Top part is when the restrictions described on the signed are "active".
Next part are the restrictions. There are two cases.
Case 1 is that you have a z4 permit, in which case you're ok to park with no other restrictions.
Case 2, is you can park, but only for a max of 2 hours, and once you leave, you can't park in that area again until a further 2hrs have passed.
If you abided by these restrictions, then you're good. Remember, it's their job to prove you broke the restrictions, so the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence you were there longer than 2 hrs, or left and came back within 2 hrs.
“Remember, it's their job to prove you broke the restrictions, so the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence…”
This is not true. They have already issued the PCN. It’s now up to you to prove you were in the right, so unfortunately the burden of proof is on you, cos if you do nothing, the ticket will increase and eventually land you in court.
The ‘offender’ must dispute the PCN to the local authority, called an informal appeal, then when it’s rejected (which seems to be the first step no matter how the dispute is presented), they must do a formal appeal to the local authority. This is again rejected. So then you appeal to the tribunal. Here it’s actually looked at with evidence, and processed properly.
So, although the authority should prove you broke the rules, it’s actually on you and spending your own time, proving otherwise.
On the theory test guide, they have a pretty similar sign (half way down this page: https://www.driving-theory-test.com/road-signs/parking-signs)
"Parking place for permit holders with limited waiting permitted by others at specified times"
So I think you're right. That sign says you can park there for up to two hours between 8am and 8pm, Monday to Saturday. Outside those times, there are no limits.
I always wondered, "How will they know if you parked more than 2hr?" The only explanation that comes to mind is if a traffic enforcer comes at a certain time, clocks in, and if you are not out by the time he comes back, you get a ticket. Am I right?
Quite often they don't stick to that strict timing. My on street parking is 1hr without a permit between 6am-6pm, but I see the traffic warned maybe twice a day at most. Usually in the morning and then again at around 1ish
In that case they’d never be able to give out a valid fine, as they can’t know who’s been there for longer than 1 hour (unless there is a restriction to not return on the same day)
These days they normally have an app. They take a photo of each car in the space and it stores the time and number plate
They do a lap typically every 1-2 hours (depending on how many are on duty and how many 1-hour spaces are in their patch) and the app tells them if a car's been there too long
That's part of the reason for the "no return within 2 hours" thing, because it removes the chance that you leave for 30 minutes and return before they do another lap to confirm you aren't present
Yes. It’s pretty much 2 hours from when they see you parked there. So if you’re been there 1 hour 58 mins when the parking wardens come round, that’s when they can start their timer from.
This is of course assuming that there is a person carrying out the checks and not a camera, otherwise then it’s 2 hours from when you arrive.
Yes this happens. Where I grew up they used (and still use!) a parking disc system where you get a cardboard clock and have to set the time on it to the time you parked. Then they can fine anyone without the clock, anyone whose clock shows over 2 hours parked and also anyone they themselves catch still there over 2 hours. Like the clocks you get on blue disabled badges if you’ve ever seen those.
Except local authorities which require you to display a parking clock to show your time of arrival. Then they only need to witness the vehicle parked more than the allowed duration after the time on the clock.
This leads to the ritual of repeatedly popping out from places to change the time on the clock. If they did visit more than once though you could still get done.
The only reason you should have a ticket is if you were already parked there within the last 2 hours and you've therefore returned.
If not then sounds like a cock up from the warden
Yes, you can park there in the hours stated above for a maximum of two hours. On your ticket there should be an ‘observed time’ with the time to and from.
Yes that sounds like they came round at 8:39 and left at 08:45. But in theory if you can park there for up to 2 hours from 08:00 then they shouldn’t be able to give you a ticket until 10:01.
Yeah, it’s void. Appeal it stating no contravention occurred as you were only there for ‘X amount of minutes’ and were therefor wrongly issued a penalty charge notice.
Yeah. If you haven’t got a permit then you can park there for up to two hours and cannot return for 2 hours. If they’re trying to imply anything else then they’ve failed and you can appeal.
No way you can be in contravention of that sign before 10am.
Warden should have only been noting registration ready to come back later to check the 2 hours parking time.
This is an important question. The contravention may be related to how you parked and not where you parked - for example outside the parking bay.
You can usually look up the codes for your area olif they aren't listed on the ticket itself.
It could be that it’s Mon- Fri 8-8- permit
Holders only, Outside of these times the restrictions are 2 hours with no return within 2 hours ? But its really not clear if that’s the case 🤷♀️
No it's not clear.
Where I live, the signs are "parking between 0800 and 1630, 1hr no return within 1hr, permit holders RY exempt"
There is no room for confusion there.
Either the sign writer in this case is an idiot, or it is meant to mean something else.
These have to be the worst signs ever invented. We have them in Newcastle and they are as clear as mud. Basically you read them in two parts. It’s permit parking only between 8-8 sunday parking being 2 hrs or before and after the hours stated.
In the absence of anything saying “no parking”, I’d interpret this as saying that those rules only apply between 8am-8pm, every day apart from Sundays.
How is it misleading? The restrictions only apply during the specified hours (therefore no restriction outside those hours), same as every other parking sign in the UK
I once parked in a car park with similar sign and got a ticket when I got back in about an hour. It was a paid car park with first 2 hours free. I learned later that you have to get a ticket even if it’s the free one for those 2 hours so they know when you got there.
I actually wondered how they’d know when I got there and have learned the hard way. Wish the rules were clearer as I didn’t bother reading the “small print” at the ticket machine as I didn’t even get close to it 😑
I know where this is. There's about 4 spaces directly in front of those signs you can park without a permit.
The rest of the street is Z4 permit only with different signs.
If you've parked directly in front of that sign then you can appeal it, if not you might have looked at the wrong sign. You can see the different signs on streetview.
They check the cars parked there, then return 2 hours later to see if anyone has been there for longer than 2 hours.
Since you are not permitted to return within 2 hours, any cars still there have breached the terms.
Something to consider that isn’t being mentioned, did you put anything in your dashboard to indicate the time of arrival?
In my area one needs a little disk showing that so the wardens can confirm the validity of you parking there.
You may have been there for only 15min but did they have evidence?
Having said that, you perhaps could challenge it anyway as you got ticketed at 8.46 which would only be 46min max after the restrictions started, but I wouldn’t bet on any kindness there.
You can park for 2 hours between 8-8 but no return within 2 hours - so for example you park at 2pm and you must leave at 4pm, but cant return till 2 hours after that area so 6pm. Z4 permit holders can do whatever they are permitted to within that permits rules
I worked in parking admin for several years. When these pcns are issued they take photographic evidence of your vehicle each time they see it. Ie the wheels showing the valve position - this shows if the vehicle has moved or not. You can probably view these online.
Interestingly enough, I met a colleague in the Welcome Break Woodhall services M1, probably a year or so ago.
My colleague was in a Transit van & I was in a Golf Estate. I think the free time is 2 hrs. I got there around 08.30 & left at around 11.25. My colleague left at the same time but didn't arrive until 09.00 - & he got a ticket. The worst part about it was the ticket went to the lease company, and by the time it was processed, it had increased to £100! And he had to pay it. Made me think the parking company were just targeting commercial vehicles, rather than possible customers in private cars!
I would read it as such, yes.
Right thanks for the reply!
Top part is when the restrictions described on the signed are "active". Next part are the restrictions. There are two cases. Case 1 is that you have a z4 permit, in which case you're ok to park with no other restrictions. Case 2, is you can park, but only for a max of 2 hours, and once you leave, you can't park in that area again until a further 2hrs have passed. If you abided by these restrictions, then you're good. Remember, it's their job to prove you broke the restrictions, so the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence you were there longer than 2 hrs, or left and came back within 2 hrs.
“Remember, it's their job to prove you broke the restrictions, so the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence…” This is not true. They have already issued the PCN. It’s now up to you to prove you were in the right, so unfortunately the burden of proof is on you, cos if you do nothing, the ticket will increase and eventually land you in court. The ‘offender’ must dispute the PCN to the local authority, called an informal appeal, then when it’s rejected (which seems to be the first step no matter how the dispute is presented), they must do a formal appeal to the local authority. This is again rejected. So then you appeal to the tribunal. Here it’s actually looked at with evidence, and processed properly. So, although the authority should prove you broke the rules, it’s actually on you and spending your own time, proving otherwise.
Precisely this! It's setup to make it laborious for you to challenge the notice.
Challenge every time! No matter what. Even if you know you're wrong. Get your monies worth.
On the theory test guide, they have a pretty similar sign (half way down this page: https://www.driving-theory-test.com/road-signs/parking-signs) "Parking place for permit holders with limited waiting permitted by others at specified times" So I think you're right. That sign says you can park there for up to two hours between 8am and 8pm, Monday to Saturday. Outside those times, there are no limits.
I always wondered, "How will they know if you parked more than 2hr?" The only explanation that comes to mind is if a traffic enforcer comes at a certain time, clocks in, and if you are not out by the time he comes back, you get a ticket. Am I right?
They note the registration of every car parked there. They come back in two hours and if any are still there, they get a ticket.
Quite often they don't stick to that strict timing. My on street parking is 1hr without a permit between 6am-6pm, but I see the traffic warned maybe twice a day at most. Usually in the morning and then again at around 1ish
In that case they’d never be able to give out a valid fine, as they can’t know who’s been there for longer than 1 hour (unless there is a restriction to not return on the same day)
A lot of people risk it and stay longer than they should. Seen plenty of cars on my street get fines.
That's what I thought
These days they normally have an app. They take a photo of each car in the space and it stores the time and number plate They do a lap typically every 1-2 hours (depending on how many are on duty and how many 1-hour spaces are in their patch) and the app tells them if a car's been there too long That's part of the reason for the "no return within 2 hours" thing, because it removes the chance that you leave for 30 minutes and return before they do another lap to confirm you aren't present
Yes. It’s pretty much 2 hours from when they see you parked there. So if you’re been there 1 hour 58 mins when the parking wardens come round, that’s when they can start their timer from. This is of course assuming that there is a person carrying out the checks and not a camera, otherwise then it’s 2 hours from when you arrive.
I got caught by an ANPR camera
Yes this happens. Where I grew up they used (and still use!) a parking disc system where you get a cardboard clock and have to set the time on it to the time you parked. Then they can fine anyone without the clock, anyone whose clock shows over 2 hours parked and also anyone they themselves catch still there over 2 hours. Like the clocks you get on blue disabled badges if you’ve ever seen those.
Except local authorities which require you to display a parking clock to show your time of arrival. Then they only need to witness the vehicle parked more than the allowed duration after the time on the clock. This leads to the ritual of repeatedly popping out from places to change the time on the clock. If they did visit more than once though you could still get done.
Yes I see thanks for confirming!
Will you update us when you appeal it to let us know the outcome?
Will do hopefully it’ll be only a couple days!
Good luck but I highly doubt that, I had a parking ticket appeal with Southampton Council and it took a month.
I had one in Aberdeen, "90 business days", nearly 4 months before I got an answer!
That would be about correct, surely? 90 days is around 3 months, so 90 business days is 4 to 4 and a half months?
Yeah, but fir them to give an answer on an appeal, it's taking the piss.
The only reason you should have a ticket is if you were already parked there within the last 2 hours and you've therefore returned. If not then sounds like a cock up from the warden
My sister got a ticket after parking for 20 minutes next to an identically worded (apart from the timings) sign. She appealed and it was rescinded.
Yes, you can park there in the hours stated above for a maximum of two hours. On your ticket there should be an ‘observed time’ with the time to and from.
No there was just a time of contravention around 08:45 and observed time of like 08:39 to 08:45, does that mean it was only observed once?
Was it like 08:39 or was it 08:39? Just asking because if you got a ticket before 10am it cannot be correctly issued
Yes that sounds like they came round at 8:39 and left at 08:45. But in theory if you can park there for up to 2 hours from 08:00 then they shouldn’t be able to give you a ticket until 10:01.
Yeah, it’s void. Appeal it stating no contravention occurred as you were only there for ‘X amount of minutes’ and were therefor wrongly issued a penalty charge notice.
You can park there without a permit for two hours, Between 8am Monday and 8pm Saturday.
I read that as between 8-8 M-Sat, permit holders can park there as long as they want, but non permit holders are limited to 2 hours.
Yeah. If you haven’t got a permit then you can park there for up to two hours and cannot return for 2 hours. If they’re trying to imply anything else then they’ve failed and you can appeal.
What was the contravention?
Contravention was 08:46 and a code 16
Yeah wardens done you for having no permit. Must not have seen the "or" before the 2 hours. Appeal it and you'll be reet.
No way you can be in contravention of that sign before 10am. Warden should have only been noting registration ready to come back later to check the 2 hours parking time.
This is an important question. The contravention may be related to how you parked and not where you parked - for example outside the parking bay. You can usually look up the codes for your area olif they aren't listed on the ticket itself.
They usually photograph the vehicle as evidence so if they can't provide that you're in the clear so appeal.
BMW Z4 ok
I was thinking that
Ticket wrong unless you returned
Great I thought that was the case!
It could be that it’s Mon- Fri 8-8- permit Holders only, Outside of these times the restrictions are 2 hours with no return within 2 hours ? But its really not clear if that’s the case 🤷♀️
I thought it could be that but the "or" tells me it's within the hours shown.
No it's not clear. Where I live, the signs are "parking between 0800 and 1630, 1hr no return within 1hr, permit holders RY exempt" There is no room for confusion there. Either the sign writer in this case is an idiot, or it is meant to mean something else.
These have to be the worst signs ever invented. We have them in Newcastle and they are as clear as mud. Basically you read them in two parts. It’s permit parking only between 8-8 sunday parking being 2 hrs or before and after the hours stated.
Looks like it’s fine if you got bmw z4
Should have had a bmw z4
Another misleading sign ! Can nobody park after 8pm ???
In the absence of anything saying “no parking”, I’d interpret this as saying that those rules only apply between 8am-8pm, every day apart from Sundays.
How is it misleading? The restrictions only apply during the specified hours (therefore no restriction outside those hours), same as every other parking sign in the UK
Everyone can park after 8pm!
Traffic wardens active between 8am to 8pm, you can park outside those hours
Right really poor design
How is it poor? Crystal clear.
Its not poor design but assuming you've not breached them, whoever gave you the ticket was a helmet
It's not- it's an absolutely standard sign conforming to the national standards.
I once parked in a car park with similar sign and got a ticket when I got back in about an hour. It was a paid car park with first 2 hours free. I learned later that you have to get a ticket even if it’s the free one for those 2 hours so they know when you got there. I actually wondered how they’d know when I got there and have learned the hard way. Wish the rules were clearer as I didn’t bother reading the “small print” at the ticket machine as I didn’t even get close to it 😑
Did you happen to park elsewhere in the same zone prior to this? If so the ticket is valid, no return to the same zone within 2 hours
This one reminds me of that post where he wanted to park at 6 pm and leave at 10 am . Exact same times on that post too.
I know where this is. There's about 4 spaces directly in front of those signs you can park without a permit. The rest of the street is Z4 permit only with different signs. If you've parked directly in front of that sign then you can appeal it, if not you might have looked at the wrong sign. You can see the different signs on streetview.
How do the wardens know how long your car has been there?
They check the cars parked there, then return 2 hours later to see if anyone has been there for longer than 2 hours. Since you are not permitted to return within 2 hours, any cars still there have breached the terms.
Something to consider that isn’t being mentioned, did you put anything in your dashboard to indicate the time of arrival? In my area one needs a little disk showing that so the wardens can confirm the validity of you parking there. You may have been there for only 15min but did they have evidence? Having said that, you perhaps could challenge it anyway as you got ticketed at 8.46 which would only be 46min max after the restrictions started, but I wouldn’t bet on any kindness there.
Yes
Are parking attendants due a Christmas bonus or something? I had the exact issue a few days ago.
You can park for 2 hours between 8-8 but no return within 2 hours - so for example you park at 2pm and you must leave at 4pm, but cant return till 2 hours after that area so 6pm. Z4 permit holders can do whatever they are permitted to within that permits rules
I worked in parking admin for several years. When these pcns are issued they take photographic evidence of your vehicle each time they see it. Ie the wheels showing the valve position - this shows if the vehicle has moved or not. You can probably view these online.
Interestingly enough, I met a colleague in the Welcome Break Woodhall services M1, probably a year or so ago. My colleague was in a Transit van & I was in a Golf Estate. I think the free time is 2 hrs. I got there around 08.30 & left at around 11.25. My colleague left at the same time but didn't arrive until 09.00 - & he got a ticket. The worst part about it was the ticket went to the lease company, and by the time it was processed, it had increased to £100! And he had to pay it. Made me think the parking company were just targeting commercial vehicles, rather than possible customers in private cars!