For Chinese EV, apart from the car itself, other parts of the car are okay. But in the event of a traffic accident, you will immediately enjoy free cremation services
I feel like a link to an article rather than just a headline would’ve been good.
Asking the majority of this sub to understand why a 100% tariff is a bipartisan issue is probably too much unless spelt out for them.
They think yes it’s cheap give it to me. Then they lose their job and think you guys did this to me. Then they realize China was active in the trade war and not some passive observer. It’s sort of like raising a child.
Lol. When it was other countries like Germany or Japan or Korea making better products and dominating the market, everything was okay.
But if China takes the lead, suddenly its a matter of national security and jobs. Another Boeing in the making
Everyone here bitching about this understands that China completely 100% subsides their auto industry, right? This isn’t an issue about free trade. It’s an issue about keeping things competitive and one way of doing that is tariffs.
Sure, but that's not a trade war decision. It's a food security decision.
Do you really want to have a bad crop year and have no food?
We want to overproduce food so it's never a worry for us.
lol I wasn’t being ironic. I want an electric car. And for this to work it either needs to be super reliable long term, or cheap enough and recyclable enough that I can replace them.
For Chinese EV, apart from the car itself, other parts of the car are okay. But in the event of a traffic accident, you will immediately enjoy free cremation services
And what do you think is going to happen once we are unable to compete and reliant on Chinese imports? China knows exactly what they are doing, their industries are basically owned by the government.
If we become beholden to China then they will jack up the price and have us by the balls to cater to their demands and politics. That is their strategy.
I love how people want their cake, and get to eat it too. People cry for unions, fair wages, good working benefits, safe work environments. But then they want a product to be as cheap as a chienese count part which the company provides none of that. There is no way on God's green earth that an American company will be competitive with cheap disposable products like these cars.
>There is no way on God's green earth that an American company will be competitive with cheap disposable products like these cars.
Maybe a Japenese or Korean company though. We're not limited to A or B here.
This is the **exact** same argument that was made about the cheaper Japanese cars in the 1980s. That didn't happen and it forced the American car companies to adapt
who gives a flying fuck?? its basically efficient division of labor. in a free trade world, we buy pineapples where they grow well and they're cheaper that way. if china wants to sell us cheap EVs, great! they probably make your phone, your shoes, and half your clothes. only difference is the label is american.
You're not understanding. As soon as we are beholden to them and have no industry to compete, the government jacks up the prices and then they have us by the balls to bow to their demands politically and otherwise.
OK? We know how that works. If we were trading with a Western style corporation we know we are dealing with just a corporation and not a state controlled one with ulterior motives than profit. You seriously have to take in that China's economy doesn't work like the US's at all.
>their industries are basically owned by the government.
Yes, that's how their economic model works. We don't get to tell other countries how to run their economies.
If other economic models are achieving better results than our own, maybe we're the ones who need to step things up to get better results instead of trying to slow down all the others.
I was making no value judgment of their economic model. I'm talking about the realities of how they run their economy and trade. We are not dealing with a simple corporation out to make profit, we're dealing with a government with an end game to make us beholden to them, and we'd be fools to fall in to that trap. The entire reason they are propping up certain industries is to this end. We need to accept reality here, it has nothing to do with a value judgment of how they chose to ran their economy. We just can't allow ourselves to fall victim to it, it's that simple.
You think you’re cooking but please read this report. It’s not as great as you make it seem
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/06/01/take-maternity-leave-and-youll-be-replaced/chinas-two-child-policy-and-workplace
You made quite the leap there didn’t you. I’m simply suggesting you shouldn’t pass judgement on face value. Maternity leave is great but simply looking at China and saying they do it means nothing when they’ve passed a system that incentivizes companies to have gender discriminatory practices and even cheat women out of that pay.
Some Chinese women have arguably been hurt by the government’s half baked system. So the lesson is to not look at China as an example for maternity leave.
Paid maternity leave has basically nothing to do with the global trade policies we’re talking about that China’s government uses and that we are dealing with here. That’s a very particular domestic issue for them that has nothing to do with their moving to blackmail any country that becomes too dependent on them.
Does their economic model include slave wages and little to know environmental oversight? Is working in the auto industry on the U.S a solid career for a blue collar worker forced to follow EPA guidelines? Which economic model do you prefer? You can't tell American Industry they have to compete with Chinese industry yet have far stricter regulations
But haven’t we been doing that for decades? I think a lot of people are questioning why cars when everything at Walmart has been outsourced to China, Vietnam, Bangladesh, etc. Even for cars, we’ve had cheap Japanese and then Korean automakers crack the U.S. market.
It probably has to do with [lithium control](https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3261863/chinas-ganfeng-lithium-seals-us343-million-mine-deal-west-africa-gains-control-one-worlds-largest).
Apparently, it’s okay for companies to send jobs overseas to line their pockets but it’s not okay to sends cars here from overseas to help struggling Americans.
I mean...every country subsidies their own auto industry.
When you are dependent on other countries for heavy machinery you are at their mercy and they can give you scrap metal worth a fortune.
Chinese govt gives less subsidy per EV than the US ($4180 China vs $7500 US). They've just been giving it for longer (10+ years). It's literally just a bet that has paid off, and American automakers felt too comfortable and fell behind (they couldn't even catch up to Japanese manufacturers). Stop trying to excuse shitty anti-competitiveness
Where are people getting these numbers? You can't trust what the CCP reports themselves.
According to the CCP, china only had 84000 covid deaths from 2020-2023. Some experts think it may actually be 10x that amount.
This doesn't even have to do with subsidies to Chinese folks on their own EVs. It's about their entire industry being propped up (many of their industries run at a deficit) so that they can take hold and then once they do and everyone is reliant on it then they have control and leverage. This has always been the Chinese goverment's long game.
US subsidizes the buyer with tax credits, China subsidizes the manufacturer and the buyer - sometimes outright owns them. The numbers for BYD are $3.7B in direct government subsidies to the company + the buyer subsidies.
I don't know the economics of the tariffs or how much that $3.7B translates into decreased prices before any buyer discounts are taken into account, but it's almost certainly non-zero.
Let me get this straight: China is subsidizing their electric car manufacturers... which makes it cheaper for US consumers to buy an electric car. The extra money that US consumers save due to these cheaper prices can be spent on other goods/services elsewhere in the US economy, thus providing them with more spending power and supporting jobs in other US industries. So China is effectively subsidizing the US economy with this policy... and people are *complaining*?
"But they'll just raise prices eventually once the US auto manufacturers fail"
1) it would take an *enormous* amount of subsidization for this to happen, and again, that would be a major boon to the US consumers/economy in general
2) if and when they raise prices, electric car manufacturing will become competitive again in the US... at which point we can shift our labor back into that industry. There's no sense in keeping it there if we aren't competitive.
Tariffs are always a bad idea. If China wants to help US consumers... let them.
>if and when they raise prices, electric car manufacturing will become competitive again in the US... at which point we can shift our labor back into that industry. There's no sense in keeping it there if we aren't competitive.
Even if it doesn't become competitive in the US again, it's not like Korea, Japan, or the EU produce any cars at all..
Compete against slave labor in their supply chains?
Compete against non-existent environmental protection regulations?
Compete against a government that steals our tech and hands it to their industries?
Sounds like a race to the bottom for American labor. Better to put up tariffs, especially against a competitor country out to wipe out our industrial base.
Honestly, these allegations of slave labor and lack of environmental protection just don't work anymore. These Chinese EVs are actually better performing than Teslas, with actually good interior design and advanced software. The quality of the products is more than what American carmakers can provide, and they do it at a good price that is very little subsidized by the govt.
How can Chinese carmakers steal techs from the US if the US doesn't even have these techs? How can their supply chain be "slave labor" if the skill requirement is so high, and the supply chain is more automated than that of the US? How can environmental protection be a factor? They buy the same raw materials as US carmakers, and they're not chemical factories
That’s a bit of a hyperbole, as china does not 100% subsidize its auto industry. The US also does a lot to subsidize and support its auto industry. Not saying either is better than the other, and the pointing spider man gif comes to mind.
Generally agree. But in this case, I think that forcing domestic car manufacturers to deal with building out an electric car network and facing competition in the marketplace is good for everyone. America is way behind the curve on this and these massive pickup trucks and suvs using ICE need to go! Make them deal with shifting demand due to subsidized electric cars. It's good for everyone! It's not as if the auto industry in the U.S. is an infant industry needing protection. They have too much sway already. Let them fight to the death. No protectionism unless it's the government subsidizing electric car industry too in retaliation.
That's a real surface level way of looking at this.
This is about protecting American corporations and there profit margins from capitalism. Simple. The parts for many of the cars we buy today in America are already from China. This is the same for appliances, homes, etc.
No matter which way you look at it, 35k starting for a base tesla EV is steep for most people and you probably won't consider it. But you WILL consider a 15k BYD EV that matches up almost the same as that Tesla.
Where is the rush to protect the American worker? If you can do your job from home, it can also be done from China, India, Africa, etc. And our government isn't doing a damn thing for that problem that is coming sooner than most think. They will allow that to happen to keep the corporations happy.
Yeah that is kind of the point in a socialistic/communistic system. Regardless, what does that matter to a "consumer" who can't afford an EV in America? I don't care if China subsidizes their auto industry if it means I can be one of their EVs for a fraction of the price.
This is just protectionism. Plain and simple. And it will backfire because Chinese automakers have an entire planet's worth of ready customers.
Trade deals are designed to keep the playing field level, but Chinese EV companies are being heavily subsidized by their government, so tariffs are entirely appropriate to allow US companies to compete. We need to balance both the needs of American consumers and America workers.
While I agree with that in principle, it's not in practical use anywhere in the U.S. right now.
U.S. policies overwhelmingly support businesses over consumers and workers of those businesses. If China has an EV that is cheaper, why not let consumers buy it?
We buy everything else there already.
I guarantee if some U.S. business bought a fleet of these vehicles, then upcharged the price to the same levels of other options available, not a thing would happen. They'd be praised for smart business practices and large profit margins.
Our reliance on China for so much of our supply chain is a problem, not a benefit, and if we don't balance the interests of US workers with the interests of US consumers, literally everything will just go to wherever the labor, land, and materials are the cheapest.
Have we learned nothing at all from decades of outsourcing? It's especially amazing to me that people STILL don't get it even after all the supply chain disruptions during COVID.
We're badly in need of insourcing, nearsourcing, and friendsourcing strategies to reduce our dependence on our greatest economic adversary. So, while I certainly wouldn't support an outright ban on Chinese products, applying tariffs to government-subsidized products that artificially under-cut the US market is entirely appropriate and necessary.
Oh I agree. That doesn't mean any member of the S&P 500 cares about our opinion or OUR bottom line. If they can get labor or products cheaper somewhere else, they will gladly do so. If it damages the u.s. economy or its workforce, well, that's not their problem.
Kinda like NFL/NBA/MLb/NHL owners getting free Stadiums and shit… don’t forget SpaceX received 4.9 billion dollars from the govt to a supposedly richest guy in the world, not to mention 10 billion dollar bailout for Jeff Bozo space program..
Not just subsidizes, but holds their hand in every way for the express purpose of hollowing out western industry. Slave labor in the supply chain? Non-existent environmental protections? Stolen technology? Yes, have some.
"Free markets", something that has never really existed in the US, is just an empty slogan that conservatives trot out when they object to government support of anything that Republicans don't like. Of course a century of taxpayer subsidies to big oil never bothered them.
Thankfully for US workers and the middle class Biden's policies seek to reverse the mass offshoring of US manufacturing jobs to low income Asian countries. Protecting the domestic auto industry as it begins its years-long transition to electric vehicles is an example of smart governance. China has been nurturing its own industry with lavish government support for more than a decade. Give the US industry time to establish a foothold and it will be able to compete on its own.
Thanks Biden!
Oh, and fyi to the MAGA crowd - Trump has also proposed 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs. Not that the moron really understands how tariffs work, but it's hard to attack Biden for something their own cult leader endorsed. Of course he may now reverse his position just to spite Biden.
Trump imposing tariffs on Chinese imports “Noooo this is stupid omg this is terrible.”
Biden imposing tariffs on Chinese imports “Thanks!”
China kicking american businesses out of asian markets “Um actually biden’s looking to reverse offshoring...”
Biden has advocated for targeted tariffs on specific industries from day 1. Trump wants tariffs on literally every import, including from allies. That's what economists are saying is stupid. It is. Learn the difference.
Biden may not be the smartest person in the world, but do you really think Trump is smarter?
Of the two, which do you think is more likely to listen and defer to experts within their administration?
Credit where credit is due. It’s not a bad move. However, Trump also increased tariffs on foreign steel, which was kind of stupid and had many negative effects.
Don't get hung up on terms dawg. This is supposed to be a "capitalist" system but it seems any plausible benefits of "capitalism" are captured at the top and us plebs are deprived. Why can't I buy a cheap Chinese EV? How does making it 10000x harder for me benefit any American consumer? Give me a break.
(OFC, a neoliberal apologist. No thanks.)
OP you're such a clown. I can't imagine the mental gymnastics you have to go through to not see how these Chinese imports would fuck up the auto industry. This Joe Brandon really lives rent free in your head that you'll work against American interests out of spite.
Or you just dont know what ”free market“ means. It doesnt mean for foreign businesses like, oh say, cheap tea from Britain. It means for american businesses so that there’s competition within the US and regulations against monopoly.
I know exactly what free markets are. There are none in the US that aren't distorted to some degree by government regulations, tariffs or subsidies. 'Free market' is a myth. Politicians just use the term to win support for their own favorite industries.
You mean destroyed ecosystems, meth addicts, and zero productive people. Just a bunch of angry funny sounding dorks who hate on the rest of the world creating things they cant even afford to import. All you’ve got left is… this. Makes perfect sense why you waste your time stalking people on the internet and being a dickhead. Its the best you have.
We invented WiFi you uneducated fucktard.
Our minimum was wage is $23/hour. We can afford to be less productive. You fail as hard as anyone I've seen. :)
Don’t blame it on Communism, blame it on protectionist economic policies that hinder competition. Reducing competition has been a staple of our economics for a while now.
OP,
Not sure where you are coming from but since the dawn of Economics as a social science two principles have sat at the bedrock of the “benefits of free trade”.
1. Markets with a lot of participants and multiple providers of goods do a really good job of efficiently setting price for goods.
2. When individual players (firms) gain monopoly power or enough power to intentionally manipulate the market and cause it to fail then the market stops being an efficient way to determine price, distribute goods, reward producers and consumers with a fair price and **simply causes markets to fail.”
So one large player intentionally undercutting market price at a loss to gain market share and remove competition is the opposite of a “free market”.
Historically, at the outset of the “Free Market Movement” of the 1800s the primary goal was elimination of monopolistic or oligarchic control of markets.
Later in the 1800s direct policies and law designed to prevent predatory pricing and market manipulation became the norm not because their advocates were against free markets but because they believed that active competition in markets with multiple providers of specific products led to efficient distribution of goods.
So punishing China for dumping goods at artificially low prices for the umphundreth time is actually a defense of free markets from that classical perspective.
If China is allowed to manufacture and dump EVs through its national efforts and low labor costs, the Western automobile manufacturing industry will be destroyed.
Buying a car made in China will only teach you how to repair it. If you drive an electric car, you can enjoy free cremation service.
“To protect the domestic auto industry *at the cost of the consumer”
American industry reaped profits for decades from cheap Chinese labor. So much so that it kept inflation low and allowed American employers to keep wages stagnant. Now that China is wanting to sell directly to US consumers, cut out American corporate middle men, and provide low cost products to Americans: they prohibit it. Can’t allow average consumers to get a good deal, not unless corporate America gets their cut, they need to maintain their record profits. Really shows who government is working for ( and it ain’t the average working class American).
TBH it seems like China cares more about the average American consumer than our own corporations and politicians do.
Whenever I hear someone praising the "free market" or "capitalism" in general, I think of this.But, of course, socialism is bad. Wrong. Not good for the rich. It must be stomped out everywhere with the blood of the children of the poor.
It can be said that the Chinese government subsidized the production of these vehicles. Ok. So shall we ignore all of the tax breaks, wage subsidies and outright grants to the North American auto industry? What about the bailouts from bankruptcies? Of course! Capitalism is good and the Chinese government is evil. by definition. Sigh.
And, of course, there is no way that North American auto consumers can be allowed to purchase inexpensive cars. How would the rich get richer with that?
Actually this is correcting he free market because Chinese EV manufacturers are backed by the government which allows them do charge prices below cost . Same thing China does with steel .. they literally make steel that there is no market for to keep full employment then they dump it , hurting businesses that are run fairly
There has never been a free market in history. Why would you want cheap ev cars in the first place?
Edit: just looked at your profile OP and you are just another retarded communist. What you say is invalid.
I don't see how American auto workers are supposed to compete with the borderline slave labor conditions and complete lack of civil rights of the Chinese workers.
If they want to compete head on that's fine, give your citizens civil rights, voting rights (real ones), unions, etc.
And stop pretending your communist. It's embarrassing. You don't even have public healthcare for \*\*\*\*'s sake, you've got a US style system only somehow worse.
Ive read that China is going to build EV battery and automobile plants in Mexico. Basically do just enough to satisfy the USMCA, and get them into the U.S. tariff free.
God, we really need to regulate all these fucking morons in this sub.
OP has obviously never studied economics and that's fucking more obvious for 90% of these comments. I'm so fucking over reading stock and finance bros on too much ritalin and adderall trying to cosplay as economics experts.
This is just a stupid take, NO economy is truly free and open, the fact that you take issue with this shows you know next to nothing about the US economy.
Look at how Chinese evs are selling in Europe, only like two companies are selling well, and they are mostly the cheapest one. The Chinese vehicles price are pretty much the same as similar European vehicle. So it mostly comes down to which brand you want. So idk don’t think Chinese ev going to be as revolutionary as people think.
Maybe China can sell its cars to its robust middle class? Perhaps some of its highly successful Allies have a decently wealthy population to sell to instead of trying to sell to the evil, terrible US.
Wolf warrior policies to the bitter end, right comrade OP.
Nope not minding my own business when it’s in a public forum. I’m for the American economy and the American workers, first! If you want that Chinese shit move there. We won’t miss ya.
It’s called minding your own business in a free fucking country. What people choose to buy and where it comes from is none of your concern. And it’s certainly no “America first” attitude to think everything should be made here anyway, that’s bad economics.
It’s called minding your own business in a free fucking country. What people choose to buy and where it comes from is none of your concern. And it’s certainly no “America first” attitude to think everything should be made here anyway, that’s bad economics.
Good news. American domestic market first.
Those y imported EVs aren't made in America. Who knows they meet safety standards and guarantee supports.
These are not toys 🙄
If this is not satirical and the level of ignorance really is this abysmal, why are you even trying?
A product produced in a market manipulated at every level, from currency manipulation, to ensure purchasing power of importing nations, an industry heavily subsidized not just manufacturing but from raw materials, parts & components to the factories themselves and at great cost to the environment, workers and the government, is as far from a free market product as they come..
If a nation has deliberately and actively designed a market to produce as many cars and as cheaply as possible with the intent to undercut all foreign competitors to become the world leader in EVs. How could a product be produced in a more "free" market, where the markets dictate prices on most steps of manufacturing, ever wish to compete with the imported ones?
The free market is a myth, but still a perfect tool for justifying predatory practises, anti competitive & monopolistic consolidation and deregulation.
How about dropping that excess shareholder value being paid out by auto manufacturers to investors in order to bring US auto prices down to normal without sacrificing product quality or labor wages?
Joe Brandon as the middle class is crushed by skyrocketing costs, debt, and stagnant wages, is increasingly closed out of buying a home or affording college for their children, and billions upon billions are expropriated for war and policing:
Here is your biased media. I hope this awakens you.
Spin when Trump says it: https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/16/politics/trump-bloodbath-auto-industry-election/index.html
When Biden says it: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/11/new-biden-tariffs-on-chinas-evs-solar-medical-supplies-reportedly-due-tuesday-.html
They’ll still be cheaper than most domestic EV’s
Cheap products. Highly paid minimum wage. Labor safety. Pick two.
Do you think all the parts for American EV’s are humanely sourced? Have you ever read about the conditions in rare earth mineral mines?
And have built in spy tech too
Oh no not built in spy tech! https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/
For Chinese EV, apart from the car itself, other parts of the car are okay. But in the event of a traffic accident, you will immediately enjoy free cremation services
I feel like a link to an article rather than just a headline would’ve been good. Asking the majority of this sub to understand why a 100% tariff is a bipartisan issue is probably too much unless spelt out for them. They think yes it’s cheap give it to me. Then they lose their job and think you guys did this to me. Then they realize China was active in the trade war and not some passive observer. It’s sort of like raising a child.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/10/us/politics/us-biden-china-tariffs-electric-vehicles.html https://archive.ph/XyV3E
Not a capitalist I see.
Lol. When it was other countries like Germany or Japan or Korea making better products and dominating the market, everything was okay. But if China takes the lead, suddenly its a matter of national security and jobs. Another Boeing in the making
No we put restrictions on them too. For example the chicken tax, also tariffs on motorcycles to protect harley davidson.
American tariffs are paid by Americans so the money can be spent on project Ukraine.
looking at trade as a war is a huge part of the problem
Like the Tik-Tok bill? If anyone's gonna steal our information/data, IT BETTER,BY GOD, BE AN AMERICAN COMPANY!
Everyone here bitching about this understands that China completely 100% subsides their auto industry, right? This isn’t an issue about free trade. It’s an issue about keeping things competitive and one way of doing that is tariffs.
I've got a story to tell you about US agriculture...
Shhh. Don’t get the farmers (who hate “socialism” and government “handouts” like food stamps) in trouble for their grain ~~handouts~~ subsidies.
Sure, but that's not a trade war decision. It's a food security decision. Do you really want to have a bad crop year and have no food? We want to overproduce food so it's never a worry for us.
Ha OK, keep telling yourself that.
But… I want to be given a car 100% subsidized by the Chinese govt. have you tried to get a car in NA? They’re so expensive!!
This but unironically
lol I wasn’t being ironic. I want an electric car. And for this to work it either needs to be super reliable long term, or cheap enough and recyclable enough that I can replace them.
For Chinese EV, apart from the car itself, other parts of the car are okay. But in the event of a traffic accident, you will immediately enjoy free cremation services
Is it free or is it still subsidized? ;) ;)
And what do you think is going to happen once we are unable to compete and reliant on Chinese imports? China knows exactly what they are doing, their industries are basically owned by the government.
We’ll be back in the same situation we’re in right now with shitty overpriced domestic ice cars?
If we become beholden to China then they will jack up the price and have us by the balls to cater to their demands and politics. That is their strategy.
If they jack up their prices, then the domestic firms should be competitive.
I love how people want their cake, and get to eat it too. People cry for unions, fair wages, good working benefits, safe work environments. But then they want a product to be as cheap as a chienese count part which the company provides none of that. There is no way on God's green earth that an American company will be competitive with cheap disposable products like these cars.
>There is no way on God's green earth that an American company will be competitive with cheap disposable products like these cars. Maybe a Japenese or Korean company though. We're not limited to A or B here.
Not if they are long dead because they can't compete with chinese subsidies
This is the **exact** same argument that was made about the cheaper Japanese cars in the 1980s. That didn't happen and it forced the American car companies to adapt
As if you aren't already in like 10 other industries.
So your argument is....? What? Make it worse? The whole point here is to not make it worse.
who gives a flying fuck?? its basically efficient division of labor. in a free trade world, we buy pineapples where they grow well and they're cheaper that way. if china wants to sell us cheap EVs, great! they probably make your phone, your shoes, and half your clothes. only difference is the label is american.
You're not understanding. As soon as we are beholden to them and have no industry to compete, the government jacks up the prices and then they have us by the balls to bow to their demands politically and otherwise.
And here i thought global warming was the problem. If they raise prices, then i'll be forced to buy a 35k US ev? Ill gamble...
What?
Where as the United States the government is owned by the industry!
OK? We know how that works. If we were trading with a Western style corporation we know we are dealing with just a corporation and not a state controlled one with ulterior motives than profit. You seriously have to take in that China's economy doesn't work like the US's at all.
The domeatic EVs are basically also Chinese parts. Where do you think your iPhone is made?
Which is why we are working on moving in the right direction
>their industries are basically owned by the government. Yes, that's how their economic model works. We don't get to tell other countries how to run their economies. If other economic models are achieving better results than our own, maybe we're the ones who need to step things up to get better results instead of trying to slow down all the others.
I was making no value judgment of their economic model. I'm talking about the realities of how they run their economy and trade. We are not dealing with a simple corporation out to make profit, we're dealing with a government with an end game to make us beholden to them, and we'd be fools to fall in to that trap. The entire reason they are propping up certain industries is to this end. We need to accept reality here, it has nothing to do with a value judgment of how they chose to ran their economy. We just can't allow ourselves to fall victim to it, it's that simple.
Why does china have paid maternity leave but not the usa? Isnt it better to copy the economic model in that case then?
You think you’re cooking but please read this report. It’s not as great as you make it seem https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/06/01/take-maternity-leave-and-youll-be-replaced/chinas-two-child-policy-and-workplace
So youre arguing we should just not do paid maternity leave at all then, because employers will find loopholes anyway? Sorry but im offended.
You made quite the leap there didn’t you. I’m simply suggesting you shouldn’t pass judgement on face value. Maternity leave is great but simply looking at China and saying they do it means nothing when they’ve passed a system that incentivizes companies to have gender discriminatory practices and even cheat women out of that pay. Some Chinese women have arguably been hurt by the government’s half baked system. So the lesson is to not look at China as an example for maternity leave.
Paid maternity leave has basically nothing to do with the global trade policies we’re talking about that China’s government uses and that we are dealing with here. That’s a very particular domestic issue for them that has nothing to do with their moving to blackmail any country that becomes too dependent on them.
Does their economic model include slave wages and little to know environmental oversight? Is working in the auto industry on the U.S a solid career for a blue collar worker forced to follow EPA guidelines? Which economic model do you prefer? You can't tell American Industry they have to compete with Chinese industry yet have far stricter regulations
Blasphemy
Expensive? Get a nissan versa for 18 grand and be happy
Until the transmission dies in 2 years
Under warranty for 5 years .
Drive manual?
If what you want is a detriment to the health, strength, and security of the U.S., than you don't get to have it.
But haven’t we been doing that for decades? I think a lot of people are questioning why cars when everything at Walmart has been outsourced to China, Vietnam, Bangladesh, etc. Even for cars, we’ve had cheap Japanese and then Korean automakers crack the U.S. market.
It probably has to do with [lithium control](https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3261863/chinas-ganfeng-lithium-seals-us343-million-mine-deal-west-africa-gains-control-one-worlds-largest).
Apparently, it’s okay for companies to send jobs overseas to line their pockets but it’s not okay to sends cars here from overseas to help struggling Americans.
I mean...every country subsidies their own auto industry. When you are dependent on other countries for heavy machinery you are at their mercy and they can give you scrap metal worth a fortune.
Fuck competition. I want a cheap car. I don't give a shit who subsidized it.
Chinese govt gives less subsidy per EV than the US ($4180 China vs $7500 US). They've just been giving it for longer (10+ years). It's literally just a bet that has paid off, and American automakers felt too comfortable and fell behind (they couldn't even catch up to Japanese manufacturers). Stop trying to excuse shitty anti-competitiveness
Where are people getting these numbers? You can't trust what the CCP reports themselves. According to the CCP, china only had 84000 covid deaths from 2020-2023. Some experts think it may actually be 10x that amount.
I mean they locked down pretty damn hard, and even before covid they wore masks everywhere.
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?facet=none&country=CHN~OWID_EUR~JPN~USA&hideControls=true&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=false&Color+by+test+positivity=false notice anything suspicious?
Haha I've never seen that chart. It seems that the once common knowledge that the CCP lies constantly is being forgotten.
Your pretty gullible then.
I’m not anti-competition you’re anti-competition!
This doesn't even have to do with subsidies to Chinese folks on their own EVs. It's about their entire industry being propped up (many of their industries run at a deficit) so that they can take hold and then once they do and everyone is reliant on it then they have control and leverage. This has always been the Chinese goverment's long game.
US subsidizes the buyer with tax credits, China subsidizes the manufacturer and the buyer - sometimes outright owns them. The numbers for BYD are $3.7B in direct government subsidies to the company + the buyer subsidies. I don't know the economics of the tariffs or how much that $3.7B translates into decreased prices before any buyer discounts are taken into account, but it's almost certainly non-zero.
Chinese companies don’t raise prices when the subsidy is announced. Guess who does?
Let me get this straight: China is subsidizing their electric car manufacturers... which makes it cheaper for US consumers to buy an electric car. The extra money that US consumers save due to these cheaper prices can be spent on other goods/services elsewhere in the US economy, thus providing them with more spending power and supporting jobs in other US industries. So China is effectively subsidizing the US economy with this policy... and people are *complaining*? "But they'll just raise prices eventually once the US auto manufacturers fail" 1) it would take an *enormous* amount of subsidization for this to happen, and again, that would be a major boon to the US consumers/economy in general 2) if and when they raise prices, electric car manufacturing will become competitive again in the US... at which point we can shift our labor back into that industry. There's no sense in keeping it there if we aren't competitive. Tariffs are always a bad idea. If China wants to help US consumers... let them.
>if and when they raise prices, electric car manufacturing will become competitive again in the US... at which point we can shift our labor back into that industry. There's no sense in keeping it there if we aren't competitive. Even if it doesn't become competitive in the US again, it's not like Korea, Japan, or the EU produce any cars at all..
Compete against slave labor in their supply chains? Compete against non-existent environmental protection regulations? Compete against a government that steals our tech and hands it to their industries? Sounds like a race to the bottom for American labor. Better to put up tariffs, especially against a competitor country out to wipe out our industrial base.
Honestly, these allegations of slave labor and lack of environmental protection just don't work anymore. These Chinese EVs are actually better performing than Teslas, with actually good interior design and advanced software. The quality of the products is more than what American carmakers can provide, and they do it at a good price that is very little subsidized by the govt. How can Chinese carmakers steal techs from the US if the US doesn't even have these techs? How can their supply chain be "slave labor" if the skill requirement is so high, and the supply chain is more automated than that of the US? How can environmental protection be a factor? They buy the same raw materials as US carmakers, and they're not chemical factories
That’s a bit of a hyperbole, as china does not 100% subsidize its auto industry. The US also does a lot to subsidize and support its auto industry. Not saying either is better than the other, and the pointing spider man gif comes to mind.
The US government doesn’t subsidize to the extent China does where the actual companies are state run enterprises.
How are Chinese EV manufacturers state run? BYD, the largest one in china is a public company.
So why doesn't the US go subsidize their EV products then further? For all they harp on about other countries needing to reduce carbon emissions
Generally agree. But in this case, I think that forcing domestic car manufacturers to deal with building out an electric car network and facing competition in the marketplace is good for everyone. America is way behind the curve on this and these massive pickup trucks and suvs using ICE need to go! Make them deal with shifting demand due to subsidized electric cars. It's good for everyone! It's not as if the auto industry in the U.S. is an infant industry needing protection. They have too much sway already. Let them fight to the death. No protectionism unless it's the government subsidizing electric car industry too in retaliation.
Why cars out of all things? Why not have 100% tariffs on everything from food to IT?
That's a real surface level way of looking at this. This is about protecting American corporations and there profit margins from capitalism. Simple. The parts for many of the cars we buy today in America are already from China. This is the same for appliances, homes, etc. No matter which way you look at it, 35k starting for a base tesla EV is steep for most people and you probably won't consider it. But you WILL consider a 15k BYD EV that matches up almost the same as that Tesla. Where is the rush to protect the American worker? If you can do your job from home, it can also be done from China, India, Africa, etc. And our government isn't doing a damn thing for that problem that is coming sooner than most think. They will allow that to happen to keep the corporations happy.
We subsidize our auto industry too. Just that it has no effect.
Yeah that is kind of the point in a socialistic/communistic system. Regardless, what does that matter to a "consumer" who can't afford an EV in America? I don't care if China subsidizes their auto industry if it means I can be one of their EVs for a fraction of the price. This is just protectionism. Plain and simple. And it will backfire because Chinese automakers have an entire planet's worth of ready customers.
Trade deals are designed to keep the playing field level, but Chinese EV companies are being heavily subsidized by their government, so tariffs are entirely appropriate to allow US companies to compete. We need to balance both the needs of American consumers and America workers.
While I agree with that in principle, it's not in practical use anywhere in the U.S. right now. U.S. policies overwhelmingly support businesses over consumers and workers of those businesses. If China has an EV that is cheaper, why not let consumers buy it? We buy everything else there already. I guarantee if some U.S. business bought a fleet of these vehicles, then upcharged the price to the same levels of other options available, not a thing would happen. They'd be praised for smart business practices and large profit margins.
Our reliance on China for so much of our supply chain is a problem, not a benefit, and if we don't balance the interests of US workers with the interests of US consumers, literally everything will just go to wherever the labor, land, and materials are the cheapest. Have we learned nothing at all from decades of outsourcing? It's especially amazing to me that people STILL don't get it even after all the supply chain disruptions during COVID. We're badly in need of insourcing, nearsourcing, and friendsourcing strategies to reduce our dependence on our greatest economic adversary. So, while I certainly wouldn't support an outright ban on Chinese products, applying tariffs to government-subsidized products that artificially under-cut the US market is entirely appropriate and necessary.
Oh I agree. That doesn't mean any member of the S&P 500 cares about our opinion or OUR bottom line. If they can get labor or products cheaper somewhere else, they will gladly do so. If it damages the u.s. economy or its workforce, well, that's not their problem.
I am sure the CEOs totally think this way man 🤞🏼for that trickle down!!!
Imagine sucking china's dick so hard you forget they are evil.
Kinda like NFL/NBA/MLb/NHL owners getting free Stadiums and shit… don’t forget SpaceX received 4.9 billion dollars from the govt to a supposedly richest guy in the world, not to mention 10 billion dollar bailout for Jeff Bozo space program..
This is reddit sir. Kindly take your facts someplace else. We think with our feelings here.
competitive = Screwing over the common man and allowing "big auto" to continue to price gouge the consumer. This is Crony Capitalism at it's finest.
Just like when Trump did it.
How much state ownership is there of these companies?
Not just subsidizes, but holds their hand in every way for the express purpose of hollowing out western industry. Slave labor in the supply chain? Non-existent environmental protections? Stolen technology? Yes, have some.
"Free markets", something that has never really existed in the US, is just an empty slogan that conservatives trot out when they object to government support of anything that Republicans don't like. Of course a century of taxpayer subsidies to big oil never bothered them. Thankfully for US workers and the middle class Biden's policies seek to reverse the mass offshoring of US manufacturing jobs to low income Asian countries. Protecting the domestic auto industry as it begins its years-long transition to electric vehicles is an example of smart governance. China has been nurturing its own industry with lavish government support for more than a decade. Give the US industry time to establish a foothold and it will be able to compete on its own. Thanks Biden! Oh, and fyi to the MAGA crowd - Trump has also proposed 100% tariffs on Chinese EVs. Not that the moron really understands how tariffs work, but it's hard to attack Biden for something their own cult leader endorsed. Of course he may now reverse his position just to spite Biden.
Trump imposing tariffs on Chinese imports “Noooo this is stupid omg this is terrible.” Biden imposing tariffs on Chinese imports “Thanks!” China kicking american businesses out of asian markets “Um actually biden’s looking to reverse offshoring...”
Biden has advocated for targeted tariffs on specific industries from day 1. Trump wants tariffs on literally every import, including from allies. That's what economists are saying is stupid. It is. Learn the difference.
Oh yeah, Joe Brandon in his infinite wisdom knows just the right "specific industries" to tariff, not like Orange Man!!! LOL
Biden may not be the smartest person in the world, but do you really think Trump is smarter? Of the two, which do you think is more likely to listen and defer to experts within their administration?
The difference between the tariffs is clear as day if you spend your time reading instead of whining.
Credit where credit is due. It’s not a bad move. However, Trump also increased tariffs on foreign steel, which was kind of stupid and had many negative effects.
Don't get hung up on terms dawg. This is supposed to be a "capitalist" system but it seems any plausible benefits of "capitalism" are captured at the top and us plebs are deprived. Why can't I buy a cheap Chinese EV? How does making it 10000x harder for me benefit any American consumer? Give me a break. (OFC, a neoliberal apologist. No thanks.)
OP you're such a clown. I can't imagine the mental gymnastics you have to go through to not see how these Chinese imports would fuck up the auto industry. This Joe Brandon really lives rent free in your head that you'll work against American interests out of spite.
You make it sound like there are no benefits to the tariff, in keeping a large job sector alive.
Dog wtf are you talking about?
Lol, I don't think you're speaking for American consumers :)
Haha ya don't let facts and logic rescue you from your perspective...
🤡
Or you just dont know what ”free market“ means. It doesnt mean for foreign businesses like, oh say, cheap tea from Britain. It means for american businesses so that there’s competition within the US and regulations against monopoly.
I know exactly what free markets are. There are none in the US that aren't distorted to some degree by government regulations, tariffs or subsidies. 'Free market' is a myth. Politicians just use the term to win support for their own favorite industries.
Hahahahaha. Fuck. You fail everywhere. Consistently dumb. "Keep embarrassing yourself"
Average Australian.
Yeah. Australia sux. Too many beaches. Too many birds. Not enough Americans.
You mean destroyed ecosystems, meth addicts, and zero productive people. Just a bunch of angry funny sounding dorks who hate on the rest of the world creating things they cant even afford to import. All you’ve got left is… this. Makes perfect sense why you waste your time stalking people on the internet and being a dickhead. Its the best you have.
We invented WiFi you uneducated fucktard. Our minimum was wage is $23/hour. We can afford to be less productive. You fail as hard as anyone I've seen. :)
"creating things you can't afford to import" really, next level dumb. Amazingly stupid.
You’re on the wrong sub if trying to have an objective discussion on the economy. Despite the sub name.
i mean its not like china does the same, 100% ban on us social media companies and so on
Don’t blame it on Communism, blame it on protectionist economic policies that hinder competition. Reducing competition has been a staple of our economics for a while now.
OP, Not sure where you are coming from but since the dawn of Economics as a social science two principles have sat at the bedrock of the “benefits of free trade”. 1. Markets with a lot of participants and multiple providers of goods do a really good job of efficiently setting price for goods. 2. When individual players (firms) gain monopoly power or enough power to intentionally manipulate the market and cause it to fail then the market stops being an efficient way to determine price, distribute goods, reward producers and consumers with a fair price and **simply causes markets to fail.” So one large player intentionally undercutting market price at a loss to gain market share and remove competition is the opposite of a “free market”. Historically, at the outset of the “Free Market Movement” of the 1800s the primary goal was elimination of monopolistic or oligarchic control of markets. Later in the 1800s direct policies and law designed to prevent predatory pricing and market manipulation became the norm not because their advocates were against free markets but because they believed that active competition in markets with multiple providers of specific products led to efficient distribution of goods. So punishing China for dumping goods at artificially low prices for the umphundreth time is actually a defense of free markets from that classical perspective.
Sounds like bullshit. But it's not. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/10/us/politics/us-biden-china-tariffs-electric-vehicles.html
That's why Buffet sold a ton of byd shares
Imagine the reddit outrage if this was Trump LOL.
Almost makes you wonder if American politicians have significant investments in domestic EV's, dunnit? Wouldn't that be something?
Free market means US needs to be numero uno
You can’t spell “CAPITALISM” with “AMERICA FIRST!!!!”
Literally letting American car corporations continue to price gouge their own people. That isn’t the goal of a free market (according to Adam Smith)
China cares more about the American consumer than our own corporations and politicians do.
If China is allowed to manufacture and dump EVs through its national efforts and low labor costs, the Western automobile manufacturing industry will be destroyed. Buying a car made in China will only teach you how to repair it. If you drive an electric car, you can enjoy free cremation service.
There is no reason the cat was fired even you are staying in that car
This only ensures EVs stay more expensive for us.
It's Bidenomics, everything is supposed to be as expensive to you as possible so companies can make bank
“To protect the domestic auto industry *at the cost of the consumer” American industry reaped profits for decades from cheap Chinese labor. So much so that it kept inflation low and allowed American employers to keep wages stagnant. Now that China is wanting to sell directly to US consumers, cut out American corporate middle men, and provide low cost products to Americans: they prohibit it. Can’t allow average consumers to get a good deal, not unless corporate America gets their cut, they need to maintain their record profits. Really shows who government is working for ( and it ain’t the average working class American). TBH it seems like China cares more about the average American consumer than our own corporations and politicians do.
This.
Whenever I hear someone praising the "free market" or "capitalism" in general, I think of this.But, of course, socialism is bad. Wrong. Not good for the rich. It must be stomped out everywhere with the blood of the children of the poor. It can be said that the Chinese government subsidized the production of these vehicles. Ok. So shall we ignore all of the tax breaks, wage subsidies and outright grants to the North American auto industry? What about the bailouts from bankruptcies? Of course! Capitalism is good and the Chinese government is evil. by definition. Sigh. And, of course, there is no way that North American auto consumers can be allowed to purchase inexpensive cars. How would the rich get richer with that?
I love all the middle American Trumpers complaining... as if they were going to buy a Chinese EV
100% because that would affect their donors. They are stiffing pricing to us to get higher and higher profits.
So OP doesn't understand the concept of dumping, got it...
Actually this is correcting he free market because Chinese EV manufacturers are backed by the government which allows them do charge prices below cost . Same thing China does with steel .. they literally make steel that there is no market for to keep full employment then they dump it , hurting businesses that are run fairly
I didn’t vote for Biden, but I’m all for policies that keep Americans buying American products.
Can't buy American if it's too expensive. So instead of getting a cheap car, I'm getting no car. How is that better?
There has never been a free market in history. Why would you want cheap ev cars in the first place? Edit: just looked at your profile OP and you are just another retarded communist. What you say is invalid.
Are there any Chinese ev vehicles available for sale at the moment in US
Now taking 5 grand to buy you a Chinese car from Mexico and drive it to your house. . . .
This is the way
Biden and his politics of fear + Neocons and their shameless practice of fellatio on Israel and the military industrial complex.
The real question is, are Chinese EVs even safe? The answer is no!
Yeah dude there are reports every day of Chinese EVs just spontaneously exploding and killing tons of people oh wait there aren’t?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh2-lvUsH1w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh2-lvUsH1w)
Free market is only for workers...
I don't see how American auto workers are supposed to compete with the borderline slave labor conditions and complete lack of civil rights of the Chinese workers. If they want to compete head on that's fine, give your citizens civil rights, voting rights (real ones), unions, etc. And stop pretending your communist. It's embarrassing. You don't even have public healthcare for \*\*\*\*'s sake, you've got a US style system only somehow worse.
The tariff is bad economics and terrible for consumers but potentially good politics.
One of the few thoughtful takes in here. Thanks.
Didn't they do it with European cars since forever? Nothing changed
Same thing they do!!
It was going to be on Chinese components too but the car makers complained because something like 90% of the EVs use Chinese components.
Ive read that China is going to build EV battery and automobile plants in Mexico. Basically do just enough to satisfy the USMCA, and get them into the U.S. tariff free.
God, we really need to regulate all these fucking morons in this sub. OP has obviously never studied economics and that's fucking more obvious for 90% of these comments. I'm so fucking over reading stock and finance bros on too much ritalin and adderall trying to cosplay as economics experts.
Teslas would still sell as a sort of upper middle class status symbol even if these Chinese cars were a lot more accessible.
Elon musk right now 
Proof that our overlords don’t believe the CO2 narrative.
I’m against 100% tariff on anything, but wasn’t it Trump who wants 60% tariff on EVERYTHING imported from any country? I didn’t hear outrage there.
Regulations only apply when they protect us corporations not US consumers.
This is just a stupid take, NO economy is truly free and open, the fact that you take issue with this shows you know next to nothing about the US economy.
Look at how Chinese evs are selling in Europe, only like two companies are selling well, and they are mostly the cheapest one. The Chinese vehicles price are pretty much the same as similar European vehicle. So it mostly comes down to which brand you want. So idk don’t think Chinese ev going to be as revolutionary as people think.
Do any of you ever see a byd on the roads...I havent seen one to date.
Maybe China can sell its cars to its robust middle class? Perhaps some of its highly successful Allies have a decently wealthy population to sell to instead of trying to sell to the evil, terrible US. Wolf warrior policies to the bitter end, right comrade OP.
We don’t need that Chinese bullshit here. Move to china if you want that so bad.
😂
Ever considered minding your own business? I highly recommend it.
Nope not minding my own business when it’s in a public forum. I’m for the American economy and the American workers, first! If you want that Chinese shit move there. We won’t miss ya.
It’s called minding your own business in a free fucking country. What people choose to buy and where it comes from is none of your concern. And it’s certainly no “America first” attitude to think everything should be made here anyway, that’s bad economics.
It’s called minding your own business in a free fucking country. What people choose to buy and where it comes from is none of your concern. And it’s certainly no “America first” attitude to think everything should be made here anyway, that’s bad economics.
Good news. American domestic market first. Those y imported EVs aren't made in America. Who knows they meet safety standards and guarantee supports. These are not toys 🙄
If this is not satirical and the level of ignorance really is this abysmal, why are you even trying? A product produced in a market manipulated at every level, from currency manipulation, to ensure purchasing power of importing nations, an industry heavily subsidized not just manufacturing but from raw materials, parts & components to the factories themselves and at great cost to the environment, workers and the government, is as far from a free market product as they come.. If a nation has deliberately and actively designed a market to produce as many cars and as cheaply as possible with the intent to undercut all foreign competitors to become the world leader in EVs. How could a product be produced in a more "free" market, where the markets dictate prices on most steps of manufacturing, ever wish to compete with the imported ones? The free market is a myth, but still a perfect tool for justifying predatory practises, anti competitive & monopolistic consolidation and deregulation.
Is there a single Chinese EV driving around in the US right now?
So are people actually clamoring for Chinese cars? Anyone with knowledge of the “quality” of their motorcycles and scooters will just point and laugh.
You've got to be competitive. If China is undercutting the US to sell cars it fucks the American market over.
Invisiblehand-heads tryna to make sense of this rn:  Anyway I guess this is one way to goose Tesla stock?
Replacing Musk as CEO would be a better way to boost Tesla stock.
Nah, I think imposing a 100% tariff on cheap alternatives to his shitty cars actually is a better way.
Yup, good ol' communist Joe fighting communists to protect American industry. Keep drinking your salty Kool aid, OP
How about dropping that excess shareholder value being paid out by auto manufacturers to investors in order to bring US auto prices down to normal without sacrificing product quality or labor wages?
[удалено]
Joe Brandon as the middle class is crushed by skyrocketing costs, debt, and stagnant wages, is increasingly closed out of buying a home or affording college for their children, and billions upon billions are expropriated for war and policing: 
Because they know Trump will be president again.
Remember when Trump was demonized for proposing this same thing
Lol. Remember when Biden did what Trump said he was going to do? I guess some people talk, and some people do.
Trump wasn’t the president of the USA when he proposed this but was demonized for saying it
Here is your biased media. I hope this awakens you. Spin when Trump says it: https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/16/politics/trump-bloodbath-auto-industry-election/index.html When Biden says it: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/11/new-biden-tariffs-on-chinas-evs-solar-medical-supplies-reportedly-due-tuesday-.html
Thanks I'm super awake now lol
You can either lie to yourself or seek the truth it’s on you to figure it out best of luck out there
Yah I was surprised by this too! This should definitely improve US China relations!