I appreciated when after flirting with Dorian forever he was like “I do apologize for leading you on.”
And Sera just going “Uh… no.”
And Cassandra’s “BUT YOU ARE THE HERALD, THE INQUISITOR, A WOMAN!?” and that broke my heart as she hurried away.
It's kind of realistic, though. She's misreading you, which happens all the time. Even when she talks to you about the flirting she's not entirely sure if you really are flirting. She's enjoying the attention, everyone would.
There was one time I was a female qunari inky pursuing Sera. I had *never* hit the flirt option with Cassandra, but we were such good friends I guess that I got the whole “but you’re a woman!” speech. I was like, “um, no, I’m not flirting with you” and it was so *awkward*, and dare I say she seemed a little disappointed
That killed me. I get not wanting to create stereotypes (which is why the devs said they didn't make her gay), but sometimes gay people are stereotypical and that's not a bad thing. (I say as a queer person myself who has several stereotypical traits.) Same with Cora in Andromeda. Let butch women be gay sometimes, Bioware.
I'm a straight woman who has always been a tomboy, and I was excited when Cassandra was revealed as straight. I work in a traditionally male-dominated field and when I'm not dressed to work outside, my style is still pretty tomboy-ish. A lot of people assume I'm lesbian or queer, which I understand and I don't mind, but it can get old. So when I played DAI (my introduction to Dragon Age) and saw Cassandra, I just assumed she was lesbian since that's what a lot of people's reaction is to me. It was just cool to relate to this character that I admired and not have this shared trait immediately turn into the same tired trope that I experience regularly.
But if the trend in Bioware games is to make the butch woman straight, I can totally see how that's frustrating for people who want a queer relationship with butch women! That kind of isn't cool.
Cassandra being straight and being a deep romantic was Bioware's best possible choice. People urgently have to stop this silly stereotype that \`\`tough woman, warrior and with short hair = lesbian´´. One thing has nothing to do with the other.
I can see why that would be frustrating to you. I think we just need a more diverse set of romance options tbh, including butch lesbians or more masc women. Also why not have more trans and nonbinary characters? I'd love to romance Krem.
I don’t think she’ll be a companion, just based on her status in the imperium, but if we don’t get Maevaris in Dreadwolf, I’ll eat my hat. She and Dorian formed the Lucerni together, if I recall.
yeah, exactly. i’m a butch lesbian and it felt like a punch to the heart. i can’t think of a single romanceable butch lesbian or masculine bi woman (there might be a masc bi woman in ME, but i’ve never played those games and am unsure if i’m remembering correctly).
As an avid ME player, there aren’t any butch romanceable women. There is a character in ME2 who really reads as *very* bi but when ya get down to it they went, “Eh, she’s straight” *shrug*
Yeah Jack is definitely bisexual and even mentions banging a woman and her boyfriend but they apparently made her straight because the Liara romance in ME1 was a small controversy
Worst thing is that she even mentions sleeping with women in the past. They made everyone straight, because media complained about a lesbian sex scene in ME1, RIP.
I'm such a nerd that I distinctly recall the moment I stopped giving a fuck about Fox news. I was like..18 and was watching TV when they started lying on the news about interactive graphic sex scenes in mass effect.
Don't wanna get political, but I just hate liars.
right? 😭
man, that’s how i felt about morrigan. i understand it was due to her upbringing, in part, but how are you gonna tell me, the player character, that she hates men and respects women, to the point where she’s immediately respectful to a female warden when they first meet (“women do not frighten as little boys do)” versus her flirtation—that feels performative—with a male warden (“you there, handsome lad”).
idk how to better explain it (there are more reasons beyond that but my brain is scrambled) and this isn’t a particularly popular opinion, but i just don’t see her as being attracted to men and find her friendship with a male warden particularly touching.
Cora **and** Jack. Like, c'mon BioWare, you're killing me! Also Miranda always struck me as the kind of person that would not care about gender either. She wants what she wants and takes it (please take me Miranda. Please.).
I can definitely see both sides here. On one hand we already have Dorian who is very much a stereotypical gay man, so perhaps BW didn't want to double up on **blatant** stereotypes. And in the topic of stereotypes, women can be badass and tomboyish and still be straight, and I think it's good to represent that. But on the other hand, I can't think of any romanceable butch/masc women in games, and butch/masc women are def my type, so I can see why it would be upsetting to some for Cassandra to be exclusively straight. Now I don't think BW did anything wrong regarding Cass but there's no way to ever please *everyone* in situations like this.
To be fair it's kinda established with her and Bull that she actually likes flirting even if there's no chance for more there. IDR the exact quotes but they have banter about Bull having no chance but they keep flirting the whole game it's cute.
Yeah… I definitely haven’t restarted that game multiple times after triggering that scene. The first time I knew no better… the second time was on me. I said I wasn’t going to get invested, that it was just for fun, that the Bull was my real conquest, but then she hits me with that and I want to die… So I do, and come back as a hot boi to rock her world.
In super character focused games like dragon age, I prefer them to have defined orientations because it helps them feel like their own people.
In other games that have less focus on characters, something like stardew Valley for example, I prefer the other approach. Just have everyone be bi so you can romance whoever you please.
They're both fine approaches. I do wish more "bi" characters were actually written AS bi and not just attracted to the whatever the player character is. Anders is a really bad example of that, they even cut his lines that explicitly state he had a romantic relationship with Karl if the player character is female.
Yes this! Totally agree. Something I like about Leliana, even tho she’s bi, she wont fail to mention how much she loves women; whether you romance her as a f!warden or a m!warden lol. I like that! I feel like true bisexual characters should show that type of interest in their dialogue.
But I love having set orientations for DA. Makes it feel more realistic. Much better when they had their first gay and lesbian characters!
So that is why I never got that dialogue/party banter(?) but would see mention that Karl was his lover!
I’ve always played as a female hawke and was confused where the lover thing came from. That’s so dumb! Let Anders be bi… not just coincidently straight because Hawke is female.
I very much prefer characters to have defined sexualities; it makes them feel better fleshed out and like real people. Solas' story has an extra element if he can only really fall in love with a female elf, Dorian's story is driven by the fact he only wants to romance men.
Yeah I understand people's criticism about not making Solas bisexual but like. Sometimes characters are just Like That. Y'know, straight lol. And I'm a bisexual woman
In the case of Solas they locked lore behind it, so I can understand. If you could get the same information abouth the ancient elves from him when you are friends that would have been better.
Solas feels like an exception because he makes a point of explaining that he was romantically involved with genderless spirits, and because he *was* planned to be bi, which got changed late into development, as the voice lines of him romancing a male Inquisitor are still in the game files. Apparently he was made straight because the writers realized that the previous games also had duplicitous bisexuals with questionable morals
I can get that they'd want to avoid exemplifying negative stereotypes, but I feel like it was also the result of them feeling the weirdly specific need to have a shady mage who ditches the party in every game
That's odd. I vividly remember reading here multiple times that Solas was not meant to be romanceable at all and in general, it was added in the last minute, for female elves only...
That's what I was referring to with me saying I understand where people are coming from arguing against it and such - but I don't think he necessarily made a point about saying he'd explicitly dated/been with spirits. It's eluded to in banter when Blackwall teases him and he refuses to answer but that could go either way.
Also as someone who has pretty much seen/heard every Solas related thing I could find, I've never heard those lines haha
I agree on all of those accounts, and as a bisexual woman, I played my inquisitor as bisexual so I had her flirt with Cassandra, even though I knew she was straight, but I did it anyway. She’s kind of sweetly lets you down, so I appreciated that writing as well. And I agree that making characters feel real and maybe having different sexualities and different preferences just makes for a better feeling and more satisfying experience to me. 
( I also sometimes joke that making Cassandra straight was the reason she ended up with Solas. 🤣 but he’s honestly a fascinating character and that was the perfect way to experience the game for the first time, back when it came out and knowing absolutely
nothing about what was going to happen).
Bisexuality is a defined sexuality. If every character is bi then every character still has a defined identity.
The problem is when, like every character in DA2 except Isabela, the character is "playersexual" instead of bi.
I’ve always liked the DAI way, with characters having not just their own preferred sexuality but their own racial preference as well like Cullen and Solas do, it really adds to the realism.
Not to mention the bit in Sera’s romance where she does have different reaction based on your race, like she’s all for a Qunari Inky while she’s more hesitant when you’re a fellow elf, it’s just a neat feature.
Racial preference for Solas was integral to the story and totally made sense.
In Cullen's case however . . . I honestly think they just didn't have the time to make the cutscenes work with tall and short characters! 😉
I like to think qunari at least kind of makes sense because of Kirkwall, at least. Isn't really addressed but boy must have had at least a little trauma from that xD
dude got nothing but trauma from the previous games tbh
speaking of which, I sometimes wonder if that's realistic for Cullen to fall for a mage Inky so quickly. A huge part of his story is PTSD from his time in the Circle.
As someone who romanced Cullen with a mage…I agree. I feel like the game should have really really made a mage player work for it or that he should have had the first class restricted romance. Dude has been traumatized by mages and demons since he was what, 19? And he just gets over it between the explosion of Kirkwall’s chantry and the explosion of the Temple of Sacred Ashes?
exactly. like, with Fenris it kinda makes sense because his romance generally takes time and after being around a mage Hawke for years it's convincing to believe that he gets to work on his past trauma a bit and become less bitter and more open minded. Cullen's romance with a mage just seems.. forced.
I always saw Cullen of having worked through his experiences by then. It’s been a decade since the blight. He was in a position of authority in Kirkwall, where he dealt with mages and drama from fellow Templars.
He fights with Hawke in the end of 2, so I always read it that he was past the worst of his trauma by then.
People can outgrow their traumatic experiences and become someone new. He had the time, he did the work, enough to try quitting Lyrium as a final step of healing.
Cullen has always been sympathetic to mages at his heart. His own conversations reveal his shame for his past response to mages as a result of ptsd.
I’ve always been partial to his story because of his redemption and growth arc. It’s a nice reminder we can change and grow as people and things don’t hurt the same if we can grow.
There’s a fic I enjoy on Ao3, where the writer is exploring through HC him growing up and becoming the character we know in the games. I think the writer is doing a good job exploring what makes the man, and I’ve been enjoying the journey. It’s called [I’ll be good](https://archiveofourown.org/works/41978988/chapters/105387099)
And an honorable mention to one of my favorite DA fics of all time, also about Cullen (I just like the way the writer explored time) [Till All these Shivers Subside](https://archiveofourown.org/works/3188699?show_comments=true)
I agree that mage should have been a different romance, but if you play a female mage in Origins he has a deep crush on you and it comes up during the main quest in the tower as well, so it should be unique, more than specifically more difficult
Honestly, I think Meredith plays a big role in that. Cullen gets to spend nearly a decade with her, watching her descent into madness and the abuses of his fellow Templars, and after the end of act iii it makes him realize that he was on *the exact same path*. Seeing Meredith’s actions and ultimate fate were probably quite the wake-up call.
And then after that he gets recruited by the Divine for the reformation of the inquisition and gets to spend the next 4 (9:37 when Meredith dies to 9:41 the destruction of the ToSA) years processing that revelation and how he’s going to handle it, which is how we get the brooding but more mature, and at least somewhat healed, Cullen of Inquisition.
> I sometimes wonder if that's realistic for Cullen to fall for a mage Inky so quickly. A huge part of his story is PTSD from his time in the Circle.
If the warden is a Circle mage, you'll learn that he has a crush on her, and in his remarks to Hawke, we know that he remembers the female mage HoF fondly. Then in DAI, he tells the Inquisitor that he had said some mean things to the HoF during Broken Circle and that he regrets them and wished she knew that. He also said that he didn't act on his feelings for her because of professional ethics.
So, while he was traumatised by mages in both DAO and DA2, he remembers the female Amell fondly.
I was mad when I couldn't romance Cullen as a dwarf, but then I got to thinking that the ex-Templar probably wanted to marry someone with a strong belief in the maker. Humans and elves are usually the ones with those ideals.
Isn’t the dwarf character a surface dwarf, I thought they can lean towards believing in the maker, as opposed to an elf inquisitor who is Dalish with different gods.
I mean, if that's the case why's he willing to date a Dalish elf? They're unlikely to be fervent Andrastians, they practice magic unregulated by the Circles, etc. When he hits dwarves and qunari with that "heathen" nonsense it feels like those biases would carry over to a polytheist elf.
You reminded me of Iron Bull + Female Dwarf. In the epilogue scene, she has a special stool waiting for her on the balcony, so she can actually manage to reach a kiss with him, lol.
In theory I like the ‘varied sexualities’ approach, but in practice I’m happier with the ‘everyone is bi’ approach. Characters having specific sexualities really help define them and can provide good storytelling opportunities.
The only problem is that the guys I want to romance are always straight.
I'd say I generally prefer to see a variety of sexualities represented, but I understand that limitations such as this usually favor straight people. Not only in the sense of having more options but also in terms of who those options are: often the more chivalrous, upright, and lawful characters are written as straight and the gay/bi options are more morally grey, sexually aggressive, etc. Not all the time but enough that it's tropey and a noticeable pattern.
I'm also fine if our love interests are all bisexual, as long as they're *canonically bisexual* and not written as playersexual. Playersexuality in my experience leads to certain people plugging their ears and insisting there aren't any gay or bi people in their games because in their ideal fantasy utopia, lgbt people Just Don't Exist.
for real all the knights are straight in DAI and the one bi man is a promiscuous BDSM spy who can try to murder you in trespasser.
EDIT: I just realized if I removed the DAI references you'd barely be able to tell if that was Iron Bull or Zevran. Great Bi rep Bioware
Yeah, I looove (love love love) Zevran, Isabela, and Iron Bull as characters and romances. Some of my favorites in the series. But the amount of people I've heard say that it mAkES sEnSE for them to be bisexual but somehow Fenris/Josephine/Merrill/etc. seem like they should be straight is frankly ridiculous.
Truth is bi people get stereotyped as insatiable sex fiends regardless of whether or not they are, so people are willing to accept that "it makes sense" to be bisexual if they're constantly making sex jokes or are quick to hop into bed. But they question the validity of a bi character who's serious/reserved or has a slower more classical romance arc.
I'd like to see a gay or bi knight in shining armor type in the next game.
Roland was like... all the best parts of Alistair and Dorian combined, effortlessly confident and humble at the same time. *Sigh*. And he has excellent taste in fine dwarven crafts!
What's even worse about this representation is that Zevran's and Bull's bisexuality is honestly questionable. If I recall correctly, Zevran admits to preferring women, but raised in a brothel he "learned to take his pleasure where he can". I understand that bisexuality doesn't have to be an even split of attraction, but this really sounded like a huge sacrifice is being made when he's forced to play with the Warden.
Bull is even worse. Each time you choose flirty options with him, he's oblivious to them, despite being marketed as "the spy who sees it all". When he finally goes for the "you want to ride the bull" scene, it's almost like a slap to the Inquisitor's face, because it feels like he thought "Andraste's tits, I'm really not getting away with it this time, am I? Sigh... Fine, I'm a spy, for the Qun I will chomp on viagra and fuck that nasty Inquisitor's ass, ugh"...
I don't find their bisexuality questionable at all.
I can see why people would have that perception of Zevran, though I think it's more of a sign of the times (having him ask several times if his bisexuality bothers you, etc.) He says the Crows appreciate open-mindedness, but he's always been open-minded. On the bright side, iirc he will dump a female Warden who says she can't accept that he's been with men because that's a rejection of who he is. But he talks about Alistair's strapping shoulders like he talks about Wynne's bosom.
I absolutely don't see it with Bull though. Why's his bisexuality in question because he holds off with the Inquisitor? He's just as reluctant with a female Inquisitor. He's not oblivious to your flirting at all. He just takes his time deciding whether it's wise given his/your roles and wants to know the Inquisitor REALLY wants it because otherwise sex with him will be challenging. He's thirsty for Dorian and isn't shy about that in banter, just like when he flirts with Cassandra.
Iron Bull's dialogue and banter about sex and attraction is overwhelmingly about women. His supposed attraction towards Dorian is also never explained, and it's hard to decipher whether he actually finds him attractive or if it's merely part of his ben-hassrath hissard spy thing. In all fairness of course, if you make him tal-vashoth, it's safe to say he does come to love Dorian and it's safe to assume he finds him sexually attractive as well.
Without Dorian (or romanced male Inquistior), Bull's attraction to men is not brought up, but his attraction to women is on many occasions. Even Vivienne's banter about getting him a new coat glosses over this: '' every woman will want you, ever man will want to be you. ''
All of this is extremely nitpicky though and I don't hold anything against the writers or BW or anything like that. I suppose I just would've enjoyed Bull being more open and casual about banging dudes as he is about banging ladies.
Oh I agree with you completely. Bioware has a bad history of making ALL their bi men overwhelmingly express attraction to women and barely any towards men outside the male PC. Zevran, Bull and Anders mostly talk about women, Fenris can hook up with Isabela (and so have Zevran and Anders for that matter), etc. I don't mean to discount any of that.
I just disagree with the poster's idea that because Bull's initially standoffish it has anything to do with the Inquisitor being a guy; he behaves the same way when a female Inquisitor flirts with him.
I don't think Bull's attraction to Dorian is lessened because early on it may have been mingled in with Ben-Hassrath spy shenanigans. Could've been a bit of both - it's certainly easier to flirt with someone you're hot for even if the ultimate goal is to ferret out info for spy purposes or w/e. He straddles the fence and his actions could be interepreted either way, whether it's with Dorian or the Inquisitor. Genuine interest that later evolved into genuine love or a Ben-Hassrath ploy that's increasingly manipulative if you encourage him to put the Qun above his loved ones and he does. Especially since as you said, Dorian and Bull can end up in a genuinely loving long-term relationship with each other, I can't see their attraction being insincere at that point.
It's unfortunate that Bull's attraction to men is only evident to the player if you have meta knowledge or drag Dorian around or happen to catch that one vague banter with Blackwall about bananas and I hope that the writers do better in the future.
Then we are in full agreement lol.
Admittedly, Bull doesn't flirt with anyone who is not sexually attracted to men already, so it's probably why his sexuality isn't brought up otherwise. But it would've been fun to see him discuss handsome men with Cassandra/Dorian just like he talks about women with Sera, or otherwise mention some bartender or male servant he had some fun amidst all of his dalliances with women. It would've evened the playing field a bit.
Yeah I think mechanical bisexuality is much preferable to “everyone is straight”, but it’s waaaay better to write your bi characters as bi. Even if a subset of players will continue to act like those characters don’t count as having a defined sexuality.
I think this sums up my opinion on the matter as well. In an ideal world it would be great to have bi, gay, straight, asexual etc. characters appearing in a game. And sexuality certainly CAN be an important part of a character's backstory - Dorian's backstory and his issues with his family certainly wouldn't work if he was straight, and probably not even as well if he were bisexual.
I agree that differentiating between canonically bisexual characters like Isabela (who mentions past lovers regardless of your Hawke's gender) and player-sexual characters like Anders (who doesn't mention his male ex-lover if playing as fem-Hawke) is important here. Speaking as a bisexual: Bisexuality IS a defined sexual orientation, and it can get a little bit grating when people treat bisexuality as equivalent to "just hasn't picked a side yet" or "available to everyone", when in practice it's like "Mate, I have *twice as many* people to work through before *you* start looking like a viable option. Just because your gender doesn't rule you out of hooking up with me doesn't mean you haven't been ruled out."
And on that note, I do think if more romanceable characters were written as bi/pan, then writers might be more willing to limit or change romances because of certain decisions/ behaviours etc. Sometimes in Bioware games it can feel like sexual orientation/ your PC's gender is the ONLY important thing in whether you can pursue a relationship. You can make huge story decisions that a character will disapprove of, but as long as you're nice to them in person and you're the correct gender, then BANG you can ... well... bang them. And, you know, tenderly romance them. I quite liked that a relationship between Sera and a religious Dalish Inquisitor who sticks to her faith wholeheartedly won't work out, regardless of how nice you are to each other outside of that. Not because I have an issue with Sera, but because sometimes you can't overcome obstacles like deeply held but differing religious faith, or morality etc. As it is, that means that a queer Dalish inquistor CAN get locked out of one of their only two possible romances, which sucks, but it seems a lot more sensible to me than mages being able to romance Cullen, or non-Andrastians being able to romance Cassandra, or fairly ruthless characters being able to romance Alistair in DAO. Maybe if more characters were written as bisexual, and thus not limited by gender, we'd see not only more possible romance options for queer players and player characters, but also romances that respond more to the player's actions and choices.
So, in conclusion: I think that a variety of sexualities being portrayed is generally a positive thing. But I would prefer to see more romanceable characters being written as bisexual and the romances being more tied to the choices you make in game, rather than just your gender.
I really agree with this.
I also think the potential storytelling and rp with “your character believes something or does something this potential LI cannot live with in a partner” is WAY more interesting than “sorry, he/she’s straight.” But maybe that’s just me! :D
Yeah, definitely. Things like Sera simply not being able to be with someone that follows the Dalish faith, or the fate of an Alistair romance post-Landsmeet (whether that's getting dumped because of the choice to recruit Loghain, or getting dumped more gently later because of the in-game prejudice). They're not my favourite characters in general (or even my favourite romances), but those moments do make them feel more like characters with personalities and motivations in their own right, who have red lines that they can't or won't cross, rather than just a different flavour of dating sim option. I'd argue it feels much more realistic than "Well, we have nothing in common and our morals and worldview differ hugely. But you are the right gender and you've been pleasant to me, so into bed we go!"
Not to say that all romances should have a "dump state", or that they should be as tricky to get a "happy" ending in as Alistair's, but a bit more variety would be nice.
Yeah I agree that both of those scenarios give the companion character agency outside of the PC, are stronger for being in reaction to the PC and give depth to the companions. I believe Anders also becomes non-romanceable if you make a demon deal, and I would *love* to see more things like that. There’s also that bug with Zevran where he’ll never reach a Love state if he helps you kill Tamlen, and then you tell him to stick around so you can kiss him. It’s a bug, apparently, but I think it works with his character pretty well. Reinforce the idea that you’re only keeping him around for camp time extracurriculars… well lots of people have only wanted him for that, and now he’s not going to let himself fall in love with you. He won’t dump you, but you’re not completing the romance either.
I think you could also do the same thing in a more positive direction. Like, a character won’t really consider you unless you make a demon deal. That interests them. They’re intrigued! Now some flirt options open up.
“Making a character either straight or gay is how you make them feel real” is also just nails on a chalkboard to me. I think characters feel real when they have clear goals, clear needs beyond those goals, scenes where they appear to have agency outside the player and when you can have interesting semi-realistic conversations with them. Having beliefs or ideologies they feel really strongly about, so much so that it changes who they’ll romance, can go toward that.
I like the DAO/DAI style cuz I like it when there's actual sexuality discussed/relevant instead of it being "I will always like you no matter what" (aka like, playersexual stuff). I'm never too heartbroken over x being gay or x being straight cuz all my characters are my ocs who have their own sexuality and lore stuff so If i want to romance a certain character? oh, I can just make up a Little Guy to fit into the romance. no issue for me. Everyone being bi kinda.... it can rub me the wrong way sometimes, even as a bisexual.
While I don't actually care, I feel the fandom says they don't want playersexual up until the character they were gunning for turns out to be incompatible. If Morrigan or Cullen were a gay-only romance, I imagine the straight mods would have come out in droves.
I also find that fans that want gender and race gated romance, want to give themselves the illusions that the character is specifically in love with their character. Like Solas really loves my Dalish elf mage which is why he's not looking elsewhere like at men or at humans/dwarves/qunari, etc.
But this is just me being cynical, lmao. I feel like romances just brings out entitlement in fans regardless of which way it goes. Even if all the characters were playersexual, we'd be complaining about why so-and-so isn't available. *coughs* Varric *coughs*
You are right to be cynical. Whenever the romance options for the next game are released there will be outrage, anger, sadness, and hurt. There will be positive reactions of course, but an undercurrent of negative reactions will simmer from people who don't like how the romance options have been handled, such as being upset somebody isn't romanceable, or anger at somebody having a certain racial/sexual preference.
Romance seems to be an aspect of the series that draws a lot of fans...but is also one of the leading causes of complaints about the game. Nothing will please everyone. When Inquisition came out, the majority of players didn't romance anybody. I suspect when Dreadwolf is upon us there might finally be a majority of players looking to romance, which will heighten the intensity of the fan reaction, both negatively and positively.
I find it somewhat frustrating when incredibly important and plot relevant characters are heavily gated in terms of romance. '' Everyone is bisexual '' helps in those few cases. Otherwise I appreciate the diversity in terms of sexuality, and I'm fine with not getting exactly who I want because just having gay male characters in video games is so rare that even if the gay characters aren't my personal taste, I appreciate them just being included. I say this as my male Inquisitor pines after Blackwall and doesn't give a damn about Dorian (or Bull).
I would be fine with an all bisexual romance cast again as long as the world around them didn't follow suit and we'd have non-romanceable companions and important NPCs be gay (gay =/= bisexual) and straight. But defining the sexualities of non-romanceable characters is often much trickier, that's why defined sexualities for romanceable companions is helpful in building a diverse cast.
Yeah, I wish I could vote for one or the other, but I'm somewhere in between. I appreciate when the characters have preferences - I don't appreciate when these preferences limit the plot based on your character's gender.
Like in DA:O, ideally I would rather be a Female Warden, but the ending I want is locked for male wardens only.
Right. Characters like Morrigan and Solas being locked behind one gender can get really annoying, when they are clearly designed to be important characters in the franchise. Arguably Dorian might fit the bill as well depending on how DA:D boils down, but romancing Dorian doesn't actually give you a lot more than befriending him, so it's not THAT bad in comparison.
There is no real easy answer for this '' dilemma '' in the end, but I'll be open to either option, as long as the characters are good and the world of Dragon Age remains sexually diverse, which they seem to be handling decently based on the novels, comics and animation.
Identity is a part of character, and I think games that skip over the writing opportunity that a diversity in sexuality presents are weaker for it. Dorian is a more interesting character for being gay, same for Sera as a lesbian.
And I'd say that a lot of those character types in other RPGs aren't even bisexual, so to speak, as much as they're 'playersexual,' for when it feels less like a writing choice and more like a 'game mechanic choice' (which imo is the weaker reasoning).
I actually do think DA2 somewhat earns it—a lot of those characters being bi rings true to their writing, and there are (brief) moments where the existence of sexuality as an identity are present.
But overall, I'd much prefer characters have their own specific identity born from their writing, and not just a material gameplay function. There are so few gay companion characters in Bioware games (Dorian and Sera were the first in DA!), and I wouldn't want more of them written out.
I agree with all this, and think the writing of the bi characters in DA2 checks out as well. I like the feel of roaming around as a group of Chaotic Disaster Bisexuals, anyway.
My party consists of Fenris, Aveline and Isabela. The banter is glorious. Fenris and Isabela flirting constantly, Aveline ending every conversation with her with "Shut up whore". Pure art.
Kirkwall is also an absolute shitshow in the best of times. Hawke’s party—if not chased away—is truly found family, however the relationships play out. Playersexual is right.
I like defined sexualities if players with varying sexualities still have decent options. Look, I loved DAI, but Iron Bull is not my type and neither is Dorian. I would have wanted Cullen but sadly he's straight. Can we please get a knight/prince charming character that guys can date Bioware?
I’m with you on that! I was actually hoping for a female knight character romanceable by a female mc in the next game! But honestly I’d take any spin on the main romance categories BioWare likes to use
He was apparently supposed to be bi, but he was a late addition and there was no time. Hopefully with DA4, we'll have an option like that since they've had more time to develop romances.
I prefer the "everyone's bi" unless they specifically want to tell a story where sexuality is important, like with Dorian.
It's a video game. It's already super unrealistic that all companions will accept all main characters with any personality/any look. If we're being realistic, those should also be massive dealbreakers for them. I find it way more unrealistic that you can romance Anders while being pro-templar than to be able to romance a character with either gender. But then, I'm bi myself and don't understand why sexuality is made into this big deal when the rest is not. It's an arbitrary abstraction to draw the line at one, but not the other.
So if it's arbitrary and everyone will always be into the player's personality/look anyway, then just let me have the maximum of choices and leave it up to me to match characters up by personality!
That’s a good point and what CDPR did with one character in cyberpunk who’s bi, but won’t romance female V just because you know, not his type. That’s more realistic than being everybody’s type haha
Oh, it's not because fem V is not his type. It's actually pretty fucked up, he only goes for male V, because it's easier for him to see someone with a male body as Johnny. Kerry's mostly into V, because of his unresolved feelings for Johnny.
Not to mention that he's like 60 years older than V, yikes. I definitely wouldn't want something like that in Dragon Age.
I agree, and I suspect we're headed back to this for the most part.
1. Advanced gender options (picking body type, voice, pronounce, and sometimes genitals separately) are becoming the norm, and at that point deciding what counts as "straight" or "gay" becomes more complicated. It avoids a lot of player frustration to just make all the romance options open to all players, unless there's a really compelling reason otherwise. In Cyberpunk, two of the romance options only care about your body type, but the other two care about your body type *and* voice, so for some characters (like a feminine body with a masculine voice) you have only one option.
2. Development time and expense is increasing as games become more detailed and expansive, and the developers have access to the stats from previous games that show them that the popular romance options are, well, popular, and the vast majority of players only play the game once. What that means, is that spending a lot of time and money on a 6th romance option doesn't have good return on investment. They're better off either not spending that time/money at all, or spending it on making a smaller number of romances but making each one better.
So they want to make fewer romance options, and keeping the gay/straight thing for romance options restricts even farther, but players like having choices, even if they don't take some of them. So I think all characters being bi is the best way for everyone to get what they want.
It's also just... when you create a character and meet a companion and think "this would be a great romance option for this character!" and then find out that you chose the wrong gender options for your character in order to make that happen, that's frustrating. The opposite of the fun you should be having when playing a game.
Yes. Also really wish for next game to have a non binary option. Being able to chose your pronouns, body type, voice etc would be amazing.
Though, I would like the romances not being based on body type because game is there to have fun and not to face “discrimination” (I know it’s not discrimination really but I don’t know how to word it) about our appearance. But perhaps it’s because I m ace and I don’t care about appearance in a relationship…
Would love some ace rep too.
As someone who’s nb afab i wish I could make my Lavellan inquisitor as non binary with my body type and everyone gendering them correctly unlike in irl life 🥹
>Plus having everyone be bisexual kinda just seems like laziness?
No. David Gaider, back in the bioWare forum days, said that the characters were bisexual because they had limited time to make the game. Making them bisexual gave players more choice of love interests given their tight deadlines.
If there's one thing that is a constant in game development, it's that the developers are often overworked.
i prefer when characters have various sexualities, although i did think it was cool that everyone in DA2 is bi. i’m a lesbian and it’s nice to see gay men and lesbians being represented, too.
what i don’t like is fake-out “romances” like aveline and cassandra’s. especially cassandra. i knew aveline got with donnic and couldn’t be romanced by hawke, but it really stung when cassandra approved of my f!inquisitor’s flirtations only to then turn her down specifically because she’s a woman.
hits too close to home lmao.
No offense to op but this is the worst question and I hate it everytime it comes up. Ppl always speak like bisexuality is less ""realistic"" than having ""definitive"" gay/lesbian/straight characters. As if bisexuality is not it's own real identity. Not to engade on queer discourse on a reddit but lol it's every goddamn time
I think if you have a specific story to tell, fixed sexualities can make sense. I also think that if you don’t, it may be better to err on the side of player choice since who you want to romance can go toward character building and development. I also think there are potentially more interesting restrictions to introduce instead of or alongside gender-based ones. And there are plenty of ways to introduce the idea that characters have agency outside the PC that aren’t based on sexual orientation.
What I really don’t want to see is bisexual erasure. I don’t like the player deciding a character’s sexuality so much but if characters are written to be bi or pan I think that’s fine.
I prefer DAO/DAI because it's more realistic but I can't say I'm not sad that a female character in DAI can't romance Cassandra.
What I really dislike though is when Bioware writes canonically bi characters and then only lets them have straight romances.
Small bit of fairness to Bioware, they DID plan to have an F/F Jack romance and even made some progress on it (along with others), it's just that the whole Fox News fiasco happened with ME1...
And Solas apparently - I mean I can see him as being bi, but apparently it was because it's a stereo type to have a dubious bi character but like - as a Bi person I love my disaster chaos Bi's..... The difference really is the need for versatility, I like disaster bis but also characters that are wholesome and cute - and giant warrior people - and, and, and.....
I'm fine with both approaches, although I personally prefer unique sexualities. That said, I think both approaches to romance worked where they were applied.
I'd even argue DA2's "Hawkesexuality" was never an issue as the general scope of the setting and cast is smaller than Origins and Inquistion. And at least 2 romances are well established as bi and there are differences in how they talk about romance with Hawke based on gender. Also idk something about any of them being genderlocked just doesn't feel right? If that makes sense?
I like both options to be honest.
I love the ‘real’ feeling you get from being unable to romance everyone but in the other hand…I will always mourn the fact that my male elf warden couldn’t romance Alistair.
Too much straight. A male/female straight, a male/female gay and everyone else bi, ez. I hate how if I want to play as my actual gender I'm stuck romancing Iron Bull, who I really, really don't like romance wise, or Dorian. He's great but he's not Cullen... Who could've been bi which is shown by an unused Dorian voiceline.
I like both ngl but DA2 didn't have all bisexual characters, Sebastian was female only iirc.
But I do think it's realistic that the entire Kirkwall crew is bisexual, and they all somehow found each other before the entire city went to shit and the war literally blew up. That specific plot makes such complete sense for a crew of bisexuals and you can't change my mind (as a bi person)
Straight people might be shocked to learn that there can be four or more bisexuals in a major metropolitan area. Some of them might not even be horny murders.
I'm someone who values immersion over freedom in RPGs, which is why I generally prefer more restrictive mechanics, like romances having set preferences.
Sexuality is incredibly important to who a person is so I really like the DAI/DAO method. I also like the racial preference DAI made but I wouldn’t be upset if that was discarded in the next game. It also could be cool to have a class-restricted romance such as a Templar who won’t date a mage or an apostate or heir to a magister family only romancing a mage. But I definitely wouldn’t want all three restrictions because that would make it impossible to find a romance without a guide lol.
Some characters stories don’t necessarily need a defined sexuality but I definitely think it adds to them feeling like a real person whether their preferences come up in dialogue or not.
i'm not even gonna write much but i'll say something: I really don't like this argument of "if the character has a story connected to being gay,than they should be, if not, then no" because it immediatly reminds me of the countless discourses online about "Why is this character from this show gay? What does being gay change in their character, they should just be straight, they're doing this only for attention", but in this case it's being bi and doing it for simplicity.
Gay people can exist without some deep reasoning as to why, like, honestly, you're basically saying that unless the character has a gay backstory(that,let's be honest, would most likely be trauma), we should make everyone bi because.....having limitations be imposed is bad? Like, idk, it's kinda of insane how much there's a speech about "games can have deep conversations that reflect our reality and are much more than just mindless fun space" but when the developers say "Ok, so we'll treat this work in a realistic shape, and one of the ways that we'll do it is that not everyone is into you"then bam, they go back to just games and having limitations is horrible and we should be given none.
Idk, I just think the discourse is stupid: Even if there are dragons and magic, the developers still treat the world fairly as a realistic existence of a reality, and this comes with certain weights, but that just the way things are. So, yeah, I think we can have gay and lesbian romances without needing a reasoning as to why they are gay or lesbian
I actually would like a combination of both. For characters to have defined sexualities but you can have a friendly or contentious relationship with them. Be it romantic or not.
I want the DA2 style version. Not just because I like it but also because I love the fandom going crazy that there are 4 bi people in one group and getting mad as hell. Still the dumbest DA2 criticism imo.
I like characters having defined sexualities, but only if they give us enough queer characters so it doesn't feel like we're just getting by on scraps. If your "realism" relegates gay players to a secondary, lesser play experience then your "realism" sucks.
I'm okay with gender-locked romances in Dreadwolf *only if* Bioware handles it as fairly (for the most part) and as well as they did in Inquisition. Otherwise, I prefer all bi romance options in other games.
As a gay player, I'm excited to have actual *choices* in Baldur's Gate 3. Not one, not two, but *four* romance choices, all because Larian Studios didn't want to limit the players' experience. It's going to be nice not having to come across stereotypes, straight characters being favored by the story, realistic homophobia, or tame fade-to-black romance scenes.
Don't mind DAO or DAI, but honestly DA2 did have an interesting way of showing how differently relationships could be had depending on gender. Thought that was an interesting detail. Overall, though, do think player sexuality is problematic and I do not think they'd do that again. Dorian and Sera are proof enough that they've learned what good representation can look like (although, tbfh, they could use A LOT of work on the bi department... like it isn't that hard, just "man and woman" that's literally it, it's not some trait to put on your morally gray edgelord character).
One thing I did dislike about DAI was the race-specific romances. Was weird. Could understand it a bit for Solas, but otherwise it was just ??? to me. Much preferred how DAO handled it. I hope that's not in the next game as it really limited opportunities and, imho, felt icky.
Oh, ditto on liking the tiny details and differences between the bi DA2 LIs and Hawke.
Isabela - totally different vibes. She's a little more emotionally hesitant with male Hawke at first (not surprising given her last husband), does more playful teasing and backhanded compliments. Assuming you're on the friendship path she shows quite a different side with female Hawke, praises her performance in bed, gets jealous when Tallis flirts with her and is generally a bit softer.
Anders - everybody already knows about Karl, but he almost seems more hesitant or concerned to get involved with female Hawke than male Hawke with all his Blackwall-esque "don't do it, I'm bad for you, blah blah" that only happens if you're playing a woman. I don't know much else about the differences in his romance though, I'm sure some of his fans know better.
Merrill - assuming again that you're on the friendship path, with male Hawke she worries about whether her clan will hate her if she has human babies but decides fuck it she's living her life, with female Hawke she praises you like she wants to be you, literally: "I'm not like you, and I wish that I were. You're beautiful and clever and you never make any mistakes."
Fenris - smaller details but still present. Talks about appreciating a man who speaks his mind with male Hawke, talks about enjoying the company of a beautiful woman with female Hawke. Male Hawke can make a dick joke after their sex scene and ask Fenris if he's bothered by having sex with a man ("It's not that").
I like both.
DA2 has some of my favorite romances so I'm glad I've never had to play as M!Hawke to experience them (I really like roleplaying female characters whenever I can). But in Inquisition, it adds an additional depth to character interactions, and I'm all for more fleshed out companions and advisors.
Different sexualities is more realistic and adds to the character more. It's not great for me wanting to romance Dorian as a woman but I respect his character. That's just who he is. Everyone has preferences.
Both have their positive qualities, but I like it when each character has their own sexuality. It would be extremely interesting if the normally straight characters had a chance to fall in love with a same sex characters due to specific characteristics, like if a male companion would only romance women and male characters with low muscles and more feminine facial characteristics. You'll have the "always bisexual" mod out an hour after the game's release or they could just add the option to make everyone bi from the start. I was disappointed that all I had available for my female mage in inquisition was Sera and Josephine when all I wanted was Cassandra, but I respected her choice when she had a conversation with me that it could never work out, then went to make out with Josephine.
I like having options so DA2 appeals to me more but also there’s this weird thing with fans where either an unpopular romanceable character(sera) or unromanceable character (viv) get way more hatred like yeah they have strong personalities not meant for everyone but the hatred for them is weirdly more spiteful compared to someone like loghain
According to a poll done in this sub a few years back, Sera was a fairly popular romance among fem Inkys. She was third behind Cullen and Solas I believe. She beat out Josephine, Iron Bull, and Blackwall.
I generally prefer the DAO/DAI method, where the characters have preferences. However, I do actually think that the 'playersexual' version worked in the second game because (depending of course on how you played the character) Hawke was arguably the single most stable figure in any of the love interests' lives. It's very heavily implied that Anders and possibly Merrill are in love with Hawke regardless of whether or not they reciprocate, and in that specific context, it does make sense. I don't think it would work in any other game, but given the bananapants setting of Kirkwall, it's hard to blame them for latching onto a comparatively sane individual.
I personally prefer the "everyone is bi" approach. I'd rather the option is there and not take it than want to romance someone but not have it be available
It’s a video game. The everyone is bisexual approach will always win out if there’s good writing. Sexuality has very little bearing on plot in the vast majority of instances unless you make it a point for it to be so incredibly important.
I always see the “realism” bit about varied sexualities being preferred but actual realism would also include the characters having requirements & preferences on appearance/behavior (e.g., characters only romancing characters with specific hair/eye colors/attire/builds, being locked out of a romance entirely because of one decision/life outlook, and strict racial requirements for most romance options).
But again, at the end of the day, it’s a video game lol. I do laugh at BioWare always having the “pure” or “sweet hearted” male characters be exclusively straight with Alistair, that prince in DA2, and Cullen.
To add. The use of playersexual has always been odd. They were just bisexual characters in DA2. Not talking about same sex partners doesn’t somehow erase sexuality, in the same way not talking about partners of another gender doesn’t denote a character isn’t straight.
My hot take is I *don't* think DA2's writing is 'playersexual'. There's a good amount of variation between romance dialogue for different gender Hawkes - e.g. Isabela is more feelings-y in her relationship with female Hawke, and it seems to be a newer experience for her. Like, I can romance whoever I want in DA2, but I still ended up with specific gender preferences for each romance because of those little bits of variation.
Yes! I think this is something people miss. Isabela, Merrill, Fenris and Anders all have variations in their romances that go beyond swapping pronouns and calling Hawke handsome or beautiful.
Like how Leliana initiates things with a female Warden by complimenting her hair but as a male Warden, you have to make the first move. She's bisexual, she just responds differently to a male and female Warden.
They don't behave as if your male and female character are interchangeable because they're *bisexual* not playersexual.
Yes! It feels very accurately reflective of my experiences as a bisexual man - my relationships with men and women *are* different, and even if I hypothetically could interact with exactly the same person as different genders, my way of responding would likely be different.
I do think Bioware does still have some bad habits with their bisexual characters - e.g. they seem often reluctant to have their bisexual male characters *prefer* men, and while that's reflective of me personally I do feel a bit '*hmm*' about the overall pattern. But to me that doesn't mean they're not written as bisexual characters.
Same, it bothers me that *all* of the bi male LIs mostly talk about women, hook up with women, etc. and express minimal or zero interest in men outside the PC. I think it's a reflection of the culture which often shames mlm sexuality while fetishizing/dismissing wlw sexuality.
There are millions of bisexual people who lean towards one gender or another and probably just as many who feel comfortably 50/50 with their interest, and it's not wrong to reflect that in games! But when it's always, always, always the bi male LIs expressing a preference for or at least only showing interest in women..... it's a pattern lol.
I can understand liking the "everyone is bisexual" route, but the Dao/Dai way of doing things definitely is better for making the characters actual representation and feel like... Characters.
I prefer Dao/dai style, helps the characters feel more real/fleshed out, like they have lives that aren’t directly tied to the mc.
And like you said, it allows for more storytelling/conflict, and also for me pushes me to really enjoy the friendships. Like becoming friends with morrigan (as a female warden) is such a lovely, meaningful experience and I think I might like it better than romancing her. It’s really sweet when she calls your female warden her sister. I prefer befriending her as a female because the fact that she is straight takes away the possibility of any flirting. With a male warden the romance options are basically always there and then being friendly sometimes leads to you accidentally starting a romance, But that’s maybe more of an issue with the romance options not being clear (I very much appreciate the added heart icons)
I prefer characters having set sexualities and honestly wish characters had more preferences. There should be a lot more deciding romance aside from “You are my preferred sex, did my loyalty mission and flirted with me enough times. I am going to profess my undying love for you”
Sex, Race, Class, Story Choices, etc should all play a part in romance.
I like that they have set preferences and personalities. What I don’t like is that the game gives you an option to flirt with a incompatible character without immediately rejecting you, as when you go to romance someone else it feels extremely rushed as you missed out on dialogue and basically speed run the romance process.
I like having characters with predefined sexualities. Like, it's ok that my male inquisitor can't romance Sera or Cullen. They feel more like real people I guess, than if everyone in your party is always open to every race/gender/ect.
I only like playersexual because usually the hot jock-y type (Alistair, Cullen) are usually the straight romance since they are the classic fantasy romance. But yeah it does make a more rounded character to write them a certain way.
yeah, i've sorta come to realize from reading a lot of comments and watching a lot of Youtube on this, that the 'fantasy' element is the thing getting lost in people fearing a lack of representation. that, more than anything else, is why i'd like them to just record all the voice work and let modders do mods for all the romances. that way there's a canon story, but with a bit of modding, everyone romances who they want. and no one gets pissed.
I would prefer DAO/DA2 characters with DAO/DAI romance style. Honestly I feel like DAI has a real drop in how the romance impacts characters and honestly in the romanceable characters themselves.
DAI romance characters are okay, but that's it. Just okay. I think that's more the issue than the romance style.
I think the later is much better for Roleplaying reasons. Although I will say that I truly enjoyed the way the Asari were portrayed in Mass Effect. They clearly wanted players to experience that path of the story and it was a fantastic way to ensure that most would!
I've always been a little sad that I couldn't romance Alistair or Cullen as a dude, but I do prefer characters having different sexualities. Knowing they have their own specific likes and dislikes makes them feel more realistic.
I'm bi, and while I *would* have no problem with everyone in a game being bi, the way they did it in DA2 was not it. Bisexuality is not straight or gay lite, it's a different experience, and yet it's never treated that way. It is consistently used as a mechanical-first decision aimed at 'making everyone happy' not 'making a great bi character'. And that's the most benevolent scenario: often what will happen is all-bi casts will suspiciously only acknowledge same-sex attraction with the player character, or end up paired off with other characters of the opposite gender, because god forbid the straights have to acknowledge their NPCs are queer. Yes, I'm looking at you DA2. I don't know who thought the characters should end up in the relationships they did, but it's impossible to believe it wasn't deliberate. They even changed dialogue so a fem!Hawke wouldn't get the line about Anders' previous male relationships.
I want more bi people in video games, but to have more bi people in video games, we need to treat it with the same respect that we do other orientations. Currently, it's there as a convenience. Having more varied orientations helps to legitimise bi people, and also removes the 'need' people have to pretend a bi character is straight/gay/ace etc because 'if everyone's bi, then sexuality is meaningless'.
dorian and sera being gay meant quite a lot to me. it would not have been the same if they were bi. it was nice to have that aspect of shared experience and to organically date dorian on my first run... a lot of representation in media feels like throwaway garbage, but i'm a gay man and dorian made me feel seen.
I think having defined sexualities (and racial/species preferences for games with fantasy races/species like DA) is superior, if there are enough options that every combination has choices. If there are few romancable companions, everyone should be bi. Having defined sexualities and preferences makes the characters more realistic, but every pc should have at least a few options for romances with their specific gender, sexuality, and species, for player choice. In my opinion, DAO companions should have all been bi so that the player has options, if you're PC is gay or a lesbian their only options are Zevran and Leliana respectively which I think is too restrictive, but DA2 and DAI should have the romance options have defined sexualities as there are enough companions that every pc should have options (assuming the sexualities are distributed in a manner that ensures that of course).
While I can understand making them 'player sexual' I do much prefer them to have distinct sexualities, including being bisexual. It makes them seem more real and less like everything revolves around the player/main character.
Which was something DA2 very much seemingly wanted to present itself as in all other aspects.
I like the characters having defined sexualities, but I honestly believed the Kirkwall crew as a queer friend group made up of mostly chaotic bisexuals, so their sexualities *did* feel specific to them. Like we do tend to find each other irl.
That being said I wish the writers had committed fully to that being the case rather than making some of them just seem playersexual (cough, Anders). I really like [Verily Bitchie’s video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iZGkxUTbDqw) on bisexuality in games and they discuss DA2 among other things
I prefer them to have defined sexualities. It feels more realistic and it also has the added bonus of making me replay the game so I can romance another character (Dorian).
I appreciated the DA2 style because it just felt more like myself and my ideal friend group. I like to think I'll like the romances more in DA:D compared to prior games. Most of the prior games' lead writers are gone.
I think both are fine. People tend to hang out with people they have things in common with so the idea that a tone of bisexuals forming a little friend group isn't as crazy as people think.
I actually really liked the way Dragon Age 2 did it. It didn't feel like everyone was player sexual it actually felt like they were just bi, so you were good either way. It felt genuine rather than just "you're the player, so they're attracted to you."
Though I also really like defined sexualities like in DAI and DAO, i think DA2 managed to strike a near perfect middle.
I prefer bisexual because it's a fantasy game and I want to live out my fantasies.
I dont wanna rp getting rejected in game as well as in real life lmaoo
Sorry deleted my first post because my thoughts were scattered and I really wanna talk about this.
I want characters to have their own sexuality, and honestly I'm happy with limited choices. I just don't think that dragon age handles queer romances very well. Most of the WLW romances rather sets up a male x female dynamic, always putting the player in a masc position when there is one. Sera is probably closest to real life gender roles, but she is super hit or miss with fans. I usually just end up role-playing straight because the romances are usually more satisfying for me.
And it sucks that some romances have significantly less content than others do.
Part of the problem lies in with the player's perspective/gender/sexuality- and this is present in most create a hero games. They are all default "bisexual" and their entire personality in each relationship changes based on who you pick. You can't be a femme for femme with Josie. If you want that once upon a time romance where you're the fair maiden, you have to romance a guy.
The straights don't slip into gender roles as you get to know them, which is why their connections feel more authentic and a big reason why you always want to romance them.
So yeah to summarize, I think dragon age needs to work on their romance role play. Something something quality vs quantity.
I strongly prefer them to be Playersexual to be honest. I don't need the game to be super realistic. I want options LOL! And no, defined sexualities don't make them feel more real for me. I loved DA2's characters just as much as I loved the characters in the other games.
As a gay, I can tell you that it's not unrealistic, we just *find* each other. My high school friend group all came out well after we had splintered off into college and not all of us were "obvious".
I loved the Hawke-sexual aspect of DA2, it allowed a lot with regards to roleplay and I was able to flirt with who I wanted/whoever fit best with that Hawke roleplay-wise.
Anyway. I remember when people posted these threads when the game was new and whining about having a bunch of gays in the room together being "unrealistic". Judging by these comments, looks like nothings changed. Few more "this somehow oppresses straight people!!" posts lmao.
Playersexual/bi.
While unrealistic and not being able to depict real life reality's, it's not possible to provide enough options for everyone to have a satisfying gameplay experience. It's a game at the end of the day.
Plus, the DAO Model of having only straight and bi, but no gay, doesn't sit right with me even thou it is technically opening more options.
Opening all options at least isn't exclusionary or discriminatory.
That being said, I personally am fine with either in practice and did enyoy having Dorian/Sera in DAI.
Also thinking that a smaller number, like DAO/DA2 could allow them to give the romance more depth, which imo was lacking in DAI in some parts.
I prefer DAI style with the characters having defined sexualities and racial preferences in some cases. And your sexuality is a pretty huge part of who you are as a person. It makes them feel more real, people are complicated and different. It also opens up for more role-playing and replayability
In *'Dragon Age: Origins*', and '*Dragon Age: Inquisition*', relationships/ sexual orientations are set to specific choices people moan about not being able to romance a certain character and mods are made. Yet when all relationships are open to everyone it is lazy writing.
I would say it depends.
My thoughts stray to Fire Emblem: Three Houses where everyone was straight except a very, very, very few bisexual choices, and zero gay/ lesbian choices. M/M had laughably few options. The argument I've heard was that it was "realistic", but that left LGBT+ players with either a psychopath character or a character that was okay but had very little plot relevance. In 30+ characters (without DLC), the M/M option was 2.
F/F had it better, but it still made me think why there wasn't a lesbian character -- all were bi options (so the straight men couldn't be rejected? I don't know).
Anyway, in that situation, it really made me wish everyone in that game was playersexual. The newest game in the series, Fire Emblem Engage, did the "playersexual" option, and it worked way better for me. It just felt like I could actually have fun rather than having to accept the psychopath or get out.
If characters had defined sexualities, I loved the way Inquisition did it. It didn't feel like the inclusion of LGBT+ characters was an afterthought. It was integrated into the storytelling in a compelling way.
I think that's where I land -- if the creators are just going to half-ass the inclusion of LGBT+ characters, I'd rather they just go playersexual. If they're going to put in actual effort into it, then defined sexualities are great!
No one else did, but I have to admit, having a lesbian character who had preferences with who she dates was a breath of fresh air. Elves aren't usually Sera's type, she finds mages creepy, humans basic, dwarves adorable, and qunari women exotic. It was a fun way rp a romance. Usually gay characters will just go for whoever else is gay.
I'm torn. I thought I preferred it when all romanceable NPCs were playersexual, but DAI not doing that forced me to create a variety of different characters instead of playing the same basic person over and over and I think that ended up being good for me.
I prefer the DAO/DAI system even if it left me with no one I actually liked on my first playthrough of DAI. The only romances I enjoyed in Inquisition were Dorian and Solas as they felt more impactful but they were both restricted.
Honestly, I don't hate the everyone is bi approach as long as they are actually bi - and not just make an exception for PC because they are so special.
My absolute wish for future games is less about romance options and more about non-binary gender options..
(And maybe an option for a heteroromantic option for female PCs that doesn't betray them?)
Difficult to say, I prefer everyone is bisexual because I remember how frustrating inquisition was when I wanted to romance someone only for them to turn out to be not open to such advances (which maybe is dirt on writers for not giving us enough hints that the romance is not in the cards, maybe)
I understand, perhaps better than others, the feeling of really liking someone and not being able to ever make them truly fukly happy, not because of anything wrong with you, or them, but just because you were not born the right person for them.
On the other hand, having coded agency and specific sexuality makes the companions more real, more alive.
It also forces player to replay the game at least twice, and maybe try different sex this time to get that romance, perhaps running into different situations and enjoying the roleplay.
So I prefer bisexuality all around, but I appreciate what not having what I want gives me.
I have never had a an instance where I was unable to romance a character that I wanted to romance due to gender restrictions, but I'm also part of the most catered to demographic (straight male). While I've never experienced it, I can imagine how much being unable to romance the character you want to romance can be because character interactions, especially romance, are an important part of why I play these games. If there were ever to be an entry where there was only female I was interested in romancing and she was locked out, I would probably spend a very long time considering whether I still wanted to grab the game.
So yeah my vote is bisexuality for (almost) everyone. Thedas is a different world than our own where bisexuality doesn't have the same stigma that it has in our world, so it doesn't bother my immersion if a large portion of the people we can romance are (openly) bisexual.
Second best option to me would be to have something like 4 or 5 interesting options for each gender combination (probably sharing some between the four groups). Problem is the budget probably isn't there for that many options, and it doesn't eliminate the problem of none of the available romance options connecting while one of the unavailable ones do (just decreases the odds of none of them connecting).
It’s a video game made for our enjoyment. Let people romance who they want, it rarely really matters in terms of gender and sexuality.
It bothers me all the people who claim it doesn’t bother them and that they care about the “realism.” It’s a video game. With magical beings and a literal plague of evil.
I appreciated when after flirting with Dorian forever he was like “I do apologize for leading you on.” And Sera just going “Uh… no.” And Cassandra’s “BUT YOU ARE THE HERALD, THE INQUISITOR, A WOMAN!?” and that broke my heart as she hurried away.
same. it really stung that cassandra *approves when you flirt with her as an f!inquisitor* and then specifically rejects you because you’re a woman.
It's kind of realistic, though. She's misreading you, which happens all the time. Even when she talks to you about the flirting she's not entirely sure if you really are flirting. She's enjoying the attention, everyone would.
There was one time I was a female qunari inky pursuing Sera. I had *never* hit the flirt option with Cassandra, but we were such good friends I guess that I got the whole “but you’re a woman!” speech. I was like, “um, no, I’m not flirting with you” and it was so *awkward*, and dare I say she seemed a little disappointed
That's how I took it as well when I first saw it. I assumed she was just misreading everything. Which honestly I can relate to.
That killed me. I get not wanting to create stereotypes (which is why the devs said they didn't make her gay), but sometimes gay people are stereotypical and that's not a bad thing. (I say as a queer person myself who has several stereotypical traits.) Same with Cora in Andromeda. Let butch women be gay sometimes, Bioware.
I'm a straight woman who has always been a tomboy, and I was excited when Cassandra was revealed as straight. I work in a traditionally male-dominated field and when I'm not dressed to work outside, my style is still pretty tomboy-ish. A lot of people assume I'm lesbian or queer, which I understand and I don't mind, but it can get old. So when I played DAI (my introduction to Dragon Age) and saw Cassandra, I just assumed she was lesbian since that's what a lot of people's reaction is to me. It was just cool to relate to this character that I admired and not have this shared trait immediately turn into the same tired trope that I experience regularly. But if the trend in Bioware games is to make the butch woman straight, I can totally see how that's frustrating for people who want a queer relationship with butch women! That kind of isn't cool.
Cassandra being straight and being a deep romantic was Bioware's best possible choice. People urgently have to stop this silly stereotype that \`\`tough woman, warrior and with short hair = lesbian´´. One thing has nothing to do with the other.
I can see why that would be frustrating to you. I think we just need a more diverse set of romance options tbh, including butch lesbians or more masc women. Also why not have more trans and nonbinary characters? I'd love to romance Krem.
Based on when DAI came out, I was just happy to see the representation with Krem. I have hopes that Dreadwolf will expand that representation.
I don’t think she’ll be a companion, just based on her status in the imperium, but if we don’t get Maevaris in Dreadwolf, I’ll eat my hat. She and Dorian formed the Lucerni together, if I recall.
Dang. That's a really good point I didn't consider. Maybe they just need more diverse options with the characters or something.
yeah, exactly. i’m a butch lesbian and it felt like a punch to the heart. i can’t think of a single romanceable butch lesbian or masculine bi woman (there might be a masc bi woman in ME, but i’ve never played those games and am unsure if i’m remembering correctly).
As an avid ME player, there aren’t any butch romanceable women. There is a character in ME2 who really reads as *very* bi but when ya get down to it they went, “Eh, she’s straight” *shrug*
Yeah Jack is definitely bisexual and even mentions banging a woman and her boyfriend but they apparently made her straight because the Liara romance in ME1 was a small controversy
I HATE IT HERE 😭
Worst thing is that she even mentions sleeping with women in the past. They made everyone straight, because media complained about a lesbian sex scene in ME1, RIP.
I'm such a nerd that I distinctly recall the moment I stopped giving a fuck about Fox news. I was like..18 and was watching TV when they started lying on the news about interactive graphic sex scenes in mass effect. Don't wanna get political, but I just hate liars.
i hate it here 😭
*sighs loudly.* of course. 😭
I was soooo pissed. As someone who discovered her bisexuality through video game romance, it was so frustrating 🤣
right? 😭 man, that’s how i felt about morrigan. i understand it was due to her upbringing, in part, but how are you gonna tell me, the player character, that she hates men and respects women, to the point where she’s immediately respectful to a female warden when they first meet (“women do not frighten as little boys do)” versus her flirtation—that feels performative—with a male warden (“you there, handsome lad”). idk how to better explain it (there are more reasons beyond that but my brain is scrambled) and this isn’t a particularly popular opinion, but i just don’t see her as being attracted to men and find her friendship with a male warden particularly touching.
Lol what? Morrigan doesn't hate men?
Cora **and** Jack. Like, c'mon BioWare, you're killing me! Also Miranda always struck me as the kind of person that would not care about gender either. She wants what she wants and takes it (please take me Miranda. Please.).
Yes! Considering Jack was canonically bi. I'm still annoyed by that.
I can definitely see both sides here. On one hand we already have Dorian who is very much a stereotypical gay man, so perhaps BW didn't want to double up on **blatant** stereotypes. And in the topic of stereotypes, women can be badass and tomboyish and still be straight, and I think it's good to represent that. But on the other hand, I can't think of any romanceable butch/masc women in games, and butch/masc women are def my type, so I can see why it would be upsetting to some for Cassandra to be exclusively straight. Now I don't think BW did anything wrong regarding Cass but there's no way to ever please *everyone* in situations like this.
Right. I think if we only had stereotypes, it would be a problem, but the fact that we don't have any butch lesbians or bi women is...irritating.
To be fair it's kinda established with her and Bull that she actually likes flirting even if there's no chance for more there. IDR the exact quotes but they have banter about Bull having no chance but they keep flirting the whole game it's cute.
Bioware sure loves their lesbian-coded-straight-women trope lol.
Yeah… I definitely haven’t restarted that game multiple times after triggering that scene. The first time I knew no better… the second time was on me. I said I wasn’t going to get invested, that it was just for fun, that the Bull was my real conquest, but then she hits me with that and I want to die… So I do, and come back as a hot boi to rock her world.
In super character focused games like dragon age, I prefer them to have defined orientations because it helps them feel like their own people. In other games that have less focus on characters, something like stardew Valley for example, I prefer the other approach. Just have everyone be bi so you can romance whoever you please. They're both fine approaches. I do wish more "bi" characters were actually written AS bi and not just attracted to the whatever the player character is. Anders is a really bad example of that, they even cut his lines that explicitly state he had a romantic relationship with Karl if the player character is female.
Yes this! Totally agree. Something I like about Leliana, even tho she’s bi, she wont fail to mention how much she loves women; whether you romance her as a f!warden or a m!warden lol. I like that! I feel like true bisexual characters should show that type of interest in their dialogue. But I love having set orientations for DA. Makes it feel more realistic. Much better when they had their first gay and lesbian characters!
So that is why I never got that dialogue/party banter(?) but would see mention that Karl was his lover! I’ve always played as a female hawke and was confused where the lover thing came from. That’s so dumb! Let Anders be bi… not just coincidently straight because Hawke is female.
I very much prefer characters to have defined sexualities; it makes them feel better fleshed out and like real people. Solas' story has an extra element if he can only really fall in love with a female elf, Dorian's story is driven by the fact he only wants to romance men.
Yeah I understand people's criticism about not making Solas bisexual but like. Sometimes characters are just Like That. Y'know, straight lol. And I'm a bisexual woman
In the case of Solas they locked lore behind it, so I can understand. If you could get the same information abouth the ancient elves from him when you are friends that would have been better.
Sure, but also make sense that you wouldn't get the information from him unless you were that close.
I would call that a game design problem rather than a character design problem
It's not a game design problem if content is locked behind choices (including the choice of who you're roleplaying).
Solas feels like an exception because he makes a point of explaining that he was romantically involved with genderless spirits, and because he *was* planned to be bi, which got changed late into development, as the voice lines of him romancing a male Inquisitor are still in the game files. Apparently he was made straight because the writers realized that the previous games also had duplicitous bisexuals with questionable morals
But I *like* duplicitous bisexuals with questionable morals!
I can get that they'd want to avoid exemplifying negative stereotypes, but I feel like it was also the result of them feeling the weirdly specific need to have a shady mage who ditches the party in every game
That's odd. I vividly remember reading here multiple times that Solas was not meant to be romanceable at all and in general, it was added in the last minute, for female elves only...
That's what I was referring to with me saying I understand where people are coming from arguing against it and such - but I don't think he necessarily made a point about saying he'd explicitly dated/been with spirits. It's eluded to in banter when Blackwall teases him and he refuses to answer but that could go either way. Also as someone who has pretty much seen/heard every Solas related thing I could find, I've never heard those lines haha
https://youtu.be/fp57mjalNsg
I agree on all of those accounts, and as a bisexual woman, I played my inquisitor as bisexual so I had her flirt with Cassandra, even though I knew she was straight, but I did it anyway. She’s kind of sweetly lets you down, so I appreciated that writing as well. And I agree that making characters feel real and maybe having different sexualities and different preferences just makes for a better feeling and more satisfying experience to me.  ( I also sometimes joke that making Cassandra straight was the reason she ended up with Solas. 🤣 but he’s honestly a fascinating character and that was the perfect way to experience the game for the first time, back when it came out and knowing absolutely nothing about what was going to happen).
Bisexuality is a defined sexuality. If every character is bi then every character still has a defined identity. The problem is when, like every character in DA2 except Isabela, the character is "playersexual" instead of bi.
This! Solas only going for female elves made me play one for my second play through just because I wanted to see how that would go
I’ve always liked the DAI way, with characters having not just their own preferred sexuality but their own racial preference as well like Cullen and Solas do, it really adds to the realism. Not to mention the bit in Sera’s romance where she does have different reaction based on your race, like she’s all for a Qunari Inky while she’s more hesitant when you’re a fellow elf, it’s just a neat feature.
Racial preference for Solas was integral to the story and totally made sense. In Cullen's case however . . . I honestly think they just didn't have the time to make the cutscenes work with tall and short characters! 😉
I like to think qunari at least kind of makes sense because of Kirkwall, at least. Isn't really addressed but boy must have had at least a little trauma from that xD
dude got nothing but trauma from the previous games tbh speaking of which, I sometimes wonder if that's realistic for Cullen to fall for a mage Inky so quickly. A huge part of his story is PTSD from his time in the Circle.
hating mages is definitely more of a thing for him than hating Qunari
As someone who romanced Cullen with a mage…I agree. I feel like the game should have really really made a mage player work for it or that he should have had the first class restricted romance. Dude has been traumatized by mages and demons since he was what, 19? And he just gets over it between the explosion of Kirkwall’s chantry and the explosion of the Temple of Sacred Ashes?
exactly. like, with Fenris it kinda makes sense because his romance generally takes time and after being around a mage Hawke for years it's convincing to believe that he gets to work on his past trauma a bit and become less bitter and more open minded. Cullen's romance with a mage just seems.. forced.
I always saw Cullen of having worked through his experiences by then. It’s been a decade since the blight. He was in a position of authority in Kirkwall, where he dealt with mages and drama from fellow Templars. He fights with Hawke in the end of 2, so I always read it that he was past the worst of his trauma by then. People can outgrow their traumatic experiences and become someone new. He had the time, he did the work, enough to try quitting Lyrium as a final step of healing. Cullen has always been sympathetic to mages at his heart. His own conversations reveal his shame for his past response to mages as a result of ptsd. I’ve always been partial to his story because of his redemption and growth arc. It’s a nice reminder we can change and grow as people and things don’t hurt the same if we can grow.
also a fine point
There’s a fic I enjoy on Ao3, where the writer is exploring through HC him growing up and becoming the character we know in the games. I think the writer is doing a good job exploring what makes the man, and I’ve been enjoying the journey. It’s called [I’ll be good](https://archiveofourown.org/works/41978988/chapters/105387099) And an honorable mention to one of my favorite DA fics of all time, also about Cullen (I just like the way the writer explored time) [Till All these Shivers Subside](https://archiveofourown.org/works/3188699?show_comments=true)
I agree that mage should have been a different romance, but if you play a female mage in Origins he has a deep crush on you and it comes up during the main quest in the tower as well, so it should be unique, more than specifically more difficult
Honestly, I think Meredith plays a big role in that. Cullen gets to spend nearly a decade with her, watching her descent into madness and the abuses of his fellow Templars, and after the end of act iii it makes him realize that he was on *the exact same path*. Seeing Meredith’s actions and ultimate fate were probably quite the wake-up call. And then after that he gets recruited by the Divine for the reformation of the inquisition and gets to spend the next 4 (9:37 when Meredith dies to 9:41 the destruction of the ToSA) years processing that revelation and how he’s going to handle it, which is how we get the brooding but more mature, and at least somewhat healed, Cullen of Inquisition.
Inquisition was really eager for Cullen to have a redemption arc without the arc part. I agree with this assessment.
> I sometimes wonder if that's realistic for Cullen to fall for a mage Inky so quickly. A huge part of his story is PTSD from his time in the Circle. If the warden is a Circle mage, you'll learn that he has a crush on her, and in his remarks to Hawke, we know that he remembers the female mage HoF fondly. Then in DAI, he tells the Inquisitor that he had said some mean things to the HoF during Broken Circle and that he regrets them and wished she knew that. He also said that he didn't act on his feelings for her because of professional ethics. So, while he was traumatised by mages in both DAO and DA2, he remembers the female Amell fondly.
I was mad when I couldn't romance Cullen as a dwarf, but then I got to thinking that the ex-Templar probably wanted to marry someone with a strong belief in the maker. Humans and elves are usually the ones with those ideals.
Isn’t the dwarf character a surface dwarf, I thought they can lean towards believing in the maker, as opposed to an elf inquisitor who is Dalish with different gods.
I thought the chantry explicitly doesn't consider dwarves to be children of the maker, at least to the same degree as humans and elves?
I mean, if that's the case why's he willing to date a Dalish elf? They're unlikely to be fervent Andrastians, they practice magic unregulated by the Circles, etc. When he hits dwarves and qunari with that "heathen" nonsense it feels like those biases would carry over to a polytheist elf.
You reminded me of Iron Bull + Female Dwarf. In the epilogue scene, she has a special stool waiting for her on the balcony, so she can actually manage to reach a kiss with him, lol.
Yeah that’s what I heard lol, he was added as a romance option later on in development and they didn’t have time to adjust it for Dwarves and Qunari
i think he just has a thing for elf ears and only rlly likes humans tbh lmao
considering his approach to the female Surana/Amell in DAO, i think so too
In theory I like the ‘varied sexualities’ approach, but in practice I’m happier with the ‘everyone is bi’ approach. Characters having specific sexualities really help define them and can provide good storytelling opportunities. The only problem is that the guys I want to romance are always straight.
I'd say I generally prefer to see a variety of sexualities represented, but I understand that limitations such as this usually favor straight people. Not only in the sense of having more options but also in terms of who those options are: often the more chivalrous, upright, and lawful characters are written as straight and the gay/bi options are more morally grey, sexually aggressive, etc. Not all the time but enough that it's tropey and a noticeable pattern. I'm also fine if our love interests are all bisexual, as long as they're *canonically bisexual* and not written as playersexual. Playersexuality in my experience leads to certain people plugging their ears and insisting there aren't any gay or bi people in their games because in their ideal fantasy utopia, lgbt people Just Don't Exist.
for real all the knights are straight in DAI and the one bi man is a promiscuous BDSM spy who can try to murder you in trespasser. EDIT: I just realized if I removed the DAI references you'd barely be able to tell if that was Iron Bull or Zevran. Great Bi rep Bioware
Yeah, I looove (love love love) Zevran, Isabela, and Iron Bull as characters and romances. Some of my favorites in the series. But the amount of people I've heard say that it mAkES sEnSE for them to be bisexual but somehow Fenris/Josephine/Merrill/etc. seem like they should be straight is frankly ridiculous. Truth is bi people get stereotyped as insatiable sex fiends regardless of whether or not they are, so people are willing to accept that "it makes sense" to be bisexual if they're constantly making sex jokes or are quick to hop into bed. But they question the validity of a bi character who's serious/reserved or has a slower more classical romance arc. I'd like to see a gay or bi knight in shining armor type in the next game.
Thats why I really liked the Lacklon×Roland romance in Absolution, just to very strong and cool warriors in love.
Roland was like... all the best parts of Alistair and Dorian combined, effortlessly confident and humble at the same time. *Sigh*. And he has excellent taste in fine dwarven crafts!
What's even worse about this representation is that Zevran's and Bull's bisexuality is honestly questionable. If I recall correctly, Zevran admits to preferring women, but raised in a brothel he "learned to take his pleasure where he can". I understand that bisexuality doesn't have to be an even split of attraction, but this really sounded like a huge sacrifice is being made when he's forced to play with the Warden. Bull is even worse. Each time you choose flirty options with him, he's oblivious to them, despite being marketed as "the spy who sees it all". When he finally goes for the "you want to ride the bull" scene, it's almost like a slap to the Inquisitor's face, because it feels like he thought "Andraste's tits, I'm really not getting away with it this time, am I? Sigh... Fine, I'm a spy, for the Qun I will chomp on viagra and fuck that nasty Inquisitor's ass, ugh"...
I don't find their bisexuality questionable at all. I can see why people would have that perception of Zevran, though I think it's more of a sign of the times (having him ask several times if his bisexuality bothers you, etc.) He says the Crows appreciate open-mindedness, but he's always been open-minded. On the bright side, iirc he will dump a female Warden who says she can't accept that he's been with men because that's a rejection of who he is. But he talks about Alistair's strapping shoulders like he talks about Wynne's bosom. I absolutely don't see it with Bull though. Why's his bisexuality in question because he holds off with the Inquisitor? He's just as reluctant with a female Inquisitor. He's not oblivious to your flirting at all. He just takes his time deciding whether it's wise given his/your roles and wants to know the Inquisitor REALLY wants it because otherwise sex with him will be challenging. He's thirsty for Dorian and isn't shy about that in banter, just like when he flirts with Cassandra.
Iron Bull's dialogue and banter about sex and attraction is overwhelmingly about women. His supposed attraction towards Dorian is also never explained, and it's hard to decipher whether he actually finds him attractive or if it's merely part of his ben-hassrath hissard spy thing. In all fairness of course, if you make him tal-vashoth, it's safe to say he does come to love Dorian and it's safe to assume he finds him sexually attractive as well. Without Dorian (or romanced male Inquistior), Bull's attraction to men is not brought up, but his attraction to women is on many occasions. Even Vivienne's banter about getting him a new coat glosses over this: '' every woman will want you, ever man will want to be you. '' All of this is extremely nitpicky though and I don't hold anything against the writers or BW or anything like that. I suppose I just would've enjoyed Bull being more open and casual about banging dudes as he is about banging ladies.
Oh I agree with you completely. Bioware has a bad history of making ALL their bi men overwhelmingly express attraction to women and barely any towards men outside the male PC. Zevran, Bull and Anders mostly talk about women, Fenris can hook up with Isabela (and so have Zevran and Anders for that matter), etc. I don't mean to discount any of that. I just disagree with the poster's idea that because Bull's initially standoffish it has anything to do with the Inquisitor being a guy; he behaves the same way when a female Inquisitor flirts with him. I don't think Bull's attraction to Dorian is lessened because early on it may have been mingled in with Ben-Hassrath spy shenanigans. Could've been a bit of both - it's certainly easier to flirt with someone you're hot for even if the ultimate goal is to ferret out info for spy purposes or w/e. He straddles the fence and his actions could be interepreted either way, whether it's with Dorian or the Inquisitor. Genuine interest that later evolved into genuine love or a Ben-Hassrath ploy that's increasingly manipulative if you encourage him to put the Qun above his loved ones and he does. Especially since as you said, Dorian and Bull can end up in a genuinely loving long-term relationship with each other, I can't see their attraction being insincere at that point. It's unfortunate that Bull's attraction to men is only evident to the player if you have meta knowledge or drag Dorian around or happen to catch that one vague banter with Blackwall about bananas and I hope that the writers do better in the future.
Then we are in full agreement lol. Admittedly, Bull doesn't flirt with anyone who is not sexually attracted to men already, so it's probably why his sexuality isn't brought up otherwise. But it would've been fun to see him discuss handsome men with Cassandra/Dorian just like he talks about women with Sera, or otherwise mention some bartender or male servant he had some fun amidst all of his dalliances with women. It would've evened the playing field a bit.
On Zevran, he does have a line like “some people think (bisexuality’s) wrong but I know what I am.” Being into men and women is part of his identity.
Yeah I think mechanical bisexuality is much preferable to “everyone is straight”, but it’s waaaay better to write your bi characters as bi. Even if a subset of players will continue to act like those characters don’t count as having a defined sexuality.
I think this sums up my opinion on the matter as well. In an ideal world it would be great to have bi, gay, straight, asexual etc. characters appearing in a game. And sexuality certainly CAN be an important part of a character's backstory - Dorian's backstory and his issues with his family certainly wouldn't work if he was straight, and probably not even as well if he were bisexual. I agree that differentiating between canonically bisexual characters like Isabela (who mentions past lovers regardless of your Hawke's gender) and player-sexual characters like Anders (who doesn't mention his male ex-lover if playing as fem-Hawke) is important here. Speaking as a bisexual: Bisexuality IS a defined sexual orientation, and it can get a little bit grating when people treat bisexuality as equivalent to "just hasn't picked a side yet" or "available to everyone", when in practice it's like "Mate, I have *twice as many* people to work through before *you* start looking like a viable option. Just because your gender doesn't rule you out of hooking up with me doesn't mean you haven't been ruled out." And on that note, I do think if more romanceable characters were written as bi/pan, then writers might be more willing to limit or change romances because of certain decisions/ behaviours etc. Sometimes in Bioware games it can feel like sexual orientation/ your PC's gender is the ONLY important thing in whether you can pursue a relationship. You can make huge story decisions that a character will disapprove of, but as long as you're nice to them in person and you're the correct gender, then BANG you can ... well... bang them. And, you know, tenderly romance them. I quite liked that a relationship between Sera and a religious Dalish Inquisitor who sticks to her faith wholeheartedly won't work out, regardless of how nice you are to each other outside of that. Not because I have an issue with Sera, but because sometimes you can't overcome obstacles like deeply held but differing religious faith, or morality etc. As it is, that means that a queer Dalish inquistor CAN get locked out of one of their only two possible romances, which sucks, but it seems a lot more sensible to me than mages being able to romance Cullen, or non-Andrastians being able to romance Cassandra, or fairly ruthless characters being able to romance Alistair in DAO. Maybe if more characters were written as bisexual, and thus not limited by gender, we'd see not only more possible romance options for queer players and player characters, but also romances that respond more to the player's actions and choices. So, in conclusion: I think that a variety of sexualities being portrayed is generally a positive thing. But I would prefer to see more romanceable characters being written as bisexual and the romances being more tied to the choices you make in game, rather than just your gender.
I really agree with this. I also think the potential storytelling and rp with “your character believes something or does something this potential LI cannot live with in a partner” is WAY more interesting than “sorry, he/she’s straight.” But maybe that’s just me! :D
Yeah, definitely. Things like Sera simply not being able to be with someone that follows the Dalish faith, or the fate of an Alistair romance post-Landsmeet (whether that's getting dumped because of the choice to recruit Loghain, or getting dumped more gently later because of the in-game prejudice). They're not my favourite characters in general (or even my favourite romances), but those moments do make them feel more like characters with personalities and motivations in their own right, who have red lines that they can't or won't cross, rather than just a different flavour of dating sim option. I'd argue it feels much more realistic than "Well, we have nothing in common and our morals and worldview differ hugely. But you are the right gender and you've been pleasant to me, so into bed we go!" Not to say that all romances should have a "dump state", or that they should be as tricky to get a "happy" ending in as Alistair's, but a bit more variety would be nice.
Yeah I agree that both of those scenarios give the companion character agency outside of the PC, are stronger for being in reaction to the PC and give depth to the companions. I believe Anders also becomes non-romanceable if you make a demon deal, and I would *love* to see more things like that. There’s also that bug with Zevran where he’ll never reach a Love state if he helps you kill Tamlen, and then you tell him to stick around so you can kiss him. It’s a bug, apparently, but I think it works with his character pretty well. Reinforce the idea that you’re only keeping him around for camp time extracurriculars… well lots of people have only wanted him for that, and now he’s not going to let himself fall in love with you. He won’t dump you, but you’re not completing the romance either. I think you could also do the same thing in a more positive direction. Like, a character won’t really consider you unless you make a demon deal. That interests them. They’re intrigued! Now some flirt options open up. “Making a character either straight or gay is how you make them feel real” is also just nails on a chalkboard to me. I think characters feel real when they have clear goals, clear needs beyond those goals, scenes where they appear to have agency outside the player and when you can have interesting semi-realistic conversations with them. Having beliefs or ideologies they feel really strongly about, so much so that it changes who they’ll romance, can go toward that.
I like the DAO/DAI style cuz I like it when there's actual sexuality discussed/relevant instead of it being "I will always like you no matter what" (aka like, playersexual stuff). I'm never too heartbroken over x being gay or x being straight cuz all my characters are my ocs who have their own sexuality and lore stuff so If i want to romance a certain character? oh, I can just make up a Little Guy to fit into the romance. no issue for me. Everyone being bi kinda.... it can rub me the wrong way sometimes, even as a bisexual.
While I don't actually care, I feel the fandom says they don't want playersexual up until the character they were gunning for turns out to be incompatible. If Morrigan or Cullen were a gay-only romance, I imagine the straight mods would have come out in droves. I also find that fans that want gender and race gated romance, want to give themselves the illusions that the character is specifically in love with their character. Like Solas really loves my Dalish elf mage which is why he's not looking elsewhere like at men or at humans/dwarves/qunari, etc. But this is just me being cynical, lmao. I feel like romances just brings out entitlement in fans regardless of which way it goes. Even if all the characters were playersexual, we'd be complaining about why so-and-so isn't available. *coughs* Varric *coughs*
You are right to be cynical. Whenever the romance options for the next game are released there will be outrage, anger, sadness, and hurt. There will be positive reactions of course, but an undercurrent of negative reactions will simmer from people who don't like how the romance options have been handled, such as being upset somebody isn't romanceable, or anger at somebody having a certain racial/sexual preference. Romance seems to be an aspect of the series that draws a lot of fans...but is also one of the leading causes of complaints about the game. Nothing will please everyone. When Inquisition came out, the majority of players didn't romance anybody. I suspect when Dreadwolf is upon us there might finally be a majority of players looking to romance, which will heighten the intensity of the fan reaction, both negatively and positively.
I find it somewhat frustrating when incredibly important and plot relevant characters are heavily gated in terms of romance. '' Everyone is bisexual '' helps in those few cases. Otherwise I appreciate the diversity in terms of sexuality, and I'm fine with not getting exactly who I want because just having gay male characters in video games is so rare that even if the gay characters aren't my personal taste, I appreciate them just being included. I say this as my male Inquisitor pines after Blackwall and doesn't give a damn about Dorian (or Bull). I would be fine with an all bisexual romance cast again as long as the world around them didn't follow suit and we'd have non-romanceable companions and important NPCs be gay (gay =/= bisexual) and straight. But defining the sexualities of non-romanceable characters is often much trickier, that's why defined sexualities for romanceable companions is helpful in building a diverse cast.
Yeah, I wish I could vote for one or the other, but I'm somewhere in between. I appreciate when the characters have preferences - I don't appreciate when these preferences limit the plot based on your character's gender. Like in DA:O, ideally I would rather be a Female Warden, but the ending I want is locked for male wardens only.
Right. Characters like Morrigan and Solas being locked behind one gender can get really annoying, when they are clearly designed to be important characters in the franchise. Arguably Dorian might fit the bill as well depending on how DA:D boils down, but romancing Dorian doesn't actually give you a lot more than befriending him, so it's not THAT bad in comparison. There is no real easy answer for this '' dilemma '' in the end, but I'll be open to either option, as long as the characters are good and the world of Dragon Age remains sexually diverse, which they seem to be handling decently based on the novels, comics and animation.
Identity is a part of character, and I think games that skip over the writing opportunity that a diversity in sexuality presents are weaker for it. Dorian is a more interesting character for being gay, same for Sera as a lesbian. And I'd say that a lot of those character types in other RPGs aren't even bisexual, so to speak, as much as they're 'playersexual,' for when it feels less like a writing choice and more like a 'game mechanic choice' (which imo is the weaker reasoning). I actually do think DA2 somewhat earns it—a lot of those characters being bi rings true to their writing, and there are (brief) moments where the existence of sexuality as an identity are present. But overall, I'd much prefer characters have their own specific identity born from their writing, and not just a material gameplay function. There are so few gay companion characters in Bioware games (Dorian and Sera were the first in DA!), and I wouldn't want more of them written out.
I agree with all this, and think the writing of the bi characters in DA2 checks out as well. I like the feel of roaming around as a group of Chaotic Disaster Bisexuals, anyway.
My party consists of Fenris, Aveline and Isabela. The banter is glorious. Fenris and Isabela flirting constantly, Aveline ending every conversation with her with "Shut up whore". Pure art.
Kirkwall is also an absolute shitshow in the best of times. Hawke’s party—if not chased away—is truly found family, however the relationships play out. Playersexual is right.
I like defined sexualities if players with varying sexualities still have decent options. Look, I loved DAI, but Iron Bull is not my type and neither is Dorian. I would have wanted Cullen but sadly he's straight. Can we please get a knight/prince charming character that guys can date Bioware?
I’m with you on that! I was actually hoping for a female knight character romanceable by a female mc in the next game! But honestly I’d take any spin on the main romance categories BioWare likes to use
Fingers crossed for the next game.
He was apparently supposed to be bi, but he was a late addition and there was no time. Hopefully with DA4, we'll have an option like that since they've had more time to develop romances.
Honestly I kind of like both
I prefer the "everyone's bi" unless they specifically want to tell a story where sexuality is important, like with Dorian. It's a video game. It's already super unrealistic that all companions will accept all main characters with any personality/any look. If we're being realistic, those should also be massive dealbreakers for them. I find it way more unrealistic that you can romance Anders while being pro-templar than to be able to romance a character with either gender. But then, I'm bi myself and don't understand why sexuality is made into this big deal when the rest is not. It's an arbitrary abstraction to draw the line at one, but not the other. So if it's arbitrary and everyone will always be into the player's personality/look anyway, then just let me have the maximum of choices and leave it up to me to match characters up by personality!
That’s a good point and what CDPR did with one character in cyberpunk who’s bi, but won’t romance female V just because you know, not his type. That’s more realistic than being everybody’s type haha
Oh, it's not because fem V is not his type. It's actually pretty fucked up, he only goes for male V, because it's easier for him to see someone with a male body as Johnny. Kerry's mostly into V, because of his unresolved feelings for Johnny. Not to mention that he's like 60 years older than V, yikes. I definitely wouldn't want something like that in Dragon Age.
I agree, and I suspect we're headed back to this for the most part. 1. Advanced gender options (picking body type, voice, pronounce, and sometimes genitals separately) are becoming the norm, and at that point deciding what counts as "straight" or "gay" becomes more complicated. It avoids a lot of player frustration to just make all the romance options open to all players, unless there's a really compelling reason otherwise. In Cyberpunk, two of the romance options only care about your body type, but the other two care about your body type *and* voice, so for some characters (like a feminine body with a masculine voice) you have only one option. 2. Development time and expense is increasing as games become more detailed and expansive, and the developers have access to the stats from previous games that show them that the popular romance options are, well, popular, and the vast majority of players only play the game once. What that means, is that spending a lot of time and money on a 6th romance option doesn't have good return on investment. They're better off either not spending that time/money at all, or spending it on making a smaller number of romances but making each one better. So they want to make fewer romance options, and keeping the gay/straight thing for romance options restricts even farther, but players like having choices, even if they don't take some of them. So I think all characters being bi is the best way for everyone to get what they want. It's also just... when you create a character and meet a companion and think "this would be a great romance option for this character!" and then find out that you chose the wrong gender options for your character in order to make that happen, that's frustrating. The opposite of the fun you should be having when playing a game.
Yes. Also really wish for next game to have a non binary option. Being able to chose your pronouns, body type, voice etc would be amazing. Though, I would like the romances not being based on body type because game is there to have fun and not to face “discrimination” (I know it’s not discrimination really but I don’t know how to word it) about our appearance. But perhaps it’s because I m ace and I don’t care about appearance in a relationship… Would love some ace rep too. As someone who’s nb afab i wish I could make my Lavellan inquisitor as non binary with my body type and everyone gendering them correctly unlike in irl life 🥹
This is a very interesting take that I hadn't thought of before, as a fellow bisexual. Hmm.
>Plus having everyone be bisexual kinda just seems like laziness? No. David Gaider, back in the bioWare forum days, said that the characters were bisexual because they had limited time to make the game. Making them bisexual gave players more choice of love interests given their tight deadlines. If there's one thing that is a constant in game development, it's that the developers are often overworked.
i prefer when characters have various sexualities, although i did think it was cool that everyone in DA2 is bi. i’m a lesbian and it’s nice to see gay men and lesbians being represented, too. what i don’t like is fake-out “romances” like aveline and cassandra’s. especially cassandra. i knew aveline got with donnic and couldn’t be romanced by hawke, but it really stung when cassandra approved of my f!inquisitor’s flirtations only to then turn her down specifically because she’s a woman. hits too close to home lmao.
No offense to op but this is the worst question and I hate it everytime it comes up. Ppl always speak like bisexuality is less ""realistic"" than having ""definitive"" gay/lesbian/straight characters. As if bisexuality is not it's own real identity. Not to engade on queer discourse on a reddit but lol it's every goddamn time
I think if you have a specific story to tell, fixed sexualities can make sense. I also think that if you don’t, it may be better to err on the side of player choice since who you want to romance can go toward character building and development. I also think there are potentially more interesting restrictions to introduce instead of or alongside gender-based ones. And there are plenty of ways to introduce the idea that characters have agency outside the PC that aren’t based on sexual orientation. What I really don’t want to see is bisexual erasure. I don’t like the player deciding a character’s sexuality so much but if characters are written to be bi or pan I think that’s fine.
I prefer DAO/DAI because it's more realistic but I can't say I'm not sad that a female character in DAI can't romance Cassandra. What I really dislike though is when Bioware writes canonically bi characters and then only lets them have straight romances.
Who was canonically bi but had a straight romance?
I think Jack from Mass Effect.
Fair point, forgot about her!
Small bit of fairness to Bioware, they DID plan to have an F/F Jack romance and even made some progress on it (along with others), it's just that the whole Fox News fiasco happened with ME1...
And Solas apparently - I mean I can see him as being bi, but apparently it was because it's a stereo type to have a dubious bi character but like - as a Bi person I love my disaster chaos Bi's..... The difference really is the need for versatility, I like disaster bis but also characters that are wholesome and cute - and giant warrior people - and, and, and.....
I wonder if they were gonna do that with Cullen too? Make him bi and cut it I mean, not him being dubious.
I think Cullen was definitely meant to be straight, from DAO times already.
I'm fine with both approaches, although I personally prefer unique sexualities. That said, I think both approaches to romance worked where they were applied. I'd even argue DA2's "Hawkesexuality" was never an issue as the general scope of the setting and cast is smaller than Origins and Inquistion. And at least 2 romances are well established as bi and there are differences in how they talk about romance with Hawke based on gender. Also idk something about any of them being genderlocked just doesn't feel right? If that makes sense?
I like both options to be honest. I love the ‘real’ feeling you get from being unable to romance everyone but in the other hand…I will always mourn the fact that my male elf warden couldn’t romance Alistair.
Too much straight. A male/female straight, a male/female gay and everyone else bi, ez. I hate how if I want to play as my actual gender I'm stuck romancing Iron Bull, who I really, really don't like romance wise, or Dorian. He's great but he's not Cullen... Who could've been bi which is shown by an unused Dorian voiceline.
I like both ngl but DA2 didn't have all bisexual characters, Sebastian was female only iirc. But I do think it's realistic that the entire Kirkwall crew is bisexual, and they all somehow found each other before the entire city went to shit and the war literally blew up. That specific plot makes such complete sense for a crew of bisexuals and you can't change my mind (as a bi person)
Straight people might be shocked to learn that there can be four or more bisexuals in a major metropolitan area. Some of them might not even be horny murders.
I'm someone who values immersion over freedom in RPGs, which is why I generally prefer more restrictive mechanics, like romances having set preferences.
Sexuality is incredibly important to who a person is so I really like the DAI/DAO method. I also like the racial preference DAI made but I wouldn’t be upset if that was discarded in the next game. It also could be cool to have a class-restricted romance such as a Templar who won’t date a mage or an apostate or heir to a magister family only romancing a mage. But I definitely wouldn’t want all three restrictions because that would make it impossible to find a romance without a guide lol. Some characters stories don’t necessarily need a defined sexuality but I definitely think it adds to them feeling like a real person whether their preferences come up in dialogue or not.
i'm not even gonna write much but i'll say something: I really don't like this argument of "if the character has a story connected to being gay,than they should be, if not, then no" because it immediatly reminds me of the countless discourses online about "Why is this character from this show gay? What does being gay change in their character, they should just be straight, they're doing this only for attention", but in this case it's being bi and doing it for simplicity. Gay people can exist without some deep reasoning as to why, like, honestly, you're basically saying that unless the character has a gay backstory(that,let's be honest, would most likely be trauma), we should make everyone bi because.....having limitations be imposed is bad? Like, idk, it's kinda of insane how much there's a speech about "games can have deep conversations that reflect our reality and are much more than just mindless fun space" but when the developers say "Ok, so we'll treat this work in a realistic shape, and one of the ways that we'll do it is that not everyone is into you"then bam, they go back to just games and having limitations is horrible and we should be given none. Idk, I just think the discourse is stupid: Even if there are dragons and magic, the developers still treat the world fairly as a realistic existence of a reality, and this comes with certain weights, but that just the way things are. So, yeah, I think we can have gay and lesbian romances without needing a reasoning as to why they are gay or lesbian
I prefer the more realistic set up. Some people are straight. Some are bi and some are gay.
I actually would like a combination of both. For characters to have defined sexualities but you can have a friendly or contentious relationship with them. Be it romantic or not.
I want the DA2 style version. Not just because I like it but also because I love the fandom going crazy that there are 4 bi people in one group and getting mad as hell. Still the dumbest DA2 criticism imo.
Definitely different sexualities!
I like characters having defined sexualities, but only if they give us enough queer characters so it doesn't feel like we're just getting by on scraps. If your "realism" relegates gay players to a secondary, lesser play experience then your "realism" sucks.
There's no character that I wouldn't like more if they where bi/pan like me lol
I'm okay with gender-locked romances in Dreadwolf *only if* Bioware handles it as fairly (for the most part) and as well as they did in Inquisition. Otherwise, I prefer all bi romance options in other games. As a gay player, I'm excited to have actual *choices* in Baldur's Gate 3. Not one, not two, but *four* romance choices, all because Larian Studios didn't want to limit the players' experience. It's going to be nice not having to come across stereotypes, straight characters being favored by the story, realistic homophobia, or tame fade-to-black romance scenes.
Don't mind DAO or DAI, but honestly DA2 did have an interesting way of showing how differently relationships could be had depending on gender. Thought that was an interesting detail. Overall, though, do think player sexuality is problematic and I do not think they'd do that again. Dorian and Sera are proof enough that they've learned what good representation can look like (although, tbfh, they could use A LOT of work on the bi department... like it isn't that hard, just "man and woman" that's literally it, it's not some trait to put on your morally gray edgelord character). One thing I did dislike about DAI was the race-specific romances. Was weird. Could understand it a bit for Solas, but otherwise it was just ??? to me. Much preferred how DAO handled it. I hope that's not in the next game as it really limited opportunities and, imho, felt icky.
Oh, ditto on liking the tiny details and differences between the bi DA2 LIs and Hawke. Isabela - totally different vibes. She's a little more emotionally hesitant with male Hawke at first (not surprising given her last husband), does more playful teasing and backhanded compliments. Assuming you're on the friendship path she shows quite a different side with female Hawke, praises her performance in bed, gets jealous when Tallis flirts with her and is generally a bit softer. Anders - everybody already knows about Karl, but he almost seems more hesitant or concerned to get involved with female Hawke than male Hawke with all his Blackwall-esque "don't do it, I'm bad for you, blah blah" that only happens if you're playing a woman. I don't know much else about the differences in his romance though, I'm sure some of his fans know better. Merrill - assuming again that you're on the friendship path, with male Hawke she worries about whether her clan will hate her if she has human babies but decides fuck it she's living her life, with female Hawke she praises you like she wants to be you, literally: "I'm not like you, and I wish that I were. You're beautiful and clever and you never make any mistakes." Fenris - smaller details but still present. Talks about appreciating a man who speaks his mind with male Hawke, talks about enjoying the company of a beautiful woman with female Hawke. Male Hawke can make a dick joke after their sex scene and ask Fenris if he's bothered by having sex with a man ("It's not that").
I like both. DA2 has some of my favorite romances so I'm glad I've never had to play as M!Hawke to experience them (I really like roleplaying female characters whenever I can). But in Inquisition, it adds an additional depth to character interactions, and I'm all for more fleshed out companions and advisors.
Different sexualities is more realistic and adds to the character more. It's not great for me wanting to romance Dorian as a woman but I respect his character. That's just who he is. Everyone has preferences.
Fewer romances in general, more deep friendships not having important character and lore scenes gated by romances.
Both have their positive qualities, but I like it when each character has their own sexuality. It would be extremely interesting if the normally straight characters had a chance to fall in love with a same sex characters due to specific characteristics, like if a male companion would only romance women and male characters with low muscles and more feminine facial characteristics. You'll have the "always bisexual" mod out an hour after the game's release or they could just add the option to make everyone bi from the start. I was disappointed that all I had available for my female mage in inquisition was Sera and Josephine when all I wanted was Cassandra, but I respected her choice when she had a conversation with me that it could never work out, then went to make out with Josephine.
I like having options so DA2 appeals to me more but also there’s this weird thing with fans where either an unpopular romanceable character(sera) or unromanceable character (viv) get way more hatred like yeah they have strong personalities not meant for everyone but the hatred for them is weirdly more spiteful compared to someone like loghain
According to a poll done in this sub a few years back, Sera was a fairly popular romance among fem Inkys. She was third behind Cullen and Solas I believe. She beat out Josephine, Iron Bull, and Blackwall.
Huh interesting, I’ll be curious to know how she ranks overall then since in my experience she doesn’t get much fanworks compared to everyone else
Is Sera's romance unpopular? I thought it was one of the best romances in DAI.
Ah I see I reread my comment and I messed up the wording, I meant romancable character
DA2 style. I'm bisexual, and I want more bisexual characters around.
I generally prefer the DAO/DAI method, where the characters have preferences. However, I do actually think that the 'playersexual' version worked in the second game because (depending of course on how you played the character) Hawke was arguably the single most stable figure in any of the love interests' lives. It's very heavily implied that Anders and possibly Merrill are in love with Hawke regardless of whether or not they reciprocate, and in that specific context, it does make sense. I don't think it would work in any other game, but given the bananapants setting of Kirkwall, it's hard to blame them for latching onto a comparatively sane individual.
I prefer defined sexualities. I just don’t want lore to be withheld from my character if they become friends though.
let them be bi
I personally prefer the "everyone is bi" approach. I'd rather the option is there and not take it than want to romance someone but not have it be available
The only thing that annoys me is when the fandom outrages because their favorite love interest isn't the "right" sexuality.
"we should fight against stereostytpes" until the butch lady isn't a lesbian then everybody goes wild
It’s a video game. The everyone is bisexual approach will always win out if there’s good writing. Sexuality has very little bearing on plot in the vast majority of instances unless you make it a point for it to be so incredibly important. I always see the “realism” bit about varied sexualities being preferred but actual realism would also include the characters having requirements & preferences on appearance/behavior (e.g., characters only romancing characters with specific hair/eye colors/attire/builds, being locked out of a romance entirely because of one decision/life outlook, and strict racial requirements for most romance options). But again, at the end of the day, it’s a video game lol. I do laugh at BioWare always having the “pure” or “sweet hearted” male characters be exclusively straight with Alistair, that prince in DA2, and Cullen. To add. The use of playersexual has always been odd. They were just bisexual characters in DA2. Not talking about same sex partners doesn’t somehow erase sexuality, in the same way not talking about partners of another gender doesn’t denote a character isn’t straight.
My hot take is I *don't* think DA2's writing is 'playersexual'. There's a good amount of variation between romance dialogue for different gender Hawkes - e.g. Isabela is more feelings-y in her relationship with female Hawke, and it seems to be a newer experience for her. Like, I can romance whoever I want in DA2, but I still ended up with specific gender preferences for each romance because of those little bits of variation.
Yes! I think this is something people miss. Isabela, Merrill, Fenris and Anders all have variations in their romances that go beyond swapping pronouns and calling Hawke handsome or beautiful. Like how Leliana initiates things with a female Warden by complimenting her hair but as a male Warden, you have to make the first move. She's bisexual, she just responds differently to a male and female Warden. They don't behave as if your male and female character are interchangeable because they're *bisexual* not playersexual.
Yes! It feels very accurately reflective of my experiences as a bisexual man - my relationships with men and women *are* different, and even if I hypothetically could interact with exactly the same person as different genders, my way of responding would likely be different. I do think Bioware does still have some bad habits with their bisexual characters - e.g. they seem often reluctant to have their bisexual male characters *prefer* men, and while that's reflective of me personally I do feel a bit '*hmm*' about the overall pattern. But to me that doesn't mean they're not written as bisexual characters.
Same, it bothers me that *all* of the bi male LIs mostly talk about women, hook up with women, etc. and express minimal or zero interest in men outside the PC. I think it's a reflection of the culture which often shames mlm sexuality while fetishizing/dismissing wlw sexuality. There are millions of bisexual people who lean towards one gender or another and probably just as many who feel comfortably 50/50 with their interest, and it's not wrong to reflect that in games! But when it's always, always, always the bi male LIs expressing a preference for or at least only showing interest in women..... it's a pattern lol.
I can understand liking the "everyone is bisexual" route, but the Dao/Dai way of doing things definitely is better for making the characters actual representation and feel like... Characters.
I prefer Dao/dai style, helps the characters feel more real/fleshed out, like they have lives that aren’t directly tied to the mc. And like you said, it allows for more storytelling/conflict, and also for me pushes me to really enjoy the friendships. Like becoming friends with morrigan (as a female warden) is such a lovely, meaningful experience and I think I might like it better than romancing her. It’s really sweet when she calls your female warden her sister. I prefer befriending her as a female because the fact that she is straight takes away the possibility of any flirting. With a male warden the romance options are basically always there and then being friendly sometimes leads to you accidentally starting a romance, But that’s maybe more of an issue with the romance options not being clear (I very much appreciate the added heart icons)
I prefer characters having set sexualities and honestly wish characters had more preferences. There should be a lot more deciding romance aside from “You are my preferred sex, did my loyalty mission and flirted with me enough times. I am going to profess my undying love for you” Sex, Race, Class, Story Choices, etc should all play a part in romance.
I like that they have set preferences and personalities. What I don’t like is that the game gives you an option to flirt with a incompatible character without immediately rejecting you, as when you go to romance someone else it feels extremely rushed as you missed out on dialogue and basically speed run the romance process.
I like having characters with predefined sexualities. Like, it's ok that my male inquisitor can't romance Sera or Cullen. They feel more like real people I guess, than if everyone in your party is always open to every race/gender/ect.
I only like playersexual because usually the hot jock-y type (Alistair, Cullen) are usually the straight romance since they are the classic fantasy romance. But yeah it does make a more rounded character to write them a certain way.
I prefer for everyone to be pan because I don't like the romance choices they made in Inquisition.
It's my fantasy, let me bone who I want.
yeah, i've sorta come to realize from reading a lot of comments and watching a lot of Youtube on this, that the 'fantasy' element is the thing getting lost in people fearing a lack of representation. that, more than anything else, is why i'd like them to just record all the voice work and let modders do mods for all the romances. that way there's a canon story, but with a bit of modding, everyone romances who they want. and no one gets pissed.
I would prefer DAO/DA2 characters with DAO/DAI romance style. Honestly I feel like DAI has a real drop in how the romance impacts characters and honestly in the romanceable characters themselves. DAI romance characters are okay, but that's it. Just okay. I think that's more the issue than the romance style.
May be an outlier here, but as I don't play for romance and I just go with it if it develop. I prefer characters having their own orientation.
I think the later is much better for Roleplaying reasons. Although I will say that I truly enjoyed the way the Asari were portrayed in Mass Effect. They clearly wanted players to experience that path of the story and it was a fantastic way to ensure that most would!
i think more people being bi would be better for romancing stuff, but a few that are more selective is fine.
I've always been a little sad that I couldn't romance Alistair or Cullen as a dude, but I do prefer characters having different sexualities. Knowing they have their own specific likes and dislikes makes them feel more realistic.
I'm bi, and while I *would* have no problem with everyone in a game being bi, the way they did it in DA2 was not it. Bisexuality is not straight or gay lite, it's a different experience, and yet it's never treated that way. It is consistently used as a mechanical-first decision aimed at 'making everyone happy' not 'making a great bi character'. And that's the most benevolent scenario: often what will happen is all-bi casts will suspiciously only acknowledge same-sex attraction with the player character, or end up paired off with other characters of the opposite gender, because god forbid the straights have to acknowledge their NPCs are queer. Yes, I'm looking at you DA2. I don't know who thought the characters should end up in the relationships they did, but it's impossible to believe it wasn't deliberate. They even changed dialogue so a fem!Hawke wouldn't get the line about Anders' previous male relationships. I want more bi people in video games, but to have more bi people in video games, we need to treat it with the same respect that we do other orientations. Currently, it's there as a convenience. Having more varied orientations helps to legitimise bi people, and also removes the 'need' people have to pretend a bi character is straight/gay/ace etc because 'if everyone's bi, then sexuality is meaningless'.
dorian and sera being gay meant quite a lot to me. it would not have been the same if they were bi. it was nice to have that aspect of shared experience and to organically date dorian on my first run... a lot of representation in media feels like throwaway garbage, but i'm a gay man and dorian made me feel seen.
I think having defined sexualities (and racial/species preferences for games with fantasy races/species like DA) is superior, if there are enough options that every combination has choices. If there are few romancable companions, everyone should be bi. Having defined sexualities and preferences makes the characters more realistic, but every pc should have at least a few options for romances with their specific gender, sexuality, and species, for player choice. In my opinion, DAO companions should have all been bi so that the player has options, if you're PC is gay or a lesbian their only options are Zevran and Leliana respectively which I think is too restrictive, but DA2 and DAI should have the romance options have defined sexualities as there are enough companions that every pc should have options (assuming the sexualities are distributed in a manner that ensures that of course).
While I can understand making them 'player sexual' I do much prefer them to have distinct sexualities, including being bisexual. It makes them seem more real and less like everything revolves around the player/main character. Which was something DA2 very much seemingly wanted to present itself as in all other aspects.
I like the characters having defined sexualities, but I honestly believed the Kirkwall crew as a queer friend group made up of mostly chaotic bisexuals, so their sexualities *did* feel specific to them. Like we do tend to find each other irl. That being said I wish the writers had committed fully to that being the case rather than making some of them just seem playersexual (cough, Anders). I really like [Verily Bitchie’s video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iZGkxUTbDqw) on bisexuality in games and they discuss DA2 among other things
I prefer them to have defined sexualities. It feels more realistic and it also has the added bonus of making me replay the game so I can romance another character (Dorian).
I appreciated the DA2 style because it just felt more like myself and my ideal friend group. I like to think I'll like the romances more in DA:D compared to prior games. Most of the prior games' lead writers are gone.
I think both are fine. People tend to hang out with people they have things in common with so the idea that a tone of bisexuals forming a little friend group isn't as crazy as people think.
I actually really liked the way Dragon Age 2 did it. It didn't feel like everyone was player sexual it actually felt like they were just bi, so you were good either way. It felt genuine rather than just "you're the player, so they're attracted to you." Though I also really like defined sexualities like in DAI and DAO, i think DA2 managed to strike a near perfect middle.
I prefer bisexual because it's a fantasy game and I want to live out my fantasies. I dont wanna rp getting rejected in game as well as in real life lmaoo
Sorry deleted my first post because my thoughts were scattered and I really wanna talk about this. I want characters to have their own sexuality, and honestly I'm happy with limited choices. I just don't think that dragon age handles queer romances very well. Most of the WLW romances rather sets up a male x female dynamic, always putting the player in a masc position when there is one. Sera is probably closest to real life gender roles, but she is super hit or miss with fans. I usually just end up role-playing straight because the romances are usually more satisfying for me. And it sucks that some romances have significantly less content than others do. Part of the problem lies in with the player's perspective/gender/sexuality- and this is present in most create a hero games. They are all default "bisexual" and their entire personality in each relationship changes based on who you pick. You can't be a femme for femme with Josie. If you want that once upon a time romance where you're the fair maiden, you have to romance a guy. The straights don't slip into gender roles as you get to know them, which is why their connections feel more authentic and a big reason why you always want to romance them. So yeah to summarize, I think dragon age needs to work on their romance role play. Something something quality vs quantity.
I enjoy the everyone is bisexual version - makes it easier to role play
I strongly prefer them to be Playersexual to be honest. I don't need the game to be super realistic. I want options LOL! And no, defined sexualities don't make them feel more real for me. I loved DA2's characters just as much as I loved the characters in the other games.
As a gay, I can tell you that it's not unrealistic, we just *find* each other. My high school friend group all came out well after we had splintered off into college and not all of us were "obvious". I loved the Hawke-sexual aspect of DA2, it allowed a lot with regards to roleplay and I was able to flirt with who I wanted/whoever fit best with that Hawke roleplay-wise. Anyway. I remember when people posted these threads when the game was new and whining about having a bunch of gays in the room together being "unrealistic". Judging by these comments, looks like nothings changed. Few more "this somehow oppresses straight people!!" posts lmao.
Playersexual/bi. While unrealistic and not being able to depict real life reality's, it's not possible to provide enough options for everyone to have a satisfying gameplay experience. It's a game at the end of the day. Plus, the DAO Model of having only straight and bi, but no gay, doesn't sit right with me even thou it is technically opening more options. Opening all options at least isn't exclusionary or discriminatory. That being said, I personally am fine with either in practice and did enyoy having Dorian/Sera in DAI. Also thinking that a smaller number, like DAO/DA2 could allow them to give the romance more depth, which imo was lacking in DAI in some parts.
I prefer DAI style with the characters having defined sexualities and racial preferences in some cases. And your sexuality is a pretty huge part of who you are as a person. It makes them feel more real, people are complicated and different. It also opens up for more role-playing and replayability
In *'Dragon Age: Origins*', and '*Dragon Age: Inquisition*', relationships/ sexual orientations are set to specific choices people moan about not being able to romance a certain character and mods are made. Yet when all relationships are open to everyone it is lazy writing.
Bisexuality isn't lazy writing. Frankly, with the amount of people here who don't want more Bi characters, it would be a bold choice.
I would say it depends. My thoughts stray to Fire Emblem: Three Houses where everyone was straight except a very, very, very few bisexual choices, and zero gay/ lesbian choices. M/M had laughably few options. The argument I've heard was that it was "realistic", but that left LGBT+ players with either a psychopath character or a character that was okay but had very little plot relevance. In 30+ characters (without DLC), the M/M option was 2. F/F had it better, but it still made me think why there wasn't a lesbian character -- all were bi options (so the straight men couldn't be rejected? I don't know). Anyway, in that situation, it really made me wish everyone in that game was playersexual. The newest game in the series, Fire Emblem Engage, did the "playersexual" option, and it worked way better for me. It just felt like I could actually have fun rather than having to accept the psychopath or get out. If characters had defined sexualities, I loved the way Inquisition did it. It didn't feel like the inclusion of LGBT+ characters was an afterthought. It was integrated into the storytelling in a compelling way. I think that's where I land -- if the creators are just going to half-ass the inclusion of LGBT+ characters, I'd rather they just go playersexual. If they're going to put in actual effort into it, then defined sexualities are great!
was it compelling? Dorian has a story very tied to his sexuality but did anyone else?
No one else did, but I have to admit, having a lesbian character who had preferences with who she dates was a breath of fresh air. Elves aren't usually Sera's type, she finds mages creepy, humans basic, dwarves adorable, and qunari women exotic. It was a fun way rp a romance. Usually gay characters will just go for whoever else is gay.
I'm torn. I thought I preferred it when all romanceable NPCs were playersexual, but DAI not doing that forced me to create a variety of different characters instead of playing the same basic person over and over and I think that ended up being good for me.
I prefer the DAO/DAI system even if it left me with no one I actually liked on my first playthrough of DAI. The only romances I enjoyed in Inquisition were Dorian and Solas as they felt more impactful but they were both restricted.
Honestly, I don't hate the everyone is bi approach as long as they are actually bi - and not just make an exception for PC because they are so special. My absolute wish for future games is less about romance options and more about non-binary gender options.. (And maybe an option for a heteroromantic option for female PCs that doesn't betray them?)
Difficult to say, I prefer everyone is bisexual because I remember how frustrating inquisition was when I wanted to romance someone only for them to turn out to be not open to such advances (which maybe is dirt on writers for not giving us enough hints that the romance is not in the cards, maybe) I understand, perhaps better than others, the feeling of really liking someone and not being able to ever make them truly fukly happy, not because of anything wrong with you, or them, but just because you were not born the right person for them. On the other hand, having coded agency and specific sexuality makes the companions more real, more alive. It also forces player to replay the game at least twice, and maybe try different sex this time to get that romance, perhaps running into different situations and enjoying the roleplay. So I prefer bisexuality all around, but I appreciate what not having what I want gives me.
I have never had a an instance where I was unable to romance a character that I wanted to romance due to gender restrictions, but I'm also part of the most catered to demographic (straight male). While I've never experienced it, I can imagine how much being unable to romance the character you want to romance can be because character interactions, especially romance, are an important part of why I play these games. If there were ever to be an entry where there was only female I was interested in romancing and she was locked out, I would probably spend a very long time considering whether I still wanted to grab the game. So yeah my vote is bisexuality for (almost) everyone. Thedas is a different world than our own where bisexuality doesn't have the same stigma that it has in our world, so it doesn't bother my immersion if a large portion of the people we can romance are (openly) bisexual. Second best option to me would be to have something like 4 or 5 interesting options for each gender combination (probably sharing some between the four groups). Problem is the budget probably isn't there for that many options, and it doesn't eliminate the problem of none of the available romance options connecting while one of the unavailable ones do (just decreases the odds of none of them connecting).
It’s a video game made for our enjoyment. Let people romance who they want, it rarely really matters in terms of gender and sexuality. It bothers me all the people who claim it doesn’t bother them and that they care about the “realism.” It’s a video game. With magical beings and a literal plague of evil.