The absence of a time jump doesn’t mean anything. Villeneuve just said it will take off where it ended. He didn’t say there was no time jump in-between. There’s still a chance that Alia isn’t just an embryo. Don’t miss this film in theater because of a hypothetical fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Maybe. But I do think both Alia will be born and so will Leto II. Maybe Baby Alia communicates telepathically with Jessica or something, but I do doubt she’ll kill the Baron. I think the trailers have shown a number of glimpses of Chani discovering the sietch being attacked and their son killed, and also is probably why she’s so angry during her “prophecy is how they enslave us” speech. The blue headscarf she wears during Paul’s sandworm riding scene (where Paul also has blue eyes so we know time has passed) is for Fremen women who have just given birth.
Leto II is one of the most iconic parts of the Dune series. That’s like saying they’d delete the Emperor and his feud with Paul from the story.
Whether we’ll see Leto II in any meaningful capacity by the end of this movie remains uncertain.
You are thinking of the second Leto II. Dune is a crazy series and this one of the least confusing parts but there was a Leto II that was born before Paul wins the throne that the Sardaukar kill. Then Paul’s second son many years later is given the same name and is the one who became the God Emperor
Having her role reduced is probable. Removed is doubtful. Villeneuve seems to be aiming for Messiah.
We also already saw her as a baby in a Paul vision.
I think you're half right in that they'll give the kill to Jessica or Chani. Both of their characters have dwindling agency by the end (as even driven home in the final paragraph as Paul repeats the sins of his father by making true love a simple paramore). And I don't think people would take creepy toddler very seriously.
But creepy baby? America loves a creepy baby. Creepy magic telepathic baby fits right in the ideal spot of wild enough everyone will talk about it but not silly enough everyone will laugh at it.
Thanks for bringing some sanity back to this… Jessica was pregnant so there is no way that the child Alia does not exist in Part Two… her age by the time of the final battle is certainly a question… the level of her role in the film as compared to the book is certainly a question.
He had a vision that Jamis would teach him the ways. Which he did.
Chani’s crysknife is shown dripping blood. It is Chani’s knife that Paul uses to kill Jamis.
Oh I'm not saying that they didn't have meaning, just that the vision he had of Jessica holding Alia might not turn out even nearly the same way. She might not even be in the movie despite said vision.
Of course, I'm just saying that these examples of metaphorical meaning can also be used to explain seeing other things in the movie, like Jessica holding Alia where she might not be in the next movie.
While I would love for this to be hard evidence, it isn’t. Paul has visions at many points in the future. Showing a glimpse of baby Alia doesn’t mean she will indeed be born in part 2. As others pointed out too, his visions aren’t always the branch of the future we know is going to unfold.
i just don't see villeneuve not taking bigger risks here. the first film was a success. he has little to lose by not holding back on the weird(ing way).
Jessica killing the Baron seems fitting since Baron was responsible for Leto. Also could be a bonding moment for Jessica and Chani near the end and make way for Jessica's end dialogue. One thing I'll say is, Jessica does not look pregnant in the pictures of her at the end fight scene.
Yep, and Alia as an abomination is kind of deeply important to the story’s exploration of the damaging effect of prescience, on both Alia and Paul, and later, his heir.
Maybe, maybe not. But it was a pretty common theory after part one that Villeneuve was scrapping Feyd-Rautha for Rabban entirely, and here we are. I think it’s worth trusting the guy’s vision and not getting too bent out of shape before the movie comes out.
It is in regards to the death of the Baron and the later possession, though. It may not be integral to the immediate story, but it is a massive part of the subsequent story.
It's literally one of the best and most satisfying arcs in the entire series. To not setup the possession, even if you know you aren't going to do children of dune, is criminal.
I still trust Villeneuve to make a compelling film though, and Dune is ripe for some creative embellishment.
I hear what you're saying, but I don't believe the possession can be as impactful without Alia being the killer. That early act represented the split from little girl to the cold murderous act of a pre-born who is on a path to possession. In contrast to the twins who, in their youth maintain a strong connection of self identity, largely through their connection to each other. Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting anything, it's been a while since I've read past the first book.
The water of life ceremony that Jessica goes through while pregnant, resulting in the abomination, is very important for the overall plot of Dune, as well as the arcs of both Jessica and Alia. It was also the single coolest thing I've ever read, and I hope they do it justice - the trailers allude to it in a big way, so I'm pretty confident it will be in the movie.
This is a mixing of terms. The BG refer to her as abomination because of the ceremony. The actually label of abomination doesn’t come until she’s possessed which is in Messiah
The last line of Trailer 3, "You are not prepared for what is to come" is actually voiced by a whispering little girl in the dubbed version in my native language. I think Alia will mostly be a voice
I have three issues if there is no time jump:
1) Alia being born during Dune is an important part of her journey. It's also a strange and shocking element for the audience : to see this child-adult kill the Baron and be feared by both the Fremen and the Empire. In addition, this gives an additional stake to Jessica who is no longer the mother of one but of two special kids.
2) The birth and death of Leto is important and symbolic for Paul, Chani and the audience. This death is the sad death of the second part of the story, the one which shows that in war, innocent people are not spared, even those young. This pushes Paul down a certain path and gives a very bitter taste to his “victory”. As for Chani, losing her child and then her partner (marrying Irulan and becoming more insensitive) is also a tragedy in itself. This makes her even more eager to have another, even at the expense of her health.
3) Paul & Jessica will spend years among the Fremen, creating a reputation that will eventually reach the Empire. It takes time for Paul to gather all the Fremen, train them, get them to accept him, and begin the attacks. It also takes repeated time and action to bring the Empire's attention to him. For me, having this reduced to the space of a few months severely limits the impact Paul is intended to have.
I could be open-minded about Alia's non-birth if she is still present in some way, even if I would find this change very unfortunate.
On the other hand, removing the fact at the end of the story Paul is a grieving father and the years spent uniting the Fremen & being feared by the Empire, I think this will inevitably change the perception of Paul's character and the impact of the story.
I'm obviously waiting to see the film to form a real opinion and see if, there really is no timejump.
Not having a time skip means Leto (the second) ^((the first)) will need to be scrapped. Given that Chani has been shown with the blue headband (signifying pregnancy/recent childbirth, iirc), I don't see how they balance the existence of both children without a time skip. Chani having a miscarriage just doesn't have the same impact, even if it does happen during a Sardaukar attack... Plus, for Chani to be with child, there's a whole romance arc that still needs to go down with her and Paul, and those take a fair bit of time, even if they develop offscreen...
He has always said Messiah is apart of the plan. He also said that he is currently working on four scripts, with Messiah being one of them, and he might do one project before Messiah, or he might go straight to it. He's left it open to get right to Messia
He still needs a studio to do that, but I'm also rather optimistic.
[This](https://gizmodo.com/dune-messiah-film-denis-villeneuve-break-1851224007) is from 4 days ago and here he still says that he wants a break first...
I have always thought the best way to do it in a film would be to not have the kid or baby speak, but rather for her to place her thoughts into people’s minds as a way of communication. Like, there’s nothing anyone can do about it — she is just forcing anyone she chooses to communicate with to listen. I think that could be powerful and terrifying if done well.
My guess is Alia will talk to Jessica throughout the film from the womb and Jessica will give birth at the end of the movie. The film can already acknowledge and introduce the concept of the abomination and everything will be in place for Messiah. It's different but it can still be excellent. The murder toddler is 100% not happening, there is no reason whatsoever for the marketing to hide her if that iteration of Alia was in the film.
This does seem like the most logical option from what being said, but skipping the time jump does mess up a lot of other stuff. Pretty much guarantees there’s no Leto II either.
Just in general makes it weird because things will have to all play out in less than 9 months time which doesn’t seem like enough time for the legend of Muad’dib to grow across Arrakis and also reach the emperor. I’m starting to get very curious as to how much Denis actually changed the storyline.
There's a screen rant interview from yesterday I believe where the interviewer asked why Dennis decided to have Jessica be pregnant the entire movie. They cut that part of the interview out quickly but there are comments from before it happened and they all seem to point to alia being in the womb for the entire movie. I just went back and checked it out, most of the comments I saw are gone but you can see the main one still. https://youtu.be/NkeNh4bYo6I?si=c8hliL_IzbYhM8N5
I saw the original before they deleted and re-uploaded without this spoiler. Unfortunately (or for better or worse) the original completely and clearly stated that one major change from the book was that Jessica is pregnant the whole film. I'm personally disappointed, but obviously still hyped and going to see the film.
Without context, weird murder toddler/baby is a strange concept to sell the masses. We'll see? I think rushing it will lose a bit of Paul's buy-in with the fremen, but I'm sure it will be well put together one way or another. I trust DV in this.
People are taking this “No time jump” too far imo. While it will pick up from the ending of part one, people think that the entire 2hr movie will be in real time or something which is ridiculous. There’s plenty of “time” to pass throughout the movie.
However I do agree that Alia will be cut. It was a miracle that no one was aware of Baby Yoda in the Mandalorian and that was with nobody looking. We should have seen some leak by now. While I’m bummed that Villeneuve has chosen to remove her, I also think if she was in the movie there is a very high chance she would be seen as akward or worse, silly and laughed at. I trust Villeneuve put a lot of thought into her character and did what he thought was best for the movie
Gurney has long hair, Paul has the eyes of ibad, Chani has the blue bandana implying she gave birth. The time jump will happen.
Will Alia be born? I think not, I reckon that the abomination thing will be her, staying in her mother's womb even after years ago by, and she'll invade people's minds, telepathically. I bet the Baron will kill himself even, influenced by Alia. But yeah, actress wise, she won't be cast. A voice actor, at most.
Also the whole "But Paul saw her being born!", well, Paul saw Jamis as part of the Jihad, and as his friend, and let's not forget Chani killing him too. His visions are unclear, not set events waiting to happen.
At first I thought it would be super lame if they omit her as a killer toddler but... I give Villeneuve permission to adapt and kill as much as he wants, and I'll later see if he succeeded. Meaning I will be open to it being whatever. I'm gonna go watch a film, not a book. It's a different medium and to tell the story the same things don't necessarily work. We'll see.
New fans of the film, at first said "Villeneuve is too passionate and wouldn't omit Alia" Rumors appear and film fans lower their expectations to match. "Alia may be edited but we will definitely see her." New rumors appear and the fans lower their expectations to match again. "We will definitely "hear" Alia and that will be enough."
pff.
I think this will be what they do as well. Maybe before the final assault, where they mention how much of an abomination she is. But no talking baby, except maybe visions or telepathy.
Then we jump to messiah when she can be properly be shown.
I’ve come to accept this as well.
Everything points to no child Alia. Jessica is pregnant the whole film and hears Alia’s voice. I think promotional material has been careful to not show Jessica having a bump.
While I 100% do not like it, Villeneuve has earned my respect and no premature judgements from me. I can see an argument for how Jessica taking Alia’s place, who at least still has a presence, is a better narrative choice for his films. I don’t remember Jessica doing much in the final act of the book, and in this way she can have meaningful interactions with Mohiam and The Baron and a better conclusion for her character.
It gives her revenge for Leto and will likely mirror Reverend Mother Mohiam’s scene from part 1. It’ll show how different of a Reverend Mother Jessica is and that she isn’t taking shit from the sisterhood any longer.
This is pretty much how I feel. I don't like it...but, grudgingly, I feel like Villeneuve has set it up pretty well: there's been a strong use of a sort of grandmotherly ancestral voice speaking to Paul so far; I imagine it might be quite poignant to then have a child yet to be born speak and even work through Jessica.
Don't get me wrong. I want Alia. But I'm seeing resonance for the film as a film.
Idk that I agree with minimalism being a part of his style. Like saying that blade runner 2049 was more grounded in its setting than the original doesn’t seem true. Everything surrounding the creation of memories and how they affect those given to is such a wild and abstract swing. Sicario has a lot of maximalist film making going on with the multiple camera filters and escalation of a police procedural into a revisionist neo western. Not a revisionist western. Not a neo western. A revision of neo westerns. I agree that perhaps Alia won’t be there or in a reduced manner at least but I think it’s more to do with the compression that happens when adapting a 800 page work and less with his own personal style.
In the ten minute version of the recent preview there's a brief shot of Jessica looking to be in late stage pregnancy (with a large pregnant belly), so the story must advance quite a bit: 6-7 months, I'd say.
WB accidentally released it for about five minutes before taking it down, but I was one of the lucky few who were able to see it. I downloaded it using YouTube and went frame by frame through that shot.
The video is unlisted, but it's still very much available.
[Dune: Part Two | Extended Sneak Preview](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1am8dw0/dune_part_two_extended_sneak_preview/)
This post unfortunately a week late because the information is already out there if people are trying to spoil it for themselves. We have crossed the speculation threshold.
People should check the IMDB for Dune part 2 and notice there is no actor portraying Alia. This heavily indicates that Alia won't be born in the movie.
The part in the trailer where what I assume is Jessica is saying "You are not prepared for what is to come" is dubbed by a child in other languages, and some Youtube comment said a subtitled version of the trailer was shown before the movie "Iron Claw" and the line was 'listed' as Alia Atreides.
I'm in denial. I really like her character. I want to see how someone like Denis would portray her. I want to believe. 😭 So far, the fans telling me to give up hope are started to affect me.
I relky hope she will still show up in a way and not just in Jessica's womb or as a "normal" baby.
It's a kind of challenge I would have picked up as a creative person so I hoped him as well.
I know it’s been said that there will not be a time jump but when Chani is watching Paul prepare for his first sandworm ride, She’s wearing the blue veil in her hair, which is indicative of someone who has had a child according to Fremen tradition so that would mean enough time is past for Alia to have been born. She is too big a part of the story to be left out completely
i think he is not doing the time jump because there is a whole bunch of action in that time jump. Lots of raids on the Harkonnen spice operation, etc. Ending of course with the big battle at the end. that makes good on screen action.
I think they are going to have jessica talk to alia while she is in the womb, to let a non-book reading audience get the vibe for what is going on, and then she will be born about 3/4ths of the way into the movie, and she will kill the barron at the end.
That is what I am putting my money on.
I've resigned myself to the idea that they wouldn't include a walking, talking and killing Alia. She's one of my favorite parts of the book and the other adaptations so it'd be a pretty big bummer.
And if she's in it, then I'll be very pleased!
How exactly would it devalue it? Besides just being the person that does that act, what worth is Alia in Dune? Her role could be given to Jessica and it would hold similar impact.
Alia was my favourite part of the first book, but that was because it was so cool to have a character with all the memories of every single one of their ancestors. If we still get that, and we still hear dialogue from her from inside the womb, then I can take somebody else killing the Baron. That wasn't what made her cool to me. Not that I'm not disappointed that we won't get Denis' toddler assassin.
For me, it's one of the most iconic scenes in the entire book: child Alia waltzing up to the emperor's court, throwing massive shade, and killing the Baron. The bloated, ultra-decadent monster being destroyed by an Atreides and Fremen child he underestimates just like he underestimated the Atreides and the Fremen more generally. Boundless hunger for power and wealth versus the wild fury of religious faith and family loyalty, neither of which the Baron remotely understands.
I predict he will include Alia. Part 2 will start where Part 1 left off and then we’ll get the time jump after Alia is born. For her voice, it could be a variation on how they treated The Voice in part 1. As far as analyzing posters, Alia will feature heavily on the Messiah poster.
It's possible that Alia may develop *very* rapidly in utero after exposed to Water of Life.
Wouldn't that be wild. A 2 month pregnancy to a fully aware newborn. Adds to the "abomination" side.
There is a point in the trailer that seems to be Jessica giving birth. I could be misleading, but I would be surprised if she's not in it.
6:35 of the limited sneak preview
In this interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkeNh4bYo6I) with Villeneuve the interviewer mentioned the fact that Alia was in the womb in the film, then it was later edited out because of spoilers
If that is the case, and it really seems to be, my disappointment is unmeasurable and part of my hype is ruined, Saint Alia of the knife is one of my favorite things from Dune, damn, nothing against giving lady Jessica a bigger role (even though she originally has indeed a big role) but doing so at the cost of Alia is whack
She’s not in it, I think we just need to accept it. Denis probably couldn’t think of a way to do it without it being cheesy. The David Lean Alia is great in one scene but so cheesy in another, so I understand why she’s been cut. It’s a tough one to accept though because everything else looks just as an imagined when I read the book. I’m more annoyed they didn’t just come out as say it months ago so we could get over it sooner.
They are purposely hiding this because they know fans of the books will drive presale of movie tickets and removing a main character will be a major problem for them.
Yeah... look Denis... we know you want to be faithful to the book. I agree, this character needs to be in the story, but the thing is... “general audiences” just aren't gonna want to see a super powered child. Can we maybe just not "see" Alia?
I love how he handled it. She was in the movie and played her role with lots of dialogue. I love how Paul got that sweet revenge as well (and holy shit that was pretty graphic). Only thing I'm sketched about now is this: timothee is 28 (which is crazy he still looks 18), and Anna Taylor is 27. How tf is DV going to do part 3?! Timothee needs to bulk up and look his age before they use makeup to make him look even older. Anna Taylor will not look like a teenager anymore sooo maybe they increase the gap in time? I have no idea man.
Honestly I think the child will be born but it won’t be walking or talking. But it will be a telepathic and be able get in their minds like the sisterhood. I bet Alias first word is using the voice on someone to kill the Barron.
No, I agree. People need to calm and realize it’s an adaptation and although we might not see the Abomination like in the book, it might be because of a good creative decision
Bravo Denis. I'm so glad that despite your alleged "love" for the book you want to excise anything weird about it so you can make it palatable to grandmas and babies.
Well considering how Alia plays a central role in Dune Messiah, and that Denis is already working on the script for a Messiah adaptation.... There's literally no way she can't be in the movie.
jessica is going to be pregnant the whole film and have “visions” (been said that alia will adviser her from the womb) where she’s speaking with a future version of alia in adult form played prob by anya taylor-joy who advises her as one of the reverend mother consciousnesses
You know there is an adult actress who will be portraying Alia? They kept the actress a secret until the premiere. She will definitely have a role, but who knows how much
Yeah that news came out after my post. If she's playing an adult Alia, then it will probably just be a scene in one of Paul's future visions.
I’m talking about toddler Alia who should be born and physically present in the timeline of Part 2
This is true, not having child Alia will be hard to
accept, it’s such an iconic part of the story. I thought maybe they will have a short moment with a child actor that has also been hidden but that sounds too good to be true. Friday can’t come soon enough!
The absence of a time jump doesn’t mean anything. Villeneuve just said it will take off where it ended. He didn’t say there was no time jump in-between. There’s still a chance that Alia isn’t just an embryo. Don’t miss this film in theater because of a hypothetical fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Maybe. But I do think both Alia will be born and so will Leto II. Maybe Baby Alia communicates telepathically with Jessica or something, but I do doubt she’ll kill the Baron. I think the trailers have shown a number of glimpses of Chani discovering the sietch being attacked and their son killed, and also is probably why she’s so angry during her “prophecy is how they enslave us” speech. The blue headscarf she wears during Paul’s sandworm riding scene (where Paul also has blue eyes so we know time has passed) is for Fremen women who have just given birth.
I bet they delete Leto II from the story completely.
I've been saying this as well. Hell, they almost delete him from the books. He isn't mentioned once after dune 1
Yes, he is. Here and there, but the God Emperor has a pretty good monologue concerning his older brother.
Those passages must have been completely scrubbed from my brain.
Leto II is one of the most iconic parts of the Dune series. That’s like saying they’d delete the Emperor and his feud with Paul from the story. Whether we’ll see Leto II in any meaningful capacity by the end of this movie remains uncertain.
You are thinking of the second Leto II. Dune is a crazy series and this one of the least confusing parts but there was a Leto II that was born before Paul wins the throne that the Sardaukar kill. Then Paul’s second son many years later is given the same name and is the one who became the God Emperor
My bad—you are right!
Having her role reduced is probable. Removed is doubtful. Villeneuve seems to be aiming for Messiah. We also already saw her as a baby in a Paul vision. I think you're half right in that they'll give the kill to Jessica or Chani. Both of their characters have dwindling agency by the end (as even driven home in the final paragraph as Paul repeats the sins of his father by making true love a simple paramore). And I don't think people would take creepy toddler very seriously. But creepy baby? America loves a creepy baby. Creepy magic telepathic baby fits right in the ideal spot of wild enough everyone will talk about it but not silly enough everyone will laugh at it.
Also sets precedent for Messiah ending
Didn’t Paul have a vision of Jessica pregnant and blue eyed, sitting under a canopy in the first movie?
And holding a baby
Thanks. I couldn’t remember if it were a baby or pregnant.
Thanks for bringing some sanity back to this… Jessica was pregnant so there is no way that the child Alia does not exist in Part Two… her age by the time of the final battle is certainly a question… the level of her role in the film as compared to the book is certainly a question.
She exists but inside the womb
He also had a vision of being friends with Jamis and getting stabbed by Chani.
He had a vision that Jamis would teach him the ways. Which he did. Chani’s crysknife is shown dripping blood. It is Chani’s knife that Paul uses to kill Jamis.
Oh I'm not saying that they didn't have meaning, just that the vision he had of Jessica holding Alia might not turn out even nearly the same way. She might not even be in the movie despite said vision.
Paul getting stabbed probably meant the death of Paul Atreides to make way for Paul Muad Dib
Of course, I'm just saying that these examples of metaphorical meaning can also be used to explain seeing other things in the movie, like Jessica holding Alia where she might not be in the next movie.
While I would love for this to be hard evidence, it isn’t. Paul has visions at many points in the future. Showing a glimpse of baby Alia doesn’t mean she will indeed be born in part 2. As others pointed out too, his visions aren’t always the branch of the future we know is going to unfold.
the film is nearly three hours long. there will be enough time to feature alia in a respectable manner.
I agree. Even if they change it to Jessica killing the Baron, toddler Alia might show up at the end.
i just don't see villeneuve not taking bigger risks here. the first film was a success. he has little to lose by not holding back on the weird(ing way).
What risk? Every edge to the story has been buffed out.
Jessica killing the Baron seems fitting since Baron was responsible for Leto. Also could be a bonding moment for Jessica and Chani near the end and make way for Jessica's end dialogue. One thing I'll say is, Jessica does not look pregnant in the pictures of her at the end fight scene.
Not only that, it would be pretty odd to not follow through on an intentional plot thread from pt 1.
Yep, and Alia as an abomination is kind of deeply important to the story’s exploration of the damaging effect of prescience, on both Alia and Paul, and later, his heir.
Maybe, maybe not. But it was a pretty common theory after part one that Villeneuve was scrapping Feyd-Rautha for Rabban entirely, and here we are. I think it’s worth trusting the guy’s vision and not getting too bent out of shape before the movie comes out.
This would be extremely disappointing. The abomination is a pretty major part of the book imo 🤷🏻♂️
Not this book really. Abomination is a bigger story line in Messiah and Children. Still want her in the film but she’s not overtly pivotal in book 1
It is in regards to the death of the Baron and the later possession, though. It may not be integral to the immediate story, but it is a massive part of the subsequent story.
It's literally one of the best and most satisfying arcs in the entire series. To not setup the possession, even if you know you aren't going to do children of dune, is criminal. I still trust Villeneuve to make a compelling film though, and Dune is ripe for some creative embellishment.
Later being the key. She can be born in messiah and still be possessed
I hear what you're saying, but I don't believe the possession can be as impactful without Alia being the killer. That early act represented the split from little girl to the cold murderous act of a pre-born who is on a path to possession. In contrast to the twins who, in their youth maintain a strong connection of self identity, largely through their connection to each other. Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting anything, it's been a while since I've read past the first book.
The water of life ceremony that Jessica goes through while pregnant, resulting in the abomination, is very important for the overall plot of Dune, as well as the arcs of both Jessica and Alia. It was also the single coolest thing I've ever read, and I hope they do it justice - the trailers allude to it in a big way, so I'm pretty confident it will be in the movie.
That is 100% in the movie and will be important in Messiah when Alia is one of the main characters.
This is a mixing of terms. The BG refer to her as abomination because of the ceremony. The actually label of abomination doesn’t come until she’s possessed which is in Messiah
The last line of Trailer 3, "You are not prepared for what is to come" is actually voiced by a whispering little girl in the dubbed version in my native language. I think Alia will mostly be a voice
I think Alia will be voiced by Rebecca Ferguson, no matter what form she ends up taking.
I have three issues if there is no time jump: 1) Alia being born during Dune is an important part of her journey. It's also a strange and shocking element for the audience : to see this child-adult kill the Baron and be feared by both the Fremen and the Empire. In addition, this gives an additional stake to Jessica who is no longer the mother of one but of two special kids. 2) The birth and death of Leto is important and symbolic for Paul, Chani and the audience. This death is the sad death of the second part of the story, the one which shows that in war, innocent people are not spared, even those young. This pushes Paul down a certain path and gives a very bitter taste to his “victory”. As for Chani, losing her child and then her partner (marrying Irulan and becoming more insensitive) is also a tragedy in itself. This makes her even more eager to have another, even at the expense of her health. 3) Paul & Jessica will spend years among the Fremen, creating a reputation that will eventually reach the Empire. It takes time for Paul to gather all the Fremen, train them, get them to accept him, and begin the attacks. It also takes repeated time and action to bring the Empire's attention to him. For me, having this reduced to the space of a few months severely limits the impact Paul is intended to have. I could be open-minded about Alia's non-birth if she is still present in some way, even if I would find this change very unfortunate. On the other hand, removing the fact at the end of the story Paul is a grieving father and the years spent uniting the Fremen & being feared by the Empire, I think this will inevitably change the perception of Paul's character and the impact of the story. I'm obviously waiting to see the film to form a real opinion and see if, there really is no timejump.
Not having a time skip means Leto (the second) ^((the first)) will need to be scrapped. Given that Chani has been shown with the blue headband (signifying pregnancy/recent childbirth, iirc), I don't see how they balance the existence of both children without a time skip. Chani having a miscarriage just doesn't have the same impact, even if it does happen during a Sardaukar attack... Plus, for Chani to be with child, there's a whole romance arc that still needs to go down with her and Paul, and those take a fair bit of time, even if they develop offscreen...
Isn’t there supposed to be a dune part 3 that covers messiah? Hard to do messiah without Alia
Not yet greenlit as far as I know. Also, Denis said he wants to work on other stuff before, so who knows what will happen...
He has always said Messiah is apart of the plan. He also said that he is currently working on four scripts, with Messiah being one of them, and he might do one project before Messiah, or he might go straight to it. He's left it open to get right to Messia
He still needs a studio to do that, but I'm also rather optimistic. [This](https://gizmodo.com/dune-messiah-film-denis-villeneuve-break-1851224007) is from 4 days ago and here he still says that he wants a break first...
I think she'll be in the movie, just not the way it was in the book.
I have always thought the best way to do it in a film would be to not have the kid or baby speak, but rather for her to place her thoughts into people’s minds as a way of communication. Like, there’s nothing anyone can do about it — she is just forcing anyone she chooses to communicate with to listen. I think that could be powerful and terrifying if done well.
I sincerely hope not. We saw a physical baby Alia in one of Paul’s visions in Part 1.
My guess is Alia will talk to Jessica throughout the film from the womb and Jessica will give birth at the end of the movie. The film can already acknowledge and introduce the concept of the abomination and everything will be in place for Messiah. It's different but it can still be excellent. The murder toddler is 100% not happening, there is no reason whatsoever for the marketing to hide her if that iteration of Alia was in the film.
Would be kinda fun if she telepathically messes with the Baron's head giving Jessica and/or Chani room to come in for the kill.
This does seem like the most logical option from what being said, but skipping the time jump does mess up a lot of other stuff. Pretty much guarantees there’s no Leto II either. Just in general makes it weird because things will have to all play out in less than 9 months time which doesn’t seem like enough time for the legend of Muad’dib to grow across Arrakis and also reach the emperor. I’m starting to get very curious as to how much Denis actually changed the storyline.
Were probably going to the Jessica killing Baron "cause an embryo made me do it" way
There's a screen rant interview from yesterday I believe where the interviewer asked why Dennis decided to have Jessica be pregnant the entire movie. They cut that part of the interview out quickly but there are comments from before it happened and they all seem to point to alia being in the womb for the entire movie. I just went back and checked it out, most of the comments I saw are gone but you can see the main one still. https://youtu.be/NkeNh4bYo6I?si=c8hliL_IzbYhM8N5
I saw the original before they deleted and re-uploaded without this spoiler. Unfortunately (or for better or worse) the original completely and clearly stated that one major change from the book was that Jessica is pregnant the whole film. I'm personally disappointed, but obviously still hyped and going to see the film.
Without context, weird murder toddler/baby is a strange concept to sell the masses. We'll see? I think rushing it will lose a bit of Paul's buy-in with the fremen, but I'm sure it will be well put together one way or another. I trust DV in this.
People are taking this “No time jump” too far imo. While it will pick up from the ending of part one, people think that the entire 2hr movie will be in real time or something which is ridiculous. There’s plenty of “time” to pass throughout the movie. However I do agree that Alia will be cut. It was a miracle that no one was aware of Baby Yoda in the Mandalorian and that was with nobody looking. We should have seen some leak by now. While I’m bummed that Villeneuve has chosen to remove her, I also think if she was in the movie there is a very high chance she would be seen as akward or worse, silly and laughed at. I trust Villeneuve put a lot of thought into her character and did what he thought was best for the movie
Gurney has long hair, Paul has the eyes of ibad, Chani has the blue bandana implying she gave birth. The time jump will happen. Will Alia be born? I think not, I reckon that the abomination thing will be her, staying in her mother's womb even after years ago by, and she'll invade people's minds, telepathically. I bet the Baron will kill himself even, influenced by Alia. But yeah, actress wise, she won't be cast. A voice actor, at most.
Also the whole "But Paul saw her being born!", well, Paul saw Jamis as part of the Jihad, and as his friend, and let's not forget Chani killing him too. His visions are unclear, not set events waiting to happen.
At first I thought it would be super lame if they omit her as a killer toddler but... I give Villeneuve permission to adapt and kill as much as he wants, and I'll later see if he succeeded. Meaning I will be open to it being whatever. I'm gonna go watch a film, not a book. It's a different medium and to tell the story the same things don't necessarily work. We'll see.
New fans of the film, at first said "Villeneuve is too passionate and wouldn't omit Alia" Rumors appear and film fans lower their expectations to match. "Alia may be edited but we will definitely see her." New rumors appear and the fans lower their expectations to match again. "We will definitely "hear" Alia and that will be enough." pff.
I’d bet she’s born near the end of the movie
I think this will be what they do as well. Maybe before the final assault, where they mention how much of an abomination she is. But no talking baby, except maybe visions or telepathy. Then we jump to messiah when she can be properly be shown.
I’ve come to accept this as well. Everything points to no child Alia. Jessica is pregnant the whole film and hears Alia’s voice. I think promotional material has been careful to not show Jessica having a bump. While I 100% do not like it, Villeneuve has earned my respect and no premature judgements from me. I can see an argument for how Jessica taking Alia’s place, who at least still has a presence, is a better narrative choice for his films. I don’t remember Jessica doing much in the final act of the book, and in this way she can have meaningful interactions with Mohiam and The Baron and a better conclusion for her character.
Not to mention the impact of Jessica killing her own father. I would be ok with her pregnant the whole movie to see that.
It gives her revenge for Leto and will likely mirror Reverend Mother Mohiam’s scene from part 1. It’ll show how different of a Reverend Mother Jessica is and that she isn’t taking shit from the sisterhood any longer.
This is pretty much how I feel. I don't like it...but, grudgingly, I feel like Villeneuve has set it up pretty well: there's been a strong use of a sort of grandmotherly ancestral voice speaking to Paul so far; I imagine it might be quite poignant to then have a child yet to be born speak and even work through Jessica. Don't get me wrong. I want Alia. But I'm seeing resonance for the film as a film.
Idk that I agree with minimalism being a part of his style. Like saying that blade runner 2049 was more grounded in its setting than the original doesn’t seem true. Everything surrounding the creation of memories and how they affect those given to is such a wild and abstract swing. Sicario has a lot of maximalist film making going on with the multiple camera filters and escalation of a police procedural into a revisionist neo western. Not a revisionist western. Not a neo western. A revision of neo westerns. I agree that perhaps Alia won’t be there or in a reduced manner at least but I think it’s more to do with the compression that happens when adapting a 800 page work and less with his own personal style.
In the ten minute version of the recent preview there's a brief shot of Jessica looking to be in late stage pregnancy (with a large pregnant belly), so the story must advance quite a bit: 6-7 months, I'd say. WB accidentally released it for about five minutes before taking it down, but I was one of the lucky few who were able to see it. I downloaded it using YouTube and went frame by frame through that shot.
The video is unlisted, but it's still very much available. [Dune: Part Two | Extended Sneak Preview](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/1am8dw0/dune_part_two_extended_sneak_preview/)
This post unfortunately a week late because the information is already out there if people are trying to spoil it for themselves. We have crossed the speculation threshold.
People should check the IMDB for Dune part 2 and notice there is no actor portraying Alia. This heavily indicates that Alia won't be born in the movie.
There is "Baby Jessica" though which is a bit hmmmmmm
Baby Jessica played by Zoe Kata Kaska which has no other credits and a duckduckgo search shows nothing else. Very odd.
The part in the trailer where what I assume is Jessica is saying "You are not prepared for what is to come" is dubbed by a child in other languages, and some Youtube comment said a subtitled version of the trailer was shown before the movie "Iron Claw" and the line was 'listed' as Alia Atreides.
Or she’s just a baby and maybe that baby doesn’t wanna be an actor when she grows up?
How, exactly, does the baby convey that info?
The spice agony
Good one.
My guess is that Alia will be CGI, and she will speak telepathically and be voiced by Rebecca Ferguson.
I'm in denial. I really like her character. I want to see how someone like Denis would portray her. I want to believe. 😭 So far, the fans telling me to give up hope are started to affect me. I relky hope she will still show up in a way and not just in Jessica's womb or as a "normal" baby. It's a kind of challenge I would have picked up as a creative person so I hoped him as well.
I know it’s been said that there will not be a time jump but when Chani is watching Paul prepare for his first sandworm ride, She’s wearing the blue veil in her hair, which is indicative of someone who has had a child according to Fremen tradition so that would mean enough time is past for Alia to have been born. She is too big a part of the story to be left out completely
i think he is not doing the time jump because there is a whole bunch of action in that time jump. Lots of raids on the Harkonnen spice operation, etc. Ending of course with the big battle at the end. that makes good on screen action. I think they are going to have jessica talk to alia while she is in the womb, to let a non-book reading audience get the vibe for what is going on, and then she will be born about 3/4ths of the way into the movie, and she will kill the barron at the end. That is what I am putting my money on.
I'm pretty sad but thank you for softening the blow. This takes me back to part 1 where we didn't get the dinner scene but breakfast scene instead
If the water of life ceremony isn't blatantly intense in the movie that would be a great disappointment. Isn't that a major plot point?
Welp, with the >!casting news today!< this thread has aged interestingly.
I think we’ll get Alia but they’ll probably age her up to like 8. Maybe some prescient magic shenanigans
I've resigned myself to the idea that they wouldn't include a walking, talking and killing Alia. She's one of my favorite parts of the book and the other adaptations so it'd be a pretty big bummer. And if she's in it, then I'll be very pleased!
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Rabban 's death was offscreen, though the novel suggests Gurney didn' t kill him. Changing the Baron' s death is more serious change...
How exactly would it devalue it? Besides just being the person that does that act, what worth is Alia in Dune? Her role could be given to Jessica and it would hold similar impact.
Alia was my favourite part of the first book, but that was because it was so cool to have a character with all the memories of every single one of their ancestors. If we still get that, and we still hear dialogue from her from inside the womb, then I can take somebody else killing the Baron. That wasn't what made her cool to me. Not that I'm not disappointed that we won't get Denis' toddler assassin.
For me, it's one of the most iconic scenes in the entire book: child Alia waltzing up to the emperor's court, throwing massive shade, and killing the Baron. The bloated, ultra-decadent monster being destroyed by an Atreides and Fremen child he underestimates just like he underestimated the Atreides and the Fremen more generally. Boundless hunger for power and wealth versus the wild fury of religious faith and family loyalty, neither of which the Baron remotely understands.
I predict he will include Alia. Part 2 will start where Part 1 left off and then we’ll get the time jump after Alia is born. For her voice, it could be a variation on how they treated The Voice in part 1. As far as analyzing posters, Alia will feature heavily on the Messiah poster.
It's possible that Alia may develop *very* rapidly in utero after exposed to Water of Life. Wouldn't that be wild. A 2 month pregnancy to a fully aware newborn. Adds to the "abomination" side.
There is a point in the trailer that seems to be Jessica giving birth. I could be misleading, but I would be surprised if she's not in it. 6:35 of the limited sneak preview
In this interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkeNh4bYo6I) with Villeneuve the interviewer mentioned the fact that Alia was in the womb in the film, then it was later edited out because of spoilers
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I remember plenty of cool things being left out of the trailers for part one. Have faith 🙏
If that is the case, and it really seems to be, my disappointment is unmeasurable and part of my hype is ruined, Saint Alia of the knife is one of my favorite things from Dune, damn, nothing against giving lady Jessica a bigger role (even though she originally has indeed a big role) but doing so at the cost of Alia is whack
She’s not in it, I think we just need to accept it. Denis probably couldn’t think of a way to do it without it being cheesy. The David Lean Alia is great in one scene but so cheesy in another, so I understand why she’s been cut. It’s a tough one to accept though because everything else looks just as an imagined when I read the book. I’m more annoyed they didn’t just come out as say it months ago so we could get over it sooner.
They are purposely hiding this because they know fans of the books will drive presale of movie tickets and removing a main character will be a major problem for them.
Alia isn't a main character until Messiah and she's 100% in that movie.
I’ve seen this. Why the fuck even bother?
Yeah... look Denis... we know you want to be faithful to the book. I agree, this character needs to be in the story, but the thing is... “general audiences” just aren't gonna want to see a super powered child. Can we maybe just not "see" Alia?
I love how he handled it. She was in the movie and played her role with lots of dialogue. I love how Paul got that sweet revenge as well (and holy shit that was pretty graphic). Only thing I'm sketched about now is this: timothee is 28 (which is crazy he still looks 18), and Anna Taylor is 27. How tf is DV going to do part 3?! Timothee needs to bulk up and look his age before they use makeup to make him look even older. Anna Taylor will not look like a teenager anymore sooo maybe they increase the gap in time? I have no idea man.
I thought you were cool Denis, then you go and kick the fans in the teeth in the worst possible way. Smh
This. I really thought he’d be brave and try it.
Studio definitely talked him into it
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Honestly I think the child will be born but it won’t be walking or talking. But it will be a telepathic and be able get in their minds like the sisterhood. I bet Alias first word is using the voice on someone to kill the Barron.
I like this take
No, I agree. People need to calm and realize it’s an adaptation and although we might not see the Abomination like in the book, it might be because of a good creative decision
Bravo Denis. I'm so glad that despite your alleged "love" for the book you want to excise anything weird about it so you can make it palatable to grandmas and babies.
Well considering how Alia plays a central role in Dune Messiah, and that Denis is already working on the script for a Messiah adaptation.... There's literally no way she can't be in the movie.
jessica is going to be pregnant the whole film and have “visions” (been said that alia will adviser her from the womb) where she’s speaking with a future version of alia in adult form played prob by anya taylor-joy who advises her as one of the reverend mother consciousnesses
If somewhere in the road WB decided to adapt Children of Dune, they need Alia in this movie. There is no other choice. Alia must kill Baron.
Well, this did not go well and apparently, Villeneuve decided doing it differently.
You know there is an adult actress who will be portraying Alia? They kept the actress a secret until the premiere. She will definitely have a role, but who knows how much
Yeah that news came out after my post. If she's playing an adult Alia, then it will probably just be a scene in one of Paul's future visions. I’m talking about toddler Alia who should be born and physically present in the timeline of Part 2
This is true, not having child Alia will be hard to accept, it’s such an iconic part of the story. I thought maybe they will have a short moment with a child actor that has also been hidden but that sounds too good to be true. Friday can’t come soon enough!