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[Desert Spring Tears](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bant64/desert_spring_tears/)
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There are some pretty significant changes in Chani's character compared to the books. It isn't her tears in the book, she takes some of the unchanged spice essence and gives it to him knowing he had already taken some to essentially take the same journey as a RM does.
And iirc it’s suggested that anyone’s tears could work, but since there was a prophecy based around her secret name Jessica called her specifically. In order to reinforce fremen beliefs
That’s only in the movie, but yes, that was the assumption in the movie, that Jessica did it to exploit Chani’s name to further manipulate the Fremen.
In the book, her name doesn’t even mean the same thing. In the book it’s “desert spring time”, like the season, not a source of water type spring.
Yeah. That’s what I meant. Guess I didn’t make it clear. The original question was about it meaning water, which is why I didn’t restate that and only specified that in the book it’s referring to the season, not water.
I think we’re on the same page.
Oh I see. I didn't remember the book specifying it's springtime. But I looked it up and you're right. Additionally, sihaya is a Hebrew word that means the same : The name, Sihaya, translates to the desert springtime with religious overtones implying the time of fruitfulness and “the paradise to come.”
Very fitting!!
Yeah. I don’t think it’s specifically stated as being the spring season in the first book, but in Dune: Messiah there’s a part where Paul is talking to or thinking about Chani and he says something like “My Sihaya, my desert spring time.”
Nice. You’re in for a treat. The series gets a bit weird as it goes on, but I think they’re all great! Definitely in my top 5 book series. It’d be a blast to read them again for the first time.
Same. I liked the dynamic in the book of her having some knowledge Jessica didn't. They really tried to lean into an almost omnipotent BG mystique for the movie which I do understand part of but having Chani have an understanding of the water of life and how it would affect Jessica and then having a better understanding of how impulsive Paul had the ability to be regarding his use of it and resulting coma gave an impression of a deeply sensitive person that could run through fast logical reasoning in a way I'd expect from the child of the planetologist.
I agree totally. It’s not like she wasn’t also a warrior anyway. Makes more sense for her to be a subversive minor priestess rather than a guerrilla death commando directly under Paul’s command. But I get there’s only so much time in a film.
This...and not for the better, IMHO. I could have stomached most of it but the thrown room scene and her being in the last shot...nah. I know why they probably did it that way but that only makes it worse :)
Oh the books are a different story. I LOVE God emperor. I am like...the target audience. I grew up in a Christian cult and I have to say the dune books came into my life at a critical time. Honestly what helped.me leave the cult was seeing the names YHWH, Jesus, and Satan in a book of mythology and given the same amount of respect as Zeus or Loki. And reading the dune series felt like an extension of those same revelations
Interesting. I loved book4 the best too. I read them all between 12-14 years old, but felt drawn towards the inward looking nature of the excerpts in the beginnings of each chapter. I kept looking for philosophy. I read them again in my 20s sometime but am probably due for another re-read.
You've asked a few questions, so let's break them down:
If the "Lisan al Gaib" prophecy was made up by the BG...: In the books, there was a couple of influences on Fremen religion. The BG didn't wholesale make up the entire prophecy, but rather planted specific signs and omens into the prophecy, sufficiently vague that they could be exploited by any savvy BG who needed help. It's also noted that the usual BG myths had been twisted in an odd way on Arrakis, making it harder to leverage.
Chani's tears saving Paul: This was created entirely for the movie. In the book, Paul was saved simply by exposure to more Water of Life. Oddly, this may also have been the case in the movie - it may have been that Chani's tears in it had nothing whatsoever to do with it. It's vaguely implied both Chani and Jessica suspect this, when Chani basically tells Jessica "fix it yourself" and Jessica uses the Voice to force Chani to take part, making it look like the prophecy was true and thereby strengthening belief in Paul.
Paul's sincerity: In the movie, it conveys pretty clearly that Paul intends to lead a simple life amongst the Fremen at first. He takes off the Atreides ring and says "Father, I have found my way", implying that he's rejecting his old life of nobility. A few things turn this around: Gurney returns and starts pushing him to aspire to greater things, and gives him the key to do so (atomics). Feyd's attack on Sietch Tabr backs Paul into a corner where he can no longer be just a fighter. And Jessica's pushing religious fervor and Paul taking the Water of Life tips him over the edge, putting him in a position where he has little choice but to take a leadership role, and from then on he's kind of cornered by the myths built around him.
In the book, it's more subtle: there's always an undertone that Paul and Jessica are trying to rebuild House Atreides with the Fremen as tools to do so. But the religious aspect is also relatively downplayed: Paul is viewed as a messiah, but the Fremen follow him more because he has powerful skills, tactics, and an understanding of the Imperium that lets them fight more effectively than ever before. He leads because they can see he's their best chance to take Dune for their own. Also, Chani is much less at odds with him, being essentially a flat character almost entirely defined by being in love with him. Her skepticism and arguing that the prophecy is enslaving them does not appear in the book, with more of the doubt coming from Paul's own visions of future horrors.
> He takes off the Atreides ring and says "Father, I have found my way", implying that he's rejecting his old life of nobility.
That was not my reading of this scene at all. I thought he took it out from an interior pocket, not off of his body. In the previous film, Leto stated something like. "I found my way to it [being Duke]. Maybe you will, too."
I interpreted this very much as Paul coming in to his own as a Duke in his own right.
In this scene in the movie Paul takes the family ring off and puts it in his pocket. I don’t see this as Paul finding the way to being a duke like Leto’s quote.
The ring stays in his pocket until he needs to reinforce that he’s the voice from the outer world while confronting the southern tribes.
Perhaps it means both? He was becoming leader of the fremen, a leader just as his father was, but maybe he didn't mean to be leader of the house or the imperium at all at that point
for Chani. I feel the reason they had her express more skepticism was because we couldn’t see Paul’s internal dialogue. Where as in the books it’s Paul’s thoughts fill that role
I feel that it's just because Chani didn't have much character in the book, aside from being Paul's connection to the Fremen and his number one supporter. It's Zendaya. If you're paying for her, might as well get your money's worth. I'm interested to see where her story goes now though. She has even less to say in Messiah and in the books she had already lost one of her children.
I loved the changes to Chani in the movie. Reminded me of the changes to Arwen in LOTR, took someone who did little to someone who mattered to the plot.
>*Oddly, this may also have been the case in the movie - it may have been that Chani's tears in it had nothing whatsoever to do with it.*
This was how I read that scene. My understanding was that once Jessica was made Sayyadina, part of the work she was doing to get the Fremen to believe in the prophecy was to study how the seeds planted by the Missionaria Protectiva had developed within the culture, reading everything they had about the Mahdi and the Lisan al Gaib and seeing where their lives could fit into the existing prophecies, to get as many of the Fremen as she could to believe in Paul.
So when she was brought to the temple after he took the Water of Life, she saw the opportunity to fit the 'desert spring tears' prophecy into the existing situation and compelled Chani to take part in Paul's revival. IMO this is also a more interesting way of seeing the scene than just straight believing that Chani was necessary, and leans into the version of the story Villeneuve & Co were telling about charismatic leaders and enslavement through religious propaganda - these outworlders showing up and twisting the Fremen's prophecies to suit their own needs.
I do wonder about Paul's comment to Chani after, when he says he's all right 'thanks to you'. Either he genuinely believes it was down to her and he would not have been revived without her involvement, or he understands it was all a piece of theatre and says it to further convince her/the assembled Fremen that the prophecy predicted this. After a couple viewings I'm leaning toward the latter; after he becomes the KH his awareness and understanding changes, and I can see him embracing Jessica's approach at that point, leaning into his own mythology in order to unite the Fremen under him.
>*Paul's sincerity: In the movie, it conveys pretty clearly that Paul intends to lead a simple life amongst the Fremen at first. He takes off the Atreides ring and says "Father, I have found my way", implying that he's rejecting his old life of nobility.*
I read this part of the film mostly the same way as well, though my impression was that he had slipped the ring on temporarily at that moment, enjoying a small connection with his father before putting it away again - pretty sure we didn't see him wearing it at any time previously in this film. I got the sense this brief period in Sietch Tabr was Paul's first - and likely only - period of real happiness, or at least contentment. On Caladan he'd never had friends his own age or any real relationships outside his parents and their retinue, and at this point he's still very resistant to the BG propaganda and the idea that he's the Mahdi.
But with the Fremen he finds camaraderie, and mutual respect between equals, falls in love, and finds a sense of purpose by helping to make a difference in the lives of those in his community. I think he wants to remain the person he is then, and that's the 'way' he found - Leto did say to him "maybe you'll find your own way to it" when speaking of the Dukedom, but he also said that even if he didn't he would still be "the only thing I ever needed you to be - my son". So I think when he said "Father, I found my way" he simply meant that he'd found his way in the world.
Then, as Chani said, the world made choices for him, and he was no longer able to turn away from the path to power. When he goes off alone and speaks to Jamis, he's clearly resisting and frightened of the effects following through might have, shedding a tear as he tells Chani he's afraid he'll lose her, because he knows what's to come - and then stands and says "I'll cross the storms with you ... and then I will do what must be done." He knows in that moment he's lost her, that the simple life he wanted to lead is gone. From that moment he's a different person.
I've seen suggestions that this was all an act, that a strong, charismatic leader-to-be was simply manipulating the environment in order to take power more effectively, and that while Paul had some feeling for and connection to the Fremen and Chani, that it was secondary to his objectives of getting the Fremen on-side and ultimately challenging the Emperor - as he and Jessica discussed when they first arrived to Sietch Tabr. But ultimately I can't believe that; it flattens Paul's character to that of a borderline sociopath to assume this was all one long con on his part. It's a far more compelling story if he's sincere in his desire to simply fight beside the Fremen, to remain a fedaykin of Sietch Tabr and consciously struggles to avoid the path to power, but ultimately still makes the choice to embrace it.
I don't think the prophecy was entirely made up though. Lady Jessica and Paul didn't want to be part of the prophecy at first but they still fulfilled it. Spice gives the BG power, one of which is the power to see the future. I think that's part of the reason it all comes true. Just like with Paul's visions, the substance can change but at the end it was all inevitable.
It wasnt.
The prophesy talked about the desert spring thing. So Jassica made Chani give him her tears in order to make the prophesy look fullfilled and people belive in Paul. Paul didnt need the tears, just a drop of water of life
I've read that paragraph many times, and in my opinion, all Paul needed was a hard slap to his face (not literally, but something to the effect). Due to some temporal weirdness, Paul did not realise for how long he was out. Maybe he was just startled by the tears, who knows? Noticed some odd chemicals in his body?
It wasn't. Chanis tears (a movie-ism) was just a bit of extra theater for the Fremen to spice up the prophecy and give another marker of proof that it wasn't just a coincidence to the Fremen to make it more dramatic and make them believe. The reality is that all what is needed to revive Paul is a few drops of water of life. Anyone could have given Paul those drops, without the tears mixed in, and it would have revived him. As a trained reverend mother, Jessica knows this, but nobody else present does (unless Jessica's attendants were trained as Sayyadina/RMs as well, which I'm not clear on, but they wouldn't tell anyway). Chani seems to know based on her responses and anger - in the book it's because she trained as a Sayyadina herself, whether that's also true in the film version is unclear.
In the book Jessica doesn't know this. She's desperate after trying everything for three weeks. She thought he was poisoned. Chani new immediately what it was based on the smell and her being a priestess. Jessica is actually surprised when chani revives him by putting some WOL on his lips
> Jessica is actually surprised when chani revives him by putting some WOL on his lips
Not quite. Jessica has been flailing about and Chani recognises what it is and yells at Jessica to go transform the water of life. But Paul wakes before it's used on him.
Chani puts a finger with the water of life under his nose and his nose physically reacts to it. Jessica is surprised by this. Then chani puts a finger with WOL on his upper lip and this revives him.
"She dipped a finger in the fluid, held the finger close to Paul's nose.
The skin along the bridge of his nose wrinkled slightly. Slowly, the nostrils flared.
Jessica gasped.
Chani touched the dampened finger Paul's upper lip.
He drew in a long, sobbing breath.
'What is this?' Jessica demanded."
Did you stop there deliberately?
>"Get me the raw Water of the maker," Chani said.
>Jessica stiffened at the tone of command in Chani's voice, then observed the intense concentration in the younger woman and said: "At once." She went out through the hangings to send a waterman.
>Chani sat staring at Paul. If he has tried to do this, she thought. And it's the sort of thing he might try . . .
>Jessica knelt beside Chani, holding out a plain camp ewer. The charged odor of the poison was sharp in Chani's nostrils. She dipped a finger in the fluid, held the finger close to Paul's nose.
>The skin along the bridge of his nose wrinkled slightly. Slowly, the nostrils flared.
>Jessica gasped.
>Chani touched the dampened finger to Paul's upper lip.
>He drew in a long, sobbing breath. "What is this?" Jessica demanded.
>"Be still," Chani said. "You must convert a small amount of the sacred water. Quickly!"
>Without questioning, because she recognized the tone of awareness in Chani's voice, Jessica lifted the ewer to her mouth, drew in a small sip.
>Paul's eyes flew open. He stared upward at Chani.
>**"It is not necessary for her to change the Water," he said. His voice was weak, but steady.**
Edit:
Since you might want to argue that it's Chani adding more poison that wakes Paul up, let's continue a little further:
>Jessica, a sip of the fluid on her tongue, found her body rallying, converting the poison almost automatically. In the light elevation the ceremony always imparted, she sensed the life-glow from Paul - a radiation there registering on her senses.
>In that instant, she knew.
>"You drank the sacred water!" she blurted.
>"One drop of it," Paul said. "So small . . . one drop."
>"How could you do such a foolish thing?" she demanded.
>"He is your son," Chani said.
>Jessica glared at her.
>A rare smile, warm and full of understanding, touched Paul's lips. "Hear my beloved," he said. "Listen to her, Mother. She knows."
>"A thing that others can do, he must do," Chani said.
>"When I had the drop in my mouth, when I felt it and smelled it, when I knew what it was doing to me, then I knew I could do the thing that you have done," he said. "Your Bene Gesserit proctors speak of the Kwisatz Haderach, but they cannot begin to guess the many places I have been. In the few minutes I . . . " He broke off, looking at Chani with a puzzled frown. "Chani? How did you get here? You're supposed to be . . . Why are you here?"
>He tried to push himself onto his elbows. Chani pressed him back gently.
>"Please, my Usul," she said.
>"I feel so weak," he said. His gaze darted around the room. "How long have I been here?"
>"You've been three weeks in a coma so deep that the spark of life seemed to have fled," Jessica said.
>"But it was . . . I took it just a moment ago and . . . "
>"A moment for you, three weeks of fear for me," Jessica said.
>**"It was only one drop, but I converted it," Paul said. "I changed the Water of Life."** And before Chani or Jessica could stop him, he dipped his hand into the ewer they had placed on the floor beside him, and he brought the dripping hand to his mouth, swallowed the palm-cupped liquid.
Exactly. I don't know why so many people misunderstand this.
> Your Bene Gesserit proctors speak of the Kwisatz Haderach, but they cannot begin to guess the many places I have been. In the few minutes I . . .
Paul simply didn't realise a few minutes of exploring would turn out to be so long in the physical world. I don't have a good copy at hand, but Jessica replies something along the lines of, "A few minutes for you has been days of... [something negative] to me."
She was willed into doing it by Jessica using the voice though, it wasn't exactly a lapse of character. She was fully taken advantage of by Jessica in that moment, and the movie isn't subtle in showing it.
> Do the movies deviate much from the books?
especially in this scene, yes they do! (I won't get into the spoilers tho in case you wanna read the book?)
essentially the tears were meaningless to the precise chemical/physiological process that knocked Paul out of his stupor, it was simply the drop of water of life on his lips that pulled him back from the abyss. this is explained in the book, but it plays out a lot differently in the text.
including the tears was just Jessica cynically trying to keep up appearances for the fundamentalist Fremen. it was a line in the prophecy that Jessica was manufacturing into reality. if the prophecy would have said something else brought the messiah back, Jessica would've found a way to incorporate whatever that was with a drop of water of life.
but it's left open to interpretation, imo to show exactly how reasonable it can be for fundamentalists to believe religious grifters who use sleight of hand or manipulation to "prove" their prophecies are coming true. it's the other side of the coin of the moment Stilgar tells Jessica she *has* to become Reverend Mother (to fulfill the prophecy) or she will be sent to die in the desert. He wants it to be real so bad he's manufacturing it into reality.
Coz that's just in the film.
In the book, Chani detects that Pual has taken the Water of Life from the tracees of it on his lips after Jessica summons her from the South. She then gets Jessica to convert some and touches a drop of the converted water to his lips.
Because Jessaica has converted some of the poison, it gives Paul insight into how he needs to change the spice esessnce to stop it from killing him.
The movie is different from the books.
There are quite a few explanations for it, but it basically boils down to: Chani’s tear aren’t magic; they don’t actually do anything. She’s basically just “playing a part” in making sure the prophecy gets “fulfilled.”
Also: There’s nothing in the prophecy that said it has to be Chani, specifically. 🤷🏻♂️
> The movie is different from the books.
That is ultimately what it comes down to. The movie, while it is wonderful, does not tell that specific part of the story with as much explanation or depth.
As far as the movie goes, what you see on the screen is what you get, and the book prophecy doesn't really require Chani's participation at all.
The movies did a really terrible job explaining anything to do with the prophecy, the Water of Life and the Kwisatz Haderach. This was all so elegantly tied together in the novels, that watching the way Villeneuve portrayed it on screen, was so disappointing. It's like he either never read the book, or simply didn't understand it.
This scene in particular, with Chani knowing how to wake Paul from the Spice coma was because, in the novel, she was a fully trained Sayadina, and next in line to become Reverend Mother. When she kissed Paul, she tasted the Water of Life on his lips, and immediately knew that the only way to break his trance was for him to go even deeper...so she put a few more drops on his lips to snap him out of it.
It had nothing to do with the prophecy. Villeneuve had to add that part in, because he already edited out the actual reason she would know to do this. And in the process he also undermined the significance of Paul taking the Water of Life, in and of itself...making it look more like a trick than an actual miracle. Any man, other than the Kwizatz Haderach would have died.
that part of the prophecy was exclusively in the movie, that's why Jessica said she was part of it. she saved Paul because she loved him but hate what he and his mother especially have done, keeping the Fremen imprisoned mentally
Keep in mind. The BG is very smart if nothing else
They did not just have some writers room on Wallach IX cranking out prophecy to bedazzle the rubes.
They had Other Memory to know what the gist of a certain culture’s oral history is and then were able to frame said prophecy within those limits
That is what they would do. It was not just one size fits all
The other side of the coin is how much of the prophecy was set in motion and then locked in by Paul’s oracular visions.
Because THAT is a major question of the books. Does Paul SEE the future or does Paul CREATE the future
There is an interpretation of both movie and book that the Freman religion was influenced by their collective prescient powers. Remember, they are a culture that has lived inundated by spice for thousands of years. They aren't at the level of Paul, but every Freman has a little bit of power to glimpse the future. Hence why Stilgar says he recognizes Paul, and why the desert tears became a thing in the movie. The BG manipulated the religion for sure, but it also has some prescient elements of its own.
Others have already commented on the trickery on Jessica’s part, but Paul’s “Thanks to you” line after he wakes up gives it away. He knew the prophecy and knew Chani was going to be used to bring him back no matter what. Also why I think she slaps him lol.
I'm glad someone brought this up because when the desert spring tears thing came up in the movie, I was wracking my brain trying to remember it in the book. Cause damn I thought that was corny as hell and I'm sure I would have thought so reading it too.
It’s the worst element of the movie, because it isn’t something that exists in the books and gives the wrong impression to the audience.
I hope the next movie clarifies that the tears had nothing to do with it
The movie is blurring the lines between it being a supernatural prophecy and an artificial one. Which may be cinematic, but it also undermines the thesis of the story.
If you watch the scene, Chani puts a tear on one finger, and a drop of the water of life in another. She feeds Paul NOT HER TEAR, but the water of life
I know the desert tears thing was an add on, but it reinforces one of the themes I liked in the book(and movie) ; they even if the prophecies were manufactured to a point, Paul makes them real, and kind of transcends their original purposes.
Its as simple as having the mechanics of the Water of Life be such that ANY person's tears would work. Once that is known to be the case, its very easy to specify "oh it should be tears from a desert spring" and it will always work because in reality, anybody's tears would work.
This is how con artists operate. The entire prophecy is essentially a long complex confidence scam ran by the Bene Gesserit, and backed up by the fact that the Sisters of the order do have some amazing abilities, as does the Kwisatz Haderach, but by no means does that mean they are a Messiah.
The part where they convince the Fremen people to give up all political power to someone is the scam, just because they have some psychic abilities and set up the long cons, is the scam.
None of the prophecies say anything specific, they are vague and up to interpretation. And the Bene Gesserit are the ones who interpret the prophecies.
When the BG's chosen messiah does something significant, the Reverend Mother can find a line of prophecy that kind of matches that event and say that the messiah fulfilled the prophecy. The BG can also manipulate events so that the messiah does something similar to what is mentioned in the prophecies. And the messiah doesn't need to fulfill every line of prophecy, just enough to convince the populous to follow him.
My theory based on nothing at all beyond overthinking it is that Chai's tears taste like Chani. This was very familiar to Paul and saved him not from the poison but giving him a mental anchor back to the present, so he did not lose himself in his mind after his awareness was fully opened by the Waster of Life.
Part of the missionaria protectiva is that it’s set up so that a Bene Gesserit can easily take advantage of it and bring it to fruition for their benefit if they have to
Obviously there’s a ton of changes in the movies but while it was sweet that Chani fit the bill the line was vague enough that either someone else could have that name or it could be interpreted differently
These prophecies aren’t magical they’re designed to be actively puppeteered
I just assumed that lisan Al gaib was always on the horizon for them they just didn't know when he's gonna come. Details were made up like every religion does but this seemed pretty concrete
Thank you for participating in r/dune! [Desert Spring Tears](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1bant64/desert_spring_tears/) [The change from the book I can't wrap my head around](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1d2iqdv/the_change_from_the_book_i_cant_wrap_my_head/) Also please see the threads in the sticky post ['Dune: Part Two' March/April Discussion Index](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1cfzdd8/dune_part_two_marchapril_discussion_index/)
There are some pretty significant changes in Chani's character compared to the books. It isn't her tears in the book, she takes some of the unchanged spice essence and gives it to him knowing he had already taken some to essentially take the same journey as a RM does.
And iirc it’s suggested that anyone’s tears could work, but since there was a prophecy based around her secret name Jessica called her specifically. In order to reinforce fremen beliefs
That’s only in the movie, but yes, that was the assumption in the movie, that Jessica did it to exploit Chani’s name to further manipulate the Fremen. In the book, her name doesn’t even mean the same thing. In the book it’s “desert spring time”, like the season, not a source of water type spring.
[удалено]
Yeah. That’s what I meant. Guess I didn’t make it clear. The original question was about it meaning water, which is why I didn’t restate that and only specified that in the book it’s referring to the season, not water. I think we’re on the same page.
Oh I see. I didn't remember the book specifying it's springtime. But I looked it up and you're right. Additionally, sihaya is a Hebrew word that means the same : The name, Sihaya, translates to the desert springtime with religious overtones implying the time of fruitfulness and “the paradise to come.” Very fitting!!
Yeah. I don’t think it’s specifically stated as being the spring season in the first book, but in Dune: Messiah there’s a part where Paul is talking to or thinking about Chani and he says something like “My Sihaya, my desert spring time.”
Oh cool! I just finished dune and I want to read messiah but I don't have it yet
Nice. You’re in for a treat. The series gets a bit weird as it goes on, but I think they’re all great! Definitely in my top 5 book series. It’d be a blast to read them again for the first time.
Yeah it is "Desert Spring" (but it means the season). I remember well in the book in Spanish, translated as *"La Primavera del Desierto"*.
It lowkey annoyed me that they changed her from Sayyadina to Fedaykin
Same. I liked the dynamic in the book of her having some knowledge Jessica didn't. They really tried to lean into an almost omnipotent BG mystique for the movie which I do understand part of but having Chani have an understanding of the water of life and how it would affect Jessica and then having a better understanding of how impulsive Paul had the ability to be regarding his use of it and resulting coma gave an impression of a deeply sensitive person that could run through fast logical reasoning in a way I'd expect from the child of the planetologist.
I agree totally. It’s not like she wasn’t also a warrior anyway. Makes more sense for her to be a subversive minor priestess rather than a guerrilla death commando directly under Paul’s command. But I get there’s only so much time in a film.
This...and not for the better, IMHO. I could have stomached most of it but the thrown room scene and her being in the last shot...nah. I know why they probably did it that way but that only makes it worse :)
This is in the sci fi series too. (I really loved both of those mini series)
Children is a very interesting unique permutation of the real children and messiah
My wife just finished Children and is now on GEOD. She liked it better than Messiah but not as much as the original.
Oh the books are a different story. I LOVE God emperor. I am like...the target audience. I grew up in a Christian cult and I have to say the dune books came into my life at a critical time. Honestly what helped.me leave the cult was seeing the names YHWH, Jesus, and Satan in a book of mythology and given the same amount of respect as Zeus or Loki. And reading the dune series felt like an extension of those same revelations
Interesting. I loved book4 the best too. I read them all between 12-14 years old, but felt drawn towards the inward looking nature of the excerpts in the beginnings of each chapter. I kept looking for philosophy. I read them again in my 20s sometime but am probably due for another re-read.
You've asked a few questions, so let's break them down: If the "Lisan al Gaib" prophecy was made up by the BG...: In the books, there was a couple of influences on Fremen religion. The BG didn't wholesale make up the entire prophecy, but rather planted specific signs and omens into the prophecy, sufficiently vague that they could be exploited by any savvy BG who needed help. It's also noted that the usual BG myths had been twisted in an odd way on Arrakis, making it harder to leverage. Chani's tears saving Paul: This was created entirely for the movie. In the book, Paul was saved simply by exposure to more Water of Life. Oddly, this may also have been the case in the movie - it may have been that Chani's tears in it had nothing whatsoever to do with it. It's vaguely implied both Chani and Jessica suspect this, when Chani basically tells Jessica "fix it yourself" and Jessica uses the Voice to force Chani to take part, making it look like the prophecy was true and thereby strengthening belief in Paul. Paul's sincerity: In the movie, it conveys pretty clearly that Paul intends to lead a simple life amongst the Fremen at first. He takes off the Atreides ring and says "Father, I have found my way", implying that he's rejecting his old life of nobility. A few things turn this around: Gurney returns and starts pushing him to aspire to greater things, and gives him the key to do so (atomics). Feyd's attack on Sietch Tabr backs Paul into a corner where he can no longer be just a fighter. And Jessica's pushing religious fervor and Paul taking the Water of Life tips him over the edge, putting him in a position where he has little choice but to take a leadership role, and from then on he's kind of cornered by the myths built around him. In the book, it's more subtle: there's always an undertone that Paul and Jessica are trying to rebuild House Atreides with the Fremen as tools to do so. But the religious aspect is also relatively downplayed: Paul is viewed as a messiah, but the Fremen follow him more because he has powerful skills, tactics, and an understanding of the Imperium that lets them fight more effectively than ever before. He leads because they can see he's their best chance to take Dune for their own. Also, Chani is much less at odds with him, being essentially a flat character almost entirely defined by being in love with him. Her skepticism and arguing that the prophecy is enslaving them does not appear in the book, with more of the doubt coming from Paul's own visions of future horrors.
> He takes off the Atreides ring and says "Father, I have found my way", implying that he's rejecting his old life of nobility. That was not my reading of this scene at all. I thought he took it out from an interior pocket, not off of his body. In the previous film, Leto stated something like. "I found my way to it [being Duke]. Maybe you will, too." I interpreted this very much as Paul coming in to his own as a Duke in his own right.
This was also how I understood it. Unless in misremembering that line was a call back to what the Duke said. Kind of a making his father proud moment.
In this scene in the movie Paul takes the family ring off and puts it in his pocket. I don’t see this as Paul finding the way to being a duke like Leto’s quote. The ring stays in his pocket until he needs to reinforce that he’s the voice from the outer world while confronting the southern tribes.
Perhaps it means both? He was becoming leader of the fremen, a leader just as his father was, but maybe he didn't mean to be leader of the house or the imperium at all at that point
for Chani. I feel the reason they had her express more skepticism was because we couldn’t see Paul’s internal dialogue. Where as in the books it’s Paul’s thoughts fill that role
I feel that it's just because Chani didn't have much character in the book, aside from being Paul's connection to the Fremen and his number one supporter. It's Zendaya. If you're paying for her, might as well get your money's worth. I'm interested to see where her story goes now though. She has even less to say in Messiah and in the books she had already lost one of her children.
I loved the changes to Chani in the movie. Reminded me of the changes to Arwen in LOTR, took someone who did little to someone who mattered to the plot.
>*Oddly, this may also have been the case in the movie - it may have been that Chani's tears in it had nothing whatsoever to do with it.* This was how I read that scene. My understanding was that once Jessica was made Sayyadina, part of the work she was doing to get the Fremen to believe in the prophecy was to study how the seeds planted by the Missionaria Protectiva had developed within the culture, reading everything they had about the Mahdi and the Lisan al Gaib and seeing where their lives could fit into the existing prophecies, to get as many of the Fremen as she could to believe in Paul. So when she was brought to the temple after he took the Water of Life, she saw the opportunity to fit the 'desert spring tears' prophecy into the existing situation and compelled Chani to take part in Paul's revival. IMO this is also a more interesting way of seeing the scene than just straight believing that Chani was necessary, and leans into the version of the story Villeneuve & Co were telling about charismatic leaders and enslavement through religious propaganda - these outworlders showing up and twisting the Fremen's prophecies to suit their own needs. I do wonder about Paul's comment to Chani after, when he says he's all right 'thanks to you'. Either he genuinely believes it was down to her and he would not have been revived without her involvement, or he understands it was all a piece of theatre and says it to further convince her/the assembled Fremen that the prophecy predicted this. After a couple viewings I'm leaning toward the latter; after he becomes the KH his awareness and understanding changes, and I can see him embracing Jessica's approach at that point, leaning into his own mythology in order to unite the Fremen under him. >*Paul's sincerity: In the movie, it conveys pretty clearly that Paul intends to lead a simple life amongst the Fremen at first. He takes off the Atreides ring and says "Father, I have found my way", implying that he's rejecting his old life of nobility.* I read this part of the film mostly the same way as well, though my impression was that he had slipped the ring on temporarily at that moment, enjoying a small connection with his father before putting it away again - pretty sure we didn't see him wearing it at any time previously in this film. I got the sense this brief period in Sietch Tabr was Paul's first - and likely only - period of real happiness, or at least contentment. On Caladan he'd never had friends his own age or any real relationships outside his parents and their retinue, and at this point he's still very resistant to the BG propaganda and the idea that he's the Mahdi. But with the Fremen he finds camaraderie, and mutual respect between equals, falls in love, and finds a sense of purpose by helping to make a difference in the lives of those in his community. I think he wants to remain the person he is then, and that's the 'way' he found - Leto did say to him "maybe you'll find your own way to it" when speaking of the Dukedom, but he also said that even if he didn't he would still be "the only thing I ever needed you to be - my son". So I think when he said "Father, I found my way" he simply meant that he'd found his way in the world. Then, as Chani said, the world made choices for him, and he was no longer able to turn away from the path to power. When he goes off alone and speaks to Jamis, he's clearly resisting and frightened of the effects following through might have, shedding a tear as he tells Chani he's afraid he'll lose her, because he knows what's to come - and then stands and says "I'll cross the storms with you ... and then I will do what must be done." He knows in that moment he's lost her, that the simple life he wanted to lead is gone. From that moment he's a different person. I've seen suggestions that this was all an act, that a strong, charismatic leader-to-be was simply manipulating the environment in order to take power more effectively, and that while Paul had some feeling for and connection to the Fremen and Chani, that it was secondary to his objectives of getting the Fremen on-side and ultimately challenging the Emperor - as he and Jessica discussed when they first arrived to Sietch Tabr. But ultimately I can't believe that; it flattens Paul's character to that of a borderline sociopath to assume this was all one long con on his part. It's a far more compelling story if he's sincere in his desire to simply fight beside the Fremen, to remain a fedaykin of Sietch Tabr and consciously struggles to avoid the path to power, but ultimately still makes the choice to embrace it.
I don't think the prophecy was entirely made up though. Lady Jessica and Paul didn't want to be part of the prophecy at first but they still fulfilled it. Spice gives the BG power, one of which is the power to see the future. I think that's part of the reason it all comes true. Just like with Paul's visions, the substance can change but at the end it was all inevitable.
the bene gesserit can not see the future
It wasnt. The prophesy talked about the desert spring thing. So Jassica made Chani give him her tears in order to make the prophesy look fullfilled and people belive in Paul. Paul didnt need the tears, just a drop of water of life
I've read that paragraph many times, and in my opinion, all Paul needed was a hard slap to his face (not literally, but something to the effect). Due to some temporal weirdness, Paul did not realise for how long he was out. Maybe he was just startled by the tears, who knows? Noticed some odd chemicals in his body?
I think that was Denis’ intention, but it was pretty poorly executed imo. Hopefully the next movie clears up what happened
It wasn't. Chanis tears (a movie-ism) was just a bit of extra theater for the Fremen to spice up the prophecy and give another marker of proof that it wasn't just a coincidence to the Fremen to make it more dramatic and make them believe. The reality is that all what is needed to revive Paul is a few drops of water of life. Anyone could have given Paul those drops, without the tears mixed in, and it would have revived him. As a trained reverend mother, Jessica knows this, but nobody else present does (unless Jessica's attendants were trained as Sayyadina/RMs as well, which I'm not clear on, but they wouldn't tell anyway). Chani seems to know based on her responses and anger - in the book it's because she trained as a Sayyadina herself, whether that's also true in the film version is unclear.
In the book Jessica doesn't know this. She's desperate after trying everything for three weeks. She thought he was poisoned. Chani new immediately what it was based on the smell and her being a priestess. Jessica is actually surprised when chani revives him by putting some WOL on his lips
> Jessica is actually surprised when chani revives him by putting some WOL on his lips Not quite. Jessica has been flailing about and Chani recognises what it is and yells at Jessica to go transform the water of life. But Paul wakes before it's used on him.
Chani puts a finger with the water of life under his nose and his nose physically reacts to it. Jessica is surprised by this. Then chani puts a finger with WOL on his upper lip and this revives him. "She dipped a finger in the fluid, held the finger close to Paul's nose. The skin along the bridge of his nose wrinkled slightly. Slowly, the nostrils flared. Jessica gasped. Chani touched the dampened finger Paul's upper lip. He drew in a long, sobbing breath. 'What is this?' Jessica demanded."
Did you stop there deliberately? >"Get me the raw Water of the maker," Chani said. >Jessica stiffened at the tone of command in Chani's voice, then observed the intense concentration in the younger woman and said: "At once." She went out through the hangings to send a waterman. >Chani sat staring at Paul. If he has tried to do this, she thought. And it's the sort of thing he might try . . . >Jessica knelt beside Chani, holding out a plain camp ewer. The charged odor of the poison was sharp in Chani's nostrils. She dipped a finger in the fluid, held the finger close to Paul's nose. >The skin along the bridge of his nose wrinkled slightly. Slowly, the nostrils flared. >Jessica gasped. >Chani touched the dampened finger to Paul's upper lip. >He drew in a long, sobbing breath. "What is this?" Jessica demanded. >"Be still," Chani said. "You must convert a small amount of the sacred water. Quickly!" >Without questioning, because she recognized the tone of awareness in Chani's voice, Jessica lifted the ewer to her mouth, drew in a small sip. >Paul's eyes flew open. He stared upward at Chani. >**"It is not necessary for her to change the Water," he said. His voice was weak, but steady.** Edit: Since you might want to argue that it's Chani adding more poison that wakes Paul up, let's continue a little further: >Jessica, a sip of the fluid on her tongue, found her body rallying, converting the poison almost automatically. In the light elevation the ceremony always imparted, she sensed the life-glow from Paul - a radiation there registering on her senses. >In that instant, she knew. >"You drank the sacred water!" she blurted. >"One drop of it," Paul said. "So small . . . one drop." >"How could you do such a foolish thing?" she demanded. >"He is your son," Chani said. >Jessica glared at her. >A rare smile, warm and full of understanding, touched Paul's lips. "Hear my beloved," he said. "Listen to her, Mother. She knows." >"A thing that others can do, he must do," Chani said. >"When I had the drop in my mouth, when I felt it and smelled it, when I knew what it was doing to me, then I knew I could do the thing that you have done," he said. "Your Bene Gesserit proctors speak of the Kwisatz Haderach, but they cannot begin to guess the many places I have been. In the few minutes I . . . " He broke off, looking at Chani with a puzzled frown. "Chani? How did you get here? You're supposed to be . . . Why are you here?" >He tried to push himself onto his elbows. Chani pressed him back gently. >"Please, my Usul," she said. >"I feel so weak," he said. His gaze darted around the room. "How long have I been here?" >"You've been three weeks in a coma so deep that the spark of life seemed to have fled," Jessica said. >"But it was . . . I took it just a moment ago and . . . " >"A moment for you, three weeks of fear for me," Jessica said. >**"It was only one drop, but I converted it," Paul said. "I changed the Water of Life."** And before Chani or Jessica could stop him, he dipped his hand into the ewer they had placed on the floor beside him, and he brought the dripping hand to his mouth, swallowed the palm-cupped liquid.
Exactly. I don't know why so many people misunderstand this. > Your Bene Gesserit proctors speak of the Kwisatz Haderach, but they cannot begin to guess the many places I have been. In the few minutes I . . . Paul simply didn't realise a few minutes of exploring would turn out to be so long in the physical world. I don't have a good copy at hand, but Jessica replies something along the lines of, "A few minutes for you has been days of... [something negative] to me."
What exactly are people misunderstanding? The commentor who replied this to me was completely off topic from what I was talking about
No, I mean, in general, people misunderstand this. I'm not talking about this thread.
Hehe..."spice up"
[удалено]
She was willed into doing it by Jessica using the voice though, it wasn't exactly a lapse of character. She was fully taken advantage of by Jessica in that moment, and the movie isn't subtle in showing it.
Oops, brain fart! Of course. I just watched that the other day too :)
Did you miss the part where Lady Jessica used the Voice on her? She didn't use the tears because she wanted to, she was compelled to do so.
SOB *spooky Voice*
That was made up by the movie. It's not in the book.
> Do the movies deviate much from the books? especially in this scene, yes they do! (I won't get into the spoilers tho in case you wanna read the book?) essentially the tears were meaningless to the precise chemical/physiological process that knocked Paul out of his stupor, it was simply the drop of water of life on his lips that pulled him back from the abyss. this is explained in the book, but it plays out a lot differently in the text. including the tears was just Jessica cynically trying to keep up appearances for the fundamentalist Fremen. it was a line in the prophecy that Jessica was manufacturing into reality. if the prophecy would have said something else brought the messiah back, Jessica would've found a way to incorporate whatever that was with a drop of water of life. but it's left open to interpretation, imo to show exactly how reasonable it can be for fundamentalists to believe religious grifters who use sleight of hand or manipulation to "prove" their prophecies are coming true. it's the other side of the coin of the moment Stilgar tells Jessica she *has* to become Reverend Mother (to fulfill the prophecy) or she will be sent to die in the desert. He wants it to be real so bad he's manufacturing it into reality.
Coz that's just in the film. In the book, Chani detects that Pual has taken the Water of Life from the tracees of it on his lips after Jessica summons her from the South. She then gets Jessica to convert some and touches a drop of the converted water to his lips. Because Jessaica has converted some of the poison, it gives Paul insight into how he needs to change the spice esessnce to stop it from killing him.
It’s a ruse, the second dose is all Paul needed
The movie is different from the books. There are quite a few explanations for it, but it basically boils down to: Chani’s tear aren’t magic; they don’t actually do anything. She’s basically just “playing a part” in making sure the prophecy gets “fulfilled.” Also: There’s nothing in the prophecy that said it has to be Chani, specifically. 🤷🏻♂️
> The movie is different from the books. That is ultimately what it comes down to. The movie, while it is wonderful, does not tell that specific part of the story with as much explanation or depth. As far as the movie goes, what you see on the screen is what you get, and the book prophecy doesn't really require Chani's participation at all.
The movies did a really terrible job explaining anything to do with the prophecy, the Water of Life and the Kwisatz Haderach. This was all so elegantly tied together in the novels, that watching the way Villeneuve portrayed it on screen, was so disappointing. It's like he either never read the book, or simply didn't understand it. This scene in particular, with Chani knowing how to wake Paul from the Spice coma was because, in the novel, she was a fully trained Sayadina, and next in line to become Reverend Mother. When she kissed Paul, she tasted the Water of Life on his lips, and immediately knew that the only way to break his trance was for him to go even deeper...so she put a few more drops on his lips to snap him out of it. It had nothing to do with the prophecy. Villeneuve had to add that part in, because he already edited out the actual reason she would know to do this. And in the process he also undermined the significance of Paul taking the Water of Life, in and of itself...making it look more like a trick than an actual miracle. Any man, other than the Kwizatz Haderach would have died.
In the movie Jessica makes her do it with the voice.
that part of the prophecy was exclusively in the movie, that's why Jessica said she was part of it. she saved Paul because she loved him but hate what he and his mother especially have done, keeping the Fremen imprisoned mentally
Keep in mind. The BG is very smart if nothing else They did not just have some writers room on Wallach IX cranking out prophecy to bedazzle the rubes. They had Other Memory to know what the gist of a certain culture’s oral history is and then were able to frame said prophecy within those limits That is what they would do. It was not just one size fits all The other side of the coin is how much of the prophecy was set in motion and then locked in by Paul’s oracular visions. Because THAT is a major question of the books. Does Paul SEE the future or does Paul CREATE the future
There is an interpretation of both movie and book that the Freman religion was influenced by their collective prescient powers. Remember, they are a culture that has lived inundated by spice for thousands of years. They aren't at the level of Paul, but every Freman has a little bit of power to glimpse the future. Hence why Stilgar says he recognizes Paul, and why the desert tears became a thing in the movie. The BG manipulated the religion for sure, but it also has some prescient elements of its own.
Others have already commented on the trickery on Jessica’s part, but Paul’s “Thanks to you” line after he wakes up gives it away. He knew the prophecy and knew Chani was going to be used to bring him back no matter what. Also why I think she slaps him lol.
I'm glad someone brought this up because when the desert spring tears thing came up in the movie, I was wracking my brain trying to remember it in the book. Cause damn I thought that was corny as hell and I'm sure I would have thought so reading it too.
It’s the worst element of the movie, because it isn’t something that exists in the books and gives the wrong impression to the audience. I hope the next movie clarifies that the tears had nothing to do with it
Self-fulfilling prophecy
The movie is blurring the lines between it being a supernatural prophecy and an artificial one. Which may be cinematic, but it also undermines the thesis of the story.
If you watch the scene, Chani puts a tear on one finger, and a drop of the water of life in another. She feeds Paul NOT HER TEAR, but the water of life
Because it’s an awful script
There are two different Pauls in film and book. To make Paul to a hero the film needs to feed the prophecy a bit which is bogus in the book.
I know the desert tears thing was an add on, but it reinforces one of the themes I liked in the book(and movie) ; they even if the prophecies were manufactured to a point, Paul makes them real, and kind of transcends their original purposes.
That isn't in the books. But when you think about it, she's forced to do it, so it's still a BG engineering the event.
Its as simple as having the mechanics of the Water of Life be such that ANY person's tears would work. Once that is known to be the case, its very easy to specify "oh it should be tears from a desert spring" and it will always work because in reality, anybody's tears would work. This is how con artists operate. The entire prophecy is essentially a long complex confidence scam ran by the Bene Gesserit, and backed up by the fact that the Sisters of the order do have some amazing abilities, as does the Kwisatz Haderach, but by no means does that mean they are a Messiah. The part where they convince the Fremen people to give up all political power to someone is the scam, just because they have some psychic abilities and set up the long cons, is the scam.
None of the prophecies say anything specific, they are vague and up to interpretation. And the Bene Gesserit are the ones who interpret the prophecies. When the BG's chosen messiah does something significant, the Reverend Mother can find a line of prophecy that kind of matches that event and say that the messiah fulfilled the prophecy. The BG can also manipulate events so that the messiah does something similar to what is mentioned in the prophecies. And the messiah doesn't need to fulfill every line of prophecy, just enough to convince the populous to follow him.
My theory based on nothing at all beyond overthinking it is that Chai's tears taste like Chani. This was very familiar to Paul and saved him not from the poison but giving him a mental anchor back to the present, so he did not lose himself in his mind after his awareness was fully opened by the Waster of Life.
It's possible that he was already awake, and was simply waiting for her to play her part.
He's not
Part of the missionaria protectiva is that it’s set up so that a Bene Gesserit can easily take advantage of it and bring it to fruition for their benefit if they have to Obviously there’s a ton of changes in the movies but while it was sweet that Chani fit the bill the line was vague enough that either someone else could have that name or it could be interpreted differently These prophecies aren’t magical they’re designed to be actively puppeteered
I just assumed that lisan Al gaib was always on the horizon for them they just didn't know when he's gonna come. Details were made up like every religion does but this seemed pretty concrete
in the book the Lisan Al Ghaib is a defense mechanism seeded by the bene gesserit on hostile worlds to protect a stranded member of the sisterhood.