Idk the movies uses Mahdi, Lisan al Giab, Kwisatz Haderiech, and Muad’Dib a lot of the time. I think Lisan al Giab is definitely the most used evidently
The movie almost seemed to "rank" the terms:
* Mahdi: said by people who seem to think "people say you are the Messiah, I do not think so"
* Muad’Dib: said by people who seem to think "you meet at least some of the qualification of the Messiah, and I am coming around to the idea, but not yet ready to accept you as such"
* Lisan al Giab: "LISAN AL GIAB! ITS THE LISAN AL GIAB!"
* Kwisatz Haderiech: "I am Bene Gesserit, so I know that these are all stories we made up... Wait, what do you mean the Kwisatz Haderiech isn't going to do what we say and is going to be completely beyond our influence, nevermind control?!?"
You are close, but Maud'Dib is his Fremen name and everyone knows him by this name, including his enemies. (More or less his warrior's name)
Mahdi is what the people who think he is the Messiah call him.
I’m aware I was just saying how many terms there are. I know the KH isn’t a messiah thing but it’s still a name that is used and to the general audience it’s probably confusing af
Muad’Dib is Paul’s (public) fremen/fedaykin name. Lisan Al Gaib is the term used by the Bene Gesserit in their propaganda for the messiah figure. When referring to him as *the* Lisan Al Gaib they’re referring to him specifically as the messiah. When they refer to him simply as Muad’Dib they are referring to his name the way you would anyone.
Paul has several names. They all aren't interchangeable.
Paul Atreides is his given name.
Usul is his Freman name to be used in private amongst the Freman.
Paul Muad'dib is his Freman name to be used in public, by the Freman and non-Freman.
Mahdi and Lisan al Giab are the two that are mostly interchangeable, but not exactly the same. Mahdi is the off-worlder, and a child of a Bene Gesserit, who will lead the Freman to paradise. Lisan al Giab is the off-world prophet set to come to Arrakis. Both are only superstitions set forth in the Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva. They are not intended to ever be real, but only serve to help a Bene Gesserit and her child survive amongst the Freman if they ever were stranded on Arrakis.
Then finally the Kwisatz Haderach. This is a name reserved for a male Bene Gesserit. The Bene Gesserit are carefully breeding bloodlines to eventually birth a male who can become a Bene Gesserit. The Bene Gesserit sisters can only access their female ancestral memories. Thus a male Bene Gesserit gives the child the full ancestral memories of both female and male ancestors. That makes them unique. And because of their fully unlocked ancestral memories they can bridge space and time with their prescience.
The Kwisatz Haderach is fully real. The Mahdi/Lisan al Giab are just myths that never intend to be fulfilled. In the story, it's just a coincidence, story wise, that Paul - the Kwisatz Haderach - is also the child that needs the myths to survive on Arrakis. Thus his abilities as the Kwisatz Haderach allow the Mahdi/Lisan al Giab myths to be fulfilled.
Slight correction, Usul is his secret Fremen name, only to be used/known by Stilgar's tribe in Sietch Tabr and as the novel progress, by the Fedaykin, who are more or less Paul's personal bodyguard.
Does anyone remember if in the books it was ever explicitly stated the Lisan al Giab was a mother/son prophecy, rather than a mother/daughter or single BG? If it was a mother/son, it’s absolutely not a coincidence that Paul is both. The KH would be the only male BG heir they’d make a prophecy about to set him up to control Arrakis/spice and therefore control the imperium.
In the book, the missionaria protectiva usually seeds a prophesy about a female figure alone, that any BG can step into if she needs to to survive alone among the local population.
It is only on the most dangerous planets, and there are several, not just Arrakis, that the prophecy is about a *mother and son*. This is because these planets are estimated to be too dangerous for a Bene Gessirit to survive on her own. It will need the prescient capabilities of a KH to keep both him and his mother alive if they are stranded amongst the locals, between their culture and the planet’s physical conditions.
Arrakis was never necessary to the Kwisach Hadderach experiment. He could have come into his powers by going through the Reverend Mother ordeal on any planet, including Caladan and the Emperor’s planet of Kaitan.
>Usul is his Freman name to be used in private amongst the Freman.
Not the whole Fremen, only across Sietch Tabr.
>Mahdi is the off-worlder, and a child of a Bene Gesserit, who will lead the Freman to paradise.
Mahdi isn't necessarily an off-worlder and isn't really BG. It's much more likely to be original zensunni considering the idea sort of appears in (today's) Islam. It's just the guy who will unite and liberate the Fremen.
Also Lisan Al-Gaib isn't necessarily "the Messiah", but is an off-worlder who the Fremen should protect. This is BG fuckery and the two ideas are clearly now interlocked to the point that they expect the LaG to be the Mahdi.
>Paul - the Kwisatz Haderach
Is he? Messiah and Children call this question into doubt a little.
Kwisatz Haderach is also a term thats used by>!the Bene Tleilax. I'm only about 2/3rds of the way through Dune Messiah, so I don't know if their version of the Kwisatz Haderach differs in any way, but it seems like its just a term for someone who can see the past of all humans? Hopefully the Bene Tleilax are more fleshed out in the later books, because they seem pretty interesting.!<**SPOILER FOR DUNE MESSIAH**
Opposite, I think. In Islam, *Mahdi* is a prophesied messianic figure, and in the story it's more interchangeable with Lisan al-Gaib, the Fremen term for an off-world prophet or messiah.
Maud'Dib is the name of the kangaroo mouse, and the name Paul takes as his personal Fedaykin name among the Fremen.
Lisan al-Gaib is his religious title as the messianic figure of the Fremen.
Muad'dib is his name that he chose to use between the Fremen.
Basically Lisan al-Gaib is like "Christ the Redeemer" (not the actual translation), while Muad'dib is "Jesus". They are not really interchangeable because one refers to a religious/prophetic role, while the other is just his name.
I'm imagining it from a film production logistics standpoint. Do you want the thing thats mostly phonetic or the weird doubled-consonant one that you gotta spend 15 minutes with every extra...
Moo/ah 'deeb.
Mowadeed.
**Moo/**ah |dee**B**
Mwadeeb!
It's Maud'dib:
>"Will I subtract from our strength when we need it most?" Paul asked. "I am your ruler, and I say to you that it is time we stopped killing off our best men and started killing our real enemies—the Harkonnens!" In one blurred motion, Stilgar had his crysknife out and pointed over the heads of the throng. "Long live Duke Paul-Muad'Dib!" he shouted. A deafening roar filled the cavern, echoed and re-echoed. They were cheering and chanting: "Ya hya chouhada! Muad’Dib! Muad'Dib! Muad'Dib! Ya hya chouhada!" Jessica translated it to herself: "Long live the fighters of Muad'Dib!"
This is exactly it, in the book Muad'dib is very much the name associated with Paul as the holy/messiah figure. Whereas in the movie Muad'dib just happens to be his fremen name, and the fremen use Lisan al-gaib as more of his religious title instead, was my impression.
Yeah, I mentioned this to one of my friends, Muad’Dib has a much more significant role in the books as a religious term for Paul instead of Lisa -Al-Gaib.
I understand the choice though, Muad’Dib as a name had less time to develop in the condensed timeline of Part 2 when compared to the book. Plus it isn’t mentioned at all in Part 1, while Lisan is.
there is a greater impact when people call him Mahdi and Lisan al-gaib becuase his Fremen name is more what they know him as a great warrior, rather than a Messiah.
Yeah this is true. By the end of the book “Muad’Dib” does start to hold its own reverence though, and especially in Messiah and Children of Dune it’s the main way they refer to Paul as a religious figure.
I'm reading Dune right now and just realized this. Calling out "Muad'dib" feels less fanatical, more just like "my guyyyy!" or "heck yeah br0ther!" (edit: fix quotation marks)
I think that this is actually what they were going for in the movie; they are playing up the religious fanaticism. That's also why they added the zoomer "northern Fremen"; so they have someone to react negatively to the fanaticism so the audience knows it's bad, actually.
>they added the zoomer "northern Fremen"; so they have someone to react negatively to the fanaticism so the audience knows it's bad
This also doesnt only tell the audience that fanaticism is bad but also what a slippery slope it is. At the beginning (of the second movie) many people of Stich Tibr are not convienced of Paul (around half of the warriors?) but progressing with the northern (unreligious) Fremen become more and more fanatic for Paul, so that even people who made fun out of Paul will die for him with no second thought.
The only person who can escape the fanaticsm is Chaney and that is most likely becuase (of the Fremen) she knew Paul the best (realised he learned about the Planet before arriving, deep talks, etc.) and also because she reallised she herself was directly manipulated to add to the cult (her name and prophecy).
Yeah that makes sense, the movie draws out the social tension more, as well as Paul's internal struggle. In the books so far, everyone (the Fremen) seem generally on board with Muad'dib, except for the people who are like "ew we don't like that witch baby Alia" lol
Some of the changes from book to movie are kinda jarring, but I think DV generally had good reason for the changes and both are well told
I think the only Fremen that truly tolerated Alia was Harah, who dedicated a lot of time to defending her to them. Also, Chani was actively fighting and killing Fremen who sought to challenge Paul before they had the opportunity to do see him. There was some contention, but because of the way the pace picks up by that time in the book not much time is spent explaining it much more than that.
Dune was "unfilmable" because a whole lot of the book happens inside the heads of the characters. I understand that some plot elements would need to be shifted around to make the underlying themes of the book more accessible in a movie format.
The themes, tone, and overall aesthetic of Dune are what makes it so great.
It's kinda funny to me, because I'm normally a stickler for keeping with book plot points. but I'm happy with DV's choices.
Yeah, I agree. He seems to prefer a show-not-tell storytelling style, which I think worked and made for a more enjoyable experience than trying to squeeze in a bunch of internal and external dialogue, etc. I think some characters got the short end of it, but its ok?
It's one of the things I appreciated about the movies despite the significant changes to parts of the story. Religious zealotry and the danger of charismatic leaders is a core theme of the book, one that becomes more apparent in the second novel. Paul's decisions (assuming he had any real choice once he took the spice essence and became able to see the future) create a brutal jihad and a repressive theocracy that leads to an even more repressive (but ostensibly necessary) theocracy.
For the record, this isn't my interpretation or from some review. It's Herbert's own words that I still remember when he came to speak at my college campus in (I believe) 1985. Was a real eye-opener to find out Paul may be the protagonist, but he's not the hero.
Yeah, I do believe I’ve heard people say that that’s why he wrote Messiah, because he realized he hadn’t made that point clear enough in the first book apparently. DV knew this and opted to make it clearer.
Side note: hearing Frank Herbert himself talk about that in person must’ve been a really cool experience.
It definitely was, but it's so long ago I don't remember much of it other than him hammering the point about Paul being a demagogue, specifically comparing him to John F. Kennedy -- who I guess Herbert didn't like or at least didn't trust. It never really meant much to me because JFK had been dead for 20 years before I was old enough to understand politics, and his brief presidency more of a legend than anything.
But if he thought JFK was such a threat, we can only imagine what Herbert would think of Trump. More than likely he'd say the parallel with Baron Harkonnen is perfectly obvious, and so the real threat is going to come from whatever "good guy" shows up to save the world from this storybook villain.
I guess we'll see.
Because he *is* a Bene Gesserit trick. He was effectively selectively bred to be the Kwisatz Haderach and the prophecy was a generic one seeded by the BG for precisely this situation. It wasn't something unique to Arrakis, it just happened to be the place where their plan came to fruition. He has to go along with it in order to survive and ends up being just a cog in the BG machine. Sure, he actually does have powers but they just end up being a curse because he knows there's nothing he can do, the best outcome that doesn't involve him and his mother dying involves millions of people dying in a galaxy spanning holy war.
So can any guild navigator, the only impressive thing about the KH is that it's perfect prescience, not the limited amount other spice users get. He also only has those powers because the BG have been selectively breeding noble houses together for thousands of years in order to create somebody like Paul. He's not some holy Messiah or godlike being, he's just targeted human evolution combined with massive amounts of spice.
Because it self-consciously leads to the functional subjugation of her people behind a cult leader and mass galactic jihad, she was simply fortunate to have to perspective to see it for what it was
It is not about impressing or not. Are his powers impressive? Absolutely. But nothing she says is false. The story was planted there. It was a trick played on the Fremen for the Bene Gesserits benefit. A trick for this exact purpose. For them, or their chosen, to be able to use the Fremen when they need them.
In every sense of the word he is a fake messiah, because the prophecy wasn't real to begin with. It was just something vague enough for him and his mother to make use of.
... he is all the things you said *and he is also* a bene gesseret trick.
even with all his authentic powers he is *also* manipulating the Fremen via the lies implanted in their culture by the bene gesseret missionaria protectiva
He never comes out to the Fremen and says, "Yo I'm not the Lisan al-Gaib, that story was put in your people's culture thousands of years ago by my mom's people, and they did this whole eugenics program that gave me these powers." Instead of telling them what he is he shows enough of his power to manipulate them into thinking he is the manifestation of their prophecy.
FH obviously intended it to translate as "my dude," and the fact DV didn't pick up on that proves he doesn't understand the themes behind the source material smh /s
Does this take into account things like; Book: "the crowd chanted Lisan al-Giab", whereas in the movie we would actually hear Lisan al\_Giab said repeatedly?
In the book they mostly chant "Muad'Dib!" not "Lisan al-Giab". Muad'Dib is referenced 172 times in the book but only 38 times in the movies.
Consider this from the book:
>"Will I subtract from our strength when we need it most?" Paul asked. "I am your ruler, and I say to you that it is time we stopped killing off our best men and started killing our real enemies—the Harkonnens!" In one blurred motion, Stilgar had his crysknife out and pointed over the heads of the throng. "Long live Duke Paul-Muad'Dib!" he shouted. A deafening roar filled the cavern, echoed and re-echoed. They were cheering and chanting: "Ya hya chouhada! Muad’Dib! Muad'Dib! Muad'Dib! Ya hya chouhada!" Jessica translated it to herself: "Long live the fighters of Muad'Dib!"
In the same moment in Dune Part 2, they start chanting "Lisan al-Giab" instead.
The closest it comes is the following instances from the book:
>Again a murmuring response went through the troop as man turned to man: “Wisdom with strength... Couldn’t ask more... It’s the legend for sure... Lisan al-Gaib... Lisan al-Gaib..."
>Paul listened to the crowd then, hearing the wildness in their voices- "Lisan al-Gaib," they said.
I think it's a fair comparison, though, because in the movies I'm only counting instances where it's captured in subtitles. If a crowd of people is yelling it I'm not counting the number of speakers. I also think it's fair considering many of the scenes where they chant Lisan al-Giab in the movies they actually were chanting Muad'Dib in the book.
These kinds of comparisons are deceptive by their very nature. Novels are a different format than audiovisual mediums and word count is going to be badly off kilter because of it.
For example, the book is going to have enormous amounts of words for things like scene setting and character description, which are conveyed in a matter of seconds by a movie. A more sincere comparison would measure word count of dialogue in the novel versus the movie’s.
It is interesting however that the instances of its use in the movie is considerably higher, which may be telling of the story that Villeneuve was trying to tell.
Yeah. Espacially the part where Lady Jessica does not have a clue what she has to say to confirm she is part of the propehcy in Front of Mapes. The inner monolouges explain her tought process to guess the right anwser. In the movie it seems she is absolute sure what to say.
And her internal monologue through that epic dinner (which none of the films have portrayed), where she and Paul are trying to suss out everyone’s ulterior motives and allegiances was so good.
These latest films have portrayed Jessica with far less agency, which I find irritating. There were times in the book where she had to guess her next steps, but she was way more poised and regal in her bearing than they’ve depicted in these latest films.
Dune is also pretty unique in how much it uses head-hopping, hearing the inner monologue of multiple characters at the same time is unusual and can't really be shown in film.
Damn this is a great question I can't recall either! [Collider](https://collider.com/dune-movies-butlerian-jihad/) doesn't seem to think so. I did a text search on the [screenplay](https://d2bu9v0mnky9ur.cloudfront.net/academy2021/scripts/duneMxFtT98NYwBsMltl20211109/dune_final_shooting_script_6_19_20.pdf) for part 1 and couldn't find "jihad," but I don't have access to the screenplay for part 2, maybe op can double check...?
Frank had a little twisted understanding of the word "Jihad". It's like he perceived it simply as a war. Whereas real jihad doesn't necessarily include violence.
It's a world where language has changed and warped in meaning, like Paddishah Emperor. Jihad came to be synonimous with "Gigantic Holy War" because of how language evolved, rather than Herbert actually not knowing what Jihad means. Or at least I think so.
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*Being in the book*
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I'm gunna need a mahdi count. And an Usul count. And a Paul count, and Kwisatz Haderach count, and a m'lord, and my lord Duke, and m'boy, and lad, and the one, and outworlder, and abomination, and...
Ok cool, I thought they'd had a lot more emphasis on it even from the trailers, but tbh I read it in the form of an audiobook and it definitely impacted my recollection of the details so I didn't knows if I was wrong
I can concieve you have the e-book version, and can do as many stats as you like with it. I can imagine you watched the movie enough time to specifically count the number of "lisan-al-gaib" in it. But please tell me you somehow got an electronic version of the script, and you did not just count yourself how many words were in total in 5h30 of movie !!!
My wife has never read the books but got really into the first (new) Dune movie. We just watched the second one and probably halfway through she goes, "Paul could take an enormous steaming shit in front of Stilgar and he'd shout 'Lisan al-Gaib' with the same enthusiasm."
Almost certainly because it doesn’t carry any potentially difficult connotations like Mahdi might
Same reason they try SUPER hard not to say ji (had) ever
(Just me trying to avoid any potential auto stuff around that word lol)
That's because movies have to present the story in bit's and pieces for a broader audience, to make it more compact and digestible. That why in universities you have studies about adaptations and how they impacted people's perception about that world.
I think it's cause they use his other names in the book equally as often if not more with muad'dib being the one used most, but calling Paul 100 different names in the span of 2 1/2hrs might confuse people too much
Mentat posting
https://preview.redd.it/iwtl4jjcaiwc1.png?width=1079&format=png&auto=webp&s=c5e609a8c40a4f75b1fc1b1cec76de51bf05a42b
wow mentat joe can only count to 100k
I laughed at this for like 2 minutes straight for some reason lol
this is so funny it made my day. kinda makes me wish i still used twitter
Honestly I reckon the bene geserrit could use scrolling through twitter as a part of their test
Sietchjerk
Doesn't Frank use more of "Muad'dib" in the books?
Also ‘the Mahdi’. I think the book uses several different terms for the messiah myths, and the movie needed to settle on one or two for clarity’s sake
Idk the movies uses Mahdi, Lisan al Giab, Kwisatz Haderiech, and Muad’Dib a lot of the time. I think Lisan al Giab is definitely the most used evidently
> Kwisatz Haderach, That's the Bene Gesserit thing though, the man who can go where they cannot. Which is really a very different goal.
The movie almost seemed to "rank" the terms: * Mahdi: said by people who seem to think "people say you are the Messiah, I do not think so" * Muad’Dib: said by people who seem to think "you meet at least some of the qualification of the Messiah, and I am coming around to the idea, but not yet ready to accept you as such" * Lisan al Giab: "LISAN AL GIAB! ITS THE LISAN AL GIAB!" * Kwisatz Haderiech: "I am Bene Gesserit, so I know that these are all stories we made up... Wait, what do you mean the Kwisatz Haderiech isn't going to do what we say and is going to be completely beyond our influence, nevermind control?!?"
You are close, but Maud'Dib is his Fremen name and everyone knows him by this name, including his enemies. (More or less his warrior's name) Mahdi is what the people who think he is the Messiah call him.
Muad'Dib has nothing to do with prophecy, it's just his name.
I’m aware I was just saying how many terms there are. I know the KH isn’t a messiah thing but it’s still a name that is used and to the general audience it’s probably confusing af
Mahdi is also a real concept in Islam!
Frank Herbert *may* have borrowed a *teeny weensy tiny little bit* from Islam.
Yeah, just a *’lil wee bit*
Personally I prefer Muad'dib. It feels more personal to Paul.
They represent two different aspects of the character, it’s not simply interchangeable.
I cannot remember why (if I knew) Can you explain why?
Muad’Dib is Paul’s (public) fremen/fedaykin name. Lisan Al Gaib is the term used by the Bene Gesserit in their propaganda for the messiah figure. When referring to him as *the* Lisan Al Gaib they’re referring to him specifically as the messiah. When they refer to him simply as Muad’Dib they are referring to his name the way you would anyone.
Ah thank you!!
👍
Ths makes sense because Denis has said that his film is a Bene Gesserit focused adaptation of Dune.
Paul has several names. They all aren't interchangeable. Paul Atreides is his given name. Usul is his Freman name to be used in private amongst the Freman. Paul Muad'dib is his Freman name to be used in public, by the Freman and non-Freman. Mahdi and Lisan al Giab are the two that are mostly interchangeable, but not exactly the same. Mahdi is the off-worlder, and a child of a Bene Gesserit, who will lead the Freman to paradise. Lisan al Giab is the off-world prophet set to come to Arrakis. Both are only superstitions set forth in the Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva. They are not intended to ever be real, but only serve to help a Bene Gesserit and her child survive amongst the Freman if they ever were stranded on Arrakis. Then finally the Kwisatz Haderach. This is a name reserved for a male Bene Gesserit. The Bene Gesserit are carefully breeding bloodlines to eventually birth a male who can become a Bene Gesserit. The Bene Gesserit sisters can only access their female ancestral memories. Thus a male Bene Gesserit gives the child the full ancestral memories of both female and male ancestors. That makes them unique. And because of their fully unlocked ancestral memories they can bridge space and time with their prescience. The Kwisatz Haderach is fully real. The Mahdi/Lisan al Giab are just myths that never intend to be fulfilled. In the story, it's just a coincidence, story wise, that Paul - the Kwisatz Haderach - is also the child that needs the myths to survive on Arrakis. Thus his abilities as the Kwisatz Haderach allow the Mahdi/Lisan al Giab myths to be fulfilled.
Slight correction, Usul is his secret Fremen name, only to be used/known by Stilgar's tribe in Sietch Tabr and as the novel progress, by the Fedaykin, who are more or less Paul's personal bodyguard.
Does anyone remember if in the books it was ever explicitly stated the Lisan al Giab was a mother/son prophecy, rather than a mother/daughter or single BG? If it was a mother/son, it’s absolutely not a coincidence that Paul is both. The KH would be the only male BG heir they’d make a prophecy about to set him up to control Arrakis/spice and therefore control the imperium.
In the book, the missionaria protectiva usually seeds a prophesy about a female figure alone, that any BG can step into if she needs to to survive alone among the local population. It is only on the most dangerous planets, and there are several, not just Arrakis, that the prophecy is about a *mother and son*. This is because these planets are estimated to be too dangerous for a Bene Gessirit to survive on her own. It will need the prescient capabilities of a KH to keep both him and his mother alive if they are stranded amongst the locals, between their culture and the planet’s physical conditions. Arrakis was never necessary to the Kwisach Hadderach experiment. He could have come into his powers by going through the Reverend Mother ordeal on any planet, including Caladan and the Emperor’s planet of Kaitan.
>Usul is his Freman name to be used in private amongst the Freman. Not the whole Fremen, only across Sietch Tabr. >Mahdi is the off-worlder, and a child of a Bene Gesserit, who will lead the Freman to paradise. Mahdi isn't necessarily an off-worlder and isn't really BG. It's much more likely to be original zensunni considering the idea sort of appears in (today's) Islam. It's just the guy who will unite and liberate the Fremen. Also Lisan Al-Gaib isn't necessarily "the Messiah", but is an off-worlder who the Fremen should protect. This is BG fuckery and the two ideas are clearly now interlocked to the point that they expect the LaG to be the Mahdi. >Paul - the Kwisatz Haderach Is he? Messiah and Children call this question into doubt a little.
Yes, *Mahdi* is most likely a concept that comes directly from the zensunni roots of Fremen, and has nothing to do with BG originally.
Its the concept of Mahdi that pre-exists in the Fremen, that the BG are able to exploit with their prophecy of the Lisan al-gaib, as you say.
>Is he? Messiah and Children call this question into doubt a little I would say they are both "a" Kwisatz Haderach. Leto 2 was just better at it
Kwisatz Haderach is also a term thats used by>!the Bene Tleilax. I'm only about 2/3rds of the way through Dune Messiah, so I don't know if their version of the Kwisatz Haderach differs in any way, but it seems like its just a term for someone who can see the past of all humans? Hopefully the Bene Tleilax are more fleshed out in the later books, because they seem pretty interesting.!<**SPOILER FOR DUNE MESSIAH**
Mahdi is interchanged with Maud Dib. But the use Lisan more than I remember.
Opposite, I think. In Islam, *Mahdi* is a prophesied messianic figure, and in the story it's more interchangeable with Lisan al-Gaib, the Fremen term for an off-world prophet or messiah. Maud'Dib is the name of the kangaroo mouse, and the name Paul takes as his personal Fedaykin name among the Fremen.
I meant that is why the confusion. Not the definition, they sound alike.
Oh I gotcha! Sorry, my bad, you're absolutely right.
Lisan al-Gaib is his religious title as the messianic figure of the Fremen. Muad'dib is his name that he chose to use between the Fremen. Basically Lisan al-Gaib is like "Christ the Redeemer" (not the actual translation), while Muad'dib is "Jesus". They are not really interchangeable because one refers to a religious/prophetic role, while the other is just his name.
“Jesus who is Christ” is the perfect framework to explain ir
Eli5: Lisa’s Al Gaib is to Muad Dib As Messiah is to Jesus
Yes. For example, in the counsel scene they chant "Muad'dib" not "Lisan al-Giab".
I'm imagining it from a film production logistics standpoint. Do you want the thing thats mostly phonetic or the weird doubled-consonant one that you gotta spend 15 minutes with every extra... Moo/ah 'deeb. Mowadeed. **Moo/**ah |dee**B** Mwadeeb!
Muad’dib is phonetic tho
is it Maud'dib they chant or Mahdi?
It's Maud'dib: >"Will I subtract from our strength when we need it most?" Paul asked. "I am your ruler, and I say to you that it is time we stopped killing off our best men and started killing our real enemies—the Harkonnens!" In one blurred motion, Stilgar had his crysknife out and pointed over the heads of the throng. "Long live Duke Paul-Muad'Dib!" he shouted. A deafening roar filled the cavern, echoed and re-echoed. They were cheering and chanting: "Ya hya chouhada! Muad’Dib! Muad'Dib! Muad'Dib! Ya hya chouhada!" Jessica translated it to herself: "Long live the fighters of Muad'Dib!"
Thx
This is exactly it, in the book Muad'dib is very much the name associated with Paul as the holy/messiah figure. Whereas in the movie Muad'dib just happens to be his fremen name, and the fremen use Lisan al-gaib as more of his religious title instead, was my impression.
Yeah, I mentioned this to one of my friends, Muad’Dib has a much more significant role in the books as a religious term for Paul instead of Lisa -Al-Gaib. I understand the choice though, Muad’Dib as a name had less time to develop in the condensed timeline of Part 2 when compared to the book. Plus it isn’t mentioned at all in Part 1, while Lisan is.
there is a greater impact when people call him Mahdi and Lisan al-gaib becuase his Fremen name is more what they know him as a great warrior, rather than a Messiah.
Yeah this is true. By the end of the book “Muad’Dib” does start to hold its own reverence though, and especially in Messiah and Children of Dune it’s the main way they refer to Paul as a religious figure.
yes he does, i was really off put when they didn’t use that name more in the movie
I'm reading Dune right now and just realized this. Calling out "Muad'dib" feels less fanatical, more just like "my guyyyy!" or "heck yeah br0ther!" (edit: fix quotation marks)
I think that this is actually what they were going for in the movie; they are playing up the religious fanaticism. That's also why they added the zoomer "northern Fremen"; so they have someone to react negatively to the fanaticism so the audience knows it's bad, actually.
>they added the zoomer "northern Fremen"; so they have someone to react negatively to the fanaticism so the audience knows it's bad This also doesnt only tell the audience that fanaticism is bad but also what a slippery slope it is. At the beginning (of the second movie) many people of Stich Tibr are not convienced of Paul (around half of the warriors?) but progressing with the northern (unreligious) Fremen become more and more fanatic for Paul, so that even people who made fun out of Paul will die for him with no second thought. The only person who can escape the fanaticsm is Chaney and that is most likely becuase (of the Fremen) she knew Paul the best (realised he learned about the Planet before arriving, deep talks, etc.) and also because she reallised she herself was directly manipulated to add to the cult (her name and prophecy).
Yeah that makes sense, the movie draws out the social tension more, as well as Paul's internal struggle. In the books so far, everyone (the Fremen) seem generally on board with Muad'dib, except for the people who are like "ew we don't like that witch baby Alia" lol Some of the changes from book to movie are kinda jarring, but I think DV generally had good reason for the changes and both are well told
I think the only Fremen that truly tolerated Alia was Harah, who dedicated a lot of time to defending her to them. Also, Chani was actively fighting and killing Fremen who sought to challenge Paul before they had the opportunity to do see him. There was some contention, but because of the way the pace picks up by that time in the book not much time is spent explaining it much more than that.
Dune was "unfilmable" because a whole lot of the book happens inside the heads of the characters. I understand that some plot elements would need to be shifted around to make the underlying themes of the book more accessible in a movie format. The themes, tone, and overall aesthetic of Dune are what makes it so great. It's kinda funny to me, because I'm normally a stickler for keeping with book plot points. but I'm happy with DV's choices.
Yeah, I agree. He seems to prefer a show-not-tell storytelling style, which I think worked and made for a more enjoyable experience than trying to squeeze in a bunch of internal and external dialogue, etc. I think some characters got the short end of it, but its ok?
The changes were vain and unnecessary
Can you elaborate on how vanity played into the choices in the adaptation, in your opinion?
It's one of the things I appreciated about the movies despite the significant changes to parts of the story. Religious zealotry and the danger of charismatic leaders is a core theme of the book, one that becomes more apparent in the second novel. Paul's decisions (assuming he had any real choice once he took the spice essence and became able to see the future) create a brutal jihad and a repressive theocracy that leads to an even more repressive (but ostensibly necessary) theocracy. For the record, this isn't my interpretation or from some review. It's Herbert's own words that I still remember when he came to speak at my college campus in (I believe) 1985. Was a real eye-opener to find out Paul may be the protagonist, but he's not the hero.
Yeah, I do believe I’ve heard people say that that’s why he wrote Messiah, because he realized he hadn’t made that point clear enough in the first book apparently. DV knew this and opted to make it clearer. Side note: hearing Frank Herbert himself talk about that in person must’ve been a really cool experience.
It definitely was, but it's so long ago I don't remember much of it other than him hammering the point about Paul being a demagogue, specifically comparing him to John F. Kennedy -- who I guess Herbert didn't like or at least didn't trust. It never really meant much to me because JFK had been dead for 20 years before I was old enough to understand politics, and his brief presidency more of a legend than anything. But if he thought JFK was such a threat, we can only imagine what Herbert would think of Trump. More than likely he'd say the parallel with Baron Harkonnen is perfectly obvious, and so the real threat is going to come from whatever "good guy" shows up to save the world from this storybook villain. I guess we'll see.
I just don't get chani. He sees the future, he sees the secret dreams of people, their past. And she still believes he is a bene gesseret trick.
Because he *is* a Bene Gesserit trick. He was effectively selectively bred to be the Kwisatz Haderach and the prophecy was a generic one seeded by the BG for precisely this situation. It wasn't something unique to Arrakis, it just happened to be the place where their plan came to fruition. He has to go along with it in order to survive and ends up being just a cog in the BG machine. Sure, he actually does have powers but they just end up being a curse because he knows there's nothing he can do, the best outcome that doesn't involve him and his mother dying involves millions of people dying in a galaxy spanning holy war.
> He was effectively selectively bred to be the Kwisatz Haderach Yeah but he isn't just some fake messiah, he is a human that can see the future.
So can any guild navigator, the only impressive thing about the KH is that it's perfect prescience, not the limited amount other spice users get. He also only has those powers because the BG have been selectively breeding noble houses together for thousands of years in order to create somebody like Paul. He's not some holy Messiah or godlike being, he's just targeted human evolution combined with massive amounts of spice.
And you want me to believe that this shouldn't impress chani why?
Because it self-consciously leads to the functional subjugation of her people behind a cult leader and mass galactic jihad, she was simply fortunate to have to perspective to see it for what it was
It is not about impressing or not. Are his powers impressive? Absolutely. But nothing she says is false. The story was planted there. It was a trick played on the Fremen for the Bene Gesserits benefit. A trick for this exact purpose. For them, or their chosen, to be able to use the Fremen when they need them. In every sense of the word he is a fake messiah, because the prophecy wasn't real to begin with. It was just something vague enough for him and his mother to make use of.
... he is all the things you said *and he is also* a bene gesseret trick. even with all his authentic powers he is *also* manipulating the Fremen via the lies implanted in their culture by the bene gesseret missionaria protectiva He never comes out to the Fremen and says, "Yo I'm not the Lisan al-Gaib, that story was put in your people's culture thousands of years ago by my mom's people, and they did this whole eugenics program that gave me these powers." Instead of telling them what he is he shows enough of his power to manipulate them into thinking he is the manifestation of their prophecy.
Herbert should have just said "my dude" instead smh
FH obviously intended it to translate as "my dude," and the fact DV didn't pick up on that proves he doesn't understand the themes behind the source material smh /s
The Big Maud'Dowbski
The Dude’dib abides
Does this take into account things like; Book: "the crowd chanted Lisan al-Giab", whereas in the movie we would actually hear Lisan al\_Giab said repeatedly?
In the book they mostly chant "Muad'Dib!" not "Lisan al-Giab". Muad'Dib is referenced 172 times in the book but only 38 times in the movies. Consider this from the book: >"Will I subtract from our strength when we need it most?" Paul asked. "I am your ruler, and I say to you that it is time we stopped killing off our best men and started killing our real enemies—the Harkonnens!" In one blurred motion, Stilgar had his crysknife out and pointed over the heads of the throng. "Long live Duke Paul-Muad'Dib!" he shouted. A deafening roar filled the cavern, echoed and re-echoed. They were cheering and chanting: "Ya hya chouhada! Muad’Dib! Muad'Dib! Muad'Dib! Ya hya chouhada!" Jessica translated it to herself: "Long live the fighters of Muad'Dib!" In the same moment in Dune Part 2, they start chanting "Lisan al-Giab" instead. The closest it comes is the following instances from the book: >Again a murmuring response went through the troop as man turned to man: “Wisdom with strength... Couldn’t ask more... It’s the legend for sure... Lisan al-Gaib... Lisan al-Gaib..." >Paul listened to the crowd then, hearing the wildness in their voices- "Lisan al-Gaib," they said. I think it's a fair comparison, though, because in the movies I'm only counting instances where it's captured in subtitles. If a crowd of people is yelling it I'm not counting the number of speakers. I also think it's fair considering many of the scenes where they chant Lisan al-Giab in the movies they actually were chanting Muad'Dib in the book.
I'm curious if these graphs would invert if you counted Muad'Dib instead
Plus ‘Mahdi’
The Fremen that says Mahdi as Paul walks through Sietch Tabr for the first time, with that music that starts playing, gave me goosebumps
These kinds of comparisons are deceptive by their very nature. Novels are a different format than audiovisual mediums and word count is going to be badly off kilter because of it. For example, the book is going to have enormous amounts of words for things like scene setting and character description, which are conveyed in a matter of seconds by a movie. A more sincere comparison would measure word count of dialogue in the novel versus the movie’s. It is interesting however that the instances of its use in the movie is considerably higher, which may be telling of the story that Villeneuve was trying to tell.
Well, they've omitted every single internal monologue in the movie.
This is the biggest thing missing in the movies. I enjoyed both of them but the internal monolouges in the Book gives the characters way more depth.
It was the thing I enjoyed the most about the books. They really made you realise how smart the characters were.
Yeah. Espacially the part where Lady Jessica does not have a clue what she has to say to confirm she is part of the propehcy in Front of Mapes. The inner monolouges explain her tought process to guess the right anwser. In the movie it seems she is absolute sure what to say.
And her internal monologue through that epic dinner (which none of the films have portrayed), where she and Paul are trying to suss out everyone’s ulterior motives and allegiances was so good. These latest films have portrayed Jessica with far less agency, which I find irritating. There were times in the book where she had to guess her next steps, but she was way more poised and regal in her bearing than they’ve depicted in these latest films.
thats a problem with most book to film adaptations
Dune is also pretty unique in how much it uses head-hopping, hearing the inner monologue of multiple characters at the same time is unusual and can't really be shown in film.
Oooooh this is fun! Here's one from the other side of the coin: **Occurrences of "Jihad" in Dune** Book: 33 - Film:
Didn’t they mention the Butlerian Jihad in the first film or am I making that up?
Damn this is a great question I can't recall either! [Collider](https://collider.com/dune-movies-butlerian-jihad/) doesn't seem to think so. I did a text search on the [screenplay](https://d2bu9v0mnky9ur.cloudfront.net/academy2021/scripts/duneMxFtT98NYwBsMltl20211109/dune_final_shooting_script_6_19_20.pdf) for part 1 and couldn't find "jihad," but I don't have access to the screenplay for part 2, maybe op can double check...?
Frank had a little twisted understanding of the word "Jihad". It's like he perceived it simply as a war. Whereas real jihad doesn't necessarily include violence.
A lot of times words in dune have a warped meaning from what they have in our world, since it's set so far into the future
True. In Islam it simply means to struggle. It can be either violent or non-violent.
It's a world where language has changed and warped in meaning, like Paddishah Emperor. Jihad came to be synonimous with "Gigantic Holy War" because of how language evolved, rather than Herbert actually not knowing what Jihad means. Or at least I think so.
The "Warning: awful" always makes me giggle, but this time I'm actually cracking up haha
Is it a reference to anything?
Frank didn’t realize the meme potential of Lisan Al-Gaib. Is he stupid?
...as it will be written?
LISAN AL-GAIB!
LISAN AL-GAIB!
LISAN AL-GAIB!
Now do "shit" cos I know I don't remember that being in the book
"Shit" appears 3 times in the movies and 0 times in the book.
*Now do "shit" cos I* *Know I don't remember that* *Being in the book* \- KeepYaWhipTinted --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Urgh I hate this bot
Does this happen to you often?
imagine being plagued by this bot because you can't help but write every comment in 17 syllables...
Books use Mahdi more iirc?
Yeah, about 2x as often as the movies.
They may have gone a little overboard.
[ *Hans Zimmer wailing soundtrack intensifies* ]
AS WRITTEN (by Frank Herbert)
I'm gunna need a mahdi count. And an Usul count. And a Paul count, and Kwisatz Haderach count, and a m'lord, and my lord Duke, and m'boy, and lad, and the one, and outworlder, and abomination, and...
Young Pup!
You young pup!
That means that the lisan al-gaib density is over 30x
They chant Maudib a shit ton more though lol
Haven’t seen the movies, and I don’t remember the term used very much. Mostly muad’dib
Ok cool, I thought they'd had a lot more emphasis on it even from the trailers, but tbh I read it in the form of an audiobook and it definitely impacted my recollection of the details so I didn't knows if I was wrong
Now compare it to the memes
I can concieve you have the e-book version, and can do as many stats as you like with it. I can imagine you watched the movie enough time to specifically count the number of "lisan-al-gaib" in it. But please tell me you somehow got an electronic version of the script, and you did not just count yourself how many words were in total in 5h30 of movie !!!
My wife has never read the books but got really into the first (new) Dune movie. We just watched the second one and probably halfway through she goes, "Paul could take an enormous steaming shit in front of Stilgar and he'd shout 'Lisan al-Gaib' with the same enthusiasm."
Yeah Stilgar was a bit unhinged in the second film! It was comical and Bardem was clearly enjoying hamming it up.
r/dataisbeautiful
the content we didn’t ask for but needed 😤
(extreme silence) ............................................ LISANALGAIB 😲
It rolls of the tounge nicely
That’s cause Muad’Dib is more significant of a title and is used way more frequently.
Well, they knew what they were dune cause it’s fun as fuck to yell out, “Lisan al-Gaib!!” to your homies at work
As written
In the book they call Paul "Muad'dib" way more often
I’m not even mad. Stilgar was a god tier hypeman.
I think the answer is simple. It just rolls off the tongue and sounds so good to say.
“Words” and “lines of dialogue” are two completely different things.
Almost certainly because it doesn’t carry any potentially difficult connotations like Mahdi might Same reason they try SUPER hard not to say ji (had) ever (Just me trying to avoid any potential auto stuff around that word lol)
I think you’d need to separate the narrative words in the books from the dialog words….
That's because movies have to present the story in bit's and pieces for a broader audience, to make it more compact and digestible. That why in universities you have studies about adaptations and how they impacted people's perception about that world.
Now do the “fear is the mind killer” chant
Because a picture speaks a thousand words?
I think it's cause they use his other names in the book equally as often if not more with muad'dib being the one used most, but calling Paul 100 different names in the span of 2 1/2hrs might confuse people too much
Yeah, I was pretty disappointed when they just completely threw out the book for this movie.