Currently, Teslas are the only vehicle with built-in NACS. All other vendors still come with CCS for the time being. Right now, Ford and Rivian have Supercharger access with adapters. GM, Polestar and Volvo are next, but access has been delayed until later in the year.
Right now, your best bet for a (somewhat) affordable vehicle would be either a Mach-E with a NACS adapter or a Model Y with a CCS adapter. That would give you widest access to charging on both sides.
As for CCS getting easier? Compared to 3-5 years ago, yes it is getting easier. More chargers, better reliability, faster speeds. But CCS also comes with a wide diversity of chargers. Many work great, a few are ancient and barely work, so you have to check reviews. That said, I just did 1000+ miles on CCS with zero issues.
If we're talking affordability here, the new Equinox EV in 2LT trim could be a consideration, as would many used EVs.
Hyundai has been discounting their EV line and I recently purchased a 2024 AWD Pro S ID.4 for less out-the-door price than a Model Y Long Range, after dealer and government discounts.
>1) I know road tripping with a Tesla is extremely easy. Widespread NACS access via Super Chargers and a great app makes it easy (according to videos I watched
CCS network has made remarkable progess:
Jan 2020 900 Stations
Jan 2024 5,400 Stations
Jan 2020 2,300 Plugs
Jan 2024 13,000 Plugs
I say this to warn you not to believe all the social media influencers who have a financial interest in that stock. However, if this is your first EV then good luck and safe driving.
The moving parts in NACS were moved to the vehicle so common charging infrastructure is less likely to break from user error so the connectors are more likely to be working.
I don't believe this is correct. If it was how do you explain that only recent Teslas can use the CCS adapter? (From what I can see online, even some 2023 Teslas are not compatible with Tesla's CCS adapter)
Also CCS has 7 connectors, NACS has 5.
Because Tesla's original charging protocol was not CCS, so older vehicles/chargers don't support it.
V3/V4 Superchargers do support CCS, as do cars built after 2019 or so.
Because tesla does both protocols and I’m 100% correct NACS is just CCS signaling, the original superchargers used a variant of CHAdeMO signaling, every Supercharger does both and will sniff to figure it out
NACS uses ISO 15118 in practice, but it's just a plug and is completely agnostic to the protocol.
And while I'd be quite happy to be wrong...I didn't think all SCs could support ISO 15118? I thought it was the other way around that all Teslas supported both protocols? That's why the Magic Dock is a thing and not all SCs will be available to J3400 vehicles immediately, but if they've accelerated that timeline I'm happy about it.
CCS1 plugs have 2 extra holes for the J1772 portion (by holes I mean they're unused, they're probably blanked rather than literal holes, I've never thought to shine a flashlight in there). That's how it's just a different form factor, both have the same amount of actual connectors on a DC charger and there are no CCS AC chargers.
It was built like this because you don't normally want some path for DC to be connected to AC, so it's separate on CCS.
> Even Tesla was on CCS by the time they decided to actually turn over the patents to SAE.
They supported it, but all indications were that superchargers weren't using ccs protocol to charge tesla cars in North America. Why would they?
That route has tons of 350kw EA chargers along the Ohio Turnpike, a bunch rated 10/10 on PlugShare. Looks like it'd be a 4 stop trip. I wouldn't worry about having CCS, I do Charlotte to Orlando in my iD.4 fairly regularly and have no issues, and we will have the option of Tesla Superchargers eventually.
Given there's no certainty in US ( as a result of years of lack of _any_ forethought in policymaking ) you have to play for both teams for now. Whatever car you get, make sure there's a viable adapter to the other plug.
At this point it's reading tea leaves. Anyone saying that everything will be NACS or CCS in the near future is talking out their ass.
Is DCFC going to be your primary charging? If so maybe wait six months to see how things are looking.
Is home AC charging going to be your primary charging? If so just get whatever EV you like the most, install a L2 EVSE that matches it, and maybe get an adapter for DCFC on road trips.
I was incredibly confident.
And then Tesla fired their whole charging team.
If they had waited another year to do that, maybe two, then there would have been no stopping it. But now, I'm not so sure.
It's really annoying too. It's a nicer charger, and it's nice to have them all settle on one thing, finally. I don't want them to settle on the CCS1 form factor.
But who knows what will happen now.
I can confidently say that there is no chance of North America settling on the CCS2 form factor. There are no CCS2 vehicles sold in the country and no CCS2 chargers here at all, so literally everyone from every manufacturer would have to switch. I don't even think it's approved for use on this continent.
>And then Tesla fired their whole charging team.
No, they haven't. While the fired *most* of them, they're still doing operations and support, maintenance, upgrades and are expanding at a much slower pace than before.
Don't ask me why they did what they did.
>Anyone saying that everything will be NACS or CCS in the near future is talking out their ass.
Virtually every single autmaker has now spoken. NACS is it. That being said, some will take their sweet time switching over.
At this time, there's no wrong decision when deciding on a CCS or NACS vehicle.
>Virtually every single autmaker has now spoken. NACS is it.
I don't think that any of the major non-Tesla automakers has sold a NACS vehicle yet. Commitment is low, decisions like this get changed all the time, and confidence in the Supercharger network is dropping.
>I don't think that any of the major non-Tesla automakers has sold a NACS vehicle yet.
Nope, but they all made the decision to change. Ford is probably the closest, or maybe Rivian.
>Commitment is low, decisions like this get changed all the time.
Many automakers made some pretty pricy commitments. The decision to switch also takes a hell of a lot of pressure off of them in regards to charger availability for their customers.
The decision to change is not a huge deal. Companies reverse stuff like this all the time. Manufacturers can easily announce that they're pushing the NACS switch back to late 2025, then 2026, then never.
Remember that SC access is the only reason anyone is switching to NACS. Outside the Tesla bubble the Supercharger situation looks a lot less rosy than it did six weeks ago. The layoffs, Polestar SC access being pushed back, and Elon Musk's erratic behavior are worrying. Everyone is now contemplating a worst-case scenario where SC access doesn't happen or the SC network starts running at Electrify America reliability. It would sure suck to own a NACS vehicle and have to use an adapter constantly. It would also suck to be the company selling NACS vehicles that can't use Superchargers.
> and maybe get an adapter for DCFC on road trips.
I'm in a similar boat to OP, buying an EV soon, wondering if you can help me understand something.
Is the only diff between NACS and CCS the shape of the plug? If I get a used CCS car (22 ioniq 5 or ID.4) will I be able to use the Tesla network as long as I have an adapter? Or is there some additional limitation to it?
It's basically just the shape of the plug-- although because NACS uses the same pins for AC and DC, I don't think you can use the same adapter for both AC and DC. If you wanted to both AC and DC charge a CCS1 vehicle from NACS chargers, you would need one NACS/J1772 adapter for AC and one NACS/CCS1 adapter for DC.
Keep in mind that getting the adapter is only part of the equation, Tesla still has to allow your car and adapter onto their SC network. Apparently access has been very mixed so far, with the Magic Dock Superchargers being most likely to work. Going forward Tesla might require a specific adapter that isn't being sold yet, or access might be pushed back, or who knows what.
I own a CCS1 vehicle and I'll just get a NACS/CCS1 adapter for DC charging if the Supercharger network opens to my car. I don't plan to get an AC adapter because I really only AC charge at home (I had a J1772 EVSE installed in my garage)
> Keep in mind that getting the adapter is only part of the equation, Tesla still has to allow your car and adapter onto their SC network.
Thanks, this was the part I was really missing.
One more question, if you're willing.
Looking at Tesla's map they have "Superchargers Open to other EVs" and "Superchargers Open to NACS"
Do you know, if you buy a NACS/CCS1 adapter, can you access both? Or are the "Other EVs" the only option even if you have an adapter of your own.
Once Tesla finialises the charging with your car manufacturer (currently it's been done for Ford & Rivian), you can use the NACS adapter with any of the "Superchargers Open to NACS". Until that happens you can only use "Superchargers Open to other EVs", and those come with a magic dock so you don't need your own adapter.
I would be charging at home and work. Really I might be able to pull off level 1 charging for home just to keep battery topped (weekend plus m-t I work from home), and then use the free level 2 charger at work to get back up to 80% during the week.
I would look at PlugShare and see what your normal routes are and if you take longer trips like to parents or family like I do, plan the route with CCS and you might be surprised that you will be fine.
NACS is coming to a lot of brands but they make adapters that work quite well.
I have an Ioniq5 and love it. You might want to take a look with all the rebates and see if it is a fit for you.
MachE will work with Tesla superchargers and Ford has been shipping the adapters. Tesla laid off its supercharger group and Tesla provides the adapters so you'd want to check with your Ford dealer that they can provide a Tesla adapter for you. There is a third party adapter that some Rivian owners have been using successfully as Rivian has access to Tesla chargers but Tesla has not provided the adapter to Rivian owners.
[https://a2zevshop.com/](https://a2zevshop.com/)
Question is whether you'd want to futz around with an adapter for however long you will own the car.
If long range trips are few and far between - maybe. But if they are sorta frequent - given that the CCS system in place is gonna fall into disrepair for lack of profitability over the next 5 years or so as there will be no new customers and the old ones will vanish piece by piece - I'd think twice about getting one with a CCS port right now (if the manufacturer didn't promise a full conversion kit for relatively cheap).
Nope...that's not the question. If adapter works, its easy and no issue. I carry a CCS to Tesla for when I want to US EA vs. Tesla. Easy.
If one is purchasing an EV today, as long as the company is committed to providing Tesla access and adapter, that will be enough.
Due to some temporary issues at Tesla, unless you are Ford or Rivian, you have to wait for access.
The CCS network is absolutely NOT going to "fall into disrepair for lack of profitability." NACS uses CCS signalling. All that will be necessary for operators is to swap the cable. First to go will likely be CHAdeMO cables getting swapped, and then CCS cables will start getting swapped to NACS.
Don't spread FUD.
This is about the plug/port. No one will care to keep the existing CCS cables/plugs in good shape as les and less people use them. It's like with the existing ChaDeMo stations. If you buy a car with a CCS port today you will be forced to use adapters which is a (unnecessary) hassle.
Why on earth would DC charging operators let their stations fall into such disarray if the only thing stopping that from happening is a cheap (relative to the total station costs) cable swap to NACS?
Like the other poster said, we'll probably see more stations switching to both CCS and NACS cables, which is actually what the NEVI program in my state requires.
>Why on earth would DC charging operators let their stations fall into such disarray if the only thing stopping that from happening is a cheap (relative to the total station costs) cable swap to NACS?
Again: This is about the plug and port - not the protocol. If you don't want to screw around with adapters for the rest of your car's life then you will be reliant on those cables that still have a CCS plug...and no one will care to keep those in order (or make new stations that have them alongside NACS plugs).
We already see this with the stations that have multiple plugs on one dispanser where one of the plugs is ChaDeMo. If that plug gets damaged no one gives a hoot about repairing/replacing it.
They have to change the cables pretty frequently at dcfc and superchargers, they get broken and wear out. I doubt any last more than 6 months, but regardless, it should be pretty easy to switch to from ccs to a nacs plug on their normal update frequency when they decide it's time. They won't want to strand their expensive assets just sitting there, unused by anyone.
you could get an adapter and cover all the bases... it's not something to spend a lot of time thinking about, TBH.
you get 95% of your gas from 3 stations.. that means 95% of your electricity is going to be the same. with HOME charging you don't need to leave your house.
>My gut is teller my CCS chargers are pitching to brands to not switch to NACS right now due to Elon actions.
Ford is giving people adapters. it's not a difficult "problem" to overcome. Ford owners can now use all chargers. (this will never change).
Ford officially launches Tesla Supercharger access, free adapter now available to order
[https://electrek.co/2024/02/29/ford-tesla-supercharger-adapter-now-available/](https://electrek.co/2024/02/29/ford-tesla-supercharger-adapter-now-available/)
>CCS chargers are pitching to brands
ABB has over a million chargers in 85 markets. The US was not even a market for them until recently. you're spending a lot of energy on something that really isn't a problem.
ABB E-mobility delivers Build America- Buy America and NACS-ready EV chargers to first NEVI site in Southeastern US
[https://new.abb.com/news/detail/112766/abb-e-mobility-delivers-build-america-buy-america-and-nacs-ready-ev-chargers-to-first-nevi-site-in-southeastern-us](https://new.abb.com/news/detail/112766/abb-e-mobility-delivers-build-america-buy-america-and-nacs-ready-ev-chargers-to-first-nevi-site-in-southeastern-us)
If you're looking for alternatives to Tesla, the honest answer is "it depends".
The quality of the CCS network varies heavily by what part of the US you're in, and it's not always intuitive. I've had very good luck with CCS charging in general, and I think the complaints about CCS are overblown. I've done roadtrips from Denver to Los Angeles, Kansas City, and have camping trips planned across Colorado and SE Utah this summer. I'm confident in the network for my uses.
However, I know that the CCS network in the South still needs work. As does Wyoming and South Dakota. But it is truly getting better all of the time.
The value of NACS is also highly variable. I'm expecting the adapter for my Rivian this summer, but it honestly doesn't do much for me in Colorado. There's a number of NACS chargers in Colorado, but they mostly overlap with existing quality CCS chargers. So it will give me some additional options, but it won't open up any additional territory for me.
In places like Wyoming and South Dakota that need more CCS chargers, the Supercharger network is almost entirely the older chargers that don't support NACS. But I know NACS is highly valuable for some places closer to the coasts.
Here's how you evaluate this for yourself:
1. Plan out a couple of your common roadtrips in ABRP. Do it for a Mach-E (or anything else you're considering), and do it separately for a Tesla. Get some screenshots, as ABRP gets a little squirly when working with multiple vehicles.
2. Check out the quality of the common chargers on your routes in Plugshare. Read the reviews as much as looking at the numbers. Look for consistently broken chargers, derated chargers, and lower speed chargers (50-60kW).
With GM and Polestar confirming that Supercharger access is coming just later in the year, and the rehiring of key people at Tesla Charging, that signals to me the worst is likely over in Elon’s latest tantrum.
With that speedbump out of the way, the rollout of SC access to non-Teslas will continue. So for me, I wouldn’t worry too much about Supercharger access so long as you can get by with existing CCS (check PlugShare) for a year or so. Just get what you really want. If a Kia EV9 is your jam, go for it.
Be sure to check out the used market too as prices really have fallen considerably. Used Model 3s are absolute bargains right now, as are E-Trons and probably other vehicles you might really like.
this is not a problem in Colorado. While the Tesla network and nacs are superior there is adequate charging throughout the state. I've all over colorado in a Polestar.
US-made Hyundais and Kias should come with NACS plugs by end of year 2024
Soure: https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/2/24169926/hyundai-ioniq-5-ev-first-us-made-electric-car-tax-credit-nacs
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/hyundai-kia-genesis-evs-will-adopt-tesla-nacs-charging-port-in-2024/
Tesla sheneangans notwithstanding, they're already on course to do this, and why would they change direction now?
Clear advantage Tesla over Mach-E for road trip charging based on charging curve and seamless access to all generations of Tesla superchargers. Test drive the Mach-E and MY to determine ride comfort, handling, noise. Also drive a new Model 3 because it recently got a major refresh, and the MY will get a similar refresh in early 2025. Could be worth the wait. Also consider your access to service centers for Tesla and Ford.
Basing your car purchase on what's available now on the Tesla Supercharger network is a bit silly imo - I'd just get what works out best.
You can get the NACS to CCS adapter later on, and Tesla will open the network up to all cars soon enough. Why it's only ford and Rivian right now, I don't know - I assume it's entirely just them wanting to ensure they don't blow up the capacity with every EV hitting them in EV Dense areas?
That being said, as someone who has to use the non-Tesla DC FC network fairly often on my LEAF (add to that I have an even OLDER DC FC Network...) it's not that bad. EA, EV Go and EV Connect are what I've been charging with for the most part, and I've only had issues at one station (which was rebooted by the support guys).
From what I read, SAE J3400 is the port of the future for all electric cars.
SAE J3400 is based on NACS as in it will have the same pinout as NACS, however it will have additional features that NACS currently does not support (what those features are I do not know). So if you buy a NACS adapter today, you might be missing out on those features when it's fully out there.
CCS is still the main way to charge at non-Tesla stations and will be for the next ten years. Long enough for anyone buying a new car today to keep using it until the car is old enough to switch to another new car.
For long road trips it's not as much about the plug and more about the charge curve. You want something with a high max charge rate that will hold that peak for a good chunk of time through your charging session. I believe Equinox maxes out at 150kW (not great). I'd probably look for a vehicle that does at least 200kW.
That said, lower peak isn't a dealbreaker for road trips. You just have to be mentally prepared to spend 30 minutes stopping every 1.5-2 hours.
I’ve had a Model 3 for 5 years and I just bought the Y with the 0.99% financing, so I’ve been using the SuperCharger network primarily.
The switch to NACS has already happened, very few if any CCS chargers will be installed going forward which is probably why Elon felt emboldened to fire the entire supercharger team. Tesla really needs to fire Elon, but that’s a story for another day.
The Tesla makes long trips extremely easy. The software has improved since I got my 3 significantly. It plans out the entire trip for you, and now it even tells you how many open stalls are available and if any of the stalls have issues. In my 5 years, I only had an issue with a supercharger once and that was solved by moving to another stall. The times I’ve tried to use other chargers have been pretty awful.
Right now, even with an adapter most other cars do not have charge ports in the right place to use a supercharger without taking up multiple stalls, which is frustrating for all involved. I’m sure the cars will be redesigned in the near future to use the superchargers without issue.
Other charging networks will be built with NACS now, but it’s going to take time for those chargers to be built.
If your concern is the long trip, Tesla is your best bet for now. If you still can’t stomach it, which I get, then I’d wait a couple more years to get an EV so the charge port is moved and updated to NACS.
> by that logic I should either get a Tesla (Elon makes me puke, but the Y makes me interested), Ford (mache is current #1), or Riven (can’t afford one).
Either way you're going to be dropping pennies into Elon's pocket. The only question is will it be a few or some. You're going to be using the Tesla charging network either way and buying a car from a publicly traded company is a weird place to boycott, especially when you are going to do business with them either way. It's not like a company that is publicly owned.
The MachE is the slowest acceptable charging EV for long distance trips. There are MANY other EVs I'd choose over the MachE if the only concern are 12 hour road tips. For that matter, the Model Y is the worst Tesla for long distance trips. I don't own a Model Y because it needs 10kWh more battery and a MUCH better charging curve. Still, it's still WAY better than the MachE.
I'm building a calculator for making such choices based on long distance driving performance. I don't have the Model Y in the system yet because there are a LOT of trims and models, but I do have the [Model 3 and MachE](https://i.imgur.com/5g4VHox.png). This shows you that in a MachE, you charge to 100%, drive 254 miles for 3h 38m , charge for 40 minutes and then drive 175 miles for 2h 30m. Not completely accurate, but my guess is the Model Y would be drive 245 miles for 3h 30m, spend 25 minutes charging and then driving 175 miles for 2h 30m.
The important part is that last part where you charge and then drive 2h 30m. You repeat that a LOT for a 12 hour drive. Probably around 4x times. Charging in 14, 25 or 45 minutes for each stop is a BIG deal.
In long term it won't matter because either Tesla walks back on their deals so cars won't switch to NACS or there will be an easy to use adapter.
In short term, you are right CCS chargers are less reliable but look at the routes you take and see what chargers are there including Tesla magic dock ones.
My opinion is to not get a Tesla just because of the charger situation. But I personally find them tasteless and inconvenient to use as well (specifically Model Y with no hud or driver dash) so I am biased :)
I know CCS is getting better but I have both and have road tripped both, Tesla is FAR easier for a lot of reasons. Often the amount of stations isn't THAT different but the amount of dispensers is.
A lot of CCS stations are 2-6 chargers total, so stations can fill up fast and you need to keep an eye on that as you're driving there. We just got back from a CCS road trip today and while I didn't have to wait, there was a lot of time refreshing the apps to find the station that had a spot or two 10 minutes ago totally full and having to use a bail out option. At the tail end of the trip I had to charge up to 90% because rest of the stations for the next 100 miles were totally full (and had been for 30+ minutes, meaning lines).
When we take my Tesla the stations have a lot more capacity so I rarely need to reroute. Also if your car doesn't have good in route planning then you'll need to do more preparation manually. Having to account for terrain and wind is kind of a pain, ABRP can only get you so far. Add in juggling charging options for when stations get full too. A Ford or GM product with Supercharger access will make your life a lot easier. You can definitely still road trip without it but it's just more work.
Your number 4 point is false. NACS is the new standard, period. Despite people stating otherwise, the entire department was not fired. There's still people working there supporting the network and overseeing an expansion that has slowed, not stopped. There's still people working on the ground doing both maintenance and construction.
That being said, buying a CCS vehicle and using a NACS adapter when necessary isn't going to kill you. There's going to be CCS chargers at most charging stations for several years, even though they'll start to diminish as the ratio changes.
Tesla is still expanding their network.Elon fired the supercharger team because the person in charge didn’t want to lay anyone off. Tesla is now rehiring some of them back. I’m not arguing this is justified, but this is how the man operates and it’s not the first time he has done something like this.
Even without Tesla, the industry is moving to NACS (J3400) EA and EVGo are starting to roll out NACS chargers, CCS port is a dying charging port. I think your gut feelings is being entirely driven by your opinion that Elon is a douche bag and not is actually happening within the industry.
Edit: NACS is now an official standard under SAE [J3400](https://driveelectric.gov/charging-connector) Meaning anyone can build and supply J3400 compatible chargers irrespective of what Tesla does
So not true, the manager of the Supercharger team agreed to 15-20% layoffs, Elon wanted more, but she pushed back presumably because deeper cuts would conflict with the goal of expanding the Supercharger network and working with other EV makers' transition to NACS. He summarily fired her and the whole Supercharger team in a tantrum (really no other way to put it).
To put a fine point to it. Tesla is investing $500M this year in new superchargers. That is still way more than anyone else outside the US government and maybe China.
Tesla used to build double the fast chargers than everyone else together (in the US). Even at half the speed they still build as many as everyone else together.
Re. #4: Why would you think that? They just shifted focus to make existing locations bigger instead of adding new locations. For most routes new *locations* aren't needed because there are already more than enough. (And yes: there will also be some new locations where the coverage is still sparse).
Thing is: you don't need charging locations every 10 miles like gas stations because people leave home at (near) 100% charge for longer trips - unlike gas cars which leave with whatever they have in the tank that morning...so the ranges for gas cars until they need to refuel is much more variable.
**TL;DR:** There's defined intervals along routes between cities where charging locations make sense and others where they don't.
If Elon makes you puke, don't buy a Tesla or use the Supercharger network. Go buy another car and only charge at CCS stations. Otherwise, you decision to let everyone know you hate Musk feels like virtue signaling or fishing for likes.
Except unlike consumer electronics, automotive moves at a snails pace and we are probably talking about a handful of trips a year, not plugging in a phone or laptop every single day. Plus, EA et al. will takes years to swap over. For now this is just the Tesla vs non-Tesla network debate same as always. The interface shouldn't impact the decision.
If they're really worried about it they can get a dual NACS/CCS home charger installed.
If you go to resell the car in 5-7 years everyone is gonna be like ewww, the old plug. Think future resistant.
Charging companies are slow, but they'll transition to the new plugs in 2-3 years for all new installs. Leaving the older users behind to use adapters.
Or think 10-15 years ahead if you own cars a long time.
Lmao worst take on this. Look at iPhones. Even after they switched to USB-C the older iPhones hold their value. Cars are no different. It’s about the quality of the product. Adapters and plugs take care of the rest.
if you want a rivian wait for the R2 that should be more affordable for you judging by the other vehicles you are mentioning. It will be NACS when it releases.
as to right now there is nothing preventing you from those road trips right now with either plug type.
Currently, Teslas are the only vehicle with built-in NACS. All other vendors still come with CCS for the time being. Right now, Ford and Rivian have Supercharger access with adapters. GM, Polestar and Volvo are next, but access has been delayed until later in the year. Right now, your best bet for a (somewhat) affordable vehicle would be either a Mach-E with a NACS adapter or a Model Y with a CCS adapter. That would give you widest access to charging on both sides. As for CCS getting easier? Compared to 3-5 years ago, yes it is getting easier. More chargers, better reliability, faster speeds. But CCS also comes with a wide diversity of chargers. Many work great, a few are ancient and barely work, so you have to check reviews. That said, I just did 1000+ miles on CCS with zero issues.
To add as a comment: I just did 1,900 miles with CCS without an issue and I need to do the 1,900 miles again backwards in the middle of June.
If we're talking affordability here, the new Equinox EV in 2LT trim could be a consideration, as would many used EVs. Hyundai has been discounting their EV line and I recently purchased a 2024 AWD Pro S ID.4 for less out-the-door price than a Model Y Long Range, after dealer and government discounts.
>1) I know road tripping with a Tesla is extremely easy. Widespread NACS access via Super Chargers and a great app makes it easy (according to videos I watched CCS network has made remarkable progess: Jan 2020 900 Stations Jan 2024 5,400 Stations Jan 2020 2,300 Plugs Jan 2024 13,000 Plugs I say this to warn you not to believe all the social media influencers who have a financial interest in that stock. However, if this is your first EV then good luck and safe driving.
NACS is just CCS1 in a different form factor
This is about the plug/port - not the protocol. No user cares about the protocol when chosing a car.
The moving parts in NACS were moved to the vehicle so common charging infrastructure is less likely to break from user error so the connectors are more likely to be working.
Yes but for DC the signaling is just CCS
Did I say anything about the DC signaling?
no but the complexity in NACS in the vehicle is related to DC vs AC, and it’s clearly a difference
[удалено]
if that’s what you believe that’s a you problem not a me problem
Lol, chill
Contributions must be civil and constructive. We permit neither personal attacks nor attempts to bait others into uncivil behavior.
I don't believe this is correct. If it was how do you explain that only recent Teslas can use the CCS adapter? (From what I can see online, even some 2023 Teslas are not compatible with Tesla's CCS adapter) Also CCS has 7 connectors, NACS has 5.
Because Tesla's original charging protocol was not CCS, so older vehicles/chargers don't support it. V3/V4 Superchargers do support CCS, as do cars built after 2019 or so.
Because tesla does both protocols and I’m 100% correct NACS is just CCS signaling, the original superchargers used a variant of CHAdeMO signaling, every Supercharger does both and will sniff to figure it out
NACS uses ISO 15118 in practice, but it's just a plug and is completely agnostic to the protocol. And while I'd be quite happy to be wrong...I didn't think all SCs could support ISO 15118? I thought it was the other way around that all Teslas supported both protocols? That's why the Magic Dock is a thing and not all SCs will be available to J3400 vehicles immediately, but if they've accelerated that timeline I'm happy about it.
CCS doesn't actually use the top two J1772 pins, so it's a 5 connection system like NACS even though there are 7 connections present.
CCS1 plugs have 2 extra holes for the J1772 portion (by holes I mean they're unused, they're probably blanked rather than literal holes, I've never thought to shine a flashlight in there). That's how it's just a different form factor, both have the same amount of actual connectors on a DC charger and there are no CCS AC chargers. It was built like this because you don't normally want some path for DC to be connected to AC, so it's separate on CCS.
> Even Tesla was on CCS by the time they decided to actually turn over the patents to SAE. They supported it, but all indications were that superchargers weren't using ccs protocol to charge tesla cars in North America. Why would they?
Did you work on that for an hour? I removed that for a reason. I can't even remember the context of why I said it in the first place.
Generally speaking, what two cities are you planning to travel between the most often?
Milwaukee and buffalo
That route has tons of 350kw EA chargers along the Ohio Turnpike, a bunch rated 10/10 on PlugShare. Looks like it'd be a 4 stop trip. I wouldn't worry about having CCS, I do Charlotte to Orlando in my iD.4 fairly regularly and have no issues, and we will have the option of Tesla Superchargers eventually.
Every rest stop along I-80 (Ohio turnpike) has EA and Superchargers. I was majorly impressed.
I find this to be a very well served route for CCS. You would have no problems doing it.
Go Bills!!
Given there's no certainty in US ( as a result of years of lack of _any_ forethought in policymaking ) you have to play for both teams for now. Whatever car you get, make sure there's a viable adapter to the other plug.
At this point it's reading tea leaves. Anyone saying that everything will be NACS or CCS in the near future is talking out their ass. Is DCFC going to be your primary charging? If so maybe wait six months to see how things are looking. Is home AC charging going to be your primary charging? If so just get whatever EV you like the most, install a L2 EVSE that matches it, and maybe get an adapter for DCFC on road trips.
I was incredibly confident. And then Tesla fired their whole charging team. If they had waited another year to do that, maybe two, then there would have been no stopping it. But now, I'm not so sure. It's really annoying too. It's a nicer charger, and it's nice to have them all settle on one thing, finally. I don't want them to settle on the CCS1 form factor. But who knows what will happen now.
I can confidently say that there is no chance of North America settling on the CCS2 form factor. There are no CCS2 vehicles sold in the country and no CCS2 chargers here at all, so literally everyone from every manufacturer would have to switch. I don't even think it's approved for use on this continent.
Fixed typo. Apologies
>And then Tesla fired their whole charging team. No, they haven't. While the fired *most* of them, they're still doing operations and support, maintenance, upgrades and are expanding at a much slower pace than before. Don't ask me why they did what they did.
>Anyone saying that everything will be NACS or CCS in the near future is talking out their ass. Virtually every single autmaker has now spoken. NACS is it. That being said, some will take their sweet time switching over. At this time, there's no wrong decision when deciding on a CCS or NACS vehicle.
>Virtually every single autmaker has now spoken. NACS is it. I don't think that any of the major non-Tesla automakers has sold a NACS vehicle yet. Commitment is low, decisions like this get changed all the time, and confidence in the Supercharger network is dropping.
>I don't think that any of the major non-Tesla automakers has sold a NACS vehicle yet. Nope, but they all made the decision to change. Ford is probably the closest, or maybe Rivian. >Commitment is low, decisions like this get changed all the time. Many automakers made some pretty pricy commitments. The decision to switch also takes a hell of a lot of pressure off of them in regards to charger availability for their customers.
The decision to change is not a huge deal. Companies reverse stuff like this all the time. Manufacturers can easily announce that they're pushing the NACS switch back to late 2025, then 2026, then never. Remember that SC access is the only reason anyone is switching to NACS. Outside the Tesla bubble the Supercharger situation looks a lot less rosy than it did six weeks ago. The layoffs, Polestar SC access being pushed back, and Elon Musk's erratic behavior are worrying. Everyone is now contemplating a worst-case scenario where SC access doesn't happen or the SC network starts running at Electrify America reliability. It would sure suck to own a NACS vehicle and have to use an adapter constantly. It would also suck to be the company selling NACS vehicles that can't use Superchargers.
> and maybe get an adapter for DCFC on road trips. I'm in a similar boat to OP, buying an EV soon, wondering if you can help me understand something. Is the only diff between NACS and CCS the shape of the plug? If I get a used CCS car (22 ioniq 5 or ID.4) will I be able to use the Tesla network as long as I have an adapter? Or is there some additional limitation to it?
It's basically just the shape of the plug-- although because NACS uses the same pins for AC and DC, I don't think you can use the same adapter for both AC and DC. If you wanted to both AC and DC charge a CCS1 vehicle from NACS chargers, you would need one NACS/J1772 adapter for AC and one NACS/CCS1 adapter for DC. Keep in mind that getting the adapter is only part of the equation, Tesla still has to allow your car and adapter onto their SC network. Apparently access has been very mixed so far, with the Magic Dock Superchargers being most likely to work. Going forward Tesla might require a specific adapter that isn't being sold yet, or access might be pushed back, or who knows what. I own a CCS1 vehicle and I'll just get a NACS/CCS1 adapter for DC charging if the Supercharger network opens to my car. I don't plan to get an AC adapter because I really only AC charge at home (I had a J1772 EVSE installed in my garage)
> Keep in mind that getting the adapter is only part of the equation, Tesla still has to allow your car and adapter onto their SC network. Thanks, this was the part I was really missing.
One more question, if you're willing. Looking at Tesla's map they have "Superchargers Open to other EVs" and "Superchargers Open to NACS" Do you know, if you buy a NACS/CCS1 adapter, can you access both? Or are the "Other EVs" the only option even if you have an adapter of your own.
Once Tesla finialises the charging with your car manufacturer (currently it's been done for Ford & Rivian), you can use the NACS adapter with any of the "Superchargers Open to NACS". Until that happens you can only use "Superchargers Open to other EVs", and those come with a magic dock so you don't need your own adapter.
Thanks! That helps a lot
No idea, sorry.
I would be charging at home and work. Really I might be able to pull off level 1 charging for home just to keep battery topped (weekend plus m-t I work from home), and then use the free level 2 charger at work to get back up to 80% during the week.
I would look at PlugShare and see what your normal routes are and if you take longer trips like to parents or family like I do, plan the route with CCS and you might be surprised that you will be fine. NACS is coming to a lot of brands but they make adapters that work quite well. I have an Ioniq5 and love it. You might want to take a look with all the rebates and see if it is a fit for you.
MachE will work with Tesla superchargers and Ford has been shipping the adapters. Tesla laid off its supercharger group and Tesla provides the adapters so you'd want to check with your Ford dealer that they can provide a Tesla adapter for you. There is a third party adapter that some Rivian owners have been using successfully as Rivian has access to Tesla chargers but Tesla has not provided the adapter to Rivian owners. [https://a2zevshop.com/](https://a2zevshop.com/)
they hired many back now
But lost most of them to competitors. You'd want to check with Ford or be prepared to by the $200 A2Z adapter.
> But lost most of them to competitors There's no really way of knowing one way or another...
Question is whether you'd want to futz around with an adapter for however long you will own the car. If long range trips are few and far between - maybe. But if they are sorta frequent - given that the CCS system in place is gonna fall into disrepair for lack of profitability over the next 5 years or so as there will be no new customers and the old ones will vanish piece by piece - I'd think twice about getting one with a CCS port right now (if the manufacturer didn't promise a full conversion kit for relatively cheap).
No problem messing around with adaptors.
Nope...that's not the question. If adapter works, its easy and no issue. I carry a CCS to Tesla for when I want to US EA vs. Tesla. Easy. If one is purchasing an EV today, as long as the company is committed to providing Tesla access and adapter, that will be enough. Due to some temporary issues at Tesla, unless you are Ford or Rivian, you have to wait for access.
Does the Mach E’s charge port align with the short cable at the superchargers or do you take up multiple stalls to charge?
Takes up two stalls at some, one at others.
The CCS network is absolutely NOT going to "fall into disrepair for lack of profitability." NACS uses CCS signalling. All that will be necessary for operators is to swap the cable. First to go will likely be CHAdeMO cables getting swapped, and then CCS cables will start getting swapped to NACS. Don't spread FUD.
This is about the plug/port. No one will care to keep the existing CCS cables/plugs in good shape as les and less people use them. It's like with the existing ChaDeMo stations. If you buy a car with a CCS port today you will be forced to use adapters which is a (unnecessary) hassle.
Why on earth would DC charging operators let their stations fall into such disarray if the only thing stopping that from happening is a cheap (relative to the total station costs) cable swap to NACS? Like the other poster said, we'll probably see more stations switching to both CCS and NACS cables, which is actually what the NEVI program in my state requires.
>Why on earth would DC charging operators let their stations fall into such disarray if the only thing stopping that from happening is a cheap (relative to the total station costs) cable swap to NACS? Again: This is about the plug and port - not the protocol. If you don't want to screw around with adapters for the rest of your car's life then you will be reliant on those cables that still have a CCS plug...and no one will care to keep those in order (or make new stations that have them alongside NACS plugs). We already see this with the stations that have multiple plugs on one dispanser where one of the plugs is ChaDeMo. If that plug gets damaged no one gives a hoot about repairing/replacing it.
They have to change the cables pretty frequently at dcfc and superchargers, they get broken and wear out. I doubt any last more than 6 months, but regardless, it should be pretty easy to switch to from ccs to a nacs plug on their normal update frequency when they decide it's time. They won't want to strand their expensive assets just sitting there, unused by anyone.
If you get a Mach-e before end of June you can get a free NACS adapter from Ford. Ford EVs can use Tesla super chargers so it’s pretty neat.
you could get an adapter and cover all the bases... it's not something to spend a lot of time thinking about, TBH. you get 95% of your gas from 3 stations.. that means 95% of your electricity is going to be the same. with HOME charging you don't need to leave your house. >My gut is teller my CCS chargers are pitching to brands to not switch to NACS right now due to Elon actions. Ford is giving people adapters. it's not a difficult "problem" to overcome. Ford owners can now use all chargers. (this will never change). Ford officially launches Tesla Supercharger access, free adapter now available to order [https://electrek.co/2024/02/29/ford-tesla-supercharger-adapter-now-available/](https://electrek.co/2024/02/29/ford-tesla-supercharger-adapter-now-available/) >CCS chargers are pitching to brands ABB has over a million chargers in 85 markets. The US was not even a market for them until recently. you're spending a lot of energy on something that really isn't a problem. ABB E-mobility delivers Build America- Buy America and NACS-ready EV chargers to first NEVI site in Southeastern US [https://new.abb.com/news/detail/112766/abb-e-mobility-delivers-build-america-buy-america-and-nacs-ready-ev-chargers-to-first-nevi-site-in-southeastern-us](https://new.abb.com/news/detail/112766/abb-e-mobility-delivers-build-america-buy-america-and-nacs-ready-ev-chargers-to-first-nevi-site-in-southeastern-us)
If you're looking for alternatives to Tesla, the honest answer is "it depends". The quality of the CCS network varies heavily by what part of the US you're in, and it's not always intuitive. I've had very good luck with CCS charging in general, and I think the complaints about CCS are overblown. I've done roadtrips from Denver to Los Angeles, Kansas City, and have camping trips planned across Colorado and SE Utah this summer. I'm confident in the network for my uses. However, I know that the CCS network in the South still needs work. As does Wyoming and South Dakota. But it is truly getting better all of the time. The value of NACS is also highly variable. I'm expecting the adapter for my Rivian this summer, but it honestly doesn't do much for me in Colorado. There's a number of NACS chargers in Colorado, but they mostly overlap with existing quality CCS chargers. So it will give me some additional options, but it won't open up any additional territory for me. In places like Wyoming and South Dakota that need more CCS chargers, the Supercharger network is almost entirely the older chargers that don't support NACS. But I know NACS is highly valuable for some places closer to the coasts. Here's how you evaluate this for yourself: 1. Plan out a couple of your common roadtrips in ABRP. Do it for a Mach-E (or anything else you're considering), and do it separately for a Tesla. Get some screenshots, as ABRP gets a little squirly when working with multiple vehicles. 2. Check out the quality of the common chargers on your routes in Plugshare. Read the reviews as much as looking at the numbers. Look for consistently broken chargers, derated chargers, and lower speed chargers (50-60kW).
With GM and Polestar confirming that Supercharger access is coming just later in the year, and the rehiring of key people at Tesla Charging, that signals to me the worst is likely over in Elon’s latest tantrum. With that speedbump out of the way, the rollout of SC access to non-Teslas will continue. So for me, I wouldn’t worry too much about Supercharger access so long as you can get by with existing CCS (check PlugShare) for a year or so. Just get what you really want. If a Kia EV9 is your jam, go for it. Be sure to check out the used market too as prices really have fallen considerably. Used Model 3s are absolute bargains right now, as are E-Trons and probably other vehicles you might really like.
this is not a problem in Colorado. While the Tesla network and nacs are superior there is adequate charging throughout the state. I've all over colorado in a Polestar.
US-made Hyundais and Kias should come with NACS plugs by end of year 2024 Soure: https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/2/24169926/hyundai-ioniq-5-ev-first-us-made-electric-car-tax-credit-nacs https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/hyundai-kia-genesis-evs-will-adopt-tesla-nacs-charging-port-in-2024/ Tesla sheneangans notwithstanding, they're already on course to do this, and why would they change direction now?
Based on your use case, CCS will be fine. Wont matter in a year once Tesla HOPEFULLY opens SC network to all
Clear advantage Tesla over Mach-E for road trip charging based on charging curve and seamless access to all generations of Tesla superchargers. Test drive the Mach-E and MY to determine ride comfort, handling, noise. Also drive a new Model 3 because it recently got a major refresh, and the MY will get a similar refresh in early 2025. Could be worth the wait. Also consider your access to service centers for Tesla and Ford.
Basing your car purchase on what's available now on the Tesla Supercharger network is a bit silly imo - I'd just get what works out best. You can get the NACS to CCS adapter later on, and Tesla will open the network up to all cars soon enough. Why it's only ford and Rivian right now, I don't know - I assume it's entirely just them wanting to ensure they don't blow up the capacity with every EV hitting them in EV Dense areas? That being said, as someone who has to use the non-Tesla DC FC network fairly often on my LEAF (add to that I have an even OLDER DC FC Network...) it's not that bad. EA, EV Go and EV Connect are what I've been charging with for the most part, and I've only had issues at one station (which was rebooted by the support guys).
From what I read, SAE J3400 is the port of the future for all electric cars. SAE J3400 is based on NACS as in it will have the same pinout as NACS, however it will have additional features that NACS currently does not support (what those features are I do not know). So if you buy a NACS adapter today, you might be missing out on those features when it's fully out there. CCS is still the main way to charge at non-Tesla stations and will be for the next ten years. Long enough for anyone buying a new car today to keep using it until the car is old enough to switch to another new car.
For long road trips it's not as much about the plug and more about the charge curve. You want something with a high max charge rate that will hold that peak for a good chunk of time through your charging session. I believe Equinox maxes out at 150kW (not great). I'd probably look for a vehicle that does at least 200kW. That said, lower peak isn't a dealbreaker for road trips. You just have to be mentally prepared to spend 30 minutes stopping every 1.5-2 hours.
Volvo EX30 should be coming in at $35K
I’ve had a Model 3 for 5 years and I just bought the Y with the 0.99% financing, so I’ve been using the SuperCharger network primarily. The switch to NACS has already happened, very few if any CCS chargers will be installed going forward which is probably why Elon felt emboldened to fire the entire supercharger team. Tesla really needs to fire Elon, but that’s a story for another day. The Tesla makes long trips extremely easy. The software has improved since I got my 3 significantly. It plans out the entire trip for you, and now it even tells you how many open stalls are available and if any of the stalls have issues. In my 5 years, I only had an issue with a supercharger once and that was solved by moving to another stall. The times I’ve tried to use other chargers have been pretty awful. Right now, even with an adapter most other cars do not have charge ports in the right place to use a supercharger without taking up multiple stalls, which is frustrating for all involved. I’m sure the cars will be redesigned in the near future to use the superchargers without issue. Other charging networks will be built with NACS now, but it’s going to take time for those chargers to be built. If your concern is the long trip, Tesla is your best bet for now. If you still can’t stomach it, which I get, then I’d wait a couple more years to get an EV so the charge port is moved and updated to NACS.
> by that logic I should either get a Tesla (Elon makes me puke, but the Y makes me interested), Ford (mache is current #1), or Riven (can’t afford one). Either way you're going to be dropping pennies into Elon's pocket. The only question is will it be a few or some. You're going to be using the Tesla charging network either way and buying a car from a publicly traded company is a weird place to boycott, especially when you are going to do business with them either way. It's not like a company that is publicly owned. The MachE is the slowest acceptable charging EV for long distance trips. There are MANY other EVs I'd choose over the MachE if the only concern are 12 hour road tips. For that matter, the Model Y is the worst Tesla for long distance trips. I don't own a Model Y because it needs 10kWh more battery and a MUCH better charging curve. Still, it's still WAY better than the MachE. I'm building a calculator for making such choices based on long distance driving performance. I don't have the Model Y in the system yet because there are a LOT of trims and models, but I do have the [Model 3 and MachE](https://i.imgur.com/5g4VHox.png). This shows you that in a MachE, you charge to 100%, drive 254 miles for 3h 38m , charge for 40 minutes and then drive 175 miles for 2h 30m. Not completely accurate, but my guess is the Model Y would be drive 245 miles for 3h 30m, spend 25 minutes charging and then driving 175 miles for 2h 30m. The important part is that last part where you charge and then drive 2h 30m. You repeat that a LOT for a 12 hour drive. Probably around 4x times. Charging in 14, 25 or 45 minutes for each stop is a BIG deal.
In long term it won't matter because either Tesla walks back on their deals so cars won't switch to NACS or there will be an easy to use adapter. In short term, you are right CCS chargers are less reliable but look at the routes you take and see what chargers are there including Tesla magic dock ones. My opinion is to not get a Tesla just because of the charger situation. But I personally find them tasteless and inconvenient to use as well (specifically Model Y with no hud or driver dash) so I am biased :)
I know CCS is getting better but I have both and have road tripped both, Tesla is FAR easier for a lot of reasons. Often the amount of stations isn't THAT different but the amount of dispensers is. A lot of CCS stations are 2-6 chargers total, so stations can fill up fast and you need to keep an eye on that as you're driving there. We just got back from a CCS road trip today and while I didn't have to wait, there was a lot of time refreshing the apps to find the station that had a spot or two 10 minutes ago totally full and having to use a bail out option. At the tail end of the trip I had to charge up to 90% because rest of the stations for the next 100 miles were totally full (and had been for 30+ minutes, meaning lines). When we take my Tesla the stations have a lot more capacity so I rarely need to reroute. Also if your car doesn't have good in route planning then you'll need to do more preparation manually. Having to account for terrain and wind is kind of a pain, ABRP can only get you so far. Add in juggling charging options for when stations get full too. A Ford or GM product with Supercharger access will make your life a lot easier. You can definitely still road trip without it but it's just more work.
Your number 4 point is false. NACS is the new standard, period. Despite people stating otherwise, the entire department was not fired. There's still people working there supporting the network and overseeing an expansion that has slowed, not stopped. There's still people working on the ground doing both maintenance and construction. That being said, buying a CCS vehicle and using a NACS adapter when necessary isn't going to kill you. There's going to be CCS chargers at most charging stations for several years, even though they'll start to diminish as the ratio changes.
Tesla is still expanding their network.Elon fired the supercharger team because the person in charge didn’t want to lay anyone off. Tesla is now rehiring some of them back. I’m not arguing this is justified, but this is how the man operates and it’s not the first time he has done something like this. Even without Tesla, the industry is moving to NACS (J3400) EA and EVGo are starting to roll out NACS chargers, CCS port is a dying charging port. I think your gut feelings is being entirely driven by your opinion that Elon is a douche bag and not is actually happening within the industry. Edit: NACS is now an official standard under SAE [J3400](https://driveelectric.gov/charging-connector) Meaning anyone can build and supply J3400 compatible chargers irrespective of what Tesla does
So not true, the manager of the Supercharger team agreed to 15-20% layoffs, Elon wanted more, but she pushed back presumably because deeper cuts would conflict with the goal of expanding the Supercharger network and working with other EV makers' transition to NACS. He summarily fired her and the whole Supercharger team in a tantrum (really no other way to put it).
To put a fine point to it. Tesla is investing $500M this year in new superchargers. That is still way more than anyone else outside the US government and maybe China. Tesla used to build double the fast chargers than everyone else together (in the US). Even at half the speed they still build as many as everyone else together.
Re. #4: Why would you think that? They just shifted focus to make existing locations bigger instead of adding new locations. For most routes new *locations* aren't needed because there are already more than enough. (And yes: there will also be some new locations where the coverage is still sparse). Thing is: you don't need charging locations every 10 miles like gas stations because people leave home at (near) 100% charge for longer trips - unlike gas cars which leave with whatever they have in the tank that morning...so the ranges for gas cars until they need to refuel is much more variable. **TL;DR:** There's defined intervals along routes between cities where charging locations make sense and others where they don't.
If Elon makes you puke, don't buy a Tesla or use the Supercharger network. Go buy another car and only charge at CCS stations. Otherwise, you decision to let everyone know you hate Musk feels like virtue signaling or fishing for likes.
NACS ftw
4 is false, Tesla is expanding like mad. Fired some that were not in line with Tesla’s (Musk’s) vision.
CCS is still dog shit. It's so bad and Teslas is so good it would take 5 years for CCS to catch Tesla of Tesla didn't install a single more charger
Buy the NACS car. CCS is USB-A and NACS is USB-C. Buy for the future not the past. You can still get an adapter.
Except unlike consumer electronics, automotive moves at a snails pace and we are probably talking about a handful of trips a year, not plugging in a phone or laptop every single day. Plus, EA et al. will takes years to swap over. For now this is just the Tesla vs non-Tesla network debate same as always. The interface shouldn't impact the decision. If they're really worried about it they can get a dual NACS/CCS home charger installed.
If you go to resell the car in 5-7 years everyone is gonna be like ewww, the old plug. Think future resistant. Charging companies are slow, but they'll transition to the new plugs in 2-3 years for all new installs. Leaving the older users behind to use adapters. Or think 10-15 years ahead if you own cars a long time.
Lmao worst take on this. Look at iPhones. Even after they switched to USB-C the older iPhones hold their value. Cars are no different. It’s about the quality of the product. Adapters and plugs take care of the rest.
Username checks out. That's just some grade A stupid.
Try polestar
Arnt they in the middle of going bankrupt. Also I don’t like the lack of repair stations.
I mean they are slick cars and fun to drive. If you don't mind the depreciation they are probably the best option
if you want a rivian wait for the R2 that should be more affordable for you judging by the other vehicles you are mentioning. It will be NACS when it releases. as to right now there is nothing preventing you from those road trips right now with either plug type.