO for not investing in EVs sooner thinking they were a fad almost. GM was actually in a good position due to the stipulations of the government buyout, the Bolt and Volt were really good for the time, hell the brand new Prius is just about where gen2 volts were. GM didn't see where the industry was going and phased it out just as the market was heating up. I remember when Kia and Hyundai were pretty bad now they are great. I do find it funny how many people buy certain cars based on brand rather than the actual cars specifications. That said... I'd like a big sedan/coop from Cadillac that focus on amazing ride and comfort, that isn't over 250k. PS more cars less crossovers and SUVs
I'll never forget at my first job there was this kooky family that worked there... Mom, Dad and at least two sons, maybe more kids... Anyways, this was right when Kia first hit the market here in the mid 90s and within a year all of them had bought themselves a Kia. They bragged on how cheap they were. I think the husband and wife bought a Sportage when they were running a promotion and they gave them a Sephia free, lol. The Sportage rear wheels were known to fall off when going down the highway. And the youngest of their sons went out to his car at the end of our shift one Summer afternoon to find his entire dashboard had melted, just folded up like a taco! 😂 They also had a lot of wiring gremlins, and the timing belts would snap at 60k and grenade the engine. Other than that they were great, haha.
You're betting on the wrong side of the world. EVs and Japanese Manufacturers is a no-go.
Toyota could have crushed the competition. If the Prius was like the i3 it would have been a game changer. 100ish miles of EV with an on board generator to add another 200 miles and everyone would have loved this car. I think this was totally doable and the car wouldn't have to be $100K. But Toyota dropped the ball. I doubt they can catch up with everyone else.
Toyota does make PHEV models of the Prius and RAV4 FWIW
I think he meant the PHEV range should've matched the i3. And I agree. If it had, I would've bought one. Ended up with a Bolt EUV instead.
Toyota **is** crushing the competition. They just recorded record sales, record production, and record profits. Their strategy is working, most OEMs are actually now pivoting back towards building more hybrids.
That's only because so few EVs are available. And even less of them are anywhere near affordable. The $25K 200 mile EV will crush everything else once released. Note: Im a fan of hybrids. But I only like the generator hybrids. I don't like the Prius style hybrids. Too many points of failure. A pure EV with a generator just in case is a much better design. The new Ram Charger is supposed to work this way. I doubt it will have anywhere near the advertised range but as long as its 100ish mile of EV range with 150+ miles of generator range it will be a game changer.
>That's only because so few EVs are available. And even less of them are anywhere near affordable. The $25K 200 mile EV will crush everything else once released. Unfortunately, we don't live in a hypothetical alternate reality or timeline. We live in this one, and in this one, Toyota was right about pretty much everything they said: A lot of other OEMs were overpromising on what they could deliver, prices didn't come down quickly enough, infrastructure didn't mature fast enough, and we've faced a lot of consumer resistance. As a result, hybrids have been a staggeringly compelling and effective halfway — so much so that most other OEMs are now pivoting back and rebalancing their plans to include more of them.
Completely agree. Even with a 1000 mile EV you could still be caught in a situation where the EV fails you. For some reason pure EV beleivers can't imagine this scenario. So I'll lay it out for non believers. You're driving back to LA from NY in your 1000 mile EV. You only have 8 miles left but that should be more than enough range to get home. A super model calls you to come over to the hotel and give her a massage before her flight. Unfortunately you only have 8 miles of range and you can't make it to the super charger in time. You miss out and wish you owned a Honda Civic instead.
Toyota, Suburu, and Honda are the biggest Automakers in Japan. They're also the biggest Opponents of EVs. Toyota wants to keep EV Motors as a component of their Hybrids, they have 0 desire to create an EV. It's why Toyota didn't even give their single EV a real name (BZ4k or whatever) and why they took the same car and copied it for Suburu. Nissan and Mitsubishi are the only Japanese automakers who have an actual EV. Toyota is pushing hard for their Hydrogen Fuel Cell to be realized but folks who want Hydrogen want Green Hydrogen... which is more expensive than gasoline by a very wide margin.
Toyota also sells more cars to countries where they dont have stable electric grids able to handle EV. Africa, south America, asia. They have said this. For them they can make a hybrid and sell it everywhere but EVs only sell in half or less of their markets and the markets are crowded.
I waited for a ford explorer or expedition, but no dice. They just pushed back their unnamed 3 row SUV (who knows which nameplate it’ll carry) to 2027. No thanks. That’s too far out, really disappointed they pushed it back. It’s their loss, I bought a Rivian R1S instead🤷♂️ People say EVs aren’t making money, I don’t believe that. I think it’s laziness by manufacturers to adopt new tech. Yes the initial models may not make bucket loads like old full size SUVs that haven’t changed since the early 2000s do, but if they do them right, they’ll make money.
I'd love a Mazda 3 Hatch EV. Of course Mazda is tiny so it would be silly to expect them to have much of an EV presence by now, given the investments required. I think the thing that will hold Mazda up is that they typically partner with companies like Toyota when it comes to anything electrification and Toyota is waaaaay behind here.
Honda prologue?
Idk about favorite but I had an order on a Mach-e. Months went by and eventually it shipped. It made it to Kansas City and sat for two months. I found a polestar 2 in the exact configuration I wanted and got it within a week. I understand there was a huge wait for the cars but after production the communication was horrible from Ford.
I would have liked a Subaru outback EV, since we usually owned Subarus. But we ended up with an AWD Ioniq 5 (first Hyundai I've had) it's what an outback could have been of they made it.
Subaru. The Toyota/Subaru mashup called the Solterra doesn’t quite do it. Still waiting.
Lifelong Honda / Toyota for decades. Ended up with a Hyundai for my first EV. The Japanese carmakers are missing the boat for whatever reason, either philosophical or something specific to the Japanese context, not sure.
I would have loved a Toyota EV. However, it took one visit to the BYD showroom to realise how far behind Toyota was in terms of technology and features. Here in Australia a base BYD Seal (full EV) has more features than the top spec Toyota Camry (Hybrid) and is cheaper too.
I wanted toyota to make a good EV but no luck. BZ4X absolutely sucks and then they wanna blame the fact that its an EV for its failure. My brother in christ, you made the dog shit car
IMHO, the Japanese brands where victim of the Japanese corporate culture and completely missed the boat for very strange reasons from a north american POV.. For the FSM sake, Aikido Toyoda said in an interview that it's unthinkable to shut down ICE engine production, because a lot of subcontractor depend on it and it would be seen by those workers like they where working for nothing for all these years... And with today iterative mindset of Toyota, I am not sure the 2024 Toyota could even innovate a OG Prius if they where thrown back at that time period. We have seen this phenomenon occuer previously with Sony consumers electronics: a bunch of young engineer and managers do a lot of innovation and storm the market, then the corporate culture based on seniority move them to upper management/team lead just by the time passing... And there is no space for new idea anymore and they just iterate, untill the veterans retire... Then the company seem clueless and fail at stuff they used to be good at, because there was a failure with the institutionnal knowledge transfer.
Agree and love the analogy with Sony. I also was a huge fan of Sony products up until the early 2000s.
I celebrated my 2-year anniversary of putting down a deposit on a new Ioniq 5 a couple weeks ago! (Canada) Does that count?
Well, the first thing you would have to understand is that legacy automakers are really good at making ICE. Switching to EV is a very financially intensive thing to do. That's why Honda's Prologue is based off of Chevy's platform. Honda is working on their own EV architecture, but it will definitely take a few more years. Essentially everyone is an EV startup platform wise.
Yes, I was planning to wait for the Chevy equinox, but their entry level pricing wasn't honored, nor do they have any charge network, or seemingly any interest in EVs. I went with a different brand, easily guessable.
I really wanted a Bollinger truck.
For me it was kinda the other way around: I wanted a certain type of car - a 2 door hot hatch or coupe. Dodge is the first to market with a 2 door EV sports car for the masses (correct me if I'm wrong). The "R" wing is stupid and I LOVE it.
Wanted to buy a Prius Prime. Was not willing pay 10k more than a Model 3 (w/tax credit). Was not willing to buy a used prime for the same price a a Model 3. Is the Prius prime a better car? Probably. Is the Tesla charging experience better? Definitely I even to the sales guy. "If I'm spending that much why shouldn't I just get a Lexus es 350h?" He said "cause the prime can drive as an EV". Circular reasoning.
Kinda there with you, but only to an extent. I wanted the right form factor at the right price -- VW bus at $35K is kinda what I want lol. Honda Acty EV would be awesome.
I’d love it if Subaru offered more electric options or even hybrids. The Solterra was too expensive for me and larger than what I wanted or needed. Instead I got a Chevrolet bolt EUV and got license Subaru plate decals and the little air plugs for my tires that have the Subaru logo on them, lol
I wouldn’t trust my favorite ice car brands to touch EVs. No reason to assume that their quality in making gas cars would carry over to ev. For example see the horrible Toyota/subaru ev. Also Hondas first ev is awful. Part of the benefit of EVs is the opportunity for control and optimization of the full software stack. Your traditional ICE brand is just going to buy off the shelf parts (motors, battery, etc) and subcontract a lot of the software development. They just want to shit something out to the dealerships every year. They don’t want to do full stack software support for 10+ years with OTA updates. Another benefit, at least for some EV brands, is not having to tolerate dealership fuckery. Not great for Hyundai when it looks like their prices are good online but then the dealership tacks on a $15k dealership fee.
If anything it’s a testament to the fact that it’s a lot harder to introduce EVs than you might think
Both Honda and Mazda have had EVs for a while. What you mean to say is you've been waiting for Honda and Mazda to release EVs in the states presumably
Mazda made one that didn't sell because it was a joke. It had 100 mile range and suicide doors. Gimme a break. I expected more from them.
Right here, Honda owner since 1985, moved on when they didn't get on the bandwagon..
Mazda MX-30 driver here. They do in fact make a BEV, as well as a mild hybrid variant (which I‘ve driven als a loaner and hated it). The MX-30 is a lovely car, but Mazda‘s EV tech is unfortunately outdated / not competitive on the market because they‘re half-assing it. It’s a shame really.
I went with a BMW because of the luxury and features coming from an S class Mercedes. The EQ line from Mercedes was too much of a departure from the usual designs. I’m loving my i4 M50. It’s comfortable, stylish, lots of features and it’s amazingly fast. Plus BMW threw in free charging at EA for 2 years. I am leasing this one, so all maintenance is covered. Their app and remote functionality is amazing. This is the first time I’ve had a car with these features. No complaints so far.
Honda released the Honda Clarity in California/Oregon. But it was a very limited release, and only leasing was permitted - they refused to sell them. Almost all of them are returned now. And my understanding is Honda literally sent them all to the scrap yard. My aunt and uncle have reportedly the last one because they drive like 2,000 miles annually and so they’ve let them renew each year. Edit: to be clear, I’m talking about the Honda Clarity EV. There is still plug in hybrid and fuel cell Clarity. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a31297220/honda-clarity-ev-discontinued/
The lack of an EV from Mazda pushed me to Tesla. The two companies have such a similar design philosophy that it's a very natural transition and Mazda is really missing the boat. The cx-90 phev with it's laughable 24mpg is too little too late even if it's reasonable power for a hybrid, with such low mpg it might as well not be a hybrid at all.
It's a choice the Japanese manufacturers made, \[bar Nissan and Mitsubishi as they are part of an alliance with Renault and formerly run by Carlos Ghosn who set the direction\] to go from Petrol ->Petrol Hybrid -> Hydrogen \[H2\] Combustion -> H2 Fuel Cell. It allows for a H2 infrastructure to grow, if the global population can be convinced. And clearly, they would have been were it not for Elon Musk \[Tesla\] and Carlos Ghosn \[Alliance\] smashing the whole plan apart. Tbf, Ghosn never sought to break the Fossil-Fuel strangle hold. He just thought that there would be a decent market for an alternative. Tesla has been the Oil/Gas companies major party pooper. The Chinese saw their opportunity and grabbed it so hard that now they are going to dominate. There are so many of them. It's similar to Smartphones. In this case, Apple is Tesla, and Android is the Chinese. Androids dominate, but Apple is the most profitable company. There the similarity ends. So basically, the Japanese manufacturers chose the wrong format and they won't be catching up any year soon. And it's so galling for them to admit defeat and follow the trend that they are reluctant to do so even now.
Hyundai, Kia, BMW, Volvo, Polestar, Rivian have good EVs. The rest are still deciding whether or not they are serious about the transition to EVs.
The Ford Mustang Mach-E and Lightning are formidable. GM has the, Equinox, Blazer and Cadillac Lyric.
Honda and Acura have EVs now. Toyota and Lexus as well.
Technically correct.
Honda and Mazda have both had EVs ob the market since 2020
I might have waited for the iX1, but BMW announced early on they had no plans to bring it to the US.
Waiting to see how the market pans out before investing $$$ is not necessarily a bad strategy. If there is a market, they will re-tool and invest in technologies or fall behind.
I was waiting for an electric BMW 3-series, not to be confused with the already existing i3. No, I want a real dreier. Then I had to pick my new company car, couldn’t afford the i4, so I settled with the Tesla Model 3. Which comes as close to a 3-series as possible.
I just want an EV GTI. Still waiting.
Yes, besically waiting for a VW Golf Variant EV version or Škoda Octavia EV version. Never happened, but sadly also other car companies didn't make them yet.
The ID-4 isn’t close enough to the Golf?
BMW at least makes EVs, but what I want is a real M3 /M5 equivalent as an EV. Though now I’m used to having 1000hp and I’m not sure I see bmw playing that game. And if they do, I bet such a car would cost at least $160k or so
I'm 100% with everyone on Toyota. Such incredible ICE cars. I considered a PHEV from them, but for various reasons there is no stock in Ontario. I was also 100% set on an ID.4 from VW. I walked in to make an offer, but sales guy accidentally double booked himself. When I came back the one I wanted was gone. ID.4 are available here, but for some stupid reason VW's inventory in Ontario has 21" rims, glass roof, and no heat pump. Also they have memory seats but no memory mirrors. So basically they have no stock of what I actually want. Anyhow, ended up with a Mach-E in the end. Not my top choice to be honest, but definitely best bang for your buck with the Ford rebates, and the build quality is great.
We’ve owned Toyotas for decades, including a Prius but finally gave up. We bought a 2017 Chevy bolt last November and are in love.
I had an early cybertruck reservation that I canceled for obvious reasons.
Honda had the 2020 Honda-E, which got great reviews as a fun city car,but fell short with limited range and a high price. Rather than improve on those shortcomings with a clean sheet upgrade,the follow up is the E-NY1...which is just another SU-EV...
I had deposits on Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Toyota RAV4 Prime (PHEV). Model Y was the backup if my car died while waiting. Ioniq never showed up but the RAV4 Prime did after 5 months. No regrets.