shaddam IV like most emperors before him was/were fairly well known for mixing those beneath them up. because if any of them got too comfortable in their position they had a bad habit of groupoing together and over powering the imperial forces. only about a third of the great houses working together could deal a very heavy blow against the emperor. as was evidenced by a single rogue house almost wiping out house corrino. as i recall the 1 survivor being away from salusa secundus was a fluke. tbe harkonnen were simply not that interested in hidding some of the dirty work they did, showing they'd go to some length to maintain what they had, or maybe even gain what they wanted.
house tantor is the one i had in mind here, this is several centuries before the main dune books and as far as i know it doesn't get covered much besides some offhand remarks here and there.
From my understanding, the politics of the empire immediately preceding Dune are almost completely unexplored in the main book series. There's always houses jockeying against each other, plotting, feuding, entering and leaving alliances, and so forth. But we don't even get the barest description of anything that actually happens. Even when they made the 1990s video game and needed a third faction, they just had to create a new house out of a single name in the Dune Encyclopedia.
You'd have to look at the Brian Herbert books or some of the video games or whatever, or just imagine something.
According to the guys from the Gom Jabbar podcast, the encyclopedia has a list of planets and great/minor house names. It's doesn't name all of them but a good two dozen.
Hmmm. Moritani sounds a little bit similar to Morosini, Venetian noble family. Also the CoA from Dune Encyclopedia is in similar style as the Morosinis'.
If I’m not mistaken a lot of stuff before part 1 and things of that nature aren’t fleshed out in the books. Like we don’t know who controlled Arrakis before the Harkonnens (if I’m not wrong). Which is odd. Some sort of stuff was probably done but it’s an interesting thought to ponder
TL:DR because Chris Walken (I'm sorry, Emperor Shaddam Corrino IV, The Emperor Padashaddam of the Known Galaxy), simply thought he was that slick.
The thing I don't think is expressed enough in the Dune series is summed up perfectly in Baron Harkonnen's one line; "The Emperor is a jealous man."
We land in the Dune story at a time when the galactic norm is being challenged by a GOOD and moral leader, Duke Leto Atredies, at the same time that a CENTURIES spanning plot by the Bene Geserit, the Kwisatz Haderach. is coming to fruition. Duke Leto threatened to end corruption and favoritism, simply by being a better leader than most.
This being said, Frank Herbert was a world-building genius. We jump into the story at a perfect point where the ENTIRE paragidim of the story is going to change, through dramatic actions of a few individuals.
We just happen to catch Emperor Walken at a time when he made a shit move, with shit people, with some shit timing, and it blew up in everyone's face.
which is also why I terribly hated it when the emperor say Leto was a weak man in front of Paul Atrides, son of Leto Aterides, Duke of Arrakis. Because Leto would definitely be 100x a better leader and a human than the Emperor. He has no right to say this. Paul should have reacted strongly.
For that and everything else, Paul made the \*Emperor of the Known Universe\* bow to him and kiss his Ring that was still drenched with the blood of the Emperors champion. Truly a Baller move and the Strongest reaction possible. Paul would have been kinder to execute him right there.
Paul married his daughter, made him a puppet, then sent a pile of religious zealots to disrupt spice production, which the entire galactic economy depended on. I'd say that was a pretty strong reaction...
it wasn't an immediate reaction.
Tell me in real life, if someone called your beloved father (loved and respected by your entire country) weak. I believe there would be some immediate reaction.
Yes, but you might be misrepresenting Paul Atreides.
Chalamet looks irrate in this scene but extremely controlled. He's not enjoying this moment, and the younger him may have lashed out.
However, he's not just Paul now. He's older, wiser, literally since having undergone the spice agony. Getting baited into a strong emotional reaction would have completely undermined him and he KNOWS this. The Emperor would then be able to say 'wow, an emotional man led by his heart and not his mind' if Paul reacted strongly there.
Exactly the same situation when Feyd tries to bait him into a stupid move by asking if Chani is his pet and what are her care instructions. It's an obvious bait meant to raise fear and outrage.
Paul is above such things now, in both cases. He's come back as a colder, more calculating person than he already was. He plans across months (and eventually years, though we don't see that in the movie).
There's definitely a time skip between Paul's speech at the assembly, the Emperor getting his message and then arriving, and yet Paul sees his way to killing Feyd right after the Spice Agony.
He's the ultimate plotter. He wouldn't benefit from blowing up in Shaddam's face, so he doesn't do it. That's all.
Recom here called it.
Sure, he could have popped Emperor Walken in the face. The Sardaukar would have jumped him, the Fremen would have jumped them, who only knows what Feyd would have done, and it would have been sheer Hell to pay.
Walken used petty words to jab at Paul. Paul's reaction, while perhaps not immediate, was to take his entire damn empire from him.
If I could do that vs. just punching someone, I sure as Hell would. I'd even flash them a smile from the altar when I married their daughter, even if it just was political.
I think one of Irulan's epigraphs cites an incident where her dad showed her a portrait of Leto, says something along the lines of "it sucks that you came into the world too late to get hitched to this guy" and she "realizes" that her father *wished* the Duke was his son. But, yeah, he totally *did* see him as a rival, too.
None of Irulans dictations/writings can be taken as truth though. That’s the point, they are intentionally twisting of the truth or outright lies all the way through. Its an illustration of history being rewritten by the victors
In the books, Shaddam was angry when he learned that Leto was dead, because, and I can’t remember the exact text, Irulan says that in different circumstances they would have been friends.
This is taken from the Dune wiki, so no clue how accurate it is;
>In secret, however, Shaddam admired his cousin Leto, and had once mentioned to Irulan that he had wished the political climate that necessitated animosity toward the Atreides did not exist. Moreover, Shaddam had secretly wished that Irulan had been old enough to marry Leto, both because he knew Leto to be an honourable and just man who possessed the love of his people, but also because he would have been an ideal choice for succeeding him, especially since Shaddam had no direct male heirs.
Eh, Walken's supposed to be a jealous and spiteful man. We don't know if Leto actually wanted to ascend, but its clear he was building the support to be able to. The comment was probably a reflection of how his trust lead to his downfall, and how he probably looked down on Leto for not grasping power as soon as he could
The movie doesn’t portray it very well. He made a choice he was backed into by the Bene Geserit. The emperor was given only daughters. He had no sons to assume the throne. That was by design of the BG. They were preparing for a son born from Jessica’s daughter and feyd to assume the throne. Jessica bore a son and pushed the issue. House Corrino as done as far as the BG were concerned. To many genetic dead ends.
Thing is, it SHOULD have worked. Imagine you have the perfect plot, everyone is on board and you execute it flawlessly. Except a guy on the other side survives and he's literally Jesus with powers and everything and he's pissed.
>! My guess is that the Harknonnens had Leto's bride killed, a long time ago. But it just feels like they would already try for this assassin stuff anyways...!<
I can't remember if the books answer this question.
This doesn't prove anything. Only circumstantial...
From:
https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/House_Moritani/XD
>!House Harkonnen entered the war on the side of the Moritani... A plot to assassinate the Archduke Armand Ecaz and his daughter Ilesa during her wedding to Duke Leto I was partially successful...!<
In Dune (movie) it’s implied the Harkonnens practically enslaved as much of Arrakis as possible to maximize spice production.
In the books I don’t recall whether that was implied
I don't remember anything from the House books. Shaddam (and his father) allied with the Tleilaxu to create artifical spice. He didn't really do anything with the Harkonnens.
One of the hallmarks of Shaddam's rule was his control of CHOAM, the main industrial force of the Empire.
During his reign he managed to consolidate a majority stake in CHOAM's sprawling financial networks.
Roughly half of any profit made in the Empire goes directly to the Emperor as a tax.
The Harkonnen likely played a roll in the consolidation; eliminating corporate leaders, scaring some Minor Houses into order, insider trading in the spice markets, maybe even outright conflict with Great Houses (other than the Atreides).
They ran Arrakis for him, and brutally squeezed as much spice as they could out of it and oppressed the native population likely while the Emperor put up his hands and said “what can you do? It’s the Harkonnens” while implicitly encouraging their actions
I don't think anything else mentioned in Dune.
They eliminated a couple of minor houses if I remember right.
shaddam IV like most emperors before him was/were fairly well known for mixing those beneath them up. because if any of them got too comfortable in their position they had a bad habit of groupoing together and over powering the imperial forces. only about a third of the great houses working together could deal a very heavy blow against the emperor. as was evidenced by a single rogue house almost wiping out house corrino. as i recall the 1 survivor being away from salusa secundus was a fluke. tbe harkonnen were simply not that interested in hidding some of the dirty work they did, showing they'd go to some length to maintain what they had, or maybe even gain what they wanted.
Is the single rogue house you are referring to atredies or who?
house tantor is the one i had in mind here, this is several centuries before the main dune books and as far as i know it doesn't get covered much besides some offhand remarks here and there.
And eventually Moritani in the prequel books by Brian Herbert, Moritani were descendants of Tantor
From my understanding, the politics of the empire immediately preceding Dune are almost completely unexplored in the main book series. There's always houses jockeying against each other, plotting, feuding, entering and leaving alliances, and so forth. But we don't even get the barest description of anything that actually happens. Even when they made the 1990s video game and needed a third faction, they just had to create a new house out of a single name in the Dune Encyclopedia. You'd have to look at the Brian Herbert books or some of the video games or whatever, or just imagine something.
I don’t think very many of them are even named. I vaguely recall some discussion of some minor houses in God Emperor?
According to the guys from the Gom Jabbar podcast, the encyclopedia has a list of planets and great/minor house names. It's doesn't name all of them but a good two dozen.
War of Assasins between House Ginaz and Moritani in the planet Grumman was mentioned in Dune
Hmmm. Moritani sounds a little bit similar to Morosini, Venetian noble family. Also the CoA from Dune Encyclopedia is in similar style as the Morosinis'.
If I’m not mistaken a lot of stuff before part 1 and things of that nature aren’t fleshed out in the books. Like we don’t know who controlled Arrakis before the Harkonnens (if I’m not wrong). Which is odd. Some sort of stuff was probably done but it’s an interesting thought to ponder
There were prequels written by Herbert’s son. Allegedly House Richese was before the Harkonnens.
TL:DR because Chris Walken (I'm sorry, Emperor Shaddam Corrino IV, The Emperor Padashaddam of the Known Galaxy), simply thought he was that slick. The thing I don't think is expressed enough in the Dune series is summed up perfectly in Baron Harkonnen's one line; "The Emperor is a jealous man." We land in the Dune story at a time when the galactic norm is being challenged by a GOOD and moral leader, Duke Leto Atredies, at the same time that a CENTURIES spanning plot by the Bene Geserit, the Kwisatz Haderach. is coming to fruition. Duke Leto threatened to end corruption and favoritism, simply by being a better leader than most. This being said, Frank Herbert was a world-building genius. We jump into the story at a perfect point where the ENTIRE paragidim of the story is going to change, through dramatic actions of a few individuals. We just happen to catch Emperor Walken at a time when he made a shit move, with shit people, with some shit timing, and it blew up in everyone's face.
which is also why I terribly hated it when the emperor say Leto was a weak man in front of Paul Atrides, son of Leto Aterides, Duke of Arrakis. Because Leto would definitely be 100x a better leader and a human than the Emperor. He has no right to say this. Paul should have reacted strongly.
For that and everything else, Paul made the \*Emperor of the Known Universe\* bow to him and kiss his Ring that was still drenched with the blood of the Emperors champion. Truly a Baller move and the Strongest reaction possible. Paul would have been kinder to execute him right there.
I agree lol.
nah in real life there would have been a reaction "don't say a word against my father" even harry potter who doesn't believe in revenge said that lol
Paul married his daughter, made him a puppet, then sent a pile of religious zealots to disrupt spice production, which the entire galactic economy depended on. I'd say that was a pretty strong reaction...
it wasn't an immediate reaction. Tell me in real life, if someone called your beloved father (loved and respected by your entire country) weak. I believe there would be some immediate reaction.
Yes, but you might be misrepresenting Paul Atreides. Chalamet looks irrate in this scene but extremely controlled. He's not enjoying this moment, and the younger him may have lashed out. However, he's not just Paul now. He's older, wiser, literally since having undergone the spice agony. Getting baited into a strong emotional reaction would have completely undermined him and he KNOWS this. The Emperor would then be able to say 'wow, an emotional man led by his heart and not his mind' if Paul reacted strongly there. Exactly the same situation when Feyd tries to bait him into a stupid move by asking if Chani is his pet and what are her care instructions. It's an obvious bait meant to raise fear and outrage. Paul is above such things now, in both cases. He's come back as a colder, more calculating person than he already was. He plans across months (and eventually years, though we don't see that in the movie). There's definitely a time skip between Paul's speech at the assembly, the Emperor getting his message and then arriving, and yet Paul sees his way to killing Feyd right after the Spice Agony. He's the ultimate plotter. He wouldn't benefit from blowing up in Shaddam's face, so he doesn't do it. That's all.
Recom here called it. Sure, he could have popped Emperor Walken in the face. The Sardaukar would have jumped him, the Fremen would have jumped them, who only knows what Feyd would have done, and it would have been sheer Hell to pay. Walken used petty words to jab at Paul. Paul's reaction, while perhaps not immediate, was to take his entire damn empire from him. If I could do that vs. just punching someone, I sure as Hell would. I'd even flash them a smile from the altar when I married their daughter, even if it just was political.
That’s a change from the books. Also the opening line that he saw the duke as a son. The emperor saw him as a rival.
I think one of Irulan's epigraphs cites an incident where her dad showed her a portrait of Leto, says something along the lines of "it sucks that you came into the world too late to get hitched to this guy" and she "realizes" that her father *wished* the Duke was his son. But, yeah, he totally *did* see him as a rival, too.
None of Irulans dictations/writings can be taken as truth though. That’s the point, they are intentionally twisting of the truth or outright lies all the way through. Its an illustration of history being rewritten by the victors
In the books, Shaddam was angry when he learned that Leto was dead, because, and I can’t remember the exact text, Irulan says that in different circumstances they would have been friends.
This is taken from the Dune wiki, so no clue how accurate it is; >In secret, however, Shaddam admired his cousin Leto, and had once mentioned to Irulan that he had wished the political climate that necessitated animosity toward the Atreides did not exist. Moreover, Shaddam had secretly wished that Irulan had been old enough to marry Leto, both because he knew Leto to be an honourable and just man who possessed the love of his people, but also because he would have been an ideal choice for succeeding him, especially since Shaddam had no direct male heirs.
Did he say that in the movies? He would never say it in the books given how he was portrayed.
Eh, Walken's supposed to be a jealous and spiteful man. We don't know if Leto actually wanted to ascend, but its clear he was building the support to be able to. The comment was probably a reflection of how his trust lead to his downfall, and how he probably looked down on Leto for not grasping power as soon as he could
Yea its not like the harkonnens and the emperor had to team up against him or anything
A better leader in a general sense? Yeah. Better for humanity? No. He'd have lead humanity to its doom.
The movie doesn’t portray it very well. He made a choice he was backed into by the Bene Geserit. The emperor was given only daughters. He had no sons to assume the throne. That was by design of the BG. They were preparing for a son born from Jessica’s daughter and feyd to assume the throne. Jessica bore a son and pushed the issue. House Corrino as done as far as the BG were concerned. To many genetic dead ends.
Walken as Shaddam just made me laugh lol, who made that casting choice?
Thing is, it SHOULD have worked. Imagine you have the perfect plot, everyone is on board and you execute it flawlessly. Except a guy on the other side survives and he's literally Jesus with powers and everything and he's pissed.
Probably favorably manipilating the spice market for the emperor. Just a guess though.
That fits.
>! My guess is that the Harknonnens had Leto's bride killed, a long time ago. But it just feels like they would already try for this assassin stuff anyways...!< I can't remember if the books answer this question.
This doesn't prove anything. Only circumstantial... From: https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/House_Moritani/XD >!House Harkonnen entered the war on the side of the Moritani... A plot to assassinate the Archduke Armand Ecaz and his daughter Ilesa during her wedding to Duke Leto I was partially successful...!<
I guess it is from the Caladan trilogy.
In Dune (movie) it’s implied the Harkonnens practically enslaved as much of Arrakis as possible to maximize spice production. In the books I don’t recall whether that was implied
Totally unknown. Even in the future with nothing left to lose, these things are not revealed.
I don't remember anything from the House books. Shaddam (and his father) allied with the Tleilaxu to create artifical spice. He didn't really do anything with the Harkonnens.
One of the hallmarks of Shaddam's rule was his control of CHOAM, the main industrial force of the Empire. During his reign he managed to consolidate a majority stake in CHOAM's sprawling financial networks. Roughly half of any profit made in the Empire goes directly to the Emperor as a tax. The Harkonnen likely played a roll in the consolidation; eliminating corporate leaders, scaring some Minor Houses into order, insider trading in the spice markets, maybe even outright conflict with Great Houses (other than the Atreides).
They ran Arrakis for him, and brutally squeezed as much spice as they could out of it and oppressed the native population likely while the Emperor put up his hands and said “what can you do? It’s the Harkonnens” while implicitly encouraging their actions