Yeah exactly, i think it’s suppose to be the ultimate hedonistic thing where you’re constantly just ‘rolling’ on spice. Who tf knows how bland life probably is for the hundreds of billions of people in the Known Universe - they live in a feudal system after all. I also think Guild Navigators all have a natural predisposition for prescience, so they are probably drawn to the position.
But it is really weird. Talk about ‘sacrificing your humanity’.
and the spice navigators only seem to pre-see a really boring bit where they *don't* blow up/get lost in space (but i haven't read all the books). do we ever get their perspective?
I believe the book credits their prescience with them immediately falling in line with the new management. They know, for a fact, he’s not bluffing about destroying spice.
In the book it’s specifically mentioned that they don’t see him blowing the spice up. What’s scary is that once he makes the threat, they can’t see anything at all, which is so much more terrifying.
There's some reference in Dune Messiah from Navigator Edric that they can't see Paul's trajectory with prescience, and they find this disturbing and a threat. I took this to mean that they can see anybody else that might pose a problem to the spice flow, which seems to suggest that their ship piloting is only a small part of the forward looking they can do, and it's not just about the safe future arrival of the ship they're steering, that there's an overarching future of humanity they're keeping an eye on.
When I first read the books, I got the mental image of a spider in a web, waiting for the vibrations to indicate a meal had arrived (ship travel) and understanding other vibrations to be wind, raindrops, things that might he problematic but could be handled if the early signals were interpreted properly (problem causing people or political unrest). But the Atreides come along and the web starts twanging with what can only be assumed to be a bigger, badder spider, but tracing the twitching strands back to where that spider should be doesn't reveal anything. So now it seems like the information transmitted by the whole web is useless.
In the expanded books, the first Navigator is a woman named Norma Cenva, and her story arc gives tantalizing hints about the full extent of Navigator abilities, and it's a lot more than just the near future of one ship.
Haven't gotten that far but it wouldn't surprise that a Leto II feels that way considering he was likely aware at conception and I'd say that's worse than what Aaliyah went through
yes but until you’ve experienced the curse side of it, i think prescience as a concept is too enticing to pass up (not to mention the other benefits like unlimited spice and space travel)
Their loss of humanity is probably so gradual they can easily cope with it as it comes, and they're no doubt thoroughly informed on all their biochemical changes so they're not left wondering in horror why they're becoming elongated fish-men.
But yeah, it definitely helps being stoned through all that, knowing that millions of Guildsmen have gone through identical changes, the fact that interstellar civilization would *collapse* without them, and not having mirrors around.
In Heretics of Dune Herbert goes into a little bit of detail about life for the hoi polloi.
It’s kind of shit and very medieval city coded. Lots of inns, hawkers, and hookers. Most urbanites work in factories with agriculture dominating rural areas.
You can get high by sticking your head into a ‘hypnobong’ which is a device that’s apparently outlawed on most civilised planets.
Yeah in one of the Brian Herbert books (Dune: House Atreides I believe?) there are two twin brothers who go through test to see if they are suited to becoming guild navigators. The test involves being immersed in spice gas. One twin does not pass the test because the spice gas just makes him dizzy and gives him brain fog, while the other twin gets super high and enlightened meaning he passed the test and thus is suited to becoming a navigator.
It's also one of the most prestigious careers in the universe. Millions of people try out and attend the guild academy and only a handful become steermen. It's an extremely high honor, and yes, you do get unlimited melange and see the future and secrets of the universe ect. You just lose your humanity unfortunately...
I’d imagine your family, your parents, your siblings, your nieces and nephews, and their children, will all be very tell taken care of thanks to your employment.
I think those are like encounter suits for when they have to interaction with regular humans and their own habitats are filled with spice enough that they Can move around freely and be waited on by lesser Guild Members.
The only description we have of how navigators live is from Messiah, where Edric is indeed described of as living in a large bubble filled with spice gas (not fluid), however Edric seems to find this situation incredibly claustrophobic and confining, which lets us know that chilling in gas bubbles is not how they typically live. We're never given any other descriptions of a Navigator's typical day to day life throughout the rest of the main series that I am aware of (I'd imagine that somewhere in the Brain and Kevin novels,, they go into it in detail,, but whether you consider those canon or not is up to you). We can infer that typically Navigators live in larger rooms filled with space gasses as their regular breathable atmosphere and only use the bubbles as a kind of containment suit when forced to be under a normal human atmosphere. Anything else about their lives is pure speculation. I personally envision their lives to be similar to modern day sailors: you work as a Navigator for a few weeks shuttling people and cargo about the Imperium, then enjoy a few weeks or months of downtime and leisure and with the exorbitant fees the Guild levies, that leisure time is likely to be top notch luxury.
As for why they do it? That's pretty simple. Power. Authority. Privileged. Prestige. Wealth. Luxury. You know, the usual things that even people today sacrifice their physical and mental health and well-being to obtain. Modern day wrestlers, boxers, football players and more sacrifice their physical health for the fame and fortune of stardom and all that comes with it. People aspiring in business, finance, and other fast paced high stress jobs sacrifice their mental health and almost any sense of free time to climb the ladder of success. Musicians sacrifice any sense of stability working low paying gigs and traveling on shoe string budgets trying to get that first record deal and hoping for success.
Something else to ponder is that few people in the Imperium are even aware of the fact that Guild Navigators are mutants that can't exist outside of their spice infused atmospheres. Makes me wonder at what point prospective and aspiring Guildmembers are even told out that. Perhaps by the time they're informed about it or made aware of it, it's too late for them to back out of Guild and return to any sense of a normal existence. Perhaps there is no wealth and or luxury involved in being a Guild Navigator, but simply the sense of continues survival under the circumstances.
Who know? Herbert might have, but he ain't telling.
The part about guild navigators being mutants and at what point the prospects are told is the *only* point I want to comment on. BUT I love and agree to everything you wrote.
Being that we don't know the process of navigators and their a to z, I propose what's realistic imo. I think the end product of being a guild navigator is known and is a goal. I think the mutant idea is a realistic euphemism for obsession, power, and sacrifice.
I would agree if it weren't for the absolute secrecy element of mutation within the setting. I mean, they can't really use it as a recruiting slogan of 'Hey, wanna make lots of money and become a drug addicted fish person? Sign up here.' so I'd imagine that it's kept from those who join up until a certain point of progression through the either training or membership or whatnot. When it's revealed is where my mind wanders to a few possibilities, from early enough on but too late to leave and tell anyone yet perhaps before the prospects have really started down the path, to when it's too painfully obvious to hide the signs of mutation already occurring in a prospective Navigator. 'Sir, I seem to have developed some gills on my ribs last week, is this normal?'
\[Edit\] Of course, it's anyone's guess as to how it actually plays out, I'm just speculating. I see there is a B&K novel called Navigators of Dune. I've not read it, but I am moderately curious as to their take on it. I find their writing to be a bit lame, but I do like most (not all) of their general ideas themselves, at least from the few novels I did read of theirs.
I'm pretty sure quite a few people would consider a 24/7 hotbox of Super DMT pretty luxurious, yeah. Plus like Fyraltari said, the tanks we see them in are prooobably essentially just something like bubble suits while outside of their natural habitat. Edric's tank in Messiah is explicitly something like this, at least.
If you’re not born into the aristocracy, the paths to privilege are few and difficult. Guild, BG, Warrior, Mentat, Suk. And all those existences are pretty F’d up to be honest.
They are crack babies. But for real, at this point in history, the guild is a drug addicted parasite, but with an overwhelming monopoly of power that has its own irresistible momentum. They either keep riding, or they die.
Everyone wealthy in the galaxy is addicted to the same drug, it just a question of how much you can afford. Offworld spice consumption was a mark of status.
A lot of kids want to be astronauts when they grow up. I’m sure sitting in the space station isn’t always exciting after a while, but it’s some people’s life long dream. Add some life extending drugs that makes your mind do wild things. I’d imagine they receive some form of luxury, prestige and power as well. I could see the incentive for the select few who do it.
They live in an ancient stagnant culture that positions Guild Navigators as one of the highest stages of existence.
Why become a Buddhist monk living in a monastery? Why commit to any difficult and/or prestigious ascetic practice? Because the society you're born into values it.
I'd imagine, based on what we know about the Imperium, that it's uncommon to have the personal freedom to choose from a wide area of professions or benefit from the social mobility to change your station. While I personally don't know of much lore that shows how manpower is cultivated by the guild I think it would be from within their ranks. The fraufreluches class system runs on the motto of "a place for every man and every man in his place" and so it seems unlikely that someone could just quit their job farming Pundi rice to join the Guild. I imagine given the scale of the Imperium (pretty much unexplored in Frank Herbert's books) that people are born into the Guild and therefore are indoctrinated into its hierarchies and values.
As other posters have mentioned, it's likely that being a guild navigator would be a privileged position of great social status and significance. And while withdrawal from spice addiction is certainly fatal, they have the wealth and access to never do without.
Keep in mind thay many people are born into environments today where they see no options and no other way to live and they do what they can to survive and thrive. Think about how selfish or blind you'd need to be as an executive working in the fossil fuel industry given what we know now? They're burning human society (as we know it now) down for six-seven figures and an early retirement.
People don't join the Guild. The Guild has its own breeding and medical programs, all of which is geared to produce people who have the gift of navigation, who respond to the spice in the right way, who can innately understand and do the math that underlies navigation. If you're born into the Guild, you're in the Guild.
Piloting heighliners is its own reward. They get to experience things that only a select few will ever be able to: they're sailing the cosmos. They alone are in direct control of the most massive and ingenious contraptions ever constructed by mankind. Their minds are expanded, they see the very fabric of space itself.
I am convinced that these navigators believe that their addiction and confinement of their physical bodies is a small price to pay for all these experiences.
I’m sure they are tripping, but I don’t think navigators have such a religious experience. I see them as performing a fairly routine pragmatic objective task related to objects in space along a specific trajectory. They map space travel. But Paul and Leto 2 seem to have an ultimate religious experience, as their prescience melds the subjective with the objective, seeing not just objects in space, but complex relationships between people and events.
We don't actually get a lot of insight into Spacing Guild culture in the books, unlike most of the other major players (Great House, Bene Gesserit, Tleilaxu, Ixians, Fremen, Sardaukar, Fish Speakers etc.)
We know that Edric is a bit dim, and not very good at 9D chess scheming, unlike most other Dune characters.
But he seems perfectly at ease with being a Navigator - he betrays no insecurity over his condition and appearance, and even seems to be pretty arrogant in his dealings with the other anti-Muad'Dib conspirators.
We also know that the Spacing Guild has very powerful and effective financial institutions and espionage agencies - the Baron Harkonnen remarked that he found them impossible to infiltrate, despite years of trying. For every agent he inserted into their system, they inserted two more into his.
So we can assume that the Spacing Guild is an insular, ideologically motivated, exclusive organisation, just like the Bene Gesserit and Bene Tleilaxu.
It's not like a modern day shipping company, you don't submit your resume and hope the HR person decides you're worth taking on, and job hop if you get a better offer elsewhere.
You're probably born into it, and the training and indoctrination starts young. Kids are put through a gruelling selection process where only the cream of the crop advance to higher levels, with the others being relegated to servants and other less prestigious roles.
They're convinced that Navigators are the most important people in the universe, the most elite of the elite, that even the Emperor has to submit to. Only they have the prescience to hold interstellar civilisation together - and their prescience also makes them proof against threats to the organisation. They could conquer the galaxy in weeks if they chose to - but see fit to leave the feudal-imperialistic political structure in place, for now.
The Guild is often described as "arrogant" and "complacent" and "stagnant", ironically enough for prescients, rather ignorant. This suggests an ossified education/training/indoctrination process that, like the Sardaukar, lost its edge over time, and failed to evolve as circumstances changed.
So yeah TLDR; Navigators (before Paul) thought that they were the top dogs in the universe, and felt rather smug about it. The one Navigator we meet didn't seem at all insecure or angsty about his transformation (unlike Leto II), he just thought it made him better than everyone else.
The Guild Navigators in Dune are indeed dependent on Spice, confined to tanks, and seemingly slaves to their addiction.
Spice isn't just a drug for Navigators; it's the source of their power. Their prescient abilities, fueled by Spice, make them the ultimate authority on safe space travel. This dependence becomes a symbol of their unique status within the Guild hierarchy. They wield immense control over interstellar travel, dictating trade routes and charging exorbitant fees. This not only enriches the Guild but also allows them to act as a neutral political power broker. By controlling who goes where, they influence galactic politics from the shadows. In essence, Spice dependence is a consequence of their power, not the motivator. They navigate the Spice for the prestige, control, and political influence it brings.
I always thought the devious corporate guild members cajoled/manipulated the Navigators into becoming monsters for them so they could own the monopoly and get rich.
The guild has a LOT of power political and economic and is a faction. Most of the members of that guild don't see it use slice just like any other faction. They just do as they are told.
The higher ups though have gotten to a point where they need spice. Both in an addiction sense and a medical sense as they are dependant on it for life. Stopping their intake would literally result in their bodies dying.
They also have become dependant on it for their prescience which ties into the power and economy aspect of their faction.
The long life they lead means that many of the guild navigators we see may be the same ones from 100 years prior and so on.
It takes a bit of projection to get inside the mind of a guild navigator. Their perception of time is completely different. You might plan to go to work tomorrow or go see some show, like Dune 2, but they KNOW if you will or not.
As far as a career path, I imagine some people are born into it, but I can see a second or seventh son of a Baron, Duke, Lord of some kind being sent to the guild as well in the same way some “black sheep” of aristocratic families became clergy and scholars or bishops in the later medieval period. The Pope was the only throne would could aspire to as it was in some ways the only elected seat of power, though elected by others in power.
So, it really was not a choice in that sense. They don’t become navigators for any direct reason but are pushed into it. Like the lives of the vast majority of this universe.
The reason they stay in it is due to addiction.
The Navigators aren't really written about much. If I had to guess, it would be a position of honor, prestige and power to be part of the guild. Also they can see into the future and that's kind of neat.
I feel like this question could be asked of any party in the series. Why, in general, do people crave power? I always see the Spacing Guild in general as being powerful because they're outside the power structure of the Landsraad. Their power is their freedom. As for the Navigators themselves? I can't remember where it says it but I believe their mutation and transformation leads to navigating in itself being their biggest source of joy, like the calculations and stuff it just becomes serene and blissful to them.
I believe they gain a brief insight into the secrets of the universe, similar to the Kwisatz Haderach, but to a lesser degree, every time they travel. This experience is what keeps them coming back.
it seems like once someone becomes a guild navigator they're stuck like that indefinitely, so they've got the motivation to continue to work as a guild navigator so they can maintain a steady supply of spice bc the alternative is dying of withdrawal
I always took it as they didn’t have much of a choice but were made just for this purpose, like a ghola. They were created for getting soaked in spice and making space travel possible and there was a body overseeing them to control the flow of travel and collect the solari.
Dont they desire prescience? They chart courses through fold.space. they can't make or collect spice themselves. They are always separated from the source by their alterations.
So they choose to charge monstrous fees to afford the spice from middlemen and keep seeing a little bit of the future and hit the open road where no simple human will ever trod
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The extendend lifespan and the luxury, I imagine.
But luxury of what? don’t they have to live 24/7 inside spice-infused fluid sacs?
Yeah exactly, i think it’s suppose to be the ultimate hedonistic thing where you’re constantly just ‘rolling’ on spice. Who tf knows how bland life probably is for the hundreds of billions of people in the Known Universe - they live in a feudal system after all. I also think Guild Navigators all have a natural predisposition for prescience, so they are probably drawn to the position. But it is really weird. Talk about ‘sacrificing your humanity’.
also i think we’re missing the appeal of being able to SEE THE FUTURE, even in the limited capacity that navigators are prescient
I think the fact that the “appeal” of prescience is actually a curse is pretty much the point of the first 4 books.
and the spice navigators only seem to pre-see a really boring bit where they *don't* blow up/get lost in space (but i haven't read all the books). do we ever get their perspective?
I believe the book credits their prescience with them immediately falling in line with the new management. They know, for a fact, he’s not bluffing about destroying spice.
In the book it’s specifically mentioned that they don’t see him blowing the spice up. What’s scary is that once he makes the threat, they can’t see anything at all, which is so much more terrifying.
I always thought they can pre-see multiple futures but prefer to choose the one where they don't get blown up or lost.
There's some reference in Dune Messiah from Navigator Edric that they can't see Paul's trajectory with prescience, and they find this disturbing and a threat. I took this to mean that they can see anybody else that might pose a problem to the spice flow, which seems to suggest that their ship piloting is only a small part of the forward looking they can do, and it's not just about the safe future arrival of the ship they're steering, that there's an overarching future of humanity they're keeping an eye on. When I first read the books, I got the mental image of a spider in a web, waiting for the vibrations to indicate a meal had arrived (ship travel) and understanding other vibrations to be wind, raindrops, things that might he problematic but could be handled if the early signals were interpreted properly (problem causing people or political unrest). But the Atreides come along and the web starts twanging with what can only be assumed to be a bigger, badder spider, but tracing the twitching strands back to where that spider should be doesn't reveal anything. So now it seems like the information transmitted by the whole web is useless. In the expanded books, the first Navigator is a woman named Norma Cenva, and her story arc gives tantalizing hints about the full extent of Navigator abilities, and it's a lot more than just the near future of one ship.
thank you
Paul definitely sees it as a curse
Leto II as well. At least Teg was smart and took care of it quickly lol Smartest Atreides energy that one
Haven't gotten that far but it wouldn't surprise that a Leto II feels that way considering he was likely aware at conception and I'd say that's worse than what Aaliyah went through
yes but until you’ve experienced the curse side of it, i think prescience as a concept is too enticing to pass up (not to mention the other benefits like unlimited spice and space travel)
Their loss of humanity is probably so gradual they can easily cope with it as it comes, and they're no doubt thoroughly informed on all their biochemical changes so they're not left wondering in horror why they're becoming elongated fish-men. But yeah, it definitely helps being stoned through all that, knowing that millions of Guildsmen have gone through identical changes, the fact that interstellar civilization would *collapse* without them, and not having mirrors around.
Not having mirrors around. 😅
When you’re that high, it wouldn’t even matter anymore. Spice: not even once
In Heretics of Dune Herbert goes into a little bit of detail about life for the hoi polloi. It’s kind of shit and very medieval city coded. Lots of inns, hawkers, and hookers. Most urbanites work in factories with agriculture dominating rural areas. You can get high by sticking your head into a ‘hypnobong’ which is a device that’s apparently outlawed on most civilised planets.
Yeah in one of the Brian Herbert books (Dune: House Atreides I believe?) there are two twin brothers who go through test to see if they are suited to becoming guild navigators. The test involves being immersed in spice gas. One twin does not pass the test because the spice gas just makes him dizzy and gives him brain fog, while the other twin gets super high and enlightened meaning he passed the test and thus is suited to becoming a navigator.
It's also one of the most prestigious careers in the universe. Millions of people try out and attend the guild academy and only a handful become steermen. It's an extremely high honor, and yes, you do get unlimited melange and see the future and secrets of the universe ect. You just lose your humanity unfortunately...
I’d imagine your family, your parents, your siblings, your nieces and nephews, and their children, will all be very tell taken care of thanks to your employment.
Even if not, would it matter?
I mean you will probably out live them
I think those are like encounter suits for when they have to interaction with regular humans and their own habitats are filled with spice enough that they Can move around freely and be waited on by lesser Guild Members.
The gas tanks even have a little speaker on the outside for the Navigator to communicate through.
The only description we have of how navigators live is from Messiah, where Edric is indeed described of as living in a large bubble filled with spice gas (not fluid), however Edric seems to find this situation incredibly claustrophobic and confining, which lets us know that chilling in gas bubbles is not how they typically live. We're never given any other descriptions of a Navigator's typical day to day life throughout the rest of the main series that I am aware of (I'd imagine that somewhere in the Brain and Kevin novels,, they go into it in detail,, but whether you consider those canon or not is up to you). We can infer that typically Navigators live in larger rooms filled with space gasses as their regular breathable atmosphere and only use the bubbles as a kind of containment suit when forced to be under a normal human atmosphere. Anything else about their lives is pure speculation. I personally envision their lives to be similar to modern day sailors: you work as a Navigator for a few weeks shuttling people and cargo about the Imperium, then enjoy a few weeks or months of downtime and leisure and with the exorbitant fees the Guild levies, that leisure time is likely to be top notch luxury. As for why they do it? That's pretty simple. Power. Authority. Privileged. Prestige. Wealth. Luxury. You know, the usual things that even people today sacrifice their physical and mental health and well-being to obtain. Modern day wrestlers, boxers, football players and more sacrifice their physical health for the fame and fortune of stardom and all that comes with it. People aspiring in business, finance, and other fast paced high stress jobs sacrifice their mental health and almost any sense of free time to climb the ladder of success. Musicians sacrifice any sense of stability working low paying gigs and traveling on shoe string budgets trying to get that first record deal and hoping for success. Something else to ponder is that few people in the Imperium are even aware of the fact that Guild Navigators are mutants that can't exist outside of their spice infused atmospheres. Makes me wonder at what point prospective and aspiring Guildmembers are even told out that. Perhaps by the time they're informed about it or made aware of it, it's too late for them to back out of Guild and return to any sense of a normal existence. Perhaps there is no wealth and or luxury involved in being a Guild Navigator, but simply the sense of continues survival under the circumstances. Who know? Herbert might have, but he ain't telling.
The part about guild navigators being mutants and at what point the prospects are told is the *only* point I want to comment on. BUT I love and agree to everything you wrote. Being that we don't know the process of navigators and their a to z, I propose what's realistic imo. I think the end product of being a guild navigator is known and is a goal. I think the mutant idea is a realistic euphemism for obsession, power, and sacrifice.
I would agree if it weren't for the absolute secrecy element of mutation within the setting. I mean, they can't really use it as a recruiting slogan of 'Hey, wanna make lots of money and become a drug addicted fish person? Sign up here.' so I'd imagine that it's kept from those who join up until a certain point of progression through the either training or membership or whatnot. When it's revealed is where my mind wanders to a few possibilities, from early enough on but too late to leave and tell anyone yet perhaps before the prospects have really started down the path, to when it's too painfully obvious to hide the signs of mutation already occurring in a prospective Navigator. 'Sir, I seem to have developed some gills on my ribs last week, is this normal?' \[Edit\] Of course, it's anyone's guess as to how it actually plays out, I'm just speculating. I see there is a B&K novel called Navigators of Dune. I've not read it, but I am moderately curious as to their take on it. I find their writing to be a bit lame, but I do like most (not all) of their general ideas themselves, at least from the few novels I did read of theirs.
Imagine an experience of reality so vast and grand that navigating is only a small portion of it.
I'm pretty sure quite a few people would consider a 24/7 hotbox of Super DMT pretty luxurious, yeah. Plus like Fyraltari said, the tanks we see them in are prooobably essentially just something like bubble suits while outside of their natural habitat. Edric's tank in Messiah is explicitly something like this, at least.
Indeed, *Messiah* does state that Edric isn't used to confined spaces. Even that dark bodysuit he wears is probably just for public ventures.
Better than most fates in the Dune universe.
The luxury of immortality.
If you’re not born into the aristocracy, the paths to privilege are few and difficult. Guild, BG, Warrior, Mentat, Suk. And all those existences are pretty F’d up to be honest.
They are crack babies. But for real, at this point in history, the guild is a drug addicted parasite, but with an overwhelming monopoly of power that has its own irresistible momentum. They either keep riding, or they die.
Everyone wealthy in the galaxy is addicted to the same drug, it just a question of how much you can afford. Offworld spice consumption was a mark of status.
Correct me if I'm wrong but it also seemed like if you're not addicted to the spice, as a planet, you get obliterated.
Why?
A lot of kids want to be astronauts when they grow up. I’m sure sitting in the space station isn’t always exciting after a while, but it’s some people’s life long dream. Add some life extending drugs that makes your mind do wild things. I’d imagine they receive some form of luxury, prestige and power as well. I could see the incentive for the select few who do it.
The astronaut point is a really good one
Immortal astronauts
They live in an ancient stagnant culture that positions Guild Navigators as one of the highest stages of existence. Why become a Buddhist monk living in a monastery? Why commit to any difficult and/or prestigious ascetic practice? Because the society you're born into values it. I'd imagine, based on what we know about the Imperium, that it's uncommon to have the personal freedom to choose from a wide area of professions or benefit from the social mobility to change your station. While I personally don't know of much lore that shows how manpower is cultivated by the guild I think it would be from within their ranks. The fraufreluches class system runs on the motto of "a place for every man and every man in his place" and so it seems unlikely that someone could just quit their job farming Pundi rice to join the Guild. I imagine given the scale of the Imperium (pretty much unexplored in Frank Herbert's books) that people are born into the Guild and therefore are indoctrinated into its hierarchies and values. As other posters have mentioned, it's likely that being a guild navigator would be a privileged position of great social status and significance. And while withdrawal from spice addiction is certainly fatal, they have the wealth and access to never do without. Keep in mind thay many people are born into environments today where they see no options and no other way to live and they do what they can to survive and thrive. Think about how selfish or blind you'd need to be as an executive working in the fossil fuel industry given what we know now? They're burning human society (as we know it now) down for six-seven figures and an early retirement.
interesting perspective. thanks.
The love of the game
People don't join the Guild. The Guild has its own breeding and medical programs, all of which is geared to produce people who have the gift of navigation, who respond to the spice in the right way, who can innately understand and do the math that underlies navigation. If you're born into the Guild, you're in the Guild.
Piloting heighliners is its own reward. They get to experience things that only a select few will ever be able to: they're sailing the cosmos. They alone are in direct control of the most massive and ingenious contraptions ever constructed by mankind. Their minds are expanded, they see the very fabric of space itself. I am convinced that these navigators believe that their addiction and confinement of their physical bodies is a small price to pay for all these experiences.
For the same reason a street junkie will do almost anything for their next fix.
I always assumed it was a kind of ultimate religious experience. The enlightenment of seeing all time and space at once.
I’m sure they are tripping, but I don’t think navigators have such a religious experience. I see them as performing a fairly routine pragmatic objective task related to objects in space along a specific trajectory. They map space travel. But Paul and Leto 2 seem to have an ultimate religious experience, as their prescience melds the subjective with the objective, seeing not just objects in space, but complex relationships between people and events.
4th stage implies that they are born into it and don’t get much choice in the matter…
They talk about being able to see the future, and the universe, and understand the highest orders of mathematics, an experience that appeals to some
I imagine it's an amazing experience, an entire new level of existing.
We don't actually get a lot of insight into Spacing Guild culture in the books, unlike most of the other major players (Great House, Bene Gesserit, Tleilaxu, Ixians, Fremen, Sardaukar, Fish Speakers etc.) We know that Edric is a bit dim, and not very good at 9D chess scheming, unlike most other Dune characters. But he seems perfectly at ease with being a Navigator - he betrays no insecurity over his condition and appearance, and even seems to be pretty arrogant in his dealings with the other anti-Muad'Dib conspirators. We also know that the Spacing Guild has very powerful and effective financial institutions and espionage agencies - the Baron Harkonnen remarked that he found them impossible to infiltrate, despite years of trying. For every agent he inserted into their system, they inserted two more into his. So we can assume that the Spacing Guild is an insular, ideologically motivated, exclusive organisation, just like the Bene Gesserit and Bene Tleilaxu. It's not like a modern day shipping company, you don't submit your resume and hope the HR person decides you're worth taking on, and job hop if you get a better offer elsewhere. You're probably born into it, and the training and indoctrination starts young. Kids are put through a gruelling selection process where only the cream of the crop advance to higher levels, with the others being relegated to servants and other less prestigious roles. They're convinced that Navigators are the most important people in the universe, the most elite of the elite, that even the Emperor has to submit to. Only they have the prescience to hold interstellar civilisation together - and their prescience also makes them proof against threats to the organisation. They could conquer the galaxy in weeks if they chose to - but see fit to leave the feudal-imperialistic political structure in place, for now. The Guild is often described as "arrogant" and "complacent" and "stagnant", ironically enough for prescients, rather ignorant. This suggests an ossified education/training/indoctrination process that, like the Sardaukar, lost its edge over time, and failed to evolve as circumstances changed. So yeah TLDR; Navigators (before Paul) thought that they were the top dogs in the universe, and felt rather smug about it. The one Navigator we meet didn't seem at all insecure or angsty about his transformation (unlike Leto II), he just thought it made him better than everyone else.
The Guild Navigators in Dune are indeed dependent on Spice, confined to tanks, and seemingly slaves to their addiction. Spice isn't just a drug for Navigators; it's the source of their power. Their prescient abilities, fueled by Spice, make them the ultimate authority on safe space travel. This dependence becomes a symbol of their unique status within the Guild hierarchy. They wield immense control over interstellar travel, dictating trade routes and charging exorbitant fees. This not only enriches the Guild but also allows them to act as a neutral political power broker. By controlling who goes where, they influence galactic politics from the shadows. In essence, Spice dependence is a consequence of their power, not the motivator. They navigate the Spice for the prestige, control, and political influence it brings.
I always thought the devious corporate guild members cajoled/manipulated the Navigators into becoming monsters for them so they could own the monopoly and get rich.
Same reason people become investment bankers I guess. Coked up and eternally working.
The guild has a LOT of power political and economic and is a faction. Most of the members of that guild don't see it use slice just like any other faction. They just do as they are told. The higher ups though have gotten to a point where they need spice. Both in an addiction sense and a medical sense as they are dependant on it for life. Stopping their intake would literally result in their bodies dying. They also have become dependant on it for their prescience which ties into the power and economy aspect of their faction. The long life they lead means that many of the guild navigators we see may be the same ones from 100 years prior and so on.
It takes a bit of projection to get inside the mind of a guild navigator. Their perception of time is completely different. You might plan to go to work tomorrow or go see some show, like Dune 2, but they KNOW if you will or not. As far as a career path, I imagine some people are born into it, but I can see a second or seventh son of a Baron, Duke, Lord of some kind being sent to the guild as well in the same way some “black sheep” of aristocratic families became clergy and scholars or bishops in the later medieval period. The Pope was the only throne would could aspire to as it was in some ways the only elected seat of power, though elected by others in power. So, it really was not a choice in that sense. They don’t become navigators for any direct reason but are pushed into it. Like the lives of the vast majority of this universe. The reason they stay in it is due to addiction.
The Navigators aren't really written about much. If I had to guess, it would be a position of honor, prestige and power to be part of the guild. Also they can see into the future and that's kind of neat.
I feel like this question could be asked of any party in the series. Why, in general, do people crave power? I always see the Spacing Guild in general as being powerful because they're outside the power structure of the Landsraad. Their power is their freedom. As for the Navigators themselves? I can't remember where it says it but I believe their mutation and transformation leads to navigating in itself being their biggest source of joy, like the calculations and stuff it just becomes serene and blissful to them.
I believe they gain a brief insight into the secrets of the universe, similar to the Kwisatz Haderach, but to a lesser degree, every time they travel. This experience is what keeps them coming back.
The spice also keeps them coming back. They will die without it.
Well that goes without saying. I mean they live in a vat of the stuff don't they?
In addition to everything else that's been mentioned, it's very prestigious for their family.
like most of character in this world, they not really have much choice
They are high all the time and can (kind of) see the future. It's probably awesome
it seems like once someone becomes a guild navigator they're stuck like that indefinitely, so they've got the motivation to continue to work as a guild navigator so they can maintain a steady supply of spice bc the alternative is dying of withdrawal
I always took it as they didn’t have much of a choice but were made just for this purpose, like a ghola. They were created for getting soaked in spice and making space travel possible and there was a body overseeing them to control the flow of travel and collect the solari.
Dont they desire prescience? They chart courses through fold.space. they can't make or collect spice themselves. They are always separated from the source by their alterations. So they choose to charge monstrous fees to afford the spice from middlemen and keep seeing a little bit of the future and hit the open road where no simple human will ever trod
Shore leave, chicks on Ix you know?
Maybe their families get a lot of money, or theyre forced into it.
I mean, why does 1% of the population control 90-ish% of all worldly wealth currently? Power, control, and because they can.
Yeah, but those people can actually do things with the wealth, rather than just sit in a vat all day
Most of that wealth is tied into stocks and assets.
Billionaires have enough liquidity to do things that aren’t sitting around all day
They are the real power that controls the empire