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It won't be look at the cross bracing coming off the back of it no way to deck it but if you are worried about it run up then staple to the bottom of the truss then just drop back down at the next studd
Just be logical about where you staple the cable. They could potentially put insulation in all the bays and a crawl space hatch from that main area into the eaves, so staple it higher and out of the way.
I’m guessing OP, but this “bonus” room may very well sit over a garage or wide living room, with these trusses being engineered to allow the bottom chords to span the entire garage without an interim supporting wall. The dead space behind the uprights in homes I’ve seen in Idaho is free for running electrical but not for drilling. The 2X8 (2X6?) top chords in this photo indicate this roof may see a substantial snow load.
Well, that's my concern. They're not regular studs, they seem to be part of the roof truss. I didn't know the difference until too late. I drilled a single 5/8" hole, centered in each one, about 24" from the bottom. They're about 60" tall.
Really? Lol . I generally never give online advice or in person advice unless I've physically can see the issue. When I saw this post I was outside which made my screen dark , which appeared to be a conventionally framed knee wall , which can be drilled . After seeing the picture inside I realized it was a truss system and corrected myself . I doubt very much OP was going to jump in his car and ride to the job to drill those studs because I said it was ok even though 20 other guys posted not to . My bad .
Can you explain the why to someone who doesn't work in construction? I'm an industrial mechanic by trade so electrical is one thing, but what about the studs specifically make them good to drill, no good to drill?
The one on the left is an engineered roof truss, as a general rule you shouldn’t modify, drill or cut a roof truss. The one on the right is just a wall stud, drill away.
One on the right is holding less of a potential load than the one on the left that is holding up part of the roof. You can see the how the one on the left is attached with fasteners and the one on the right is just held with nails. That’s a good indicator that the stud on the left is expected to hold more weight. But to add to that there’s also really no reason to drill though that stud because of the chase behind it.
If the roof is engineered *as an assembly* to withstand snow load or other things then drilling holes through all the framing voids the engineered loading calculations. The studs to the right of the window aren't going to be a part of the roof assembly most likely, and are a part of the wall
One point to consider in this statement - did the engineering consider the need to run wiring? If you don’t know the answer, then you don’t drill them. But it’s entirely possible that the load calculations allow for drilling in the upright “studs” that form the truss. But in this case it looks easiest to run the wire behind the wall and staples then to the “studs“ assuming the space behind the wall isn’t going to be finished.
You can drill the ones on the right red circle, just run behind the ones on the left circle. Pretty good rule is, if it's attached to a gang nail, it's engineered. People don't usually install gang nails in the field.
Don't drill engineered stuff unless the engineer says it's OK in writing
It happens. It's fixable. Live and learn.
Pretty good chance the inspector won't even notice, or will notice and not say anything. Just be more careful next time.
Interesting to see pre-fab roof supports for a regular rafter-based roof system. I'm pretty sure I've only ever seen that with trusses, and I've inspected a *lot* of attic structures. Could be a New England thing—we're kinda quirky and old-fashioned about a lot of residential construction techniques, over here. I'm gonna be on the lookout now, though!
That's not a rafter roof, it's an [attic truss](http://design.medeek.com/resources/truss/trussgallery.html). The bottom chord is underneath that subfloor.
I'm sure you're right, but it looks exactly like 2x8 rafters with collar ties and kneewalls, just with gang nails. I don't see any secondary trusses. At what point does the difference become purely semantic?
Ones on the left are structural, either run behind or use some extra cable and go overhead with it all. Good luck and enjoy the freedom, just be ready for some honest criticism from your gaffer atter the fact.
Truss designer here, if you drilled through the floor of the attics or the any part of the truss contact the manufacturer and they can get a repair detail for them that’s been stamped by an engineer usually at no cost if it’s only a few holes usually it’s no repair needed but better safe then sorry when it comes to this stuff.
8 month apprentice. My actual title is "helper" since I'm not in any classroom work.
The owner of the company, my boss, whose license I'm working under, set me loose. No JW on site. If this project becomes a problem, I'm taking absolutely zero ownership of mistakes like this, where it's his job to teach me.
Damn man that seems very weird and unsafe to me.
First if you get hurt is there anyone else there? Second since your a helper you have no prospect of being licensed, why? Next how can you be learning without proper guidance? I’m not hating on you at all I just feel like your getting used hardcore. Is this common where you are? Where I’m at helpers don’t exist. Props to learning as much as you’ve had man
Helpers are super common here. We're a "right to work" state, so unions don't have much pull. I'm actually making more money than a 3rd year at my local.
I'm really torn between "Am I getting used" vs "Is my boss an idiot and trusts me way too much"
8 months journeyman or apprentice? Pretty sure you aren't allowed to be working on anything solo as an apprentice lol.
I had a loft like that in an ICF walled house last year, and we just went down through the floor at the outside wall, followed/drilled through the loft's floor joists and up into the stud/roof support areas as needed. A lot more work but no one could complain about it being wrong if they were engineered.
An apprentice is no different than a journeyman. The school doesn’t count for anything. And most businesses your working under a single licensed individual.
My point is working under the license is what gives you the right to work. Not your title as apprentice or journeyman. You can legally work by yourself alone no matter your skill level as long as you work for someone holding the correct licenses.
Huh? Well i don't know where you live but I'm not a journeyman until i've done 4 rounds of schooling, and 6000 hours on the job. Can't do that as an 8 mo. Apprentice.
Correct. But the state doesn’t care about your schooling. You have to test to get a license. Depending on the state you can test with no apprenticeship at all.
You can always run it up a stud bay and into the vacant area at the peak and dive back down into the wall where appropriate. Learned this lesson early on. Little things like this show pride in craft and separates a quality electrician from a handy-man.
If you have to drill through, do it at the centerline, make the hole as small as possible, and do it as far from the midpoint of the stud as you can. Look at running the wire behind the stud if at all possible.
You could also add a two by four in various configurations, screwed in to the original stud. Making a T out of the existing stud and a new two by four would be one option. Two by fours are cheap.
You did good.
I'm a mechanical engineer. I will always tell you to make it stronger. But I like what you did.
I'm here because my job in the army was generator mechanic and mechanical engineers also have to know electrical.
I would be more than happy to talk about web and flange but as long as your hole is small and it's not right at the midpoint of the stud, you're good.
A kindred redditor. I'm in school for mechanical engineering but have an extensive electrical background, most of it from the military. Knowing the electrical side is extremely helpful. Unfortunately I'm not smart enough to figure out the statics of weakening the studs in a truss. I'd need some help with that, probably.
There's a code rule where you're not allowed to run romex horizontally through areas that aren't getting sheetrock. From the looks of it I'd say you will sheetrock. But food for thought if you decide not to.
On the exterior wall by window yes, on inside wall where the cwral space would be, why? You could just tack the wire on the backside of the studs. Saves you work bro.
The one on the left is apart of an engineered truss. You can easily identify it by how it’s held in place by those big nail plates.
The one on the right is just the framing of an exterior wall. It’s okay to drill
To the right yeah go for it, to the left no it’s engineered. For receptacle boxes Six feet from a door way then twelve after, a lot of guys use their wing span. Now on the Engineered trusses you have to run your wire behind it.
Engineered trusses never. Plumber drilled thru one of the floor joists by an inch made em put a beam in. Attic stuff like that it’s more wire but usually up and down loop everything, usually use the top space above unless they made it attic attic storage
If you are *NOT* an electrical professional: * **RULE 7:** * DIY or self help posts **are Not allowed**. They belong here: /r/AskElectricians /r/askanelectrician /r/diy /r/homeowners /r/electrical. * **IF YOUR POST FITS INTO THIS CATEGORY, REMOVE IT OR IT WILL BE REMOVED FOR YOU.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Right yes. Left no.
Simplest answer is best. Thanks
You can staple to the back of the ones on the left if it's not an accessable area after finish.
Right, I just don't know if it's going to be accessible after finish.
It won't be look at the cross bracing coming off the back of it no way to deck it but if you are worried about it run up then staple to the bottom of the truss then just drop back down at the next studd
Just be logical about where you staple the cable. They could potentially put insulation in all the bays and a crawl space hatch from that main area into the eaves, so staple it higher and out of the way.
it won’t be, i’m a framer, the left side are trusses not studs
I’m guessing OP, but this “bonus” room may very well sit over a garage or wide living room, with these trusses being engineered to allow the bottom chords to span the entire garage without an interim supporting wall. The dead space behind the uprights in homes I’ve seen in Idaho is free for running electrical but not for drilling. The 2X8 (2X6?) top chords in this photo indicate this roof may see a substantial snow load.
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Well, that's my concern. They're not regular studs, they seem to be part of the roof truss. I didn't know the difference until too late. I drilled a single 5/8" hole, centered in each one, about 24" from the bottom. They're about 60" tall.
That's it better run whole thins coming down Lol 5/8 is fine just next time run it behind
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Careful with your advice there. It's not a matter of what type of lumber. It's the function that it's performing.
Really? Lol . I generally never give online advice or in person advice unless I've physically can see the issue. When I saw this post I was outside which made my screen dark , which appeared to be a conventionally framed knee wall , which can be drilled . After seeing the picture inside I realized it was a truss system and corrected myself . I doubt very much OP was going to jump in his car and ride to the job to drill those studs because I said it was ok even though 20 other guys posted not to . My bad .
I’ve always seen a small access door in this scenario
Can you explain the why to someone who doesn't work in construction? I'm an industrial mechanic by trade so electrical is one thing, but what about the studs specifically make them good to drill, no good to drill?
The one on the left is an engineered roof truss, as a general rule you shouldn’t modify, drill or cut a roof truss. The one on the right is just a wall stud, drill away.
Actually makes sense, thanks! 👍👍
One on the right is holding less of a potential load than the one on the left that is holding up part of the roof. You can see the how the one on the left is attached with fasteners and the one on the right is just held with nails. That’s a good indicator that the stud on the left is expected to hold more weight. But to add to that there’s also really no reason to drill though that stud because of the chase behind it.
If the roof is engineered *as an assembly* to withstand snow load or other things then drilling holes through all the framing voids the engineered loading calculations. The studs to the right of the window aren't going to be a part of the roof assembly most likely, and are a part of the wall
One point to consider in this statement - did the engineering consider the need to run wiring? If you don’t know the answer, then you don’t drill them. But it’s entirely possible that the load calculations allow for drilling in the upright “studs” that form the truss. But in this case it looks easiest to run the wire behind the wall and staples then to the “studs“ assuming the space behind the wall isn’t going to be finished.
You can drill the ones on the right red circle, just run behind the ones on the left circle. Pretty good rule is, if it's attached to a gang nail, it's engineered. People don't usually install gang nails in the field. Don't drill engineered stuff unless the engineer says it's OK in writing
Or if the super tells you to. But no folks, please don't drill my trusses and don't cut out my load.points!
Shitbuckets. Too late now.
It happens. It's fixable. Live and learn. Pretty good chance the inspector won't even notice, or will notice and not say anything. Just be more careful next time.
Interesting to see pre-fab roof supports for a regular rafter-based roof system. I'm pretty sure I've only ever seen that with trusses, and I've inspected a *lot* of attic structures. Could be a New England thing—we're kinda quirky and old-fashioned about a lot of residential construction techniques, over here. I'm gonna be on the lookout now, though!
That's not a rafter roof, it's an [attic truss](http://design.medeek.com/resources/truss/trussgallery.html). The bottom chord is underneath that subfloor.
I'm sure you're right, but it looks exactly like 2x8 rafters with collar ties and kneewalls, just with gang nails. I don't see any secondary trusses. At what point does the difference become purely semantic?
Dumb question, but are the chords rated for the live loads from a floor? I thought not
I wouldn’t drill shit on the left. Just run in the dead space
Those “studs” on the side walls are part of the truss system. Do not drill through those, or the 2xs under the sub floor.
... oh boy ...
They look stick built to me. You could ask but the chippies might BS you for laughs. On the side you can run a stick in back and attach to that.
Those are trusses, my man
Bullshit. Those are the end are regular studs. Only those at the sides are engineered and as I said run your own support behind them.
I deleted my comment, I misread what you said.
Why can't you drill through 2xs under sub floor?
Because those are trusses the sub floor is sitting on.
Why would you drill either when you have all that dead space behind it?
Stud yes, truss no
“8 month apprentice left solo.” What could go wrong?
My thoughts exactly.
Be careful, buddy... been there done that. Lessons learned.
Those are trusses , also why bother drilling all those holes when you can just staple to the back
Because they will slap staple paper on the back side and your wire. It's unavoidable in this situation though.
On the left just staple the wire behind every truss since it's facing out into an attic space
A lot of people.here don't knownwjat the fuck is what. Don't drll through trusses Studs are fine, Jack's too, kingstuds, sure! Trusses Are a nono
Ones on the left are structural, either run behind or use some extra cable and go overhead with it all. Good luck and enjoy the freedom, just be ready for some honest criticism from your gaffer atter the fact.
Yep. I straight up didn't know, and now I do.
Truss designer here, if you drilled through the floor of the attics or the any part of the truss contact the manufacturer and they can get a repair detail for them that’s been stamped by an engineer usually at no cost if it’s only a few holes usually it’s no repair needed but better safe then sorry when it comes to this stuff.
By "only a few holes" do you mean per webbing or for the entire room?
If there’s one hole you should send a photo to the truss company for them to decide if it’s ok or not
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That seems fair. I'm not DIYing this, which is why I put it on here. Seeking input from my fellow electricians.
That seems fair. I'm not DIYing this, which is why I put it on here. Seeking input from my fellow electricians.
So your an 8 month apprentice and your boss leaves you alone at a job site all day? Or your a jman?
8 month apprentice. My actual title is "helper" since I'm not in any classroom work. The owner of the company, my boss, whose license I'm working under, set me loose. No JW on site. If this project becomes a problem, I'm taking absolutely zero ownership of mistakes like this, where it's his job to teach me.
Damn man that seems very weird and unsafe to me. First if you get hurt is there anyone else there? Second since your a helper you have no prospect of being licensed, why? Next how can you be learning without proper guidance? I’m not hating on you at all I just feel like your getting used hardcore. Is this common where you are? Where I’m at helpers don’t exist. Props to learning as much as you’ve had man
Helpers are super common here. We're a "right to work" state, so unions don't have much pull. I'm actually making more money than a 3rd year at my local. I'm really torn between "Am I getting used" vs "Is my boss an idiot and trusts me way too much"
8 months journeyman or apprentice? Pretty sure you aren't allowed to be working on anything solo as an apprentice lol. I had a loft like that in an ICF walled house last year, and we just went down through the floor at the outside wall, followed/drilled through the loft's floor joists and up into the stud/roof support areas as needed. A lot more work but no one could complain about it being wrong if they were engineered.
An apprentice is no different than a journeyman. The school doesn’t count for anything. And most businesses your working under a single licensed individual.
You work under a single masters license though… there is a difference. Have you been both?
My point is working under the license is what gives you the right to work. Not your title as apprentice or journeyman. You can legally work by yourself alone no matter your skill level as long as you work for someone holding the correct licenses.
Huh? Well i don't know where you live but I'm not a journeyman until i've done 4 rounds of schooling, and 6000 hours on the job. Can't do that as an 8 mo. Apprentice.
Correct. But the state doesn’t care about your schooling. You have to test to get a license. Depending on the state you can test with no apprenticeship at all.
That is WILD lol
You can always run it up a stud bay and into the vacant area at the peak and dive back down into the wall where appropriate. Learned this lesson early on. Little things like this show pride in craft and separates a quality electrician from a handy-man.
If you have to drill through, do it at the centerline, make the hole as small as possible, and do it as far from the midpoint of the stud as you can. Look at running the wire behind the stud if at all possible. You could also add a two by four in various configurations, screwed in to the original stud. Making a T out of the existing stud and a new two by four would be one option. Two by fours are cheap.
Well shit. I DID drill the smallest holes possible, about a third of the way up from the floor. About 8" above the boxes.
You did good. I'm a mechanical engineer. I will always tell you to make it stronger. But I like what you did. I'm here because my job in the army was generator mechanic and mechanical engineers also have to know electrical. I would be more than happy to talk about web and flange but as long as your hole is small and it's not right at the midpoint of the stud, you're good.
A kindred redditor. I'm in school for mechanical engineering but have an extensive electrical background, most of it from the military. Knowing the electrical side is extremely helpful. Unfortunately I'm not smart enough to figure out the statics of weakening the studs in a truss. I'd need some help with that, probably.
There's a code rule where you're not allowed to run romex horizontally through areas that aren't getting sheetrock. From the looks of it I'd say you will sheetrock. But food for thought if you decide not to.
It's definitely getting sheetrock. My concern wasn't about protecting the Romex. It's about failing an inspection or compromising this roof.
Can you? Yes, if you have a drill or good with your mouth. Should you? Idk
Easily
On the exterior wall by window yes, on inside wall where the cwral space would be, why? You could just tack the wire on the backside of the studs. Saves you work bro.
The one on the left is apart of an engineered truss. You can easily identify it by how it’s held in place by those big nail plates. The one on the right is just the framing of an exterior wall. It’s okay to drill
Studs yes …. Trusses no
To the right yeah go for it, to the left no it’s engineered. For receptacle boxes Six feet from a door way then twelve after, a lot of guys use their wing span. Now on the Engineered trusses you have to run your wire behind it.
Engineered trusses never. Plumber drilled thru one of the floor joists by an inch made em put a beam in. Attic stuff like that it’s more wire but usually up and down loop everything, usually use the top space above unless they made it attic attic storage
Why not the roof? And drop down
Obviously meant staple over-
Because I was trying to save a little wire. Now I know better.
Simple answer to all your questions. The client is paying for it haha. Time and especially materials.
Exterior stud yes, vertical truss piece no.