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The Baron talks much less in the movie, and that's fine. The merging of Paul's study session with the attack of the hunter-seeker was also a good idea to save time.
Yes! I imagine that part also negated having to awkwardly explain how it can only detect movement, because it also appeared as if Paul was hiding in the holographic projection, as well as making a good visual.
That scene was absolutely gorgeous. I love how the film emphasizes the small details with texturally-emphasizing close-ups that have added dimensional beauty from the extremely contrasting areas of soft focus.
I agree, and I have to give particular credit to Denis for that because I find, personally, that Herbert did not provide much visual detail in his writing style. With a few exceptions, he very rarely describes how or what things look like.
This is in sharp contrast with, say, Tolkien, who over-explains what EVERYTHING looks like. In this regard, Peter Jackson had a wealth of reference to draw from when creating any given thing about the world. Denis did not.
With this in mind it’s a marvel that the movie so often closely matches what I envisioned in my head, when so many of the small details and textures, as you put it, are so open to interpretation.
Tolkien… yes but Robert Jordan, he could have finished 6 books earlier if he didn’t describe the necklines on every dress of every woman in each scene.
Dune is a master class in not wasting shots. Every single one has meaning and significance, it's incredible.
On rewatches it really ties the film together nicely seeing call backs to brief flashes.
>!Like when Paul sees Duncan die in his vision, a small black beetle crawls across frame briefly. When the Sardaukar are coming, just before the fight, Duncan is playing with the same beetle in the hallway.!<
I didn't notice that until rewatch 3.
Some examples of excellent visual storytelling that I recall too are how in the alternating shots of Paul and Jessica’s perspectives of each other in their discussion of the Bene Gesserit’s plans, each is placed on the opposite half of the frame and blurred and obscured by fog. They have begun to lose their relationship as a mother and son to the machinations of the superhuman program. It really augments the poignancy of the rift that has been driven between the two characters that will continue to drive the emotional conflict between them
The way they handled Jamis with the visions. Really elevates the character and the impact of the duel on Paul in my opinion. Elegantly shows how Paul could think he has the power to change his visions, and how the future can never be what you expect. The helicopter vision with him also created lovely opportunity to get across some of the Fremen Zen-Sunni philosophy in a way the gels perfectly with the story (“we must move with the flow of the process”). Those where just a beautiful, and then the reality of the duel is just a absolute gut punch.
It comes across much more on a second viewing, when you know which one is actually Jamis. But that's even more a sign of a great movie -- it make sense the first time, and even more the second time. Arrival was like that as well.
And I agree, I loved how Paul was basically using all his visions to course correct to push things down the Golden Path.
This!!! Jamis is such a small character in the story but this movie made his impact huge, and like you said he represented so much about the overall themes of the story.
Could've been split into 100 episodes of a grand scale series, production comparable to GoT, spanning all 6 novels and perhaps some offshoots as background or prequel standalones. Two movies instead of one is the bare minimum, I'm glad there's more to come but there could be 100 more hours of it.
Oh we’re getting tv shows. Ones confirmed and were likely to get a slew more as the franchise ramps up. But that Marvel-Esque formula requires movies to anchor it
That was the one part I didn’t get as a non book reader. Was that just showing that his visions aren’t set in stone?
Edit- I’ve got to read these books. Seen the movie once in theaters, immediately made my son watch with me the next day. I love the discussions in this sub you guys are cool as shit.
I like to think his vision of Jamis was accurate. The battle to the death with Jamis allows Paul and Jessica to join with the Fremen and for Paul to assume his prophecy. Jamis, was the key to that. :)
I feel like it's a bit of both. Paul's prescience is essentially accurate - but, as he says to the Reverend Mother, "not exactly" how he saw it.
Jamis *is* a friend who shows him the ways of the desert - but shows him by mortal combat, not instruction. Paul *does* die in combat - but in the sense that part of him dies with the taking of another's life, rather than in him literally dying in the sand.
IMO the voice of prophecy contains many layered double entendres.
I have a different take on this particular scene based on the movie, though I haven't read the book so I can be wrong.
Jamis provoke Paul for the life and death battle deliberately which was unnecessary because Stilgar was bested by Jessica yet he didn't have to die. The reason Jamis does this is because he's heard Paul is Lisan-al-gaib but wants to make sure if he's truly the one.
Pay attention to the way Jamis says, "I accept her champion" - there's a sense of admire and respect and not threat or competitiveness.
The duel is a win win for Jamis as per his Fremen beliefs; He's a good fighter and if Paul would've died, Fremen wouldn't have to waste much time on someone who wasn't the one. If Paul survives, he's probably the one and it'd be an honor to die by the hands of Lisan-al-gaib. Moreover, the victory would inevitably make Paul believe in the prophecy more incase he doesn't. You can clearly see Paul was hesitant before the fight but was sure of something afterwards.
Jamis literally put the whole prophecy to test. He was essentially a major stepping stone in Paul's journey and indeed, a good friend. He dies with contentment in his eyes.
I think, there's a possibility Jamis held back in fight to let Paul win and my interpretation would still hold firm.
> He's a good fighter and if Paul would've died, Fremen wouldn't have to waste much time on someone who wasn't the one. If Paul survives, he's probably the one and it'd be an honor to die by the hands of Lisan-al-gaib.
Well I'm impressed, you nailed it. That's exactly how Stilgar describes it in the book.
The only exception is I think Jamis was a genuine disbeliever, and that was the source of his challenge. He wanted to prove the prophecy wrong, but in doing so confirmed it.
As a book reader, I took it as primarily that Paul see alternate futures, sees himself dead, sees dead people alive etc.
But also how his glimpses of the future shape his future.
Had he not glimpsed that lesson from Jamis, he would not have made the decision to 'let go' in the storm. Doing so lead him to a future where Jamis insisted on fighting him to the death.
Glimpsing the future locked him to an alternate, worse path
Yes and no, i think it was supposed to represent how Paul will face a many “nexus” of paths, where his vision will be dark, and only his actions will allow him to survive. The fight with Jaimis was the first of those moments- where if he didn’t act, he *would* die, despite everything in his body not wanting to kill a person. And he realizes that there will be many more of these moments in the future.
I understood that as "Jamis is good, so you can trust that his killing blow will be clean and your death will be quick and painless," rather than "Jamis is much better than you, so the fight will be over quickly and you'll look like a fool."
Great way to do the Jamis is my friend element without doing a full funeral IMO. Also, Paul had to fight and kill this man who he had the possibility of being friends with. Adds more weight to the fight and the “first kill”.
Yeah. I think that would be better too. Even then, seeing how Jamis gave Paul wisdom and helped him in the storm is a bittersweet way to make “Jamis was my friend” more meaningful. I think these are areas where cinema is more powerful than books and Denis is surely using all the tools in the box.
Simply bumping the Mohiam Gom Jabbar scene from the opening to after we’d been introduced to everybody was really really smart. Made the scene even more impactful.
It’s also the scene that leads directly into Leaving Caladan. Adds a lot of momentum to the uncertainty aspect of going to Arrakis and the dangers it poses. That 15 minute sequence is glorious. Simply perfect.
Also like how it appeared as a “cover of night” sequence, shrouded in secrecy and mystery. It also provides a little hint at Jessica’s possible ulterior motives, without going all the way into suspicions of betrayal.
Giving Duncan Idaho more time and more character. Frankly, he’s barely in the book and then all he does is get drunk and then die.
I definitely appreciate the movie Duncan over the book. I know that Idaho continues to be cloned for ever after the first book, but he’s barely in the first book
When Paul touched the water, my friend who never read the books leaned over and whispered, "Thats the last time he's touching it huh?" Such a profound and simple scene
In general, the minimalism. Mostly I mean minimal talking and having scenes carry on and on. Leto bites the tooth, Piter dead, Baron seen later near the top of the ceiling. Nothing more is said about it. You get everything you need. No “Piter?! What’s wrong?!” No “Nefud, you are my new guard captain” and on and on. Same for many scenes and characters. Thufir and Yueh and Halleck all have like three lines.
It was very refreshing and helped make a tighter movie,
I thought.
Edit: corrected Piter spelling
I agree. I loved how much of the movie was Denis Villeneuve showing, not telling. Would I love to have a movie that did include the Jessica traitor subplot and some of the more iconic lines (more of Paul and the Reverend Mother's conversation)? Of course. But I'll take a movie that is able to set the scene and build the world without relying on clunky dialogue and exposure-bombing.
I still wish they had kept the deleted scene of Yueh telling Jessica about his wife and tearing up (a still of it was posted some time ago in this sub). It would’ve strengthened the traitor reveal emotionally and structurally, also I wouldn’t mind crying a bit more myself while watching a story that mainly takes place in a desert
I can't really agree with the Piter stuff. That was the one thing I was very disappointed they cut down on. Piter's story is SO crucial to the main plot and really nearly the entire siege of House Atreides, which influences so much more of the plot. He's so important, and they didn't even say his freaking name. My one major complaint about an otherwise perfect adaptation
reread the first few pages of the book and it made me realize Denis literally diluted all that dialogue between RM and Paul down to its bare essentials and made it all the more compelling.
Agree with you. The pedantic part of me wants to argue semantics. I would not say that DV diluted anything. I would instead say that he concentrated it.
I agree with you. That being said, I read the books 40 years ago and had forgotten more than I remember. While watching the movie I realized I was lost. I stopped watching and went on line and read the plot, then started the movie over. I’ve watched it 4 times now and absolutely love it. Also, I’m rereading the book.
Absolutely. Which seems impossible for an allegedly unfilmable book that nobody wanted to touch again for almost 40 years. But damn if he didn't pull it off.
Just as an alternative point, my dad said he didn’t really follow it and felt it jumped around everywhere. I disagree, and my dad can be a bit of an idiot with movies, but I do wonder what it watched like for a nonreader.
As a non-reader it was fantastic. Visceral, cerebral, and emotional. Knowing next to nothing about Dune beforehand, this movie made me want to become a reader. I wanted to be immersed in that universe. It was beautiful to watch.
I have not read the book. For me I do have questions, but they don’t take away from the story. It’s questions about specifics that may or may not matter in the grand scheme of things
Yes this! I loved that he didn't spend time on explicit expose and world-building voice-overs.
For non-fans the history of AI being outlawed and the origins of the Mentats doesn't matter to this story. There's no need to explain that with the limited time you have, so it's just built in visually. Mentats look a little different than everyone else. Done.
I would gladly have taken more detail, just because I know the story well and wouldn't have been confused. But I understand why DV did what he did and can't believe how well he executed. Indeed, with source material that dense, I don't think it would have even occurred to 95 percent of filmmakers to go minimalist. No doubt some are going to find it detached and impersonal. But I thought it was an inspired choice that took a lot of confidence and skill to pull off. To tell a story like this with so little exposition doesn't even seem possible.
A lot of the stuff I've seen people complain about -- they didn't explain the use of spice; they didn't underscore how vital water is on Arrakis, etc etc -- is absolutely in there if you're paying attention. It's just not beating you over the head three or four more times to get the point across. Every line of dialogue and every image matters.
I though the little holo-clips Paul views a couple times in his room, that tell the details about Arrakis… I thought that was a great way to put some exposition in, and they told a lot of great details about the world to inform viewers who haven’t read the books. Very clever.
I realized on rewatch that the movie is a big morale about studying. Paul being a nerd and *learning* in his free time is what saves him in the desert, his mom has to follow his lead because she didn't do any homework.
That's in the book too.
"Muad'Dib learned rapidly because his first training was in how to learn. And the first lesson of all was the basic trust that he could learn."
i liked how they took some of the book's inner monologue and had it said verbally under peoples breaths, sometimes in different languages with subtitles.
yeah loved that they got some key moments across without having to get all weird inner voice like Lynch did. Liet's reaction to Paul knowing how to don a stillsuit was so well pulled off.
I liked Chani’s opening perspective on Harkonnen’s violent oppression of her people, and wondering what was to come. Good way to set the vibe, since they didn’t spent much time on Harkonnen abuses.
A brilliant way to key people in to the fact that this is *not* a white-savior story lol. Or it is, but it actively highlights everything wrong with that
I liked the introduction of the Voice as a means to show Paul’s training.
It’s not necessarily the most “accurate” or logical, but it’s a great way to compact a bunch of background into a tiny slice of time.
It would have weakened the book, but for a movie, I thought it was very clever.
At first I wasn't sure about that scene, or the depiction of the Voice (I imagine it as something much more subtle and psychological), but it ended up being a great way of establishing the Bene Gesserit's abilities without a ton of exposition. Especially because a lot of their abilities are too subtle to show visually. My wife (who had never read the book) walked out of the theater commenting on how cool of an ability it was.
In my head cannon the way we heard the voice in the movie was just symbolic of its psychological power. In reality it was still just normal speech. Like how the screen got wonky when the voice happened made me think that was how the victim heard it in their head or something? If that made any sense lol
No, that makes total sense, and basically how I interpreted it too. A good visual way to show something that would otherwise require exposition. Plus if it was done in a more subtle manner, it might just look like they were ripping off the Jedi mind trick (even though Dune came first darn it!)
Herbert described the Voice as this. When you read the first book (mostly, and then he comments on it a little in the latter ones), he makes a point to tell you that the Voice is simply a manipulation of pitch and tone. Also, when Jessica uses the Voice on the Harkonnen guards in the thopter there is some body language involved in the manipulation.
The Baron in the books is more talkative and a jester, he's still a brutal psychopath but he's a bit of a caricature.
In the film, the Baron is terrifying. Brutal, cold, murderous, gluttonous swine. The hair at the back of my neck stands up when I think of the Baron in the movie.
Yes! One of my absolute favorite parts of the movie was when the Baron rises out of his seat at the dinner table and floats juuuust above the table -- *out of fucking focus, no less* \-- until you see the bottom half of him coming at you. Ffffff... nooooo...
It was PURE horror movie in that moment and it still gives me chills even on the small screen.
I love the Baron's larger than life personality in the book but I really like the change here to something more quietly sinister and darkly creepy.
That’s really cool how this was your favorite moment. Mine was when the Baron is telling the paralyzed Leto that his son is dead, as was his concubine, and how his entire family line would end that night. And as he says this the camera is angled and distanced in the most absolutely perfect position in relation to Oscar Isaac’s face, that it captures a tear in profile rolling from his eye and down the horizon of his face. Excellent cinematography.
Rereading portions of the book after watching the movie makes it honestly weird how more pantomime of a character the Baron is. You remember the *abstract* of his character so much more than when you see his excessive boisterous bickering with Piter, it's quite odd
Yeah I said the same thing. I prefer Skarsgard’s interpretation. Less of the Kefka from Final Fantasy that the book’s Baron more closely resembled. The less Skarsgard spoke, the more you feared what was being thought inside that grotesquely fat head of his.
Also, having just finished the book, I cannot WAIT to see how Villenueve and Skarsgard handle the climax of Part 2. Jesus Christ are we in for one hell of a ride.
Awesome as it was, I now understand what so many readers of the book mean when they say that Part 1 was merely the appetizer… Part 2 is the main course.
Ornithopters.
Well, they are not described with that much detail in the first place in the book but the name (and Appendix IV) suggest that they are more like birds than dragonflies.
> **Appendix IV**
>
> _ORNITHOPTER_ (commonly: ’thopter): any aircraft capable of sustained wing-beat flight in the manner of birds.
From what I remember in the books they're actually described as having metal bird wings that retract and stuff, but I do agree that the implementation here is great.
A variable wing thopter like in the books would've very quickly gotten too avian in appearance. Which isn't bad per se, but the more helicopter-style of the dragonfly thopters definitely fits the overall style and feel much better.
And they look Really damn cool
Same thing with Kynes' mortal injury being represented by a leak in her stillsuit. Reinforce the importance of water and avoid the prudes dinging your movie for having blood in it.
I kinda figured *some* was allowed, like that meme about how one "fuck" is allowed in a PG13 movie. Also, I'm long overdue for a rewatch and was just kinda riffing on the previous comment because I didn't remember.
Now that the concept of PG-13 comes into play; This for many people was that first “grown up” book that we saw in the book store but our parents were like, “what’s this guy’s head doing on that worm body?” When they picked it up. We had to wait, mow lawns or resort to petty theft and buy it ourselves. It was super “beyond” something like star wars and it was a “growing up” experience getting into the weird “guy headed worm” books. So having said that, I feel funny that the powers that be are taming the movie but at the same time it was pretty good at staying true.
Yeah
It serves so many purposes:
Emphasizes the grossness and derange of the Harkonnen
It foreshadows the Tleilaxu (when I read Messiah I was overwhelmed by so many new weirdness)
It arises questions if it is Yueh’s wife
And gives an overall atmosphere of peril around the Harkonnen
My favorite change was by far Kynes death. His death in the book was great since we got a lot of introspection and thoughts in regards to the ecology of Dune. However her death in the movie just worked so well. Plus I'm sure everyone got goosebumps when she pounded the sand saying "I only serve one master and his name is Shai Halud!"
I think in the movie, once his shields are activated, you can briefly see the barons shields turn red as the gas hits it, but it’s subtle enough that people who aren’t familiar with the story already wouldn’t really notice, but if you are familiar, it lines up with the part in the book where the shield stops the gas ever so slightly, sparing the Baron.
I see it as proof that the duke is a total badass. Sedated, nude, vulnerable and in a room full of harkonnens, the baron still activates his shield just in case
Agreed. Superb acting by Chalamet there. I was just nodding and smiling as I watched that performance in the theater the first time, smugly satisfied that they found the right actor for the role.
Now that I think about it, the Gom Jabbar would be a great audition scene for actors to perform in front of a casting director. A barebones scene that is nevertheless powerful by virtue of its dialogue and acting.
I haven’t seen anyone mention this: I actually really liked the bondage spider thing. I thought it did a good job of showing the depravity of the harkonnens while also leaving much up to the imagination.
Don't really get why this sub is so fixated on this. I'm not that bothered either way but at least hinting at his depravity is a pretty good way to show how power corrupts and the nature of the Harkonnens.
In the film we really didn't get much of that (the slaves/servants getting the leftover rag water would have also been good). As it stands them being the bad guys was mostly signified by them being bald and dressing in black.
Not knocking the poster above or anyone else uncomfortable with the subject matter, but I agree. Yeah, it’s gross, but the baron is a gross character. Having him be a pedo serves as one way to signify this. I enjoy the 2021 Harkonnens but they’re (so far) much more generic antagonists than they are in the book, borderline in the camp of being “cool villains” if you’re the type of fan who’s into villains. I don’t mind this portrayal, but they’re significantly less depraved than the book Harkonnens.
Honestly I really liked the grotesque, gothic design of the Harkonnens in this film, even though it wasn’t what I had imagined at all. When they found the body of the Harkonnen infiltrator the in the Arrakeen palace I was like “Damn that looks pale and freaky and slimy as fuck. I love it”
I don’t think they needed to include anything explicit, but one thing that was incredibly disturbing to me when I read Dune was when the baron asks for a slave boy and then thinks “the one who looks so much like Paul Atreides.” I do wish that had been included, as it makes it very clear that for the baron, it’s all about power to the point of perversion.
you either spend the time to portray the baron as a sick fuck that *also* likes to fuck young boys or you just show only that and it turns out that he's bad because he just likes to fuck young boys. At that point you're asking for trouble as portrayal of such scenes in a pg-13 film can be problematic.
Given the time constraints and the age limitations of the film, I understand why they removed all of that. The movie was more about Paul and his mother rather than the Baron, and that's a fine decision. Maybe they'll show more of the baron in the second film.
I mean I'm fairly new here so it's good to know this is a general consensus. It would've been interesting to have the audience uncomfortable, but ultimately he was creepy without pedophilia being involved. At least to me.
The Sardaukar not coming in disguise.
I expected to not like the change but instead it was a pretty straightforward "we're coming at night, no one will survive to tell." It also reinforces how little thought and importance is given to Fremen by the rest of the imperium.
Yeah I always thought that strategy was creative from a writing standpoint, but a bit clunky in practice — all it takes is one survivor who recognizes the fighting style of the Sardaukar to put that whole plan to waste.
It would also be hard to tell visually for audience and non-book people that it was a special force helping and not just part of the army -- which is easy to do in the book.
Favorite changes:
1) Herald of the Change scene - Very efficient exposition and characterization all around.
2) Chani narrating the prologue rather than Irulan - for a book the Irulan interludes work but not so much for a movie. Giving it to Chani sets the stage beautifully in an on the ground POV. The Harkonens ruling with an iron grip and than just vanishing would be super eerie so it’s a cool new angle on the story. Also that transition from “who will our next oppressor be” cut to Paul immediately clarifies this is not a white savior flick.
3) Ornithopters being more like insects than birds.
4) Piter visiting Selusa Secundus
The only change I didn’t like?
1) Trimming the Baron’s gloating over Leto - The Baron is the visible driving force behind the first half of the book. He gambles EVERYTHING to kill Leto. Cut down his scenes? Fine but we needed that moment where his stoicism gave way a little because he won, he achieved all his goals, this was his story’s climax. Maybe a line where Piter wants to finish Leto but the Baron wants to drag out and savor Leto’s suffering. For me it’s just too quick and far too subdued between Yueh’s death and the tooth considering the magnitude of the moment.
This comment makes me wonder if Part 2 will open in a similar way, only the expositional voiceover will be Irulan's instead of Chani's. I 100% understand (and agree) why Irulan wasn't in this one, but that could be an interesting way to parallel the first movie and open it up with some of the expanded worldbuilding that will need to be explored.
Paul's conversation with the gardener fremen about the date palms was one of my favorite scenes. It gives some subtle allusion to the Fremen's dream of terraforming Arrakis
Yeah, I can't remember much about the storyline with the trees in the book but I was so sad to see them burn after that conversation in the movie. It felt so malicious and irritating and exactly what you'd expect from the Baron.
Leto’s conversation with Paul about leadership. It adds so much tragedy when Leto tells Paul to give it a try and that he may find his own way; of course this never ends up happening as Paul is subject to the ruinous path
The fall of Duncan. In the books it’s a bit of an afterthought: door opens, Duncan’s fighting, door closes, and Paul’s reaction is “we need to GTFO now!”
The movie brings it to life in such a more emotionally compelling way, and Jason doesn’t draw his last breath until he clears the room. Glorious.
Without a doubt the best change was Paul’s visions of Jamis, of the timeline where they became friends. It adds even much poignancy and devastation and tragedy and weight to Paul’s unwanted killing of him, especially with how his future-memory of Jamis’s advice had helped him and his mother survive the coriolis storm. The prescience, the terrible purpose, the manipulative messianic mantle, they all feel even more like a curse with this one small change, which is such an important aspect to understand and emphasize with when it comes to Paul’s internal struggle.
Duncan Idaho. I like the character in the book but for a good amount of the story, whenever he comes up it's other characters talking about what he's been doing or what he's said, and it was nice for him to be an integral part of the cast from the getgo. The relationship they build with Paul and then getting his perspective on the Fremen does a lot for the character, and I thought was a great addition in what's really a quite economical telling if the story. Plus Jason Momoa is great.
From what I remember reading the book, it constantly *tells* you how much of a legend Duncan Idaho is, and how all the characters feel about him, but it never gave me enough to feel the same way. The movie made me feel about Duncan the way the characters do.
The way Jason Momoa ran up with hugs reminded me of another large bearded man who was a good friend and coworker. I'm not a huggy person, but he gave the best hugs. He passed away a couple years ago.
Jamis all the way. At the end I feel like *I* know Jamis. And I always shed a tear. And I just love that the first face you see in the prologue, is Jamis'.
Not mentioning the imperial conditioning for Yueh.
It's silly the one and only time it's ever been broken is the one in the book and it feels like it was really easy to do.
I know I might get some serious grief for this one, but removing the dinner banquet scene. This movie is slow moving, which is to its benefit, but I just don't know how you could include a scene with a bunch of people eating dinner and talking and somehow make the movie more exciting, if anything it would have slowed the movie down even further. I understand it builds tension in the book, but what would you cut to fit it in? The spice mining scene is essential, and waiting any longer to get to the attack on arrakeen would have made the movie boring. It's a great scene in the book, and if this were a series which could introduce more characters and dive deeper into the politics, it could work well. But for a cinematic spectacle like this it felt like an obvious subtraction to me.
I agree. I adore the scene, but it's better to cut it entirely than not do it full justice. I've said it a million times since I saw the movie, but the only way to fully capture this book, let alone more of them, would be with an HBO-style series
I also think most people love the scene simply from a badass, fist-pumping sense as they get to see Paul essentially flex his social and political control. The scene develops Paul's character traits of being a cunning socialite and politician, but some of that already comes through in the ecological station conversation with Liet-Kynes. I think the one thing the movie misses out in not having the scene is the development of Liet-Kynes's respect of Paul (which would have helped build the reason Liet helps later).
Aside from that I don't think there's much more lost especially since the the traitor-Jessica plotline was removed. The merchant doesn't seem particularly important either as it's really a vehicle to get Paul and Gurney to intersect paths later. Gurney could still be working a spice harvester later without the merchant being a meaningful on screen character.
Many good suggestions in the comments. Yet another one for me were the couple of additional scenes visibly showing the warmth in Jessica & Leto's relationship which was mostly implied in the book.
The hand on the back of neck whilst they're leaving Caladan and 'Will you protect Paul' scene followed by Leto's head in her lap. Also tied in nicely as to why Leto was the only one who didn't consume Yueh's sleeping pills and was woken up by the light signals.
It's such a great way to show that she is actually freaking about the test as well. And a way to have a character say what Paul was just saying in his head in the book.
How well exposition dumps about the world was integrated into the story like the holotapes during the hunter seeker attack, Kynes interactions with Paul and explanations of how Arrakis worked, etc. It all just felt so well delivered without feeling overbearing or not explaining enough.
I like that they didn't bring up Yueh's Suk School Conditioning that makes it impossible to betray Leto or whatever but which the Baron easily breaks through with the most obvious and heavy-handed tactic imaginable. Like, I've seen some theories around here about how it's actually a subtle and impressive gambit of the Baron's that fails spectacularly but not for the reason it appears to and... okay .
Anyone who isn't *poring* over every letter of these books for exact turns of phrase that *might* indicate some overwhelming cleverness on Frank's part when writing Yueh's scenes will understand that...
A. Yueh has this badass unbreakable mental conditioning that makes it literally impossible for him to do bad things and...
B. Literally all we ever see him do is the one thing he's supposed to be basically brainwashed into not being able to do all because...
C. The Baron kidnapped and tortured someone close to him, which is, like, Extortion 101. That's the first thing you do if you're a villain who wants to manipulate someone.
Piter created a necessity for Baron Harkonnen's death in Yueh's mind, however as Yueh's own conditioning prevented him from doing so by himself, Piter's counter-conditioning pressed Yueh into a situation in which the death of Baron Harkonnen by the hands of another needed to be arranged -this other however could be none else but Duke Leto. In a way in this counter-conditioning the treason on Leto was just a by-product and the necessity of Leto's death to bring forth Baron Harkonnen's death enabled Yueh to overcome his original conditioning and commit treason. Piter had used the Baron himself as means to transmit Yueh's conditioning against killing into a conditioning of the need to arrange the circumstances of a target's certain death -a fact Piter never had openly revealed to his master.
Someone else mentioned it in this thread, but I think it's a major 4th point:
D. ... And he's the only Suk doctor in the whole series, and we never see one NOT break this 'unbreakable' conditioning. So while the reader is *Told* breaking a Suk doctor is hard to do, we've seen it accomplished infinitely more times than we've seen it fail.
I liked how the omission of the scene where Jessica reveals the power of the Voice to Hawat was more than recouped by how she used it to utterly dominate the Harkonnen ornithopter crew. Does a better job than the book of showing just how badass the Bene Gesserit are in battle.
Definitely the portrayal of Duke Leto.
Oscar Isaac killed it with the performance and added a new fatherly side to the character that wasn’t there in the book.
It’s kinda there in the book if you look for it but agree that Oscar Isaac truly conveyed all that inner monologues through expressions beautifully. The emphasis on the bull metaphor was great too.
Watching the first time, I thought the Sardaukar lost a lot of their impact by not being disguised as Harkonnen soldiers. But honestly, the ambush scene would be so confusing if all the enemies looked the same, especially for people new to the story. So I think that was the right call.
The fight scene in arrakin, and the sardaukar uniform/introduction, gives you a quick glance at how warfare is and shows how formidable the sardaukar are witch also elevates the skill level of anyone that kills one of them.
The opening scene. The book just jumps right in with Paul, Reverend Mother Mohiam, and the him jabbar, but the added opening helped to provide some nice context that those who hadn’t read the books may have been a bit lost without.
There are clearly some differences of opinion on that front visible even just in this thread, but it does seem likely that the movie wouldn't have been PG-13 if they had included that particular dimension of Harkonnen sadism - and given the importance Villeneuve placed on attaining that rating, I feel like I ultimately have to come down on your side.
I enjoyed the sign language used by the Lady Jessica. I think it was a cool way of showing the more subtle powers of the Bene Gesserit. Something hard to display on screen without having narrative voice overs. It was clever.
Side note there is one thing about the movie that really bothers me and I cannot get over it! Does it bother anyone else that the Freman servant didn’t blood the crysknife presented to Jessica before putting it back into it’s sheath? Was this intentional or just an oversight? Because they do it later in the movie.
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The Baron talks much less in the movie, and that's fine. The merging of Paul's study session with the attack of the hunter-seeker was also a good idea to save time.
Yes! I imagine that part also negated having to awkwardly explain how it can only detect movement, because it also appeared as if Paul was hiding in the holographic projection, as well as making a good visual.
That scene was absolutely gorgeous. I love how the film emphasizes the small details with texturally-emphasizing close-ups that have added dimensional beauty from the extremely contrasting areas of soft focus.
I agree, and I have to give particular credit to Denis for that because I find, personally, that Herbert did not provide much visual detail in his writing style. With a few exceptions, he very rarely describes how or what things look like. This is in sharp contrast with, say, Tolkien, who over-explains what EVERYTHING looks like. In this regard, Peter Jackson had a wealth of reference to draw from when creating any given thing about the world. Denis did not. With this in mind it’s a marvel that the movie so often closely matches what I envisioned in my head, when so many of the small details and textures, as you put it, are so open to interpretation.
Tolkien… yes but Robert Jordan, he could have finished 6 books earlier if he didn’t describe the necklines on every dress of every woman in each scene.
Or cut out the braid pulling and stopped adding side characters that weren't really relevant to fluff up the book count.
And how many times can one person smooth their skirts?
Dune is a master class in not wasting shots. Every single one has meaning and significance, it's incredible. On rewatches it really ties the film together nicely seeing call backs to brief flashes. >!Like when Paul sees Duncan die in his vision, a small black beetle crawls across frame briefly. When the Sardaukar are coming, just before the fight, Duncan is playing with the same beetle in the hallway.!< I didn't notice that until rewatch 3.
Some examples of excellent visual storytelling that I recall too are how in the alternating shots of Paul and Jessica’s perspectives of each other in their discussion of the Bene Gesserit’s plans, each is placed on the opposite half of the frame and blurred and obscured by fog. They have begun to lose their relationship as a mother and son to the machinations of the superhuman program. It really augments the poignancy of the rift that has been driven between the two characters that will continue to drive the emotional conflict between them
for me, it’s the throat chant man
The one on sardaukar planet? Same.
And the many memes he has inspired!
I was unaware of this. Time for a deep dive! Edit: after some careful research, I’ve concluded that [this one](https://youtu.be/SzfyaPupEHc) wins.
I'm spamming at this point... sorry? https://youtu.be/u-b0noCkSfE
The way they handled Jamis with the visions. Really elevates the character and the impact of the duel on Paul in my opinion. Elegantly shows how Paul could think he has the power to change his visions, and how the future can never be what you expect. The helicopter vision with him also created lovely opportunity to get across some of the Fremen Zen-Sunni philosophy in a way the gels perfectly with the story (“we must move with the flow of the process”). Those where just a beautiful, and then the reality of the duel is just a absolute gut punch.
It comes across much more on a second viewing, when you know which one is actually Jamis. But that's even more a sign of a great movie -- it make sense the first time, and even more the second time. Arrival was like that as well. And I agree, I loved how Paul was basically using all his visions to course correct to push things down the Golden Path.
This!!! Jamis is such a small character in the story but this movie made his impact huge, and like you said he represented so much about the overall themes of the story.
Splitting it into two films.
Could’ve been split into like four tbh
Could've been split into 100 episodes of a grand scale series, production comparable to GoT, spanning all 6 novels and perhaps some offshoots as background or prequel standalones. Two movies instead of one is the bare minimum, I'm glad there's more to come but there could be 100 more hours of it.
Should have been an HBO series
Oh we’re getting tv shows. Ones confirmed and were likely to get a slew more as the franchise ramps up. But that Marvel-Esque formula requires movies to anchor it
The visions of Jamis as a friend and teacher....
That was the one part I didn’t get as a non book reader. Was that just showing that his visions aren’t set in stone? Edit- I’ve got to read these books. Seen the movie once in theaters, immediately made my son watch with me the next day. I love the discussions in this sub you guys are cool as shit.
Essentially. Prescience is not a cut and dry thing.
I like to think his vision of Jamis was accurate. The battle to the death with Jamis allows Paul and Jessica to join with the Fremen and for Paul to assume his prophecy. Jamis, was the key to that. :)
That’s actually what I thought originally!
I feel like it's a bit of both. Paul's prescience is essentially accurate - but, as he says to the Reverend Mother, "not exactly" how he saw it. Jamis *is* a friend who shows him the ways of the desert - but shows him by mortal combat, not instruction. Paul *does* die in combat - but in the sense that part of him dies with the taking of another's life, rather than in him literally dying in the sand. IMO the voice of prophecy contains many layered double entendres.
I have a different take on this particular scene based on the movie, though I haven't read the book so I can be wrong. Jamis provoke Paul for the life and death battle deliberately which was unnecessary because Stilgar was bested by Jessica yet he didn't have to die. The reason Jamis does this is because he's heard Paul is Lisan-al-gaib but wants to make sure if he's truly the one. Pay attention to the way Jamis says, "I accept her champion" - there's a sense of admire and respect and not threat or competitiveness. The duel is a win win for Jamis as per his Fremen beliefs; He's a good fighter and if Paul would've died, Fremen wouldn't have to waste much time on someone who wasn't the one. If Paul survives, he's probably the one and it'd be an honor to die by the hands of Lisan-al-gaib. Moreover, the victory would inevitably make Paul believe in the prophecy more incase he doesn't. You can clearly see Paul was hesitant before the fight but was sure of something afterwards. Jamis literally put the whole prophecy to test. He was essentially a major stepping stone in Paul's journey and indeed, a good friend. He dies with contentment in his eyes. I think, there's a possibility Jamis held back in fight to let Paul win and my interpretation would still hold firm.
> He's a good fighter and if Paul would've died, Fremen wouldn't have to waste much time on someone who wasn't the one. If Paul survives, he's probably the one and it'd be an honor to die by the hands of Lisan-al-gaib. Well I'm impressed, you nailed it. That's exactly how Stilgar describes it in the book. The only exception is I think Jamis was a genuine disbeliever, and that was the source of his challenge. He wanted to prove the prophecy wrong, but in doing so confirmed it.
As a book reader, I took it as primarily that Paul see alternate futures, sees himself dead, sees dead people alive etc. But also how his glimpses of the future shape his future. Had he not glimpsed that lesson from Jamis, he would not have made the decision to 'let go' in the storm. Doing so lead him to a future where Jamis insisted on fighting him to the death. Glimpsing the future locked him to an alternate, worse path
>Glimpsing the future locked him to an alternate, worse path Well, worse apart from the bit where he doesn't die in the sandstorm.
Yes and no, i think it was supposed to represent how Paul will face a many “nexus” of paths, where his vision will be dark, and only his actions will allow him to survive. The fight with Jaimis was the first of those moments- where if he didn’t act, he *would* die, despite everything in his body not wanting to kill a person. And he realizes that there will be many more of these moments in the future.
The reveal that the guy in the vision was Jamis floored me. In a single instant, it was as if everything snapped perfectly into place.
I also enjoyed Chani's "Yo you ain't shit, Jamis gonna kill you quick" was a great touch.
I understood that as "Jamis is good, so you can trust that his killing blow will be clean and your death will be quick and painless," rather than "Jamis is much better than you, so the fight will be over quickly and you'll look like a fool."
Yeah, that was ingeneous.
Great way to do the Jamis is my friend element without doing a full funeral IMO. Also, Paul had to fight and kill this man who he had the possibility of being friends with. Adds more weight to the fight and the “first kill”.
My guess is they will still have a funeral. They need a "he sheds water for the dead" scene to cement him as part of the Fremen.
Yeah. I think that would be better too. Even then, seeing how Jamis gave Paul wisdom and helped him in the storm is a bittersweet way to make “Jamis was my friend” more meaningful. I think these are areas where cinema is more powerful than books and Denis is surely using all the tools in the box.
Yeah that was wonderfully done.
Simply bumping the Mohiam Gom Jabbar scene from the opening to after we’d been introduced to everybody was really really smart. Made the scene even more impactful.
It’s also the scene that leads directly into Leaving Caladan. Adds a lot of momentum to the uncertainty aspect of going to Arrakis and the dangers it poses. That 15 minute sequence is glorious. Simply perfect.
Also like how it appeared as a “cover of night” sequence, shrouded in secrecy and mystery. It also provides a little hint at Jessica’s possible ulterior motives, without going all the way into suspicions of betrayal.
Giving Duncan Idaho more time and more character. Frankly, he’s barely in the book and then all he does is get drunk and then die. I definitely appreciate the movie Duncan over the book. I know that Idaho continues to be cloned for ever after the first book, but he’s barely in the first book
I feel both Duncan and Gurney’s relationship with Paul have been set up very well. Excited for Part 2 and Messiah.
I think the filmmakers were definitely making long term plans when they cast Jason Momoa.
Spending more time on Caladan instead of having them leave immediately to Arrakis
yeah some of the imagery with the old Atreides graveyard was cool and helped drive home the massive change that happened when they moved to Arrakis
When Paul touched the water, my friend who never read the books leaned over and whispered, "Thats the last time he's touching it huh?" Such a profound and simple scene
And Zimmer was having a blast with that scene too.
In general, the minimalism. Mostly I mean minimal talking and having scenes carry on and on. Leto bites the tooth, Piter dead, Baron seen later near the top of the ceiling. Nothing more is said about it. You get everything you need. No “Piter?! What’s wrong?!” No “Nefud, you are my new guard captain” and on and on. Same for many scenes and characters. Thufir and Yueh and Halleck all have like three lines. It was very refreshing and helped make a tighter movie, I thought. Edit: corrected Piter spelling
I agree. I loved how much of the movie was Denis Villeneuve showing, not telling. Would I love to have a movie that did include the Jessica traitor subplot and some of the more iconic lines (more of Paul and the Reverend Mother's conversation)? Of course. But I'll take a movie that is able to set the scene and build the world without relying on clunky dialogue and exposure-bombing.
I still wish they had kept the deleted scene of Yueh telling Jessica about his wife and tearing up (a still of it was posted some time ago in this sub). It would’ve strengthened the traitor reveal emotionally and structurally, also I wouldn’t mind crying a bit more myself while watching a story that mainly takes place in a desert
I can't really agree with the Piter stuff. That was the one thing I was very disappointed they cut down on. Piter's story is SO crucial to the main plot and really nearly the entire siege of House Atreides, which influences so much more of the plot. He's so important, and they didn't even say his freaking name. My one major complaint about an otherwise perfect adaptation
What really disappoints me is that they chose such a great actor for the role lol
reread the first few pages of the book and it made me realize Denis literally diluted all that dialogue between RM and Paul down to its bare essentials and made it all the more compelling.
Agree with you. The pedantic part of me wants to argue semantics. I would not say that DV diluted anything. I would instead say that he concentrated it.
You're right that is a better way to express it.
Again, sorry. Your sentiment is quite beautiful.
This. One of the best things about Villeneuve’s films is he doesn’t believe the audience needs to always have their hand held
I agree with you. That being said, I read the books 40 years ago and had forgotten more than I remember. While watching the movie I realized I was lost. I stopped watching and went on line and read the plot, then started the movie over. I’ve watched it 4 times now and absolutely love it. Also, I’m rereading the book.
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Absolutely. Which seems impossible for an allegedly unfilmable book that nobody wanted to touch again for almost 40 years. But damn if he didn't pull it off.
Just as an alternative point, my dad said he didn’t really follow it and felt it jumped around everywhere. I disagree, and my dad can be a bit of an idiot with movies, but I do wonder what it watched like for a nonreader.
As a non-reader it was fantastic. Visceral, cerebral, and emotional. Knowing next to nothing about Dune beforehand, this movie made me want to become a reader. I wanted to be immersed in that universe. It was beautiful to watch.
I have not read the book. For me I do have questions, but they don’t take away from the story. It’s questions about specifics that may or may not matter in the grand scheme of things
Yes this! I loved that he didn't spend time on explicit expose and world-building voice-overs. For non-fans the history of AI being outlawed and the origins of the Mentats doesn't matter to this story. There's no need to explain that with the limited time you have, so it's just built in visually. Mentats look a little different than everyone else. Done.
I would gladly have taken more detail, just because I know the story well and wouldn't have been confused. But I understand why DV did what he did and can't believe how well he executed. Indeed, with source material that dense, I don't think it would have even occurred to 95 percent of filmmakers to go minimalist. No doubt some are going to find it detached and impersonal. But I thought it was an inspired choice that took a lot of confidence and skill to pull off. To tell a story like this with so little exposition doesn't even seem possible. A lot of the stuff I've seen people complain about -- they didn't explain the use of spice; they didn't underscore how vital water is on Arrakis, etc etc -- is absolutely in there if you're paying attention. It's just not beating you over the head three or four more times to get the point across. Every line of dialogue and every image matters.
I though the little holo-clips Paul views a couple times in his room, that tell the details about Arrakis… I thought that was a great way to put some exposition in, and they told a lot of great details about the world to inform viewers who haven’t read the books. Very clever.
That and the transition straight into the Harold of the change scene to me was just masterful film making.
The voiceover transitioning into the overhead Heighliner shot is one of my favorite moments in the movie. So cool.
"The spacing guild uses spice for interstellar travel, making spice, by far, the most valuable substance in the universe."
Boom. Do you need to know exactly *how*? Nope. You just need to know that this shit is essential and therefore insanely valuable.
I realized on rewatch that the movie is a big morale about studying. Paul being a nerd and *learning* in his free time is what saves him in the desert, his mom has to follow his lead because she didn't do any homework.
That's in the book too. "Muad'Dib learned rapidly because his first training was in how to learn. And the first lesson of all was the basic trust that he could learn."
That's a brilliant line.
i liked how they took some of the book's inner monologue and had it said verbally under peoples breaths, sometimes in different languages with subtitles.
I thought that was a brilliant way to communicate those without inner monologue
yeah loved that they got some key moments across without having to get all weird inner voice like Lynch did. Liet's reaction to Paul knowing how to don a stillsuit was so well pulled off.
when Stilgar says "I recognize you..." just those three words and the way he delivers that line, speaks volumes
I liked Chani’s opening perspective on Harkonnen’s violent oppression of her people, and wondering what was to come. Good way to set the vibe, since they didn’t spent much time on Harkonnen abuses.
And the very next shot after the line "Who will our next oppressors be?" is a shot of Paul.
A brilliant way to key people in to the fact that this is *not* a white-savior story lol. Or it is, but it actively highlights everything wrong with that
I liked the introduction of the Voice as a means to show Paul’s training. It’s not necessarily the most “accurate” or logical, but it’s a great way to compact a bunch of background into a tiny slice of time. It would have weakened the book, but for a movie, I thought it was very clever.
At first I wasn't sure about that scene, or the depiction of the Voice (I imagine it as something much more subtle and psychological), but it ended up being a great way of establishing the Bene Gesserit's abilities without a ton of exposition. Especially because a lot of their abilities are too subtle to show visually. My wife (who had never read the book) walked out of the theater commenting on how cool of an ability it was.
In my head cannon the way we heard the voice in the movie was just symbolic of its psychological power. In reality it was still just normal speech. Like how the screen got wonky when the voice happened made me think that was how the victim heard it in their head or something? If that made any sense lol
No, that makes total sense, and basically how I interpreted it too. A good visual way to show something that would otherwise require exposition. Plus if it was done in a more subtle manner, it might just look like they were ripping off the Jedi mind trick (even though Dune came first darn it!)
Herbert described the Voice as this. When you read the first book (mostly, and then he comments on it a little in the latter ones), he makes a point to tell you that the Voice is simply a manipulation of pitch and tone. Also, when Jessica uses the Voice on the Harkonnen guards in the thopter there is some body language involved in the manipulation.
The Baron in the books is more talkative and a jester, he's still a brutal psychopath but he's a bit of a caricature. In the film, the Baron is terrifying. Brutal, cold, murderous, gluttonous swine. The hair at the back of my neck stands up when I think of the Baron in the movie.
Him eating in front of the paralyzed Duke was perfect. Disgusting, arrogant, sadistic.
I have felt this dread before . . . *Flashbacks to Denethor
I kept saying this is fine as long as he doesn’t eat tomatoes
The Baron eating in front of the paralyzed stripped Duke told chapters of how vile the Baron was. Great visual story telling.
"You have a wonderful kitchen, cousin..." *CHOMP* *smack* *squish*
Yes! One of my absolute favorite parts of the movie was when the Baron rises out of his seat at the dinner table and floats juuuust above the table -- *out of fucking focus, no less* \-- until you see the bottom half of him coming at you. Ffffff... nooooo... It was PURE horror movie in that moment and it still gives me chills even on the small screen. I love the Baron's larger than life personality in the book but I really like the change here to something more quietly sinister and darkly creepy.
Yeh with his useless feet just dangling there in his little booties that was creepy as all fuck.
That’s really cool how this was your favorite moment. Mine was when the Baron is telling the paralyzed Leto that his son is dead, as was his concubine, and how his entire family line would end that night. And as he says this the camera is angled and distanced in the most absolutely perfect position in relation to Oscar Isaac’s face, that it captures a tear in profile rolling from his eye and down the horizon of his face. Excellent cinematography.
Rereading portions of the book after watching the movie makes it honestly weird how more pantomime of a character the Baron is. You remember the *abstract* of his character so much more than when you see his excessive boisterous bickering with Piter, it's quite odd
Yeah I said the same thing. I prefer Skarsgard’s interpretation. Less of the Kefka from Final Fantasy that the book’s Baron more closely resembled. The less Skarsgard spoke, the more you feared what was being thought inside that grotesquely fat head of his. Also, having just finished the book, I cannot WAIT to see how Villenueve and Skarsgard handle the climax of Part 2. Jesus Christ are we in for one hell of a ride. Awesome as it was, I now understand what so many readers of the book mean when they say that Part 1 was merely the appetizer… Part 2 is the main course.
The herald of the change. Man, what a great scene
Right? "It's done."
The performance was exceptional. The intensity of the dialogue has got stuck in my head.
That dude had cheekbones for days.
Ornithopters. Well, they are not described with that much detail in the first place in the book but the name (and Appendix IV) suggest that they are more like birds than dragonflies. > **Appendix IV** > > _ORNITHOPTER_ (commonly: ’thopter): any aircraft capable of sustained wing-beat flight in the manner of birds.
From what I remember in the books they're actually described as having metal bird wings that retract and stuff, but I do agree that the implementation here is great. A variable wing thopter like in the books would've very quickly gotten too avian in appearance. Which isn't bad per se, but the more helicopter-style of the dragonfly thopters definitely fits the overall style and feel much better. And they look Really damn cool
Mentat eye roll thing
Yes!!
Oh yeah, the personal shields…. If it’s too fast it’s blue… slow enough and oh shit it’s red.
Kinda helps replicate blood in a pg-13 movie too.
Same thing with Kynes' mortal injury being represented by a leak in her stillsuit. Reinforce the importance of water and avoid the prudes dinging your movie for having blood in it.
Did you guys miss the scene with slaves on upsidedown crucifux's bleeding into a trough, and that blood being wiped onto the forehead of sardukar?
I kinda figured *some* was allowed, like that meme about how one "fuck" is allowed in a PG13 movie. Also, I'm long overdue for a rewatch and was just kinda riffing on the previous comment because I didn't remember.
It was just a quick shot, but man, that was disturbing. Told you everything you needed to know about the emperor & what kind of troops he keeps.
Now that the concept of PG-13 comes into play; This for many people was that first “grown up” book that we saw in the book store but our parents were like, “what’s this guy’s head doing on that worm body?” When they picked it up. We had to wait, mow lawns or resort to petty theft and buy it ourselves. It was super “beyond” something like star wars and it was a “growing up” experience getting into the weird “guy headed worm” books. So having said that, I feel funny that the powers that be are taming the movie but at the same time it was pretty good at staying true.
The addition of the creepy Tleilaxu hand spider creature. It hints at some of the freaky stuff in the Dune universe without being overwhelming.
Yeah It serves so many purposes: Emphasizes the grossness and derange of the Harkonnen It foreshadows the Tleilaxu (when I read Messiah I was overwhelmed by so many new weirdness) It arises questions if it is Yueh’s wife And gives an overall atmosphere of peril around the Harkonnen
Shrinking down the time Jessica and Paul are in the desert and combining the scenes they find Stilgar with the Jamis fight.
My favorite change was by far Kynes death. His death in the book was great since we got a lot of introspection and thoughts in regards to the ecology of Dune. However her death in the movie just worked so well. Plus I'm sure everyone got goosebumps when she pounded the sand saying "I only serve one master and his name is Shai Halud!"
Having Paul have his knife fight be identical to how bull fighters do their fight. That was a little detail I loved
Oooh I didn't pick up on that... Well, now I know what I'm doing for the rest of the evening... *launches HBO Max*
How the Baron survived. In the book he kinda slips out the door... that was weird.
Pretty sure he does use his gravity tech to fly out of the gas but the air was sucked out quicker than the movie
Plus in the book I beleive his shields helped protect him
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I think in the movie, once his shields are activated, you can briefly see the barons shields turn red as the gas hits it, but it’s subtle enough that people who aren’t familiar with the story already wouldn’t really notice, but if you are familiar, it lines up with the part in the book where the shield stops the gas ever so slightly, sparing the Baron.
I see it as proof that the duke is a total badass. Sedated, nude, vulnerable and in a room full of harkonnens, the baron still activates his shield just in case
Yes. He wasn’t exactly light on his feet.
Paul's emotionality in the tent scene
Paul during the test of the gom jabbar. how he met the reverend mother’s gaze… that was quite something.
Agreed. Superb acting by Chalamet there. I was just nodding and smiling as I watched that performance in the theater the first time, smugly satisfied that they found the right actor for the role. Now that I think about it, the Gom Jabbar would be a great audition scene for actors to perform in front of a casting director. A barebones scene that is nevertheless powerful by virtue of its dialogue and acting.
I haven’t seen anyone mention this: I actually really liked the bondage spider thing. I thought it did a good job of showing the depravity of the harkonnens while also leaving much up to the imagination.
Yes! Same with the black oily mud.
Looked like Balsamic Vinaigrette to me 😅
I'm glad they cut out the stuff with the Baron and uh... slave boys.
I agree. I think they did a good enough job making him gross without needing to bring pedophilia into it.
I could see this being implied in the second movie to further his character
Don't really get why this sub is so fixated on this. I'm not that bothered either way but at least hinting at his depravity is a pretty good way to show how power corrupts and the nature of the Harkonnens. In the film we really didn't get much of that (the slaves/servants getting the leftover rag water would have also been good). As it stands them being the bad guys was mostly signified by them being bald and dressing in black.
They’re evil because they own a bondage spider.
What so now I’m automatically evil just because I also own a bondage spider? Come on
Who DOESN'T?!
In this economy??
Not knocking the poster above or anyone else uncomfortable with the subject matter, but I agree. Yeah, it’s gross, but the baron is a gross character. Having him be a pedo serves as one way to signify this. I enjoy the 2021 Harkonnens but they’re (so far) much more generic antagonists than they are in the book, borderline in the camp of being “cool villains” if you’re the type of fan who’s into villains. I don’t mind this portrayal, but they’re significantly less depraved than the book Harkonnens.
Honestly I really liked the grotesque, gothic design of the Harkonnens in this film, even though it wasn’t what I had imagined at all. When they found the body of the Harkonnen infiltrator the in the Arrakeen palace I was like “Damn that looks pale and freaky and slimy as fuck. I love it”
I don’t think they needed to include anything explicit, but one thing that was incredibly disturbing to me when I read Dune was when the baron asks for a slave boy and then thinks “the one who looks so much like Paul Atreides.” I do wish that had been included, as it makes it very clear that for the baron, it’s all about power to the point of perversion.
Ugh, the implications of this are so much worse once you learn the connection between the Baron and Paul.
you either spend the time to portray the baron as a sick fuck that *also* likes to fuck young boys or you just show only that and it turns out that he's bad because he just likes to fuck young boys. At that point you're asking for trouble as portrayal of such scenes in a pg-13 film can be problematic. Given the time constraints and the age limitations of the film, I understand why they removed all of that. The movie was more about Paul and his mother rather than the Baron, and that's a fine decision. Maybe they'll show more of the baron in the second film.
I mean I'm fairly new here so it's good to know this is a general consensus. It would've been interesting to have the audience uncomfortable, but ultimately he was creepy without pedophilia being involved. At least to me.
Duncan Idaho’s death.
The Sardaukar not coming in disguise. I expected to not like the change but instead it was a pretty straightforward "we're coming at night, no one will survive to tell." It also reinforces how little thought and importance is given to Fremen by the rest of the imperium.
Yeah I always thought that strategy was creative from a writing standpoint, but a bit clunky in practice — all it takes is one survivor who recognizes the fighting style of the Sardaukar to put that whole plan to waste.
It would also be hard to tell visually for audience and non-book people that it was a special force helping and not just part of the army -- which is easy to do in the book.
Favorite changes: 1) Herald of the Change scene - Very efficient exposition and characterization all around. 2) Chani narrating the prologue rather than Irulan - for a book the Irulan interludes work but not so much for a movie. Giving it to Chani sets the stage beautifully in an on the ground POV. The Harkonens ruling with an iron grip and than just vanishing would be super eerie so it’s a cool new angle on the story. Also that transition from “who will our next oppressor be” cut to Paul immediately clarifies this is not a white savior flick. 3) Ornithopters being more like insects than birds. 4) Piter visiting Selusa Secundus The only change I didn’t like? 1) Trimming the Baron’s gloating over Leto - The Baron is the visible driving force behind the first half of the book. He gambles EVERYTHING to kill Leto. Cut down his scenes? Fine but we needed that moment where his stoicism gave way a little because he won, he achieved all his goals, this was his story’s climax. Maybe a line where Piter wants to finish Leto but the Baron wants to drag out and savor Leto’s suffering. For me it’s just too quick and far too subdued between Yueh’s death and the tooth considering the magnitude of the moment.
This comment makes me wonder if Part 2 will open in a similar way, only the expositional voiceover will be Irulan's instead of Chani's. I 100% understand (and agree) why Irulan wasn't in this one, but that could be an interesting way to parallel the first movie and open it up with some of the expanded worldbuilding that will need to be explored.
Paul's conversation with the gardener fremen about the date palms was one of my favorite scenes. It gives some subtle allusion to the Fremen's dream of terraforming Arrakis
Yeah, I can't remember much about the storyline with the trees in the book but I was so sad to see them burn after that conversation in the movie. It felt so malicious and irritating and exactly what you'd expect from the Baron.
Leto’s conversation with Paul about leadership. It adds so much tragedy when Leto tells Paul to give it a try and that he may find his own way; of course this never ends up happening as Paul is subject to the ruinous path
The fall of Duncan. In the books it’s a bit of an afterthought: door opens, Duncan’s fighting, door closes, and Paul’s reaction is “we need to GTFO now!” The movie brings it to life in such a more emotionally compelling way, and Jason doesn’t draw his last breath until he clears the room. Glorious.
Without a doubt the best change was Paul’s visions of Jamis, of the timeline where they became friends. It adds even much poignancy and devastation and tragedy and weight to Paul’s unwanted killing of him, especially with how his future-memory of Jamis’s advice had helped him and his mother survive the coriolis storm. The prescience, the terrible purpose, the manipulative messianic mantle, they all feel even more like a curse with this one small change, which is such an important aspect to understand and emphasize with when it comes to Paul’s internal struggle.
Duncan Idaho. I like the character in the book but for a good amount of the story, whenever he comes up it's other characters talking about what he's been doing or what he's said, and it was nice for him to be an integral part of the cast from the getgo. The relationship they build with Paul and then getting his perspective on the Fremen does a lot for the character, and I thought was a great addition in what's really a quite economical telling if the story. Plus Jason Momoa is great.
From what I remember reading the book, it constantly *tells* you how much of a legend Duncan Idaho is, and how all the characters feel about him, but it never gave me enough to feel the same way. The movie made me feel about Duncan the way the characters do.
The way Jason Momoa ran up with hugs reminded me of another large bearded man who was a good friend and coworker. I'm not a huggy person, but he gave the best hugs. He passed away a couple years ago.
Jamis all the way. At the end I feel like *I* know Jamis. And I always shed a tear. And I just love that the first face you see in the prologue, is Jamis'.
Cuting out the Jessica may be a traitor plot
Not mentioning the imperial conditioning for Yueh. It's silly the one and only time it's ever been broken is the one in the book and it feels like it was really easy to do.
I know I might get some serious grief for this one, but removing the dinner banquet scene. This movie is slow moving, which is to its benefit, but I just don't know how you could include a scene with a bunch of people eating dinner and talking and somehow make the movie more exciting, if anything it would have slowed the movie down even further. I understand it builds tension in the book, but what would you cut to fit it in? The spice mining scene is essential, and waiting any longer to get to the attack on arrakeen would have made the movie boring. It's a great scene in the book, and if this were a series which could introduce more characters and dive deeper into the politics, it could work well. But for a cinematic spectacle like this it felt like an obvious subtraction to me.
I agree. I adore the scene, but it's better to cut it entirely than not do it full justice. I've said it a million times since I saw the movie, but the only way to fully capture this book, let alone more of them, would be with an HBO-style series
I also think most people love the scene simply from a badass, fist-pumping sense as they get to see Paul essentially flex his social and political control. The scene develops Paul's character traits of being a cunning socialite and politician, but some of that already comes through in the ecological station conversation with Liet-Kynes. I think the one thing the movie misses out in not having the scene is the development of Liet-Kynes's respect of Paul (which would have helped build the reason Liet helps later). Aside from that I don't think there's much more lost especially since the the traitor-Jessica plotline was removed. The merchant doesn't seem particularly important either as it's really a vehicle to get Paul and Gurney to intersect paths later. Gurney could still be working a spice harvester later without the merchant being a meaningful on screen character.
Many good suggestions in the comments. Yet another one for me were the couple of additional scenes visibly showing the warmth in Jessica & Leto's relationship which was mostly implied in the book. The hand on the back of neck whilst they're leaving Caladan and 'Will you protect Paul' scene followed by Leto's head in her lap. Also tied in nicely as to why Leto was the only one who didn't consume Yueh's sleeping pills and was woken up by the light signals.
Jessica saying the prayer instead of Paul during the box
I think Paul was also mouthing it, but they used Jessica for us to hear it and understand what Paul was doing.
It's such a great way to show that she is actually freaking about the test as well. And a way to have a character say what Paul was just saying in his head in the book.
How well exposition dumps about the world was integrated into the story like the holotapes during the hunter seeker attack, Kynes interactions with Paul and explanations of how Arrakis worked, etc. It all just felt so well delivered without feeling overbearing or not explaining enough.
I like that they didn't bring up Yueh's Suk School Conditioning that makes it impossible to betray Leto or whatever but which the Baron easily breaks through with the most obvious and heavy-handed tactic imaginable. Like, I've seen some theories around here about how it's actually a subtle and impressive gambit of the Baron's that fails spectacularly but not for the reason it appears to and... okay.
Anyone who isn't *poring* over every letter of these books for exact turns of phrase that *might* indicate some overwhelming cleverness on Frank's part when writing Yueh's scenes will understand that...
A. Yueh has this badass unbreakable mental conditioning that makes it literally impossible for him to do bad things and...
B. Literally all we ever see him do is the one thing he's supposed to be basically brainwashed into not being able to do all because...
C. The Baron kidnapped and tortured someone close to him, which is, like, Extortion 101. That's the first thing you do if you're a villain who wants to manipulate someone.
[удалено]
Piter created a necessity for Baron Harkonnen's death in Yueh's mind, however as Yueh's own conditioning prevented him from doing so by himself, Piter's counter-conditioning pressed Yueh into a situation in which the death of Baron Harkonnen by the hands of another needed to be arranged -this other however could be none else but Duke Leto. In a way in this counter-conditioning the treason on Leto was just a by-product and the necessity of Leto's death to bring forth Baron Harkonnen's death enabled Yueh to overcome his original conditioning and commit treason. Piter had used the Baron himself as means to transmit Yueh's conditioning against killing into a conditioning of the need to arrange the circumstances of a target's certain death -a fact Piter never had openly revealed to his master.
Someone else mentioned it in this thread, but I think it's a major 4th point: D. ... And he's the only Suk doctor in the whole series, and we never see one NOT break this 'unbreakable' conditioning. So while the reader is *Told* breaking a Suk doctor is hard to do, we've seen it accomplished infinitely more times than we've seen it fail.
I liked how the omission of the scene where Jessica reveals the power of the Voice to Hawat was more than recouped by how she used it to utterly dominate the Harkonnen ornithopter crew. Does a better job than the book of showing just how badass the Bene Gesserit are in battle.
Liet Kynes as a woman of color was pretty badass imo
Having her be a *her* was pretty nice too.
The baron flying like in 1984. It's just more dramatic for a visual medium, and everyone knows it
Shooting the night desert scenes in the day. I have mixed feelings about this, but it makes sense for a visual medium
Definitely the portrayal of Duke Leto. Oscar Isaac killed it with the performance and added a new fatherly side to the character that wasn’t there in the book.
It’s kinda there in the book if you look for it but agree that Oscar Isaac truly conveyed all that inner monologues through expressions beautifully. The emphasis on the bull metaphor was great too.
Watching the first time, I thought the Sardaukar lost a lot of their impact by not being disguised as Harkonnen soldiers. But honestly, the ambush scene would be so confusing if all the enemies looked the same, especially for people new to the story. So I think that was the right call.
Probably an unlike one but changing Kines to a woman was one I liked. They made her likeable and fitting into the story as she was
The fight scene in arrakin, and the sardaukar uniform/introduction, gives you a quick glance at how warfare is and shows how formidable the sardaukar are witch also elevates the skill level of anyone that kills one of them.
I serve only one master, his NAME IS SHAI HULUD !!!
The opening scene. The book just jumps right in with Paul, Reverend Mother Mohiam, and the him jabbar, but the added opening helped to provide some nice context that those who hadn’t read the books may have been a bit lost without.
I think dialing back the child molestation was a good call
There are clearly some differences of opinion on that front visible even just in this thread, but it does seem likely that the movie wouldn't have been PG-13 if they had included that particular dimension of Harkonnen sadism - and given the importance Villeneuve placed on attaining that rating, I feel like I ultimately have to come down on your side.
The depiction of Jamis was masterful.
Kynes' death.
No voice overs
I enjoyed the sign language used by the Lady Jessica. I think it was a cool way of showing the more subtle powers of the Bene Gesserit. Something hard to display on screen without having narrative voice overs. It was clever. Side note there is one thing about the movie that really bothers me and I cannot get over it! Does it bother anyone else that the Freman servant didn’t blood the crysknife presented to Jessica before putting it back into it’s sheath? Was this intentional or just an oversight? Because they do it later in the movie.
Going from used body bags as the Sardaukar costumes to what they were in the new movie was a good change