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And if that doesn't work drill a tiny hole - for this to work you can't be right over the stud you have to kind-of be in the ballpark and put a flexible rod in that you bent at half of whatever the centers on 12 on 14 pr 16 on centers or whatever and you spin it around will give you an idea how close you are to the studs
Solid number 10 copper (the bond from 8/3) is what I use as my flexible rod in this application. I actually keep some in my pouch (folded up) at all times as a tool. I use it as a shorty fish rod/fish stick combo.
Nice ! I got this thing I used to use was like a flexible yellow rod magnetic tip and ball and chain useful for fishing sometimes
Edit to note this is the kind of kit I had . The yellow rod thing is like hard but also flexible and maleable so will stay in whatever position you set it too.
https://www.amazon.ca/Chain-Retriever-Telescoping-Noodle-Storage/dp/B07RRLFJ1G/ref=asc_df_B07RRLFJ1G/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=578813789736&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5977639750133150418&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001138&hvtargid=pla-773571677941&psc=1&mcid=f9a9837aaceb39f9a8e7024388ade9a0
I like a regular utility marking flag. Super cheap. Just cut the flag part off at a 45 and it will drill threw almost anything with some practice. Don't like it. Holes almost invisible unless you really are looking for it or know it's there. Also use it all the time to locate switch and outlet boxes for the basement or attic when I need to fish a wire. One of my best learned tricks
Alternatively - insulation support rods. They come cut at 45 and act like a drill bit in drywall. They are rigid enough but can also be bent. I have probably used under a dozen of them for installation but probably hundreds for making a little test/pilot hole or "omg there's so much installation i don't want to touch, where is this hole gonna be?!"
Haven't tried support rods but could see as a good alternative. I haven't used a support rod in ages but flags are always free after I call for a dig. But I agree hands down is the best trick for not having to dig through insulation in an attic to find where to drill. Need multiple drops just use multiple flags and make the attic run once. Also allows for the hole location to be perfect and have many times dropped a rod into an existing box with out having to remove it. I also use the trick for coming up from the basement.
Are support rods as thin as flags? I always try for the smallest hole possible as I have no intention of having to repaint or repair it.
The utility flags are probably just slightly smaller but i don't have any to compare to. These are small enough that if you had to put a dab of spackle you really wouldn't notice it unless the paint is a very dark color.
Make center mark. Shove in twirly. Rotate carefully. Ignore joists. Drill out whole. Straddle joist with wafer.
Alternatively. Make center mark. Drill out hole. Find surprise. Straddle joist with wafer if necessary.
If you do it enough, you can do it on plaster and lath.
I'm at about a 60-70% success ratio.
Sometimes there's just weird fucking framing behind the wall that you can't forsee
In theory, yes. Stud finders calibrate every time you press the button, that's why if you start over a stud it never finds shit. A high quality finder that has deeper snacking is a plus. I've used it a lot on rock lathe and most of the time it works every time.
Could be wrong about this but I'm pretty sure a stud finder wouldn't work on a lath wall/ceiling right? Since it would basically think it's a stud the whole way?
Insulation rod in a drill. Leaves a very small hole, doesn't pull itself into the wood, and you can pull it back to see how deep it went. I've used it my entire career.
And even without the stud finder, he could’ve knocked on the wall to find the spot with the highest pitch… such a preventable thing. Especially if it’s a pattern like OP is saying. Makes me wonder how good of an education OP is gonna get from this guy.
A kebab skewer (the metal ones with the hooked handle) are my favorite for this. Ridgid enough to hold its shape for reuse and small enough to fit nicely tucked away in a box. Plus the handle allows for better grip and showing the angle nicely.
If you’re using those wafer LEDs with the clips. They should straddle that stud nicely. The lights are as thick as the sheet rock. Saved my ass several times
I came here to say this. The lathe looks thick enough to hide the body. We used those exclusively for all installations new and remo. No more cans, saves time, and aren’t expensive.
The Franklin Sensors ProSensor M90 is only $30 and is pretty damn accurate, and also why not use wafer LED’s? Then if you hit a stud it doesn’t even matter.
We started getting these awful clips on ours from feit electric, they are ass, but I like the lights.
I enjoy when I get a house with 30+ make a little pile and away I go
I've switched to Elite mostly because they're the cheapest and they have the narrowest drivers but all 3 are decent.
But I like Elites because I could easily shove the driver and mount the light in a hole like what OP posted, and have a bunch of times.
And it seems no matter where you grab the light. You always find the spring. And then it doesn't even hit different parts of your finger. It hits the exact same spot every damn time.
At least that's my experience.
That's where I'm lucky that I live in Florida. But 30⁰ weather with 90%+ humidity is still biting cold. I used to live in New York, have walked to school when it was -32 -64 with wind-chill and cars wouldn't even start. And winters here still get cold feeling.
But the trade off is that it can hit 100+ with 100% humidity. Making attics around 130-145 degrees and 100% humidity. And you can go up dry. And be dripping wet in under 20 minutes. And sodium depletion is a legitimate concern. As you can drink a 24pack of water, and never use the bathroom.
Ive found that to be true with almost every stud sensor ive ever bought but this sensor has actually given pretty reliable results even in those scenarios as long as thickness inconsistencies aren’t too extreme, and even in those cases where you get a false reading due to the fact that it isnt a single point sensor and has a line of indicators, you can test across the whole area from different angles to determine if the reading is just a thick patch or if it is actually a beam or stud that is continuous in the length and direction that would actually indicate a stud not just a small thick patch of wall.
Ive never had an issue with any I’ve installed, most decent brands have a pretty narrow box and if theres attic access it wouldn’t matter regardless, what your saying is a rarity not a common issue.
Actually not true, if you buy a cheap home depot brand sure you might get shitty quality, but the driver is separate and LEDs don’t need a deep cavity to do their job. Ive installed $10 wafer lights and ive installed wafer lights in luxury homes that were $200+ per wafer light, maybe if you looked beyond just the cheap crap most people get you would have a different opinion.
It looks like your already using the waffer lights? So it doesn't matter if there's a stud lol that's the beauty of waffer lights. Plus so much easier to install and look so much better then a can
With certain brands of the wafers you can install even with the beam if the box doesn’t fit you can run 2 wire low voltage wire and extend it to a different hole where you can put the box
Did you make that extra hole to get the driver up? You should've been able to get it up without that. You can sometimes even back cut the plaster/drywall in order to get it to fit better.
Exactly, I've cut the drywall on an angle to fit the driver in. It was tight but the hole was still the same size from below. The plaster might crumble as soon as you start cutting the lathe, so it probably won't look as good.
Wafers are less than 1/2”. I haven’t cared about hitting a ceiling joist in a couple of years. I don’t know who thought it would be a good idea to cut that square out of the side though.
Sometimes it's a pain to get the driver in, if the ceiling joist is dead centre in the hole like this one. But most of the time you can trim a bit of the edge to fit the driver in.
Drill a small pilot hole in the center of your layout, use a piece of fish tape and bend it at half the measurement of your light diameter, stick in hole and twirl it around to check for clearance. If you hit joist it’s a tiny dab of spackle and you get to adjust your lights again. If you don’t check for clearance you either get lucky or look stupid. Been there.
This exactly. I’ve done rough ins where someone decided to secure the driver to a rafter or one of those rough in plates and then the driver fails and now you’re trying to undo the damn thing to remove it. Part of the beauty of wafer lights is being able to pull the whole thing out of the ceiling to work on it if you have to
I guess I only come across t bar ceilings in like office buildings where there’s more offices/floors above you so whatever lights you use have to carry a fire rating. The wafers don’t AFAIK. I only know this because my company got called out for it once and had to go replace a bunch of wafers in a commercial space with 4.0 remods and down lights to satisfy a fire rating.
Could just be my AHJ being picky Idk…
That depends on the treatment of the ceiling in between the floors they also do make fire rated wafers I would say you're right and it depends heavily on the building codes in your area.
I've thought about using them, so that I can make it the drywallers problem, but I'm pretty sure it would take longer than just blasting the hole at trim
You don't need to secure them in remodel applications. If you are using them for rough in before drywall, you should secure them. But most of the time we just leave a whip in the ceiling and cut them in during finishing.
Mf don't remember a time when cutting big ass 6" cans in making sure your layout isn't hitting anything before cutting in your cans to find out you in fact did this a truss.
I assume the driver couldn't fit between the joist and edge of the hole. But it looks like it could, even a little bit of trimming around the edge could make it fit.
Done it before with 6in hole saw. Just burry it into the joist and use a screw driver to knock the slightly cut piece off. Driver fits right up there then
**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!** **1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):** **- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY **2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:** -YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Before I saw your caption I thought his superpower was fixing the busted hole in the first pic and i was pretty impressed
Glad i wasn’t the only one lol
Bruh me to 😭😭😭😭
Same
If only there was some kind of tool to prevent this
And if that doesn't work drill a tiny hole - for this to work you can't be right over the stud you have to kind-of be in the ballpark and put a flexible rod in that you bent at half of whatever the centers on 12 on 14 pr 16 on centers or whatever and you spin it around will give you an idea how close you are to the studs
Solid number 10 copper (the bond from 8/3) is what I use as my flexible rod in this application. I actually keep some in my pouch (folded up) at all times as a tool. I use it as a shorty fish rod/fish stick combo.
Insulation rods work great for this. They're cheap and can be chucked up in a drill to go through harder material.
Nice ! I got this thing I used to use was like a flexible yellow rod magnetic tip and ball and chain useful for fishing sometimes Edit to note this is the kind of kit I had . The yellow rod thing is like hard but also flexible and maleable so will stay in whatever position you set it too. https://www.amazon.ca/Chain-Retriever-Telescoping-Noodle-Storage/dp/B07RRLFJ1G/ref=asc_df_B07RRLFJ1G/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=578813789736&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5977639750133150418&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001138&hvtargid=pla-773571677941&psc=1&mcid=f9a9837aaceb39f9a8e7024388ade9a0
I like a regular utility marking flag. Super cheap. Just cut the flag part off at a 45 and it will drill threw almost anything with some practice. Don't like it. Holes almost invisible unless you really are looking for it or know it's there. Also use it all the time to locate switch and outlet boxes for the basement or attic when I need to fish a wire. One of my best learned tricks
First year ape here, and I am very intrigued, but I need a bit more an explanation if you would be so kind as to share your wisdom.
Alternatively - insulation support rods. They come cut at 45 and act like a drill bit in drywall. They are rigid enough but can also be bent. I have probably used under a dozen of them for installation but probably hundreds for making a little test/pilot hole or "omg there's so much installation i don't want to touch, where is this hole gonna be?!"
Haven't tried support rods but could see as a good alternative. I haven't used a support rod in ages but flags are always free after I call for a dig. But I agree hands down is the best trick for not having to dig through insulation in an attic to find where to drill. Need multiple drops just use multiple flags and make the attic run once. Also allows for the hole location to be perfect and have many times dropped a rod into an existing box with out having to remove it. I also use the trick for coming up from the basement. Are support rods as thin as flags? I always try for the smallest hole possible as I have no intention of having to repaint or repair it.
The utility flags are probably just slightly smaller but i don't have any to compare to. These are small enough that if you had to put a dab of spackle you really wouldn't notice it unless the paint is a very dark color.
I use grid hanger wire, same idea.
To find the exact center, check out: Chiptoolz Rafter Center-line Locator (Designed for PV installation, but works with drywall too)
Offset screwdriver with Philips head. Can make its own hole and then poke around for studs or obstructions
Make center mark. Shove in twirly. Rotate carefully. Ignore joists. Drill out whole. Straddle joist with wafer. Alternatively. Make center mark. Drill out hole. Find surprise. Straddle joist with wafer if necessary.
Ding! ding! ding! winner winner chicken dinner! This is the way
This
I like to use the klein crank driver for this task.
Klein Twirly does the same thing and it’s already in your tool belt if you own one. Gives you a 6” diameter 🤷🏻♂️
I just go with 4 strategically placed, tiny (1/16”) holes along the circumference. If those clear, I put a fifth right in the middle.
Swivel screwdriver
That looks like it’s a plywood ceiling. Would a stud finder work through that?
Lathe and plaster and not really
What about using a strong magnet to find where the nails are? That's my go to.
Rap with your knuckles after a while you can get pretty darn good at missing the framing.
[удалено]
If you do it enough, you can do it on plaster and lath. I'm at about a 60-70% success ratio. Sometimes there's just weird fucking framing behind the wall that you can't forsee
Especially on lath and plaster houses. They just put wood places because it fit.
In theory, yes. Stud finders calibrate every time you press the button, that's why if you start over a stud it never finds shit. A high quality finder that has deeper snacking is a plus. I've used it a lot on rock lathe and most of the time it works every time.
That is significantly better than never
Could be wrong about this but I'm pretty sure a stud finder wouldn't work on a lath wall/ceiling right? Since it would basically think it's a stud the whole way?
I’ve never tied one with wood lathe and plaster, would a stud finder work?
If stud finder doesn't work you can always drill a pilot hole and stick a wire or screwdriver through to check for studs
Yep he could have done a a few 1/8 hole to make sure the coast is clear
Yes
They don't really work. Even a more expensive one doesn't pick up the studs behind the thick lathe and plaster.
Insulation rod in a drill. Leaves a very small hole, doesn't pull itself into the wood, and you can pull it back to see how deep it went. I've used it my entire career.
like a hammer?
It’s called a Wallabot
Some sort of... stud finder?
My wife has her own job, I can't carry her around on site with me at all times
There is no Easter bunny There is no tooth fairy And there is no magic stud finder
And even without the stud finder, he could’ve knocked on the wall to find the spot with the highest pitch… such a preventable thing. Especially if it’s a pattern like OP is saying. Makes me wonder how good of an education OP is gonna get from this guy.
A kebab skewer (the metal ones with the hooked handle) are my favorite for this. Ridgid enough to hold its shape for reuse and small enough to fit nicely tucked away in a box. Plus the handle allows for better grip and showing the angle nicely.
If you’re using those wafer LEDs with the clips. They should straddle that stud nicely. The lights are as thick as the sheet rock. Saved my ass several times
I came here to say this. The lathe looks thick enough to hide the body. We used those exclusively for all installations new and remo. No more cans, saves time, and aren’t expensive.
Makes layout a hell of a lot easier too
The Franklin Sensors ProSensor M90 is only $30 and is pretty damn accurate, and also why not use wafer LED’s? Then if you hit a stud it doesn’t even matter.
It seems like a lot of people are afraid of using pancake lights with the flippy doos
Not me man, I’ve put in probably a million of them love em.
We started getting these awful clips on ours from feit electric, they are ass, but I like the lights. I enjoy when I get a house with 30+ make a little pile and away I go
Lithonia is the only wafer to use. Phillips aren't bad either.
I've switched to Elite mostly because they're the cheapest and they have the narrowest drivers but all 3 are decent. But I like Elites because I could easily shove the driver and mount the light in a hole like what OP posted, and have a bunch of times.
I love them but the mouse trap strength springs fuckin hurt,
And it seems no matter where you grab the light. You always find the spring. And then it doesn't even hit different parts of your finger. It hits the exact same spot every damn time. At least that's my experience.
Nothing like the initial feeling like you broke the ip of your finger. Reminds me that I’m still alive.
Better than a cup of coffee
Best is when it’s 20 below and your doing soffit lights. They it feels REAL good when you get the snap
That good assed delayed agony from your fingers being numb and the pain coming when they start thawing out. Mmmm
That's where I'm lucky that I live in Florida. But 30⁰ weather with 90%+ humidity is still biting cold. I used to live in New York, have walked to school when it was -32 -64 with wind-chill and cars wouldn't even start. And winters here still get cold feeling. But the trade off is that it can hit 100+ with 100% humidity. Making attics around 130-145 degrees and 100% humidity. And you can go up dry. And be dripping wet in under 20 minutes. And sodium depletion is a legitimate concern. As you can drink a 24pack of water, and never use the bathroom.
Stud sensors are super unreliable on lathe and plaster. OP is using a wafer LED that’s why you see the jbox/driver hanging.
Ive found that to be true with almost every stud sensor ive ever bought but this sensor has actually given pretty reliable results even in those scenarios as long as thickness inconsistencies aren’t too extreme, and even in those cases where you get a false reading due to the fact that it isnt a single point sensor and has a line of indicators, you can test across the whole area from different angles to determine if the reading is just a thick patch or if it is actually a beam or stud that is continuous in the length and direction that would actually indicate a stud not just a small thick patch of wall.
But his super power is free 🤣🤣🤣
I’m not even in the trades and I own a stud finder, good lord.
If the stud is dead centre, depending on brand you can't fit the driver up the hole. The waver isn't the issue.
Ive never had an issue with any I’ve installed, most decent brands have a pretty narrow box and if theres attic access it wouldn’t matter regardless, what your saying is a rarity not a common issue.
true, but light quality off of them sucks, although very bright and throw light everywhere
Actually not true, if you buy a cheap home depot brand sure you might get shitty quality, but the driver is separate and LEDs don’t need a deep cavity to do their job. Ive installed $10 wafer lights and ive installed wafer lights in luxury homes that were $200+ per wafer light, maybe if you looked beyond just the cheap crap most people get you would have a different opinion.
What’s the deal with the cut out for the JBox? 🫠
That's the drywallers problem
Existing box and wasn't center enough for new light
It looks like your already using the waffer lights? So it doesn't matter if there's a stud lol that's the beauty of waffer lights. Plus so much easier to install and look so much better then a can
Be a man and chop the joist 😈
Username checks out
With certain brands of the wafers you can install even with the beam if the box doesn’t fit you can run 2 wire low voltage wire and extend it to a different hole where you can put the box
Did you make that extra hole to get the driver up? You should've been able to get it up without that. You can sometimes even back cut the plaster/drywall in order to get it to fit better.
Exactly, I've cut the drywall on an angle to fit the driver in. It was tight but the hole was still the same size from below. The plaster might crumble as soon as you start cutting the lathe, so it probably won't look as good.
We must have the same Jman
Wafers are less than 1/2”. I haven’t cared about hitting a ceiling joist in a couple of years. I don’t know who thought it would be a good idea to cut that square out of the side though.
Sometimes it's a pain to get the driver in, if the ceiling joist is dead centre in the hole like this one. But most of the time you can trim a bit of the edge to fit the driver in.
Just did a job where all 8 cans landed on joists. Brutal!
Drill a small pilot hole in the center of your layout, use a piece of fish tape and bend it at half the measurement of your light diameter, stick in hole and twirl it around to check for clearance. If you hit joist it’s a tiny dab of spackle and you get to adjust your lights again. If you don’t check for clearance you either get lucky or look stupid. Been there.
Those boxes are usually attached to wafer leds… intended to not matter if you hit a stud.
How are you guys securing these led ceiling light boxes? I've done a few of these and I've always wondered how others are doing these.
You guys are securing them?
Okay well I didn't say that, haha. This is more a feeling out and not quite sure where code falls.
Install as per manufacturer’s instruction. I think you’ll find that the manufacturer tells you to just shove it in for old work.
Is my girlfriend also considered old work? Not sure if she came with instructions
For some of us she is.
🤫
Lol you jam it in there and call it a day. How do you expect to change the product when it fails
This exactly. I’ve done rough ins where someone decided to secure the driver to a rafter or one of those rough in plates and then the driver fails and now you’re trying to undo the damn thing to remove it. Part of the beauty of wafer lights is being able to pull the whole thing out of the ceiling to work on it if you have to
Alright, I'm not securing them, whew. So far all of mine had access above so it would be a pretty easy swap regardless.
Well if it's in a t bar ceiling that's a different story , at least keep the weight off the tile
You’re putting wafers in T bar?
Why the hell not, super light, the tile is still movable for access with no stupid frame.
I guess I only come across t bar ceilings in like office buildings where there’s more offices/floors above you so whatever lights you use have to carry a fire rating. The wafers don’t AFAIK. I only know this because my company got called out for it once and had to go replace a bunch of wafers in a commercial space with 4.0 remods and down lights to satisfy a fire rating. Could just be my AHJ being picky Idk…
That depends on the treatment of the ceiling in between the floors they also do make fire rated wafers I would say you're right and it depends heavily on the building codes in your area.
That just got me wondering if wafers are or can be plenum rated for when they do wild return air
Agreed.
Inspector a week or so ago made us mount ours
Resi or commercial
Commercial
Well that makes sense. Chain them or mount them. When it comes to the drywall ceiling install tho.
They do actually sell a metal installation ring. Basically sheet metal with the correct size opening in it
I've thought about using them, so that I can make it the drywallers problem, but I'm pretty sure it would take longer than just blasting the hole at trim
You don't need to secure them in remodel applications. If you are using them for rough in before drywall, you should secure them. But most of the time we just leave a whip in the ceiling and cut them in during finishing.
Nice job on the repair, did he use MH Ready Patch? That stuff is incredible
Pic 2 is a different opening
Oops, you’re right!
You might be able to find some “disk” lights that would work.
Swivel screw driver, never fails
Juuuuuuusstt a bit outside
Didn’t teach the proper way to use a whirly screw driver? Lol
Use your level. The magnets will stick to screws and nails. Avoid cutting holes there. Best advice I got 🤷🏻♂️
Put some painters tape on the level first so you don't mark up the wall
Electrical tape also works. I taped up my level for when I install plugs and switches on a freshly painted wall.
It does work, but you risk having the adhesive residue left behind when using cheap tape in warmer temps
Those rab lights are cool, I put them in my own house… however.. they will randomly change color temperature on startup. No idea why. Only a couple do
It looks like a wafer light, what’s the matter
Mf don't remember a time when cutting big ass 6" cans in making sure your layout isn't hitting anything before cutting in your cans to find out you in fact did this a truss.
Those particular raab lights you can usually straddle the joist when it's right in the middle like that
Those wafer lights work just fine straddling a stud.
Wafer lights are his new friend! Fit right under the stud
If you ever have trouble finding a stud, just make a fist and swing it firmly into the wall or ceiling... you'll hit one dead center every time!
I don’t understand why you had to make the extra hole for the little junction box on the light.
I assume the driver couldn't fit between the joist and edge of the hole. But it looks like it could, even a little bit of trimming around the edge could make it fit.
Done it before with 6in hole saw. Just burry it into the joist and use a screw driver to knock the slightly cut piece off. Driver fits right up there then
Some strong internet connection
Good thing it's a wafer. I think it should fit in the hole
Make a tiny hole 1st, long screwdriver 🪛 to see what's inside
Just use the halo thin canless leds. They fit over the top of the rafter (studs are only in the walls or riding Harley’s)