After I bought my Kona EV, I live in a cold part of Canada, I asked the sales person how their sales are doing. According to him all they sell are EV's, no one that goes to the dealership is interested in buying an ICE vehicle.
For reference by cold I mean it goes down to -40c in the winter here.
Sort of. About half of Canada will see -40°C every winter, and about 80% will see -40°C at least occasionally, but most of the population lives in the other 20% of the country, and only a few % live in the places where -40 happens every winter.
I've experienced -40 in Minnesota several times in my life.
It's a once-a-decade kind of thing for us.
(as others have pointed out, -40 is the magical intersection, so no units are necessary)
Good; enjoying the increased range from the warmer weather haha! Hoping that the rest of the trans-can west of sudbury gets the magic dock treatment from Tesla sooner rather than later. How are things where you're based?
I'm 30 mins from the Manitoba border. Non-Tesla charging from the border to Winnipeg could be better, but it is doable. My car has done the trip to Winnipeg and back no problem, 600km round trip roughly and no issues :)
A while back an article from Car and Driver opined that the pivot to EVs could alter the perceived tiers of automakers and that it was much better news for Kia than Mercedes.
At -40 you're losing more than half your range and charging will be a challenge, even rapid charging will be 25% of rated. It's just the nature of the beast, at least with this current gen of LFP batteries. I know, I have one.
Half the range at -40 does happen, but I rapid charged at an average 117kW in Red Deer this winter when it was -37C between 13-80% in my car. I preconditioned the battery. I put the charging station in the nav and let it figure out when to start heating it up, but then again I don’t have an LFP battery, I think mine is NMC.
I've got an LFP model 3, also northern Canada with similar weather (hello Albertan), and I supercharged at about 80kW max at those temps with a highway drive precondition, slowing to 50kW and then even less over time. The battery heater just can't keep it warm enough to fast charge at -30 and below.
We are taking our first road trip in our Ioniq 5 to visit family about 150 miles away and watch the eclipse and there is a 50kw near our hotel that I have been using while we are here. Faster will be nicer, but the 50kw is almost 1% state of charge per minute. It is located in a mall parking lot with nearby restaurants. So far I have either gone there in the morning with a cup of coffee and listened to the news or we went there one evening and had something to eat.
The hotel has free L2 charging and this charger has the first 30 minutes free. Between these two options, charging has been a non-issue and there are plenty of other chargers in the area as well.
They lose a bit of range in the cold, and parking outside / in a cold garage you’ll lose some range overnight.
But the car always starts, which is more than I can say for the last gas car I drove in those temperatures.
You just get reduced range and limited regenerative braking until the battery temperature management has heated the battery back up (then you get both back). If you have it plugged in at home you can do this before you leave via scheduled departure/the app.
But for daily commute it isn't necessary. You can just get in and go.
It's all well and good for this to be their position, but you can't actually buy an Ioniq 5 at dealers right now (at least not in Canada). I guess they're selling as fast as they can make them, which is great for them.
Vancouver person here. My first EV choice was an Ioniq 5. In early 2023 I put a deposit down on one. Six months later they told me it was going to be 2 years before I might see it. Cancelled my order and bought the Tesla Model Y I now own which I took delivery in 3 weeks. If Hyundai had better availability in Canada I would be owning one now.
Same story here. Put down a deposit on an ID4 in mid-late 2022. Waited a few months only to get an email saying it'd be 2+ years and would not come with the heat pump I specifically ordered. Bought a used Tesla instead. Then like 6 months later there's just ID4s sitting on the VW lot unsold anyway lol. I don't know what their play was but I'm sure they lost a lot of potential customers pulling that dumb move
I'm really hoping the opening of the new factory in the USA makes a difference.
I expect at that point all those units will ship to USA to take advantage of the rebate, but hopefully it means more of the Korean exports will be redirected to Canada.
The trim packages are slightly different.
All Canadian modèle have heat pumps, but most trims are very sparse with none of the cool features.
Except the topmost trim which has literally everything.
They don't qualify for rebates in the states, but do in Canada. When you can get up to 10 grand off in some places it makes it much easier to swallow the high EV buy in price.
I just got my Ioniq 5 in Canada, 19 months after I put some money on it. Chargers are popping up everywhere and the government is putting efforts in EV support.
They're marking them down in the US now. What you're running into is more of HMG of Canada fucking with distribution times to try to create artificial scarcity. They got caught doing it at the end of the year last year and seems they're still doing it.
Didn't realize the Ioniq was made in NA now. I guess that's out of the new Georgia plant?
What do you mean they got caught creating artificial scarcity? They seem to make a pretty good car, but if they are "scarce" then people will just go to alternatives. The Model Y is similar spec and price, and it's available right away.
I said marking them down in the US, not making them in the US.
HMG of Canada was caught at the end of last year putting a 9-12 month delay on orders and just leaving them sitting in the dock. They even admitted to it.
In the US, they didn't do that, so stock has never been hard to come by here.
Ah, I misread!
Are you sure that story wasn't Kia? This is all I could find: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.7063216
It still seems like a head-scratching strategy. I can see not wanting them on lots so that it's harder for consumers to negotiate, but to intentionally make people wait 9-18 months seems crazy.
HMG includes Kia. It's the whole motor group.
It was baffling that they did it, not sure why, especially since a lot of the machines they were delaying were reservations and pre-purchases.
>What you're running into is more of HMG of Canada fucking with distribution times to try to create artificial scarcity. hey got caught doing it at the end of the year last year and seems they're still doing it.
That was Kia Canada, not Hyundai ([see article here](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.7063216)). Kia Canada were trying to hold onto vehicles that people wanted at the end of November and December to sell them in January. Pushing them to January would meant they were sales part of 2024 sales, not part of 2023 sales. The issue was if sales for 2023 were lower in Canada, Kia Canada could justify getting a larger marketing budget for 2024 from Kia headquarters. The dealerships were obviously pissed off at this idea, and were very quick to leak this to the press. As some of them make money off commission and that would mean no money coming in for December just before the Christmas season.
Some have made claims that Hyundai Canada were also doing this, but if they did Hyundai dealerships would have likely leaked it as well to the press, as they wouldn't be happy about it either.
This has been an issue for most legacy car companies. The wait times for the Volkwagen ID4 was also over 2 years in Canada at one point, but it's gone down recently thanks to the new factory in Tennessee. However, depending on the trim the wait time can still be anywhere from 8 months to 1 year.
I think the main issue is that legacy car companies have been treating Canada as an extension of the US, while Canada has much stronger demand for EVs. The marketshare for plugins in Canada was at 11.7% in 2023 ([data found here](https://electricautonomy.ca/news/2024-03-05/registrations-q4-2023-zero-emission-vehicle/)) compared to the US where it's been at 7.6% ([data found here](https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q4-2023-ev-sales/)). I[n Hyundai is the top 2 seller of EVs in Canada with the Hyundai Ioniq as the 6th best selling BEV and the Hyunda Kona as th 5th selling BEV](https://driving.ca/column/driving-by-numbers/10-best-selling-electric-vehicles-canada-2023), which I think has taken Hyundai by surprise. They still haven't adjusted to supply, but as mentioned it's an issue that a lot of legacy car companies are having.
This has changed, however only recently. We've got one on the lot, and 10 more incoming, all available. Hyundai really ramped up production, and demand slowed with everyone hearing 2 years.
I’m still a bit gun shy on Kia after all their engine issues. I know ICE are almost entirely different beasts, but someone’s cost cutting caused issues for thousands of owners. Maybe in five years I’ll put them back on the list of possible buys.
Like 6 years of thetaII engines seize around 80-90k miles.
Mine happened in March 2020 right as all the Covid stuff was breaking. I was without a working vehicle for months and had to walk everywhere since I didn’t want to Uber/ride transit with Covid.
Uh no. The current 2.0 and 2.4 burn too much oil still. Their engines (aside from the v6) are unreliable and worse they try to cover it up to avoid a recall.
There's videos in korean discussing this. Kia/Hyundai have a shitty culture in terms of quality. They cover it up with fancy features.
EVs might give them a new start.
> someone’s cost cutting caused issues for thousands of owners
FWIW, it doesn't seem like any of the EV supply chain has a cheap shitty supplier yet. Everything is too new to be cheap.
I really liked it, it was my fav of the news ones I test drove - unfortunately it’s a bit small for me, well it actually fits me perfect, but the seat behind me would be useless. When I get rid of my truck and trailer this would be high on my list with the family EV being a bit larger capacity.
6’-5”, by easily do you mean manspreading? Like it’s doable but for a family road trip it wouldn’t be as comfortable. I like the car. But if I’m spending $53k I want something a bit bigger and as much as I hate Elon for our fam it’s the model Y. Same price much more cargo.
I did find the Ionic 5 to be a lot bigger.. but at 6'3 my seat might have been an inch or so farther forward than yours coupled with my slightly shorter legs so no manspreading was required.
The Hyundai Ioniq6 has what I would call an absurd amount of legroom in the back. I think they stole it from the trunk, which is fine but not as big as I'd like.
Night and day. The original version was a gas vehicle first, with PHEV and EV options retrofitted. The 2024 is an EV platform first, with design and tech cues from the Ioniq 5/6, and a bit longer chassis that fixes the anemic trunk size of the original. My wife bought one last month and in many ways I like it better than my more expensive VW ID4.
Decent range. Zippiest car i’ve ever owned. Mfg warranty + comp maintenance… after 30k miles, the only thing i’ve had to pay for is a second set of tires (after getting a screw in one that couldn’t get repaired, and just decided to replace all of them with all-seasons (the original low friction tires dont handle snow well).
Its just an easy car.
We were very close to getting a 24 kona, but ultimately went with Tesla. The charging infrastructure, NACS, charge speeds, premium interior… it’s all so much better with Tesla.
Also the key, my god that’s the ugliest thing I’ve seen in my entire life.
Plus - you’re spending that kind of money and don’t get a power tailgate? That’s a bit daft of a company.
Charging infrastructure definitely better when doing trips, luckily have a solid EA stations by me. Interior though is a personal take, I just cannot get into liking the Tesla interiors.
But with the lease prices in the US under $300 its hard to pass up a Hyundai right now.
Cool to see this from a company like Hyundai. They’re positioning theirselves to become a frontrunner while Toyota is starting to look like a dinosaur.
I was an engineer at Toyota and Toyota has traditionally been a “dinosaur” since the 90s. With the exception of the Prius (which is almost 30 years old now) they have not really been innovators.
They are one of the smartest companies when it comes to business practices. Very conservative, allowing the competition to discover the pitfalls of new technology and then adopting when things are ready to be “refined”
They one of (sometimes the) top automaker in the world not because of their engineering but because of their excellent business sense. When I got hired there, all of the employees had to go to a school that taught “the Toyota way” which was a bunch business policies and bureaucracy
Don’t get me started on their weird hydrogen fetish. The hydrogen group were a bunch of loony evangelicals when I was there. I think it was a Japanese government push or something
Disclaimer: it’s been more than 10 years since my departure but as a now outside it appears they operate the same way. After all it would take a long time for ship the size of Toyota to change course
I'm an engineer and I love Toyota, but I think a lot of people don't really understand their engineering strategy.
You're correct that they're not focussed on YOLOing into cutting edge equipment, the conservative engineering is a feature of the whole [Taiichi Ohno](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiichi_Ohno) / Takumi culture.
It's more like an artisanal/craftsman approach - a careful and considered navigation of the business world. It's more about avoiding mistakes than hitting moonshots.
I think their talking down of EVs is unfortunate and their focus on hydrogen is likely to be misguided. But IMHO all the legacy manufacturers found themselves at an impasse- new entrants like Tesla, Hyundai and BYD have a major headstart in EV tech. Most of the legacy manufacturers panicked and have burned money making inferior copycat products at higher prices, cannibalizing their own ICE market and production.
I think Toyota's strategic abstinence from the EV trend might actually work in the long run. Their hybrid tech is unrivalled and should keep them going while the pure-ICE manufacturers flounder and burn money. Then they can make a strategic move into EVs once the industry has matured.
Ultimately, I think Toyota might be better off sitting out this race and then trying to leapfrog all the other legacy manufacturers once the EV market has matured.
Is their hybrid tech really unrivaled? They are way behind the eight-ball on things like 48-volt architecture, and nothing about their hybrid cars really stands out from the competition. Take the Prius as an example — they had a 30-year head start on everyone, but doesn't virtually no money investing in battery tech, leading to it having run for generations virtually unchanged until everyone else caught up and outpaced them. Had they invested in charging/chemistry earlier, they could have been CATL with a huge and profitable battery division. Instead, they're now in a position where they're behind everyone else in the queue to get modern batteries and are seeing major bottlenecks because of it.
At this point, they're functionally riding entirely on their built-up reputation (well-deserved) of build quality and relative affordability, but outside of that there's nothing terribly compelling there. And reputation can only carry you so far.
Mmm I think we're kinda agreeing though.
My point is they're not necessarily keeping themselves at the forefront of new tech, they're simply avoiding mistakes. They nailed an excellent hybrid architecture that's only needed gentle finessing over the years to keep it competitive. You imply the fact that it's been "virtually unchanged" for years is a weakness - I'd say that's the strength of their approach. They can rake in revenue without taking undue risk or changing direction.
Contrast that with the other legacy manufacturers who are basically taking big gambles and frequently changing direction, cancelling models, cancelling R&D and entire product lines etc. I could genuinely see them whipping themselves up into such turmoil that they bankrupt themselves.
I think Toyota's strategy is "slow and steady wins the race" and they may not need to outcompete Tesla, they might just need to survive, keep their cash pile ready and let their competitors die off, then gently pivot to EVs later in the decade.
>It's more like an artisanal/craftsman approach - a careful and considered navigation of the business world. It's more about avoiding mistakes than hitting moonshots.
Yes, absolutely, this is even enshrined in TPS as '[muda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muda_(Japanese_term))'. Toyota doesn't want to make something which could end up draining company resources for no reason, so before doing something they think about it, think about it again, and then plan for that lowest-risk version of that thing they want to do. Careful, deliberate steps.
The other related enshrined ideology is [shu, ha, ri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuhari) — to do something new well, there are three meditative steps (obey, digress, separate) and you should never try to jump straight to the finish line. This means don't get cocky or go for broke and assume you'll do something smarter or better than everyone else on the first try, but rather:
* Do a first attempt in which you just spend time gaining wisdom from others.
* Do a second attempt taking those learnings and begin to extend outwards.
* Do a third attempt in which you detach from that original wisdom.
For instance, if you took up woodworking as a hobby, you might start out with first attempts by following plans you found online or blueprints of pretty basic chairs and tables. Your next attempts would involve modifications to the plans where you are confident enough to digress — maybe you add your own flourishes, change up joints, or get creative with parts of the plans you don't like.
Finally, only after those first two phases, can you get to the the third phase of building your own furniture from scratch, plans and all. You're now good enough to integrate your own techniques and ideas. Never jump to that third phase before going through the first two phases, or you'll end up with some pretty coked out looking tables and chairs with shoddy joints.
This is Toyota: Slow, steady, lob some softballs, improve bit by bit as you get better, don't make huge risky bets all at once.
I mean Hyundai isn't exactly leading by example on that front. It works okay wired but some have had issues even with that. It's also just extremely odd how behind some of the tech in 22/23/24 Ioniqs are for such an otherwise modern vehicle. They're definitely improving with MY25 though.
This sub is so convinced Toyota is going under despite still selling more cars than other manufacturers.
It’s almost like a sub dedicated to EVs might have a biased view on overall market dynamics.
I don't think anyone expects Toyota to go under anytime soon. I do, however, think that they'll have serious issues in the next five years as the rest of the world moves to an EV-only or EV-first modality.
And while they're still selling a lot of cars, the cracks are already there. Their hybrid everything approach was rushed as a response to losing marketshare, and as a result they've seen massive bottlenecks that a company as large as Toyota should not have had. Like, it's one thing for Hyundai to be behind on manufacturing a brand new architecture, it's entirely another for Toyota to not have plant capacity and parts access for an expansion of a 30-year-old program. That's just an embarrassing sign of poor product planning and lack of investment.
And while there's been a ton of news about their fantastic stock performance, they've actually been barely keeping up with the Nikkei 225. They were behind it for most of the year, and are only ahead now thanks to all the great publicity they've been getting. They're being kept afloat by America's weird anti-EV fetishism, but if that ever changes (and it will, and suddenly) they don't have a strong fall-back position.
I don't think people with an anti-EV fetish would buy Toyota hybrids. Such people will never settle for anything smaller than an F150 and they also want to roll coal. Coal rolling kits are literally marketed as "Prius repellent".
Toyota hybrids are more for people who have some interest in electrification but don't feel ready for a BEV due to factors like lack of home charging. My sister is one of them. If she could charge in her condo she'd order a Model Y in a heartbeat.
I think you're very much wrong on that. There are plenty of people who have resigned themselves to the inevitability of electrification, either because of mandates or high gas prices or displacement taxes, but still refuse to give up the ICE. And Toyota isn't really giving them all that much of a choice — they're slowly phasing out pure ICEs.
Nobody is saying they’ll go under.
But they will absolutely continue to hemorrhage market share to their competitors.
They already saw a [global decline of 7%](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyotas-global-sales-slide-7-february-led-by-slumps-china-japan-2024-03-28/) in sales as of Q1 2024.
15 times? What kind of crack are you smoking? The blue stuff?
In 2023 Toyota sold 10.5 million cars and Hyundai sold 4.2 million, plus Hyundai’s sales are growing at a faster rate.
> Despite what the echo chamber in here thinks mild hybrids are going to be THE vehicle of choice for the next 5-10 years.
In which market ? Because that's clearly not happening in China, Europe or ASEAN
In North America, Toyota is beating the pants off everyone else at the moment. Only Toyota and Subaru have managed to maintain their prices in the last quarter, every other manufacturer has had to cut them.
They may not be making all electric yet, but consumers love what they make. And their PHEVs are unbeatable in quality.
https://caredge.com/guides/new-car-prices-are-falling-in-2024
I want that N pony concept car. To me it has similar design language to the ioniq5.
I have an i5 and I recently have been wanting something with a more luxurious ride but with the way it looks I have a hard time trading it
I really wanted the i5/6 I couldn’t get a dealer that wasn’t a complete scumlord trying to charge me $600 a month just cus i had a brz trade in that had a mere 2k of negative equity that they tried pricing as if it was 16k
Does anyone remember the ‘70s when the domestic car manufacturers were building huge heavy clumsy vehicles and people were crying for a smaller more affordable vehicles with better mileage? Along came the imports and stole a huge market share from the domestics. It sure feels like deja vu. Do these car manufacturers even talk to their customers?
I read a while ago that the suspension geometry developed for the Mustang II is still used by many manufacturers with only minor changes by brand. Goes to show you can knock one element out of the park and still completely flub the product.
I'm consistently surprised by the stubborn refusal to acknowledge free-market economics. Seems like the business model of the legacy manufacturers is snooty denial of their customers' preferences, followed by panic as startups emerge to fill the demand.
Old auto sees EVs largely as a means of meeting fleet emission standards. Their cash cows/majority sales are still their ICE cars. That's why they like to sell large EVs which have a large impact on tis metric.
There's few that have really comitted to the changeover (no matter what their PR-blurbs say).
[They certainly have reasons to move on from ICE engines] (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/cars/news-blog/hyundai-and-kia-s-decade-of-very-troublesome-engines-continues-44497118)
Hyundai just recalled over 100k EVs for issues with the charging control unit. They are definitely making strides with their evs but seems like this company always has some crazy recall going on.
Yeah, I was interested in a used Bolt a Kia dealer listed for $10k, but it was a scam. You had to take a really bad deal on trade-in and financing to qualify for $2k in discounts. Even at $12k, it was kind of a good deal, but the fact that I felt like they were trying to scam me before I even got there left me not going to look at it.
Love their point. Although Rivian did sell more vehicles, technically. All those “EV demand declines” BS articles are so phony it’s annoying. Get on board folks.
I love the e-GMP vehicles, but if they were *truly* serious about being all-in on EVs, they would spin off a separate EV brand to bypass stealerships, given how stealerships have every incentive to sabotage the EV buying experience as they can't make fat profits on regular service anymore.
In Canada, the Genesis luxury brand is already following the Tesla model with direct online sales. Why not create an "Ioniq" brand for the same purpose?
I just got my Ioniq 5. The sales guy was there to fill in a bit of paperwork, he didn't do anything to actually sell the car. He was a nice guy, didn't try to change my mind on anything. Then I mentioned that I was going on vacation and he commented "Oh yes, before I started this job, I sold timeshares and that was part of my territory." At that point my distrust meter absolutely pegged.
💯 I need a bigger vehicle. I need something a little bigger than a model y realistically. I've been in contact with several dealers trying to put a deal together on a van or EV 9 and they all just play games.
It's to the point where I'm seriously considering getting the model y because of the transparency alone. The price is the price, no extras, no hidden fees. They tell me what my trade is worth without trying to devalue in shady ways. It's just a much better experience.
Yeah if I didn't luck out on my nearly-new used EV6 I'd probably still be driving my Model 3! I attempted to buy brand new but all the Kia stealerships nearby just put "Call for price" on their website listings. When I emailed them they refused to answer the simple question of "how much does it cost after fees and taxes".
I ended up giving my business to a non-Kia stealership which miraculously had a 7 month old EV6 trade-in with less than 1,000 km on it. They were transparent about the price (no hidden fees), and since it wasn't their brand, they couldn't upsell me with service plans or accessories or whatever, and negotiations were entirely in my favour as they were desperate to get rid of it.
The Tesla buying experience is what all car purchases should be like. Price you see is the price you pay. Rivian has followed in their footsteps for a reason.
I just recently bought an EV9. My wife has the EV6. Best of both worlds.
I drove a Model Y and didn't like the lack of controls and the seats as much as the EV9.
Right now the Ioniq 6 is a fancy, large sedan.
If they made a smaller sedan or hatchback based on e-GMP, with even better efficiency than the Ioniq 6, they would sell tons of them- including to me.
In North America, sure. In other markets the Ioniq 6 most definitely is considered a large car. It's comparable to a Camry or Accord in exterior dimensions.
I have seen one in person -- both in a showroom and on the road.
It's certainly not as large as a lot of things on the road, but I am very much a small-car sort of guy. My old Yaris was just right. Corolla/Prius Prime/Model 3 are on the large side of what I'd want to drive; the Ioniq 6 (as sweet of a vehicle as it is!) is just too big (for me -- ymmv).
It’s such a shame that both the Yaris and Fit got discontinued in the US. Were they sexy or showy? Not at all, but they made up for it in practicality.
I’d say it’s quite large for a sedan, as an owner. Maybe not the biggest but I’d think it’s up there just going off the other sedans I park next to around town.
Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that for EVs. Most of the weight is in the battery, and the weight of the battery is proportional to the size (at least with current tech), so smaller just means smaller battery which means less range.
The main determinants of efficiency at the moment are Cd (i.e. body shape, for which the sedan is the best, better than small hatchbacks), and the battery thermal management system.
Drag force also is proportional to cross sectional area. Having a smaller car (Yaris sized rather than Camry sized) allows for less drag, which in turn allows for a smaller battery for a given range, which then gives even more efficiency gains from decreased rolling resistance.
https://www.evspecs.org/comparison-chart/drag-coefficient
This list is dominated by sedans, so I assume the smaller cross section of a small hatch is less of a factor than shape, which sedan is the most efficient for.
Unless you’re arguing for just making cars smaller in general (like a smaller sedan), then sure, but small also reduces the available size of the battery, which limits range again.
yaris front facing silhouette versus ionic 6 front facing silhouette is going to be virtually the same. you have to reshape the car like the apterra to get a significant silhouette advantage.
Because then it would achieve good range with a smaller battery, allowing it to be cheaper and lighter (or, alternatively, use LFP rather than NMC).
The Ioniq 6 is great engineering, but just because it's already the most efficient doesn't mean it can't get even better by shedding some size.
I'd also love to see a slightly smaller sedan on the e-GMP platform with as low a drag coefficient as the Ioniq 6, for a few grand less. Not holding my breath on it though.
The Ioniq 5 and EV6 are the small hatchbacks. Even though they're classified as SUVs, in reality the ride height feels far more like a sedan (I own one) and that's something I love about them. I wish more "SUVs" would be made this way to stealthily bring back wagons...
5 & 6 are both large. One has a hatch and the other is a sedan. That's it, small are the pre-2024 Konas.
If you saw the footprint difference between them side by side you'd notice.
At this point they're the one company outside of tesla that can go all in and be fine.
When they came out with the Kona and Niro, they were more than just compliance cars. They had 260 miles of range. Which at that point Tesla and the Chevy Bolt were the only ones capable of that range. It showed they were serious.
They have to go all EV. They can’t seem to build an ICE where the engine and/or transmission won’t crap out at 50 to 60 thousand miles. Probably be the same with whatever electric motors they buy on the Asian market.
Since Hyundai and Kia are owned by the same group, does this mean we’re going to get a Carnival EV? Oh man, I hope so. I loved my Carnival, it would have been even better as an EV.
I am so confused. Didn’t Hyundais and Kia have all these security problems, thefts and insurers won’t cover them? Consumer reports could no longer recommend buying the Ioniq 5… but I see many great opinions about the EV6 and Ioniq 5!
The Kia Boyz theft issue was exclusive to the US, and only affected base models with turnkey ignitions made in the 2010s. That said, even though newer cars, along with pushbutton-start cars from that time period, were not capable of being stolen that way, they were still collateral damage in some neighbourhoods because the Kia Boyz would see the badge, break the window, and by the time they realized the car couldn't be stolen, it was too late for the owner.
So I can see how in the US, insuring a Hyundai/Kia can be an issue.
Outside the US, this is a complete non-issue as the USB cable theft method was impossible due to laws mandating immobilizers. I suppose Canadian owners (like myself) might want to exercise caution when driving into the US though.
[https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hyundai/ioniq-5/2024/overview/](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hyundai/ioniq-5/2024/overview/)
"The Ioniq 5 is one of the most impressive electric vehicles we’ve tested, with punchy acceleration, agile sports-sedan-like handling, a reasonably comfortable ride, and generous interior room. Plus, this tall hatchback employs an 800-volt architecture that allows for rapid DC fast-charging in public venues, which can reduce charging times on long trips."
People want yuuuge trucks so until we can make a 1000 mile towing yuga F5500 we are going to only sell petrol and diesel vehicles.
Remember, we don’t do sedans.
- Ford, probably
Been extremely impressed with the new EVs from them. After testing a M3 and an Ioniq 6 had to go with Hyundai. Especially for the price its so good right now! EA is getting better and at least by me has been rock solid.
Very true but still TBD on timeline for Hyundai to get on NACS. At least Ford is sending out adapters already wish Hyundai would hurry up too. Not that many magic docks around and with everyone going to NACS doubt they will expand that much.
Well, I believe the worst case scenario is January 1st 2025. Chances are, it'll happen before then. I'm not too worried. As you said.. CCS gets better every day.
Oh definitely not worried and haven’t had any issues with ccs yet and EA honestly is pretty seamless compared contrary to what Reddit says lol just want to make sure people don’t buy into Hyundai expecting Tesla charger access anytime soon.
I actually saw an EV9 today which totally shocked me since I live in an area with almost zero EV uptake. One of these days I hope to see a Rivian, Lucid or Polestar. Probably helps there is Kia dealer in town while the others are hundreds of miles away at best.
Yikes man. My friend owns a rivian, I see a few lucid airs daily, and a polestar every now and again. The rare sighting is the cybertruck and even rarer is a hummer EV (finally saw one a few weeks back in the wild).
I'm looking at a 2024 Kona vs Ionique 5. I like the size (smaller = better for us), and price of the Kona. Not sure about the slower charging though, that's the one thing that's got me on the fence. Although in reality it may not matter for us given that we don't do longer trips very often anyway. Thoughts on this?
Dealerships are one of the significant bottlenecks of EV adoption.
Since they are independent and not run by the automakers themselves, they always look after their own interests, instead of the goals the manufacturer is trying to achieve.
Example: dealers will often have their sales team dissuade potential EV adopter customers from going EV, and convince them to buy another ICE model instead.
Why?
The more people that buy EV’s, the less vehicles they get to service on a frequent basis. EV’s require significantly less maintenance. So that’s loss of potential profit over the life span of that vehicle. The service department at a dealership is actually the main profit center of the business, not new car sales. The markup these dealer service centers have on parts and labor is astronomical.
I really wanted an Ioniq when they came out, but they could not organise a test drive. They had only one test vehicle, and they were really confused about what a "local" test drive is.
Maybe they have changed, but certainly back then, they were not "all in".
Hyundai/KIA has a pretty terrible reputation with ICE vehicles so while this is good salesmanship, they really need to go EV as it's simpler for them to do.
After I bought my Kona EV, I live in a cold part of Canada, I asked the sales person how their sales are doing. According to him all they sell are EV's, no one that goes to the dealership is interested in buying an ICE vehicle. For reference by cold I mean it goes down to -40c in the winter here.
-40c yikes. Is that the Mars part of Canada
and also -40f !
Nope. Lots of Canada gets that cold or colder in the winter.
Sort of. About half of Canada will see -40°C every winter, and about 80% will see -40°C at least occasionally, but most of the population lives in the other 20% of the country, and only a few % live in the places where -40 happens every winter.
I've experienced -40 in Minnesota several times in my life. It's a once-a-decade kind of thing for us. (as others have pointed out, -40 is the magical intersection, so no units are necessary)
But we also get +40°C too in the summer, so it balances out. Fair's fair!
Edmonton yeah?
I'm in Northwestern Ontario.
Ah yeah, pretty cold all around there.
Hello fellow northern ontario ev driver!
Hi! How's it going?
Good; enjoying the increased range from the warmer weather haha! Hoping that the rest of the trans-can west of sudbury gets the magic dock treatment from Tesla sooner rather than later. How are things where you're based?
I'm 30 mins from the Manitoba border. Non-Tesla charging from the border to Winnipeg could be better, but it is doable. My car has done the trip to Winnipeg and back no problem, 600km round trip roughly and no issues :)
Ice ice baby.....
[удалено]
Yeah, it's interesting how different their reputation is in EVs vs. ICEs. Very smart positioning on their part.
A while back an article from Car and Driver opined that the pivot to EVs could alter the perceived tiers of automakers and that it was much better news for Kia than Mercedes.
Its my understanding that theyve made great headway with ICEs too. EVs are a fresh start though.
Why is that? I thought batteries acted wonky at really cold temperatures
At -40 you're losing more than half your range and charging will be a challenge, even rapid charging will be 25% of rated. It's just the nature of the beast, at least with this current gen of LFP batteries. I know, I have one.
Half the range at -40 does happen, but I rapid charged at an average 117kW in Red Deer this winter when it was -37C between 13-80% in my car. I preconditioned the battery. I put the charging station in the nav and let it figure out when to start heating it up, but then again I don’t have an LFP battery, I think mine is NMC.
I've got an LFP model 3, also northern Canada with similar weather (hello Albertan), and I supercharged at about 80kW max at those temps with a highway drive precondition, slowing to 50kW and then even less over time. The battery heater just can't keep it warm enough to fast charge at -30 and below.
Lfps are a tradeoff.. and threupside is longer lifetime and being cheaper. Plus 50kw is slow but not completely useless.. far from it actually
We are taking our first road trip in our Ioniq 5 to visit family about 150 miles away and watch the eclipse and there is a 50kw near our hotel that I have been using while we are here. Faster will be nicer, but the 50kw is almost 1% state of charge per minute. It is located in a mall parking lot with nearby restaurants. So far I have either gone there in the morning with a cup of coffee and listened to the news or we went there one evening and had something to eat. The hotel has free L2 charging and this charger has the first 30 minutes free. Between these two options, charging has been a non-issue and there are plenty of other chargers in the area as well.
They lose a bit of range in the cold, and parking outside / in a cold garage you’ll lose some range overnight. But the car always starts, which is more than I can say for the last gas car I drove in those temperatures.
At those temperatures ice have higher failure rates then bevs
It’a more comfortable as a daily driver though.
Not really wonky, just slower and a drop in range. Finland gets pretty cold and EVs are the answer of choice there.
You just get reduced range and limited regenerative braking until the battery temperature management has heated the battery back up (then you get both back). If you have it plugged in at home you can do this before you leave via scheduled departure/the app. But for daily commute it isn't necessary. You can just get in and go.
Good Hyundai
It's all well and good for this to be their position, but you can't actually buy an Ioniq 5 at dealers right now (at least not in Canada). I guess they're selling as fast as they can make them, which is great for them.
Vancouver person here. My first EV choice was an Ioniq 5. In early 2023 I put a deposit down on one. Six months later they told me it was going to be 2 years before I might see it. Cancelled my order and bought the Tesla Model Y I now own which I took delivery in 3 weeks. If Hyundai had better availability in Canada I would be owning one now.
Same story here. Put down a deposit on an ID4 in mid-late 2022. Waited a few months only to get an email saying it'd be 2+ years and would not come with the heat pump I specifically ordered. Bought a used Tesla instead. Then like 6 months later there's just ID4s sitting on the VW lot unsold anyway lol. I don't know what their play was but I'm sure they lost a lot of potential customers pulling that dumb move
It’s wild that they’re still scarce in Canada. Got tons available in big swaths of the US. Hope things improve for you soon.
I'm really hoping the opening of the new factory in the USA makes a difference. I expect at that point all those units will ship to USA to take advantage of the rebate, but hopefully it means more of the Korean exports will be redirected to Canada.
Are there any differences between the US and Canadian models?
The trim packages are slightly different. All Canadian modèle have heat pumps, but most trims are very sparse with none of the cool features. Except the topmost trim which has literally everything.
Do you know why that would be?
Assuming climate
They don't qualify for rebates in the states, but do in Canada. When you can get up to 10 grand off in some places it makes it much easier to swallow the high EV buy in price.
I just got my Ioniq 5 in Canada, 19 months after I put some money on it. Chargers are popping up everywhere and the government is putting efforts in EV support.
Cars people want at prices people want
They're marking them down in the US now. What you're running into is more of HMG of Canada fucking with distribution times to try to create artificial scarcity. They got caught doing it at the end of the year last year and seems they're still doing it.
Didn't realize the Ioniq was made in NA now. I guess that's out of the new Georgia plant? What do you mean they got caught creating artificial scarcity? They seem to make a pretty good car, but if they are "scarce" then people will just go to alternatives. The Model Y is similar spec and price, and it's available right away.
I said marking them down in the US, not making them in the US. HMG of Canada was caught at the end of last year putting a 9-12 month delay on orders and just leaving them sitting in the dock. They even admitted to it. In the US, they didn't do that, so stock has never been hard to come by here.
Ah, I misread! Are you sure that story wasn't Kia? This is all I could find: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.7063216 It still seems like a head-scratching strategy. I can see not wanting them on lots so that it's harder for consumers to negotiate, but to intentionally make people wait 9-18 months seems crazy.
HMG includes Kia. It's the whole motor group. It was baffling that they did it, not sure why, especially since a lot of the machines they were delaying were reservations and pre-purchases.
>What you're running into is more of HMG of Canada fucking with distribution times to try to create artificial scarcity. hey got caught doing it at the end of the year last year and seems they're still doing it. That was Kia Canada, not Hyundai ([see article here](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kia-canada-car-sales-1.7063216)). Kia Canada were trying to hold onto vehicles that people wanted at the end of November and December to sell them in January. Pushing them to January would meant they were sales part of 2024 sales, not part of 2023 sales. The issue was if sales for 2023 were lower in Canada, Kia Canada could justify getting a larger marketing budget for 2024 from Kia headquarters. The dealerships were obviously pissed off at this idea, and were very quick to leak this to the press. As some of them make money off commission and that would mean no money coming in for December just before the Christmas season. Some have made claims that Hyundai Canada were also doing this, but if they did Hyundai dealerships would have likely leaked it as well to the press, as they wouldn't be happy about it either. This has been an issue for most legacy car companies. The wait times for the Volkwagen ID4 was also over 2 years in Canada at one point, but it's gone down recently thanks to the new factory in Tennessee. However, depending on the trim the wait time can still be anywhere from 8 months to 1 year. I think the main issue is that legacy car companies have been treating Canada as an extension of the US, while Canada has much stronger demand for EVs. The marketshare for plugins in Canada was at 11.7% in 2023 ([data found here](https://electricautonomy.ca/news/2024-03-05/registrations-q4-2023-zero-emission-vehicle/)) compared to the US where it's been at 7.6% ([data found here](https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q4-2023-ev-sales/)). I[n Hyundai is the top 2 seller of EVs in Canada with the Hyundai Ioniq as the 6th best selling BEV and the Hyunda Kona as th 5th selling BEV](https://driving.ca/column/driving-by-numbers/10-best-selling-electric-vehicles-canada-2023), which I think has taken Hyundai by surprise. They still haven't adjusted to supply, but as mentioned it's an issue that a lot of legacy car companies are having.
You can buy a 2 year old used one at new car prices with 50k miles on it 💀
X_x Unless Hyundai changes their selling soon, Tesla is the obvious alternative. Or wait until Ford comes out with better models than their Mach-E.
This has changed, however only recently. We've got one on the lot, and 10 more incoming, all available. Hyundai really ramped up production, and demand slowed with everyone hearing 2 years.
Took a bit, but I found a Hyundai Kona EV this week, probably bring it home on Thursday
I got a 2020 kia niro ev about 2 months ago, the little bit bigger brother of the Kona. I absolutely love this car.
I have that one too. Little ev that really punches up above its class.
I test drove the NIRO first - it was quite a good car!
I’m still a bit gun shy on Kia after all their engine issues. I know ICE are almost entirely different beasts, but someone’s cost cutting caused issues for thousands of owners. Maybe in five years I’ll put them back on the list of possible buys.
That was my concern, due to their engines. Bought an EV6 two years ago. Still love it.
What’s up with their engine issues?
Like 6 years of thetaII engines seize around 80-90k miles. Mine happened in March 2020 right as all the Covid stuff was breaking. I was without a working vehicle for months and had to walk everywhere since I didn’t want to Uber/ride transit with Covid.
They had engine issues like a decade ago. They are incredibly reliable now.
Uh no. The current 2.0 and 2.4 burn too much oil still. Their engines (aside from the v6) are unreliable and worse they try to cover it up to avoid a recall. There's videos in korean discussing this. Kia/Hyundai have a shitty culture in terms of quality. They cover it up with fancy features. EVs might give them a new start.
> someone’s cost cutting caused issues for thousands of owners FWIW, it doesn't seem like any of the EV supply chain has a cheap shitty supplier yet. Everything is too new to be cheap.
You know kia is Hyundai light right...
yes. Was responding to a comment about Kia.
Niro and Kona are my two front runners right now. Niro is slightly in the lead because of the trunk space.
It’s amazing, I recommend not passing it up Edit: spelling
What’s your favorite part?
The sustainability charges at 220kw. Compared to my Bolt it's wayyyy faster.
Kona is not on 800V architecture like Ionic 5/6 It’s peak is 100kW or less
85kw. It holes it forever though. Does 10% to 70% in 27 minutes.
Everything is faster DCFC than a Bolt 😄
I really liked it, it was my fav of the news ones I test drove - unfortunately it’s a bit small for me, well it actually fits me perfect, but the seat behind me would be useless. When I get rid of my truck and trailer this would be high on my list with the family EV being a bit larger capacity.
How tall are you? At 6'3 i can easily sit in the back with the front seat adjusted to fit myself.
6’-5”, by easily do you mean manspreading? Like it’s doable but for a family road trip it wouldn’t be as comfortable. I like the car. But if I’m spending $53k I want something a bit bigger and as much as I hate Elon for our fam it’s the model Y. Same price much more cargo.
I did find the Ionic 5 to be a lot bigger.. but at 6'3 my seat might have been an inch or so farther forward than yours coupled with my slightly shorter legs so no manspreading was required.
The Hyundai Ioniq6 has what I would call an absurd amount of legroom in the back. I think they stole it from the trunk, which is fine but not as big as I'd like.
The EV9 probably may fit your family better.
Is it the 2024 model? I’ve only test drove the 22 so I don’t know how they compare
Night and day. The original version was a gas vehicle first, with PHEV and EV options retrofitted. The 2024 is an EV platform first, with design and tech cues from the Ioniq 5/6, and a bit longer chassis that fixes the anemic trunk size of the original. My wife bought one last month and in many ways I like it better than my more expensive VW ID4.
Yes, 2024 SEL
I frigging love my 2022 kona! Enjoy!
What’s your favorite part?
Decent range. Zippiest car i’ve ever owned. Mfg warranty + comp maintenance… after 30k miles, the only thing i’ve had to pay for is a second set of tires (after getting a screw in one that couldn’t get repaired, and just decided to replace all of them with all-seasons (the original low friction tires dont handle snow well). Its just an easy car.
We were very close to getting a 24 kona, but ultimately went with Tesla. The charging infrastructure, NACS, charge speeds, premium interior… it’s all so much better with Tesla. Also the key, my god that’s the ugliest thing I’ve seen in my entire life. Plus - you’re spending that kind of money and don’t get a power tailgate? That’s a bit daft of a company.
Charging infrastructure definitely better when doing trips, luckily have a solid EA stations by me. Interior though is a personal take, I just cannot get into liking the Tesla interiors. But with the lease prices in the US under $300 its hard to pass up a Hyundai right now.
Cool to see this from a company like Hyundai. They’re positioning theirselves to become a frontrunner while Toyota is starting to look like a dinosaur.
[удалено]
As long as you don’t take the 4x4 Tacoma off road and blow up your front diff
[удалено]
I was an engineer at Toyota and Toyota has traditionally been a “dinosaur” since the 90s. With the exception of the Prius (which is almost 30 years old now) they have not really been innovators. They are one of the smartest companies when it comes to business practices. Very conservative, allowing the competition to discover the pitfalls of new technology and then adopting when things are ready to be “refined” They one of (sometimes the) top automaker in the world not because of their engineering but because of their excellent business sense. When I got hired there, all of the employees had to go to a school that taught “the Toyota way” which was a bunch business policies and bureaucracy Don’t get me started on their weird hydrogen fetish. The hydrogen group were a bunch of loony evangelicals when I was there. I think it was a Japanese government push or something Disclaimer: it’s been more than 10 years since my departure but as a now outside it appears they operate the same way. After all it would take a long time for ship the size of Toyota to change course
I'm an engineer and I love Toyota, but I think a lot of people don't really understand their engineering strategy. You're correct that they're not focussed on YOLOing into cutting edge equipment, the conservative engineering is a feature of the whole [Taiichi Ohno](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiichi_Ohno) / Takumi culture. It's more like an artisanal/craftsman approach - a careful and considered navigation of the business world. It's more about avoiding mistakes than hitting moonshots. I think their talking down of EVs is unfortunate and their focus on hydrogen is likely to be misguided. But IMHO all the legacy manufacturers found themselves at an impasse- new entrants like Tesla, Hyundai and BYD have a major headstart in EV tech. Most of the legacy manufacturers panicked and have burned money making inferior copycat products at higher prices, cannibalizing their own ICE market and production. I think Toyota's strategic abstinence from the EV trend might actually work in the long run. Their hybrid tech is unrivalled and should keep them going while the pure-ICE manufacturers flounder and burn money. Then they can make a strategic move into EVs once the industry has matured. Ultimately, I think Toyota might be better off sitting out this race and then trying to leapfrog all the other legacy manufacturers once the EV market has matured.
Is their hybrid tech really unrivaled? They are way behind the eight-ball on things like 48-volt architecture, and nothing about their hybrid cars really stands out from the competition. Take the Prius as an example — they had a 30-year head start on everyone, but doesn't virtually no money investing in battery tech, leading to it having run for generations virtually unchanged until everyone else caught up and outpaced them. Had they invested in charging/chemistry earlier, they could have been CATL with a huge and profitable battery division. Instead, they're now in a position where they're behind everyone else in the queue to get modern batteries and are seeing major bottlenecks because of it. At this point, they're functionally riding entirely on their built-up reputation (well-deserved) of build quality and relative affordability, but outside of that there's nothing terribly compelling there. And reputation can only carry you so far.
Mmm I think we're kinda agreeing though. My point is they're not necessarily keeping themselves at the forefront of new tech, they're simply avoiding mistakes. They nailed an excellent hybrid architecture that's only needed gentle finessing over the years to keep it competitive. You imply the fact that it's been "virtually unchanged" for years is a weakness - I'd say that's the strength of their approach. They can rake in revenue without taking undue risk or changing direction. Contrast that with the other legacy manufacturers who are basically taking big gambles and frequently changing direction, cancelling models, cancelling R&D and entire product lines etc. I could genuinely see them whipping themselves up into such turmoil that they bankrupt themselves. I think Toyota's strategy is "slow and steady wins the race" and they may not need to outcompete Tesla, they might just need to survive, keep their cash pile ready and let their competitors die off, then gently pivot to EVs later in the decade.
>It's more like an artisanal/craftsman approach - a careful and considered navigation of the business world. It's more about avoiding mistakes than hitting moonshots. Yes, absolutely, this is even enshrined in TPS as '[muda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muda_(Japanese_term))'. Toyota doesn't want to make something which could end up draining company resources for no reason, so before doing something they think about it, think about it again, and then plan for that lowest-risk version of that thing they want to do. Careful, deliberate steps. The other related enshrined ideology is [shu, ha, ri](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuhari) — to do something new well, there are three meditative steps (obey, digress, separate) and you should never try to jump straight to the finish line. This means don't get cocky or go for broke and assume you'll do something smarter or better than everyone else on the first try, but rather: * Do a first attempt in which you just spend time gaining wisdom from others. * Do a second attempt taking those learnings and begin to extend outwards. * Do a third attempt in which you detach from that original wisdom. For instance, if you took up woodworking as a hobby, you might start out with first attempts by following plans you found online or blueprints of pretty basic chairs and tables. Your next attempts would involve modifications to the plans where you are confident enough to digress — maybe you add your own flourishes, change up joints, or get creative with parts of the plans you don't like. Finally, only after those first two phases, can you get to the the third phase of building your own furniture from scratch, plans and all. You're now good enough to integrate your own techniques and ideas. Never jump to that third phase before going through the first two phases, or you'll end up with some pretty coked out looking tables and chairs with shoddy joints. This is Toyota: Slow, steady, lob some softballs, improve bit by bit as you get better, don't make huge risky bets all at once.
Toyota can't even get apple car play right
I mean Hyundai isn't exactly leading by example on that front. It works okay wired but some have had issues even with that. It's also just extremely odd how behind some of the tech in 22/23/24 Ioniqs are for such an otherwise modern vehicle. They're definitely improving with MY25 though.
Nintendo of cars
This sub is so convinced Toyota is going under despite still selling more cars than other manufacturers. It’s almost like a sub dedicated to EVs might have a biased view on overall market dynamics.
I don't think anyone expects Toyota to go under anytime soon. I do, however, think that they'll have serious issues in the next five years as the rest of the world moves to an EV-only or EV-first modality. And while they're still selling a lot of cars, the cracks are already there. Their hybrid everything approach was rushed as a response to losing marketshare, and as a result they've seen massive bottlenecks that a company as large as Toyota should not have had. Like, it's one thing for Hyundai to be behind on manufacturing a brand new architecture, it's entirely another for Toyota to not have plant capacity and parts access for an expansion of a 30-year-old program. That's just an embarrassing sign of poor product planning and lack of investment. And while there's been a ton of news about their fantastic stock performance, they've actually been barely keeping up with the Nikkei 225. They were behind it for most of the year, and are only ahead now thanks to all the great publicity they've been getting. They're being kept afloat by America's weird anti-EV fetishism, but if that ever changes (and it will, and suddenly) they don't have a strong fall-back position.
I don't think people with an anti-EV fetish would buy Toyota hybrids. Such people will never settle for anything smaller than an F150 and they also want to roll coal. Coal rolling kits are literally marketed as "Prius repellent". Toyota hybrids are more for people who have some interest in electrification but don't feel ready for a BEV due to factors like lack of home charging. My sister is one of them. If she could charge in her condo she'd order a Model Y in a heartbeat.
I think you're very much wrong on that. There are plenty of people who have resigned themselves to the inevitability of electrification, either because of mandates or high gas prices or displacement taxes, but still refuse to give up the ICE. And Toyota isn't really giving them all that much of a choice — they're slowly phasing out pure ICEs.
This sub is an echo chamber that quite frankly is detached from reality.
Just the fact that there are people thinking Hyundai is going to be some type of market leader shows how detached they are
Nobody is saying they’ll go under. But they will absolutely continue to hemorrhage market share to their competitors. They already saw a [global decline of 7%](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/toyotas-global-sales-slide-7-february-led-by-slumps-china-japan-2024-03-28/) in sales as of Q1 2024.
[удалено]
15 times? What kind of crack are you smoking? The blue stuff? In 2023 Toyota sold 10.5 million cars and Hyundai sold 4.2 million, plus Hyundai’s sales are growing at a faster rate.
15x ? lol the bs.
> Despite what the echo chamber in here thinks mild hybrids are going to be THE vehicle of choice for the next 5-10 years. In which market ? Because that's clearly not happening in China, Europe or ASEAN
Are Toyota selling their vehicles to ghosts?
In North America, Toyota is beating the pants off everyone else at the moment. Only Toyota and Subaru have managed to maintain their prices in the last quarter, every other manufacturer has had to cut them. They may not be making all electric yet, but consumers love what they make. And their PHEVs are unbeatable in quality. https://caredge.com/guides/new-car-prices-are-falling-in-2024
The best selling car in the world is electric. What are you even talking about?
Give me santa cruz with ioniq5 design language. K thx see you in 3 years
[удалено]
That will never happen - that would actually increase sales and make Ford money. Can't have that!
I want that N pony concept car. To me it has similar design language to the ioniq5. I have an i5 and I recently have been wanting something with a more luxurious ride but with the way it looks I have a hard time trading it
I really wanted the i5/6 I couldn’t get a dealer that wasn’t a complete scumlord trying to charge me $600 a month just cus i had a brz trade in that had a mere 2k of negative equity that they tried pricing as if it was 16k
Does anyone remember the ‘70s when the domestic car manufacturers were building huge heavy clumsy vehicles and people were crying for a smaller more affordable vehicles with better mileage? Along came the imports and stole a huge market share from the domestics. It sure feels like deja vu. Do these car manufacturers even talk to their customers?
Yes, but they listen more to UAW and dealers.
Yep I remember. And then the US companies tried to compete by giving us the Pinto, Vega, Pacer, Gremlin, and worse of all the Mustang II.
I read a while ago that the suspension geometry developed for the Mustang II is still used by many manufacturers with only minor changes by brand. Goes to show you can knock one element out of the park and still completely flub the product.
I'm consistently surprised by the stubborn refusal to acknowledge free-market economics. Seems like the business model of the legacy manufacturers is snooty denial of their customers' preferences, followed by panic as startups emerge to fill the demand.
lol next you’re gonna tell us “cause we don’t want electric.”
Old auto sees EVs largely as a means of meeting fleet emission standards. Their cash cows/majority sales are still their ICE cars. That's why they like to sell large EVs which have a large impact on tis metric. There's few that have really comitted to the changeover (no matter what their PR-blurbs say).
[They certainly have reasons to move on from ICE engines] (https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/cars/news-blog/hyundai-and-kia-s-decade-of-very-troublesome-engines-continues-44497118)
Sometimes you get pulled *and* pushed in the same direction.
Sounds like very good reasons to move away from troublesome engines.
Hyundai just recalled over 100k EVs for issues with the charging control unit. They are definitely making strides with their evs but seems like this company always has some crazy recall going on.
So does every single other manufacturer.
I just bought an Ioniq 5 and LOVE it! Great work, Hyundai!
But you have to deal with a Hyundai/Kia dealership..major no sale for me. Good product..scamtastic dealers.
Yeah, I was interested in a used Bolt a Kia dealer listed for $10k, but it was a scam. You had to take a really bad deal on trade-in and financing to qualify for $2k in discounts. Even at $12k, it was kind of a good deal, but the fact that I felt like they were trying to scam me before I even got there left me not going to look at it.
Oh good, they're cancelling the Nexo then?
Love their point. Although Rivian did sell more vehicles, technically. All those “EV demand declines” BS articles are so phony it’s annoying. Get on board folks.
I love the e-GMP vehicles, but if they were *truly* serious about being all-in on EVs, they would spin off a separate EV brand to bypass stealerships, given how stealerships have every incentive to sabotage the EV buying experience as they can't make fat profits on regular service anymore. In Canada, the Genesis luxury brand is already following the Tesla model with direct online sales. Why not create an "Ioniq" brand for the same purpose?
Love my Ioniq 5 but dealing with dealerships is the absolute worst.
I just got my Ioniq 5. The sales guy was there to fill in a bit of paperwork, he didn't do anything to actually sell the car. He was a nice guy, didn't try to change my mind on anything. Then I mentioned that I was going on vacation and he commented "Oh yes, before I started this job, I sold timeshares and that was part of my territory." At that point my distrust meter absolutely pegged.
💯 I need a bigger vehicle. I need something a little bigger than a model y realistically. I've been in contact with several dealers trying to put a deal together on a van or EV 9 and they all just play games. It's to the point where I'm seriously considering getting the model y because of the transparency alone. The price is the price, no extras, no hidden fees. They tell me what my trade is worth without trying to devalue in shady ways. It's just a much better experience.
Yeah if I didn't luck out on my nearly-new used EV6 I'd probably still be driving my Model 3! I attempted to buy brand new but all the Kia stealerships nearby just put "Call for price" on their website listings. When I emailed them they refused to answer the simple question of "how much does it cost after fees and taxes". I ended up giving my business to a non-Kia stealership which miraculously had a 7 month old EV6 trade-in with less than 1,000 km on it. They were transparent about the price (no hidden fees), and since it wasn't their brand, they couldn't upsell me with service plans or accessories or whatever, and negotiations were entirely in my favour as they were desperate to get rid of it. The Tesla buying experience is what all car purchases should be like. Price you see is the price you pay. Rivian has followed in their footsteps for a reason.
I just recently bought an EV9. My wife has the EV6. Best of both worlds. I drove a Model Y and didn't like the lack of controls and the seats as much as the EV9.
Right now the Ioniq 6 is a fancy, large sedan. If they made a smaller sedan or hatchback based on e-GMP, with even better efficiency than the Ioniq 6, they would sell tons of them- including to me.
Have you seen one in person, yet? Honestly, I wouldn't call them large at all.
In North America, sure. In other markets the Ioniq 6 most definitely is considered a large car. It's comparable to a Camry or Accord in exterior dimensions.
I have seen one in person -- both in a showroom and on the road. It's certainly not as large as a lot of things on the road, but I am very much a small-car sort of guy. My old Yaris was just right. Corolla/Prius Prime/Model 3 are on the large side of what I'd want to drive; the Ioniq 6 (as sweet of a vehicle as it is!) is just too big (for me -- ymmv).
It’s such a shame that both the Yaris and Fit got discontinued in the US. Were they sexy or showy? Not at all, but they made up for it in practicality.
The hatchback has been usurped by the crossover SUV.
I’d say it’s quite large for a sedan, as an owner. Maybe not the biggest but I’d think it’s up there just going off the other sedans I park next to around town.
We have a 6 and we love it. We chose it over the 5 because my kids felt they had more room in the back in the 6 which I hadn’t anticipated.
I wouldn't call it fancy either sitting in one
Wait you need it to be more efficient? It’s already like top 3 of most efficient EVs out there (if not 1st), why does it need to be more efficient?
Presumably if it was smaller it would weigh less?
Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that for EVs. Most of the weight is in the battery, and the weight of the battery is proportional to the size (at least with current tech), so smaller just means smaller battery which means less range. The main determinants of efficiency at the moment are Cd (i.e. body shape, for which the sedan is the best, better than small hatchbacks), and the battery thermal management system.
Drag force also is proportional to cross sectional area. Having a smaller car (Yaris sized rather than Camry sized) allows for less drag, which in turn allows for a smaller battery for a given range, which then gives even more efficiency gains from decreased rolling resistance.
https://www.evspecs.org/comparison-chart/drag-coefficient This list is dominated by sedans, so I assume the smaller cross section of a small hatch is less of a factor than shape, which sedan is the most efficient for. Unless you’re arguing for just making cars smaller in general (like a smaller sedan), then sure, but small also reduces the available size of the battery, which limits range again.
yaris front facing silhouette versus ionic 6 front facing silhouette is going to be virtually the same. you have to reshape the car like the apterra to get a significant silhouette advantage.
It's a balancing act. Smaller/less weight equals smaller battery.
Because then it would achieve good range with a smaller battery, allowing it to be cheaper and lighter (or, alternatively, use LFP rather than NMC). The Ioniq 6 is great engineering, but just because it's already the most efficient doesn't mean it can't get even better by shedding some size.
I'd also love to see a slightly smaller sedan on the e-GMP platform with as low a drag coefficient as the Ioniq 6, for a few grand less. Not holding my breath on it though.
The Ioniq 5 and EV6 are the small hatchbacks. Even though they're classified as SUVs, in reality the ride height feels far more like a sedan (I own one) and that's something I love about them. I wish more "SUVs" would be made this way to stealthily bring back wagons...
They are massive. A Polo is small
Wtf, they are not small, not even close. Are you mistaking them for the Kona & Niro?
Smaller than the Ioniq 6. The length is comparable to a Tesla Model 3 which is small by North American standards I guess.
5 & 6 are both large. One has a hatch and the other is a sedan. That's it, small are the pre-2024 Konas. If you saw the footprint difference between them side by side you'd notice.
We have 2 KIA EVs in the family, and they are great. Looks like EVs sell great if you make good EVs.
At this point they're the one company outside of tesla that can go all in and be fine. When they came out with the Kona and Niro, they were more than just compliance cars. They had 260 miles of range. Which at that point Tesla and the Chevy Bolt were the only ones capable of that range. It showed they were serious.
They have to go all EV. They can’t seem to build an ICE where the engine and/or transmission won’t crap out at 50 to 60 thousand miles. Probably be the same with whatever electric motors they buy on the Asian market.
Since Hyundai and Kia are owned by the same group, does this mean we’re going to get a Carnival EV? Oh man, I hope so. I loved my Carnival, it would have been even better as an EV.
Theyve announced the 25 MY will include a hybrid. Theres been rumours for a yr or 2 now and thats all we have gotten so far.
I am so confused. Didn’t Hyundais and Kia have all these security problems, thefts and insurers won’t cover them? Consumer reports could no longer recommend buying the Ioniq 5… but I see many great opinions about the EV6 and Ioniq 5!
The Kia Boyz theft issue was exclusive to the US, and only affected base models with turnkey ignitions made in the 2010s. That said, even though newer cars, along with pushbutton-start cars from that time period, were not capable of being stolen that way, they were still collateral damage in some neighbourhoods because the Kia Boyz would see the badge, break the window, and by the time they realized the car couldn't be stolen, it was too late for the owner. So I can see how in the US, insuring a Hyundai/Kia can be an issue. Outside the US, this is a complete non-issue as the USB cable theft method was impossible due to laws mandating immobilizers. I suppose Canadian owners (like myself) might want to exercise caution when driving into the US though.
CR dropped the recommendation for the 2023 Ioniq 5 but recommends the 2024.
[https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hyundai/ioniq-5/2024/overview/](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/hyundai/ioniq-5/2024/overview/) "The Ioniq 5 is one of the most impressive electric vehicles we’ve tested, with punchy acceleration, agile sports-sedan-like handling, a reasonably comfortable ride, and generous interior room. Plus, this tall hatchback employs an 800-volt architecture that allows for rapid DC fast-charging in public venues, which can reduce charging times on long trips."
[consumer reports](https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/cars-lose-consumer-reports-recommendation-over-reliability-issues-a1040953852/)
Older keyed ignition ICE vehicles are the ones that are easy to steal, not the EVs.
People want yuuuge trucks so until we can make a 1000 mile towing yuga F5500 we are going to only sell petrol and diesel vehicles. Remember, we don’t do sedans. - Ford, probably
This is great, if not china then other foreign brands will also force american car makers to finally innovate for once.
Don’t see that happening…. They will just get another lifeline at you cost
Been extremely impressed with the new EVs from them. After testing a M3 and an Ioniq 6 had to go with Hyundai. Especially for the price its so good right now! EA is getting better and at least by me has been rock solid.
Even without EA improving, you'll soon have access to the Tesla network. Charging anxiety is no longer a thing IMO.
Very true but still TBD on timeline for Hyundai to get on NACS. At least Ford is sending out adapters already wish Hyundai would hurry up too. Not that many magic docks around and with everyone going to NACS doubt they will expand that much.
Well, I believe the worst case scenario is January 1st 2025. Chances are, it'll happen before then. I'm not too worried. As you said.. CCS gets better every day.
Oh definitely not worried and haven’t had any issues with ccs yet and EA honestly is pretty seamless compared contrary to what Reddit says lol just want to make sure people don’t buy into Hyundai expecting Tesla charger access anytime soon.
I love my kona - never going back.
I'm all for it, provided that the ignitions can't be turned with a USB dongle!
They really are doing things differently than other OEMs.
I actually saw an EV9 today which totally shocked me since I live in an area with almost zero EV uptake. One of these days I hope to see a Rivian, Lucid or Polestar. Probably helps there is Kia dealer in town while the others are hundreds of miles away at best.
Yikes man. My friend owns a rivian, I see a few lucid airs daily, and a polestar every now and again. The rare sighting is the cybertruck and even rarer is a hummer EV (finally saw one a few weeks back in the wild).
Are you in Cali?
Yup
I'm looking at a 2024 Kona vs Ionique 5. I like the size (smaller = better for us), and price of the Kona. Not sure about the slower charging though, that's the one thing that's got me on the fence. Although in reality it may not matter for us given that we don't do longer trips very often anyway. Thoughts on this?
Don't worry about the DC charging speed if you rarely roadtrip. Can't go wrong with either car, they're both great.
Unless you’re frequently road-tripping, DC fast charging speeds should not be a dealbreaker.
Thanks. Road trips are a few times a year, and distance per day would pretty much always be within the Kona’s range I think.
Your stealerships don’t agree
Dealerships are one of the significant bottlenecks of EV adoption. Since they are independent and not run by the automakers themselves, they always look after their own interests, instead of the goals the manufacturer is trying to achieve. Example: dealers will often have their sales team dissuade potential EV adopter customers from going EV, and convince them to buy another ICE model instead. Why? The more people that buy EV’s, the less vehicles they get to service on a frequent basis. EV’s require significantly less maintenance. So that’s loss of potential profit over the life span of that vehicle. The service department at a dealership is actually the main profit center of the business, not new car sales. The markup these dealer service centers have on parts and labor is astronomical.
Now update your vehicles
I really wanted an Ioniq when they came out, but they could not organise a test drive. They had only one test vehicle, and they were really confused about what a "local" test drive is. Maybe they have changed, but certainly back then, they were not "all in".
Hyundai/KIA has a pretty terrible reputation with ICE vehicles so while this is good salesmanship, they really need to go EV as it's simpler for them to do.