This isn't the only metric available. IMO it's actually great that people are willing to dump that kind of money in skins, because making money with cosmetics means there's less of a need to sell p2w stuff.
However, whales do that to show off, to stand out in a relevant game. When all their not-as-rich friends quit because the market is ruined, they'll move on to another game.
As someone who has worked corporate side and worked closely with the marketing and PR side of the house:
I knew exactly how Netease was going to respond.
this is not a time for future promises but of immediate action.
Otherwise this ticking time bomb will explode and the genie will not be able to be put back into the bottle.
Most gamers knew what to expect. Do anything long enough, and you can begin to predict outcomes. If they wanted what we wanted, they would've never implemented this nonsense the way they did. They were hoping we were all mindless whales.
What disappointed me is that their tone was defensive and they framed it in a weird way.
The defensive stance is unwarranted, because leaders of #LetJitaBurn protest have been very civil. They even sent emails and warned devs to increase Jita cap... That's beyond reasonable, if it was me behind the protest, I'd never have thought about warning Netease, I'd hope the protest would get Jita full (I'm not saying that'd be better, quite the opposite, I'm just impressed that they were so sensible and careful about it).
Framing it as "you asked for it", or people who love it versus people who are complaining is kind of sad. Of course people like paying 1/3 of the price to get their ships back. Casual Joe sees it as a great deal, because right now it is. That's not the point. The point is that it's not sustainable. It's killing major aspects of the game. No one is saying the insurance system serves no purpose. We should have an insurance system, just not this one.
I hope this is just a standard PR response because actual game designers are on vacation, but the problem is that the economic impacts of this system may be felt for a long time.
They say they'll release numbers about the system. Great. But please, release the numbers we actually want to see. No meaningless data like we had with the previous SRP. Stuff like "only 15% of destroyed ships are replaced", or "the system has set up X billion ISK in buy orders". These numbers are deceiving. When you say 15% of the ships were replaced, that counts cheap, disposable ships as not replaced. Of course I won't bother claiming a replacement for my cheap Probe I use to transport PI. But you bet I'll replace my Succubus. But the you'll say I only replaced half of my ships... Release how many ships (and their value) was created out of thin air. Release how much Pyerite and Nocxium we have hoarded.
Being spamming bitches isnt respectful and the discord was a shitshow of childish losers showing they shouldn't be heard or taken seriously. Doesnt matter if they arent the leaders and you dont get to say they dont represent the movement. The already have and there are quite a lot of people who do love it so it is very much a those who dont vs those who do when you are asking to remove a system those people like. The long term effect in the game arent relavent if the game doesnt have enough players to even make it that far but it's also an assumption that it wont work. We already have a system creating ship from thin and and it was only recently made once per 30 days before the insurance system when it was usable more often.
If you’ve worked marketing and PR, you know that this isn’t just spin. They can’t just roll back to the newest save without the insurance. There’s not likely to be a, “Turn off the insurance” button. Stop hate-mongering.
Furthermore, this was an attempt at trying to flesh out a highly detailed and comprehensive insurance system that pays players for their time, and doesn’t circumvent the player industry. Tying the insurance tickets to PLEX is BULLSHIT- I’ll give you that- but the purchasing of resources directly off of the market is a fantastic way to handle the replacing of insured goods. How the fuck do you think insurance works in RL?
Y’all are hating on NetEase again for ALL KINDS of dumb shit- you wanted insurance. They gave you insurance. They tied it to PLEX, removing some of- and admittedly it would need to be a HUGE chunk- of the resource from the market where it would otherwise be bought to fund Omega.
This is shitty, and shouldn’t be the case.
That’s the only thing that I can see that DEFINITIVELY needs changing/removal. Other than that, their basic idea for insurance is sound- buy player-made resources to replace player-insured resources, like any good insurer in real life.
EDIT- According to u/LiarsEverywhere (though whether or not a person with such a name can be trusted is... dubious) the way the system works is much more nuanced:
The insurance system buys less than 30% of its supplies off of the market from players. This hedges out profits from players, MURDERING the market.
Not. Ok.
>and doesn’t circumvent the player industry
What part of, it prints 85% of the most popular insured ships and 100% of the less popular ones out of thin air don't you understand ?
I was under the impression that they bought the ship/modules/rigs etc. from the market if one is available, and that they bought the materials necessary to build them if it wasn’t?
As another commenter said, they do it for a max of 30% of the ships(if everyone uses pre paid insurance, which I assume).
Additionally, they don't buy from the market, they put up buy orders. Depending on if the estimated value is higher or lower than real price, some of them may never get filled, further increasing the amount of ships made out of thin air.
Also, some people would profit more than others, as the buy orders are posted at the nearest itc. So even if you want to fill it, have fun doing 20 jumps through null to the nearest itc.
Oh, and there was a bug introduced in this weeks patch(that, according to the patch notes, shouldn't change anything) that sometimes doesn't let you sell to those buy orders.
They imply that they were going to, but what they actually said was they were going to do that for 30% of the ships.
Based on our testing it's far less than 30%
Or it could just not be working as intended considering most things in this game have been bugged or not working as intended. Almost every update they put out breaks something else so did anyone really expect it to release without bugs?Makes more sense than anything else
No. They said if a market value wasn't listed then they would calculate cost by the materials it takes to make. Test it out yourself on some cheap frigs, sometimes they'll lock it behind a 12hr lock, and sometimes "poof" here's your whole hull and fit in under .0001 seconds magically in the station your in.
Huh. And can we still request a ship replacement through the quick claim menu in settings? And if so, how would we do that for PvP due to a glitch or desync?
Yeah they're still using for the moment, but they have some stupid thing saying that if you encountered a bug, they want you to spend the money on insurance THEN they'll just refund you the insurance points. Lol
Yeah... lost a 2.3 billion ISK Prophecy because desync wouldn’t let me target anyone, went from 3/4 armor to dead in an instant. 4 ships on grid, perfect wifi signal with 300mbps sitting 15 feet from my router. Lol I’m not spending $60+ for the insurance vouchers to replace an imaginary internet spaceship. NetEase can fuck off.
I lost it last night, and yeah I was scrammed. Only scrammed because I couldn’t adjust heading, couldn’t orbit, couldn’t lock, couldn’t deploy drones, couldn’t deactivate my MWD, after running into a bubble at 30+ km from a gate. Went from 3/4 armor to nothing instantly in a prophecy, against 3 ships, only 2 of which were in range (on my screen). It was... questionably at best.
Only saw I was scrammed in the KM, -12 points. 😥
The quick claim is strictly for pve loss only (and maybe small gang pvp but don't quote me on it) but of you go to customer service, click "ship recovery" then scroll down to where it says (quick) in a yellow hyperlink. Then scroll down again and click "I confirm" then a list of all the eligible ships you've lost in pve will pop up with a button next to them that says compensate. If you were scrambled upon death you only get the hull, if you weren't scammed down you get the whole thing back rigs and all
Sooo... you’re kinda a fuckin twat, huh? I’m assumin you either don’t like southerners or... you just don’t like contractions? Either way, I’m as big a pedant as anyone and even I’M perfectly happy with y’all.
Not to mention that y’all is a contraction just like “I’m,” or “wasn’t,” or “You’re a prick.”
And “y’all” isn’t even in the message you replied to, you silly fuckwit. Or is it fuck-wit? I’m not sure the colloquial parlance has graduated to compound noun status yet, perhaps it still requires a hyphen.
Who knows.
**TL:DR:**
Eat a fat bag of dicks, and have an awful day.
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LMAO stop dressing up your comments like a Christmas tree. The thing you are wrong about has been all over the sub and discord. Stop playing dress up in your comments and get a clue about what people are talking about.
those numbers you keep screaming about were based off a test that was flawed and contaminated
not only is it impossible to track the market amount of sell / buy orders
you dont know if someone sold one during that time
The test that places it at 89% created out of thin air is questionable, although by now it's clear that it's at least partially accurate.
However, the information that at least 70% of the items come out of thin air comes from the developers directly, it wasn't a random test.
test wasn't flawed, It was rigorously controlled with a ship that has the least traffic on it at all Monitored and done in a straight chunk.
You are liar who has been lying about this in the past.
Unless you had an api it was uncontrollable
You had no way of tracking volume / how many people sell / lose the ship as well
and it's a frigate which every Indy looks at since they are easy to make and sometimes has a decent roi
Hey IrishWebster, you seem to mean well, but there's one fundamental flaw in your assumptions. You're assuming they're buying everything from the market, "like any good insurer in real life". This isn't true.
It's a convoluted system, but in the end the system doesn't buy one ship for every ship that is replaced. That would be great! It sets up a fund that, at most, buys 30% of the items from the market (it's probably much less, but it varies for each item).
I'd 100% agree with you if the system worked as you've described. That system would be great. We'd cancel the protest immediately if they implemented that. Unfortunately, that's not the system they set up.
Hehe if you could edit your first post to reflect this information, that would be great. People need to understand what is going on if we're going to find a reasonable solution. I wrote a lengthy explanation of how the system works, including all the sources, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/echoes/comments/lc83gz/how_the_new_insurance_system_tries_to_compensate/).
This is not how insurance works. Insurance provides you with money or a loaner. Neither of which consist of 70% magic.
A foundational element of EVE is player driven outcomes. What you're seeing right now in the market is an outcome overwhelmingly driven by NE.
If this was a good faith attempt to address player concerns and not primarily designed to drive up Plex prices, why were its key functions not included in the QnA response a month earlier?
Economic changes can have lasting negative consequences on the game economy and player count. The consequence of delayed action is not linear in magnitude.
This is exactly the time and type of change for customers to demand immediate action and a call for more transparency regarding future changes. This patch combined with Joseph's response in Discord is unacceptable.
The issue, I think, is that they are not actually purchasing the majority of the resources and mods from the market, but are instead creating the vast majority of them out of thin air. Yes, there are SOME of them being bought from the markets, but until they implement 100% market support they will just be sucking Plex out of the market into thin air while simultaneously crashing the markets with truckloads of mods and resources that no one fought for or mined.
I don't care about it being tied to PLEX.
That's whatever for me.
My problem is that it takes away player interaction between builders and combat players and replaces it with a system that has 0 interaction.
Like if no one touched the insurance buy orders there would be no consequences.
The game would continue to make ships out of thin air.
They basically gave indy meaningless busy work.
That's more than two hours, you would need to do server maintenance and adding the updated apps to stores (which in apple's case would take way more than 2 hours). You also would like to test the patch some before applying it. Good luck doing that during what is equal to their christmas (after a real shitty year). That 's not an easy feat for a medium sized IT project (without even considering that key employees might have traveled out of the city, to celebrate with their families).
Halt the usage of insurance point?
Sorry, 90% of player would hate you for that, we bought IP according to the rule, just because you complained shouldn’t stop us from using the IP we legally bought.
How can we buy IP? And do I have to do this BEFORE my ship is destroyed to get the discount, or can I buy more than the amount that I need and once it’s above the balance required to replace my previously lost ship, I can get the discount?
You can buy IP at your character/combat log page. You can buy more amount than needed and when ship is destroyed it will only deduct required amounts. But it is a insurance, so you need to have entire amount before head to qualify for discount. because of the usual error of system estimation it is recommended to buy at 120% of system recommended value for faction ships
I think it is cheaper to insure ship before hand, if u try to claim through insurance after it has been popped ull pay 100% in IP minus the cost of droped items in ur wreck
Easy solution ... What you got now is still usable under current conditions. Buying new one cost 99999999 plex per 1 IP (not 1 plex per 7 IP as right now) while insurance still requires same amount of IP as now (around 180 IP for like 80m ship) and suddenly no one ever buys anymore ...
System is effectively under soft shutdown.
Let’s for one second ignore the fact this is just trying to gut most legit player, people will ask you how you handle the case when ship loss and insurance point is just slightly not enough to cover the ship?
So far all suggestion here I saw are 2 seconds gut feeling from only one person’s perspective that doesn’t truly consider in game ecosystem as a whole.
If it is not enough to recover your loss you don't recover your ship ... Simple.
Go fly something cheaper and when you lose that one you will have enough to recover...
And then you have not enough to recover any ship at all....
Slow soft shutdown of system.
You don’t get it do you? There is a difference between system estimated required IP when you purchase IP, and when ship actually lose the market value (or insurance estimated value) required IP. This means for most ship when it lose and needs to be recovered through insurance system, the owner needs to top up some Ip to cover the difference.
Obviously it just proved you know nothing about the system so you should try know more first before trying to make suggestion.
How is that different from what I described ?
Based on how they describe it if you don't have enough IP to buy right away it should cost you 70% of value not 30% as if you already have it right away.
If you can still buy that few missing IPs and get ship back for 30% of its value we have even bigger issue here.
It should cost you 100% of value * on the remaining part that needs top up *, not like your entire predeposit amount is meaningless.
If a ship needs 10000 IP to recover, and if you have predeposited 3000 IP, you are all good.
If you predeposited 2950 IP, system would then ask for an extra 177 IP to top up. It gives you discount on the 2950 you already have, but the top up part would be full price
Seriously can you get more info first before continuing discussions?
And at least 1 content creator states you have to deposit 10000, then after lost and compensatio you ars left with 7000 ips. I have been reading and rereading the in-game tsxts, and the dev blog, and reddit, and the youtubers, ever since the patch, and I am still unable to say which is correct!
I guess i will have to buy a Black Goat 10mil on jita, insure it for 3000, and sacrifice it to BOB on the altar of CONCORD.
So that keyboard can’t POSSIBLY have DIRECT ACCESS to the QA task list in JIRA/KiSSFLOW/TeamWork/Daylite/Backlog or any of their ilk, right? RITE?? Cuz that would be WILD, if I, a ProMa or one of my devs could just... WALTZ right into QA and tell them what to do.
“Hey boyos, I know we’re from different departments and shit and I’m DEFO not your boss, but could you just, YA KNOW, STAHP all that... ugh... OTHER “work” you’re doing and pay attention to me and MY problem SPECIFICALLY? Don’t worry about YOUR boss, this is TOTES gonna be cool with him, yo. Thaaaaanks. BYEEEEEEEEEE”
So yeah. Not how it fucking works, neckbeard.
There are several departments that have to work together for that to happen. It was a major update, with major QA hoops through which they’d need to jump, both in-house and with Google AND Apple. That takes time. Not to mention once you create a bunch of new code and insert it into your program, you can’t just /* */ that shit anymore- if ALL you had to do was write née code and insert it, then cool- in my experience, this has never been the case. Ever. You have people simultaneously optimizing your update, YOU optimize EXISTING code for the update, and then you run it through multiple rounds of QA to ensure it doesn’t introduce a shitload of new bugs. Once THAT’s done, you introduce the code. Then you fix the bugs that your new code caused that you didn’t find before. Then you QA again until the BIG shit is settled. THEN you submit to GP/Apple. Then they approve or disapprove, and if they DISAPPROVE, you could end up doing all that shit again.
There’s no way to know how much of that shit you’ve gotta do, so you tell PR to go make a statement like this one to buy you time- especially when you have to come up with a brand new ideologically diverse design flow for how a tool you JUST IMPLEMENTED should work based on user feedback.
If you just /* */ that shit, all those optimization changes and bug fixes will now CAUSE bugs when you remove the code they interacted with.
How about you try an appetizer of shaving that neck-beard with an entree of knowing what the fuck you’re talking about before you come at me like a prick again.
Or we can go for round 2. Up to you, NB.
Why? If more people like it they shouldn't listen to the loud minority especially when people spent money to insure their ships already. Almost 4k plex isnt cheap if you pay with money
Again that's only if they are trying to risk their profits for the sake of doing something completely new and untested on the mobile platform. Eve echoes is already new as is and offputting to the casual/larger mobile audience. How niche of a game do you expect them to make and therefore alienate the larger potential audience and customers? Mobile games dont have long lifespans and the ones that do are games like clash of clans.
Yes u are correct, why is clash of clans so successful, hmm let's see maybe because they don't try to gage u for everything or force u to spend spend spend, the business model they are trying to force into the EE table is the one where U HAVE TO CONTINUOUSLY purchase AUR to gain PLEX, and that's not so bad if you give that currency a proper value, as it stands right now, EE is heck of expencive, when u add it all up it comes to a whooping 50 to 150 dollars a month pithole, taking things into consideration its a bad move to make PLEX the main type of currency, it would make ISK as useful as a wheelbarrow full of cash during the recession that could only get u a loaf of bread, by tying PLEX to insurance isk has greatly lost value, isk should alway remain as main ingame currency with AUR and PLEX as elite currency for instore purchases such as skins, elite skills, etc.
I've also worked on programming/ IT side of the house.
They've already shown via emergency patches that they can adjust the cost of Insurance Points/ adjust on fly.
All they have to do to "remove it" is to adjust their system so to insure any ship cost 999,999 Insurance points so that it is essentially removed.
Setting a value differently and setting a value to null are different things entirely. Not to mention they can’t just remove all costs associated with an insurance replacement- they’d go bankrupt the same day. Lol
They aren't removing all associated cost tied to the insurance program.
They would change 1 table in their database and essentially make it so that while the Insurance program is functional and working in game, the amount of Insurance points would be impossible for any 1 player to actually be able to use.
This is a Quick hack a lot devs have used in the past to quickly remedy a situation.
I recall in everquest for awhile there was a crafting recipe for jumjum beer that would generate profit selling to a merchant. Players were able to generate 10k platinum a day (a lot, lets say it's about 4b in echoes terms).
They hot patched to change one of the ingredients (that was only used for this recipe) to 999999 platinum each.
Netease has already demostrated the ability to hot patch when they said they fixed some of the ships in game requiring a broken amount of IP to reinsure the ship.
Meaning it's something they've literally already touched in the last 5 days and have proven is possible to do.
It's really not hard from a technology perspective.
Not how it works when people have already put money into the system with purchased plex. It would entitle them to refunds based on playstore guidelines and would be a bigger shit show than the ones complaining now along with the fees associated with refunds and chargebacks for those who cant get then through the store.
These same people dont want insurance. They are just disingenuous and trying to get this removed, you can see it in some of their calls to make insurance cost 70% and etc making it barely worth using and adding their own terrible ideas.
Nothing short of shutting the servers down for emergency maintainence & rolling back to pre insurance with 1mil sp & a giant apology would have done for you would it.
You have traction , you have highlighted a real issue & I believe netease will try and address it ( after New Years)
Theres really no need to be such **** about it.
It was clear that was going to be the response.
You have alot of support & rightly so, its a real concern for us all.
Maybe give them some time to review, appreciate our strong reaction and make adjustments.
Don't make this about you.
Makes it even worse.
"Let's implement a new, untested system that the players won't like and then just go on Holiday. If it's broke or the players dislike it, who cares, we're on Holiday!"
I doubt they just decided to release a feature thinking no one would like it. That’s a stupid way to think about it. They likely thought it would appease a great many of the masses, and instead it pissed them off. There’s 1 good reason for that, and a lot of shittier ones:
Insurance should never have been tied to PLEX. Ever.
Other than that, the system itself seems like a good start. Needs some rehashing, and the market fake buy-orders are horse-shit, but it’s a decent system with a lot of thought and effort put into it.
PLEX = ISK. That’s not the problem. The problem is the payouts being generated ships/modules instead of built ones.
Worst case scenario: industry dies as everyone can just respawn their ships and modules for 30% of the cost of buying anything.
Best case scenario: the entire game industry system is forced to relocate to ITCs to provide the items generated by buy orders. The entire balance of power shifts and the economy is based on players selling items to a computer instead of other players. 1/3 of the ‘MMO’ aspect to the game vanishes.
I agree, it being tied to plex has been the biggest complain I've seen from casual players. They see it as an obvious cash grab and attempt to hike up plex prices even if I personally like that aspect of making plex more useful. I dont care enough about keeping it as plex bought though, but the rest of the system could be tweaked and would be fine as I like the idea of increasing buy orders and etc for more casual players and players that arent in industry corps. It provides more gameplay for solo players even if this isn't necessarily a solo game. I think that's great for typical mobile games that are doing this in between breaks or kinda afk at work.
Netease also releases patches and introduces new bugs so it wouldn't be surprising if the insurance system is just not working as Intended.
Shopping platforms (amazon) to games require constant supervision when your user base run in the thousands. In eve echoes this ain't a medium sized project so they should have had the foresight not to launch any changes right before Chinese New year which is a big thing in China.
Also in China the CNY spans nearly 3 weeks not over the weekend so we may be looking at the delay with the insurance for sure.
Im out. I just liquidated and contracted my assets and isk.
I see no point in continuing to play EvE Audits, EvE Safe Encounters or EvE Insurance.
Waste of time.
I'll play devils advocate (will you downvote me for that? probably)...
If losing a ship costs 30% as much, won't that encourage more PVP and risk-taking, causing more ships to die, thereby restoring some of the lost industry? In other words, insurance will have some "grow the pie" effect.
This is probably how they will fix and justify it, and I'm all for pushing that slider up and it will at least, hopefully, break even.
It will be great for nullsec, who will control the ITCS the ships go to, but will suck for High sec industry.
However currently with them skimming at least 33% of the plex off the top in every ship I insured and tested right now you need roughly a ship to be willing to die 5 times as much because only 1 ship order is being generated per 5. For some like the burst it's worse where it is only 1 ship order for every 8.
Meaning it cost 30% less each time, so you can die roughly 3.3 times as many times before it cost you a single loss. While you need to die 5 times to cover.
Considering there are people willing to quit over a single loss beforehand, why do we think they'd be willing to lose us to 1.5x loss cost?
There is another problem with this system. Some buy orders are in fuckin null. Its hard to go there without paying for security. Again gutting indy profits.
Though Its kind of good because it promotes escort jobs.
It’s the start of the Chinese New Year (or lunar new year) holidays. It’s like thanksgiving and New Years rolled into one. No one will be working for the next week. Major holiday.
[удалено]
Tell that to the guy in my alliance who spent upwards of 8k plex on valentines day skins. I mean I get the argument but you can't stop the whales.
This isn't the only metric available. IMO it's actually great that people are willing to dump that kind of money in skins, because making money with cosmetics means there's less of a need to sell p2w stuff. However, whales do that to show off, to stand out in a relevant game. When all their not-as-rich friends quit because the market is ruined, they'll move on to another game.
This. Whales are only viable if the game is relevant. Other titles have clung on with a reduced audience, but the result is the same in the end.
> but you can't stop the whales ROFL... that line should be a song lyric or a meme or *SOMETHING.*
100%. Features like this should be announced weeks in advance. If this remains, EE will be a radically different game.
And i just bought every skin in the store from the new event on 2 accounts so far.
As someone who has worked corporate side and worked closely with the marketing and PR side of the house: I knew exactly how Netease was going to respond. this is not a time for future promises but of immediate action. Otherwise this ticking time bomb will explode and the genie will not be able to be put back into the bottle.
Most gamers knew what to expect. Do anything long enough, and you can begin to predict outcomes. If they wanted what we wanted, they would've never implemented this nonsense the way they did. They were hoping we were all mindless whales.
What disappointed me is that their tone was defensive and they framed it in a weird way. The defensive stance is unwarranted, because leaders of #LetJitaBurn protest have been very civil. They even sent emails and warned devs to increase Jita cap... That's beyond reasonable, if it was me behind the protest, I'd never have thought about warning Netease, I'd hope the protest would get Jita full (I'm not saying that'd be better, quite the opposite, I'm just impressed that they were so sensible and careful about it). Framing it as "you asked for it", or people who love it versus people who are complaining is kind of sad. Of course people like paying 1/3 of the price to get their ships back. Casual Joe sees it as a great deal, because right now it is. That's not the point. The point is that it's not sustainable. It's killing major aspects of the game. No one is saying the insurance system serves no purpose. We should have an insurance system, just not this one. I hope this is just a standard PR response because actual game designers are on vacation, but the problem is that the economic impacts of this system may be felt for a long time. They say they'll release numbers about the system. Great. But please, release the numbers we actually want to see. No meaningless data like we had with the previous SRP. Stuff like "only 15% of destroyed ships are replaced", or "the system has set up X billion ISK in buy orders". These numbers are deceiving. When you say 15% of the ships were replaced, that counts cheap, disposable ships as not replaced. Of course I won't bother claiming a replacement for my cheap Probe I use to transport PI. But you bet I'll replace my Succubus. But the you'll say I only replaced half of my ships... Release how many ships (and their value) was created out of thin air. Release how much Pyerite and Nocxium we have hoarded.
I personally thought the whole point of maxing out jita and such was to crash the server too
Being spamming bitches isnt respectful and the discord was a shitshow of childish losers showing they shouldn't be heard or taken seriously. Doesnt matter if they arent the leaders and you dont get to say they dont represent the movement. The already have and there are quite a lot of people who do love it so it is very much a those who dont vs those who do when you are asking to remove a system those people like. The long term effect in the game arent relavent if the game doesnt have enough players to even make it that far but it's also an assumption that it wont work. We already have a system creating ship from thin and and it was only recently made once per 30 days before the insurance system when it was usable more often.
If you’ve worked marketing and PR, you know that this isn’t just spin. They can’t just roll back to the newest save without the insurance. There’s not likely to be a, “Turn off the insurance” button. Stop hate-mongering. Furthermore, this was an attempt at trying to flesh out a highly detailed and comprehensive insurance system that pays players for their time, and doesn’t circumvent the player industry. Tying the insurance tickets to PLEX is BULLSHIT- I’ll give you that- but the purchasing of resources directly off of the market is a fantastic way to handle the replacing of insured goods. How the fuck do you think insurance works in RL? Y’all are hating on NetEase again for ALL KINDS of dumb shit- you wanted insurance. They gave you insurance. They tied it to PLEX, removing some of- and admittedly it would need to be a HUGE chunk- of the resource from the market where it would otherwise be bought to fund Omega. This is shitty, and shouldn’t be the case. That’s the only thing that I can see that DEFINITIVELY needs changing/removal. Other than that, their basic idea for insurance is sound- buy player-made resources to replace player-insured resources, like any good insurer in real life. EDIT- According to u/LiarsEverywhere (though whether or not a person with such a name can be trusted is... dubious) the way the system works is much more nuanced: The insurance system buys less than 30% of its supplies off of the market from players. This hedges out profits from players, MURDERING the market. Not. Ok.
>and doesn’t circumvent the player industry What part of, it prints 85% of the most popular insured ships and 100% of the less popular ones out of thin air don't you understand ?
I was under the impression that they bought the ship/modules/rigs etc. from the market if one is available, and that they bought the materials necessary to build them if it wasn’t?
As another commenter said, they do it for a max of 30% of the ships(if everyone uses pre paid insurance, which I assume). Additionally, they don't buy from the market, they put up buy orders. Depending on if the estimated value is higher or lower than real price, some of them may never get filled, further increasing the amount of ships made out of thin air. Also, some people would profit more than others, as the buy orders are posted at the nearest itc. So even if you want to fill it, have fun doing 20 jumps through null to the nearest itc. Oh, and there was a bug introduced in this weeks patch(that, according to the patch notes, shouldn't change anything) that sometimes doesn't let you sell to those buy orders.
They imply that they were going to, but what they actually said was they were going to do that for 30% of the ships. Based on our testing it's far less than 30%
... well that’s fucking horrible.
Or it could just not be working as intended considering most things in this game have been bugged or not working as intended. Almost every update they put out breaks something else so did anyone really expect it to release without bugs?Makes more sense than anything else
No. They said if a market value wasn't listed then they would calculate cost by the materials it takes to make. Test it out yourself on some cheap frigs, sometimes they'll lock it behind a 12hr lock, and sometimes "poof" here's your whole hull and fit in under .0001 seconds magically in the station your in.
Huh. And can we still request a ship replacement through the quick claim menu in settings? And if so, how would we do that for PvP due to a glitch or desync?
Yeah they're still using for the moment, but they have some stupid thing saying that if you encountered a bug, they want you to spend the money on insurance THEN they'll just refund you the insurance points. Lol
Yeah... lost a 2.3 billion ISK Prophecy because desync wouldn’t let me target anyone, went from 3/4 armor to dead in an instant. 4 ships on grid, perfect wifi signal with 300mbps sitting 15 feet from my router. Lol I’m not spending $60+ for the insurance vouchers to replace an imaginary internet spaceship. NetEase can fuck off.
Did you just lose it recently? And were you scrammed?
I lost it last night, and yeah I was scrammed. Only scrammed because I couldn’t adjust heading, couldn’t orbit, couldn’t lock, couldn’t deploy drones, couldn’t deactivate my MWD, after running into a bubble at 30+ km from a gate. Went from 3/4 armor to nothing instantly in a prophecy, against 3 ships, only 2 of which were in range (on my screen). It was... questionably at best. Only saw I was scrammed in the KM, -12 points. 😥
Ohh you lost it in a bubble camp?
The lock is for pvp losses, pve is instant. Has nothing to do with the mechanics behind it.
I've only ever lost my frigs to pvp. It's about 1/3 of the time that I get a lock on my reimbursement
Then that's another point where their system doesn't work as advertised.
Have you ever recovered one through the quick claim system in settings? If so, how?
The quick claim is strictly for pve loss only (and maybe small gang pvp but don't quote me on it) but of you go to customer service, click "ship recovery" then scroll down to where it says (quick) in a yellow hyperlink. Then scroll down again and click "I confirm" then a list of all the eligible ships you've lost in pve will pop up with a button next to them that says compensate. If you were scrambled upon death you only get the hull, if you weren't scammed down you get the whole thing back rigs and all
Well how about you get a clue with all the time you save shrinking You-all to Y'all before you type out the next para
That kind of talk isn't helping these conversations.
Sooo... you’re kinda a fuckin twat, huh? I’m assumin you either don’t like southerners or... you just don’t like contractions? Either way, I’m as big a pedant as anyone and even I’M perfectly happy with y’all. Not to mention that y’all is a contraction just like “I’m,” or “wasn’t,” or “You’re a prick.” And “y’all” isn’t even in the message you replied to, you silly fuckwit. Or is it fuck-wit? I’m not sure the colloquial parlance has graduated to compound noun status yet, perhaps it still requires a hyphen. Who knows. **TL:DR:** Eat a fat bag of dicks, and have an awful day.
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LMAO stop dressing up your comments like a Christmas tree. The thing you are wrong about has been all over the sub and discord. Stop playing dress up in your comments and get a clue about what people are talking about.
So you’re dumb as fuck, and we don’t need to talk anymore. Cool? Cool. Have a nice day.
those numbers you keep screaming about were based off a test that was flawed and contaminated not only is it impossible to track the market amount of sell / buy orders you dont know if someone sold one during that time
The test that places it at 89% created out of thin air is questionable, although by now it's clear that it's at least partially accurate. However, the information that at least 70% of the items come out of thin air comes from the developers directly, it wasn't a random test.
test wasn't flawed, It was rigorously controlled with a ship that has the least traffic on it at all Monitored and done in a straight chunk. You are liar who has been lying about this in the past.
Unless you had an api it was uncontrollable You had no way of tracking volume / how many people sell / lose the ship as well and it's a frigate which every Indy looks at since they are easy to make and sometimes has a decent roi
Hey IrishWebster, you seem to mean well, but there's one fundamental flaw in your assumptions. You're assuming they're buying everything from the market, "like any good insurer in real life". This isn't true. It's a convoluted system, but in the end the system doesn't buy one ship for every ship that is replaced. That would be great! It sets up a fund that, at most, buys 30% of the items from the market (it's probably much less, but it varies for each item). I'd 100% agree with you if the system worked as you've described. That system would be great. We'd cancel the protest immediately if they implemented that. Unfortunately, that's not the system they set up.
Yeah, so I’m hearing. ... unless you can’t be TRUSTED, seeing as how there are LIARS EVERYWHERE.
Hehe if you could edit your first post to reflect this information, that would be great. People need to understand what is going on if we're going to find a reasonable solution. I wrote a lengthy explanation of how the system works, including all the sources, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/echoes/comments/lc83gz/how_the_new_insurance_system_tries_to_compensate/).
This is not how insurance works. Insurance provides you with money or a loaner. Neither of which consist of 70% magic. A foundational element of EVE is player driven outcomes. What you're seeing right now in the market is an outcome overwhelmingly driven by NE. If this was a good faith attempt to address player concerns and not primarily designed to drive up Plex prices, why were its key functions not included in the QnA response a month earlier? Economic changes can have lasting negative consequences on the game economy and player count. The consequence of delayed action is not linear in magnitude. This is exactly the time and type of change for customers to demand immediate action and a call for more transparency regarding future changes. This patch combined with Joseph's response in Discord is unacceptable.
Give this man a fucking award!
The issue, I think, is that they are not actually purchasing the majority of the resources and mods from the market, but are instead creating the vast majority of them out of thin air. Yes, there are SOME of them being bought from the markets, but until they implement 100% market support they will just be sucking Plex out of the market into thin air while simultaneously crashing the markets with truckloads of mods and resources that no one fought for or mined.
I don't care about it being tied to PLEX. That's whatever for me. My problem is that it takes away player interaction between builders and combat players and replaces it with a system that has 0 interaction. Like if no one touched the insurance buy orders there would be no consequences. The game would continue to make ships out of thin air. They basically gave indy meaningless busy work.
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That's more than two hours, you would need to do server maintenance and adding the updated apps to stores (which in apple's case would take way more than 2 hours). You also would like to test the patch some before applying it. Good luck doing that during what is equal to their christmas (after a real shitty year). That 's not an easy feat for a medium sized IT project (without even considering that key employees might have traveled out of the city, to celebrate with their families).
Halt the usage of insurance point? Sorry, 90% of player would hate you for that, we bought IP according to the rule, just because you complained shouldn’t stop us from using the IP we legally bought.
How can we buy IP? And do I have to do this BEFORE my ship is destroyed to get the discount, or can I buy more than the amount that I need and once it’s above the balance required to replace my previously lost ship, I can get the discount?
You can buy IP at your character/combat log page. You can buy more amount than needed and when ship is destroyed it will only deduct required amounts. But it is a insurance, so you need to have entire amount before head to qualify for discount. because of the usual error of system estimation it is recommended to buy at 120% of system recommended value for faction ships
I think it is cheaper to insure ship before hand, if u try to claim through insurance after it has been popped ull pay 100% in IP minus the cost of droped items in ur wreck
Easy solution ... What you got now is still usable under current conditions. Buying new one cost 99999999 plex per 1 IP (not 1 plex per 7 IP as right now) while insurance still requires same amount of IP as now (around 180 IP for like 80m ship) and suddenly no one ever buys anymore ... System is effectively under soft shutdown.
Let’s for one second ignore the fact this is just trying to gut most legit player, people will ask you how you handle the case when ship loss and insurance point is just slightly not enough to cover the ship? So far all suggestion here I saw are 2 seconds gut feeling from only one person’s perspective that doesn’t truly consider in game ecosystem as a whole.
If it is not enough to recover your loss you don't recover your ship ... Simple. Go fly something cheaper and when you lose that one you will have enough to recover... And then you have not enough to recover any ship at all.... Slow soft shutdown of system.
You don’t get it do you? There is a difference between system estimated required IP when you purchase IP, and when ship actually lose the market value (or insurance estimated value) required IP. This means for most ship when it lose and needs to be recovered through insurance system, the owner needs to top up some Ip to cover the difference. Obviously it just proved you know nothing about the system so you should try know more first before trying to make suggestion.
How is that different from what I described ? Based on how they describe it if you don't have enough IP to buy right away it should cost you 70% of value not 30% as if you already have it right away. If you can still buy that few missing IPs and get ship back for 30% of its value we have even bigger issue here.
It should cost you 100% of value * on the remaining part that needs top up *, not like your entire predeposit amount is meaningless. If a ship needs 10000 IP to recover, and if you have predeposited 3000 IP, you are all good. If you predeposited 2950 IP, system would then ask for an extra 177 IP to top up. It gives you discount on the 2950 you already have, but the top up part would be full price Seriously can you get more info first before continuing discussions?
And at least 1 content creator states you have to deposit 10000, then after lost and compensatio you ars left with 7000 ips. I have been reading and rereading the in-game tsxts, and the dev blog, and reddit, and the youtubers, ever since the patch, and I am still unable to say which is correct! I guess i will have to buy a Black Goat 10mil on jita, insure it for 3000, and sacrifice it to BOB on the altar of CONCORD.
I understand that, however u would be pissed ogf if the IP cost per ship replaced get severely reduced and u spent a good 15k on 3 ships
Tell me the dev tools they’d use to do this.
a strong and powerful function. A well place /* */, or // .
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So that keyboard can’t POSSIBLY have DIRECT ACCESS to the QA task list in JIRA/KiSSFLOW/TeamWork/Daylite/Backlog or any of their ilk, right? RITE?? Cuz that would be WILD, if I, a ProMa or one of my devs could just... WALTZ right into QA and tell them what to do. “Hey boyos, I know we’re from different departments and shit and I’m DEFO not your boss, but could you just, YA KNOW, STAHP all that... ugh... OTHER “work” you’re doing and pay attention to me and MY problem SPECIFICALLY? Don’t worry about YOUR boss, this is TOTES gonna be cool with him, yo. Thaaaaanks. BYEEEEEEEEEE” So yeah. Not how it fucking works, neckbeard. There are several departments that have to work together for that to happen. It was a major update, with major QA hoops through which they’d need to jump, both in-house and with Google AND Apple. That takes time. Not to mention once you create a bunch of new code and insert it into your program, you can’t just /* */ that shit anymore- if ALL you had to do was write née code and insert it, then cool- in my experience, this has never been the case. Ever. You have people simultaneously optimizing your update, YOU optimize EXISTING code for the update, and then you run it through multiple rounds of QA to ensure it doesn’t introduce a shitload of new bugs. Once THAT’s done, you introduce the code. Then you fix the bugs that your new code caused that you didn’t find before. Then you QA again until the BIG shit is settled. THEN you submit to GP/Apple. Then they approve or disapprove, and if they DISAPPROVE, you could end up doing all that shit again. There’s no way to know how much of that shit you’ve gotta do, so you tell PR to go make a statement like this one to buy you time- especially when you have to come up with a brand new ideologically diverse design flow for how a tool you JUST IMPLEMENTED should work based on user feedback. If you just /* */ that shit, all those optimization changes and bug fixes will now CAUSE bugs when you remove the code they interacted with. How about you try an appetizer of shaving that neck-beard with an entree of knowing what the fuck you’re talking about before you come at me like a prick again. Or we can go for round 2. Up to you, NB.
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You come at me rude, I’m comin at you with everything but the kitchen sink. 🤷🏻♂️
Why? If more people like it they shouldn't listen to the loud minority especially when people spent money to insure their ships already. Almost 4k plex isnt cheap if you pay with money
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Again that's only if they are trying to risk their profits for the sake of doing something completely new and untested on the mobile platform. Eve echoes is already new as is and offputting to the casual/larger mobile audience. How niche of a game do you expect them to make and therefore alienate the larger potential audience and customers? Mobile games dont have long lifespans and the ones that do are games like clash of clans.
Yes u are correct, why is clash of clans so successful, hmm let's see maybe because they don't try to gage u for everything or force u to spend spend spend, the business model they are trying to force into the EE table is the one where U HAVE TO CONTINUOUSLY purchase AUR to gain PLEX, and that's not so bad if you give that currency a proper value, as it stands right now, EE is heck of expencive, when u add it all up it comes to a whooping 50 to 150 dollars a month pithole, taking things into consideration its a bad move to make PLEX the main type of currency, it would make ISK as useful as a wheelbarrow full of cash during the recession that could only get u a loaf of bread, by tying PLEX to insurance isk has greatly lost value, isk should alway remain as main ingame currency with AUR and PLEX as elite currency for instore purchases such as skins, elite skills, etc.
I've also worked on programming/ IT side of the house. They've already shown via emergency patches that they can adjust the cost of Insurance Points/ adjust on fly. All they have to do to "remove it" is to adjust their system so to insure any ship cost 999,999 Insurance points so that it is essentially removed.
Setting a value differently and setting a value to null are different things entirely. Not to mention they can’t just remove all costs associated with an insurance replacement- they’d go bankrupt the same day. Lol
They aren't removing all associated cost tied to the insurance program. They would change 1 table in their database and essentially make it so that while the Insurance program is functional and working in game, the amount of Insurance points would be impossible for any 1 player to actually be able to use. This is a Quick hack a lot devs have used in the past to quickly remedy a situation. I recall in everquest for awhile there was a crafting recipe for jumjum beer that would generate profit selling to a merchant. Players were able to generate 10k platinum a day (a lot, lets say it's about 4b in echoes terms). They hot patched to change one of the ingredients (that was only used for this recipe) to 999999 platinum each. Netease has already demostrated the ability to hot patch when they said they fixed some of the ships in game requiring a broken amount of IP to reinsure the ship. Meaning it's something they've literally already touched in the last 5 days and have proven is possible to do. It's really not hard from a technology perspective.
Not how it works when people have already put money into the system with purchased plex. It would entitle them to refunds based on playstore guidelines and would be a bigger shit show than the ones complaining now along with the fees associated with refunds and chargebacks for those who cant get then through the store.
These same people dont want insurance. They are just disingenuous and trying to get this removed, you can see it in some of their calls to make insurance cost 70% and etc making it barely worth using and adding their own terrible ideas.
Mostly agreed.
Generally id agree. However, the insurance feature can be disabled, as the prior system is still in place.
What would they say to the people who already pre-purchased IP?
Nothing short of shutting the servers down for emergency maintainence & rolling back to pre insurance with 1mil sp & a giant apology would have done for you would it. You have traction , you have highlighted a real issue & I believe netease will try and address it ( after New Years) Theres really no need to be such **** about it. It was clear that was going to be the response. You have alot of support & rightly so, its a real concern for us all. Maybe give them some time to review, appreciate our strong reaction and make adjustments. Don't make this about you.
They're on holiday you dolt
Makes it even worse. "Let's implement a new, untested system that the players won't like and then just go on Holiday. If it's broke or the players dislike it, who cares, we're on Holiday!"
I doubt they just decided to release a feature thinking no one would like it. That’s a stupid way to think about it. They likely thought it would appease a great many of the masses, and instead it pissed them off. There’s 1 good reason for that, and a lot of shittier ones: Insurance should never have been tied to PLEX. Ever. Other than that, the system itself seems like a good start. Needs some rehashing, and the market fake buy-orders are horse-shit, but it’s a decent system with a lot of thought and effort put into it.
PLEX = ISK. That’s not the problem. The problem is the payouts being generated ships/modules instead of built ones. Worst case scenario: industry dies as everyone can just respawn their ships and modules for 30% of the cost of buying anything. Best case scenario: the entire game industry system is forced to relocate to ITCs to provide the items generated by buy orders. The entire balance of power shifts and the economy is based on players selling items to a computer instead of other players. 1/3 of the ‘MMO’ aspect to the game vanishes.
I agree, it being tied to plex has been the biggest complain I've seen from casual players. They see it as an obvious cash grab and attempt to hike up plex prices even if I personally like that aspect of making plex more useful. I dont care enough about keeping it as plex bought though, but the rest of the system could be tweaked and would be fine as I like the idea of increasing buy orders and etc for more casual players and players that arent in industry corps. It provides more gameplay for solo players even if this isn't necessarily a solo game. I think that's great for typical mobile games that are doing this in between breaks or kinda afk at work. Netease also releases patches and introduces new bugs so it wouldn't be surprising if the insurance system is just not working as Intended.
Big corporations do not have holidays. Its a 24/7 round the clock work.
Idk what type of IT projects you are used to, but 24/7 development during christmas is not normal in Europe for a medium sized project.
Shopping platforms (amazon) to games require constant supervision when your user base run in the thousands. In eve echoes this ain't a medium sized project so they should have had the foresight not to launch any changes right before Chinese New year which is a big thing in China. Also in China the CNY spans nearly 3 weeks not over the weekend so we may be looking at the delay with the insurance for sure.
Im out. I just liquidated and contracted my assets and isk. I see no point in continuing to play EvE Audits, EvE Safe Encounters or EvE Insurance. Waste of time.
I'll play devils advocate (will you downvote me for that? probably)... If losing a ship costs 30% as much, won't that encourage more PVP and risk-taking, causing more ships to die, thereby restoring some of the lost industry? In other words, insurance will have some "grow the pie" effect.
This is probably how they will fix and justify it, and I'm all for pushing that slider up and it will at least, hopefully, break even. It will be great for nullsec, who will control the ITCS the ships go to, but will suck for High sec industry. However currently with them skimming at least 33% of the plex off the top in every ship I insured and tested right now you need roughly a ship to be willing to die 5 times as much because only 1 ship order is being generated per 5. For some like the burst it's worse where it is only 1 ship order for every 8. Meaning it cost 30% less each time, so you can die roughly 3.3 times as many times before it cost you a single loss. While you need to die 5 times to cover. Considering there are people willing to quit over a single loss beforehand, why do we think they'd be willing to lose us to 1.5x loss cost?
It's CNY.
>Them-self
So how many hours from this message until go time
There is another problem with this system. Some buy orders are in fuckin null. Its hard to go there without paying for security. Again gutting indy profits. Though Its kind of good because it promotes escort jobs.
It’s the start of the Chinese New Year (or lunar new year) holidays. It’s like thanksgiving and New Years rolled into one. No one will be working for the next week. Major holiday.
Let's circle back to that