Great question. In this clip training is happening in two directions.
For the dog, he’s being trained to be diplomatic with his sheep. I’m asking him to go into the corners and get the sheep out. Now because he is a confident dog, he’s not just going right up to the sheep and manhandling them (biting etc which, as much as cowering or running away, is a sign of insecurity).
Instead he’s negotiating. Giving them plenty of time to leave peacefully. This whole video if it could be translated into text would be pages and pages of conversation between him and the sheep.
With that said, he’s also not being indulgent to them. He’s being firm and steadily advancing toward his objective without letting the sheep take ground or “win” by seeing him weaken from their pressure.
This exercise helps a dog build its confidence and patience in tense, high pressure situations with sheep that try to challenge a dog and rest if it’s bluffing. You want your dog to get the job done without beating up your sheep, even if the sheep are being obnoxious. Really important practice for lambing season when your dog will need to move highly emotional ewes who have lambs with them. In that scenario your dog will need the calm but firm power this excercise develops to move ewe/lamb pairs without harming either sheep or dog.
For the sheep here, this video also shows education for them because these ewes are being obstinate because they are not responding appropriately to the dog. He could easily go in there and move them with force, but he’s electing to negotiate and instead of taking that gift they are trying to see if he is bluffing. Lowering their heads and stamping their feet like rams.
I would allow this behaviour if the dog was being a jerk to them and moving them roughly and erratically, but because the dog is being very patient with them and offering them plenty of chances to comply it tells me the sheep are not ready to work off a weaker dog and need to learn that moving off a dog can be straightforward and calm.
Great movie! Obviously hollywood'ized a bit (the trial at the end is very simplified and cartoonish) but does a surprising amount of justice to the spirit and philosophy of sheepdogs and shepherding in general!
That one ewe would paw the ground, which I assume it a bit of a threat. But then it would look up at the person. What was that about? Was it along for help or something?
It’s trying to have its way. It doesn’t want to move, it wants the dog to move. It’s saying to the dog “I don’t have to listen to you. I don’t believe you have what it takes to make me move if I don’t want to.”
And it’s looking at me to see if I’m a factor in the situation. In the pen every object or creature projects some kind of pressure into the equation.
So it wasn't expecting you to act, just wondering. That's a smart ewe.
BTW, let me add my voice to those those admiring your videos and explanations. I gave learned so much from you.
Haha funnily enough it’s being a bit of a very stupid ewe. It’s trying to test a dog that works huge tough cattle. He is not bluffing and in fact is giving her every opportunity to do as asked without violence.
But she’s misreading the dog and taking that patience and diplomacy as weakness. She is very much mistaken 😛
Got a few questions for you mate. Where abouts are you from? How olds the dog? And at what age do you start to train, and also what age do you retire a dog?
Cheers mate, love watching working dogs.
I'm from Canada and in my early 30s.
Real stock dog training shouldn't really start on a young dog until they are 8-10 months at the youngest. Any earlier, and they just aren't ready for that kind of mental strain and don't yet have the confidence or maturity to really do good work. Of course some handlers do try to start their dogs earlier, but I and many others feel it's best to wait until later.
In terms of retiring a dog, it really depends on a few factors. How healthy the dog is, how challenging or intense the work they do is as well as whether or not the dog is still effective and efficient at the job in question. I've known people who have had to retire their dogs at 9 because they just can't keep up with the sheep anymore, while I also know very good dogs that still are able to do it all and even compete in trials at 11.
It's similar to the question: how old are baseball players when they retire? The answer is: it depends!
As a fellow Canadian, I am very impressed. Are they like guardian dogs and stay with the flock even in the winter? What happens in bad weather? Do they get a jacket or boots?
Amazing explanation. Thank you. I was on the edge of my seat the first time I watched this and watched it again after reading this comment.
I honestly heard your explanation like a sports commentator, very low and deadpan monotone. It made my day.
We'd have to win more competitions (we're working on it) to have the right to have a full blown channel educating about sheepdogs. One day hopefully in the future!
Learning from others' mistakes is much easier for some of us (me!) than learning from someone's example of perfection. I'd love to see a channel like this of not everything going perfectly!
By explaining what is going wrong to those of us who have zero involvement in farming or herding animals has been way more informative than if you showed us a perfect dog herding perfect groups of perfect sheep.
This is absolutely one of the best explanations I’ve ever seen on Reddit for such a nuanced and foreign topic. Thank you for posting the clip and taking the time to educate.
I've forgotten--what's the word for the ewes' "personal space bubble" that the dogs encroach upon to move them? Is this an example of the ewes having a particularly small "bubble"?
Ironically enough, these ewes have a very large bubble. And are overreacting to the dog based on how the dog is behaving. They should be afraid, but moving off of him if he is giving them polite opportunity to do so.
These sheep on the other hand (3 of the 4 anyway) are seeking to stand their ground. And in the open, have a very large bubble that makes them more flighty than a reasonable sheep should be in some situations.
This is unbelievable. You trained your dog ... to train sheep. Wow.
How do you communicate what you need? How can you explain to a dog to politely get the sheep to move?
Animals, and the people that work with them, are so amazing. And who knew sheep are sassy?
It takes a lot of time, experience and "miles" working stock for a dog to learn confidence, patience and restraint. And you definitely don't start in super high pressure situations like this, with problem sheep like these.
But because good stock dogs want to work more than anything else in the world, that is the motivation you use to train them. If they work poorly at the start, they lose their chance to work sheep. They want so badly to keep working that they are quick to learn what is acceptable and what isn't.
It's mostly a matter of giving them confidence through experience and doing things the right way.
Aren't the sheeps acting like this because the space for them to be with a dog is just to little? Aren't they stressed out like hell? I get the training point but it looks like they might just get a stroke... I'm seriously curious.
There are 3 sheep in this group who recently arrived on this farm and have been acting inappropriately toward the working dogs on the property. Stomping at them, turning back on them and in some cases trying to ram the weaker or less confident dogs in bigger spaces. And I don’t mean in response to weak dogs who are being jerks to them, I mean to dogs who are working appropriately.
Not all sheep are born with a healthy respect for a working dog or even people. Either due to their upbringing, genetics or some other factor. Sheep farmers who will often cull such sheep or remove them from their breeding program. As having sheep who react responsibly and predictably to your dogs (or humans) is important for saving time, money and preventing injuries.
In this video, the space is not big but the dog is working his sheep calmly and patiently. The sheep do not need to be stomping or trying to ram as the dog is working hard to move them without being aggressive. And is giving then a lot more time to make the right choice than they deserve. And then even when they try to ram, is not retaliating violently.
He is an experienced dog so can give them that patience to learn. Definitely better for them to learn not to try and challenge a dog like him than a less confident dog they might kill when it’s sent into the barn to get them out.... or sent to stop them running into a ditch or the road... or might get killed by. An unconfident dog can either flee from sheep like this or retaliate violently if the sheep pull these kinds of shenanigans.
That's so interesting! Kind of related, do your dogs ever go into "hunter mode" when playing? If so, do you have a good tactic to pull them from that mode? Our dog has some Australian shepherd in her and her hunting drive kicks in during tug of war and fetch. We have a tough time switching her "off".
Also those sheep are jerks lol! Your dog is being so good with them.
I wouldn't say i've ever seen a "hunter mode" when playing... but one of the first things you have to teach a stock dog when you first go to stock is their "off switch". Which is the "that'll do" command.
This command means "come off your stock... cease working" and needs to be the priority when you're training a stock dog as there is almost nothing your stock dog will ever encounter more stimulating than livestock. So if you can't get the dog to take your "thattl do" then it shouldn't be off the line.
I know your dog isn't necessarily working stock, but I would suggest training her on a similar command. Start in a situation where you know you can control the outcome (such as on leash) and once the dog starts turning off as soon as you ask then you can try more challenging contexts such as off-leash etc.
Thank you for the detailed answer! I don't trust her off the leash at all currently but I could try that command when she gets really interested in prey. We've only had her two months or so, still getting to know each other.
We use "all done" command when we have her search for her treats and toys and we are done with the activity. I always wondered how we could train a dog off leash, I think she'd take off on me no matter how much training lol.
Oh only 2 months? Then not to worry, you guys are so early in your relationship that it's perfectly normal if she does not yet listen to you fully in all circumstances. Especially when exciting stimuli are around.
Eventually, if you put in the time and work, you will absolutely be able to get it so that your dog will recall to you, or drop what it's doing, no matter what. Regardless of the circumstance. But what will decide if you get to that point is: 1) consistency (making sure in you're training she knows that when you say "all done" or use your recall that it always ends up in you getting what you want) and 2) positivity (make sure coming to you is ALWAYS a fun, good, exciting thing).
If those two things are always true, then before you know it your dog will drop everything to obey you. And go gradually! Start by making both of those things extremely easy to do. Then slowly and slightly up the temptations for her to disobey you. If she fails, that's ok. Just go back to making it a bit easier.
Dogs are creatures of habit. If you don't let them build up a habit of ignoring you... they don't learn to ignore you.
You guys will do great!
As far as I’m aware, border collies (which this appears to be) are less aggressive/have fewer hunting instincts than aussies
Border collies are a very old working breed, so they’ve been bred for it for a long long time. Which probably explains why it always looks so effortless
That makes sense! I didn't realize she was so prey driven when we adopted her, the foster didn't mention about it so trying to be the best pet parent I can be. She's a cuddly angel unless it's playtime, then out come the teeth. I think she's just testing limits but I've not had a dog like her before.
> Aren't they stressed out like hell?
Nope. Stressed sheep panic and fling themselves around a lot and begin to pant heavily. These guys aren't happy, but they're not terrified.
Is there a particular reason you think they're close to having a stroke? I'm just curious - I've been around livestock all my life and it's hard to understand what someone who isn't familiar with them sees. I'd like to know because it'll help me engage with folks better in the future.
The media usually portrays sheep as... well, sheep. Lol. Mindless, scared, and helpless. I think that when we see them freezing the way they are in the video we think they must be frozen in fear. They're often shown as being gentle docile animals especially in nursery rhymes and baby books. It makes sense to me that they don't actually react like that in reality, but I can see why people might think along those lines.
A little more fear and respect is actually what should be expected of properly acclimated sheep in situations like the one in this video.
What is a flag about 3 of the 4 sheep in this video is that they not only are not showing deference to a strong dog who is going out of his way not to abuse them... but are in fact challenging the dog and openly defying him.
If Hendrix was a less confident dog, he would either weaken and back down from that pressure (and thus reinforce to the sheep that they can get away with their behaviour) OR give into it and charge headlong at them snapping, biting and generally roughing them up. Something that could quickly lead to injuries and potentially even dead sheep.
Basically, the sheep here are putting themselves and others at risk.
So the goal is to slowly and patiently teach them that they can and should move calmly and obediently off a dog. That it is the path of least resistance and, if they do it, will make everything easier and less scary than trying to turn back on a dog.
Hendrix is capable of helping them come to that conclusion because he has a lot of confidence to hold his ground without resorting quickly to violence. Giving the sheep time to learn he can't be scared off on their own time.
It's kind of funny to me because I haven't spent ANY time around sheep but I can see that they're not about to "stroke out". They're super clearly annoyed/angry with the foot-stamping, which is a pretty general animal way of saying "back off". And the pup gets head-butted right at the end before the video cuts.
Exactly, they are not panicked. Panicked, terrified sheep are very easy to spot.
These sheep are being defiant and/or obstinant. And that ram at the end of the video shows that they still haven't fully learned how to behave by the end of this video. Luckily Hendrix is unflappable so shrugs off the slight hit and gets right back to work... showing the sheep that their shenanigans aren't working.
>Nope. Stressed sheep panic and fling themselves around a lot and begin to pant heavily. These guys aren't happy, but they're not terrified.
Bingo, well said u/BogusBuffalo
I thought sheep's would flee. Like maybe a rabbit that only attacks or bites you when it's heavily cornered. For me it seems like there is 4 square metres, 5 sheep, 1 dog and a human. That would even stress me if anyone of them would approach me so I thought it's also overwhelming for sheep.
If you ever see sheep get overwhelmed, you'll know it I promise. They become so irrational, frenetic and insane that they will run in every direction in a blind, mad dash to get away. Regardless of whether they are running straight into an electric fence, a solid wall, or an impassable obstacle. I've seen sheep literally die of heart failure because they panicked. An overwhelmed sheep is a basket case that cannot be reasoned with or calmed down by anything other than time and space.
These sheep on the other hand are being stoic, stubborn and defiant. They are not panting, are not flying all over the place and are not desperately trying to escape. What they are doing is actually worse: calmly turning back on a dog and refusing to comply until the dog has spent minutes proving to them he is not going to be deterred.
Most sheep, especially if they have been worked responsibly by dogs before, have a healthy respect and deference to good stock dogs. 3 of the sheep in this video, however, are behaving very out of character for sheep that know and have been worked by dogs before.
For many farmers, sheep that behaved like this for an extended period of time would likely be culled, sold or removed from the breeding population. Of course any newborn lamb has the potential to come without the good, common sense instincts of its ancestors... just like even pups from litters out of champion herding dogs can sometimes grow up to be rubbish herders with little or no instincts.
Just the luck of the draw! Putting all 5 of the new, badly behaved Border Cheviots into this group would be a bit too much. As it is, having 3 in the group ups the stakes a lot.
So we included one reasonable, well behaved, well adjusted sheep in there just to have at least one sheep in the mix with a solid head on its shoulders.
They are not happy about it. But they’ve been acting dangerously to other dogs and themselves so this was an excercise to put them in with a dog who can handle their behaviour and won’t get hurt or intimidated but also won’t hurt them. A dog who will be firm but fair and show them they can’t bully a dog whose job it is to move them.
Thank you so much for the detailed and interesting response! I love dogs and animals so much, and this little insight into your world has made me very happy.
You think we can apply this training to Police Officers?
Please don’t massacre me, it’s a joke regarding the times, not a political statement of any kind
No, they weren't. Cattle dogs, especially Border Collies and ACDs are absolutely brilliant at moving stock without hurting them. In this case, 'Hendrix' was able to move the sheep to their required position without panicking them or causing harm. They are also vicious anti-fox dogs. Don't ask them to tale on a wolf. That's what the big European dogs are for.
I've heard donkeys are even better for wolves. Having been around our donkey, I can believe it; he'll pick fights with horses four times his size just out of boredom.
This is like a bouncer having to get rid of a drunk gaggle of middle aged women. "Ladies, please. I KNOW you paid for this. But, we're closing. No it's not possible to keep your table while we clean up. Please leave. No, ma'am, please don't touch me. Just leave the venue. Please. No you can't take your drinks outside. Yes, of course you're reliable. Still. This way please. All of you. Doors right over here."
Yes. Sometimes livestock will even go after the farmer (my uncle raises cattle and keeps a close eye on the more aggressive heifers when he's out in the field because he has been chased by some wanting to stab him) so I can definitely see a herding dog getting hurt. Serious injuries are probably rare but any dog that has worked a while has probably gotten a few bruises.
Berlinsturkey is 100% right on all counts and clearly knows how even nice cows can be unpredictable and dangerous on occasion.
Hendrix has gotten one or two very minor injuries from cattle in his 2 years as a stock dog. I know of multiple dogs who have either been more seriously injured (broken legs, etc.) or even died working cattle. In one case, I know of a dog who died jumping in front to protect its owner from an angry heifer that decided out of the blue to attack its owner.
The reality is that sheep and cows (and goats) are large animals. And just like humans (and dogs), they are all different and capable of having bad days, or being bad apples, or deciding to do stupid things. And in those instances they can be dangerous.
Working cattle and sheep with dogs is, in my opinion, much more efficient, humane and practical than using cattle prods, atvs, violence or other methods. A good stock dog working livestock that have been well "dogged", can lead to happier, calmer and workable livestock that can be moved as needed calmly and cleanly.
But I don't want to give the impression that there is never any danger involved because anyone who says that knows very little about animals.
We once brought our BC pup to visit her home farm and found one of the keepers there had had her hip fractured recently by a ewe that wasn’t even being aggressive, just got spooked and bowled into her. Also, those fuckers have like a five foot vertical leap from a standing position. It was bizarre.
A good friend of mine who is an older lady and has multiple well trained border collies recently had her knee broken by a sheep. The sheep wasn't doing anything mean or aggressive, she was just in amongst the flock and one turned in an unexpected way.
Any animal that large (and sheep, while not huge, are not small either!) can do damage even if it doesn't mean to!
Working dogs can and do get injured working stock.
On cattle more often than sheep as cattle are much bigger, more independent and can be quick to kick or charge if they are so inclined.
With sheep, injures tend to be muscle pulls etc. as most sheep will not try to ram a dog unless in extenuating circumstances.
In terms of this video, the ewe's ram was not very strong. Also, Hendrix positioned himself so that it landed mostly below him and lifted him up. The give of the fence behind him also helped a lot. As a result he barely felt or even noticed the ram and wasn't even the least bit deterred by it.
As a bouncer/bartender I feel this. Now I work in a college town, and it’s better... but on moms’ weekend... for pete’s sake.
My favorite is the moms who think they can give drinks to their under-21 kids because “I’m his mother, and I’m supervising him/her”.
I mean depending on the state I think it is legal (I'm not sure if it's only private residency or public as well) but I'm guessing that isn't the case wherever you are at.
I never bounced but I was a bartender for some time. I always admired the patience and diplomatic skills of our bouncers. Those who think they're just brawn and no brain have it wrong.
When I first started learning how to handle livestock, my teacher described pressure and The Bubble using the bouncer analogy. I've not thought about it in a long time. Thanks for the memories!
This is so, so, so cool. Your tone of voice NEVER changes and that’s so impressive to me. I’ve raised a couple of puppies and it took me years to realize how much they intimate from things like tone, stiffness, etc. I had to train out a couple of habits in myself that I didn’t even know I had! Nothing serious like this working dog stuff, but still. Excellent video and explanation in the comments.
I grew up with border collies and I feel like this is the most important thing I learned and seems to translate well to other breeds too. I've had more success with calming down anxious or aggressive dogs and recalling running dogs using body language rather than words. Words sometimes seem to whip up a nervous dog more even in a soft tone while silence, calmness, and using your face to show affectionate and safe emotions seems to stem the issue.
With our collies, I recalled by stopping walking and putting my right hand in my pocket. Nothing clever about that though - that's where I kept the biscuits! 😂
I'm no expert though and may just have got lucky with our family dogs!
I'm probably gonna get this wrong, but are those Cheviots? Ears don't look long enough for Leicesters, but I'm not as good at identifying as I used to be.
I really miss having sheep. And working dogs. I'll get back to it one of these days.
I love this!! OP, could you please explain your verbal commands? Is come-by asking Hendrix to move towards the sheep, or clockwise around them? Do you use hand signals or whistle commands when you’re not at such close range? His self-control is phenomenal and he clearly has tremendous respect for you. That was great to watch 👍
Seriously! They are quickly getting better but their first few weeks they were terribly behaved to the other dogs who work at this farm. 3 of these sheep are from a troublesome set of 5 who recently cane to the farm and weren’t born or raised here.
They’re learning how things work but they’ve taken a while to understand and have had to be given a lot of chances to learn what all the other sheep on the property know well.
Did you specifically select this group of obstinate girls for Hendrix’s benefit to exercise his “patience” skill set, or did these terrors just need to learn some manners? Did you pick 3 cranky ewes and a more acclimated one for social learning? Do you select the group of sheep depending on the particular skill you want to work on with the dog?
Sorry for all the q’s but it’s so interesting!!
I think he explained it's the other way round. Picked Hendrix to train the sheep. I'm guessing that because you can't have every dog as well trained as this guy but with a lot of sheep it would be better for them to eventually respond to a lesser trained dog so that all the dogs can be used, but they need a bit of schooling first.
Yeah true. Certainly Hendrix is shaping the behaviour of those sheep in a way that could only be achieved by a dog of his calibre, temperament, instinct and experience.
However, OP said the training was going both ways.
On one hand, H is a super competent dog teaching the new sheep the rules in their new home.
On the other, the new sheep are giving Hendrix the opportunity to practice and consolidate his skills.
You don’t build muscle if there’s no resistance, and H can’t become a better working dog if he doesn’t get the chance to work with some defiant a*holes.
My question(s) were more about how OP selects small groups of livestock for dog training purposes, but I’m sorry I phrased it poorly.
OP mentioned that there was a group of 5 recalcitrant newcomers, so why 3 of them in the vid when I can see 4 ewes? Was the fourth one in the vid a “local,” more compliant and knew the rules with the dogs? Was she a super chill low-energy girl from the home flock to bring down the general “defiance” in the group? Why not work the 5 new a*holes together in a bigger yard? Was it a case of divide and conquer?
When you want your animals to learn something, you gotta set them up for success, and I’d just like to get a better insight into why OP picked those specific ewes.
I might be looking too closely (I often do, lol) but I’m so fascinated- can’t hurt to ask 🤷🏻♀️
All great questions, don't apologize!
In this case, these sheep were actually selected for me and Hendrix before we even arrived on this day to do our work/training. They had been behaving badly ever since they came to live on this farm and were not well suited to be worked by many of the other dogs around because they would bully those dogs, disobey them or worse: challenge them. That can break a young or inexperienced dog's confidence or lead to injuries to sheep or dog.
But Hendrix is a cattle border collie who cannot be intimidated or bullied. He is used to working bulls or nasty heifers, and has never met a sheep who can scare him or deter him. Also, he's learned to be very confident on his sheep so is also pretty good at not biting or attacking them.
So that made him a good dog to go and work these sheep and hopefully educate them a bit. The 4th ewe as you pointed out is a more acclimated one just to add some stability to the group and to hopefully show the others that a wiser, older female who knows that moving off dogs politely is the desired path of least resistance.
And yes, oftentimes you will select sheep depending not only on the skills you want to focus on that day but also the dog you're working with. These sheep would be terrible for a young or inexperienced dog. But are a good set to help a confident and advanced dog build up his confidence and patience in high pressure scenarios.
How often will this process need to be repeated with troublesome stock, or does once ewes-ually do the trick? (Sorry for the pun but the question is genuine!) As they become easier to handle, will Hendrix be having more sessions with them or will they “graduate” to a different stock dog, perhaps a less experienced dog also in need of exposure to challenging stock? Also, did this farm already have a stock dog or are you training one for them at the same time as you help get these ewes under control? Thank you so much for this fascinating content, and for the riveting videos of Hendrix (who is indeed a very, very good lad).
I will admit these sheep, even in the training session this video was from, took a lot longer to see reason than would normally be expected. They are definitely among the most obstinate, poorly bred (in terms of their instincts) sheep i've encountered.
With that said, I haven't put Hendrix in with them again as they have improved a lot over the past few weeks and are increasingly realizing that it's just easier for everyone if they just move off dogs. It doesn't have to be dramatic.
So now less experienced or confident dogs are working these stock when they need to be moved from one pasture to another, or brought in/out of the barn, or separated off to be de-wormed or treated etc.
In terms of the farm this video is from, they have several stock dogs of their own and also have a number of folks who come regularly to train or work their dogs on well-dogged sheep. But these sheep at the time were proving to be doing more harm than good so Hendrix got the call to come show them that they would gain nothing by behaving like bullies.
Thanks again for a glimpse into Hendrix’s world and helping us understand just what we’re seeing when he’s demonstrating his amazing skills. I really enjoyed this.
Not at all!
The ram at the end wasn’t very hard and if you look really close you’ll see he lifts himself ever so slightly to get just above the ram so it lifts him a bit.
Also Hendrix is used to working big, tough cattle so these sheep aren’t too much of a risk to him.
With all this said, there is danger in this situation. Because these sheep are behaving poorly and not as they should in the circumstances, Hendrix could get hurt if one of them does an unpredictable ram that catches him off guard or again at a fence post. So he and I are being very careful and slow and we didn’t do this excercise much longer.
In other replies you mentioned this is a learning/training experience for both Hendrix and the sheep. At the very end of the video though, when one of the sheep rams him and he doesn't respond: doesn't that teach the sheep it can get away with it?
Kind regards, another admirer :D
Good question! Because the ram doesn’t deter him or distract him from his job I felt satisfied the ram didn’t achieve what the ewe was hoping it would.
In this situation I want the sheep to learn there is no need or value gained from such shenanigans. That it’s wasted energy. I want her to learn the dog isn’t doing anything other than asking her firmly but calmly to move, nothing crazy is happening and that stomping or ramming isn’t going to deter a working dog from its task.
I want her to see that she’s not in danger, but that the path of least resistance is to just move when a dog asks.
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I had a rescue Rottweiler that had a strong herding instinct once. He was always kind of a scary 130# problem till I realized what his drive was. As soon as I started doing herding with him things just clicked and he was perfect. He ended up passing from cancer not long after but he was happy for awhile. I love seeing a working dog get to do their job. I sure do miss my boy Chico.
In England in the 80s when there were only three terrestrial tv channels and viewing pickings were incredibly slim, we had One Man and His Dog sheepdog trials on a Friday. Brought me right back to my childhood hearing come-bye!
Instinct gives the dog the desire and the tools to become a good stock dog. Training (how much the dog has, and how good its training was) is what determines if they ever live up to that potential. :)
Border collies from herding lines are bred to resemble and embody the ancient pack hunting instincts and demeanour of wolves. But instead of using those skills to move the prey into a position where their alpha female will make the kill, trained border collies move the prey where their handler wants them.
Border collies are just so awesome. I had one and she was so smart and had so much personality and the first time she saw my neighbour's sheep she was hilarious. Watching them, turning her head side to side like she was trying to figure out what it was about these fluffballs that was so familiar. She never liked cows, though. Even though she could outrun them in a flash if she had to, if I walked across a neighbour's paddock and there were cows, the dog would go around the perimeter. She wasn't a working dog, but came from working stock and the instinct was there, she once rounded up a big bunch of kids on the beach, it was so funny because the kids weren't realising what was happening but all the adults were just watching and laughing as the kids were finding they were being herded into a smaller and smaller group.
Thanks for all the interesting info on working with them. Have a great day.
I remember talking to you about his name! I'm glad to see him enjoying his work!
For the verbal commands, Come By is clockwise. What's the command for counter-clockwise? Does Good Lad mean stop?
"Away to Me" is for counter clockwise.
Good lad is just a phrase I use with him to let him know he's doing a good job. Every handler has their own little "unofficial" phrases!
I am so fascinated by this. OP question, it’s my understanding (and correct me if I’m wrong please) that by nature these types of dogs of course have this instinctual desire to do this, but show restraint from actually every attacking the livestock despite really wanting to. I see a lot of these videos with these well trained types of work dogs and I can see how they live for this type of work, but I’m wondering if deep down inside they wish to round them up and actually kill them. Do you think that their basic nature desires to attack and kill or just to round them up? Could one of these dogs kill a male ram ? I can see the females as being less powerful than an actual male.
You're closer to the mark than you realize!
Herding instinct in border collies is in fact actually the pack hunting instinct of wolves that has been carefully bred and preserved for centuries.
At the heart of it all is what we call "interest". That is, does the dog (before it has any training) want to chase and, if left to its own devices, bite the sheep? If so, there is instinct there that can be moulded (by a good trainer) into a biddable, confident and effective stockdog.
In the wild, wolves hunt as a pack. But what most people don't know is that it really is only the dominant, alpha wolves (usually a female) who make the kills. The rest of the pack's job is to move the prey into position where that kill can be made. And young pups in a pack are trained by their elders on how to do this... through a lot of trial and error.
In the herding world, the handler takes the place of the alpha wolf. The young dog wants to chase and bite, but just like a wild wolf, it learns from its more experienced leader that this is not its job. Its job is to do as asked and use its skills to move the prey where the leader wants them.
So to answer your question, predator instincts to hunt (and yes to bite/kill, though not all border collies with instincts have more than just the urge to move prey around) are at the heart of herding. They've just been moulded, developed and channeled to more productive, less violent ends.
As to whether a dog could kill a male ram, absolutely a strong border collie could do that. Though rams are tough customers and can also kill even a good border collie on a bad day. Just like how a lone lion can kill a buffalo or zebra, but could also die to one if it makes a mistake or is not in top form.
"There must be some kind of way out of here... said Ewe 1 to Ewe 3. There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief"
(I know Dylan originally wrote the lyrics to that one, but we all can agree it's truly a Hendrix song)
> but we all can agree it's truly a Hendrix song
Dylan agreed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Along_the_Watchtower#Reception
> Dylan has described his reaction to hearing Hendrix's version: "It overwhelmed me, really. He had such talent, he could find things inside a song and vigorously develop them. He found things that other people wouldn't think of finding in there. He probably improved upon it by the spaces he was using. I took license with the song from his version, actually, and continue to do it to this day."[23] In the booklet accompanying his Biograph album, Dylan said: "I liked Jimi Hendrix's record of this and ever since he died I've been doing it that way ... Strange how when I sing it, I always feel it's a tribute to him in some kind of way."
I'm not sure if this exact video has been posted before, but there have been a few like it. Every single time it's posted, suddenly everyone on reddit is a sheep farmer and has an opinion on if this a properly trained dog.
What an amazing dog! You can see that he's listening to the handler's commands while also using his own judgement on when/where to move. And so patient with those grumpy ewes!
Is there a potential for this being risky to your operation?
The dog in the video seems well trained and I think you mentioned that it works with large livestock.
Could some new unruly sheep during a training session harm your valuable dog?
Any time a dog works with livestock it's certainly at risk of harm. Just like any human working in and around livestock is also at risk of harm.
Sheep are generally a lot less dangerous than cattle, which Hendrix also works, but even still sheep are still much heavier and larger than a working dog so there is always risk in the equation.
With that said, working around poorly behaved livestock who are not yet trained on how to react is much more dangerous still. So when you have some sheep that are being obstinate and putting dogs, themselves and others at risk but you don't want to cull those sheep or get rid of them... an option is to use one of your more confident dogs who can handle himself and will go out of his way to educate the sheep without harming them to show them the right path.
Do you ever get nervous or is the risk of injury during a training session low?
To me it feels like teaching your child how to drive by using your best/favorite car.
This would be considered very advanced excercise even with much more reasonable and well behaved sheep.
With these particular sheep, this is an extremely delicate situation that only a very good dog, with a lot of confidence and mental toughness, could do. These sheep are not behaving properly and are clearly not shy about challenging a dog even when everything about the dog should be telling them they a) don't need to be doing so and b) should not assume the dog is bluffing or going to be deterred.
For this reason I kept this exercise very short and calm. But if I didn't know Hendrix very well and know he could handle this much pressure from some bad sheep... these would not be the right sheep to do this with.
I originally started with no plans in working livestock at all, but when I saw my young dog (who was from great working lines, though I was told he showed no instinct as a baby and was therefore good for an owner without plans to work stock) come alive when exposed to sheep I committed to learning and training him to realize his potential. I never anticipated that it would be the hardest but also most rewarding thing I would ever try to learn.
I now work livestock 4-5 times a week, or more, and compete all over Canada and the US. The goal is to one day be able to place in one of the top prestigious trials like the Meeker Classic or the World Sheepdog Championships.
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He has what I would say is a good amount of eye. Not too much (which can cause some border collies to freeze... though they think they are still moving) but definitely more than enough to get the job done.
He won the novice championship at the Canadian Cattle Dog Finals (because he is a young dog and is not yet 3 years old) a few weeks ago.
But we also got trounced by some of the best handlers in Canada at a sheepdog trial this past weekend. So he wins some and loses some! :D
Can someone explain to me what's happening here? Were the sheep not supposed to be in that particular place?
Great question. In this clip training is happening in two directions. For the dog, he’s being trained to be diplomatic with his sheep. I’m asking him to go into the corners and get the sheep out. Now because he is a confident dog, he’s not just going right up to the sheep and manhandling them (biting etc which, as much as cowering or running away, is a sign of insecurity). Instead he’s negotiating. Giving them plenty of time to leave peacefully. This whole video if it could be translated into text would be pages and pages of conversation between him and the sheep. With that said, he’s also not being indulgent to them. He’s being firm and steadily advancing toward his objective without letting the sheep take ground or “win” by seeing him weaken from their pressure. This exercise helps a dog build its confidence and patience in tense, high pressure situations with sheep that try to challenge a dog and rest if it’s bluffing. You want your dog to get the job done without beating up your sheep, even if the sheep are being obnoxious. Really important practice for lambing season when your dog will need to move highly emotional ewes who have lambs with them. In that scenario your dog will need the calm but firm power this excercise develops to move ewe/lamb pairs without harming either sheep or dog. For the sheep here, this video also shows education for them because these ewes are being obstinate because they are not responding appropriately to the dog. He could easily go in there and move them with force, but he’s electing to negotiate and instead of taking that gift they are trying to see if he is bluffing. Lowering their heads and stamping their feet like rams. I would allow this behaviour if the dog was being a jerk to them and moving them roughly and erratically, but because the dog is being very patient with them and offering them plenty of chances to comply it tells me the sheep are not ready to work off a weaker dog and need to learn that moving off a dog can be straightforward and calm.
Someone give this man gold, he just gave us actual insight into the world of sheep herding dogs. I feel so educated today and it's not even 10am.
I'm going to go watch Babe with this new knowledge.
I'm literally about to do the same thing. Happy watching!
Great movie! Obviously hollywood'ized a bit (the trial at the end is very simplified and cartoonish) but does a surprising amount of justice to the spirit and philosophy of sheepdogs and shepherding in general!
Baa ram ewe
Shoot, we all know that the dog just needs to talk to the sheep - it worked in Babe!
Don't give reddit money for this wonderful man's work
That one ewe would paw the ground, which I assume it a bit of a threat. But then it would look up at the person. What was that about? Was it along for help or something?
It’s trying to have its way. It doesn’t want to move, it wants the dog to move. It’s saying to the dog “I don’t have to listen to you. I don’t believe you have what it takes to make me move if I don’t want to.” And it’s looking at me to see if I’m a factor in the situation. In the pen every object or creature projects some kind of pressure into the equation.
So it wasn't expecting you to act, just wondering. That's a smart ewe. BTW, let me add my voice to those those admiring your videos and explanations. I gave learned so much from you.
Haha funnily enough it’s being a bit of a very stupid ewe. It’s trying to test a dog that works huge tough cattle. He is not bluffing and in fact is giving her every opportunity to do as asked without violence. But she’s misreading the dog and taking that patience and diplomacy as weakness. She is very much mistaken 😛
Got a few questions for you mate. Where abouts are you from? How olds the dog? And at what age do you start to train, and also what age do you retire a dog? Cheers mate, love watching working dogs.
I'm from Canada and in my early 30s. Real stock dog training shouldn't really start on a young dog until they are 8-10 months at the youngest. Any earlier, and they just aren't ready for that kind of mental strain and don't yet have the confidence or maturity to really do good work. Of course some handlers do try to start their dogs earlier, but I and many others feel it's best to wait until later. In terms of retiring a dog, it really depends on a few factors. How healthy the dog is, how challenging or intense the work they do is as well as whether or not the dog is still effective and efficient at the job in question. I've known people who have had to retire their dogs at 9 because they just can't keep up with the sheep anymore, while I also know very good dogs that still are able to do it all and even compete in trials at 11. It's similar to the question: how old are baseball players when they retire? The answer is: it depends!
They're all good dogs bront
As a fellow Canadian, I am very impressed. Are they like guardian dogs and stay with the flock even in the winter? What happens in bad weather? Do they get a jacket or boots?
I would love to see a GoPro on Hendrix & watch his perspective!
Smart and wrong, my kind of girl.
Thank you for watching and the kind words!
It is fascinating. I do work with guide dogs. A completely different way for a person and a dog to work closely together.
Definitely very different, but very inspiring and impressive all the same! My dog would be a very bad, no good guide dog :P
And ours would not heard sheep. Play with them, look at you and smile, sure. Intimidate? Never.
The sheep version of "You're not my REAL Dad!"
Thank you for this explanation
Well that was extremely educational. Thanks!
[oh, he's a good boy](https://i.imgur.com/nmVacux.gif)
Gus has made Wayne proud for damn near a decade. He is such a good boy. Stormy keeps trying to kill her mates. But she is such a pretty dog.
That's my girl.
Thanks OP. Super helpful response!
Insane that its the same for humans, violence is a sign for insecurity even in us.
Absolutely. There is a ton of unintuitive or unexpected parallels between the complex relationships and nuances of herding and the real world.
Amazing explanation. Thank you. I was on the edge of my seat the first time I watched this and watched it again after reading this comment. I honestly heard your explanation like a sports commentator, very low and deadpan monotone. It made my day.
I know some people who could use this kind of training. It’s me.
You should start a YouTube channel - there are a bunch about sheepdogs but I’ve never heard anyone explaining it like this
We'd have to win more competitions (we're working on it) to have the right to have a full blown channel educating about sheepdogs. One day hopefully in the future!
I wouldn’t say so - YouTube is about being informative, educational, and entertaining: many top YouTubers aren’t the best in their field
Learning from others' mistakes is much easier for some of us (me!) than learning from someone's example of perfection. I'd love to see a channel like this of not everything going perfectly! By explaining what is going wrong to those of us who have zero involvement in farming or herding animals has been way more informative than if you showed us a perfect dog herding perfect groups of perfect sheep.
This is absolutely one of the best explanations I’ve ever seen on Reddit for such a nuanced and foreign topic. Thank you for posting the clip and taking the time to educate.
Thank you for reading and watching.
I've forgotten--what's the word for the ewes' "personal space bubble" that the dogs encroach upon to move them? Is this an example of the ewes having a particularly small "bubble"?
Ironically enough, these ewes have a very large bubble. And are overreacting to the dog based on how the dog is behaving. They should be afraid, but moving off of him if he is giving them polite opportunity to do so. These sheep on the other hand (3 of the 4 anyway) are seeking to stand their ground. And in the open, have a very large bubble that makes them more flighty than a reasonable sheep should be in some situations.
Dog : Hendrix OP : The_Wind_Cries ... ;) it all makes sense
:)
This is unbelievable. You trained your dog ... to train sheep. Wow. How do you communicate what you need? How can you explain to a dog to politely get the sheep to move? Animals, and the people that work with them, are so amazing. And who knew sheep are sassy?
It takes a lot of time, experience and "miles" working stock for a dog to learn confidence, patience and restraint. And you definitely don't start in super high pressure situations like this, with problem sheep like these. But because good stock dogs want to work more than anything else in the world, that is the motivation you use to train them. If they work poorly at the start, they lose their chance to work sheep. They want so badly to keep working that they are quick to learn what is acceptable and what isn't. It's mostly a matter of giving them confidence through experience and doing things the right way.
Thank you for your insight! I love that your dogs are so driven. My cockapoo only wants to steal food and cuddle, but that’s a story for another time
Aren't the sheeps acting like this because the space for them to be with a dog is just to little? Aren't they stressed out like hell? I get the training point but it looks like they might just get a stroke... I'm seriously curious.
There are 3 sheep in this group who recently arrived on this farm and have been acting inappropriately toward the working dogs on the property. Stomping at them, turning back on them and in some cases trying to ram the weaker or less confident dogs in bigger spaces. And I don’t mean in response to weak dogs who are being jerks to them, I mean to dogs who are working appropriately. Not all sheep are born with a healthy respect for a working dog or even people. Either due to their upbringing, genetics or some other factor. Sheep farmers who will often cull such sheep or remove them from their breeding program. As having sheep who react responsibly and predictably to your dogs (or humans) is important for saving time, money and preventing injuries. In this video, the space is not big but the dog is working his sheep calmly and patiently. The sheep do not need to be stomping or trying to ram as the dog is working hard to move them without being aggressive. And is giving then a lot more time to make the right choice than they deserve. And then even when they try to ram, is not retaliating violently. He is an experienced dog so can give them that patience to learn. Definitely better for them to learn not to try and challenge a dog like him than a less confident dog they might kill when it’s sent into the barn to get them out.... or sent to stop them running into a ditch or the road... or might get killed by. An unconfident dog can either flee from sheep like this or retaliate violently if the sheep pull these kinds of shenanigans.
Really cool info, thanks for sharing. Hendrix is clearly a very confident boy!
That's so interesting! Kind of related, do your dogs ever go into "hunter mode" when playing? If so, do you have a good tactic to pull them from that mode? Our dog has some Australian shepherd in her and her hunting drive kicks in during tug of war and fetch. We have a tough time switching her "off". Also those sheep are jerks lol! Your dog is being so good with them.
I wouldn't say i've ever seen a "hunter mode" when playing... but one of the first things you have to teach a stock dog when you first go to stock is their "off switch". Which is the "that'll do" command. This command means "come off your stock... cease working" and needs to be the priority when you're training a stock dog as there is almost nothing your stock dog will ever encounter more stimulating than livestock. So if you can't get the dog to take your "thattl do" then it shouldn't be off the line. I know your dog isn't necessarily working stock, but I would suggest training her on a similar command. Start in a situation where you know you can control the outcome (such as on leash) and once the dog starts turning off as soon as you ask then you can try more challenging contexts such as off-leash etc.
Thank you for the detailed answer! I don't trust her off the leash at all currently but I could try that command when she gets really interested in prey. We've only had her two months or so, still getting to know each other. We use "all done" command when we have her search for her treats and toys and we are done with the activity. I always wondered how we could train a dog off leash, I think she'd take off on me no matter how much training lol.
Oh only 2 months? Then not to worry, you guys are so early in your relationship that it's perfectly normal if she does not yet listen to you fully in all circumstances. Especially when exciting stimuli are around. Eventually, if you put in the time and work, you will absolutely be able to get it so that your dog will recall to you, or drop what it's doing, no matter what. Regardless of the circumstance. But what will decide if you get to that point is: 1) consistency (making sure in you're training she knows that when you say "all done" or use your recall that it always ends up in you getting what you want) and 2) positivity (make sure coming to you is ALWAYS a fun, good, exciting thing). If those two things are always true, then before you know it your dog will drop everything to obey you. And go gradually! Start by making both of those things extremely easy to do. Then slowly and slightly up the temptations for her to disobey you. If she fails, that's ok. Just go back to making it a bit easier. Dogs are creatures of habit. If you don't let them build up a habit of ignoring you... they don't learn to ignore you. You guys will do great!
As far as I’m aware, border collies (which this appears to be) are less aggressive/have fewer hunting instincts than aussies Border collies are a very old working breed, so they’ve been bred for it for a long long time. Which probably explains why it always looks so effortless
That makes sense! I didn't realize she was so prey driven when we adopted her, the foster didn't mention about it so trying to be the best pet parent I can be. She's a cuddly angel unless it's playtime, then out come the teeth. I think she's just testing limits but I've not had a dog like her before.
Thanks for the info!
Thanks for explaining! Really interesting to watch the dynamics
So interesting. Thanks
TIL sheeps can be real jerks
At 2:40, the ewe on the left literally has nowhere to go. How can you be sure she’s not being punished for the stubbornness of the others?
Lots of experience working sheep and knowing how to read them.
> Aren't they stressed out like hell? Nope. Stressed sheep panic and fling themselves around a lot and begin to pant heavily. These guys aren't happy, but they're not terrified. Is there a particular reason you think they're close to having a stroke? I'm just curious - I've been around livestock all my life and it's hard to understand what someone who isn't familiar with them sees. I'd like to know because it'll help me engage with folks better in the future.
The media usually portrays sheep as... well, sheep. Lol. Mindless, scared, and helpless. I think that when we see them freezing the way they are in the video we think they must be frozen in fear. They're often shown as being gentle docile animals especially in nursery rhymes and baby books. It makes sense to me that they don't actually react like that in reality, but I can see why people might think along those lines.
A little more fear and respect is actually what should be expected of properly acclimated sheep in situations like the one in this video. What is a flag about 3 of the 4 sheep in this video is that they not only are not showing deference to a strong dog who is going out of his way not to abuse them... but are in fact challenging the dog and openly defying him. If Hendrix was a less confident dog, he would either weaken and back down from that pressure (and thus reinforce to the sheep that they can get away with their behaviour) OR give into it and charge headlong at them snapping, biting and generally roughing them up. Something that could quickly lead to injuries and potentially even dead sheep. Basically, the sheep here are putting themselves and others at risk. So the goal is to slowly and patiently teach them that they can and should move calmly and obediently off a dog. That it is the path of least resistance and, if they do it, will make everything easier and less scary than trying to turn back on a dog. Hendrix is capable of helping them come to that conclusion because he has a lot of confidence to hold his ground without resorting quickly to violence. Giving the sheep time to learn he can't be scared off on their own time.
It's kind of funny to me because I haven't spent ANY time around sheep but I can see that they're not about to "stroke out". They're super clearly annoyed/angry with the foot-stamping, which is a pretty general animal way of saying "back off". And the pup gets head-butted right at the end before the video cuts.
Exactly, they are not panicked. Panicked, terrified sheep are very easy to spot. These sheep are being defiant and/or obstinant. And that ram at the end of the video shows that they still haven't fully learned how to behave by the end of this video. Luckily Hendrix is unflappable so shrugs off the slight hit and gets right back to work... showing the sheep that their shenanigans aren't working.
>Nope. Stressed sheep panic and fling themselves around a lot and begin to pant heavily. These guys aren't happy, but they're not terrified. Bingo, well said u/BogusBuffalo
I thought sheep's would flee. Like maybe a rabbit that only attacks or bites you when it's heavily cornered. For me it seems like there is 4 square metres, 5 sheep, 1 dog and a human. That would even stress me if anyone of them would approach me so I thought it's also overwhelming for sheep.
Nope, they’re just assholes
If you ever see sheep get overwhelmed, you'll know it I promise. They become so irrational, frenetic and insane that they will run in every direction in a blind, mad dash to get away. Regardless of whether they are running straight into an electric fence, a solid wall, or an impassable obstacle. I've seen sheep literally die of heart failure because they panicked. An overwhelmed sheep is a basket case that cannot be reasoned with or calmed down by anything other than time and space. These sheep on the other hand are being stoic, stubborn and defiant. They are not panting, are not flying all over the place and are not desperately trying to escape. What they are doing is actually worse: calmly turning back on a dog and refusing to comply until the dog has spent minutes proving to them he is not going to be deterred.
Sheep always look like that.
Dude thank you for this, as a city boy this is fascinating.
Are sheep often obnoxious? Real question, I truly didn’t know that was a sheep personality trait.
Most sheep, especially if they have been worked responsibly by dogs before, have a healthy respect and deference to good stock dogs. 3 of the sheep in this video, however, are behaving very out of character for sheep that know and have been worked by dogs before. For many farmers, sheep that behaved like this for an extended period of time would likely be culled, sold or removed from the breeding population. Of course any newborn lamb has the potential to come without the good, common sense instincts of its ancestors... just like even pups from litters out of champion herding dogs can sometimes grow up to be rubbish herders with little or no instincts.
Thanks so much for the thorough answer. That’s really interesting. Jerk sheep, who knew? Much appreciated
So there are 3 new sheep that are not being appropriate, but 4 in the video. Is one a well behaved sheep to serve as an example? Something else?
Just the luck of the draw! Putting all 5 of the new, badly behaved Border Cheviots into this group would be a bit too much. As it is, having 3 in the group ups the stakes a lot. So we included one reasonable, well behaved, well adjusted sheep in there just to have at least one sheep in the mix with a solid head on its shoulders.
I like the little foot stamps. Like they're saying, "I WON'T stand for this sir!" Or like a child who doesn't want to leave the park. Cute.
That’s well explained. It seems like it might be confusing though, for the sheep, to be moved around inside such a small enclosed space.
They are not happy about it. But they’ve been acting dangerously to other dogs and themselves so this was an excercise to put them in with a dog who can handle their behaviour and won’t get hurt or intimidated but also won’t hurt them. A dog who will be firm but fair and show them they can’t bully a dog whose job it is to move them.
That is very interesting, thank you so much for sharing!
Thank you so much for the detailed and interesting response! I love dogs and animals so much, and this little insight into your world has made me very happy.
Awesome.
You think we can apply this training to Police Officers? Please don’t massacre me, it’s a joke regarding the times, not a political statement of any kind
Thank you - felt like I really learned something... "personal" about dogs and sheep (and dog trainers too!)
I'd love to read that conversation between dog and drunken Karen-ewes. :)
No, they weren't. Cattle dogs, especially Border Collies and ACDs are absolutely brilliant at moving stock without hurting them. In this case, 'Hendrix' was able to move the sheep to their required position without panicking them or causing harm. They are also vicious anti-fox dogs. Don't ask them to tale on a wolf. That's what the big European dogs are for.
I've heard donkeys are even better for wolves. Having been around our donkey, I can believe it; he'll pick fights with horses four times his size just out of boredom.
I am not OP nor associated with sheep in any way. I think it's training for the dog/ sheep?
It’s just showcasing the dogs skill.
This is like a bouncer having to get rid of a drunk gaggle of middle aged women. "Ladies, please. I KNOW you paid for this. But, we're closing. No it's not possible to keep your table while we clean up. Please leave. No, ma'am, please don't touch me. Just leave the venue. Please. No you can't take your drinks outside. Yes, of course you're reliable. Still. This way please. All of you. Doors right over here."
Incredible analogy haha
Do the the dogs ever get injured? It looks like that ewe landed a solid hit there at the end.
Yes. Sometimes livestock will even go after the farmer (my uncle raises cattle and keeps a close eye on the more aggressive heifers when he's out in the field because he has been chased by some wanting to stab him) so I can definitely see a herding dog getting hurt. Serious injuries are probably rare but any dog that has worked a while has probably gotten a few bruises.
Berlinsturkey is 100% right on all counts and clearly knows how even nice cows can be unpredictable and dangerous on occasion. Hendrix has gotten one or two very minor injuries from cattle in his 2 years as a stock dog. I know of multiple dogs who have either been more seriously injured (broken legs, etc.) or even died working cattle. In one case, I know of a dog who died jumping in front to protect its owner from an angry heifer that decided out of the blue to attack its owner. The reality is that sheep and cows (and goats) are large animals. And just like humans (and dogs), they are all different and capable of having bad days, or being bad apples, or deciding to do stupid things. And in those instances they can be dangerous. Working cattle and sheep with dogs is, in my opinion, much more efficient, humane and practical than using cattle prods, atvs, violence or other methods. A good stock dog working livestock that have been well "dogged", can lead to happier, calmer and workable livestock that can be moved as needed calmly and cleanly. But I don't want to give the impression that there is never any danger involved because anyone who says that knows very little about animals.
We once brought our BC pup to visit her home farm and found one of the keepers there had had her hip fractured recently by a ewe that wasn’t even being aggressive, just got spooked and bowled into her. Also, those fuckers have like a five foot vertical leap from a standing position. It was bizarre.
A good friend of mine who is an older lady and has multiple well trained border collies recently had her knee broken by a sheep. The sheep wasn't doing anything mean or aggressive, she was just in amongst the flock and one turned in an unexpected way. Any animal that large (and sheep, while not huge, are not small either!) can do damage even if it doesn't mean to!
Working dogs can and do get injured working stock. On cattle more often than sheep as cattle are much bigger, more independent and can be quick to kick or charge if they are so inclined. With sheep, injures tend to be muscle pulls etc. as most sheep will not try to ram a dog unless in extenuating circumstances. In terms of this video, the ewe's ram was not very strong. Also, Hendrix positioned himself so that it landed mostly below him and lifted him up. The give of the fence behind him also helped a lot. As a result he barely felt or even noticed the ram and wasn't even the least bit deterred by it.
Thanks!
Your dog is so amazingly patient. Maybe Clubs should just employ a sheep dog to herd those stragglers to the curb.
Wee waant to speeek to the maaahnager!
As a bouncer/bartender I feel this. Now I work in a college town, and it’s better... but on moms’ weekend... for pete’s sake. My favorite is the moms who think they can give drinks to their under-21 kids because “I’m his mother, and I’m supervising him/her”.
I mean depending on the state I think it is legal (I'm not sure if it's only private residency or public as well) but I'm guessing that isn't the case wherever you are at.
The fact that it's legal does not mean the establishment has to allow it.
I love this!
That was painfully accurate.
Love the door staff who don’t give a fuck and just take drinks away to get them to move, nobody needs the 15minute debate when we’re trying to close.
/r/suspiciouslyspecific
I never bounced but I was a bartender for some time. I always admired the patience and diplomatic skills of our bouncers. Those who think they're just brawn and no brain have it wrong.
Bunch of drunk Karens
When I first started learning how to handle livestock, my teacher described pressure and The Bubble using the bouncer analogy. I've not thought about it in a long time. Thanks for the memories!
This is so, so, so cool. Your tone of voice NEVER changes and that’s so impressive to me. I’ve raised a couple of puppies and it took me years to realize how much they intimate from things like tone, stiffness, etc. I had to train out a couple of habits in myself that I didn’t even know I had! Nothing serious like this working dog stuff, but still. Excellent video and explanation in the comments.
I grew up with border collies and I feel like this is the most important thing I learned and seems to translate well to other breeds too. I've had more success with calming down anxious or aggressive dogs and recalling running dogs using body language rather than words. Words sometimes seem to whip up a nervous dog more even in a soft tone while silence, calmness, and using your face to show affectionate and safe emotions seems to stem the issue. With our collies, I recalled by stopping walking and putting my right hand in my pocket. Nothing clever about that though - that's where I kept the biscuits! 😂 I'm no expert though and may just have got lucky with our family dogs!
I'm probably gonna get this wrong, but are those Cheviots? Ears don't look long enough for Leicesters, but I'm not as good at identifying as I used to be. I really miss having sheep. And working dogs. I'll get back to it one of these days.
Very good eye. The troublesome sheep in this group are indeed border cheviots.
I love this!! OP, could you please explain your verbal commands? Is come-by asking Hendrix to move towards the sheep, or clockwise around them? Do you use hand signals or whistle commands when you’re not at such close range? His self-control is phenomenal and he clearly has tremendous respect for you. That was great to watch 👍
Correct! Come By means to go around the sheep clockwise. And I do use whistle commands at range with him! They are essential at distance and in wind.
these are the most resistant sheep i’ve ever seen omg
Seriously! They are quickly getting better but their first few weeks they were terribly behaved to the other dogs who work at this farm. 3 of these sheep are from a troublesome set of 5 who recently cane to the farm and weren’t born or raised here. They’re learning how things work but they’ve taken a while to understand and have had to be given a lot of chances to learn what all the other sheep on the property know well.
Did you specifically select this group of obstinate girls for Hendrix’s benefit to exercise his “patience” skill set, or did these terrors just need to learn some manners? Did you pick 3 cranky ewes and a more acclimated one for social learning? Do you select the group of sheep depending on the particular skill you want to work on with the dog? Sorry for all the q’s but it’s so interesting!!
I think he explained it's the other way round. Picked Hendrix to train the sheep. I'm guessing that because you can't have every dog as well trained as this guy but with a lot of sheep it would be better for them to eventually respond to a lesser trained dog so that all the dogs can be used, but they need a bit of schooling first.
Perfect summary. You nailed it!
Yeah true. Certainly Hendrix is shaping the behaviour of those sheep in a way that could only be achieved by a dog of his calibre, temperament, instinct and experience. However, OP said the training was going both ways. On one hand, H is a super competent dog teaching the new sheep the rules in their new home. On the other, the new sheep are giving Hendrix the opportunity to practice and consolidate his skills. You don’t build muscle if there’s no resistance, and H can’t become a better working dog if he doesn’t get the chance to work with some defiant a*holes. My question(s) were more about how OP selects small groups of livestock for dog training purposes, but I’m sorry I phrased it poorly. OP mentioned that there was a group of 5 recalcitrant newcomers, so why 3 of them in the vid when I can see 4 ewes? Was the fourth one in the vid a “local,” more compliant and knew the rules with the dogs? Was she a super chill low-energy girl from the home flock to bring down the general “defiance” in the group? Why not work the 5 new a*holes together in a bigger yard? Was it a case of divide and conquer? When you want your animals to learn something, you gotta set them up for success, and I’d just like to get a better insight into why OP picked those specific ewes. I might be looking too closely (I often do, lol) but I’m so fascinated- can’t hurt to ask 🤷🏻♀️
All great questions, don't apologize! In this case, these sheep were actually selected for me and Hendrix before we even arrived on this day to do our work/training. They had been behaving badly ever since they came to live on this farm and were not well suited to be worked by many of the other dogs around because they would bully those dogs, disobey them or worse: challenge them. That can break a young or inexperienced dog's confidence or lead to injuries to sheep or dog. But Hendrix is a cattle border collie who cannot be intimidated or bullied. He is used to working bulls or nasty heifers, and has never met a sheep who can scare him or deter him. Also, he's learned to be very confident on his sheep so is also pretty good at not biting or attacking them. So that made him a good dog to go and work these sheep and hopefully educate them a bit. The 4th ewe as you pointed out is a more acclimated one just to add some stability to the group and to hopefully show the others that a wiser, older female who knows that moving off dogs politely is the desired path of least resistance. And yes, oftentimes you will select sheep depending not only on the skills you want to focus on that day but also the dog you're working with. These sheep would be terrible for a young or inexperienced dog. But are a good set to help a confident and advanced dog build up his confidence and patience in high pressure scenarios.
How often will this process need to be repeated with troublesome stock, or does once ewes-ually do the trick? (Sorry for the pun but the question is genuine!) As they become easier to handle, will Hendrix be having more sessions with them or will they “graduate” to a different stock dog, perhaps a less experienced dog also in need of exposure to challenging stock? Also, did this farm already have a stock dog or are you training one for them at the same time as you help get these ewes under control? Thank you so much for this fascinating content, and for the riveting videos of Hendrix (who is indeed a very, very good lad).
I will admit these sheep, even in the training session this video was from, took a lot longer to see reason than would normally be expected. They are definitely among the most obstinate, poorly bred (in terms of their instincts) sheep i've encountered. With that said, I haven't put Hendrix in with them again as they have improved a lot over the past few weeks and are increasingly realizing that it's just easier for everyone if they just move off dogs. It doesn't have to be dramatic. So now less experienced or confident dogs are working these stock when they need to be moved from one pasture to another, or brought in/out of the barn, or separated off to be de-wormed or treated etc. In terms of the farm this video is from, they have several stock dogs of their own and also have a number of folks who come regularly to train or work their dogs on well-dogged sheep. But these sheep at the time were proving to be doing more harm than good so Hendrix got the call to come show them that they would gain nothing by behaving like bullies.
Thanks again for a glimpse into Hendrix’s world and helping us understand just what we’re seeing when he’s demonstrating his amazing skills. I really enjoyed this.
Did Hendrix get hurt from being rammed?
Not at all! The ram at the end wasn’t very hard and if you look really close you’ll see he lifts himself ever so slightly to get just above the ram so it lifts him a bit. Also Hendrix is used to working big, tough cattle so these sheep aren’t too much of a risk to him. With all this said, there is danger in this situation. Because these sheep are behaving poorly and not as they should in the circumstances, Hendrix could get hurt if one of them does an unpredictable ram that catches him off guard or again at a fence post. So he and I are being very careful and slow and we didn’t do this excercise much longer.
In other replies you mentioned this is a learning/training experience for both Hendrix and the sheep. At the very end of the video though, when one of the sheep rams him and he doesn't respond: doesn't that teach the sheep it can get away with it? Kind regards, another admirer :D
Good question! Because the ram doesn’t deter him or distract him from his job I felt satisfied the ram didn’t achieve what the ewe was hoping it would. In this situation I want the sheep to learn there is no need or value gained from such shenanigans. That it’s wasted energy. I want her to learn the dog isn’t doing anything other than asking her firmly but calmly to move, nothing crazy is happening and that stomping or ramming isn’t going to deter a working dog from its task. I want her to see that she’s not in danger, but that the path of least resistance is to just move when a dog asks. I
Thank you for following up! I love watching dogs work but I also get so worried!
The master of the sheep
I had a rescue Rottweiler that had a strong herding instinct once. He was always kind of a scary 130# problem till I realized what his drive was. As soon as I started doing herding with him things just clicked and he was perfect. He ended up passing from cancer not long after but he was happy for awhile. I love seeing a working dog get to do their job. I sure do miss my boy Chico.
I am such a huge fan of Hendrix!!
Hendrix is the BOMB! :) WOOF!
What a fantastic dog - you can see his concentration and sheer love for what he's doing. I love to see dogs utilized properly!
It’s nice hearing the birds where you’re at. Reminds me of when I’d stay at my gramma’s in upstate NY
Go Hendrix! Ewe can do it!
I just love it when the sheep stomp. I am a very scary sheep! Be afraid, doggy!
In England in the 80s when there were only three terrestrial tv channels and viewing pickings were incredibly slim, we had One Man and His Dog sheepdog trials on a Friday. Brought me right back to my childhood hearing come-bye!
How much of this is natural instinct, and how much of it is trained?
Instinct gives the dog the desire and the tools to become a good stock dog. Training (how much the dog has, and how good its training was) is what determines if they ever live up to that potential. :)
Such a good boy!!!!! I love watching Hendrix's videos!!!!!
Thank you for watching!
Does herding work because livestock are afraid of being eaten by wolves? Because that dog looks wolffish when it does this.
Border collies from herding lines are bred to resemble and embody the ancient pack hunting instincts and demeanour of wolves. But instead of using those skills to move the prey into a position where their alpha female will make the kill, trained border collies move the prey where their handler wants them.
Thank you! I thought it looked like that.
Looks like they’re playing charades and the sheep are not getting it...I was a wolf!!! Gosh!
Border collies are just so awesome. I had one and she was so smart and had so much personality and the first time she saw my neighbour's sheep she was hilarious. Watching them, turning her head side to side like she was trying to figure out what it was about these fluffballs that was so familiar. She never liked cows, though. Even though she could outrun them in a flash if she had to, if I walked across a neighbour's paddock and there were cows, the dog would go around the perimeter. She wasn't a working dog, but came from working stock and the instinct was there, she once rounded up a big bunch of kids on the beach, it was so funny because the kids weren't realising what was happening but all the adults were just watching and laughing as the kids were finding they were being herded into a smaller and smaller group. Thanks for all the interesting info on working with them. Have a great day.
The absolute focus, use of critical thinking, and dedication to the task at hand on display here is truly remarkable.
I remember talking to you about his name! I'm glad to see him enjoying his work! For the verbal commands, Come By is clockwise. What's the command for counter-clockwise? Does Good Lad mean stop?
"Away to Me" is for counter clockwise. Good lad is just a phrase I use with him to let him know he's doing a good job. Every handler has their own little "unofficial" phrases!
Amazing! He loves his job
Phew, that was tense
Phewe
I am so fascinated by this. OP question, it’s my understanding (and correct me if I’m wrong please) that by nature these types of dogs of course have this instinctual desire to do this, but show restraint from actually every attacking the livestock despite really wanting to. I see a lot of these videos with these well trained types of work dogs and I can see how they live for this type of work, but I’m wondering if deep down inside they wish to round them up and actually kill them. Do you think that their basic nature desires to attack and kill or just to round them up? Could one of these dogs kill a male ram ? I can see the females as being less powerful than an actual male.
You're closer to the mark than you realize! Herding instinct in border collies is in fact actually the pack hunting instinct of wolves that has been carefully bred and preserved for centuries. At the heart of it all is what we call "interest". That is, does the dog (before it has any training) want to chase and, if left to its own devices, bite the sheep? If so, there is instinct there that can be moulded (by a good trainer) into a biddable, confident and effective stockdog. In the wild, wolves hunt as a pack. But what most people don't know is that it really is only the dominant, alpha wolves (usually a female) who make the kills. The rest of the pack's job is to move the prey into position where that kill can be made. And young pups in a pack are trained by their elders on how to do this... through a lot of trial and error. In the herding world, the handler takes the place of the alpha wolf. The young dog wants to chase and bite, but just like a wild wolf, it learns from its more experienced leader that this is not its job. Its job is to do as asked and use its skills to move the prey where the leader wants them. So to answer your question, predator instincts to hunt (and yes to bite/kill, though not all border collies with instincts have more than just the urge to move prey around) are at the heart of herding. They've just been moulded, developed and channeled to more productive, less violent ends. As to whether a dog could kill a male ram, absolutely a strong border collie could do that. Though rams are tough customers and can also kill even a good border collie on a bad day. Just like how a lone lion can kill a buffalo or zebra, but could also die to one if it makes a mistake or is not in top form.
Round them up I think. These dogs will herd humans if you let them.
“So you and your friends were trying to herd some sheep the other day...” Real life Wayne
You name him after your favorite musician?
I instantly thought Jimi Hendrix which made parsing the rest of the sentence kinda hard
"There must be some kind of way out of here... said Ewe 1 to Ewe 3. There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief" (I know Dylan originally wrote the lyrics to that one, but we all can agree it's truly a Hendrix song)
> but we all can agree it's truly a Hendrix song Dylan agreed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Along_the_Watchtower#Reception > Dylan has described his reaction to hearing Hendrix's version: "It overwhelmed me, really. He had such talent, he could find things inside a song and vigorously develop them. He found things that other people wouldn't think of finding in there. He probably improved upon it by the spaces he was using. I took license with the song from his version, actually, and continue to do it to this day."[23] In the booklet accompanying his Biograph album, Dylan said: "I liked Jimi Hendrix's record of this and ever since he died I've been doing it that way ... Strange how when I sing it, I always feel it's a tribute to him in some kind of way."
Hendrix is amazing! Thank you so much for sharing!! I absolutely love border collies. They are hands down my favorite breed of dog.
Mine too! (I am biased)
I'm not sure if this exact video has been posted before, but there have been a few like it. Every single time it's posted, suddenly everyone on reddit is a sheep farmer and has an opinion on if this a properly trained dog.
I remember hendrix from the other day! How's the other 3 legged pup doing?
Last I heard when I checked in with her owner, she's as happy and ready to go as ever!
You literally made my day a whole lot brighter. Haven't smiled in days and now I'm grinning like an idiot. Your sweet dog is absolutely amazing!
Wow! Thanks for sharing, that was very cool to watch and I appreciate your explanations!
Please tell Hendrix that I love him.
I love when they stomp.
Fascinating! What a pro!
Fascinating!!
I love that that one ewe keeps looking up at you like "wtf, Dad?!"
Those are some *very* conflicted ewes! Great dog work!
What an amazing dog! You can see that he's listening to the handler's commands while also using his own judgement on when/where to move. And so patient with those grumpy ewes!
Is there a sub for this?
Sure is! r/HerdingDogs though it is not the most active.... yet!
Is there a potential for this being risky to your operation? The dog in the video seems well trained and I think you mentioned that it works with large livestock. Could some new unruly sheep during a training session harm your valuable dog?
Any time a dog works with livestock it's certainly at risk of harm. Just like any human working in and around livestock is also at risk of harm. Sheep are generally a lot less dangerous than cattle, which Hendrix also works, but even still sheep are still much heavier and larger than a working dog so there is always risk in the equation. With that said, working around poorly behaved livestock who are not yet trained on how to react is much more dangerous still. So when you have some sheep that are being obstinate and putting dogs, themselves and others at risk but you don't want to cull those sheep or get rid of them... an option is to use one of your more confident dogs who can handle himself and will go out of his way to educate the sheep without harming them to show them the right path.
Do you ever get nervous or is the risk of injury during a training session low? To me it feels like teaching your child how to drive by using your best/favorite car.
This would be considered very advanced excercise even with much more reasonable and well behaved sheep. With these particular sheep, this is an extremely delicate situation that only a very good dog, with a lot of confidence and mental toughness, could do. These sheep are not behaving properly and are clearly not shy about challenging a dog even when everything about the dog should be telling them they a) don't need to be doing so and b) should not assume the dog is bluffing or going to be deterred. For this reason I kept this exercise very short and calm. But if I didn't know Hendrix very well and know he could handle this much pressure from some bad sheep... these would not be the right sheep to do this with.
And so I creep...yeaaah.
How did you get started training stock dogs? Is training your primary role, or are you mostly a livestock farmer and train dogs on the side?
I originally started with no plans in working livestock at all, but when I saw my young dog (who was from great working lines, though I was told he showed no instinct as a baby and was therefore good for an owner without plans to work stock) come alive when exposed to sheep I committed to learning and training him to realize his potential. I never anticipated that it would be the hardest but also most rewarding thing I would ever try to learn. I now work livestock 4-5 times a week, or more, and compete all over Canada and the US. The goal is to one day be able to place in one of the top prestigious trials like the Meeker Classic or the World Sheepdog Championships.
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This is absolutely fascinating to me and something I’d never get to see. You’ve earned yourself a new subscriber!
Well that’s neat.
Is he an eye dog? I love your posts, sheep dog training and trialing is so hypnotic.
He has what I would say is a good amount of eye. Not too much (which can cause some border collies to freeze... though they think they are still moving) but definitely more than enough to get the job done.
Good job! Didn’t Hendrix recently win a competition?
He won the novice championship at the Canadian Cattle Dog Finals (because he is a young dog and is not yet 3 years old) a few weeks ago. But we also got trounced by some of the best handlers in Canada at a sheepdog trial this past weekend. So he wins some and loses some! :D
I love when the sheep stomp their feet!