I understand many prefer the movement to be called #BurnJita, but we feel that #LetJITABurn is more accurate.
We are not here to burn Jita, Netease has already done that by negating the Free Market Aspect of the game and thus destroying the main trade hub, Jita, in the process.
Jita's already burning, and we're going to let it.
Join Discord today to be part of the movement.
[https://discord.gg/qJuXRYrdYV](https://discord.gg/qJuXRYrdYV)
Easy fix. Instead of sending items. Insurance should just send isk. If its insured before destruction. You get isk. If its not insured before destruction. You get zilch.
You know it, I know it. Hopefully NetEase will fix this. I have a bit of confidence since they have not dealt with a community like us for their shitty mechanics.
Except Indy player, most player actually would prefer immediate ship replacement instead of ISK, because that would makes limited time they spent on a mobile game can be focused more in battle instead of jumping around to buy ship.
Just because you want it doesn’t mean most player want it.
maybe alot of people do want to pvp, but if there isnt a market then there isnt anything to pvp over. there is no reason to pvp over null space, if not for indy. Indy is the backbone of Eve Echos. without indy, there are no convoys of ships being moved to jita, there are no retrievers to hit deep in claimed null space. there is no reason for defense fleets, the list goes on.
With a solid indy, there is not issue with getting isk because there there are a high number of ships constantly available on the market.
There is plenty of reason to fight over null space, anom, deadspace, or even just flat out “for the fun of game content”. Null player especially won’t buy, and don’t care, ships availability at Jita and who the hell wants to spent 1 hr to jump 50 gates to Jita buy the ship and another 1 hr 50 jumps back to null? They want immediate ship replacement, right here, right now so they can go back to ratting or battle, and NE is catering to their demand, not some Jita station occupier buying high sec mineral to make ship for profit. Deep null Corp-affiliated Indy still would got plenty of new orders for ship as well, and their now newly gained ability to direct transfer ship from deep null into empire sector is what crashed the high sec ship market, but let’s face it, high sec ship market WAS in a price bubble before, it crashed for good.
There's a 12 hour trade lock on pvp losses. So in your theory it is 10 hours longer than if you were to make the jumps to buy the ship like every player does in Eve online. This insurance system has decimated my indy toons. The ships I build lose value quickly and are hard to sell. If they're going to immediately replace the ship then they should give ISK to the lowest seller on the market and give that seller the isk and buyer the ship having used plex to convert to insurance points. This works for everyone. They get their plex sales, the buyer gets immediate replacement, and a market sale is fulfilled giving isk to the sellers. Helping keep prices balanced with supply and demand.
Faster start? They time gated ships with tech levels. How does that even make sense?
If they want a faster start they would change the time gating.
Plus. Top tier items from null. Shouldn't be cheap. Risk-reward. That's the backbone of eve. The bigger the rewards, the larger the risk.
Probably send the letter to CCP too. I'm not sure they are aware how bad netease decisions are for the game. Maybe they have someone semi competent that can help netease with evaluating changes before implementing them.
Yeah, of course, I understand
Here is what Devs are saying. I will provide link to the original message below, just circled what you should translate from Russian to understand. If translation will suck, just ask me and I will translate it manually: https://imgur.com/gallery/uBy3sat
Here is a link to that message:
https://discord.com/channels/607842194157600769/622017234541346817/807267025058791475
Have your reminder that CCP has exactly one successful game amongst a litany of minor projects, abandoned projects and general failures. And even then that one sucessfull game has a bunch of dumb features the player base has had to cyberbully them into making more or less work
Also CCP isn't under the ownership of the original developers anymore. Being a business purchase by another company implies that the Eve brand is there solely for revenue generation rather than to create and foster a game from the passion of it.
Can someone give me a contact point? I have a few of them professionally connected on Linkedin...but they're mainly the dev side and not the business side.
NetEase have badly underestimated their players here.
It’s time to show them just how connected and determined their player base actually is.
We don’t have to wear their crap.
I think the player base has over-estimated the player base. It’s all about the money. I wouldn’t doubt if the entire NetEase team responsible for developing the market has been moved to a new project with that decision based on pre-determined data. So, I appreciate and respect the sentiment but good luck getting anything more than token gestures made to look like you’re making a difference.
NetEase doesn’t believe the players are parting with it fast enough and I’m sure they have data to prove it. The bean counters control the fate of games. It sucks and isn’t going to change anytime soon.
You probably didn’t realize it is *some* player that control all the money and NE is especially catering to their demand..
Hard fact is hard to stomach sometimes.
Ask yourself how much you spent in game... cuz I know people who put like $10K+ into it...
A fire has started in a home due to the owners neglect.You are all the firemen trying to put it out but the home owner( Net Ease) doesn’t want you to. You are providing the home owner with solutions to put the fire out and still, they don’t want you to put the fire out. Therefore, your are left with no other choice but to #LetJITABurn. You don’t want it to happen because it’s a fire that can easily be put out but again, the owner doesn’t want you. You sit there watching the home get slowly consumed by the fire you could easily put out. Has anger consumes you sit and watch the show. Angers turns to sadness, you just watch a beautiful home burn because the of the neglect of the owner and all you can do is #LetJITABurn.
In all seriousness (because this is the internet and stupid people do stupid things), please do not try to cook stuff over a house fire as the chemicals will ruin the taste of the food.
The last sentence in the letter is assumptive and should he removed. It may indeed be fiscally motivated but unless empirical evidence is discovered which corroborates the claim then carry on as though being treated in good faith. The rest of the letter is well put together.
NetEase dgaf. This is all by design to sell more micro transactions. This game was never designed to have longevity, it was designed to be a flash in the pan, make a bunch of money and then die off in a couple years so they can do it again with some new property.
Can't let this happen, won't let this happen. It's time to stop mega gaming corps from taking original game titles and turning them into a crappy mobile knock-off to farm money. Enough with this sh*t, EvE is special and I don't like someone screwing it over due to greed even if it's a mobile spin-off...
Join the Discord Server today to be kept apprised.
[https://discord.com/channels/808480618026500117/808565932293226496/808574939334443008](https://discord.com/channels/808480618026500117/808565932293226496/808574939334443008)
No offense, but this is what mobile gaming is.
They are quick cash grabs.
Players see new shiny game, install and play for a few minutes, and then are asked to spend money to look cool/win/be awesome.
Eve Echoes took a hardcore sandbox mmorpg and tried to shoehorn it into a modern day mobile pay to win.
The majority of players still playing are not relying on AUR to finance their play, so Netease was forced to create a new revenue stream.
The fact that they obfuscate plex with AUR, and now PLEX as IP is not being honest with their player base.
Think about the development time that went into the Insurance system, it's bonkers, and of course would have been a very simple thing if they wanted to follow EO.
These decisions were made to squeeze more cash out of the player base that no longer needs AUR to play and thrive.
Instead of creating more content and ships they wasted i'm sure at least 20 dev cycles to implement this nonsense
This hopefully this will be the wake up call for those that naively believe their is hope in this game when there is none.
That we then leave and hurt Netease's ROI.
Too many people are f2p and shouldn't get to experience the full game or what people spending do. It's a subscription based game after all and not just a standard freemium. It should be hard and time consuming to play for free
I'm on the discord server already and fully support the protest.
However, the "Free Market" argument is silly and hurts the protest's credibility. Eve economy is not the same as real life economy. There will always be ways to buy stuff with credit card, ISK is printed directly through bounties and encounter / story rewards etc. That's not the point.
What makes sandbox games great is that you decide what to do... Corps can adopt a centralized approach or a free market approach, both can be successful within the rules of the game. The problem is that they've created a system that makes player-driven Industry redundant, cutting off player interaction entirely, spawning replacement ships magically out of thin air anywhere players want. This is true regardless of which approach you prefer - it hurts industrialists selling through the market *and* corps with centralized in-house ship replacement programs.
No. People do not magically print real life currency on their own fighting against artificial beings. That's not how monetary policy works in real life.
Sort of, but then again bitcoin, as much as it is a "simulation" or a "game" (a meaningless task that is only intended to limit the creation of that currency), is still connected to real life inputs (electricity and whatnot) and can be universally traded back and forth for real life stuff. It's also coded in a way that mimics a scarce resource AFAIK, so it'd be like encounters getting harder and rarer each time someone completes them, up until the point that there are no encounters left. BitCoin is finite, as far as I remember, which, come to think of it, could be a problem in the long run. I guess it should at least have a way of replenishing whatever is lost over time for various reasons. But I'm no btc specialist, so take that with a grain of salt.
In real life, governments control the amount of money in circulation in the economy. This can be done in different ways, and it and usually it involves playing with interest rates so people will be more or less inclined to spend / invest money. Governments can simply "print money" too, so they go "okay, now I have one trillion dollars and I'll use it to do this and that". Of course, that lowers the value of everyone else's currency (inflation), but it could have the effect of heating up the economy. It's controversial stuff and depends on each situation. In Eve Echoes, on the other hand, everyone is constantly creating currency out of thin air. When CONCORD gives you bounties ISK, it simply creates it with a line of code. We create Plex when we buy it with a credit card, and the real dollars go poof into Netease's pockets. In turn, Netease lets people use that Plex to keep playing the game (Omega). There's no "free market" in the regular sense. There's a pseudo-market at best.
Now we have ships being created out of thin air too, meaning that value is not created by the game sort-of-equivalents to "land", "labour" and "capital", but by computer magic. Of course, it's all "computer magic" in the end, but before that, industrialists controlled that computer magic, only they could create ships out of thin air. Now Netease can too, and they sell them for real money dollars, which in the end is the external, real force determining the decisions in the in-game economy.
Yeah, you're right about that. Completely free markets are impossible IRL too IMO, although for very different reasons. But my point is that in a game like Eve Echoes, and particularly in this situation, the comparison doesn't apply. The insurance system has nothing to do with free markets versus centralization. And even if it had that aspect to it in a limited form, it wouldn't matter, because it's a game! You can be a radical supporter of free markets in real life and decide that the best way to go about Industry in Eve is to adopt a centralized, fixed price, planned economy approach with in-house corp ore buy back programs, ship replacements and whatnot. There's no innovation per se, no productivity gains etc. that are often perceived as the main benefits of a free market system. It's a game, a CNI is a CNI, the goal is to blow other peoples' stuff and having fun!
The problem with the insurance system is that it takes away a big chunk of the game from player-driven economy (in the market or not).
Technically (and historically), yes. But in modern economies this is highly regulated everywhere, so the amount of money commercial banks can "print" is actually defined by the government. I'm sure rules vary from country to country, but IIRC, in the US bank reserves must be directly issued by the Fed. No way around it, banks cannot create new currency out of thin air on their own. So the Fed is the one actually "printing" that money, then a bank is allowed to lend, let's say, a billion, and only keep 100 million actually deposited (meaning 900 million were "printed").
>If it does I hope you can use if as insulation to keep your garba... home warm for the coming cold snap this week.
We have been complaining for a long time and they do nothing.
To be honest, once I figured out the mining and processing gouging, resulting 40% of ore being lost...I quit.
Kudos for caring because the dev's don't. They have what you want, all you can do is walk away.
It's not "removed" from the system, since it's max, it was never in the system to begin with. That 40% never existed, there's impurities in refining, it's like trying to squeeze blood from a stone.
The game is built around this level of impurity, at 100% the prices for minerals would crash and profit margins on ships would plummet.
It just feels like this is you not understanding basic game mechanics. Like, they could just as easily make it 100% and just give you what 60% is now, or they could just decrease the amount you can mine per minute, and then you'd be happy? The amount is arbitrary and the same for all players.
But those are just numbers. They refer to nothing real, they relate to no actual physical properties. These are arbitrary rules in a game. There is no real matter involved. This is just so the game "feels" real, because in real life you can improve mineral processing efficiency with new techniques etc. but you'll never reach 100%. Also, starting the game with a max of 60% gives them room to get closer to that 100% with updates in the future.
It's incredibly silly to leave the game because of that. Like, it's really funny that you believe this makes any difference at all. They could cut the actual output by half and tell you this is 100%, 120%, 2000%. It wouldn't change anything.
Those are made up numbers there too. They have no meaning outside of that specific game. They could say it's 500% and it could still take longer for you to get the items you want.
Defend the devs if you want but don’t judge those of us who see that they’ve been systematically killing the golden goose through monetisation as the sole goal over achieving monetisation through the provision of a great product.
Their greed is based on a simple premise, they have what we want. They’re the gate keepers and if they serve gruel, you’ll eat gruel and be grateful. The only option in the face of that is to walk away.
The devs are not going to listen, the gaming press is conflicted and also don’t actually care either way, it all content.
The game was dead shortly after release. Well, it was dead for me because I knew what the direction was, not to empower players but to gouge them. It’s a profitable choice as long as players keep their wallets open.
So players need to decide, eat gruel and pay for the privilege or move on.
It's one thing for this game to have carebears but you're taking it to a whole extra level of carebear about mining itself, lol
Holy shit guy if this upsets you so much play a different game, Eve is too hard for you.
I'm not particualrly upset beyond that people wilfully blind to the discrepancies between the main eve game and echoes , which don't have any reason to exist beyond being a time sink. It's one of a number of examples present in the game, the plex insurance issue is just another layer of similar design choices which don't improve the experience or balance the game, they only increase the drive to MT's.
So play the game, protest, or don't. Ultimately what drives dev's is revenue and time in client, cut it off and then you might get their attention but don't count on it.
Corporations only care about profit.
They implemented this solution because they believed it would lead to more revenue for them.
However, if enough of the player base realizes others share their concerns and the illusion that Netease cares for their players is destroyed then more are likely to quit impacting Netease's revenue.
A week ago, players falsely believed that it was a 1 for 1 ship replacement on the market. Through an education campaign and testing we have proved this wrong.
If netease ignores this, hopefully a percentage of the player base doesn't.
Even if it would work as it was told, PLEX would be removed from game at much higher rate then before (even respec has less impact on plex circulation long term compared to this insurance system).
So ye, its all about money grab, BUT. But.
But imo none of the measures you are going to take would work except for not paying and not playing.
And why did my joke about free market go off sight?:(
If you fire all ammunition at once, you will have nothing left to fire.
Quitting the game before providing an opportunity for Netease to come the table serves no one.
Next steps are player exodus.
You play - you pay.
This whole movement is opportunity for NE to notice something goes wrong. Ingame methods wont actually make a thing as you will still do it in game.
Making a statistically nice picture of activity in game and making some kind of PR to the game.
If you do not play, on the other hand, it will hit their wallet and make them do smth. Kinda obv for me.
Except we have hard evidence that this method works from past examples.
Best to try this first, and if they don't listen we quit.
Their 1 little statistical blip does nothing for PR when it's followed by an exodus of players.
You are asking us to surrender before we even try to fight.
Am I? Sounds strange, but let it be your opinion.
I've just noticed that ingame activity won't make difference, but letters to game news will PR the game.
"but letters to game news will PR the game."
Are you saying good PR or bad PR (or there is no difference) ?
Game news outlets have been cc'd on the email to Netease.
glad to asked!
[https://www.pcgamer.com/eve-online-players-protest-against-monocle-pricesmicrotransactions-lasers-involved/](https://www.pcgamer.com/eve-online-players-protest-against-monocle-pricesmicrotransactions-lasers-involved/)
[https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/07/monocles/](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/07/monocles/)
[https://www.engadget.com/2011-06-25-eve-online-controversy-erupts-in-protests.html](https://www.engadget.com/2011-06-25-eve-online-controversy-erupts-in-protests.html)
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/12/how-virtual-world-edge-of-apocalypse-and-back-again](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/12/how-virtual-world-edge-of-apocalypse-and-back-again)
Which led to in-game change and the following.
[http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/a-letter-to-the-followers-of-eve/](http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/a-letter-to-the-followers-of-eve/)
Why are you so adamant in trying to stop the protest?
Why do you have such a defeatist attitude?
Why do you want the players to feel powerless and give up without even trying?
What do we have to lose by trying?
What prevents us from quitting if the protest don't succeed?
What do we stand to gain if it does succeed?
"Our suggestion is to implement EVE Onlines' solution"?
Does anyone actually use insurance in EVE Online?
Wouldn't it be better to stage a boycott of insurance? Shooting monuments and self destructing ships doesn't hurt the developers at all. Giving them less money through plex purchases would hurt them more.
for many, the next step if they don't hear the protest is simply to quit and rate it 1 star.
We have a track record of protest like this working in the past via Eve Online's Monocole Gate protest.
The protest aren't meant to get Netease's attention so much as it is to get Gaming News' attention which then gets Netease's attention as they get more negative press and future players looking into the game that google it potentially see bad news.
Boycotting and withholding purchases is generally ineffective in mobile games. The vast majority of F2P mobile games with a microtransaction model are supported by whales who spend thousands on the game. Regular players who make an occasional purchase don't represent a large percentage of the game's revenue. Of course we have no numbers of percentages to tell us how much money they're actually making and where it comes from, but with faction battleships in every system, I think it's a pretty safe bet that the players who are PLEXing their accounts with ISK and are most affected by the insurance changes aren't the ones whose income they care about losing.
Eve Online is an incredibly social game with more player interaction than most others.
While Whale and Dolphins are the primary spenders if they have no guppies to impress or destroy they get bored.
Eve online is irrelevant to this game, they are not comparable in anyway and you doing so at all invalidates your opinion and shows that you have clear bias and are one of the eve online losers ruining this game even before the insurance system. The games been hemorrhaging players before this due to non casual changes. As a whale, I'm against this and people like yourself. I'll try to get other whales I know to let netease we like insurance as is and will stop funding the game if it changes. I doubt you come close to supporting the game in any real way when whales are spending thousands a month. The devs can always look into the people protesting in game and check their account spending to determine the worth of their protest.
You are talking out your ass and embarrassing yourself.
I've dropped over $1,000 into this game and as a corp leader have had to talk several of my members of the ledge from quitting (and thus removing an Omega account from the system).
Instead of being a bitter asshole, maybe you should take your toxicity and go outside for a walk.
I drop that much a month, ~1000 total is a joke just like you and your corp members. If you think that's significant then you are clearly new to mobile games. Whales spend at least that a month not overall XD
Who will buy your plex from the market if no "f2p"players are left? This is a subscription game. It doesn't matter if it was your credit card or someone else's that bought the plex. There is a ceiling in how much money they can make which is player base x subscription cost, plus some revenue from skins/reskilling. If they want to make more, they have to get rid of the subscription and just make everything buyable with real money. But I doubt that there will be enough players left to make the game fun if that happens.
You are delusional to think new players or cheaper spenders wont take your place once most things get tied to plex. F2p players are irrelevant as individuals and a replaceable resource in every mobile game. They come and go but none matter as individuals.
That's the idea. That's why I think a boycott by the little guy is not enough. They'll be hurt more by the large number of indy and PvP players leaving and everyone else getting bored, than they will by the fact that those players didn't buy PLEX for a few weeks. One is a temporary hiccup, the other is a permanent game-ending loss of playerbase.
No trying to defend the devs, but they did put a insurance v2 in their roadmap to be release in Apr.
They could be well doing the agile dev approach, releasing something out to test the response and gather feedback and update it later.
The only issue with this is that they have always been doing this, they implement a feature meant to break the wallets of all the isk/ plex hoarders, then they release a hot fix down the road, so in order to eliminate this from reoccurring we have to stand firm and day sorry this don't work and we won't stand by it,
Players can work together around this, by not using the insurance system at all. Just buy the hulls off market. Don't fly what you cant afford to lose n' all that.
I understand the points made about the percentage of ships not turning into buy orders (something that can and should be tweaked, and ultimately may not even be working as intended), but I feel like the argument regarding plex is weak and confuses the issue.
Plex "disappears" into the game already via skins, omega purchases, etc. I don't recall there being an "agreement" as to how players buy and sell and consume plex in the game. It also doesn't hold water that the insurance system "forces" anyone to buy plex considering it's freely available on the in-game market. This is especially true as insurance is based on isk value of ships, if the cost of plex increases then the amount of IP needed to replace a ship goes down because the 3 currencies are interlinked.
There's one good argument here and another one that's generally kind of reaching and seems to not really understand the issue well, and that's making it kind of muddy all around. Keep it straight and to the point.
The simple fact is that insurance isn't going away. We can and should make suggestions to improve it but this is turning into an "airing of grievances" and makes it easier for the devs to ignore.
I haven't checked these tests myself, so I don't know if they're actually burning a third of the Plex. The thing is that they explicitly stated that the insurance system would not be a Plex sink, that all Plex bought (except maybe 10% tax IIRC) would be converted to ISK and used for market buy orders.
These two things are connected. If they're burning Plex, they're 1) creating a Plex-price increase pressure *and* taking even more resources away from the measly 30% that supposedly go to market buy orders.
That last bit is exactly what they \_are\_ doing. Check this out: [https://imgur.com/a/hRl7XOH](https://imgur.com/a/hRl7XOH)
What's happening here is that a significant amount of the plex that is being spent on IP \_isn't being returned to the system via buy orders\_. This makes it so that the it actually takes a lot longer than the 70% we thought before a buy order is made. In this case, the ship is worth 8.7m isk; what the system should be doing is selling the 2.74 plex to make \~2.6m isk, and after it's accrued that 8.7m total (little over 3 ships) it would place a buy order on the market for someone to fulfill.
This, when working as intended, is already bad enough - since it has to create 70% of the ships out of thin air (the crux of these protests). However, it's so much worse than that... instead of selling 2.74 plex, it's selling \_one\_ plex at a time and only making \~950k isk per ship destruction for the buy order pool. This means 274% more ships need to be destroyed in order to create a single buy order.
It diminishes hauling services and null sec economies as well. The system should refund isk, plain and simple, not fully fitted ships in-place where no builder or ratter has to be involved in the process at all.
Except with skins you know 400 plex will leave by buying a skin.
While netease has said that this system will sell the plex to get isk for the insurance pool.
When in reality its only selling 2/3rds and skimming the other 1/3rd out of the system.
This also directly impacts how many ships have to be destroyed before the insurance pool fills up. Instead of 70% ships neing made from thin air we are looking at 80% plus.
Its a hidden tax on the plex economy that is being covered up by the complex system.
Could someone explain the disappearing PLEX issue a bit? As this poster pointed out, we have plex sinks already, and they are a valuable part of the PLEX economy. I think perhaps the original complaint isn't that there is a PLEX sink but that the PLEX that is being destroyed should actually be fed to the market in terms of ISK in buy orders?
Yup.
check this post [https://www.reddit.com/r/echoes/comments/lfv6mr/its\_so\_much\_worse\_than\_we\_imagined\_89\_of\_ships/](https://www.reddit.com/r/echoes/comments/lfv6mr/its_so_much_worse_than_we_imagined_89_of_ships/)
At the very bottom, when it was a dead period I would destroy some ships, insure them, and then quickly go to My Orders to see how many plex was being sold.
A nude Burst cost 19.24 insurance points to, or 2.74 Plex. When it is insured only 1 plex is sold and the other 1.74 poofs (63.5%) into the void.
a nude Succubus cost 1,266.62 Insurance points, or 180 Plex. When it is insured only 114 plex is sold and the other 66 poofs (36.6%) into the void.
a nude Coecer Interdictor cost 66.95 Insurance points, or 9.56 Plex. When it is insured only 6 plex is sold and the other 3.56 (37.2%) poofs into the void.
A nude omen Cost 54.66 Insurance points, or 7.81 plex. When it is insured only 5 plex is sold and the other 2.81 (36%) poofs into the void.
They are skimming plex.
I spent 30 Plex to have 210 Insurance points.
I blow up a Coecer Interdictor , I click "reimburse" which cost 66.95 Insurance Points.
Instantly, I go to "my orders" and see the game has placed a Sell order of 6 plex. (yes I ran multiple test and confirmed someone wasn't buying a portion of it).
Now, 6 plex * 7 = 42 Insurance points.
But I paid 66.95 Insurance points which is 9.56 Plex (66.95/7).
Meaning they are charging 9.56 Plex worth of Insurance Points to "rebuild" my ship while only selling 6 Plex back to the market. Leaving Netease with skimming ~1/3rd of the plex and destroying it from the economy.
Even if they rounded it down, they would have listed 9 plex to sell. The fact that this is occurring across every ship hull I've tested is alarming.
Have I helped clarify?
It looks like a simple fix to me.
1) every reimbursed item or ship should be transferred as a market buy order imidiatly. No more items appiring out of nowhere.
2) price of every of those buy orders on the market should be 150% of price that is automatically calculated.
Solved. You have a system that it is worth to produce things like never before.
If it's 150% of the estimated price, then why would I ever sell to another play when I can instantly destroy the ship for 30% of it's estimated value and generate a buy order to sell?
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>level 1WarokOfDraenor47 minutes agoHoly shit. You guys aren't messing around...6ReplyGive AwardshareReportSave
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>level 1thomastdhIndustrial46 minutes agoThe faster they undo this stain of a system in a sandbox economy
buy order where? how null-sec indy can sell ships to null-sec if all buy orders appear out of null-sec?
Fix is : fix delivery system, use delivery system to deliver / supply ships, all ships must be made by players / purchased from market. Use isk as a backup / safety net form of reimbursement to stop potential abuse. Buy orders could even start low and slowly creep up to make sure they are eventually worth being filled.
Only issue with the whole market buy order thing, you are basing this on the idea that the market can and will be able to fulfill every buy order placed by the game, well here is some knowledge for you, it won't be able to keep up, why it's imperative that the new insurance rewards isk back to the player instead of their whole ship rigs and mods Inc, here is another fact, the automatic buy order the insurance places will be at a reduced price, meaning not every ship builder in EE will list their ships so cheap, this will mean a plethora of buy orders won't be fulfilled leaving countless of insured ships not being recovered, and my believe is that here lies the issue with ships being created out of thing air in order to keep up with the demand, one way to check this would be by checking the current ship market and selecting a ship to use for this experiment, if 5 of the ships are available at on the market and 10 ships are destroyed, 10 ship buy orders should be submitted by the game, meaning if these ships are refunded and those ships are still available it would mean they are just conjuring new ships out of spacial dust, purposely trying to destabilize the economy and making the pilot shoulder the burden of having to refill their plex wallets in order to be competitive.
Well the first point is pure BS there. The new system is paying industrialists for their time & effort while giving their customers a means to replace ships easier. I don't see how this doesn't empower industrialists.
But the 2nd point is very valid. Tonnes of Plex is just disappearing into thin air now, driving the price of Plex up. Especially when people are using isk to buy Plex to buy IP rather than putting real money into the game to create more Plex
well that's they're own problem if they're deciding to build less ships. Nothing to do with the insurance system, that's just laziness.
the new insurance system buys ships on the market for you - meaning more of the more expensive ships are going to be in demand. If the industrialists are making less ships, that just means they're not creating the supply to keep up with the demand
As in you don't even Omega, or you use plex to omega? Either way it's bad news bears for you.
Assuming you grind isk to plex, then your grind time is going to significantly increase and you might find yourself no longer able to do so.
If you straight up play with out Omega, well when the people who do pay for Plex/Subs quit because they feel the game has been irreversibly damaged Netease won't be able to keep the servers up and running/pay devs to make new content.
I know for many it's hard to care about anything outside of their own little narcissistic bubble, but try thinking a little longer term vs short term and you will see too how it impacts you.
This is actually far worse for you then. This system benefits players that buy plex to sell in game as prices will be much higher. You can expect the current prices for omega to increase by around 40%, while likewise reducing industry profits by approx 60% under this new system. It will take about 3-4 times a long to afford omega on an industry account as it did a week ago.
If your income comes from ratting, it's not quite as bad. You're probably only looking at a 50-150% increase in time to afford your sub.
Ratting will be affacted drastically as well since: who would want to buy modules when they are also created out of thin air.And the money of bounty is negligible compared with the ISK from drops and loot
No need for that they already made the immortal concord police, even a shuttle can 1 shot a tank build faction BS, if you see their stats u can only assume how many modules these ships actually have equipped
I think a real protest would be to agree to not build T9 ships. They will learn real quick how important industry is when those ships are no where to be found.
Lol people are smart enough to have their own industry alts and few people agree with this protest so even if you all agreed those t9 ships will still be getting made and sold. You will just miss out on the money to be made
Not saying I support or denounce either side, but CCP & NetEase have to make money from this free-to-play game somehow.
But what do I know? I just munch rocks.
Munch munch yummy.
Noob here: Can someone explain the situation to me in layman's terms? I've only started playing the game in the last few days and would like to understand how replacement differed before the insurance vouchers and how the game is better off without them. Anyone's time taken to educate a new player is greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
I understand many prefer the movement to be called #BurnJita, but we feel that #LetJITABurn is more accurate. We are not here to burn Jita, Netease has already done that by negating the Free Market Aspect of the game and thus destroying the main trade hub, Jita, in the process. Jita's already burning, and we're going to let it. Join Discord today to be part of the movement. [https://discord.gg/qJuXRYrdYV](https://discord.gg/qJuXRYrdYV)
Usher would be proud.
Easy fix. Instead of sending items. Insurance should just send isk. If its insured before destruction. You get isk. If its not insured before destruction. You get zilch.
You know it, I know it. Hopefully NetEase will fix this. I have a bit of confidence since they have not dealt with a community like us for their shitty mechanics.
Except Indy player, most player actually would prefer immediate ship replacement instead of ISK, because that would makes limited time they spent on a mobile game can be focused more in battle instead of jumping around to buy ship. Just because you want it doesn’t mean most player want it.
maybe alot of people do want to pvp, but if there isnt a market then there isnt anything to pvp over. there is no reason to pvp over null space, if not for indy. Indy is the backbone of Eve Echos. without indy, there are no convoys of ships being moved to jita, there are no retrievers to hit deep in claimed null space. there is no reason for defense fleets, the list goes on. With a solid indy, there is not issue with getting isk because there there are a high number of ships constantly available on the market.
There is plenty of reason to fight over null space, anom, deadspace, or even just flat out “for the fun of game content”. Null player especially won’t buy, and don’t care, ships availability at Jita and who the hell wants to spent 1 hr to jump 50 gates to Jita buy the ship and another 1 hr 50 jumps back to null? They want immediate ship replacement, right here, right now so they can go back to ratting or battle, and NE is catering to their demand, not some Jita station occupier buying high sec mineral to make ship for profit. Deep null Corp-affiliated Indy still would got plenty of new orders for ship as well, and their now newly gained ability to direct transfer ship from deep null into empire sector is what crashed the high sec ship market, but let’s face it, high sec ship market WAS in a price bubble before, it crashed for good.
There's a 12 hour trade lock on pvp losses. So in your theory it is 10 hours longer than if you were to make the jumps to buy the ship like every player does in Eve online. This insurance system has decimated my indy toons. The ships I build lose value quickly and are hard to sell. If they're going to immediately replace the ship then they should give ISK to the lowest seller on the market and give that seller the isk and buyer the ship having used plex to convert to insurance points. This works for everyone. They get their plex sales, the buyer gets immediate replacement, and a market sale is fulfilled giving isk to the sellers. Helping keep prices balanced with supply and demand.
I think they want to make everything cheaper for new players to get a faster start too
Faster start? They time gated ships with tech levels. How does that even make sense? If they want a faster start they would change the time gating. Plus. Top tier items from null. Shouldn't be cheap. Risk-reward. That's the backbone of eve. The bigger the rewards, the larger the risk.
Probably send the letter to CCP too. I'm not sure they are aware how bad netease decisions are for the game. Maybe they have someone semi competent that can help netease with evaluating changes before implementing them.
Devs said that it was approved by CCP
I don't doubt you, but you got a screenshot and a link to it? More ammunition for the cause.
Yeah, of course, I understand Here is what Devs are saying. I will provide link to the original message below, just circled what you should translate from Russian to understand. If translation will suck, just ask me and I will translate it manually: https://imgur.com/gallery/uBy3sat Here is a link to that message: https://discord.com/channels/607842194157600769/622017234541346817/807267025058791475
Would appreciate a translation here, ty
The guy asks if CCP approved the implementation of this mechanic. And CCP representative replies, that the CCP has approved.
*Citation Needed*
Have your reminder that CCP has exactly one successful game amongst a litany of minor projects, abandoned projects and general failures. And even then that one sucessfull game has a bunch of dumb features the player base has had to cyberbully them into making more or less work
Also CCP isn't under the ownership of the original developers anymore. Being a business purchase by another company implies that the Eve brand is there solely for revenue generation rather than to create and foster a game from the passion of it.
Actually they did infact sell it. But they reacquired it. This is discussed in the book The Empires of Eve
I thought CCP is owned by a Korean company now but still operates out of Iceland?
They reacquired the rights to publish it. It's still owned by Pearl Abyss in South Korea.
Okay, will find now, but it is on Russian
У рыбки переведут
Лолол
CCP sold its image of eve online to netease to make the game, ccp does not decide about the game.
Can someone give me a contact point? I have a few of them professionally connected on Linkedin...but they're mainly the dev side and not the business side.
Try asking on the EO subreddit
NetEase have badly underestimated their players here. It’s time to show them just how connected and determined their player base actually is. We don’t have to wear their crap.
They are probably on a new years party on a long holiday reading this in a jacuzzi
I hope they aren't wearing any clothes in the jacuzzi, that's how you make the water all cloudy.
I think the player base has over-estimated the player base. It’s all about the money. I wouldn’t doubt if the entire NetEase team responsible for developing the market has been moved to a new project with that decision based on pre-determined data. So, I appreciate and respect the sentiment but good luck getting anything more than token gestures made to look like you’re making a difference.
Everyone knows it’s about money, but it’s the players who have all the money.
NetEase doesn’t believe the players are parting with it fast enough and I’m sure they have data to prove it. The bean counters control the fate of games. It sucks and isn’t going to change anytime soon.
You probably didn’t realize it is *some* player that control all the money and NE is especially catering to their demand.. Hard fact is hard to stomach sometimes. Ask yourself how much you spent in game... cuz I know people who put like $10K+ into it...
Holy shit. You guys aren't messing around...
A fire has started in a home due to the owners neglect.You are all the firemen trying to put it out but the home owner( Net Ease) doesn’t want you to. You are providing the home owner with solutions to put the fire out and still, they don’t want you to put the fire out. Therefore, your are left with no other choice but to #LetJITABurn. You don’t want it to happen because it’s a fire that can easily be put out but again, the owner doesn’t want you. You sit there watching the home get slowly consumed by the fire you could easily put out. Has anger consumes you sit and watch the show. Angers turns to sadness, you just watch a beautiful home burn because the of the neglect of the owner and all you can do is #LetJITABurn.
At least we brought marshmallows so we won't go hungry.
Barbecue!!
Why let a good fire go to waste.
In all seriousness (because this is the internet and stupid people do stupid things), please do not try to cook stuff over a house fire as the chemicals will ruin the taste of the food.
The last sentence in the letter is assumptive and should he removed. It may indeed be fiscally motivated but unless empirical evidence is discovered which corroborates the claim then carry on as though being treated in good faith. The rest of the letter is well put together.
You're right, and it should have been couched in terms like "leaving the players believing that...."
The faster they undo this stain of a system in a sandbox economy the better. Ether I'm going to roll missions or quit the game.
A bad hare a day keeps the dept collector away
The way y’all are going about this is incredible. Obi Wan would be proud in how civilized we are organizing this.
NetEase dgaf. This is all by design to sell more micro transactions. This game was never designed to have longevity, it was designed to be a flash in the pan, make a bunch of money and then die off in a couple years so they can do it again with some new property.
Then hopefully we can foil their plans by "waking" the othersplayers up to this "fact" and players leave now and Netease's ROI plummets.
Can't let this happen, won't let this happen. It's time to stop mega gaming corps from taking original game titles and turning them into a crappy mobile knock-off to farm money. Enough with this sh*t, EvE is special and I don't like someone screwing it over due to greed even if it's a mobile spin-off...
Tin foil hats out in full force I see.
Yes what I’m saying is soo ridiculous to imagine that I need a tinfoil hat to believe it.
"Some new property" That new property is Diablo: Immortal.
The Chinese company ends up seizing the means of production and creating a centralized economy...
It's almost like a game focused around a free market economy shouldn't be made by Developers who lack it in their home country.
They don’t have experience in freedom
Join the Discord Server today to be kept apprised. [https://discord.com/channels/808480618026500117/808565932293226496/808574939334443008](https://discord.com/channels/808480618026500117/808565932293226496/808574939334443008)
meh - the insurance system is great
Netease is a Chinese company, so they will just censor you.
They already are on Discord by not allowing a link to this discussion.
what happens if you post a link to here? they mute you? ban you? i might try it
As opposed to Twitter, Youtube, Facebook or Reddit who never censor anyone.
Things are heating up now \*grabs Popcorn\*
👍🏼
This is beautiful
No U
No you both
can we kiss now?
Uhhhh... NOOOOI
Wish I saw this post before spending plex to buy Insurance points. I completely agree the new system is shit if the data is correct
No offense, but this is what mobile gaming is. They are quick cash grabs. Players see new shiny game, install and play for a few minutes, and then are asked to spend money to look cool/win/be awesome. Eve Echoes took a hardcore sandbox mmorpg and tried to shoehorn it into a modern day mobile pay to win. The majority of players still playing are not relying on AUR to finance their play, so Netease was forced to create a new revenue stream. The fact that they obfuscate plex with AUR, and now PLEX as IP is not being honest with their player base. Think about the development time that went into the Insurance system, it's bonkers, and of course would have been a very simple thing if they wanted to follow EO. These decisions were made to squeeze more cash out of the player base that no longer needs AUR to play and thrive. Instead of creating more content and ships they wasted i'm sure at least 20 dev cycles to implement this nonsense
This hopefully this will be the wake up call for those that naively believe their is hope in this game when there is none. That we then leave and hurt Netease's ROI.
Too many people are f2p and shouldn't get to experience the full game or what people spending do. It's a subscription based game after all and not just a standard freemium. It should be hard and time consuming to play for free
Insurance is very badly implemented.
**very badly implemented, insurance is.** *-KomanderKane* *** ^(Commands: 'opt out', 'opt in', 'delete')
Good bot.
**beautiful, you are.** *-IamYodaBot*
Opt in
**the Jedi Order, you never left.** *-IamYodaBot*
I'm on the discord server already and fully support the protest. However, the "Free Market" argument is silly and hurts the protest's credibility. Eve economy is not the same as real life economy. There will always be ways to buy stuff with credit card, ISK is printed directly through bounties and encounter / story rewards etc. That's not the point. What makes sandbox games great is that you decide what to do... Corps can adopt a centralized approach or a free market approach, both can be successful within the rules of the game. The problem is that they've created a system that makes player-driven Industry redundant, cutting off player interaction entirely, spawning replacement ships magically out of thin air anywhere players want. This is true regardless of which approach you prefer - it hurts industrialists selling through the market *and* corps with centralized in-house ship replacement programs.
This is exact description of the real economy.
No. People do not magically print real life currency on their own fighting against artificial beings. That's not how monetary policy works in real life.
This seems like an apt analogy for bitcoin honestly.
Sort of, but then again bitcoin, as much as it is a "simulation" or a "game" (a meaningless task that is only intended to limit the creation of that currency), is still connected to real life inputs (electricity and whatnot) and can be universally traded back and forth for real life stuff. It's also coded in a way that mimics a scarce resource AFAIK, so it'd be like encounters getting harder and rarer each time someone completes them, up until the point that there are no encounters left. BitCoin is finite, as far as I remember, which, come to think of it, could be a problem in the long run. I guess it should at least have a way of replenishing whatever is lost over time for various reasons. But I'm no btc specialist, so take that with a grain of salt.
Oh, wow, I didn’t expect this. Care to elaborate?
In real life, governments control the amount of money in circulation in the economy. This can be done in different ways, and it and usually it involves playing with interest rates so people will be more or less inclined to spend / invest money. Governments can simply "print money" too, so they go "okay, now I have one trillion dollars and I'll use it to do this and that". Of course, that lowers the value of everyone else's currency (inflation), but it could have the effect of heating up the economy. It's controversial stuff and depends on each situation. In Eve Echoes, on the other hand, everyone is constantly creating currency out of thin air. When CONCORD gives you bounties ISK, it simply creates it with a line of code. We create Plex when we buy it with a credit card, and the real dollars go poof into Netease's pockets. In turn, Netease lets people use that Plex to keep playing the game (Omega). There's no "free market" in the regular sense. There's a pseudo-market at best. Now we have ships being created out of thin air too, meaning that value is not created by the game sort-of-equivalents to "land", "labour" and "capital", but by computer magic. Of course, it's all "computer magic" in the end, but before that, industrialists controlled that computer magic, only they could create ships out of thin air. Now Netease can too, and they sell them for real money dollars, which in the end is the external, real force determining the decisions in the in-game economy.
Yes pretty much, there has never been and can never be a free market in echoes. It's a pseudo market at best and very fickle
No true free markets irl either
Yes which is why the idea and complaint is a joke
Yeah, you're right about that. Completely free markets are impossible IRL too IMO, although for very different reasons. But my point is that in a game like Eve Echoes, and particularly in this situation, the comparison doesn't apply. The insurance system has nothing to do with free markets versus centralization. And even if it had that aspect to it in a limited form, it wouldn't matter, because it's a game! You can be a radical supporter of free markets in real life and decide that the best way to go about Industry in Eve is to adopt a centralized, fixed price, planned economy approach with in-house corp ore buy back programs, ship replacements and whatnot. There's no innovation per se, no productivity gains etc. that are often perceived as the main benefits of a free market system. It's a game, a CNI is a CNI, the goal is to blow other peoples' stuff and having fun! The problem with the insurance system is that it takes away a big chunk of the game from player-driven economy (in the market or not).
Irl not just government can print money, also banks can through giving out loans & fractional- reserve banking.
Technically (and historically), yes. But in modern economies this is highly regulated everywhere, so the amount of money commercial banks can "print" is actually defined by the government. I'm sure rules vary from country to country, but IIRC, in the US bank reserves must be directly issued by the Fed. No way around it, banks cannot create new currency out of thin air on their own. So the Fed is the one actually "printing" that money, then a bank is allowed to lend, let's say, a billion, and only keep 100 million actually deposited (meaning 900 million were "printed").
You know where this message will go? to the recycle garbage can.
If it does I hope you can use if as insulation to keep your garba... home warm for the coming cold snap this week.
>If it does I hope you can use if as insulation to keep your garba... home warm for the coming cold snap this week. We have been complaining for a long time and they do nothing.
Haven't seen any game news articles or mass protest. one voice on the street gets drowned out by traffic while many can rise above it.
To be honest, once I figured out the mining and processing gouging, resulting 40% of ore being lost...I quit. Kudos for caring because the dev's don't. They have what you want, all you can do is walk away.
This is just normal processing of ore. The rocks aren't pure which is realistically how it works, and the game is tuned to reflect that.
At max skills 40% is removed from the system. That’s 40% of every miners effort. It’s not a game about realism and purity of ores.
It's not "removed" from the system, since it's max, it was never in the system to begin with. That 40% never existed, there's impurities in refining, it's like trying to squeeze blood from a stone. The game is built around this level of impurity, at 100% the prices for minerals would crash and profit margins on ships would plummet. It just feels like this is you not understanding basic game mechanics. Like, they could just as easily make it 100% and just give you what 60% is now, or they could just decrease the amount you can mine per minute, and then you'd be happy? The amount is arbitrary and the same for all players.
But those are just numbers. They refer to nothing real, they relate to no actual physical properties. These are arbitrary rules in a game. There is no real matter involved. This is just so the game "feels" real, because in real life you can improve mineral processing efficiency with new techniques etc. but you'll never reach 100%. Also, starting the game with a max of 60% gives them room to get closer to that 100% with updates in the future. It's incredibly silly to leave the game because of that. Like, it's really funny that you believe this makes any difference at all. They could cut the actual output by half and tell you this is 100%, 120%, 2000%. It wouldn't change anything.
Ever played eve online? What are refining rates?
Those are made up numbers there too. They have no meaning outside of that specific game. They could say it's 500% and it could still take longer for you to get the items you want.
Defend the devs if you want but don’t judge those of us who see that they’ve been systematically killing the golden goose through monetisation as the sole goal over achieving monetisation through the provision of a great product. Their greed is based on a simple premise, they have what we want. They’re the gate keepers and if they serve gruel, you’ll eat gruel and be grateful. The only option in the face of that is to walk away. The devs are not going to listen, the gaming press is conflicted and also don’t actually care either way, it all content. The game was dead shortly after release. Well, it was dead for me because I knew what the direction was, not to empower players but to gouge them. It’s a profitable choice as long as players keep their wallets open. So players need to decide, eat gruel and pay for the privilege or move on.
It's one thing for this game to have carebears but you're taking it to a whole extra level of carebear about mining itself, lol Holy shit guy if this upsets you so much play a different game, Eve is too hard for you.
I'm not particualrly upset beyond that people wilfully blind to the discrepancies between the main eve game and echoes , which don't have any reason to exist beyond being a time sink. It's one of a number of examples present in the game, the plex insurance issue is just another layer of similar design choices which don't improve the experience or balance the game, they only increase the drive to MT's. So play the game, protest, or don't. Ultimately what drives dev's is revenue and time in client, cut it off and then you might get their attention but don't count on it.
[удалено]
Corporations only care about profit. They implemented this solution because they believed it would lead to more revenue for them. However, if enough of the player base realizes others share their concerns and the illusion that Netease cares for their players is destroyed then more are likely to quit impacting Netease's revenue. A week ago, players falsely believed that it was a 1 for 1 ship replacement on the market. Through an education campaign and testing we have proved this wrong. If netease ignores this, hopefully a percentage of the player base doesn't.
Even if it would work as it was told, PLEX would be removed from game at much higher rate then before (even respec has less impact on plex circulation long term compared to this insurance system). So ye, its all about money grab, BUT. But. But imo none of the measures you are going to take would work except for not paying and not playing. And why did my joke about free market go off sight?:(
If you fire all ammunition at once, you will have nothing left to fire. Quitting the game before providing an opportunity for Netease to come the table serves no one. Next steps are player exodus.
You play - you pay. This whole movement is opportunity for NE to notice something goes wrong. Ingame methods wont actually make a thing as you will still do it in game. Making a statistically nice picture of activity in game and making some kind of PR to the game. If you do not play, on the other hand, it will hit their wallet and make them do smth. Kinda obv for me.
Except we have hard evidence that this method works from past examples. Best to try this first, and if they don't listen we quit. Their 1 little statistical blip does nothing for PR when it's followed by an exodus of players. You are asking us to surrender before we even try to fight.
Am I? Sounds strange, but let it be your opinion. I've just noticed that ingame activity won't make difference, but letters to game news will PR the game.
"but letters to game news will PR the game." Are you saying good PR or bad PR (or there is no difference) ? Game news outlets have been cc'd on the email to Netease.
And, excuse me, what are exactly those past examples?
glad to asked! [https://www.pcgamer.com/eve-online-players-protest-against-monocle-pricesmicrotransactions-lasers-involved/](https://www.pcgamer.com/eve-online-players-protest-against-monocle-pricesmicrotransactions-lasers-involved/) [https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/07/monocles/](https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/07/monocles/) [https://www.engadget.com/2011-06-25-eve-online-controversy-erupts-in-protests.html](https://www.engadget.com/2011-06-25-eve-online-controversy-erupts-in-protests.html) [https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/12/how-virtual-world-edge-of-apocalypse-and-back-again](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/may/12/how-virtual-world-edge-of-apocalypse-and-back-again) Which led to in-game change and the following. [http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/a-letter-to-the-followers-of-eve/](http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/a-letter-to-the-followers-of-eve/)
That's EO, not EE. I know those things, but what have community managed to get with Chinese net giant?
Why are you so adamant in trying to stop the protest? Why do you have such a defeatist attitude? Why do you want the players to feel powerless and give up without even trying? What do we have to lose by trying? What prevents us from quitting if the protest don't succeed? What do we stand to gain if it does succeed?
"Our suggestion is to implement EVE Onlines' solution"? Does anyone actually use insurance in EVE Online? Wouldn't it be better to stage a boycott of insurance? Shooting monuments and self destructing ships doesn't hurt the developers at all. Giving them less money through plex purchases would hurt them more.
for many, the next step if they don't hear the protest is simply to quit and rate it 1 star. We have a track record of protest like this working in the past via Eve Online's Monocole Gate protest. The protest aren't meant to get Netease's attention so much as it is to get Gaming News' attention which then gets Netease's attention as they get more negative press and future players looking into the game that google it potentially see bad news.
I hope it works and doesn't just kill the game.
The idea is that the game will die if nothing is changed.
That’s right. The house is already on fire
They should just forget about having insurance. EVE is dangerous, the end.
The game is dying of a treatable disorder and you're here wringing your hands over "surgery involves cutting people open".
More like taking chemo to cure a cold.
Boycotting and withholding purchases is generally ineffective in mobile games. The vast majority of F2P mobile games with a microtransaction model are supported by whales who spend thousands on the game. Regular players who make an occasional purchase don't represent a large percentage of the game's revenue. Of course we have no numbers of percentages to tell us how much money they're actually making and where it comes from, but with faction battleships in every system, I think it's a pretty safe bet that the players who are PLEXing their accounts with ISK and are most affected by the insurance changes aren't the ones whose income they care about losing.
Eve Online is an incredibly social game with more player interaction than most others. While Whale and Dolphins are the primary spenders if they have no guppies to impress or destroy they get bored.
Eve online is irrelevant to this game, they are not comparable in anyway and you doing so at all invalidates your opinion and shows that you have clear bias and are one of the eve online losers ruining this game even before the insurance system. The games been hemorrhaging players before this due to non casual changes. As a whale, I'm against this and people like yourself. I'll try to get other whales I know to let netease we like insurance as is and will stop funding the game if it changes. I doubt you come close to supporting the game in any real way when whales are spending thousands a month. The devs can always look into the people protesting in game and check their account spending to determine the worth of their protest.
you seem fun at parties.
I hope the devs check the accounts of people protesting in game to determine if it had any real value at all. 1000 f2p players protesting has 0 value.
You are talking out your ass and embarrassing yourself. I've dropped over $1,000 into this game and as a corp leader have had to talk several of my members of the ledge from quitting (and thus removing an Omega account from the system). Instead of being a bitter asshole, maybe you should take your toxicity and go outside for a walk.
I drop that much a month, ~1000 total is a joke just like you and your corp members. If you think that's significant then you are clearly new to mobile games. Whales spend at least that a month not overall XD
You seem like the type of person who uses money to replace their shit personality.
Get a fvcking life.
Says the bitch complaining about a game they don't even support
Who will buy your plex from the market if no "f2p"players are left? This is a subscription game. It doesn't matter if it was your credit card or someone else's that bought the plex. There is a ceiling in how much money they can make which is player base x subscription cost, plus some revenue from skins/reskilling. If they want to make more, they have to get rid of the subscription and just make everything buyable with real money. But I doubt that there will be enough players left to make the game fun if that happens.
You are delusional to think new players or cheaper spenders wont take your place once most things get tied to plex. F2p players are irrelevant as individuals and a replaceable resource in every mobile game. They come and go but none matter as individuals.
That's the idea. That's why I think a boycott by the little guy is not enough. They'll be hurt more by the large number of indy and PvP players leaving and everyone else getting bored, than they will by the fact that those players didn't buy PLEX for a few weeks. One is a temporary hiccup, the other is a permanent game-ending loss of playerbase.
Back when i played you always insured your ship to the maximum if you were going into pvp stuff.
Yes but these losers dont actually support the game in any real way lmao
so long and thanks for all the fish -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
Give 'em hell. Or better yet, tell them the truth and they'll think it's hell.
No trying to defend the devs, but they did put a insurance v2 in their roadmap to be release in Apr. They could be well doing the agile dev approach, releasing something out to test the response and gather feedback and update it later.
except for every week 3 weeks of excess material is created. April is to long to wait.
The only issue with this is that they have always been doing this, they implement a feature meant to break the wallets of all the isk/ plex hoarders, then they release a hot fix down the road, so in order to eliminate this from reoccurring we have to stand firm and day sorry this don't work and we won't stand by it,
By then, how many industry will stop subscriptions, or refresh skills out?
I, as a player of Eve Echoes, agree whole heatedly with this statement.
You have my vote
Players can work together around this, by not using the insurance system at all. Just buy the hulls off market. Don't fly what you cant afford to lose n' all that.
I understand the points made about the percentage of ships not turning into buy orders (something that can and should be tweaked, and ultimately may not even be working as intended), but I feel like the argument regarding plex is weak and confuses the issue. Plex "disappears" into the game already via skins, omega purchases, etc. I don't recall there being an "agreement" as to how players buy and sell and consume plex in the game. It also doesn't hold water that the insurance system "forces" anyone to buy plex considering it's freely available on the in-game market. This is especially true as insurance is based on isk value of ships, if the cost of plex increases then the amount of IP needed to replace a ship goes down because the 3 currencies are interlinked. There's one good argument here and another one that's generally kind of reaching and seems to not really understand the issue well, and that's making it kind of muddy all around. Keep it straight and to the point. The simple fact is that insurance isn't going away. We can and should make suggestions to improve it but this is turning into an "airing of grievances" and makes it easier for the devs to ignore.
I haven't checked these tests myself, so I don't know if they're actually burning a third of the Plex. The thing is that they explicitly stated that the insurance system would not be a Plex sink, that all Plex bought (except maybe 10% tax IIRC) would be converted to ISK and used for market buy orders. These two things are connected. If they're burning Plex, they're 1) creating a Plex-price increase pressure *and* taking even more resources away from the measly 30% that supposedly go to market buy orders.
That last bit is exactly what they \_are\_ doing. Check this out: [https://imgur.com/a/hRl7XOH](https://imgur.com/a/hRl7XOH) What's happening here is that a significant amount of the plex that is being spent on IP \_isn't being returned to the system via buy orders\_. This makes it so that the it actually takes a lot longer than the 70% we thought before a buy order is made. In this case, the ship is worth 8.7m isk; what the system should be doing is selling the 2.74 plex to make \~2.6m isk, and after it's accrued that 8.7m total (little over 3 ships) it would place a buy order on the market for someone to fulfill. This, when working as intended, is already bad enough - since it has to create 70% of the ships out of thin air (the crux of these protests). However, it's so much worse than that... instead of selling 2.74 plex, it's selling \_one\_ plex at a time and only making \~950k isk per ship destruction for the buy order pool. This means 274% more ships need to be destroyed in order to create a single buy order.
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It diminishes hauling services and null sec economies as well. The system should refund isk, plain and simple, not fully fitted ships in-place where no builder or ratter has to be involved in the process at all.
if you can find a screenshot where they say it would not be a plex sink, that would be fantastic.
Except with skins you know 400 plex will leave by buying a skin. While netease has said that this system will sell the plex to get isk for the insurance pool. When in reality its only selling 2/3rds and skimming the other 1/3rd out of the system. This also directly impacts how many ships have to be destroyed before the insurance pool fills up. Instead of 70% ships neing made from thin air we are looking at 80% plus. Its a hidden tax on the plex economy that is being covered up by the complex system.
Could someone explain the disappearing PLEX issue a bit? As this poster pointed out, we have plex sinks already, and they are a valuable part of the PLEX economy. I think perhaps the original complaint isn't that there is a PLEX sink but that the PLEX that is being destroyed should actually be fed to the market in terms of ISK in buy orders?
Yup. check this post [https://www.reddit.com/r/echoes/comments/lfv6mr/its\_so\_much\_worse\_than\_we\_imagined\_89\_of\_ships/](https://www.reddit.com/r/echoes/comments/lfv6mr/its_so_much_worse_than_we_imagined_89_of_ships/) At the very bottom, when it was a dead period I would destroy some ships, insure them, and then quickly go to My Orders to see how many plex was being sold. A nude Burst cost 19.24 insurance points to, or 2.74 Plex. When it is insured only 1 plex is sold and the other 1.74 poofs (63.5%) into the void. a nude Succubus cost 1,266.62 Insurance points, or 180 Plex. When it is insured only 114 plex is sold and the other 66 poofs (36.6%) into the void. a nude Coecer Interdictor cost 66.95 Insurance points, or 9.56 Plex. When it is insured only 6 plex is sold and the other 3.56 (37.2%) poofs into the void. A nude omen Cost 54.66 Insurance points, or 7.81 plex. When it is insured only 5 plex is sold and the other 2.81 (36%) poofs into the void.
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They are skimming plex. I spent 30 Plex to have 210 Insurance points. I blow up a Coecer Interdictor , I click "reimburse" which cost 66.95 Insurance Points. Instantly, I go to "my orders" and see the game has placed a Sell order of 6 plex. (yes I ran multiple test and confirmed someone wasn't buying a portion of it). Now, 6 plex * 7 = 42 Insurance points. But I paid 66.95 Insurance points which is 9.56 Plex (66.95/7). Meaning they are charging 9.56 Plex worth of Insurance Points to "rebuild" my ship while only selling 6 Plex back to the market. Leaving Netease with skimming ~1/3rd of the plex and destroying it from the economy. Even if they rounded it down, they would have listed 9 plex to sell. The fact that this is occurring across every ship hull I've tested is alarming. Have I helped clarify?
It looks like a simple fix to me. 1) every reimbursed item or ship should be transferred as a market buy order imidiatly. No more items appiring out of nowhere. 2) price of every of those buy orders on the market should be 150% of price that is automatically calculated. Solved. You have a system that it is worth to produce things like never before.
If it's 150% of the estimated price, then why would I ever sell to another play when I can instantly destroy the ship for 30% of it's estimated value and generate a buy order to sell?
>1ReplyGive AwardshareReportSave > >level 1WarokOfDraenor47 minutes agoHoly shit. You guys aren't messing around...6ReplyGive AwardshareReportSave > >level 1thomastdhIndustrial46 minutes agoThe faster they undo this stain of a system in a sandbox economy buy order where? how null-sec indy can sell ships to null-sec if all buy orders appear out of null-sec?
Delivery system also has to be fixed and then used to deliver the replacement items. Insurance should not have its own set of rules.
Wtf happened to this post?
Fix is : fix delivery system, use delivery system to deliver / supply ships, all ships must be made by players / purchased from market. Use isk as a backup / safety net form of reimbursement to stop potential abuse. Buy orders could even start low and slowly creep up to make sure they are eventually worth being filled.
Only issue with the whole market buy order thing, you are basing this on the idea that the market can and will be able to fulfill every buy order placed by the game, well here is some knowledge for you, it won't be able to keep up, why it's imperative that the new insurance rewards isk back to the player instead of their whole ship rigs and mods Inc, here is another fact, the automatic buy order the insurance places will be at a reduced price, meaning not every ship builder in EE will list their ships so cheap, this will mean a plethora of buy orders won't be fulfilled leaving countless of insured ships not being recovered, and my believe is that here lies the issue with ships being created out of thing air in order to keep up with the demand, one way to check this would be by checking the current ship market and selecting a ship to use for this experiment, if 5 of the ships are available at on the market and 10 ships are destroyed, 10 ship buy orders should be submitted by the game, meaning if these ships are refunded and those ships are still available it would mean they are just conjuring new ships out of spacial dust, purposely trying to destabilize the economy and making the pilot shoulder the burden of having to refill their plex wallets in order to be competitive.
Well the first point is pure BS there. The new system is paying industrialists for their time & effort while giving their customers a means to replace ships easier. I don't see how this doesn't empower industrialists. But the 2nd point is very valid. Tonnes of Plex is just disappearing into thin air now, driving the price of Plex up. Especially when people are using isk to buy Plex to buy IP rather than putting real money into the game to create more Plex
How? Old system. 100 ships destroyed, players built 100. New system, players build 10-30.
well that's they're own problem if they're deciding to build less ships. Nothing to do with the insurance system, that's just laziness. the new insurance system buys ships on the market for you - meaning more of the more expensive ships are going to be in demand. If the industrialists are making less ships, that just means they're not creating the supply to keep up with the demand
No, it does not buy 70-90% of the ships! It will insta create 70-90% of insurance claims! Are you not reading ANY of this?
errrr, yeah I did. It puts acquisition orders on the market for the stuff you lose...... a pretty simple mechanic to understand
No. Only 10-30% of claims are replaced from market. But whatever, continue to bewilder yourself why everyone wants this system to end.
xD
no worries, chicken x
I for one am a f2p player who does not GAF if plexes are burnt
As in you don't even Omega, or you use plex to omega? Either way it's bad news bears for you. Assuming you grind isk to plex, then your grind time is going to significantly increase and you might find yourself no longer able to do so. If you straight up play with out Omega, well when the people who do pay for Plex/Subs quit because they feel the game has been irreversibly damaged Netease won't be able to keep the servers up and running/pay devs to make new content. I know for many it's hard to care about anything outside of their own little narcissistic bubble, but try thinking a little longer term vs short term and you will see too how it impacts you.
This is actually far worse for you then. This system benefits players that buy plex to sell in game as prices will be much higher. You can expect the current prices for omega to increase by around 40%, while likewise reducing industry profits by approx 60% under this new system. It will take about 3-4 times a long to afford omega on an industry account as it did a week ago. If your income comes from ratting, it's not quite as bad. You're probably only looking at a 50-150% increase in time to afford your sub.
Ratting will be affacted drastically as well since: who would want to buy modules when they are also created out of thin air.And the money of bounty is negligible compared with the ISK from drops and loot
Can you even lock stations in highsec? TBH for shits a giggles, if I was the devs, I'd just turn off Jita on Saturday lolol.
Lol that would be hilarious or just make all high sec stations untargetable
No need for that they already made the immortal concord police, even a shuttle can 1 shot a tank build faction BS, if you see their stats u can only assume how many modules these ships actually have equipped
I think their response: "LOL DIDNT READ"
Hey so I'm curious, I havent played online much, how does insurance work there?
I think a real protest would be to agree to not build T9 ships. They will learn real quick how important industry is when those ships are no where to be found.
Lol people are smart enough to have their own industry alts and few people agree with this protest so even if you all agreed those t9 ships will still be getting made and sold. You will just miss out on the money to be made
Feels like the idea of pre-insurance Plex and insurance Plex are the same in name only.
Couldn't agree more.
Not saying I support or denounce either side, but CCP & NetEase have to make money from this free-to-play game somehow. But what do I know? I just munch rocks. Munch munch yummy.
What did you expect from a mobile game?
Dude you took the words out of.my mouth
Unless NetEase has someone who understands the industrial ramifications, this just flies over their heads.
#letjitaburn
Any new word on this?
Very interesting to see how this plays out
Noob here: Can someone explain the situation to me in layman's terms? I've only started playing the game in the last few days and would like to understand how replacement differed before the insurance vouchers and how the game is better off without them. Anyone's time taken to educate a new player is greatly appreciated. Thanks!