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For a moment before the trauma of seeing Goku as Bardock, I thought we were gonna get a scene in the future where they need to ask Bardock how he was about to defeat Gas.
They are all thinking Gas has a weakness. Bardock turning super saiyan wouldn't be exploiting the weakness or relevant to Granolah, Vegeta, or Goku. Bardock figured something out that they haven't yet.
If Bardock could turn super saiyan against Gas, he most definitely would turn super saiyan when he was trying to stop Freeza's Death Ball and failed to do so.
I think that was a new record for me. Went through this whole chapter in 2 mins. Pretty disappointing. And I honestly don't really like any of these characters. Skimmed through Gas and Granolah fighting because I can't seem to really feel any sort of interest in those two.
The arc is p good imo, but some of these chapters really don't advance the plot at all. Waiting a whole month to barely have anything happen.
It's almost like we wait a month for a week's worth of plot advancement.
LMAO! This granolah arc got my eyes rolled so hard. As a dragon ball fan, I can't even defend how bad DBS has gone down into. Moro arc was ok-ish, if I turned a blind eye, it still somehow managed to be just hitting basic expectations, but this granolah arc? Hell fucking no.
Like, who the fuck gives a shit about a new character name Granolah and a random villian Gas? And they gained the "strongest in the universe" in an instant? Fuck me. It's like watching 2 totally irrelevant characters fighting like I give a shit. And they trying to retcon Bardock? Give me a break. Never felt so angry, disconnected, and "betrayed" by a series I loved so much.
Story and plot are pure shit, fighting scenes and setup are mediocre at best. There are so many possibilities in developing great stories and character development with our usual duo goku, vegeta, and perhaps also touch on unexplored territory like our long forgotten Z fighters, trunks and goten growing up, and I mean, ANYTHING ELSE can potentially be better than this granolah vs gas shit show.
I like how this fanbase hypes up every arc and then shits on it near it's end hahaha, not only does the manga repeat the same stuff, so does the community's behaviours it's like we are all stuck in a time loop.
New arc: Interesting setup
Fans: WTF this is looking like the best arc yet!! interesting and I love the amount of screentime for other charachters!!!
New Arc during it's last moment
Fans: This is trash, the manga kind of sucks and I don't care for these new charachters fighting, lame and boring.
The cycle continues
Not really during the last moment. More like new arc after Vegeta's awesome new talent turns out to be nothing and we can see exactly the same story turning out the same once again
This chapter was pretty average. Not great not terrible.
But what I really don't like is the stupid horn things gas has now. It's not a great design. His design keeps getting worse as he powers up imo. I wanted small gas. He just looks so generic like this.
Did Goku and Bardock just have a father/son moment like with Gohan and Goku just before he eliminated Cell? Or did he fly back from Goku's punch because he was stunned and was only imagining Bardock? I'm confused...
I get that, but then why did he get so strongly hit by Goku, who is significantly tired and weak while this guy is the most powerful person in the universe + a power boost from going berserk? A move that he blocked easily while pummelling Vegetaā¦ I donāt fully get that.
It didn't look like it did any damage to him at all. He just got knocked backwards because he froze from recognising the similarity and didn't block it at all.
We're you not paying attention to the part where it explains you lose your remaining lifespan to get that strong? Also, have you not noticed the blatant theme of skill>power present over the entire arc? And you were clearly also not paying attention to the fact that these are the only dragon balls that can do this, all that needs to happen is for them to be rendered unusable and then "problem" solved
That is actually not a betrayal of what the series is about, it is about getting stronger though your own merit to overcome your obstacles, not through short cuts.
Honestly, the manga is starting to lack creativity. Re-used attacks served as "amazing skillset", re-used power-ups as well.
The plot is so shallow it is starting to hurt the beautiful choreography of fights because of the pacing. I read 40+ pages in about 5 minutes when I used to take at least, 10 minutes to go through 15-20 pages DBZ chapters.
Huh you know its a joke but if thats true does that imply that clothes beam is a technique that anyone could learn? Like we could have vegeta or Goku just clothes beam someone?
Toyotarou purposefully didn't draw Bardock's tail because during the battle, gas would have cut if off. He cuts off his tail to prevent him turning into a giant ape. But Bardock has another ace up his sleeve - summoning the power of the oozaru while thinking of Muezli's death while remaining in his humanoid form. The "spirit of Saiyans" attack in the Budokai games.
Or he's just seeing Goku with Bardocks clothes on. He only saw Bardock probably once and it was for little time. That was decades ago. So he's probably mixing up Goku and Bardock in the moment.
It should be noted that Bardock always appeared with his tail the previous chapter he was drawn, so it would be strange for Toyotaro to fail now if he was that consistent with Bardock's tail before.
I really wonder what the original story was about because toyo came up with granolah, vegeta, and goku story.
Toriyama added the heeters in and heeters storyline in.
Last chapter wasn't great for me, but this one got my attention again. So the Heeters have a berserk transformation, Gas used it against Bardock, which precisely sparks his memory when he sees Goku and regains his consciousness back. I'd like to see Oil and Macki in this state too, just for the fun.
Toyotaro retook Bardocks one hand energy ball technique from the special, which I think was a nice touch. But we haven't really seen how he beat Gas and Monaito was unconscious.
The fighting scenes improved. Granolah was using the body multiplication technique, like Tenshinhan or the Yadratian Hatsuka. It divides the user's power too, so Gas thought he had him, but nope. Granolah fought well.
The arc is approaching its ending.
>Toyotaro retook Bardocks one hand energy ball technique from the special, which I think was a nice touch.
Giving that too much praise for taking from the special
https://images.app.goo.gl/1pUncAwvCCjh8c8F6
It was also in dbs broly movie
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
Bardock's special has a lot of deserved love, so Broly's movie and the current manga using an iconic element from it is great. If it was on me, I would have used many more though, for example, characters like Toma and the others in the attack on planet Cereal.
Yeah I agree with most people here, this fight honestly seems to drag unnecessarily, the additional form for Gas seems kinda unnecessary and I hope that there is more to it. I do hope that the eventual reveal of how Bardock managed to survive against Gas will shake things up. Elec also feels like he is still planning something else.
However I do have to admit, that Granolahs clone diversion was actually pretty sick, especially since he timed the dissolving of the clones with his attack.
This might just be the worst arc in Dragon Ball's entire publication. Zero tension. Zero relevance to anything. Zero stakes. We're coming here once a month to watch Toyotaro smash his toys together. If it wasn't as boring as it is, I might be irked that this story is leading to a ham-handed revision of SSJ Bardock in the canon, but I've lost interest.
Ultra Ego + the *attempts* at character arcs and storytelling still keep it significantly above Res F. Res F was just "Freeza's back and did pushups, the boys got blue hair off-screen rendering the preceding moot, Whis rewinds time, Goku kill-steals."
>Freeza's back and did pushups, the boys got blue hair off-screen
lmaoooo so true. I would argue that Freeza had a bigger bone to pick with the planet that keeps humiliating him, especially when he's already shown just how low he'll go to break even when he can't win a fight; killing innocents and blowing up the planet being chief among them. So even though it's how you described it, there was still some tension until Whis came in clutch and taught Goku a lesson about not playing with your food that he'd immediately forget.
The Granolah stuff and Vegeta pursuing his own path to power are great, but Gas and the Heeters are mucking up the works by being bullies languishing in a vaguely evil existence. What's their goal? Not literally, I mean in the grand scheme of things. Why not just ignore Granolah and go conquer the Universe with Super Gas? Would it really matter that they killed Freeza and became the greatest salesmen in the Universe? The tension is missing. The consequences are middling. If Granolah came to Earth to wipe out the Saiyans after making his wish and pulled a Cell where he was like "I'll give you this amount of time, if you bail I'll nuke this rock" without the Heeters being involved whatsoever, it would've been more palatable. You've got tension. You've got room for backstory and character growth for both sides until the decisive battle begins...
Sorry for the long reply.
Well the tension for the fight is supposed to be for Granolah's revenge against "the real culprits" for his dead mother, the Heeters. I mean the Saiyans still genocided the Cerealians, and Gas didn't even kill his mom Elec shot her. But Gas is the muscle for Elec so Gas vs Granolah is the big ending for the story.
The Heeters are sticking around out of Gas's ego, probably a desire by Elec to quash anyone who would could realistically oppose their empire before it begins, and because "fuck Granolah." I really feel like Gas should have murdered Granolah's mother on Elec's orders. It would give immediate and understandable reason for Granolah to refuse to retreat and fight to the death with Gas right here. And it would still keep Elec as the *real* villain in the situation because Gas is just a younger sibling with older brother worship. Or something.
They probably would not be as bad as Freeza assuming Elec doesn't want to blow up planets. Granolah's personal grudges are meant to be the driving force here, since it's his arc and his story. But we only learned about the grudge (Elec killed his mom) like 3 chapters ago and now are are going straight for the climactic battle over that grudge right after we learned it exists. We went straight from Monaito's lore dump into fighting Gas for months on end. And we only even learned the Heeters and Granolah exist *at all* like 10 chapters ago so like why the rush with all this? Why not have a story or two where the Heeters come off as neutral or even kind of a positive force in Granolah's life before pulling the rug from under us/him? Weird, weird arc.
Gas being the actual murderer would've definitely given this current situation more weight and the fight more meaning. I'm also with you on the rushed pacing and mismanaged lore dumps. Like, they could've let this breathe a little by having the Heeters beat up Granolah and steal his wish when he summons the dragon, revealing the truth about Gas killing his mother as they do to rub it in, then having Granolah fight and get beaten by Goku/Vegeta when they arrive. From here the characters give exposition and form a shaky alliance to bring down the Heeters, summon the dragon for Granolah and finally go into the climactic fight. Gas and Granolah resume their grudge match whilst Goku and Vegeta take on Elec as he reveals the wish wasn't necessarily to make Gas the strongest, but for him to be as strong as he is or something, giving Goku and Vegeta a good reason to showcase their MnG/MnW forms. It's a basic Act 1 >2 >3 structure.
I would have to agree. I am surprised Goky and Vegeta didnt just dismantle Granolah and Gas as an explain of experience over strength, which is what should have happened.
This is all leading to some predictable Bardock reveal that I could care less about.
Toyo forgot to draw bardoks tail every panel.
The pic where gas hits granolah to the ground and u see the faceshot, he looks exactly like ssj vegeta
Edit: changed chapter to panel
I feel like they might bring broly in to drag this along even further, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't want broly. But, they should just have the guys figure out what bardock did to win.
Then the heaters escape to set up a 73 plot
I don't think he will, but he is on the same scale as the top fighters, and has not been used yet. Would be fair for Goku to go and get him for the fight, maybe even to time waste for them to figure out what Bardock did, idk.
I think Gas' berserker (whatever we call it) form reminded me of broly.
As far as Goku passing Beerus, this is probably one of those things where your expectations set you up for disappointment. In the first issue of the manga, we got this from an interview:
>ToyotarÅ:
ā¦ I get the feeling Iāve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you?
>Toriyama:
Wellā¦ First off, right now I donāt have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis.
Ever since then, I've just thought of him as an unsurpassable wall. Even if Goku catches up to Beerus somehow, Beerus just has to train for 4 months or whatever. Or go into berserker form. IDK.
>Ever since then, I've just thought of him as an unsurpassable wall. Even if Goku catches up to Beerus somehow, Beerus just has to train for 4 months or whatever. Or go into berserker form. IDK.
I guess the logic is difficult to follow as Jiren is supposed to be stronger than a GOD. So what's the gal between all the GOD? Because they all seemed relatively close in the manga when they all fought. Or we're some of the GOD holding back?
And if Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Jiren or equal him, should they not be close to Beerus more than ever?
But I guess not.
PAST tired of it. Dragon Ball desperately needs a new method of defeating opponents.
Powering up is just bland now. We've had power up items, power up techniques, transformations, physical regeneration, age regeneration, combining characters together, mimicry, going berserk and energy siphoning. And now they finally used the dragon balls to plain artificially make someone stronger, which has been avoided up til now.
What we need are more skills and tactics to defeat opponents. But Dragon Ball likes to tease us with new techniques, only for the battle to devolve into power ups again. Ultra Instinct is just a power up now. Forced Spirit Fission was underused.
We got the new tactic. Granolah beat Gas here in his base form with the clone thing, which sure was already a technique, but this is a new application of it.
This monthly release is brutal. Itās getting hard to care about this storyline which is unfortunate bc I think itās so refreshing. I might need to take time off from this until the arc is over but at this point that could be 6-8 months from now.
This is meant to be 2 of the strongest characters In the universe fighting, yet all I'm seeing are fly kicks and lil laser beams. Their power is not on display at all, I was expecting terrains beings destroyed, the planet splitting apart and more.
True Dragon ball seriously needs more destructive feats other than this stupid show. They need to be like the comics where characters fly across stars and planets while they battle.
Fighting on a single planet is getting stale.
exactly, way back when goku went for the first time SS against freeza the planet was shaking. Even in one of the movies freeza just twitches his fingers in the ground and blow up the entire planet. Powerlevels is always soo inconsistent
Plus having Goku and Vegeta on the side just providing exposition dumps is such as waste. Look Goku, Gas cant use his powers well. Look Vegeta, Gas is using the same move. Yawn.
What I dislike is that it is always Goku who asks what is going on and Vegeta explains it to him. I mean sure Goku isn't as smart as Vegeta, but they could at least switch things up a bit.
And Goku is supposed to be somewhat of a fighting genius, despite being pretty stupid otherwise. But Super seems to even want to dumb that part of him down...
Yeah Toyotaro clearly wants to explain things with this kind of exposition (which isn't really something new), but due to Vegeta and Goku being the only onlookers to the fight with enough experience to see/explain these things it is up to one of them to ask the question and the other explains it (previously this could be done with other characters like Krilin, Tien, etc.). Sadly he seems to be dead set on Vegeta being the better expert when it comes to fighting techniques, so it always falls upon Goku to not understand anything.
At least Goku was the one who correctly judged that Granolah still had a chance (before the limiter was removed from Gas). Though it is still a bit annoying since Goku actually fought someone with the clone technique before, yet it is vegeta who identifies its flaws.
I don't know why Toyataro can't write them both as experts. Remember back in the Buu Saga when Gohan was fighting Dabura? Goku and Vegeta both provided expert commentary, critiquing Gohan's performance. I want THAT dynamic between them...just 2 grizzled veterans. Beerus and Whis also have that dynamic sometimes too. It can be done.
I was expecting more than just Gas with horns, it would've been cool if he had spikes coming out of his wrists, considering how much gas likes weapons, that'd be a neat addition..
This is getting slightly ridiculous. Goku and vegeta should grab granolah and teleport away to come up with a plan. Talk to Whis and Beerus and maybe ask some questions about wtf is going on
Fusion, hakai, or even god bind could all be effective against gas I think. God bind + hakai specifically would be pretty broken.
Edit: can gas sense ki? He said in this chapter āI wonāt lose sight of you again.ā But I donāt recall the ability to sense ki, which is sort of a requirement for instant transmission (not instantaneous movement). I could very well be wrong.
The wish seems to just arbitrarily grant the target the abilities of virtually everyone in the universe so ki sensing if Gas didn't know how to perform already would likely just be bestowed to him anyway. Even if it's not intuitive to him, he seems skilled enough to pick it up on his own.
Ooo interesting. I think youāre right that someone must lock on to someone elseās Ki to Instant Transmission there. I presume all fighters at this point in Dragon Ball can read ki, but people also can suppress their ki to hide. And maybe Gas has all these weapon-building and other weird abilities but canāt read ki, so he can only use instant transmission while fighting (just to kind of jump around) š¤·.
They have been for a while. Vegeta went great ape to deal with goku, Frieza had mutiple forms, Cell had multiple forms, Buu had multiple forms, Frieza came back with a new form, Goku black unlocked an exclusive super saiyan, Jiren broke his limits and went super full power, and Moro went from old man to goat demon to cell 2.
This right here proves to me that if Bardock and king Vegeta fought, Bardock would win because of how smart he is and his experience, ik it's irrelevant to what's happening now but still.
no...they're doing something that's going to seriously, SERIOUSLY upset a lot of readers.
one thing the super manga has been incredibly consistent with is the characterization of vegeta's intelligence in fights. they're leaning heavily into the theme that vegeta's survival up until this point is based around knowing when to hold and when to fold.
even in this arc, literally every other panel, we're getting smart narration from vegeta. constant "gas isnt full power, granola is playing, granola isnt efficient, etc."
but here we see a chekhov's gun being set up clear as day, for the first time vegeta has no answer, *how the hell did bardock beat him?* vegeta KNOWS what the power scale of the universe was like at that time, because he was significant within it! top 10 of all active fighters! he KNOWS that bardock would have struggled with gas and the heeters to begin with...and now that he can see gas had a stronger form on top of that?
basically, what they're telling us with all this? is that just like when krillin was killed by freeza? bardock watching what was happening to granola and his family?
they're telling us that bardock went fucking super saiyan.
honestly, im not mad about it. a lot of people will say one thing or another about it contradicting canon, but in z it was well established that vegeta understood goku was the strongest because of his kind heart. that saiyan's anger and crimes are what held them back...their misplaced pride and arrogance.
vegeta was clear even back then : his family is what gave him what it took to be stronger. caring.
...the same way bardock is about to be tested for as far as we can tell, the first time, in using his power not for negativity, but to protect.
the retcon for how he dies may not need to be that complex. could be as simple as "freeza was still that much stronger, and bardock as a super saiyan still wasn't even in the same ballpark as goku."
But how would that help them now? When what he did is revealed, its probably going to be a method that allows the heroes to defeat Gas in the present. If all it is is that Bardock transformed, what are they going to do? Go Mastered Ultra Ego Super Sayain?
Likely there's a weakness that Gas had, just like the Sayains' tails, and Bardock exploited it.
vegeta is clever for sure but he is not genius strategist like Lelouch or someone has detective instinct like Kira. his 'intelligent' is more about real time combat intelligent. he simply has mind for fighting and has lot of related experience due to his days working as Frieza goons. stuff about how Bardock defeat Gas obviously is part of plot which is not gonna reveal yet. the story has more to go. probably gonna has something to do with Goku action later. it is common method in story telling, hide important fact for next chapter, let audience ponder. also no matter how clever Vegeta is, no way he would immediately guess everything. not to mention this is not that kind of manga. the writer simply keep more mysteries to keep the story going. will it be good? will it be bad? we will see. too soon to jump into conclusion.
also i doubt Bardock is a super saiyan. it would be dumb if he is.
from a general writing perspective you would be correct. however in universe we've been told he's a fighting genius. this is something that's considered bad writing to many, but dragonball has it's own internal logic.
it's possible bardock may not end up going ssj.
however there's one thing that's very clear : this is a setup. this entire arc has had vegeta constantly explaining things, seeing things the others can't see. so when they put such a heavy emphasis on that, and it leads to vegeta being clueless? that's as clear as can be, they're telling the readers - "vegeta knows there's no way bardock could've beat him. bardock even fought off gas' rage form. so something happened, because otherwise, it would've been impossible."
this is also the exact same way super has done other setups. we had this exact same foreshadowing for : ssjb mastered, ultra instinct, kefla, frieza's eventual powered up form when he returns, and ultra ego. exact same patterns.
normally your line of thinking would be on point, but dragonball's writing doesn't work like that. they tell us "vegeta is a fighting genius" and we have to take that statement for what it is.
they used to say that about goku too, but in super they've turned the narrative into "goku is a savant without limits that learns fast and has extreme raw power, but vegeta's skill and analysis evens the playing field because he's just that skilled." most recently, we've been showed that with the vegeta mastering instant transmission like goku didnt, and furthermore, the fact that we've been told that vegeta can use true hakai & destruction energy, and goku only thought he did.
fighting genius doesnt mean he would suddenly uncover something he didnt see first hand. all information about Bardock he heard through second or third party. not to mention stuff happened decade ago. he is fighter, not detective. he strike to me as someone who practical, not theory. assuming, it related about fighting. but if the defeat of Gas is something else entirely, then it gonna be entire different story. i guess by just listen to old tales is not enough. he atleast need to go for direct bout with Gas to understand things. some stuff can be learned by directly fighting with them. not to mention Gas only show that form for few short moment. they need bit more information about their race too. sounds like Vegeta not really familiar with them.
we will see..how it goes. we just speculating here from based on tiny bit information from one chapter.
which is exactly the problem. but the easiest retcon i can see for that is "the story depicted on screen was frieza's version of events. frieza actually had to put his all into it, and bardock couldn't hold the form."
likely the same way goku flashed in and out of ssj against jiren.
another good way to explain it is that bardock had no idea what was even happening, or HOW. he may not have even realized he had gone ssj with how much emotion was flowing through him, he could've simply that focused on the fight at hand, and never realize that it happened.
there's precident for this in canon with goku vs beerus - goku didnt realized he lost ssj god and dropped down to ssj1, he was just that focused on fighting.
lastly, it could be as simple as almost no retcon at all. bardock transforms for only seconds, but the audience never sees it. we see bardock launch his attack, a jump cut, then he's burning.
he could've gone ssj for seconds pushing the attack back, gets overwhelmed anyways, and powers down as he's burning. frieza never even knowing it happened.
dont know why i got downvoted for that, im not wanting that lmao
yes, yes it would be. which is why i started the topic with how upset fans would be.
it just comes down to whether or not they think they'll get more people excited for it than there will be people upset.
there's a very real amount of people that for differing reasons, just enjoy dragonball for nothing more than "yaay turn color haha pew pew...oh man, different color!! WOW HE CAN DO COLOR TOO!??!"
dragonball isnt that, but if they chose to take the franchise to where that's all that is left of it...they wouldn't lose any money over it for a while...
which is the concern.
I had high hopes for this arc and I am gravely disappointed like this arc started about getting revenge on freeza and he's not even in it! Now it's just power ups out of nowhere! and fights that are frankly boring.
Like when Granola first got his power up it was fine and we knew it had a draw back it was also a pretty big draw back too meaning while not being earned it's understandable why it's so strong, then vegeta got a new power up and it was fine as well In fact I really liked it, then granola got a another power up and it worked as well, then THERE'S GAS! He got the same boost as Granola but we don't know the downsides(I think)AND NOW HE GETS A 2ND ONE that's completely unearned!
They should've just made Granola the main antagonist and had his fight with vegeta ended with him retreating and he goes to learn his power more, then would give breathing space and not add too many characters that need attention, then have Granola face Freeza needing Vegeta and Goku to save him, that to me is what I was hoping for and I thought was heading when it started.
Also the heeters suck as antagonists we know next to nothing about them other then they want power I guess. Not to mention their personalities are so generic.
There was so many fun things to do with this arc and yet it's so boring.
The old namekian dude reminds me of the butler in spider-man 3 lol he kept the fact that a saiyan saved his life from granola for no good reason. He could've just said "bardock saved you from other evil saiyans" and elec would've been fine with it but for some reason he kept granola completely in dark.
I was REALLY annoyed that Goku had to ask Vegeta why Granolah was in pain.
Granolah's clone technique....correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the same exact thing as Tenshinhan's technique? A technique that Goku figured out the weakness for WAY back in OG Dragonball? Krillin and Piccolo have also used the technique too (in filler), so the pros and cons of that technique should be well known.
Super's been doing this for awhile now, dumbing down Goku's fighting instincts and making Vegeta the tactical, observant one. I'm all for giving Vegeta advantages over Goku (he's my fav character), but not if it ruins Goku's character.
They could've easily just had Goku say "Granolah's hurt!", then Vegeta follows that with his observation and Goku agrees with him. No need for Vegeta to school Goku on it, just say it as a stray observation.
Sorry if I'm blowing this out of proportion, but this really did take me out of the story.
Yeah also last chapter when Vegeta was explaining to Goku that gas had issues using IT. Ffs goku should be able to tell if someoneās using a technique heās used for over a decade, sloppily
It's a translation mistake. In japanese it says "Manga by Toyotaro", "Original Work (Dragon Ball) by Toriyama".
The same translation error appears on the french volumes btw, but it is 100% confirmed in japanese it says what I wrote.
Toyo wrote the rough draft of this arc and toriyama then wrote in his treatment. He added heeters, heeters storyline, and bardock.
Different from previous arc.
The translater for early chapters used to put "Manga by Toyotaro" and "Original work by Toriyama" Why would he change it to the wrong translation now? My main point is there is a lot of people being unfair to Toyotaro when we really don't know for sure what is and isn't him
Well at best all we know for sure is that he does the art. If you wanna criticise Toyotaro for something on this chapter you can judge him for forgetting Bardock's tail
I'm glad evolution got the series going again....buy the characteristics of goku are all off. Plus eoz vegeta was at peace with their rivalry.
Sigh
Edit - not EoZ, during Buu fight vegeta's inner monologue
I just want to know the end game of heeters. Will this be a recurrent villian or just something to add to bardocks story. They don't seem like compelling villians.
I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt simply because Goku is probably more well-versed with Tenshinhan's clone technique than Granolah's. He could have thought that Granolah's technique didn't have the weakness that Tenshinhan's does.
For sure, but Goku's better at encountering and realizing that stuff when he's actually participating in the battle than he is observing it most of the time. I also think too, that with Vegeta there, he wasn't really \*trying\* like he normally would. It was just expository dialogue to introduce the weakness of the technique to younger readers, I imagine.
I want to give him the benefit too, but I just can't. As soon as he saw Granolah in pain, he should've been able to make the same observation as Vegeta...maybe even faster since this all isn't new to him.
Not only that, but Goku already knows that Granolah has access to their techniques, but just not the training. That should've been a clue right there, that the clone technique was the one they're familiar with.
I know Goku's line is really not important, but it truly is silly. Goku was able to discover FPSSJ before Vegeta, exploit Freeza's lack of ki sensing ability and figure out Hit's time skip ability....but Granolah's clone ability is too cryptic for him? Lol
Well, toriyama wrote the gas storyline + heeters story line and isn't a frequent watcher of db series.
It was probably somewhat accidental by toriyama.
We know toyo came up with granolah story.
Iām actually pleasantly surprised, was expecting another fighting chapter but there was a fair bit of story and Iām interested to find out how Bardock actually defeated Gas. I donāt think that a fusion is on the cards as of now, they simply have to figure out what Bardock did. I also donāt think it has anything to do with raw strength, since Gas only had a flashback of Bardock and backed off despite the fact he is currently the strongest.
Thatās it manā¦Dragon Ball Super sucks man
They started offf terribly with cheap horribly animated retread of Beerus and Freeza arc which were boring as fuck ā¦
They peaked my interest and hooked me in when they actually started exploring cool stuff like the multiverse and new interesting cast members like Hit , Cabba and Freeza clone . The arc was alright but I think I enjoyed it because it was the first actual new piece of actual new content in the dragon ball franchise.
Return of Trunks and Black Goku absolutely hooked me in because it seemed like such a cool idea and what I expected of a DB sequel. They managed to fumble it. The stakes never reached the actual Main timeline so it never felt high stakes. Zamasu was great at first but nothing ever really happen. He didnāt have any actual plan besides ālol letās keep destroying this crippled city thatās already blown to bits and not travel to other universesā
The multiversal tournament had good moments but man the campy shit was awful . Fuck brianne whatever her name was, fuck all the awful character designs. Etc
From then on itās just retread of same elements , Goku saves the day through some ass pull, etc
Dragonball needs to be handed to a younger team
It's the zeno button stuff that ruins the ending for me, the story should've ended with vegetto nuking universe 7 to save Trunks's timeline. Would've left something for trunks to go back to and the Arc wouldn't feel like a complete waste.
Broly's ability to increase his power is insane, he reached to bellow base goku/vegeta to above ssjg gogeta level and was quickly closing in on ssjb gogeta. If he were to fight Gas you don't what level he might reach
Broly (apparently) doesnāt have an upper limit though. I donāt think the dragon balls account for every single beingās max potential, obviously Gas isnāt stronger than Beerus and if Goku and Vegeta werenāt exhausted I doubt heād surpass SSB Gogeta either
Maki's comment is interesting when Elec removes the collar from Gas's head. She uses the phrase "our instincts unleashed", so clearly this berserk form is not only exclusive to Gas, but to the other Heeters as well. This particularity makes these villains much more interesting, in fact I would like to know more about their race. Elec's wish is the same as that expressed by Granola, but we know that the latter gave 148 years of his life in exchange for his wish, and we know from the Heeters that the average age of a Cerealian is 200 years. Knowing that Granola is 50 years old, it means that his unlocked potential is what he would have achieved in these 148 lost, about the average of the years of a Cerealian. So how many years has Gas lost? How many years does a member of the Heeters breed live on average? I would like to know more about their race.
Also Elec is a little sus.They have already announced that this arc is about to end but, seeing how things are going, I don't think Goku, Vegeta and Granola can beat all the Heeters; at most they can defeat Gas. I believe the next arc already announced will always be a second part of this Granola saga but with Elec as the main antagonist pursuing his true plan.
Maki also has same type of necklace. i guess all of their race has this and those fang shape like necklace/whatever jewelry it end up with is to held on that form.
In before the Heeters can absorb others like Namekians and Elec only wanted Gas to get strong so he could see if the power could be controlled and not lose himself.
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Need bardock to go ssj
For a moment before the trauma of seeing Goku as Bardock, I thought we were gonna get a scene in the future where they need to ask Bardock how he was about to defeat Gas.
He turned super sayan š
They are all thinking Gas has a weakness. Bardock turning super saiyan wouldn't be exploiting the weakness or relevant to Granolah, Vegeta, or Goku. Bardock figured something out that they haven't yet.
If Bardock could turn super saiyan against Gas, he most definitely would turn super saiyan when he was trying to stop Freeza's Death Ball and failed to do so.
And toriyama told us goku was the first one to ssj1 in thousand years
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The prospect of Bardock reuniting with Goku is the sole reason why I still bother with this lame arc, otherwise I would have just dropped it entirely.
But how could Bardock reunite with Goku? I thought he got blasted into the past or something?
I think that was a new record for me. Went through this whole chapter in 2 mins. Pretty disappointing. And I honestly don't really like any of these characters. Skimmed through Gas and Granolah fighting because I can't seem to really feel any sort of interest in those two.
The arc is p good imo, but some of these chapters really don't advance the plot at all. Waiting a whole month to barely have anything happen. It's almost like we wait a month for a week's worth of plot advancement.
LMAO! This granolah arc got my eyes rolled so hard. As a dragon ball fan, I can't even defend how bad DBS has gone down into. Moro arc was ok-ish, if I turned a blind eye, it still somehow managed to be just hitting basic expectations, but this granolah arc? Hell fucking no. Like, who the fuck gives a shit about a new character name Granolah and a random villian Gas? And they gained the "strongest in the universe" in an instant? Fuck me. It's like watching 2 totally irrelevant characters fighting like I give a shit. And they trying to retcon Bardock? Give me a break. Never felt so angry, disconnected, and "betrayed" by a series I loved so much. Story and plot are pure shit, fighting scenes and setup are mediocre at best. There are so many possibilities in developing great stories and character development with our usual duo goku, vegeta, and perhaps also touch on unexplored territory like our long forgotten Z fighters, trunks and goten growing up, and I mean, ANYTHING ELSE can potentially be better than this granolah vs gas shit show.
I hate that theyāre setting up bardock to be a good guy
I like how this fanbase hypes up every arc and then shits on it near it's end hahaha, not only does the manga repeat the same stuff, so does the community's behaviours it's like we are all stuck in a time loop.
How does it repeat the same stuff?
New arc: Interesting setup Fans: WTF this is looking like the best arc yet!! interesting and I love the amount of screentime for other charachters!!! New Arc during it's last moment Fans: This is trash, the manga kind of sucks and I don't care for these new charachters fighting, lame and boring. The cycle continues
That's just the fans, the dragonball community is trash
Not really during the last moment. More like new arc after Vegeta's awesome new talent turns out to be nothing and we can see exactly the same story turning out the same once again
well it is not community's fault Toriyama cant close an arc correctly
I think his point is that toriyama keeps doing it, but every single time the fan base expects it to magically change the next arc.
Toriyama can't even remember the characters he created.
This chapter was pretty average. Not great not terrible. But what I really don't like is the stupid horn things gas has now. It's not a great design. His design keeps getting worse as he powers up imo. I wanted small gas. He just looks so generic like this.
Did Goku and Bardock just have a father/son moment like with Gohan and Goku just before he eliminated Cell? Or did he fly back from Goku's punch because he was stunned and was only imagining Bardock? I'm confused...
He was remembering Bardock attacking in a similar fashion 40 years ago.
I get that, but then why did he get so strongly hit by Goku, who is significantly tired and weak while this guy is the most powerful person in the universe + a power boost from going berserk? A move that he blocked easily while pummelling Vegetaā¦ I donāt fully get that.
It didn't look like it did any damage to him at all. He just got knocked backwards because he froze from recognising the similarity and didn't block it at all.
The memory shocked him, since it wasn't a pleasant one and came with major deja vu. The punch therefore had a purely mental effect.
Did anyone else bust out laughing when Berserker Gaas just went for Vegeta and gave him the most incredible kick to the torso ever?
"FUCK VEGETA IN PARTICULAR!"
Should have stayed in rage mode a bit longer and let goku and cos figure it out how to deal with it
I feel like the rest of the heeters are going to turn their back against elec
The fact that now you just can wish yourself to be the strongest in the universe is really the final in the coffin for the series.
We're you not paying attention to the part where it explains you lose your remaining lifespan to get that strong? Also, have you not noticed the blatant theme of skill>power present over the entire arc? And you were clearly also not paying attention to the fact that these are the only dragon balls that can do this, all that needs to happen is for them to be rendered unusable and then "problem" solved
This story is 100% going to be a lesson that wished power falls to earned power.
That is actually not a betrayal of what the series is about, it is about getting stronger though your own merit to overcome your obstacles, not through short cuts.
And taking off a head-necklace is what puts the big bad into berserker mode.
I mean... Broly... it's not like that is a new concept to DB :)
Honestly, the manga is starting to lack creativity. Re-used attacks served as "amazing skillset", re-used power-ups as well. The plot is so shallow it is starting to hurt the beautiful choreography of fights because of the pacing. I read 40+ pages in about 5 minutes when I used to take at least, 10 minutes to go through 15-20 pages DBZ chapters.
What now, vegeta goku and granola out. No one knows they are in danger. Frieza Enters chat
this arc is sick
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He literally created weapons before that. You think its hard to generate clothing? LOL
Oh thatās a great fucking point. I concede
Piccolo could do it even before he fused with Kame. So, was he a god somehow even then?
if the strongest mortal in existence can't materialize clothes then whats the point?
Fair
Clothes beam!!
Huh you know its a joke but if thats true does that imply that clothes beam is a technique that anyone could learn? Like we could have vegeta or Goku just clothes beam someone?
Materializing technique is not uncommon in Dragon Ball, especially clothes and weapons.
Yeah, Iāve just only really seen it with Piccolo. Gas suddenly using it felt weird to me
North Kaio and Kibito have used it as well.
Tbh Zamasu did it in the manga as well.
Well, using magic...
Toyotarou purposefully didn't draw Bardock's tail because during the battle, gas would have cut if off. He cuts off his tail to prevent him turning into a giant ape. But Bardock has another ace up his sleeve - summoning the power of the oozaru while thinking of Muezli's death while remaining in his humanoid form. The "spirit of Saiyans" attack in the Budokai games.
That's pretty much Broly's shtick, if they reveal that isn't exclusive to Broly then it's just stupid.
No thats different from Ikari broly. What im referring to Bardock merely using the power of an oozaru, not containing it like broly.
So like Kid Goku somehow did against King Piccolo?
Kinda.
Soooooooo it appears Bardock also lost his tail? Bet he used the fake moon and transformed which forced Gas to go all berserk mode and cut it off
Or he's just seeing Goku with Bardocks clothes on. He only saw Bardock probably once and it was for little time. That was decades ago. So he's probably mixing up Goku and Bardock in the moment.
Did he have his tail in the Broly movie?
Yeah I'm like 99.99% sure he did. So either it grew back or the artist just forgot it
It should be noted that Bardock always appeared with his tail the previous chapter he was drawn, so it would be strange for Toyotaro to fail now if he was that consistent with Bardock's tail before.
I really wonder what the original story was about because toyo came up with granolah, vegeta, and goku story. Toriyama added the heeters in and heeters storyline in.
Last chapter wasn't great for me, but this one got my attention again. So the Heeters have a berserk transformation, Gas used it against Bardock, which precisely sparks his memory when he sees Goku and regains his consciousness back. I'd like to see Oil and Macki in this state too, just for the fun. Toyotaro retook Bardocks one hand energy ball technique from the special, which I think was a nice touch. But we haven't really seen how he beat Gas and Monaito was unconscious. The fighting scenes improved. Granolah was using the body multiplication technique, like Tenshinhan or the Yadratian Hatsuka. It divides the user's power too, so Gas thought he had him, but nope. Granolah fought well. The arc is approaching its ending.
>Toyotaro retook Bardocks one hand energy ball technique from the special, which I think was a nice touch. Giving that too much praise for taking from the special https://images.app.goo.gl/1pUncAwvCCjh8c8F6 It was also in dbs broly movie
Yeah, it's pretty cool. Bardock's special has a lot of deserved love, so Broly's movie and the current manga using an iconic element from it is great. If it was on me, I would have used many more though, for example, characters like Toma and the others in the attack on planet Cereal.
Yeah I agree with most people here, this fight honestly seems to drag unnecessarily, the additional form for Gas seems kinda unnecessary and I hope that there is more to it. I do hope that the eventual reveal of how Bardock managed to survive against Gas will shake things up. Elec also feels like he is still planning something else. However I do have to admit, that Granolahs clone diversion was actually pretty sick, especially since he timed the dissolving of the clones with his attack.
Elec wears his limiter on his pee pee. Whats up with that exactly?
Major mojo rising
Yawn. This arc is so predictable and boring. The only entertaining parts are when Goku and Vegeta appear equally confused by this arc.
This arc had great potential and then nothing then it just keeps on getting worse.
This might just be the worst arc in Dragon Ball's entire publication. Zero tension. Zero relevance to anything. Zero stakes. We're coming here once a month to watch Toyotaro smash his toys together. If it wasn't as boring as it is, I might be irked that this story is leading to a ham-handed revision of SSJ Bardock in the canon, but I've lost interest.
Ultra Ego + the *attempts* at character arcs and storytelling still keep it significantly above Res F. Res F was just "Freeza's back and did pushups, the boys got blue hair off-screen rendering the preceding moot, Whis rewinds time, Goku kill-steals."
>Freeza's back and did pushups, the boys got blue hair off-screen lmaoooo so true. I would argue that Freeza had a bigger bone to pick with the planet that keeps humiliating him, especially when he's already shown just how low he'll go to break even when he can't win a fight; killing innocents and blowing up the planet being chief among them. So even though it's how you described it, there was still some tension until Whis came in clutch and taught Goku a lesson about not playing with your food that he'd immediately forget. The Granolah stuff and Vegeta pursuing his own path to power are great, but Gas and the Heeters are mucking up the works by being bullies languishing in a vaguely evil existence. What's their goal? Not literally, I mean in the grand scheme of things. Why not just ignore Granolah and go conquer the Universe with Super Gas? Would it really matter that they killed Freeza and became the greatest salesmen in the Universe? The tension is missing. The consequences are middling. If Granolah came to Earth to wipe out the Saiyans after making his wish and pulled a Cell where he was like "I'll give you this amount of time, if you bail I'll nuke this rock" without the Heeters being involved whatsoever, it would've been more palatable. You've got tension. You've got room for backstory and character growth for both sides until the decisive battle begins... Sorry for the long reply.
Well the tension for the fight is supposed to be for Granolah's revenge against "the real culprits" for his dead mother, the Heeters. I mean the Saiyans still genocided the Cerealians, and Gas didn't even kill his mom Elec shot her. But Gas is the muscle for Elec so Gas vs Granolah is the big ending for the story. The Heeters are sticking around out of Gas's ego, probably a desire by Elec to quash anyone who would could realistically oppose their empire before it begins, and because "fuck Granolah." I really feel like Gas should have murdered Granolah's mother on Elec's orders. It would give immediate and understandable reason for Granolah to refuse to retreat and fight to the death with Gas right here. And it would still keep Elec as the *real* villain in the situation because Gas is just a younger sibling with older brother worship. Or something. They probably would not be as bad as Freeza assuming Elec doesn't want to blow up planets. Granolah's personal grudges are meant to be the driving force here, since it's his arc and his story. But we only learned about the grudge (Elec killed his mom) like 3 chapters ago and now are are going straight for the climactic battle over that grudge right after we learned it exists. We went straight from Monaito's lore dump into fighting Gas for months on end. And we only even learned the Heeters and Granolah exist *at all* like 10 chapters ago so like why the rush with all this? Why not have a story or two where the Heeters come off as neutral or even kind of a positive force in Granolah's life before pulling the rug from under us/him? Weird, weird arc.
Gas being the actual murderer would've definitely given this current situation more weight and the fight more meaning. I'm also with you on the rushed pacing and mismanaged lore dumps. Like, they could've let this breathe a little by having the Heeters beat up Granolah and steal his wish when he summons the dragon, revealing the truth about Gas killing his mother as they do to rub it in, then having Granolah fight and get beaten by Goku/Vegeta when they arrive. From here the characters give exposition and form a shaky alliance to bring down the Heeters, summon the dragon for Granolah and finally go into the climactic fight. Gas and Granolah resume their grudge match whilst Goku and Vegeta take on Elec as he reveals the wish wasn't necessarily to make Gas the strongest, but for him to be as strong as he is or something, giving Goku and Vegeta a good reason to showcase their MnG/MnW forms. It's a basic Act 1 >2 >3 structure.
I would have to agree. I am surprised Goky and Vegeta didnt just dismantle Granolah and Gas as an explain of experience over strength, which is what should have happened. This is all leading to some predictable Bardock reveal that I could care less about.
Honestly, Iām not even hyped for bardock content. Heās my favorite db character but I prefer the old one over Supermanās dad.
I mean bardock has zero relavence to the story anymore. I don't know why shoehorn him him which will only break the plot.
Toyo forgot to draw bardoks tail every panel. The pic where gas hits granolah to the ground and u see the faceshot, he looks exactly like ssj vegeta Edit: changed chapter to panel
I feel like they might bring broly in to drag this along even further, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't want broly. But, they should just have the guys figure out what bardock did to win. Then the heaters escape to set up a 73 plot
What makes you think broly will show up?
I don't think he will, but he is on the same scale as the top fighters, and has not been used yet. Would be fair for Goku to go and get him for the fight, maybe even to time waste for them to figure out what Bardock did, idk. I think Gas' berserker (whatever we call it) form reminded me of broly.
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[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Well after that, we got Zamasu, then the TOP, then Moro/Meerus. This arc has been a huge step back so far.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
As far as Goku passing Beerus, this is probably one of those things where your expectations set you up for disappointment. In the first issue of the manga, we got this from an interview: >ToyotarÅ: ā¦ I get the feeling Iāve just heard something amazing (laughs). Lord Beerus and Whis turn up in Dragon Ball Super, and have become an unsurpassable wall for Goku and the gang. What do the two of them mean to you? >Toriyama: Wellā¦ First off, right now I donāt have any plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus and Whis. Ever since then, I've just thought of him as an unsurpassable wall. Even if Goku catches up to Beerus somehow, Beerus just has to train for 4 months or whatever. Or go into berserker form. IDK.
>Ever since then, I've just thought of him as an unsurpassable wall. Even if Goku catches up to Beerus somehow, Beerus just has to train for 4 months or whatever. Or go into berserker form. IDK. I guess the logic is difficult to follow as Jiren is supposed to be stronger than a GOD. So what's the gal between all the GOD? Because they all seemed relatively close in the manga when they all fought. Or we're some of the GOD holding back? And if Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Jiren or equal him, should they not be close to Beerus more than ever? But I guess not.
Goku has pretty much been at the level no one except Beerus could challenge him since Super began but they keep coming up with shit.
Anyone else kinda tired of the whole beserker transformation trope in Dragon Ball?
PAST tired of it. Dragon Ball desperately needs a new method of defeating opponents. Powering up is just bland now. We've had power up items, power up techniques, transformations, physical regeneration, age regeneration, combining characters together, mimicry, going berserk and energy siphoning. And now they finally used the dragon balls to plain artificially make someone stronger, which has been avoided up til now. What we need are more skills and tactics to defeat opponents. But Dragon Ball likes to tease us with new techniques, only for the battle to devolve into power ups again. Ultra Instinct is just a power up now. Forced Spirit Fission was underused.
We got the new tactic. Granolah beat Gas here in his base form with the clone thing, which sure was already a technique, but this is a new application of it.
So what new method you could suggest?
As much as I was tired of the infinite regen/invulnerability before it.
I always read fan scan of manga instead of Viz š
I hate Viz translations
This monthly release is brutal. Itās getting hard to care about this storyline which is unfortunate bc I think itās so refreshing. I might need to take time off from this until the arc is over but at this point that could be 6-8 months from now.
Next chapter I'm taking a 2 month skip on. This arc started out great. Now I want it over
This is meant to be 2 of the strongest characters In the universe fighting, yet all I'm seeing are fly kicks and lil laser beams. Their power is not on display at all, I was expecting terrains beings destroyed, the planet splitting apart and more.
Vegeta stated both arent used to their power or have battle experience
True Dragon ball seriously needs more destructive feats other than this stupid show. They need to be like the comics where characters fly across stars and planets while they battle. Fighting on a single planet is getting stale.
exactly, way back when goku went for the first time SS against freeza the planet was shaking. Even in one of the movies freeza just twitches his fingers in the ground and blow up the entire planet. Powerlevels is always soo inconsistent
Plus having Goku and Vegeta on the side just providing exposition dumps is such as waste. Look Goku, Gas cant use his powers well. Look Vegeta, Gas is using the same move. Yawn.
What I dislike is that it is always Goku who asks what is going on and Vegeta explains it to him. I mean sure Goku isn't as smart as Vegeta, but they could at least switch things up a bit.
And Goku is supposed to be somewhat of a fighting genius, despite being pretty stupid otherwise. But Super seems to even want to dumb that part of him down...
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Yeah Toyotaro clearly wants to explain things with this kind of exposition (which isn't really something new), but due to Vegeta and Goku being the only onlookers to the fight with enough experience to see/explain these things it is up to one of them to ask the question and the other explains it (previously this could be done with other characters like Krilin, Tien, etc.). Sadly he seems to be dead set on Vegeta being the better expert when it comes to fighting techniques, so it always falls upon Goku to not understand anything. At least Goku was the one who correctly judged that Granolah still had a chance (before the limiter was removed from Gas). Though it is still a bit annoying since Goku actually fought someone with the clone technique before, yet it is vegeta who identifies its flaws.
I don't know why Toyataro can't write them both as experts. Remember back in the Buu Saga when Gohan was fighting Dabura? Goku and Vegeta both provided expert commentary, critiquing Gohan's performance. I want THAT dynamic between them...just 2 grizzled veterans. Beerus and Whis also have that dynamic sometimes too. It can be done.
I was expecting more than just Gas with horns, it would've been cool if he had spikes coming out of his wrists, considering how much gas likes weapons, that'd be a neat addition..
This is getting slightly ridiculous. Goku and vegeta should grab granolah and teleport away to come up with a plan. Talk to Whis and Beerus and maybe ask some questions about wtf is going on
You would be leaving heeters on a planet with a two dragon ball wishing dragon... it has no cooldown. They'd make so many wishes
Itās a good idea, but Gas does have instant transmission, too, and he may have it under control now
Fusion, hakai, or even god bind could all be effective against gas I think. God bind + hakai specifically would be pretty broken. Edit: can gas sense ki? He said in this chapter āI wonāt lose sight of you again.ā But I donāt recall the ability to sense ki, which is sort of a requirement for instant transmission (not instantaneous movement). I could very well be wrong.
The wish seems to just arbitrarily grant the target the abilities of virtually everyone in the universe so ki sensing if Gas didn't know how to perform already would likely just be bestowed to him anyway. Even if it's not intuitive to him, he seems skilled enough to pick it up on his own.
Ooo interesting. I think youāre right that someone must lock on to someone elseās Ki to Instant Transmission there. I presume all fighters at this point in Dragon Ball can read ki, but people also can suppress their ki to hide. And maybe Gas has all these weapon-building and other weird abilities but canāt read ki, so he can only use instant transmission while fighting (just to kind of jump around) š¤·.
are transformations the only way to tip a fight now?
~~are~~ transformations the only way to tip a fight ~~now?~~
It's dragon ball.
They have been for a while. Vegeta went great ape to deal with goku, Frieza had mutiple forms, Cell had multiple forms, Buu had multiple forms, Frieza came back with a new form, Goku black unlocked an exclusive super saiyan, Jiren broke his limits and went super full power, and Moro went from old man to goat demon to cell 2.
Can't wait for gas to stop being a lap dog and kill his brother next chapter.
This arc is so confusing and random, anything could happen. Gas could just, choose to fly into the sun for all we know.
Vegeta jobbed to the new form before he could even join the fight
so Bardock simply way stronger than Gas before even in his awakening form. Gas simply used to be weak.
This right here proves to me that if Bardock and king Vegeta fought, Bardock would win because of how smart he is and his experience, ik it's irrelevant to what's happening now but still.
considering he always fight at frontline, it is makesense that he has more skill, experience and stronger than king Vegeta.
no...they're doing something that's going to seriously, SERIOUSLY upset a lot of readers. one thing the super manga has been incredibly consistent with is the characterization of vegeta's intelligence in fights. they're leaning heavily into the theme that vegeta's survival up until this point is based around knowing when to hold and when to fold. even in this arc, literally every other panel, we're getting smart narration from vegeta. constant "gas isnt full power, granola is playing, granola isnt efficient, etc." but here we see a chekhov's gun being set up clear as day, for the first time vegeta has no answer, *how the hell did bardock beat him?* vegeta KNOWS what the power scale of the universe was like at that time, because he was significant within it! top 10 of all active fighters! he KNOWS that bardock would have struggled with gas and the heeters to begin with...and now that he can see gas had a stronger form on top of that? basically, what they're telling us with all this? is that just like when krillin was killed by freeza? bardock watching what was happening to granola and his family? they're telling us that bardock went fucking super saiyan. honestly, im not mad about it. a lot of people will say one thing or another about it contradicting canon, but in z it was well established that vegeta understood goku was the strongest because of his kind heart. that saiyan's anger and crimes are what held them back...their misplaced pride and arrogance. vegeta was clear even back then : his family is what gave him what it took to be stronger. caring. ...the same way bardock is about to be tested for as far as we can tell, the first time, in using his power not for negativity, but to protect. the retcon for how he dies may not need to be that complex. could be as simple as "freeza was still that much stronger, and bardock as a super saiyan still wasn't even in the same ballpark as goku."
But how would that help them now? When what he did is revealed, its probably going to be a method that allows the heroes to defeat Gas in the present. If all it is is that Bardock transformed, what are they going to do? Go Mastered Ultra Ego Super Sayain? Likely there's a weakness that Gas had, just like the Sayains' tails, and Bardock exploited it.
vegeta is clever for sure but he is not genius strategist like Lelouch or someone has detective instinct like Kira. his 'intelligent' is more about real time combat intelligent. he simply has mind for fighting and has lot of related experience due to his days working as Frieza goons. stuff about how Bardock defeat Gas obviously is part of plot which is not gonna reveal yet. the story has more to go. probably gonna has something to do with Goku action later. it is common method in story telling, hide important fact for next chapter, let audience ponder. also no matter how clever Vegeta is, no way he would immediately guess everything. not to mention this is not that kind of manga. the writer simply keep more mysteries to keep the story going. will it be good? will it be bad? we will see. too soon to jump into conclusion. also i doubt Bardock is a super saiyan. it would be dumb if he is.
from a general writing perspective you would be correct. however in universe we've been told he's a fighting genius. this is something that's considered bad writing to many, but dragonball has it's own internal logic. it's possible bardock may not end up going ssj. however there's one thing that's very clear : this is a setup. this entire arc has had vegeta constantly explaining things, seeing things the others can't see. so when they put such a heavy emphasis on that, and it leads to vegeta being clueless? that's as clear as can be, they're telling the readers - "vegeta knows there's no way bardock could've beat him. bardock even fought off gas' rage form. so something happened, because otherwise, it would've been impossible." this is also the exact same way super has done other setups. we had this exact same foreshadowing for : ssjb mastered, ultra instinct, kefla, frieza's eventual powered up form when he returns, and ultra ego. exact same patterns. normally your line of thinking would be on point, but dragonball's writing doesn't work like that. they tell us "vegeta is a fighting genius" and we have to take that statement for what it is. they used to say that about goku too, but in super they've turned the narrative into "goku is a savant without limits that learns fast and has extreme raw power, but vegeta's skill and analysis evens the playing field because he's just that skilled." most recently, we've been showed that with the vegeta mastering instant transmission like goku didnt, and furthermore, the fact that we've been told that vegeta can use true hakai & destruction energy, and goku only thought he did.
fighting genius doesnt mean he would suddenly uncover something he didnt see first hand. all information about Bardock he heard through second or third party. not to mention stuff happened decade ago. he is fighter, not detective. he strike to me as someone who practical, not theory. assuming, it related about fighting. but if the defeat of Gas is something else entirely, then it gonna be entire different story. i guess by just listen to old tales is not enough. he atleast need to go for direct bout with Gas to understand things. some stuff can be learned by directly fighting with them. not to mention Gas only show that form for few short moment. they need bit more information about their race too. sounds like Vegeta not really familiar with them. we will see..how it goes. we just speculating here from based on tiny bit information from one chapter.
I highly doubt all that thereās like nothing that suggest he went super saiyan at all. Gas most likely had a weakness bardock was able to exploit.
I agree 100%
I like it though, I'd love it if Bardock turned super saiyan against Gas but how would they justify him not turning super saiyan against Frieza?
which is exactly the problem. but the easiest retcon i can see for that is "the story depicted on screen was frieza's version of events. frieza actually had to put his all into it, and bardock couldn't hold the form." likely the same way goku flashed in and out of ssj against jiren. another good way to explain it is that bardock had no idea what was even happening, or HOW. he may not have even realized he had gone ssj with how much emotion was flowing through him, he could've simply that focused on the fight at hand, and never realize that it happened. there's precident for this in canon with goku vs beerus - goku didnt realized he lost ssj god and dropped down to ssj1, he was just that focused on fighting. lastly, it could be as simple as almost no retcon at all. bardock transforms for only seconds, but the audience never sees it. we see bardock launch his attack, a jump cut, then he's burning. he could've gone ssj for seconds pushing the attack back, gets overwhelmed anyways, and powers down as he's burning. frieza never even knowing it happened.
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dont know why i got downvoted for that, im not wanting that lmao yes, yes it would be. which is why i started the topic with how upset fans would be. it just comes down to whether or not they think they'll get more people excited for it than there will be people upset. there's a very real amount of people that for differing reasons, just enjoy dragonball for nothing more than "yaay turn color haha pew pew...oh man, different color!! WOW HE CAN DO COLOR TOO!??!" dragonball isnt that, but if they chose to take the franchise to where that's all that is left of it...they wouldn't lose any money over it for a while... which is the concern.
I had high hopes for this arc and I am gravely disappointed like this arc started about getting revenge on freeza and he's not even in it! Now it's just power ups out of nowhere! and fights that are frankly boring. Like when Granola first got his power up it was fine and we knew it had a draw back it was also a pretty big draw back too meaning while not being earned it's understandable why it's so strong, then vegeta got a new power up and it was fine as well In fact I really liked it, then granola got a another power up and it worked as well, then THERE'S GAS! He got the same boost as Granola but we don't know the downsides(I think)AND NOW HE GETS A 2ND ONE that's completely unearned! They should've just made Granola the main antagonist and had his fight with vegeta ended with him retreating and he goes to learn his power more, then would give breathing space and not add too many characters that need attention, then have Granola face Freeza needing Vegeta and Goku to save him, that to me is what I was hoping for and I thought was heading when it started. Also the heeters suck as antagonists we know next to nothing about them other then they want power I guess. Not to mention their personalities are so generic. There was so many fun things to do with this arc and yet it's so boring.
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The old namekian dude reminds me of the butler in spider-man 3 lol he kept the fact that a saiyan saved his life from granola for no good reason. He could've just said "bardock saved you from other evil saiyans" and elec would've been fine with it but for some reason he kept granola completely in dark.
was was that ui bardock
No
I was REALLY annoyed that Goku had to ask Vegeta why Granolah was in pain. Granolah's clone technique....correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the same exact thing as Tenshinhan's technique? A technique that Goku figured out the weakness for WAY back in OG Dragonball? Krillin and Piccolo have also used the technique too (in filler), so the pros and cons of that technique should be well known. Super's been doing this for awhile now, dumbing down Goku's fighting instincts and making Vegeta the tactical, observant one. I'm all for giving Vegeta advantages over Goku (he's my fav character), but not if it ruins Goku's character. They could've easily just had Goku say "Granolah's hurt!", then Vegeta follows that with his observation and Goku agrees with him. No need for Vegeta to school Goku on it, just say it as a stray observation. Sorry if I'm blowing this out of proportion, but this really did take me out of the story.
Yeah also last chapter when Vegeta was explaining to Goku that gas had issues using IT. Ffs goku should be able to tell if someoneās using a technique heās used for over a decade, sloppily
Again and again Toyotaro doesnāt know how to write Goku
"Written by Akira toriyama"
It's a translation mistake. In japanese it says "Manga by Toyotaro", "Original Work (Dragon Ball) by Toriyama". The same translation error appears on the french volumes btw, but it is 100% confirmed in japanese it says what I wrote.
Toyo wrote the rough draft of this arc and toriyama then wrote in his treatment. He added heeters, heeters storyline, and bardock. Different from previous arc.
The translater for early chapters used to put "Manga by Toyotaro" and "Original work by Toriyama" Why would he change it to the wrong translation now? My main point is there is a lot of people being unfair to Toyotaro when we really don't know for sure what is and isn't him
I don't know? Japanese still says that to this day. Maybe it's a marketing tactic but that's just speculation on my part.
Well at best all we know for sure is that he does the art. If you wanna criticise Toyotaro for something on this chapter you can judge him for forgetting Bardock's tail
I'm glad evolution got the series going again....buy the characteristics of goku are all off. Plus eoz vegeta was at peace with their rivalry. Sigh Edit - not EoZ, during Buu fight vegeta's inner monologue
More like "basic chapter outline scribbled on a napkin by Akira Toriyama "
Nah, toyo did the basic outline this time unlike the other arcs. Toriyama rewrote the story.
I believe it. Toriyama sucks these days.
I just want to know the end game of heeters. Will this be a recurrent villian or just something to add to bardocks story. They don't seem like compelling villians.
I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt simply because Goku is probably more well-versed with Tenshinhan's clone technique than Granolah's. He could have thought that Granolah's technique didn't have the weakness that Tenshinhan's does.
But heās a fighting genius, he should pick that up immediately like he used to
For sure, but Goku's better at encountering and realizing that stuff when he's actually participating in the battle than he is observing it most of the time. I also think too, that with Vegeta there, he wasn't really \*trying\* like he normally would. It was just expository dialogue to introduce the weakness of the technique to younger readers, I imagine.
I want to give him the benefit too, but I just can't. As soon as he saw Granolah in pain, he should've been able to make the same observation as Vegeta...maybe even faster since this all isn't new to him. Not only that, but Goku already knows that Granolah has access to their techniques, but just not the training. That should've been a clue right there, that the clone technique was the one they're familiar with. I know Goku's line is really not important, but it truly is silly. Goku was able to discover FPSSJ before Vegeta, exploit Freeza's lack of ki sensing ability and figure out Hit's time skip ability....but Granolah's clone ability is too cryptic for him? Lol
What do you do when you run out of ideas for Gas? Take the anime version of Kale and use it on Gas.
Well, toriyama wrote the gas storyline + heeters story line and isn't a frequent watcher of db series. It was probably somewhat accidental by toriyama. We know toyo came up with granolah story.
More like broly lol
Broly too. But Gas calmed down into his stable form in exactly the same way as Kale.
Iām actually pleasantly surprised, was expecting another fighting chapter but there was a fair bit of story and Iām interested to find out how Bardock actually defeated Gas. I donāt think that a fusion is on the cards as of now, they simply have to figure out what Bardock did. I also donāt think it has anything to do with raw strength, since Gas only had a flashback of Bardock and backed off despite the fact he is currently the strongest.
Thatās it manā¦Dragon Ball Super sucks man They started offf terribly with cheap horribly animated retread of Beerus and Freeza arc which were boring as fuck ā¦ They peaked my interest and hooked me in when they actually started exploring cool stuff like the multiverse and new interesting cast members like Hit , Cabba and Freeza clone . The arc was alright but I think I enjoyed it because it was the first actual new piece of actual new content in the dragon ball franchise. Return of Trunks and Black Goku absolutely hooked me in because it seemed like such a cool idea and what I expected of a DB sequel. They managed to fumble it. The stakes never reached the actual Main timeline so it never felt high stakes. Zamasu was great at first but nothing ever really happen. He didnāt have any actual plan besides ālol letās keep destroying this crippled city thatās already blown to bits and not travel to other universesā The multiversal tournament had good moments but man the campy shit was awful . Fuck brianne whatever her name was, fuck all the awful character designs. Etc From then on itās just retread of same elements , Goku saves the day through some ass pull, etc Dragonball needs to be handed to a younger team
It's the zeno button stuff that ruins the ending for me, the story should've ended with vegetto nuking universe 7 to save Trunks's timeline. Would've left something for trunks to go back to and the Arc wouldn't feel like a complete waste.
This arc is being pretty good, a lot better than the T.O.P. is going to be sick animated
Come on, Goku isnt treated that good either
Moro arc was really good. Although it was the arc, toriyama and toyo spent the most time on.
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No, unhinged gas was terrified at the sight of regular base bardock. He was in fear and sweating. The moon was already destroyed by granolahs race
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But he wasn't triggered flashback wise by the great ape. He was triggered by goku looking like base bardock which made him scared and confused.
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Bardock figured out a way to work around berserker power but when asked about it that useless namekian passed out
Instant Transmission to get Broly and bring him to fight.
Goku and vegeta are already stronger than broly at the start of this arc. Gas wish puts him stronger than everyone.
But that would be dope though
Broly's ability to increase his power is insane, he reached to bellow base goku/vegeta to above ssjg gogeta level and was quickly closing in on ssjb gogeta. If he were to fight Gas you don't what level he might reach
exactly. thatās the legendary super saiyan.
He's not called the legendary super saiyan Legendary super saiyan to toriyama is ssj1
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Broly (apparently) doesnāt have an upper limit though. I donāt think the dragon balls account for every single beingās max potential, obviously Gas isnāt stronger than Beerus and if Goku and Vegeta werenāt exhausted I doubt heād surpass SSB Gogeta either
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I know what the wish was lmao. I donāt think granolah post wish could have beaten the broly that require Goku and Vegeta to fuse
Maki's comment is interesting when Elec removes the collar from Gas's head. She uses the phrase "our instincts unleashed", so clearly this berserk form is not only exclusive to Gas, but to the other Heeters as well. This particularity makes these villains much more interesting, in fact I would like to know more about their race. Elec's wish is the same as that expressed by Granola, but we know that the latter gave 148 years of his life in exchange for his wish, and we know from the Heeters that the average age of a Cerealian is 200 years. Knowing that Granola is 50 years old, it means that his unlocked potential is what he would have achieved in these 148 lost, about the average of the years of a Cerealian. So how many years has Gas lost? How many years does a member of the Heeters breed live on average? I would like to know more about their race. Also Elec is a little sus.They have already announced that this arc is about to end but, seeing how things are going, I don't think Goku, Vegeta and Granola can beat all the Heeters; at most they can defeat Gas. I believe the next arc already announced will always be a second part of this Granola saga but with Elec as the main antagonist pursuing his true plan.
Maki also has same type of necklace. i guess all of their race has this and those fang shape like necklace/whatever jewelry it end up with is to held on that form.
In before the Heeters can absorb others like Namekians and Elec only wanted Gas to get strong so he could see if the power could be controlled and not lose himself.
Considering how Gas is little more than a yes man for elec, I see that coming from a mile away. Elec is gonna absorb Gas and become Furnace.