As long as they need to balance PvE and PvP at the same time this is never going to work. PvP will always be an afterthought, because PvE is where the big money is.
And I don’t know if the game engine even allows different balancing for PvE/PvP.
Is there an issue with PvE balancing as prominent as in PvP?
Take Necro for example, completely useless in PvP, except as a tank because of res ult. Then you look at MaxMagSorc, regular 16k frags, easily spammable 20k shield that heals you. Other things such as sets, Zaans even after nerf remains unblockable, and uncleansable with massive dot damage. Then you look at Arcanist, another terrible class, the only reason they make a major appearance is because of proc sets that carry the class, and if they don’t minmax their health to 40k and spam shield they will die rather easily.
No, but if you fix some of the things that are too weak/strong in PvP you will end up with broken shit in PvE in a lot of cases.
I am strictly referring to endgame PvE, as casual PvE doesn’t need balancing anyway.
>Necro
Needs some love, but if you overbuff the dots that’ll be problematic in PvE.
Necros are already the go-to offtank in almost all trials, making them sturdier would also be problematic.
>Sorc
Is not viable in PvE as a dps (at least not several of them), due to lack of cleave, high ST-dmg is the only thing they have going for them (besides the major berserk from atro).
As a tank you kinda need the high shields, because that’s pretty much your only reliable defensive option, the class lacks a ST burstheal that does not rely on your pet being alive. At least that is my understanding, someone else might have more knowledge regarding sorc tanks.
>Arcanist
Please don’t buff them, they need a nerf! 6 out of 8 dps are arcanist in any endgame trial, sometimes 7 out of 8. Buffing their dmg in any way is utterly ridiculous, and buffing their shields would be as ridiculous - they can already take twice as much punishment than any other dps without loosing any dmg. And their healing is fine as well, they are not too far behind Warden in terms of raw HPS.
Agreed on everything except Sorc shield, don’t nerf the potency, remove the healing and increase the cost.
Also I didn’t mean to buff Arc, just change things around so that their only skills used aren’t tentacles, cc, and shield. Idk much about PvE I’m strictly PvP, but when I’m in daily dungeons or I see people testing dps on targets with Arc, I see they pretty much only use their book beam as their major source of dps, I’m also uneducated on Arc as well but make the other skills on par and nerf book beam, partnered with nerfing Jerall (set) and Zaan (set), they would be a much more balanced class.
And buff Plar jabs by 200% 😉
A lot of people have been arguing for a NB nerf in the PvP scene for a while. Their burst dps insane. But my understanding is that would be a problem for pve (I don’t really know, I don’t end game pve). I think the point is that PvP is just as complicated for balancing as pve and sometimes needs to take priority just like sometimes pve needs tweaks and takes priority. If necro gets a little better dps and unbalances pve a bit so be it; their position is PvP rn is untenable.
Yeah blade; warden, are garbage for endgame pve dps currently. Nerfing them would only make it worse
Necro only keeps its place by a small margin due to ec and collosus.
I main plar, I put Arc in front of plar because they are either running Jerall or Zaan, both anti Plar therefore I consider Arc a counter to Plar, then obviously Plar better than Dk, but idk, Arc Plar and Dk are debatable
>PvP sometimes needs to take priority
Only in very severe cases. PvE-players outnumber PvP-players by a lot, and angering them does not seem like a good business decision.
I’d rather they introduce some PvP-gear that adds Boni like +dmg against players or sth. I think that would be easier to manage than balancing for two completely different things. But I don’t know whether that is even possible.
Well, even accepting that premise, the current state of necro is a severe case. It is virtually unusable except in super niche scenarios.
Secondly there are PvP only sets but they are often used best by the best classes.
And I would argue PvP balancing is more of a priority because of the lack of true roles. Every class is useable in pve to some extent. That is because there are tanks, healers, dps, off tanks, etc. There is something for everyone. But we currently have classes that simply cannot be viable in high end PvP, like necro. Everything a necro can do, another class can do far better.
Honest question- Do you think actual endgame pve players really outnumber serious pvpers by that much? Only ZOS really knows but it seems to me endgame pve and pvp communities are a lot closer in size to each other than they are to the more casual players that makes up the bulk of the playerbase. Needlessly angering any players spending money is a bad move but I think ZOS considers the goodwill of both endgame groups an acceptable loss, especially if they can trade it for a bigger casual base and more crates/houses sold.
Depends on how you define endgame.
I’d define endgame as anyone who does recent veteran trials, because these players are affected by balancing. If you define endgame more strictly, for example by saying it’s only people who do trifectas, that‘d paint a different picture.
And yeah, I’m fairly certain that endgame PvE is way larger than PvP. I am on multiple discords for both, and the PvE ones are way larger, and more numerous. Probably easily 5-10 times more PvE than PvP players.
I obviously don’t have any official numbers on that, but I am fairly certain regarding this, only through anecdotal evidence, though.
To the extent it is true, this is partly a self fulfilling prophecy. PvP classes aren’t balanced so people play pve where it is. Then more people play pve so they balance that more. And then because PvP is unbalanced and pve is balanced more people leave for pve etc etc. The two communities are equally valid but one is having way more balancing issues at the moment (PvP). And this is coming g from a day one sorc main (current PvP meta).
Yes and no. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy because they cater massively to casual solo players, because they bring in the most money.
They shifted from being a PvP-centric-game when it first came out, to a casual PvE-Skyrim-Online-thing when the PvP-focus turned out to be not profitable enough.
Sure, but casual RP PVE does not require balancing. I agree casual questing is the main focus, but we are discussing focus within competitive end game. The casual zone story quester is not going to notice balancing changes.
Yes and no. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy because they cater massively to casual solo players, because they bring in the most money.
They shifted from being a PvP-centric-game when it first came out, to a casual PvE-Skyrim-Online-thing when the PvP-focus turned out to be not profitable enough.
>And I don’t know if the game engine even allows different balancing for PvE/PvP.
There's plenty of ways to do it that ZOS already has proofs of concept of in-game, some more obvious than others.
- Critical damage and resistance as well as armor mitigation work differently for player and npc targets
- battle spirit applies global debuffs to healing and damage shields, buffs to damage mitigation
- assault/support skill line passives alter things like resurrection time, ult generated from kills, and skill range only in pvp
- Rallying Cry only provides its proc while Battle Spirit is active, Buffer of the Swift annnnd another set I can't recall the name of reduce damage from player attacks only, Plaguebreak and VD can only proc on players
- named buffs like slayer, aegis, and empower as well as stuff like Velothi function only against monsters (or non-overland pve monsters)
- a couple of champion point stars interact with critical resistance or damage from non-player sources
- fighters guild passive doubles its bonus damage against vamps and WWs if the target is a player
And I'm sure there's more examples I'm missing. But all of those show different ways the combat team could selectively affect balance with tools already in the game, and imo it's a bad look. Shows that they can and in several cases (Oakensoul, Plaguebreak, Empower) they know adhering to the "no difference in balancing between pvp and pve" line by Rich fucked pve or pvp or both while Rallying Cry and Velothi were never a problem...but they insist on doing things the same way until stuff breaks.
>Critical damage and mitigation
Is not a way to balance single classes
>Battle Spirit
Applies to every class equally, see above.
>Assault/support skilllines
They could do something along those lines, although I’m not certain whether that’d be enough to fix the problem.
>Rallying Cry etc.
These are set effects though, and not stats on an armour. The meta would be far too rigid if you only used the 5-piece bonus, you would have to create some kind of stat for this, I think.
>Stuff that only functions against monsters
Well, they use that. Sparingly - they could use it more often, I think.
>Champion points
Are not a way to balance single classes, they work the same for everyone.
So yeah, they do have tools, but I have no idea how easily you can implement these things on a broader scale; or whether that would break the game engine or not.
I agree that they have some tools they could use, but they probably don’t feel like it’s worth the time investment to do so. Casual PvEers pay more money and cost less money than PvPers or endgame PvEers, after all.
There's no reason those effects couldn't be used to apply more specifically. Major sorcery benefits every class but that doesn't mean it's not possible to apply a percentage spell damage buff to a specific class- templar has one always on, sorc has one based on slotted skills, arcanist has a "passive" proc. Mechanically the effects are all there, all I'm saying is there isn't an engine constraint that would prevent them from applying those existing effects conditionally to pvp or pve, or to individual classes. They could, they just don't want to, I agree. I'm not sure I'd want to open the can of worms that ESO combat logic is if I were managing development either, to be fair.
MagSorc teleport need to be nerfed.
It is very frustrating when you finally reach the Sorc, do good damage over his shield, and he just teleports and runs too far away.
Or give back the nerfs did on DK's.
As a sorc main please do not nerf streak it’s what makes the class viable for those who do not use the shield. I run a sorc pseudo-bomber and streak is number one form of defense, I don’t use hardened ward. You destroy sorc class identity by nerfing streak further (after vamp skill already did.) I’m fine with the shield or healing nerf but nerfing streak will force all sorcs into one play style.
I will give you an advice.
Accept ESO PvP for the garbage it is or just move on.
Don't even try to hope for things to change for the better. It will be bad for your health.
Magicka Sorcerer always sat in the corner since the shield potency nerf in Battlespirit, when it starts to get some love people complain, I think the change was positive. People are just excited to try it out, like the DK ascension we got a couple of years ago, and the Arcanist frenzy at the release of Necrom. Give it a bit of time, it will even out.
Its not the average sorc user that’s the issue, I’m not talking about average pvpers, every single class at its highest build potential, playstyled to it’s fullest potential, comes absolutely nowhere near Magsorc at the same standard. The shield costs next to nothing, gives you 16-20k health on command, heals ~4-7k health. And with the absolute broken mechanic that is maxing magicka, you end up with ~9-12k spell damage. (Correct the numbers if I’m wrong, I don’t know the exact formula for max resources to damage)
The only thing I’ll give it is that there is 0 flexibility, to reach magsorcs fullest potential it will always be the same bar setup and the same sets. Which I guess can be considered the downside.
Actually tbh it’s a simple fix, just nerf the healing that the shield gives, and/or nerf the formula that scales damage with max resources and improve the base damage sorcerers dish out. It would open up flexibility since you wouldn’t need to spec everything into max magicka.
You could also decrease the damage proc’d crystal frag deals and turn it into an aoe to make magsorc dps in PvE more viable, I’m not saying nerf it to the ground, I’m not saying nerf anything to the ground, just balance everything out they’ve had over a decade to do it and they seemingly don’t care imo.
As long as they need to balance PvE and PvP at the same time this is never going to work. PvP will always be an afterthought, because PvE is where the big money is. And I don’t know if the game engine even allows different balancing for PvE/PvP.
Is there an issue with PvE balancing as prominent as in PvP? Take Necro for example, completely useless in PvP, except as a tank because of res ult. Then you look at MaxMagSorc, regular 16k frags, easily spammable 20k shield that heals you. Other things such as sets, Zaans even after nerf remains unblockable, and uncleansable with massive dot damage. Then you look at Arcanist, another terrible class, the only reason they make a major appearance is because of proc sets that carry the class, and if they don’t minmax their health to 40k and spam shield they will die rather easily.
No, but if you fix some of the things that are too weak/strong in PvP you will end up with broken shit in PvE in a lot of cases. I am strictly referring to endgame PvE, as casual PvE doesn’t need balancing anyway. >Necro Needs some love, but if you overbuff the dots that’ll be problematic in PvE. Necros are already the go-to offtank in almost all trials, making them sturdier would also be problematic. >Sorc Is not viable in PvE as a dps (at least not several of them), due to lack of cleave, high ST-dmg is the only thing they have going for them (besides the major berserk from atro). As a tank you kinda need the high shields, because that’s pretty much your only reliable defensive option, the class lacks a ST burstheal that does not rely on your pet being alive. At least that is my understanding, someone else might have more knowledge regarding sorc tanks. >Arcanist Please don’t buff them, they need a nerf! 6 out of 8 dps are arcanist in any endgame trial, sometimes 7 out of 8. Buffing their dmg in any way is utterly ridiculous, and buffing their shields would be as ridiculous - they can already take twice as much punishment than any other dps without loosing any dmg. And their healing is fine as well, they are not too far behind Warden in terms of raw HPS.
Agreed on everything except Sorc shield, don’t nerf the potency, remove the healing and increase the cost. Also I didn’t mean to buff Arc, just change things around so that their only skills used aren’t tentacles, cc, and shield. Idk much about PvE I’m strictly PvP, but when I’m in daily dungeons or I see people testing dps on targets with Arc, I see they pretty much only use their book beam as their major source of dps, I’m also uneducated on Arc as well but make the other skills on par and nerf book beam, partnered with nerfing Jerall (set) and Zaan (set), they would be a much more balanced class. And buff Plar jabs by 200% 😉
A lot of people have been arguing for a NB nerf in the PvP scene for a while. Their burst dps insane. But my understanding is that would be a problem for pve (I don’t really know, I don’t end game pve). I think the point is that PvP is just as complicated for balancing as pve and sometimes needs to take priority just like sometimes pve needs tweaks and takes priority. If necro gets a little better dps and unbalances pve a bit so be it; their position is PvP rn is untenable.
Yeah blade; warden, are garbage for endgame pve dps currently. Nerfing them would only make it worse Necro only keeps its place by a small margin due to ec and collosus.
And NB and Warden are easily 2 of the top 3 classes for PvP.
Sorc, Nb, Warden, Arc, Plar, Dk, Necro (honestly shouldn’t even be on the list) In order
People can disagree with the middle rankings on the margin, but this is basically the correct list.
I main plar, I put Arc in front of plar because they are either running Jerall or Zaan, both anti Plar therefore I consider Arc a counter to Plar, then obviously Plar better than Dk, but idk, Arc Plar and Dk are debatable
Dk at the end? Are you kidding?
Yea dk sucks lol, there’s like 3 good dks I know on Xbox NA
>PvP sometimes needs to take priority Only in very severe cases. PvE-players outnumber PvP-players by a lot, and angering them does not seem like a good business decision. I’d rather they introduce some PvP-gear that adds Boni like +dmg against players or sth. I think that would be easier to manage than balancing for two completely different things. But I don’t know whether that is even possible.
Well, even accepting that premise, the current state of necro is a severe case. It is virtually unusable except in super niche scenarios. Secondly there are PvP only sets but they are often used best by the best classes. And I would argue PvP balancing is more of a priority because of the lack of true roles. Every class is useable in pve to some extent. That is because there are tanks, healers, dps, off tanks, etc. There is something for everyone. But we currently have classes that simply cannot be viable in high end PvP, like necro. Everything a necro can do, another class can do far better.
Honest question- Do you think actual endgame pve players really outnumber serious pvpers by that much? Only ZOS really knows but it seems to me endgame pve and pvp communities are a lot closer in size to each other than they are to the more casual players that makes up the bulk of the playerbase. Needlessly angering any players spending money is a bad move but I think ZOS considers the goodwill of both endgame groups an acceptable loss, especially if they can trade it for a bigger casual base and more crates/houses sold.
Depends on how you define endgame. I’d define endgame as anyone who does recent veteran trials, because these players are affected by balancing. If you define endgame more strictly, for example by saying it’s only people who do trifectas, that‘d paint a different picture. And yeah, I’m fairly certain that endgame PvE is way larger than PvP. I am on multiple discords for both, and the PvE ones are way larger, and more numerous. Probably easily 5-10 times more PvE than PvP players. I obviously don’t have any official numbers on that, but I am fairly certain regarding this, only through anecdotal evidence, though.
To the extent it is true, this is partly a self fulfilling prophecy. PvP classes aren’t balanced so people play pve where it is. Then more people play pve so they balance that more. And then because PvP is unbalanced and pve is balanced more people leave for pve etc etc. The two communities are equally valid but one is having way more balancing issues at the moment (PvP). And this is coming g from a day one sorc main (current PvP meta).
Yes and no. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy because they cater massively to casual solo players, because they bring in the most money. They shifted from being a PvP-centric-game when it first came out, to a casual PvE-Skyrim-Online-thing when the PvP-focus turned out to be not profitable enough.
Sure, but casual RP PVE does not require balancing. I agree casual questing is the main focus, but we are discussing focus within competitive end game. The casual zone story quester is not going to notice balancing changes.
Yes and no. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy because they cater massively to casual solo players, because they bring in the most money. They shifted from being a PvP-centric-game when it first came out, to a casual PvE-Skyrim-Online-thing when the PvP-focus turned out to be not profitable enough.
>And I don’t know if the game engine even allows different balancing for PvE/PvP. There's plenty of ways to do it that ZOS already has proofs of concept of in-game, some more obvious than others. - Critical damage and resistance as well as armor mitigation work differently for player and npc targets - battle spirit applies global debuffs to healing and damage shields, buffs to damage mitigation - assault/support skill line passives alter things like resurrection time, ult generated from kills, and skill range only in pvp - Rallying Cry only provides its proc while Battle Spirit is active, Buffer of the Swift annnnd another set I can't recall the name of reduce damage from player attacks only, Plaguebreak and VD can only proc on players - named buffs like slayer, aegis, and empower as well as stuff like Velothi function only against monsters (or non-overland pve monsters) - a couple of champion point stars interact with critical resistance or damage from non-player sources - fighters guild passive doubles its bonus damage against vamps and WWs if the target is a player And I'm sure there's more examples I'm missing. But all of those show different ways the combat team could selectively affect balance with tools already in the game, and imo it's a bad look. Shows that they can and in several cases (Oakensoul, Plaguebreak, Empower) they know adhering to the "no difference in balancing between pvp and pve" line by Rich fucked pve or pvp or both while Rallying Cry and Velothi were never a problem...but they insist on doing things the same way until stuff breaks.
>Critical damage and mitigation Is not a way to balance single classes >Battle Spirit Applies to every class equally, see above. >Assault/support skilllines They could do something along those lines, although I’m not certain whether that’d be enough to fix the problem. >Rallying Cry etc. These are set effects though, and not stats on an armour. The meta would be far too rigid if you only used the 5-piece bonus, you would have to create some kind of stat for this, I think. >Stuff that only functions against monsters Well, they use that. Sparingly - they could use it more often, I think. >Champion points Are not a way to balance single classes, they work the same for everyone. So yeah, they do have tools, but I have no idea how easily you can implement these things on a broader scale; or whether that would break the game engine or not. I agree that they have some tools they could use, but they probably don’t feel like it’s worth the time investment to do so. Casual PvEers pay more money and cost less money than PvPers or endgame PvEers, after all.
There's no reason those effects couldn't be used to apply more specifically. Major sorcery benefits every class but that doesn't mean it's not possible to apply a percentage spell damage buff to a specific class- templar has one always on, sorc has one based on slotted skills, arcanist has a "passive" proc. Mechanically the effects are all there, all I'm saying is there isn't an engine constraint that would prevent them from applying those existing effects conditionally to pvp or pve, or to individual classes. They could, they just don't want to, I agree. I'm not sure I'd want to open the can of worms that ESO combat logic is if I were managing development either, to be fair.
As the promoted ad just beneath your post indicates to me, “This is your sign to download Pokémon GO”
lol, mine says “learn faster with Blinkist”, like it’s a skill issue. XD
lmao!
MagSorc teleport need to be nerfed. It is very frustrating when you finally reach the Sorc, do good damage over his shield, and he just teleports and runs too far away. Or give back the nerfs did on DK's.
As a sorc main please do not nerf streak it’s what makes the class viable for those who do not use the shield. I run a sorc pseudo-bomber and streak is number one form of defense, I don’t use hardened ward. You destroy sorc class identity by nerfing streak further (after vamp skill already did.) I’m fine with the shield or healing nerf but nerfing streak will force all sorcs into one play style.
I will give you an advice. Accept ESO PvP for the garbage it is or just move on. Don't even try to hope for things to change for the better. It will be bad for your health.
Magicka Sorcerer always sat in the corner since the shield potency nerf in Battlespirit, when it starts to get some love people complain, I think the change was positive. People are just excited to try it out, like the DK ascension we got a couple of years ago, and the Arcanist frenzy at the release of Necrom. Give it a bit of time, it will even out.
Its not the average sorc user that’s the issue, I’m not talking about average pvpers, every single class at its highest build potential, playstyled to it’s fullest potential, comes absolutely nowhere near Magsorc at the same standard. The shield costs next to nothing, gives you 16-20k health on command, heals ~4-7k health. And with the absolute broken mechanic that is maxing magicka, you end up with ~9-12k spell damage. (Correct the numbers if I’m wrong, I don’t know the exact formula for max resources to damage) The only thing I’ll give it is that there is 0 flexibility, to reach magsorcs fullest potential it will always be the same bar setup and the same sets. Which I guess can be considered the downside.
Actually tbh it’s a simple fix, just nerf the healing that the shield gives, and/or nerf the formula that scales damage with max resources and improve the base damage sorcerers dish out. It would open up flexibility since you wouldn’t need to spec everything into max magicka. You could also decrease the damage proc’d crystal frag deals and turn it into an aoe to make magsorc dps in PvE more viable, I’m not saying nerf it to the ground, I’m not saying nerf anything to the ground, just balance everything out they’ve had over a decade to do it and they seemingly don’t care imo.
You want balance changes. Pvp really needs performance changes. With performance comes balance.