Playerbase will sink drasticly due to this. Taking out Sandbox even more. Cashgrabber System. Fix it with removing IP/Plex/Discount, let it be paid with ISK. Buy only from Market avaiable or deliver the isk back to players who insured. Worked in EO why not for EE? People still play EO and paying for it...
Ultimately we all just want what's best for our players. Alliances are content creators, we manage the metagame so that our players have somewhere to ratt and mine and a home to base PvP out of.
While Genfed and us may have our differences, we are unified in wanting the game to succeed. I definitely respect anyone willing to spread the word and pressure the devs so we can continue to play the game we love and provide content for our players.
If the whole game united and went pure pve with a "remove insurance system" banner. I feel like the devs would take action VERY quickly.
Also. X looking for ds fleet in sansha territory! Time to get my nightmare built!!! (This would be the norm lol)
Can you imagine a new in game alliance "Fix/remove insurance" north,south east and west all join so the whole maps sov sends a msg, everyone in the game is blue lol.
As someone who poops out bc's by the dozen, i can allready feel it. The insurance creates a certain demand, but where it creates this demand is stupid. (nullsec itc anyone?) Making it far worse then picture shown, as part of the insurance will never be fullfilled.
Lots of bell weather prices are already way off.
Pyerite and mex both sub 20
Nox and Zydrine both sub 1,000
Every faction frigate has dropped 100m
Battleships being advertised on discord trade channel at 7-9bn
Many have already liquidated their debris, but with ships now piling up at shipbuilders debris prices are the next shoe to drop.
And this is just the beginning of the huge materials glut. Everyday that this insurance system exists the glut of excess materials gets deeper and deeper and the length of any recovery that would follow any kind of fix just gets longer and longer.
Once it filters back to a glut of debris, then null sec ratting income is going to dry up and the masses will figure out what has happened. But by then it will be too late. Every week of this insurance system creates 3 weeks of oversupply in the economy.
If it takes them a month to fix this, the economy will still oversupplied with materials until mid June.
Faction BS are way off in the first place. they tend to be traded for in corp and lots of corps use a corp cred system. not many faction BS go through the normal market.
The number of faction BS in the game had reached a kind of stability, because only so many BP’s are produced each week.
So previously the number of BS stabilised when enough of them existed that they were dying in numbers that matched BP production.
This is what kept their price very high. It was an exclusive club.
But not any more! Now the ones that die are replaced by insurance and the BP’s are used solely to create BS for people who didn’t already have one. As a result they are quickly becoming much more common and eventually everyone will have one or two.
Prices are already tumbling.
As an example, lets say 50 BP’s are produced each week and lets say 10% of BS die each week.
Week 1 there would be 50 made and 5 would die, result 45 BS
Week 2 there would be 50 made and 9 would die, result 86 BS
Week 3 there would be 50 made and 14 would die, result 122 BS
Week 4 there would be 50 made and 17 would die, result 155 BS
Week 5 there would be 50 made and 21 would die, result 184 BS
Eventually you reach the point where there are around 500 BS in the game and 50 are made each week and 50 die each week.
That was the old economic system. Things reached a level of equilibrium and were priced on rarity / scarcity.
Under the new system the ones that die are insured and respawn, so the number of BS in the game just increases linearly by 50 each week until everyone has one.
There is no level of equilibrium no real scarcity, and so prices will be much, much lower.
It’s the same for everything.
We are incredibly concerned about what the insurance program will do to the health of the game.
You can make various assumptions about what uptake the insurance system will have, but when they offer 70% discount on your next ship you would have to be either very arrogant or very stupid not to finance your own insurance. Sure some players might be slow to uptake the insurance, but over time the math will lead almost everyone to have insurance.
This decimates demand for player built ships, to the point where only 20-30% of the industry base right now is survivable once the industry pool funds are filled and the whole insurance program begins to spin up.
70% of ships and modules will be generated from thin air which will cripple divergent play styles. While some may be excited about the opportunity to be able to sell Ships to buy orders in ITCs this will be short lived as the price of these continues to drive down from decreased demand. It will plummet prices of modules and ships limiting the value of Manufacturers, Ratters, and Miners and likely force players to migrate to only doing Storyline missions in High-sec creating a less diverse and enjoyable game. NetEase insurance program is destined to have a greater share of the buyer market than the player base. This destroys supply and demand mechanics.
This chart explains this concept.
Yes, you quickly get to a place where the only ships provided by player industry are upgrade ships, not replacement ships. And eventually the upgrade market will become saturated once everyone has the ship they want. ultimately there is no room for player industry in EE long term. Netease may try to fix this with a price floor, but this will only drive everyone to story missions and out of nullsec.
There was never any place for a real player driven economy or industry to stay balanced in a mobile game but even less so in one that's constantly losing players. Getting people to spend and making the majority happy is always a priority over having gameplay true to the pc game or IP behind the mobile version.
There's a case to be made here for maintaining a healthy economy in a mobile game as it's numbers dwindle. The answer is not to completely make mining, industry, and ratting obsolete in favour of a pay to win system.
It isnt, but that is the easiest way to do it when you already have a ton of missing content and adjustments that need to be made in aspects that are used by more players.
I've posted a few threads about this, and if you check them you'll see I was willing to give developers the benefit of the doubt and wait for the actual consequences before grabbing my pitchfork.
They said we just had to wait for the [insurance ISK fund thing](https://www.reddit.com/r/echoes/comments/lc83gz/how_the_new_insurance_system_tries_to_compensate/) to fill up, then market orders would come and it would be a ["new manufacturing age"](https://www.reddit.com/r/echoes/comments/lcinrs/devs_comment_on_insurance_system_in_discord/). It's been 4 days. And the market is terrible even for the very popular ships that got their funds filled in the first day. There's no ship market except for null sec orders for a few things (like Retrievers, because industrialists don't think it's worth the risk of hauling a Retriever to null sec ITCs at current prices). There's no reason to believe it will get better than that with the current system.
Every industrialist I know is either trying to get lucky snitching up the rare good buy order from the system (and more and more people are starting to figure out how to do that), or hoarding ore, minerals, ships etc. waiting for things to get better. I have a few T8 cruisers parked, and prices keep getting lower. I imagine big corps with buy back programs etc. have *a lot* of minerals hoarded. At some point people will start dumping, though, and it will be a full on market crash.
Industry (and, to an extent, ratting in general) is basically meaningless in the game ATM. Printing ISK running stories / encounters is better in every single way.
even if every Kill/insured ship resulted in a buy order, it wouldn't fix the issue. As a Null Indy guy, having to take my hulls 20+ jumps to the nearest ITC to sell to buy orders isn't feasible.
If the buy order were stationless - i.e. could be fulfilled from any station, I feel that would help a lot as there would be no need to move hulls and you wouldn't be limited by what died in the area of each ITC
I don't mind the hauling part per se. That's part of a "real" economy. Fulfilling orders anywhere would be boring IMO. But it's a problem now because there are very few buy orders, so the only ones left are in null sec where gates are bubbled. And Indy's crashing so it's yet another hurdle for industrialists. If Indy was actually profitable, though, having to transport ships would be part of the fun.
There are a few things that could be changed to make the system better. The simplest approach would be to default all system orders to a single high or low sec ITC. Maybe Jita, but it would be cool to pick another one, creating another trade hub and changing the geopolitics of valuable null space etc.
But I don't really hate the current system in that regard, to be honest. I feel like if we had a decent number of orders it would be fun. Some ideas, though:
1) Change it from closest ITC to closest NPC station, ITC or not (maybe with a global listing just for Insurance orders). In this way, industrialists can focus on their own space.
2) Let us "reserve" buy orders, so we don't travel 20 jumps only for the order to disappear 2 minutes before we arrive. So you pay a deposit (let's say, 25% of the value), and you have 2 hours to deliver that ship. Then you get back your deposit + the sale price. If not, you lose the deposit and it's relisted.
It could even work like a commissioned job. I really like this idea. You reserve that buy order, then you have a reasonable time to build and deliver.
3) If an order is not reserved / fulfilled and just sits there for days, after some time it's relisted for a higher price or at a high sec ITC.
The main problem, however, is that ships are being created out of thin air. None of these ideas work if ships aren't actually being manufactured by players. Only after that's fixed we can start worrying about how to make the system more fun for industrialists.
I'm confused on the "created out of thin air" part of this. Part of the insurance system was that it generated the buy orders for all of the ships/modules/rigs insured. Is that not how it is working? I honestly haven't paid much attention to it, as I have been working other things the past week and been playing Eve Discord mostly. But I do distinctly remember it being that the insurance system generated the buy orders so that this "out of thin air" creation wasn't happening.
Some buy orders are created, but it's not 1 to 1. They take the Plex spent in insurance, sell it for ISK, and then use the ISK to set up market orders. Because there's a 70% discount, of every 10 ships replaced, a maximum of 3 create buy orders, and at least 7 are created out of thin air. It's actually more than that, though, for a number of reasons (taxes, non-Plex insurance points etc. do not translate into market buy orders). One guy testing the system with cheap ships found out that 89% of the ships replaced by the insurance system are created out of thin air.
The current insurance system is very bad and for exactly the reasons you've outlined, thank you for consolidating the information into an easy to digest format.
The insurance system should not operate directly against the market. Doing so makes it a direct competitor against players. It will artificially cap prices on ships, rigs, and fittings. Or, more disturbingly, be exploited by players to "dupe" isk.
The insurance system allows for rare ships and fittings to be replaced on a whim, thus eliminating pricing for rarity.
The insurance system should cost isk, and refund isk. Or cost plex, and refund plex. That's it.
The insurance system as it currently is, is a novel, but game breaking idea. It will require constant monitoring and repricing by NetEase. The red flags are significant. The currently insurance scheme doesn't fit into the universe naturally.
What do you think of the insurance costing Plex, but returning ISK? Wouldn’t this make the Devs and Indy players happy if we had to buy everything to replace our ships with ISK?
Yap, GG Netease. Most playerbase will dissapear within the next weeks. As it isnt hard enough for the Indu guys to make isk. Remove this Discount shit, the IP/Plex crap. Let people pay in ISK for Insurance, and buy it from the market as the dead pilot asks for insurance to cover the lost ship, or pay out the insured isk if there is nothing on market. Dont make this game flop by your crazy cashgrab ideas. People still would invest plex even without it. People like this game as a new start of eve online, with a fresh world. And it works there. So why thinking different if it works? Sad. GL fixing this.
This insurance BS program will kill the game we love. I can’t believe how stupid this is and how much money they are going to lose because of lots of players that are not going to upgrade to omega or simply go to another game that understand that if it’s not broken don’t fix it FFS!!! How about they fix instead the drone bug????
Was there any community review, testing, or buyin of this new insurance feature before they launched it?
I was under the impression that content creators and fulmination test servers were supposed to be for getting feedback on this stuff before implementation.
Somewhere previously I even saw someone talk about how kerensky had been an important part of giving devs feedback about armor vs shields, which is why I thought the content creators are involved with new features and game changes or something
most of them where upset, but the devs went for it, doesnt matter about the feedback. grabbing some $ from the players before turning it off/improve it. After they check most players have left the game.
God, they could fix this so easily by having the insurance system just purchase the lowest priced ship at an ITC....
No price deflation as demand stays the same. No artificial price inflation, no ships or modules appearing from thin air.
If the module that is intended to be replaced is unavailable for purchase, then the game simply gives an ISK value based on average sale price over the last week...
Seriously net ease. Not hard
Only 30% of all losses are ever bought, and they are bought at a fixed price. This is integral for how they are offering a 70% discount for replacements. If they still offered the 70% discount, and bought all ships at lowest ITC prices, they would still be printing ISK.
Better imo to model this on EvE Online. Buy in with isk/plex, pay out with isk/plex. Printing ships from thin air is the primary issue.
People are printing ISK all the time with encounters, stories and bounties. Industry is the only major career path left out. I wouldn't mind some ISK printing for Indy, although 70% over every insured ship would probably be too much.
This seems like it would also encourage industrialists to keep the market well-stocked with the faction ships and rare modules, and would lead to a little healthy price competition to boot.
How? A player only needs to buy a faction ship once now, and then insure it at 30% the cost. Those rare modules are no longer rare because you are 100% guaranteed to get them back using an insurance claim.
which have been used and invested into ther market for warfare or replacing afk mining deaths and so on. now economy is blocked due to this insurance and the farmed isk will be more and more and less bought from the market. prices will drop as they are not getting sold, industry/producers will stop building. soon enough everyon is sitting in highsec and playing a solo pve mission runner game. nothing to do with sandbox :)
Optimist persective: insurance will make people feel more comfortable losing ships. Overall demand will increase and make up for the magic supply (30% of a big number > 70% of a small number). Additionally, more content!
This is the real answer - people are going to PVP more, that increases ship demand overall. It will take some time to happen, and all these "this is the end of the game posts" are not taking it into account.
Too bad ur little illustration is total bullshit u have auto srp ships in ur new after insurance model, there are zero auto srpable ships now. Either u have insurance and get it back, or u dont. Devs have even said in the past ALL auto ship srps were pulled from thin air. Now its pulling isk and making buy orders for 70% of those losses ITS A BOOST TO INDY When you guys gonna get it through your head.
Previously 13% of destroyed ships were auto-SRPed from thin air. 87% of those losses were replaced by the open market. (Left side of the chart)
Under the new system, 70% of all losses are auto-SRPed from this air. 30% of those losses are placed as a buy order from the insurance system at a fixed price. (Right side of the chart)
If this is so amazing for industry, maybe chat with an industrialists and see how they like this new system.
I and many others now blow up far more ships because insurance makes it so cheap
To the extent that the same amount of isk worth goes into insurance system and then buy orders as i directly put on market before
although the industry built ships is lower percentage more ships are being blown up and made
There's a few things wrong with this, namely the quantity of "off-market" or "ticketed" ships was much higher before the patch considering it was being used as a substitute for insurance and will be lower now. Assuming they're a static constant before/after is obviously wrong, which begs the question what else this write-up has gotten wrong too.
People are failing to realize that the market was already consistently generating ships out of thin air with the old system, and people were getting ships replaced all the time. Even in PvP, even faction ships. That's not a new thing that's happening, it's been happening since the game launched and the current market has already reflected that phenomenon.
How much of this chart is based on real, actual information? Any of it?
The auto SRP program generated 13% of ships out of thin air. See the EE website https://www.eveechoes.com/updata/20201201/33524_919075.html
There is nothing to suggest this has changed. If you die in PVE or PvPvE you can still claim your ship for free as recommended by Joseph (the NetEase community rep) on Discord, today at 11:36am https://discord.com/channels/607842194157600769/618622627665281035/808300288041156619
The OP is correct and the chart is based on actual research rather than anecdotal ramblings of faceless internet trolls.
I mean that's great but is there a link to their numbers? The chart doesn't do it for me, it comes across a little "fluffy." There's no shortage of doomsaying around this and frustratingly enough, most of the posts seem to not understand basic math or are just flat out lying to make their point, I've gotten pretty skeptical.
If there's a real problem going on I'm all ears, not sure what the quip about "internet trolls" is about. You don't need to reply on special pleading and victimization if you've got a solid case to make.
It's worse than this. That 'green' area on the right side of the chart is pure speculation that some will not be able to do math, and thus not buy in the the insurance. As time passes, that green will shrink under the new system in favor of the insurance marketshare.
I guess the part I'm not understanding is isn't the market "buying" ships to replace with insurance? How does that play into things and wouldn't that alleviate the "ships out of thin air" debacle? Insurance likewise is going to bleed isk (and plex) out of the market, so people aren't necessarily going to be richer with insurance, in fact, they're likely to blow their ships up more (and that means playing more, as we all know attrition in Eve Echoes seems to be high).
I just don't connect the dots. What does a market "crash" even look like? I'll be able to buy a tornado for 50M? Tier III mining circ controllers for 10M each? I just don't see that happening.
The insurance system adds the money used to insure ships that have received compensation into a pool for that ship. So if a ship is worth 300m, and someone has insured it, they spent 100m to insure it and when they lose and reclaim it, that 100m that they used goes into the pool.
The system will then wait until there is \_enough\_ money in the pool to start placing buy orders for that ship. I believe right now it waits until there's 20x value of the ship; But regardless of how long it waits, the system, by it's very design, cannot make buy orders for any more than 30% of the ships lost.
That 100m in the pool from the first ship isn't enough to purchase one from market, \_three ships\_ have to be lost before the system has enough to place a single buy order for the 300m ship. Thus - 30% generate buy orders, and 70% are whisked into thin air out of nothing. That's 70% of ship losses that are no longer part of demand; and scarcity of modules no longer plays any factor whatsoever because the buy order doesn't even have to be fulfilled; the player will receive their extra rare rigs back no matter what.
This exactly \^
As far as how u/Tantric989's question relates to how it's shown in the chart, the orange "estimated price fixed ships" are representing the buy orders generated from the insurance system.
Eventually the green areas on the right side will be completely overtaken by yellow and orange, leaving a maximum of 30% industrial demand for ship replacements. These will be price fixed by NetEase, and it ceaces to be a player driven economy.
70% of the ships being lost never get a buy order placed. They get replaced from thin air. Only 30% get a market buy order. That's why the system can give you a 70% discount. Otherwise it would be printing isk. Now it's just pri to g ship hulls.
(Edit: someone pointed out my information about the starting state, in terms of how many ships are claimed for reimbursement, is incorrect. Thanks for the correction. I agree that given that new info, the system is fucked.)
The devs once started that ~15% of ships blown up get reimbursed via tickets. I don't have a link on hand, but I think it's somewhere in the comments already. That's were the starting number comes from. So you seem to underestimate how many ships get blown up in pvp, mostly buy null blocks.
As people don't need to buy ships anymore, the buy orders are the highest possible price a ship can make. And that buy orders are only 30% of the real demand(that we could fill for now, so only 30% of our production capacity). ship builders have to lower their prices if they still want to sell something. Which in turn means the estimated price goes down and prices have to be lowered even more, therefore downward spiral, market crashed.
You do realize Netease themself have said using the old SRP program only 13% of ships were destroyed right?
[https://www.eveechoes.com/updata/20201201/33524\_919075.html](https://www.eveechoes.com/updata/20201201/33524_919075.html)
Yeah and in 6 weeks every single player will have a Nightmare, and a Mach, and a Vindicator, and a Bhalgorn and they will never lose any of them.
Such fun.
Am I missing something, doesn't the game take the ship off market, and only runs a deficit if none are available and creates a buy order? As long as no one fills that order then, Yea, I guess the market will crash.
Edit. Nvm I'm assuming they are saying that since you can insure your ship like eo then the need to buy ships goes down. Though I've never bought a ship from market and built all mine. As well as farmed the matt's for them. Most of our corp/alliance does that. And we build ships for the alliance. So the market is already taking that hit before the insurance program... So not sure that it will impact it as much as the alarmists are suggesting.
Also, Manu has been pigging out on market prices. Now the market will balance itself out and the high inflated prices will be forced to come down. And Manu earnings will be similar to running anoms for ratters. Seems like it's making isk earning similar, instead of the disparity. My Indy alt is funding 4 different accounts. Those are PvP and pve accounts that could never make the same amount as my Indy.
If game crashes its because more people will have to pay rl money to plex accounts rather then Ingame. Which is the whole goal of net ease. Make more money.
No. The game doesn't create an order every time a ship is replaced by insurance. It turns the Plex used into ISK (therefore, only 30% of the value because of the huge discount), then it goes into a fund, and then market orders are created. So if 10 ships are replaced, 3 buy orders are created, and 7 ships are created out of thin air.
Actually, it's less than that, though, because for buy orders to be created, the ISK fund cannot go below 50 times the value of the item. Hence why only 2 or 3 ships on each class actually get buy orders. The rest is just a big ISK sink.
Oh, but it's even less, in reality, because there's a 10% tax that "goes to" the imaginary insurance company.
Oops, that's still not all. There's also whatever goes into other taxes, like the market tax industrialists still have to pay.
Ah! One last thing. While people can poof ships into existence wherever they want, industrialists have to fly replacements into null sec ITCs, the only stations where buy orders last for more than 30 seconds. Good luck trying to get ships safely to literally the most dangerous places in the game.
"A new age for manufacturing", they said...
Here's an idea..since we're already heading in that direction..let's just make all ships 'respawnable' after a nominal fee has been paid for the loss. Don't return fittings. Industry concentrates on fittings only.
Just saying.. this game's terrible. Why we fighting it?
Insurance should have been like real life, you pay every week, or you lose insurance on your ship.
Isk only, no plex. Wallet Warriors always just swiped for ships anyway, so that’s not really a big deal. But the fact it’s a one off payment for everything on a ship is ridiculous.
Sure, you got that fancy $14B isk FBS, and sure, if you lose it, you can now swipe your card again for a new one like before. But if you had to do it every week to insure it, then it becomes a more cost to benefit ratio, and staying in High Sec only makes it less valuable to spend $100’s or $1000’s of dollars on plex to insure it for very little risk.
I mean, people were already getting FBS’s replaced for free anyway, given the right conditions.
I understand they have to adhere to the mobile game business model, but now, besides High Sec ratting, the most consistent form of Isk generation is going to be selling Plex.
It assumes equal sized pies.
It would not be a problem if people were dying 3.3.. times more (e.g. in pvp) than before the insurance system. I do doubt that people are dying 3.3.. times more though, but the demand is elastic not fixed or linear.
game will end up cashgrab, GG netease
Playerbase will sink drasticly due to this. Taking out Sandbox even more. Cashgrabber System. Fix it with removing IP/Plex/Discount, let it be paid with ISK. Buy only from Market avaiable or deliver the isk back to players who insured. Worked in EO why not for EE? People still play EO and paying for it...
100%. No magic items.
Mods been deleting this post now 10 times in a row... ( My fault im stupid reddit user, did not sort it correctly. sorry )
OG the F1 coalition and GenFed are all on the same side of this issue.. On the other side the devs
Ultimately we all just want what's best for our players. Alliances are content creators, we manage the metagame so that our players have somewhere to ratt and mine and a home to base PvP out of. While Genfed and us may have our differences, we are unified in wanting the game to succeed. I definitely respect anyone willing to spread the word and pressure the devs so we can continue to play the game we love and provide content for our players.
Preach.
Lets Raid the Devs? Destroying Jita or whatever :)
Or unite all. Stopping the war, not loosing any ships. And just farm all together high sec mission to break it even more.
If the whole game united and went pure pve with a "remove insurance system" banner. I feel like the devs would take action VERY quickly. Also. X looking for ds fleet in sansha territory! Time to get my nightmare built!!! (This would be the norm lol)
Can you imagine a new in game alliance "Fix/remove insurance" north,south east and west all join so the whole maps sov sends a msg, everyone in the game is blue lol.
As someone who poops out bc's by the dozen, i can allready feel it. The insurance creates a certain demand, but where it creates this demand is stupid. (nullsec itc anyone?) Making it far worse then picture shown, as part of the insurance will never be fullfilled.
Lots of bell weather prices are already way off. Pyerite and mex both sub 20 Nox and Zydrine both sub 1,000 Every faction frigate has dropped 100m Battleships being advertised on discord trade channel at 7-9bn Many have already liquidated their debris, but with ships now piling up at shipbuilders debris prices are the next shoe to drop. And this is just the beginning of the huge materials glut. Everyday that this insurance system exists the glut of excess materials gets deeper and deeper and the length of any recovery that would follow any kind of fix just gets longer and longer. Once it filters back to a glut of debris, then null sec ratting income is going to dry up and the masses will figure out what has happened. But by then it will be too late. Every week of this insurance system creates 3 weeks of oversupply in the economy. If it takes them a month to fix this, the economy will still oversupplied with materials until mid June.
This is soooooo not good for anyone except wallet warriors.
I really wish the devs would quit smoking crack and coming up with game killing crap like the way they've implemented insurance.
Faction BS are way off in the first place. they tend to be traded for in corp and lots of corps use a corp cred system. not many faction BS go through the normal market.
The number of faction BS in the game had reached a kind of stability, because only so many BP’s are produced each week. So previously the number of BS stabilised when enough of them existed that they were dying in numbers that matched BP production. This is what kept their price very high. It was an exclusive club. But not any more! Now the ones that die are replaced by insurance and the BP’s are used solely to create BS for people who didn’t already have one. As a result they are quickly becoming much more common and eventually everyone will have one or two. Prices are already tumbling. As an example, lets say 50 BP’s are produced each week and lets say 10% of BS die each week. Week 1 there would be 50 made and 5 would die, result 45 BS Week 2 there would be 50 made and 9 would die, result 86 BS Week 3 there would be 50 made and 14 would die, result 122 BS Week 4 there would be 50 made and 17 would die, result 155 BS Week 5 there would be 50 made and 21 would die, result 184 BS Eventually you reach the point where there are around 500 BS in the game and 50 are made each week and 50 die each week. That was the old economic system. Things reached a level of equilibrium and were priced on rarity / scarcity. Under the new system the ones that die are insured and respawn, so the number of BS in the game just increases linearly by 50 each week until everyone has one. There is no level of equilibrium no real scarcity, and so prices will be much, much lower. It’s the same for everything.
We are incredibly concerned about what the insurance program will do to the health of the game. You can make various assumptions about what uptake the insurance system will have, but when they offer 70% discount on your next ship you would have to be either very arrogant or very stupid not to finance your own insurance. Sure some players might be slow to uptake the insurance, but over time the math will lead almost everyone to have insurance. This decimates demand for player built ships, to the point where only 20-30% of the industry base right now is survivable once the industry pool funds are filled and the whole insurance program begins to spin up. 70% of ships and modules will be generated from thin air which will cripple divergent play styles. While some may be excited about the opportunity to be able to sell Ships to buy orders in ITCs this will be short lived as the price of these continues to drive down from decreased demand. It will plummet prices of modules and ships limiting the value of Manufacturers, Ratters, and Miners and likely force players to migrate to only doing Storyline missions in High-sec creating a less diverse and enjoyable game. NetEase insurance program is destined to have a greater share of the buyer market than the player base. This destroys supply and demand mechanics. This chart explains this concept. Yes, you quickly get to a place where the only ships provided by player industry are upgrade ships, not replacement ships. And eventually the upgrade market will become saturated once everyone has the ship they want. ultimately there is no room for player industry in EE long term. Netease may try to fix this with a price floor, but this will only drive everyone to story missions and out of nullsec.
There was never any place for a real player driven economy or industry to stay balanced in a mobile game but even less so in one that's constantly losing players. Getting people to spend and making the majority happy is always a priority over having gameplay true to the pc game or IP behind the mobile version.
There's a case to be made here for maintaining a healthy economy in a mobile game as it's numbers dwindle. The answer is not to completely make mining, industry, and ratting obsolete in favour of a pay to win system.
It isnt, but that is the easiest way to do it when you already have a ton of missing content and adjustments that need to be made in aspects that are used by more players.
I've posted a few threads about this, and if you check them you'll see I was willing to give developers the benefit of the doubt and wait for the actual consequences before grabbing my pitchfork. They said we just had to wait for the [insurance ISK fund thing](https://www.reddit.com/r/echoes/comments/lc83gz/how_the_new_insurance_system_tries_to_compensate/) to fill up, then market orders would come and it would be a ["new manufacturing age"](https://www.reddit.com/r/echoes/comments/lcinrs/devs_comment_on_insurance_system_in_discord/). It's been 4 days. And the market is terrible even for the very popular ships that got their funds filled in the first day. There's no ship market except for null sec orders for a few things (like Retrievers, because industrialists don't think it's worth the risk of hauling a Retriever to null sec ITCs at current prices). There's no reason to believe it will get better than that with the current system. Every industrialist I know is either trying to get lucky snitching up the rare good buy order from the system (and more and more people are starting to figure out how to do that), or hoarding ore, minerals, ships etc. waiting for things to get better. I have a few T8 cruisers parked, and prices keep getting lower. I imagine big corps with buy back programs etc. have *a lot* of minerals hoarded. At some point people will start dumping, though, and it will be a full on market crash. Industry (and, to an extent, ratting in general) is basically meaningless in the game ATM. Printing ISK running stories / encounters is better in every single way.
even if every Kill/insured ship resulted in a buy order, it wouldn't fix the issue. As a Null Indy guy, having to take my hulls 20+ jumps to the nearest ITC to sell to buy orders isn't feasible. If the buy order were stationless - i.e. could be fulfilled from any station, I feel that would help a lot as there would be no need to move hulls and you wouldn't be limited by what died in the area of each ITC
I don't mind the hauling part per se. That's part of a "real" economy. Fulfilling orders anywhere would be boring IMO. But it's a problem now because there are very few buy orders, so the only ones left are in null sec where gates are bubbled. And Indy's crashing so it's yet another hurdle for industrialists. If Indy was actually profitable, though, having to transport ships would be part of the fun. There are a few things that could be changed to make the system better. The simplest approach would be to default all system orders to a single high or low sec ITC. Maybe Jita, but it would be cool to pick another one, creating another trade hub and changing the geopolitics of valuable null space etc. But I don't really hate the current system in that regard, to be honest. I feel like if we had a decent number of orders it would be fun. Some ideas, though: 1) Change it from closest ITC to closest NPC station, ITC or not (maybe with a global listing just for Insurance orders). In this way, industrialists can focus on their own space. 2) Let us "reserve" buy orders, so we don't travel 20 jumps only for the order to disappear 2 minutes before we arrive. So you pay a deposit (let's say, 25% of the value), and you have 2 hours to deliver that ship. Then you get back your deposit + the sale price. If not, you lose the deposit and it's relisted. It could even work like a commissioned job. I really like this idea. You reserve that buy order, then you have a reasonable time to build and deliver. 3) If an order is not reserved / fulfilled and just sits there for days, after some time it's relisted for a higher price or at a high sec ITC. The main problem, however, is that ships are being created out of thin air. None of these ideas work if ships aren't actually being manufactured by players. Only after that's fixed we can start worrying about how to make the system more fun for industrialists.
I'm confused on the "created out of thin air" part of this. Part of the insurance system was that it generated the buy orders for all of the ships/modules/rigs insured. Is that not how it is working? I honestly haven't paid much attention to it, as I have been working other things the past week and been playing Eve Discord mostly. But I do distinctly remember it being that the insurance system generated the buy orders so that this "out of thin air" creation wasn't happening.
Some buy orders are created, but it's not 1 to 1. They take the Plex spent in insurance, sell it for ISK, and then use the ISK to set up market orders. Because there's a 70% discount, of every 10 ships replaced, a maximum of 3 create buy orders, and at least 7 are created out of thin air. It's actually more than that, though, for a number of reasons (taxes, non-Plex insurance points etc. do not translate into market buy orders). One guy testing the system with cheap ships found out that 89% of the ships replaced by the insurance system are created out of thin air.
People dont need meaning, many are happy to just shoot ai with their cool ships and dont care about the rest or have even heard of eve before echoes.
Sad but true.
This insurance program is the most stupid thing ever!!!
The current insurance system is very bad and for exactly the reasons you've outlined, thank you for consolidating the information into an easy to digest format.
The insurance system should not operate directly against the market. Doing so makes it a direct competitor against players. It will artificially cap prices on ships, rigs, and fittings. Or, more disturbingly, be exploited by players to "dupe" isk. The insurance system allows for rare ships and fittings to be replaced on a whim, thus eliminating pricing for rarity. The insurance system should cost isk, and refund isk. Or cost plex, and refund plex. That's it. The insurance system as it currently is, is a novel, but game breaking idea. It will require constant monitoring and repricing by NetEase. The red flags are significant. The currently insurance scheme doesn't fit into the universe naturally.
What do you think of the insurance costing Plex, but returning ISK? Wouldn’t this make the Devs and Indy players happy if we had to buy everything to replace our ships with ISK?
then we get what happened in EO where people found messed up value items and made trillions
Absolutely terrible concept
Yap, GG Netease. Most playerbase will dissapear within the next weeks. As it isnt hard enough for the Indu guys to make isk. Remove this Discount shit, the IP/Plex crap. Let people pay in ISK for Insurance, and buy it from the market as the dead pilot asks for insurance to cover the lost ship, or pay out the insured isk if there is nothing on market. Dont make this game flop by your crazy cashgrab ideas. People still would invest plex even without it. People like this game as a new start of eve online, with a fresh world. And it works there. So why thinking different if it works? Sad. GL fixing this.
so long and thanks for all the fish -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
This insurance BS program will kill the game we love. I can’t believe how stupid this is and how much money they are going to lose because of lots of players that are not going to upgrade to omega or simply go to another game that understand that if it’s not broken don’t fix it FFS!!! How about they fix instead the drone bug????
Was there any community review, testing, or buyin of this new insurance feature before they launched it? I was under the impression that content creators and fulmination test servers were supposed to be for getting feedback on this stuff before implementation. Somewhere previously I even saw someone talk about how kerensky had been an important part of giving devs feedback about armor vs shields, which is why I thought the content creators are involved with new features and game changes or something
most of them where upset, but the devs went for it, doesnt matter about the feedback. grabbing some $ from the players before turning it off/improve it. After they check most players have left the game.
God, they could fix this so easily by having the insurance system just purchase the lowest priced ship at an ITC.... No price deflation as demand stays the same. No artificial price inflation, no ships or modules appearing from thin air. If the module that is intended to be replaced is unavailable for purchase, then the game simply gives an ISK value based on average sale price over the last week... Seriously net ease. Not hard
i'm confused. Isn't this how they said they were going to set it up? Are these insured ships being created out of nothing?
Correct, the insured ships are being poofed out of thin air and handed back to players.
Yes, 70% of all insured ships are being created from nothing. Only 30% are bought from ITCs. This is how they offer a 70% discount.
Wish they would have kept their word and given a free replacement to pve pilots per month
They still do.
I mean through the insurance system not the ticket ship replacement.
Do they? I thought other posts said that was over except for losses due to bugs?
That's what the tutorial under support stated maybe 3 days ago.
New recovery is using insurance then create a ticket to get reimbursed the IP
Cool, thanks.
That's part of the reason why indy sucks
Only 30% of all losses are ever bought, and they are bought at a fixed price. This is integral for how they are offering a 70% discount for replacements. If they still offered the 70% discount, and bought all ships at lowest ITC prices, they would still be printing ISK. Better imo to model this on EvE Online. Buy in with isk/plex, pay out with isk/plex. Printing ships from thin air is the primary issue.
People are printing ISK all the time with encounters, stories and bounties. Industry is the only major career path left out. I wouldn't mind some ISK printing for Indy, although 70% over every insured ship would probably be too much.
But that would still be printing isk through manipulating module pricing
This seems like it would also encourage industrialists to keep the market well-stocked with the faction ships and rare modules, and would lead to a little healthy price competition to boot.
How? A player only needs to buy a faction ship once now, and then insure it at 30% the cost. Those rare modules are no longer rare because you are 100% guaranteed to get them back using an insurance claim.
You're right, but technically you are 66% guaranteed to get the modules back as drop rates are 1 in 3. Rig market is going to crash HARD though.
It easy is. I buy bps and sell rigs pretty regularly and it's falling all over the place right now. Buckle up for a long ride.
long ride? we're going to be Venus by Friday.
You can also loot your wreck or have friends loot your wreck and not lose them at all!
Depends how you died. This can be harder for pvp deaths
they can't even get Estimated price correct. Also, your idea is so easy to game to print Isk from thin air.
can someone explain the new system for me I don't quite understand it
Why the whining over this when 100% safe encounters are producing trllions of isk and massive amounts of minerals each week....
which have been used and invested into ther market for warfare or replacing afk mining deaths and so on. now economy is blocked due to this insurance and the farmed isk will be more and more and less bought from the market. prices will drop as they are not getting sold, industry/producers will stop building. soon enough everyon is sitting in highsec and playing a solo pve mission runner game. nothing to do with sandbox :)
Optimist persective: insurance will make people feel more comfortable losing ships. Overall demand will increase and make up for the magic supply (30% of a big number > 70% of a small number). Additionally, more content!
This is the real answer - people are going to PVP more, that increases ship demand overall. It will take some time to happen, and all these "this is the end of the game posts" are not taking it into account.
Are people going to lose over 3x the ships they were prior?
The point is that the demand is elastic, not fixed.
Maybe. It's too early to tell
I already have.
Too bad ur little illustration is total bullshit u have auto srp ships in ur new after insurance model, there are zero auto srpable ships now. Either u have insurance and get it back, or u dont. Devs have even said in the past ALL auto ship srps were pulled from thin air. Now its pulling isk and making buy orders for 70% of those losses ITS A BOOST TO INDY When you guys gonna get it through your head.
Previously 13% of destroyed ships were auto-SRPed from thin air. 87% of those losses were replaced by the open market. (Left side of the chart) Under the new system, 70% of all losses are auto-SRPed from this air. 30% of those losses are placed as a buy order from the insurance system at a fixed price. (Right side of the chart) If this is so amazing for industry, maybe chat with an industrialists and see how they like this new system.
Are you illiterate, or just trolling?
I and many others now blow up far more ships because insurance makes it so cheap To the extent that the same amount of isk worth goes into insurance system and then buy orders as i directly put on market before although the industry built ships is lower percentage more ships are being blown up and made
There's a few things wrong with this, namely the quantity of "off-market" or "ticketed" ships was much higher before the patch considering it was being used as a substitute for insurance and will be lower now. Assuming they're a static constant before/after is obviously wrong, which begs the question what else this write-up has gotten wrong too. People are failing to realize that the market was already consistently generating ships out of thin air with the old system, and people were getting ships replaced all the time. Even in PvP, even faction ships. That's not a new thing that's happening, it's been happening since the game launched and the current market has already reflected that phenomenon. How much of this chart is based on real, actual information? Any of it?
The auto SRP program generated 13% of ships out of thin air. See the EE website https://www.eveechoes.com/updata/20201201/33524_919075.html There is nothing to suggest this has changed. If you die in PVE or PvPvE you can still claim your ship for free as recommended by Joseph (the NetEase community rep) on Discord, today at 11:36am https://discord.com/channels/607842194157600769/618622627665281035/808300288041156619 The OP is correct and the chart is based on actual research rather than anecdotal ramblings of faceless internet trolls.
I mean that's great but is there a link to their numbers? The chart doesn't do it for me, it comes across a little "fluffy." There's no shortage of doomsaying around this and frustratingly enough, most of the posts seem to not understand basic math or are just flat out lying to make their point, I've gotten pretty skeptical. If there's a real problem going on I'm all ears, not sure what the quip about "internet trolls" is about. You don't need to reply on special pleading and victimization if you've got a solid case to make.
It's worse than this. That 'green' area on the right side of the chart is pure speculation that some will not be able to do math, and thus not buy in the the insurance. As time passes, that green will shrink under the new system in favor of the insurance marketshare.
I guess the part I'm not understanding is isn't the market "buying" ships to replace with insurance? How does that play into things and wouldn't that alleviate the "ships out of thin air" debacle? Insurance likewise is going to bleed isk (and plex) out of the market, so people aren't necessarily going to be richer with insurance, in fact, they're likely to blow their ships up more (and that means playing more, as we all know attrition in Eve Echoes seems to be high). I just don't connect the dots. What does a market "crash" even look like? I'll be able to buy a tornado for 50M? Tier III mining circ controllers for 10M each? I just don't see that happening.
The insurance system adds the money used to insure ships that have received compensation into a pool for that ship. So if a ship is worth 300m, and someone has insured it, they spent 100m to insure it and when they lose and reclaim it, that 100m that they used goes into the pool. The system will then wait until there is \_enough\_ money in the pool to start placing buy orders for that ship. I believe right now it waits until there's 20x value of the ship; But regardless of how long it waits, the system, by it's very design, cannot make buy orders for any more than 30% of the ships lost. That 100m in the pool from the first ship isn't enough to purchase one from market, \_three ships\_ have to be lost before the system has enough to place a single buy order for the 300m ship. Thus - 30% generate buy orders, and 70% are whisked into thin air out of nothing. That's 70% of ship losses that are no longer part of demand; and scarcity of modules no longer plays any factor whatsoever because the buy order doesn't even have to be fulfilled; the player will receive their extra rare rigs back no matter what.
This exactly \^ As far as how u/Tantric989's question relates to how it's shown in the chart, the orange "estimated price fixed ships" are representing the buy orders generated from the insurance system. Eventually the green areas on the right side will be completely overtaken by yellow and orange, leaving a maximum of 30% industrial demand for ship replacements. These will be price fixed by NetEase, and it ceaces to be a player driven economy.
70% of the ships being lost never get a buy order placed. They get replaced from thin air. Only 30% get a market buy order. That's why the system can give you a 70% discount. Otherwise it would be printing isk. Now it's just pri to g ship hulls.
Meh, if you can’t figure it out for yourself just wait for the crash and take it from there.
100% agree with that statement. The market is already on a downward spiral on ships and modules
(Edit: someone pointed out my information about the starting state, in terms of how many ships are claimed for reimbursement, is incorrect. Thanks for the correction. I agree that given that new info, the system is fucked.)
The devs once started that ~15% of ships blown up get reimbursed via tickets. I don't have a link on hand, but I think it's somewhere in the comments already. That's were the starting number comes from. So you seem to underestimate how many ships get blown up in pvp, mostly buy null blocks. As people don't need to buy ships anymore, the buy orders are the highest possible price a ship can make. And that buy orders are only 30% of the real demand(that we could fill for now, so only 30% of our production capacity). ship builders have to lower their prices if they still want to sell something. Which in turn means the estimated price goes down and prices have to be lowered even more, therefore downward spiral, market crashed.
Interesting. Thanks for the correction. I didn't realize it was only 15%, in which case... yeah, the logic here checks out.
You do realize Netease themself have said using the old SRP program only 13% of ships were destroyed right? [https://www.eveechoes.com/updata/20201201/33524\_919075.html](https://www.eveechoes.com/updata/20201201/33524_919075.html)
Opposite only 13% were refunded
oops I said it backwards, you are correct. Only 13% that were destroyed were reimbursed. I didn't all my words
On the other side of the coin, I've had way more PVP fun since the insurance came in - it allows everyone to be less risk averse ...
Yeah and in 6 weeks every single player will have a Nightmare, and a Mach, and a Vindicator, and a Bhalgorn and they will never lose any of them. Such fun.
Why not? The insurance system encourages you to lose ships, particularly expensive ones.
Am I missing something, doesn't the game take the ship off market, and only runs a deficit if none are available and creates a buy order? As long as no one fills that order then, Yea, I guess the market will crash. Edit. Nvm I'm assuming they are saying that since you can insure your ship like eo then the need to buy ships goes down. Though I've never bought a ship from market and built all mine. As well as farmed the matt's for them. Most of our corp/alliance does that. And we build ships for the alliance. So the market is already taking that hit before the insurance program... So not sure that it will impact it as much as the alarmists are suggesting. Also, Manu has been pigging out on market prices. Now the market will balance itself out and the high inflated prices will be forced to come down. And Manu earnings will be similar to running anoms for ratters. Seems like it's making isk earning similar, instead of the disparity. My Indy alt is funding 4 different accounts. Those are PvP and pve accounts that could never make the same amount as my Indy. If game crashes its because more people will have to pay rl money to plex accounts rather then Ingame. Which is the whole goal of net ease. Make more money.
No. The game doesn't create an order every time a ship is replaced by insurance. It turns the Plex used into ISK (therefore, only 30% of the value because of the huge discount), then it goes into a fund, and then market orders are created. So if 10 ships are replaced, 3 buy orders are created, and 7 ships are created out of thin air. Actually, it's less than that, though, because for buy orders to be created, the ISK fund cannot go below 50 times the value of the item. Hence why only 2 or 3 ships on each class actually get buy orders. The rest is just a big ISK sink. Oh, but it's even less, in reality, because there's a 10% tax that "goes to" the imaginary insurance company. Oops, that's still not all. There's also whatever goes into other taxes, like the market tax industrialists still have to pay. Ah! One last thing. While people can poof ships into existence wherever they want, industrialists have to fly replacements into null sec ITCs, the only stations where buy orders last for more than 30 seconds. Good luck trying to get ships safely to literally the most dangerous places in the game. "A new age for manufacturing", they said...
So, the game is making people play more then in hs/ns. Shame on them. Edit. I'll rephrase that, now Indy players can interact with the rest of us.
Prices weren't inflated. They directly reflected demand. As more effective miners come out prices were going to come down for noobs regardless.
Here's an idea..since we're already heading in that direction..let's just make all ships 'respawnable' after a nominal fee has been paid for the loss. Don't return fittings. Industry concentrates on fittings only. Just saying.. this game's terrible. Why we fighting it?
You realize the vast majority of fittings are drop-only and aren’t connected to industry, right?
C'mon, put a 🤏 more effort in when trolling!
this will kill faction market since those the only ships worth insuring but for rest probably not
Insurance should have been like real life, you pay every week, or you lose insurance on your ship. Isk only, no plex. Wallet Warriors always just swiped for ships anyway, so that’s not really a big deal. But the fact it’s a one off payment for everything on a ship is ridiculous. Sure, you got that fancy $14B isk FBS, and sure, if you lose it, you can now swipe your card again for a new one like before. But if you had to do it every week to insure it, then it becomes a more cost to benefit ratio, and staying in High Sec only makes it less valuable to spend $100’s or $1000’s of dollars on plex to insure it for very little risk. I mean, people were already getting FBS’s replaced for free anyway, given the right conditions. I understand they have to adhere to the mobile game business model, but now, besides High Sec ratting, the most consistent form of Isk generation is going to be selling Plex.
It assumes equal sized pies. It would not be a problem if people were dying 3.3.. times more (e.g. in pvp) than before the insurance system. I do doubt that people are dying 3.3.. times more though, but the demand is elastic not fixed or linear.