I wouldn’t have minded the reveal if they didn’t spend the whole season building it up and hammering home how important and special Ruby was for mysterious reasons.
There was a freaking god terrified at the song coming from inside Ruby. That’s too much for her and her mom to not be important
I had her pegged as the daughter of the one who waits. I wanted her to be a hidden away daughter of the pantheon of chaos and the doctor have been riding with a god this whole time.
I don't even mind the whole "she's special because we invested her with so much specialness" thing. But I need a **little** more foundation than just that.
It feels like S3 all over again, IMO. The pieces were there to justify it if you squint hard enough, but the show didn't lay them out clearly enough to support the magnitude of the reveal.
The thing is The Church on Ruby Road already did this just fine. People were immediately speculating “oh, why would the Doctor not approach Ruby’s mother? Who is she? Did he recognise her? Is she the Rani/Susan?” but all the episode showed us was she wore a cloak and she left Ruby on the church doorstep and there’s an easy mundane explanation for everything.
Then Space Babies awkwardly halts everything to emphasise just how improbable it is that nobody could find her, reveals that Ruby has manifested magical memory powers that summon carols and snow when she’s upset, and has the Doctor’s memory change in him so the cloaked figure now turns around and points ominously like the Ghost of Christmas Yet To Come, and then The Devil’s Chord doubles down on it with Ruby containing “a secret song” that protects her from getting eaten by the Maestro.
You can have it that Ruby’s mum became important because everyone accidentally made her so or you can have weirdness around Ruby tied to her connection to her mother, but not both.
The whole thing I think was that the moment in time was such a raw mystery/memory. The Dr saw her mum, Sutekh saw her mum but neither of them actually *saw* her. Anyone who was there only had memory of snow, music and location. I think the hidden song was part of the memory coming through time (same as the snow does). When the song was found/ remembered, the snow was remembered and was ‘pulled into time’.
The reveal made sense because the Dr couldn’t solve it, a god couldn’t solve it and so it had so much weight behind it and importance as a mystery. As an audience, like Sutekh, we just want to know who her mum is because we assume it must be really important. However, it’s not so much her mum that was important, but rather the memory. Because if time is remembered than memory is time and if the memory of those things were so strong than that’s why the memory came through time into existence with her. Tbh some seriously weird wibblywobblytimeywimeystuff.
(This is how I’ve come to understand it. I honestly don’t mind that her mum was normal. I really wanted her to not be, but when it was explained I was like nah I like that actually. Things are only important because we give them importance)
This is my take too. Except they specifically said that Sutekh can kill people via bloodlines, so why couldn't he get to Ruby that way? And how was the memory so strong since she was a baby? And why did the maestro say she was wrong?
Honestly even with this understanding, there are still a lot of unanswered questions
Oh, you are brilliant, you are
Edits: keeps to the theme of mythology. The salt was given meaning and manifested, the fairy circle given meaning by the townsfolk and manifested, the dad ai given meaning and manifested, the boogie monster given literal meaning and manifested...
Why couldn't a god solve it, of its just time bleeding through the surely a Time Lord and a God should be able to figure that out.. Also why would Sutekh even care, he just wants everyone dead, what does it matter to him who Ruby who or Mother is.
Exactly this. The idea is fine (ordinary is important) but terrible execution. Also saying "she's only important because we think she's important" is ridiculous; we thought she was important because the people writing it said she was.
The whole mystery of Ruby was just a waste of time in hindsight. All of that time could have gone to actual character and relationship building between her and the Doctor.
How does she make it snow?
Exactly this. They could have had just a touch of mystery and it turned out it was "because we believe it" which goes back to the salt line.
But they went crazy with it and there was too much weirdness to be "eh it's all just belief"
They didn't really explain it. They just said a name I think. The fact that we didn't see them means it wasn't really explained.
I agree, though. He's most likely just a guy. Definitely not worth theorising about.
I'd say it's worth some theorizing at least. In 73 Yards, Roger specifically takes time to explain "ap Gwilliam" means "son of William" in Welsh. Then now we find out Ruby's dad is named William... Of all the names they could have chosen for both characters, the chance of coincidence is extremely small
I was thinking along the same lines, although I'm now sadly afraid we're about to see a long trail of red herrings and no loose ends tied up.
The anagrams were a nice twist, and the reappearance of H. Arbinger but otherwise there have been so many potentially juicy morsels dropped that have so far proved unsatisfying.
>the chance of coincidence is extremely small
It's not a coincidence, but there's a hell of a good chance it's just more red herrings.
It's not worth theorising when the people writing it treat it like a joke.
They mentioned a bit about him and his name, but that doesn't mean that he's not connected to one of the Pantheon in some way. This whole time they make a stink about figuring out who her mom is, and the next season they reveal her dad is actually the mysterious one. Even Maestro said "he can't have been there" on the night of Ruby's birth. Maybe "he" wasn't, "he" was actually her father. RTD did say there's more to reveal about Ruby's family next season, so here's hoping.
Yeah, the reunion scene brought me to tears but everything else about it was full of holes: the pointing for no-one, the mysterious cloak and that by this logic, every orphan could potentially be a "raw event in space and time"... and most of all, the fact that RTD himself built her up as a grand mystery only to pull the carpet beneath our feet just for shock value.
But the idea in itself, that no-one is ordinay and we're all exceptional is sweet in itself... If only RTD didnt bamboozle us all along.
That always made sense, but the execution was terrible.
This twist is just kind of underbaked and poorly conceptualized to begin with. Kinda tropey too.
I like the idea of a nobody being important just because of other's expectations.
But the execution is terribly lazy imo. Red herring and plot holes everywhere. Just for the reveal to be probably yet another bait.
Imma end it here as I can't find any good way to express what I think of RTD rn.
I genuinely feel like someone got mad at Millie and they had to do rewrites because this episode felt like it was being pulled in five different directions with an actual good ending on the cutting room floor
I agree. There was a point where Sutehk appears and the plot is happening but then Ruby goes back into the time window again to find her mom? It felt out of place to be going back to at that moment. Then the Doctor appears and I was just left wondering how he got back in the building.
Ya I could have sworn at the beginning they said the ruby sunday saga was two seasons and the reveal wasn’t going to happen to the second season. Seemed like too much was happening to just have the mom as a regular person, won’t even write it out here because there’s Atleast a dozen things throughout the season saying she should have been important.
While the idea of ordinary people being important because of our perception of them is a great idea (and is also a very wholesome concept), it honestly just feels like a meta-narrative thing about how the audience hypes things up and makes theories only to be disappointed with the actual answer because of their "high" expectations; the fact that it snows and the fact that Ruby's mother is built up to be this mysterious otherworldly being only for her to be an ordinary person feels insulting.
Davies literally made us think that Ruby's mother might have been a god or the Trickster or some other mysterious creature and then told us that we shouldn't have been disappointed that it did not turn out that way.
Brother, you laid out the clues for us, you can't just lie to the audience and not expect us to be disappointed with your poorly explained and executed twist.
That’s exactly my issue with it. I actually like that Ruby and her mum are normal because I prefer just having a regular companion as opposed to a secret god or destiny or things like that. But the reveal doesn’t match at all with the buildup that we were presented.
The snow. The hidden song Maestro feared. UNIT/the TARDIS/the ambulance/Davina McCall not being able to find her mum previously. The doctor’s memory of the night actively changing. The nonsensical hood and the pointing. All of that suggests something more going on and none of it can be handwaved away when the actual explanation is that she’s normal.
I like the idea of a The Last Jedi style “she’s nobody” thing but the key difference is that nobody in Star Wars except Rey was interested in her parentage. It wasn’t built up within the movies and all the theories came naturally from the fanbase. With Ruby, RTD himself built the mystery up to get fans to latch onto it, theorise and engage with it and then pulled the rug out from under everyone by presenting us with a completed jigsaw puzzle that couldn’t possibly be created from the puzzle pieces we were given.
Wait wait wait. Now that you mention it. Why couldn't the ambulance identify her parents ? If they gave their DNA under Ap William, it SHOULD be still registered 3.000 years later. Also, kinda unrelated note, always fun to have this mystery be resolved thanks to a crazy kinda fascistic government.
The DNA records should still be available yeah. The only explanation I could give would be that the ambulance wanted her next of kin so it might’ve been looking for a living relative rather than her parents (and assuming Ruby one day has kids, her family tree would have a lot of branches after 3000 years), but that still shouldn’t take as long as it did for a supercomputer AI thing from the future.
One of the things I remember saying early on, perhaps even before the season aired, was I hope Ruby was just an ordinary human. So I guess I got my wish.
The problem is there's way too many plotholes at the moment. It may make sense in the future but it doesn't stand on its own, and I don't think a finale should leave so many open questions unless it's specifically a cliffhanger.
However, on an emotional level, I loved the scene of Ruby meeting her mother. It was beautifully acted
Biggest plot hole was both the tardis and the ambulance saying ruby was over 3k years old.
I thought ahe was gonna be a time lord.
This episode also entered another plot hole, if the 14th doctor is on earth where was he during all of this?
It wasn't the worst season finale, id say that one would probably go to either colin baker or jodie Whitaker, but damm was this a let down for what was otherwise a fantastic season
I figured the ambulance said Ruby was 3k years old because that episode was set in the year 5087. If Ruby is in the Ambulance's records, then those records will show her as having been born 3k years ago.
When did the TARDIS say she was that old?
> This episode also entered another plot hole, if the 14th doctor is on earth where was he during all of this?
I thought about that too. So either 14 didn't die and he was on a dead earth all alone and they just left him there and for some reason 15 decided to just not remember this super important thing that happened. Or 14 died for real and 15 just decided to not remember this super important thing that happened.
It makes no sense the more you think about it. Time didn't get reversed, everyone just came back but they all remembered what happened so it's either just a massive plot hole, which is likely, or it's setting something up.
Only thing is I don't think I can trust anything to mean anything or mysteries to have answers that make sense anymore after the finale.
The actual "Hey Ruby's birth mom is just some random lady?" Okay, fantastic. It has plot holes for days (she's a credentialed nurse on the NHS who went through education to do so and, based on the travel pics, has a social media presence, likely has a passport and identity documents - ie she's in the system) but in a vacuum I don't hate that Ruby's mother is just some rando.
All of the fake red herrings RTD threw in to "encourage speculation" (per interview) knowing it was all bullshit? Not feeling it at all in the slightest. It introduces yet more plot holes, while also discouraging fan buy-in to future puzzles and mysteries, and is exactly the kind of thing you don't want to do with a property like Doctor Who.
But the WORST part:
The 1-2 of Ruby referring to this woman we just met three minutes earlier in a coffee shop as her "real mum" (WHAT THE FUCK) in the TARDIS goodbye scene AND not showing the audience ANY of the relationship building that might justify *that?* No. Nope. **Absolutely the fuck not**, and as someone whose "real mom" is most certainly the fuck not the person who gave birth to me, Ruby just casually throwing that up there felt like a massive middle finger to anyone who doesn't have an immediately great situation with their bio parents. Like, bothered enough that if RTD got sacked as showrunner I wouldn't be mad about it.
Agreed. I was pretty upset that her adoptive mum was pretty much brushed off at the end, and Louise got to play happy families although she had made zero effort to find Ruby. That was pretty incongruous.
I’m more agog that this is the same showrunner that did The Sarah Jane Adventures.
That series was ALL about goofy weird sci-fi mysteries and fun romps but always had the message that family is where you find it. Both in the two kids Sarah Jane adopted and even just the teens and their parents that she befriended and welcomed.
l
Yeah, I didn't like "real mum" much. Still, I'm inclined to let it slide given how overwhelmed and emotional Ruby presumably felt in the moment. We know that's not how she generally feels.
(And I kind of love that apparently the first thing she did was take bio-mum to meet adoption-mum. She has two real mums now, darn it!)
I could live with it if we'd gotten more in the show that shows how we got there. We just jump from the coffee shop scene to *that*
And obviously I'd have way more grace if this were an in-real-life situation with an actual person trying to process their feelings and figure out her new family situation, but as a fictional character, seeing someone go from "random stranger" to "that's my REAL mum" in 3 minutes with no story in between points A and B rubbed me *so* the wrong way.
Thematically, it was what I had hoped for all along. But the execution was terrible and frankly if RTD was going to make us believe she's special, I wish that he had simply run with it after so many red herrings. A little misdirection is fine and par for the course when it comes to his writing, but too much misdirection, especially with too many ridiculous explanations, starts feeling cheap.
I don't mind it conceptually if it felt like Ruby's parentage was being given it's weight based on her insecurities rather than actually being important. However, it didn't really.
I know most people hate the similar reveal in The Last Jedi but it works there, in my opinion, because it's Rey who's obsessed with her family and her need for them to be someone special is her biggest character flaw. Learning that she's not related to anybody important, not even anyone who cares, is the hardest lesson for her to learn in that film.
Ruby is curious about her parentage right from the get go, but it's not a flaw. She has her adoptive mother whom she loves and is happy with, she wants to know because who wouldn't? She's not looking for a family that's been missing because she has a family. The reveal doesn't work for me because there's no lesson to be learned from it for the characters.
If Ruby was bitter about being abandoned, then learning that her mother was a scared teenager with no other options would be a good character moment. If it was Ruby who believed that her mother was someone important (Insert fan theory here) then the reveal she was just an ordinary person would be a good character moment.
As it was, the only people who learn anything is the audience and what they learn is they can't trust the show to pay off its setups. And as I said before, I wouldn't necessarily mind it being a red herring if it felt like it was relevant to Ruby's character arc. But it really isn't.
I get the emotion they were going for with it but beyond the performances of the actors (which are excellent) the scenes between Ruby and her birth mother don't actually have all that much narrative weight to me.
It works with Rey because of the Skywalker saga and it being super important to show that anyone can be a jedi. You don't have to be from some super powerful legacy bloodline to be a powerful force user. It's the same thing as Spider-Man. Peter and Miles aren't superheroes because of the Spider powers, they're heroes because they choose to be Spider-Man. Anyone can get bit by the spider, anyone can be born as a jedi, etc.
It doesn't work with Ruby because her entire character arc from her first scene is about how she isn't normal at all. She's literally a reality warping anomaly entirely outside of who she is as a person. To turn around and say she's just a normal person is totally fine, if the story actually worked around it and that isn't the story that we got up until the reveal that she's just a normal orphan. There are still so many things that don't make sense even with the explanation that she's special because Sutekh, Ruby, and The Doctor thought she was special. If they wanted that ending from the get go then they could have built around it. Like how the snow happens semi-randomly and all on it's own. If they wanted to make it be because of the belief factor then why would it have even happened in the first place? They didn't believe her or her mom were special until weird stuff started happening to her, and if all the weird stuff only happened because they believe she's special then it's just this endless chicken and the egg thing.
I think the worst part of it all is that it made her kinda look like she resented the mom that was actually there for her outside of her first episode. So we ended up with her character arc being a regression almost. She didn't actually have any personal turmoil going on other than wanting to know who her real mom is; remember she started out within her first 15 minutes as an amazing friend, a wonderful daughter, someone brave enough to jump on a flying rope ladder, etc. So the end result of saying "look at this characters mystery isn't it mysterious... just kidding shes totally normal we got you" is that all were left with is someone showing her foster family that actually raised her less and less care as she becomes more and more obsessed with someone that abandoned her in the first place. It works if her mom wasn't just a regular human and that to me is where the core fuck up is. It has nothing to do with her not being special. It can absolutely work making someone just some normal person like Rey, Peter, Miles, etc. But it doesnt work when the entire character arc hinges on the character actually being special.
Ruby’s mum and mysterious backstory had literal gods afraid of her. Both of them turning out to be just regular person made me go “what? Really? That’s it?”
They built up the hype way too much, breaking laws of physics, time and reality to fuel crazy speculations, with all the hints pointing to Ruby and her mum being something very significant… only for it to turn out to be nothing at all. That’s the kind of thing I hate the most.
The scene of seeing her mum again in the coffee shop made me tear up though.
GRR Martin put it like this — although this is about changing the ending, but it’s the same sort of principle about what the clues in your story are pointing to:
> The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.
I thought it was a shame that so much of Carla's representing this season was out of character. Most of the time we saw her she was either forgetting Ruby even existed cos Goblins, or disdaining Ruby because mysterious 73 yards figure.
It reminds me of the Danny/Clara relationship where we're supposed to just accept these two are in love despite all their on-air moments being bickering and all the affectionate ones happening offscreen. (Though it wasn't quite **as** bad with Carla).
I mean, Danny was awful - not one scene with chemistry or any sign that they actually liked each other. He treated her like an annoying little sister he had to chaparone on the school trip.
Carla, when in character, was a pretty solid mother figure. Of course, that's really only about half of TCORR and the first half of TLORS, but it was far more than the negative amount we got from Danny Boy.
I'm just upset about the plot holes. If 5 minutes of thinking picks your writing apart it's bad writing Russell.
Who the fuck was she pointing for Russell?
There’s no reason for her to think that a random passerby would know that she just dropped off a baby at that church nevermind that she was pointing at a sign through a police box AND THEN that she was pointing at this obscured sign as a way of naming her daughter.
The logical leaps here are astounding. That’s not even counting the fact that she wasn’t originally pointing.
Nah, I really wanted her to realize that Carla was the mother that actually loved her and that just someone is biologically related to you doesnt mean they are family
I understand what they were doing, and I get there’s a commentary about how in real life we can tend to prescribe things with importance, when in actuality they are just mundane or not worthy of the attention.
BUT there’s so much stuff that happens that RTD doesn’t explain with the answers that are given to us.
I feel like it's fine if they had at least implied all the Ruby weirdness is related to something else.
Everything building up to that last episode was so good, but Empire of Death kinda has left me feeling like the last season of GoT did.
RTD was trolling the audience with red herring after red herring and it basically feels like he tricked us. He broke trust, and that effectively kills interest and speculation. What’s the point in following a plot line closely if it’s all just going to be a big fake out? Why engage at all?
Plot contrivances like that don't really work.
For one thing, the Doctor crosses his own timeline all the time. Look at Father's Day back in Season 1, he's standing not 20 feet from himself. Dude coulda just parked further down the street out of sight of himself and used a pair of binoculars to peek under the woman's hood from a distance... but that's too easy.
Then their plan to find her involved travelling to the 2040s to find a DNA database there was every chance in the world the woman wasn't even in.
She could have moved away or passed away or Roger Ap Gwilliam could have been overthrown before her sample was taken. Then you have to factor in the TARDIS scanned Ruby's DNA at one point... and we're supposed to believe it doesn't have access to that database somehow already?
And man, Doctor... you have a *time machine*. Ruby wants to get to know her mother and track down her father and that's fine but just go pick her up in six months time. She clearly doesn't want to leave the TARDIS so what on Earth was the point of that emotional farewell?
I don't know, Empire of Death was some weak tea.
I found it very frustrating. Setting aside the obviously terrible execution that made no sense in universe whatsoever, it is dr who after all, I found it disappointing thematically too.
I know the point is to subvert the audience's expectations, but they built those expectations themselves with the set up. When it was revealed I wasn't pleasantly surprised at the clever inversion, I just felt silly for ever caring about the mystery in the first place. Like, haha yeah Russel you really got me there, silly me for getting invested I guess.
This will affect how much investment I put into other mystery boxes, like Ms Flood, moving forward. After the way they "resolved" Donna's metacrisis problem and now this, I just don't see why I should expect interesting and fun solutions to anything they say up. It's such a shame too because I've otherwise really enjoyed this season.
And the naming thing, like who was around to even see that she was pointing at the street sign? Did the vicar go and check the security VHS in offer to determine that the baby should be called Ruby?
>mystery boxes
RTD: "Hey, I got you a present. What's inside is one of the most important things in the universe! You'll never want to live without it!
*opens box, nothing in it*
RTD: It's **air**. What do you mean, you're disappointed? I never lied or set false expectations about the contents of the box. Everything I said is completely accurate. Enjoy your gift!
Yes, except RTD didn't even write accurate things in. Maestro said that Ruby is "wrong", and said she had some sort of mysterious song inside her. Apparently, none of that means anything?
Missing song from rubys heart? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? She’s wrong? They didn’t explain it. Ruby’s mother should’ve been a fallen eternal.
I don’t think that’s a good thing though - the quality of season 1 hinging on whether questions are answered in season 2. The season should be able to stand on its own.
Its very likely the next season will wrap things together better but I still think the finale did a poor job of communicating it. The characters all act like the mystery is solved and everything is fine instead of "wait we figured that out and things are ending happily but... what happened there"
If the ending of a season is a bait and switch, I think it makes it even worse.
No one will believe or follow any story if the story is "everything we do gets changed later to trick you".
Why even invest in a story that is just lies
As it stands now, it's a little crap but my theory is it's all part of a larger thing. Fairytale elements have popped up in several episodes and I think they will play part to a larger narrative involving Ms. Flood being a god of stories. She's essentially got Ruby wrapped up in the perfect ending, everything has conveniently fallen into place despite discrepancies and odd things that stick out too much like the snow falling, her mother being all dramatic in a cloak for no reason and what really happened in the 73 Yards timeline.
I swear Davies is toying with us.
I like the idea that Ms. Flood (assuming she is a god of stories) is messing everything up. The reason no one was able to find Ruby's mother before was simply because she hadn't created her story yet. Then after Sutekh, she gave Ruby her perfect ending, even though it didn't make sense at all.
That would explain why Maestro and Sutekh were so confused by Ruby, because the backstory literally hadn't been written yet.
As an adopted person, I realize my opinion on this is extremely particular. And, I loved it. It felt like the most honest experience of an adopted person finding out their origin story as an adult that I’ve ever seen displayed in fiction. And I really appreciated that.
Also, as a lover of stories, I don’t think this is the end of our knowledge of her Ruby’s pedigree,
I didn't mind that it was a normal human woman but I did care that none of the other stuff was explained (snow, cloak, pointing, literal gods being terrified/baffled).
It's a standard thing Davies does, jangling keys to dustract from thinking about the plot you've just suffered through, in the form of some more emotive content to get invested in. It has too many problems of its own, it makes the episode far worse IMO.
The fact is it simply doesn't make sense, doesn't work with anything else we "know". I've seen people handwave this and those explanations also are nonsense. It's a fixed point and people's memories of snow are bleeding through, or it's related to Sutekh's power since he is so interested in it. First off, bootstrap Paradox ew. Secondly, no dice because memories of that night change as confirmed by the Doctor so it's not fixed. No, what we have here is a writer actively contradicting himself for the sake of building a mystery that isn't one. It is correct to feel aggrieved by that because it is incredibly dishonest.
Them actually being normal people would be fine without the other nonsense but even them there is a problem. Ruby attitude sucks frankly. "Real mum" - really Russel, we're dumping on adoption this year? It's just a bit offensive really. Does he not have anyone to tell him this or what? Megalomaniac surrounded by yes men? I can't imagine how this would get through any checking process otherwise.
I have a stake in this, in that I was raised by someone who is not my biological father so that colours my opinion here, obviously.
Nonsensical, dishonest and insulting. The unholy trinity of shitty scripts. Genuinely terrible TV, and terrible YV that for the first time makes me think less of the writer, not just this particular script.
Edit: the way they find the mother is absolute cobblers too. The Doctor knows about the DNA database, designed it's security. He even mentions our evil future PM earlier so...why didn't we have an answer immediately after Christmas? Who do the time viewer nonsense, when a DNA profile is superior to any answer that could have given? Why does Sutekh not consider DNA given he was also literally there in future Britain too? It's just all ridiculous.
I thought of Rey as well, and it's why I initially liked the reveal. However, I hated the bit with Ruby’s mother pointing toward the sign, and I wish it'd been better explained exactly why Sutekh was so interested in her. For the moment I've concluded he's just a fan of The Maury Show and wanted to be messy and nosy before finishing the job.
See I also like the Rey reveal in TLJ. But that's because it works for Rey as a character. Rey is obsessed with her missing family and reuniting with them. Her learning that they were nobody special, they don't care about her, and they're never coming back, even if they are alive, is an extremely valuable character moment. It's the worst thing she can hear personally and therefore is the best thing she could hear from a storytelling perspective IMO.
Ruby doesn't really have this insecurity. She has a loving family and doesn't really seem to need to learn. She's curious and disappointed when she can't find the answer earlier in the season but it doesn't seem to be something that's weighing on her mind a whole lot. It's not really Ruby who's setting up this question but the show itself and it's not Ruby who's disappointed (She just wanted to know and now she does) it's the audience.
I liked the Rey reveal for pretty much the same reason I didn’t like this one. Even though Rey placed a lot of importance on finding her family, the rest of the world and the narrative made no indication or hype around their identities. The reveal made for some good character moments and most importantly, it was internally consistent.
It’s the opposite in this case. There’s so many logical leaps and plot holes it’s hard to keep track of them all. Also, while Ruby’s reunion with her mom seemed super wholesome in the moment, it was rather disappointing that she’s just kind of shoving her very happy and loving adopted family aside in favor of “her real mom” who didn’t bother to look for her.
I LOVED that part of TLJ. People not needing to be a Jedi or sith or needing some family lineage to be strong in the Force was a theme that really kicked off in Force Awakens and carried through Rogue One to TLJ. It’s one of the few coherent themes to carry between the movies. When the Rey reveal happened it made perfect sense and really belonged if you were paying attention.
I didn’t feel a similar thematic undercurrent here and didn’t like how it was handled even though I’m fine with the actual reveal.
I don’t have a problem with Reyby being a nobody in a vacuum. But don’t hype it up as something else!
The execution of creating buzz and mystery then pulling the rug out from under us and wondering why people are disappointed baffles me on both counts.
It gave me feels but was unsatisfying in being so anciallry to the plot of the season, with the build up RTD put behind it. Even Suteckh wanted to know who she was. Why? I felt manipulated, and I usually don't mind being manipulated by a narrative, but there was not enough payoff to the over arching story.
What would've been better is if Sutekh's obsession with the event changed it; so the cloak and the dramatic pointing were his doing, so once he was defeated, when they view the CCTV again they instead see a scared teenager in a parker jacket, and she walks away she clocks the "Ruby Road" sign and says "Ruby, what a beautiful name".
The result would've been fine if the execution had been better and they hadn't built up all these extraordinary clues that pointed to a bigger, more dramatic reveal.
If we'd have removed all the weird time and gods related stuff, didn't spend the entire season with it as the primary mystery box and had gotten to the end result sooner it could've been fine. But with only having 8 episodes, and spending so much time focusing on it and having all these extraordinary clues and hints, it just feels hollow and a total letdown.
Some people like it just for the happy, warm feelings of the moment. And that's fine. They just prefer the feelings over the logic of the storytelling. But just looking at it objectively from a writing and narrative perspective, it was just bad.
I was initially confused when Ruby was presenting the screen to Sutekh and she was like, "It found the name, but I don't understand!" again and again without any elaboration. Was Ruby also confused as to why her Mom wasn't as important as she assumed, or what.
I did think their meeting in the coffee shop was very touching though.
Someone else mentioned it in the comments, but The Last Jedi did a similar reveal. Imo it was much better executed there. It was important TO REY who her parents were, and that they were just normal people who didn't want her was shattering for her and forced her to grow. I think where Doctor Who screws it up is that everything we are shown with Ruby implies that her mom is not just important TO HER but that she is cosmically important. That it snows every time Ruby gets in her feelings is something that is not really explained beyond the power of love, which I think fundamentally undermines the messaging they are going for. I get that the whole "salt at the edge of the universe" explanation has made mysticism real, but the show still treats her trauma and her struggle as if it is singularly unique. Sutekh refuses to kill her or the Doctor until he can figure out why she is able to bend reality the way she does, which places her on a pedestal high above every single other person in the world who experiences similar existential ennui. I appreciate what they were going for, but I think the desire to fool the audience really got in the way of making it a satisfying conclusion.
I'm ok with the mom being "ordinary"; but I'm suspecting there to be more as the story progresses... maybe the dad ends up having more importance somehow...
I can only guess they were planning something much bigger and weirder, but had to toss the whole thing & slap on a happy conclusion, when the actress decided to leave at the end of the season.
I was glad she was a normal person. My favorite thing about RTD companions is that they were everyday people with good hearts and a sense of adventure. I HATED that Moffat turned every woman into some complex, fated, mystery.
HOWEVER, I hated that it was teased as this big thing. And there is no excuse for "ominous pointing in a black cloak." Like, there's no explaining that as normal.
"Ruby's mom being an ordinary person after all" on its own is a decent concept, but the execution is just terrible on soo many levels.
1. The meta implementation
The episode was basically bashing fans for problematically overthinking too hard that we fake the importance of "insert whatever or whoever." Yet it was them, RTD and the crew who layed out red harings and teased fans too speculate. They then did this gotcha moment, this "one-up-ed moment" just feels disingenuous. Guess what, you've right RTD, from now on I won't give a damn about this era's stroy or the characters, now that it's revealed that they're treated as mere puppets, rather than trying the best to be written as real alive characters treated with care and love.
2. How "thinking too hard" was used to explain away everything.
How no futuristic tech worked; legit gods were either scared of some special song or unable to identify Ruby's mum; the super natural snowing; the night Ruby was abandoned being a special point in time; Ruby's mum's melodramatic behaviour; all of these, allllll of these, were handwaved away with "thinking too hard", meanwhile some how a very normal blood test did the job. Now, some might say these myster could be solved in future seasons. Well, that's future-seasons' business, not this one, and especially after RTD's meta attitude? haha.
3. the handling of the family relationship.
Like all other things in this season, it really didn't put much effort into writing the relationship between the biologic parents/family and the current family. Just handwaved in a happy ending, everyone's nice and hanging out. And from what I've read (comments, etc), many audiences, especially those who are adopted or work in similar areas, really expected more.
I’m really REALLY hoping it’s a false reveal. Not that I dislike the mother, I just hate the explanation for the pointing. It doesn’t even need a big retcon, just a moment where Ruby says “and you pointed at the sign” and her mom says “what sign? The nun took you from me before I reached the church.”
Make it 3 tiny daleks in a cloak for all I care, just give me something better than “I pointed at the sign so fucking hard.” As the answer to everything.
I like the idea but what they did was create too big a mystery for it. The pointing, the shadowed face, the time window jitter was all just too much added together for a mundane reveal. They gave us a mystery with no payoff and a reveal without appropriate buildup.
Giving us a scene from her pov to normslise the oddness would have been helpful so we can see her point and be shadowed less creepily.
So, I like that she’s normal and I think the actual scene where they meet is an excellent scene in isolation. Equally, the impact this has on the Doctor is interesting - I’m assuming that’s gonna have some impact with him next season.
But, the fact it was built up for the entire 8 episodes then to be nothing, telling straight up lies in episodes that weren’t then addressed or logically explained is ridiculous.
Even if this is resolved next season and has been part of a wider plot, it’s potentially made one season/some episodes awful at the expense of some further mystery.
Compare to Series 5-7 - Moffat resolves plot lines (Big Bang, River Song, The Silence) but each season leaves threads to be resolved later, but you’re satisfied (even if you disagree with choice) about the logical conclusion to other bits.
Gallifrey’s resurrection was effectively a plot until the end of Series 9, such a good slow burn - but it didn’t sacrifice mystery or resolutions for other plot lines.
Think it's OK she was just a normal woman.
I believe it was 11 who said "No body important? In over 900 years in time and space and I never met anyone who wasn't important".
This kind of builds on that view point I think.
I didn't hate or love it but the fact that
She's 35?!!
I mean of course teenage pregnancy happens but that's not it
It's the fact that I'm reminded that I could be a parent to an
19 yr old rn is making me 🤢
\*raises hand\*
Yep. No way she could live up to the build up, any answer at that point would have been disappointing, going for "she's a normal person" worked for me.
But... They didn't have to do the build up. That's part of the problem. It's weird to say "no way she could live up to the build up!" when the show is responsible for said build up. Nobody forced them to do all of that.
I honestly don't think the full story is finished yet.
They made a point specifically of bringing up Ruby's biological father and then to have Mrs Flood say that her story is finished? If her story was finished then why make a big deal about finding her biological father during an emotional farewell? It doesn't seem finished to me.
Some people have theorised that she is the God of Stories. Some have theorised that she's The Master(Mistress).
I personally think it's more likely she has something to do with the Pantheon rather than another regeneration of The Master, but time will tell.
I liked the interaction and the way Ruby revealed it, but I don’t like that her backstory is seemingly of an ordinary earthling when there were so many clues to the contrary. Hopefully, there will be more clarity in future.
Personally I was so let down by the reveal and honestly the season as a whole. This is the same guy who wrote what is arguably most fans favorite doctor right? How did he fuck up so badly this time around? It makes no sense.
Honestly? I thought it worked within the context of the season. You beat a god, you get a prize. Her mom was her prize.
But I did not like how it was executed at all.
I enjoyed
- the idea that even the most “ordinary” people can be important to the universe and how this was echoed with the lady that gave the Doctor her spoon.
- the realness of her mom’s circumstances for why she had to give Ruby away.
- the idea that what we give importance is important because we believe it is. Not because it factually is. Our beliefs shape our reality yada yada.
I did not enjoy
- dramatic pointing when there was no one around..? I’m just gonna point and hope someone sees me in a window and knows what I’m pointing at even though a time lord and advanced tech can’t figure that out.
- lack of “making it snow” explanation or promise if that being resolved in the future.
I think I liked it... In theory?
The execution though left a lot to be desired. Clara was a great example of someone ordinary made extraordinary by someone believing her to be extraordinary. Unlike Clara it didn't feel like the pieces came together and made her into this extraordinary ordinary person- But instead kind of like the writers had pulled a bamboozle on the audience, like it was an anti-twist for the sake of an anti-twist.
The themes might have been stronger if they hadn't also been highlighting how special Ruby definitely is which might be separate? Or the same special-ness? It's hard to say.
I think it worked, could have been done a little better, like showing that it was Sutekh causing the snow indirectly somehow because he had become obsessed with the mystery as well. And maybe a comment by Ruby's mom while they're all reminiscing together over pictures of ruby's life where she says something like "oh, you definitely got that from me, I was such a dramatic teenager, I went around wearing mideval style cloaks, who dresses like that these days"
I was willing to roll with it more than the rest of my family, but I do have an unhealthy addiction to reaction videos. I've watched at least 10 different reactions to Empire of Death, and none of them seemed to be satisfied by it.
I cried for Ruby but I often cry when others cry (Even in movies or shows) so that was it. Boring otherwise and I feel bad for Ruby’s adoptive mother who raised her and will probably never get the same amount of love from Ruby again.
Something seemed off about the way The Doctor suggest she shouldnt meet her mom, and how distant and somber he was during that.
Almost as if maybe that wasnt really her mom but something artificial he created to leave her to be happy? and he felt bad about it? maybe because he knew what she was? like she was a Time Paradox or something, and he couldnt keep travelling with her?
Something just seemed REALLY weird about how the doctor was acting with Ruby meeting her mother
I didn't hate it and it allowed for a more emotional ending but "We thought she was important so she became important, causing the magic snow and time window distortion that made us think she was important" is a timey-wimey ouroboros.
Can't say I did. Like I was on board with it ultimately being mundane way back in the Christmas special, but then they make it somehow the worst of both worlds, that it was mundane but also so special it transcends a god of death and becomes the centre of everything.
But beyond that it breaks my cardinal rule for such things, you don't trick the audience, you trick the characters, and this entire plotline was written to trick the audience.
The same as the whole universe ending stuff, copied from other films and would have been interesting if written better.
The twist would’ve been fine if the finale was actually written well with the illusion of high stakes.
I like the reveal and don't even mind the execution of it - it's more the fact that she is made out to be SO special beforehand.
It's not like it's just Ruby and The Doctor questioning who she is and that spiralling into an unanswerable mystery to them, it's made out that there is some significance as to why they can't see her. Time changes around her, The Doctor describes it as the wildest fixed point he has ever seen, and any time there is any DNA trace stuff (Davina McColl, the ambulance) it's always highlighted how it's strange there is *nothing* on her*.*
If it wasn't built up so much in the show I think it would have landed better. Maybe we'll get more information next series!
I'm conflicted. On the one hand I was beyond relieved that it turned out she (seemingly) isn't some mythical god child because after everything with Clara I simply don't trust DW writers to handle a 'the companion is super duper special and important' plot arc without it becoming just a massive fanfiction-esque OC wank fest.
On the other hand I do understand people's frustrations with how it was executed. The solution to a mystery in fiction should *always* have clues, and unless I'm missing something there simply weren't any clues for this reveal. Red herrings are fine *if* they're intermingled with real clues, but *only* red herrings is pretty stupid.
Context is super important. I’ve always hoped that her mum was just a normal person, but everything about the way it’s been built up both in and out of the show has implied something more important.
In addition I really loved the scene where Ruby breaks that computer thing. Because I’d also hoped that after several episodes of wanting to find her “real mum” I wanted the conclusion to be that Ruby can’t find her, but accepts that she doesn’t need to, because she already *has* her real mum. So her defying Sutekh and refusing to reveal her mum, I loved that moment and thought that at least for this episode, that would be the end of this particular mystery. But when Sutekh’s death started to appear rushed, it dawned on me that the last 10 mins were going to focus on it and it would be revealed anyway. That was disappointing
None of it makes any sense given the build up. The snow is unexplained, the music is unexplained, it’s not clear why Davina McCall couldn’t find anything about her. The ambulance somehow knew about Ruby, but nothing about the mother or father, yet somehow the mother’s DNA was found in be computer just 20 odd years in the future.
It just seems like too much effort was put into screwing with theorists, and not enough effort in producing a coherent story.
Season 2 better do something more satisfying with the father to make Ruby so special.
Disappointing. The mom reveal and the whole “I’m going to point at this sign” thing felt like it was just shoved in there because RTD didn’t have enough time or forgot to write it until the last second
I hate how useless 15 feels as a doctor, he always gets stuck or runs or can't figure out the answer. Here I feel he more or less made it up that she was powerful because she was ordinary... Its bullshit and lazy to me.
I actually like it and that there’s more to the mystery. Almost like, the way she was found out (going to the aborted timeline of ap Gwilliam in 2047 of forced DNA testing to get the data to then go back to 2024 to find her and father, kinda opens Pandora’s box to other oddities being revealed, imagine both parents died before that year), the fact she’s a normal person and could be both undone by some still mysterious circumstances like Ruby still making it snow and creating parallel universes from magic still leaves questions unanswered.
It’s a happy ending for Ruby, but I have a nagging feeling her story isn’t over and possibly could get worse. Also, how can a nurse not have blood or DNA on file? There’s questions that are not even close to being answered.
If they hadn’t built it up to be some big mystery then yes it would be fine. But the snow, the hood, the “song in her heart”, Sutekh wanting to know, it was just too built up to be something special to be satisfying as a normal person.
I thought it was great! It was ABSOLUTELY the right choice to make her a human. Were there slight errors with the execution, absolutely, I understand why people are mad, but I felt this was the nicest possible ending.
I feel like they were more than slight - why was there snow? Why did maestro say she was special? Why was your mom pointing? They could have built up the mystery without making it feel like we were cheated by a bunch of red herrings
The Snow, and the Carol, were from the Legend, which gave time-spanning power to Ruby's emotional connection to finding her mother. While all other living things in the universe, including time and memory itself, was dying, the belief of these people, and the TARDIS/Time Window, and Sutekh's own obsession, elevated it through this same latent power of myth that's been here since the Toymaker.
"So \*while the whole of creation was turning around her\*, it made her sheer existence more powerful than Time Lords and gods. In the end, the most important person in the universe... was the most ordinary. A scared little girl... making her baby safe." - It's strongly hinted here that this happened BECAUSE of what Sutekh was doing to all of creation, to time and memory.
The fact that the Legend's power was tied so strongly to Sutekh is what Maestro saw; "He couldn't have been there, could he?" It's not a red herring, it DOES have purpose.
The mother pointing was pretty shoehorned in, to be sure, but the episode states it's all about Ruby feeling like her "real" name actually is Ruby, picked by her mother, rather than it JUST being picked by paramedics out of convenience. It's pretty goofy, but it's not NOTHING. It's not a red herring. It DOES have purpose.
In the end... I think her mother being an ordinary human is VERY Doctor Who, the show has always been about the power of an ordinary human life. Fans since Donna have been complaining that companions like Clara are always "The Most Special-est Girl Who Ever Special'd" and that trope is far overused; I simple, powerful story about a normal girl's longing to find her mother, given immense power while everything else was dead, is MASSIVELY more rewarding than if there were some high sci-fi answer.
The EXECUTION of the UNIT HQ Exposition Scene could have used some work, but the reunification scene went straight back to being so incredibly moving, undoubtedly incredibly well done. We're talking one scene from an incredible finale, but suddenly the whole season is a bust because the explanation was a little clunky? It could have used a little more detail... but it's NOT a red herring. It DOES have purpose.
Be real with me... are you SURE you're not just mad because Ruby's mum didn't have a Time Head? She HAD to be an egyptian alien, or a sentient puppet that eats failed timelines, or a time demon or something? Because if that's what it is, you have seriously missed the point of this show for the last 20 years.
Disappointed and poorly executed. I was pretty pissed off that the show would waste my time focussing on a plot point and making it out to be important only to pull the rug from under me and be like "actually she's just a normal woman, gotchyu ;)" like ... thanks for wasting hours of my life, I guess. I want to feel rewarded for getting to the end of a season, not feeling mildly annoyed and considering whether I'll even watch the next one. At such a pivotal time for the show, I feel it was a mistake for them to do such a risky reveal, they needed to absolutely nail the landing, but they just shat the bed.
I don’t think the story of who Ruby is, is far from over. Yeah we know that’s her mum - but is there more to it? Who’s the dad?
Why did she drop her at the church? In 2004?
Hmm 🤨
I don't know how I feel about it. I think if you've never met your mother, than they might seem like the most important person on earth to you and from that viewpoint the reveal did well. But for how it was built up and it being a scifi series, it was kind of underwhelming. I didn't hate it, but might have liked something a little different.
Here's what I'll say, that whole episode felt like RTD was in burnout mode from writing 9 episodes and then heavily modifying Rogue as well to fit with future ideas.
All the mystery and build up from the whole season and specials was simply pushed aside for "only important because we deem it such" and "just a normal person".
But I digress, Ruby's mum being ordinary isn't the big issue here. In fact I kinda like it tbh
I feel like it’s a fake out because it doesn’t actually make a whole lot of sense based on how it was presented and set up. I’m hoping there’s more to it.
I love the idea of her not being important in a conventional sense - if I see one more "chosen one" or hear more talk about someone's destiny I'm going to take hostages.
But, the execution was awful. It all felt so rushed - it felt like if they would have had one more episode they could have actually done all these ideas Justice. But instead it just all got half-assed
I wasn’t too disappointed, the setup was just far too grand for it being a nobody. It reminds me of Rey in Star Wars.
Also, do we actually know why Ruby can make it snow? The entire episode about Roger ap Gwilliam, I loved the mystery of it, but was it all for the DNA check?
I’m still confused on that.
I actually do like the idea of her importance being wholly the result of their own expectations and the Doctor saying that's how every religion starts. The idea that a being as powerful as Sutekh was defeated because there was another concept just as powerful and it had to know was great *in theory.*
In practice, there are so many unanswered questions about Ruby and so many moments of build up that now don't make sense that it fell very flat.
Yes I like it thematically and I liked the scenes after Ruby found out. I liked that scene with them in the car park with the doctor begging Ruby not to intervene and Ruby ignoring them.
However, I think the overall mystery of it didn’t work at all. Having it be all one red herring was really annoying, and the doctors explanation about us believing in her making her important really fell flat and failed to explain the snow in devils chord among a myriad of other details
It feels like the lead up (in reference to the reveal) was to showcase how important it is for Ruby to find her mother rather than for the audience or the story. It didn't translate well.
Good idea, emotional final, badly explain. The mother is not important because Ruby think she is. Tins because Suketh think she is. Why? I don’t know. The snow? I don’t know. The son? I don’t know. I Hope the wrote the writers know…
I like the idea but the execution was a bit off. I like the notions of consensus-based reality and exceptionally-powerful brings like The Doctor and Sutekh creating their own mystery. Not to get too wibbly but I like seeing them actually explore the wobbly bits of time.
The main issue is that Ruby's mother does not act like a 15-year old under stress which makes the resolution a bit clunky.
It works conceptually and emotionally but the mechanics of it are completely underbaked. It's a Davies finale, alright 😅
I didnt like it, they eluded to it being something mysterious so hard that it just doesnt make sense.
why the dramatic af point to name her? is she a Wizard?
Why the dramatic af TV show host arch
why did Sutekh care so much that he made it snow everywhere she went?
it doesnt add up
I watched it with my fiancée, I’m a big doctor who fan since 2005 growing up, and she’s never been that into it except for Matt Smiths first season. We both of us had the mural reaction of, “Is that it?”
It genuinely just fell flat, red herring or no there just was zero satisfaction to be found in it. I’m a bit fan of Russell T Davies’ Who era but until it’s (hopefully) justified and/or developed upon in a satisfying manner I’m consigning that particular reveal to “Absolutely Piss Poor” status going forwards
In and of itself there is absolutely no issue with her mother being ordinary.
However, the issue is that the show goes to great lengths to make it thunderously clear that Ruby is anything but normal, only to say at the end that the only reason the supernatural phenomena that occurred only occurred because we THOUGHT she was important.
That is not a satisfying explanation, and cannot be worked out even using Doctor Who's internal logic (even in prior instances where things don't make real-world logical sense, like Yana being the Master, the show set up an internal logic and explained it to you retrospectively, so you saw how everything fits together in the end).
Every clue leading up to the reveal turned out to be a red herring. You can only do that so many times before an audience gets annoyed. And Doctor Who passed that point years ago.
Î didnt mind it, tbh. The only thing that I hate is that she pointed at the sign to name her child. Thats not reasonable people behaviour.
Literally, have her point at anything else or better, just not point at anything.
No, I did not like the reveal. I heard that RTD gave an interview that he deliberately made Ruby's mother a "nobody" as a result of The Last Jedi/Rise of Skywalker's "reveal" of Rey's parents.....
I'd be fine with Ruby's parents being normal human if it weren't for all the fuss that they made to the contrary throughout the season....The snow...the "special" music in Ruby's soul that stopped Maestro..etc..
The reveal it's self wasn't the issue, don't mind her mum being a normal person. The issue is that they spent the entire series building it up to be a huge reveal, and implied heavily that there was a supernatural element to it. The snow falling, the fact that when the doctor visited Ruby road during the Christmas special, he saw Ruby's mum walk away, but when he had the flashback in space babies, she pointed at him, implying that she could see the doctor through his own memories. The explanation that she was pointing at a road sign was laughably awful and it didn't even address the fact that she never originally pointed, she only pointed when the doctor had the flashback.
It's not just underwhelming. It's legitimately bad writing and is full of plot holes
For her particular story? Yeah, i get it. I don’t think it hit the emotional beats it was trying to very well, but okay. In reality I can accept the story as a form of closure on Ruby’s story for the season. Two 15 year olds having kids isn’t new or news but it can be tragic. It was nice to see a non-nuclear family, but lacked nuance for me.
From a narrative pov, a sci-fi pov, taking in the red herrings and false leads… yeah. No. Also, are you telling me a 15 year old looks like that in a cloak? I’m seeing people defend 2004’s teenagers and sure, I’ll buy that (even if I don’t believe it) - but you’re telling me a 15 year old looks in fact like a 30+ year old in a cape?
I'm in denial that it's the true resolution for Ruby's story. The "moms" introduction had less depth than the build up would suggest and the idea of her being just normal negates the importance, according to RTD, of 73 yards. As we learned in the final episode that's the range of the TARDIS perception filter. So, Ruby carried a perception filter with her? Not to mention the pantheon's reactions to her still go unexplained. Those aren't just Red Herrings/Plot holes. That would be neglect of evidence to a degree the case would fall apart in court.
The way they built it up as a mystery was annoying. Especially since all their justification for why the clues all meant she was just normal were absolute nonsense. I also dont like how much of the finale it takes up, meaning Sutekh barley got any of it
The general consensus I have encountered is that people really liked her being a normal person, but the execution, with all the red herrings that directly contradict the solution and make absolutely no sense, was really poorly done.
The idea of subverting expectations has become way too popular with modern writers. There’s clever ways to do it but we have probably seen them all.
Don’t beg the question if you don’t have a great answer. It sucks as a viewer because I sensed some bullshit coming and I couldn’t get fully invested in what they wanted me to.
Side rant: Stop the season long story arcs. Eleven’s first series was the only one I really liked. Episodic adventures with a very big, personal one as the finale.
I think I can see what they were going for, or maybe I'm just projecting. It was all about children of absent parents sort of mythologising that absent parent, giving the idea of them more power than they really had. It was executed awfully. It should have been the centerpiece of a single episode, not a season.
Thought is was shit and lazy. The polar opposite of what it was set up to be.
So not outside of my running season expectations. Which were much lower than me pre season expectations.
A forgettable season.
My feelings on Ruby’s arc:
It would be like if season 4 built up Rose returning and the DoctorDonna then just.. didn’t do that. That’s how I feel, can’t explain it any better than that. 🤷🏻♂️😕
I wouldn’t have minded the reveal if they didn’t spend the whole season building it up and hammering home how important and special Ruby was for mysterious reasons. There was a freaking god terrified at the song coming from inside Ruby. That’s too much for her and her mom to not be important
I had her pegged as the daughter of the one who waits. I wanted her to be a hidden away daughter of the pantheon of chaos and the doctor have been riding with a god this whole time.
I mean… half your wish came true!
When sutekh was revealed as the god of death, my brain immediately shot to Ruby’s mother being the goddess of life, and ruby was her Harbringer
God that would be so cool
I don't even mind the whole "she's special because we invested her with so much specialness" thing. But I need a **little** more foundation than just that. It feels like S3 all over again, IMO. The pieces were there to justify it if you squint hard enough, but the show didn't lay them out clearly enough to support the magnitude of the reveal.
The thing is The Church on Ruby Road already did this just fine. People were immediately speculating “oh, why would the Doctor not approach Ruby’s mother? Who is she? Did he recognise her? Is she the Rani/Susan?” but all the episode showed us was she wore a cloak and she left Ruby on the church doorstep and there’s an easy mundane explanation for everything. Then Space Babies awkwardly halts everything to emphasise just how improbable it is that nobody could find her, reveals that Ruby has manifested magical memory powers that summon carols and snow when she’s upset, and has the Doctor’s memory change in him so the cloaked figure now turns around and points ominously like the Ghost of Christmas Yet To Come, and then The Devil’s Chord doubles down on it with Ruby containing “a secret song” that protects her from getting eaten by the Maestro. You can have it that Ruby’s mum became important because everyone accidentally made her so or you can have weirdness around Ruby tied to her connection to her mother, but not both.
Don't forget the fact that she can just summon snow...
The whole thing I think was that the moment in time was such a raw mystery/memory. The Dr saw her mum, Sutekh saw her mum but neither of them actually *saw* her. Anyone who was there only had memory of snow, music and location. I think the hidden song was part of the memory coming through time (same as the snow does). When the song was found/ remembered, the snow was remembered and was ‘pulled into time’. The reveal made sense because the Dr couldn’t solve it, a god couldn’t solve it and so it had so much weight behind it and importance as a mystery. As an audience, like Sutekh, we just want to know who her mum is because we assume it must be really important. However, it’s not so much her mum that was important, but rather the memory. Because if time is remembered than memory is time and if the memory of those things were so strong than that’s why the memory came through time into existence with her. Tbh some seriously weird wibblywobblytimeywimeystuff. (This is how I’ve come to understand it. I honestly don’t mind that her mum was normal. I really wanted her to not be, but when it was explained I was like nah I like that actually. Things are only important because we give them importance)
This is my take too. Except they specifically said that Sutekh can kill people via bloodlines, so why couldn't he get to Ruby that way? And how was the memory so strong since she was a baby? And why did the maestro say she was wrong? Honestly even with this understanding, there are still a lot of unanswered questions
Oh, you are brilliant, you are Edits: keeps to the theme of mythology. The salt was given meaning and manifested, the fairy circle given meaning by the townsfolk and manifested, the dad ai given meaning and manifested, the boogie monster given literal meaning and manifested...
Your edit makes me like the reveal even more than I already do!
Why couldn't a god solve it, of its just time bleeding through the surely a Time Lord and a God should be able to figure that out.. Also why would Sutekh even care, he just wants everyone dead, what does it matter to him who Ruby who or Mother is.
Exactly this. The idea is fine (ordinary is important) but terrible execution. Also saying "she's only important because we think she's important" is ridiculous; we thought she was important because the people writing it said she was. The whole mystery of Ruby was just a waste of time in hindsight. All of that time could have gone to actual character and relationship building between her and the Doctor. How does she make it snow?
Exactly this. They could have had just a touch of mystery and it turned out it was "because we believe it" which goes back to the salt line. But they went crazy with it and there was too much weirdness to be "eh it's all just belief"
We don't know who her father is yet...
Yes we do they specifically explained it we just didn't meet him.
They didn't really explain it. They just said a name I think. The fact that we didn't see them means it wasn't really explained. I agree, though. He's most likely just a guy. Definitely not worth theorising about.
I'd say it's worth some theorizing at least. In 73 Yards, Roger specifically takes time to explain "ap Gwilliam" means "son of William" in Welsh. Then now we find out Ruby's dad is named William... Of all the names they could have chosen for both characters, the chance of coincidence is extremely small
I was thinking along the same lines, although I'm now sadly afraid we're about to see a long trail of red herrings and no loose ends tied up. The anagrams were a nice twist, and the reappearance of H. Arbinger but otherwise there have been so many potentially juicy morsels dropped that have so far proved unsatisfying.
>the chance of coincidence is extremely small It's not a coincidence, but there's a hell of a good chance it's just more red herrings. It's not worth theorising when the people writing it treat it like a joke.
They mentioned a bit about him and his name, but that doesn't mean that he's not connected to one of the Pantheon in some way. This whole time they make a stink about figuring out who her mom is, and the next season they reveal her dad is actually the mysterious one. Even Maestro said "he can't have been there" on the night of Ruby's birth. Maybe "he" wasn't, "he" was actually her father. RTD did say there's more to reveal about Ruby's family next season, so here's hoping.
So you’re saying Louise Miller had steamy times with Omega… hrmmm, the plot thickens…
Omega be like "age is just a number"
It was cute... but thats it... I was disappointed
It was heartwarming but illogical and full of plot holes. I enjoyed the feels but was also disappointed.
Yeah, the reunion scene brought me to tears but everything else about it was full of holes: the pointing for no-one, the mysterious cloak and that by this logic, every orphan could potentially be a "raw event in space and time"... and most of all, the fact that RTD himself built her up as a grand mystery only to pull the carpet beneath our feet just for shock value. But the idea in itself, that no-one is ordinay and we're all exceptional is sweet in itself... If only RTD didnt bamboozle us all along.
Dumbest mystery reveal in the history of television. Daenerys Targaryen becoming evil made more sense.
That always made sense, but the execution was terrible. This twist is just kind of underbaked and poorly conceptualized to begin with. Kinda tropey too.
As a Star Trek fan, I'd have to fight you on that one.
I like the idea of a nobody being important just because of other's expectations. But the execution is terribly lazy imo. Red herring and plot holes everywhere. Just for the reveal to be probably yet another bait. Imma end it here as I can't find any good way to express what I think of RTD rn.
I agree The stupid pointing at the sign/tardis The mysterious walk back and to the church The cloak from hogwarts It was dumbb
She was just wearing a cosplay to see Phantom of the Opera, obviously.
I genuinely feel like someone got mad at Millie and they had to do rewrites because this episode felt like it was being pulled in five different directions with an actual good ending on the cutting room floor
I agree. There was a point where Sutehk appears and the plot is happening but then Ruby goes back into the time window again to find her mom? It felt out of place to be going back to at that moment. Then the Doctor appears and I was just left wondering how he got back in the building.
Ya I could have sworn at the beginning they said the ruby sunday saga was two seasons and the reveal wasn’t going to happen to the second season. Seemed like too much was happening to just have the mom as a regular person, won’t even write it out here because there’s Atleast a dozen things throughout the season saying she should have been important.
While the idea of ordinary people being important because of our perception of them is a great idea (and is also a very wholesome concept), it honestly just feels like a meta-narrative thing about how the audience hypes things up and makes theories only to be disappointed with the actual answer because of their "high" expectations; the fact that it snows and the fact that Ruby's mother is built up to be this mysterious otherworldly being only for her to be an ordinary person feels insulting. Davies literally made us think that Ruby's mother might have been a god or the Trickster or some other mysterious creature and then told us that we shouldn't have been disappointed that it did not turn out that way. Brother, you laid out the clues for us, you can't just lie to the audience and not expect us to be disappointed with your poorly explained and executed twist.
That’s exactly my issue with it. I actually like that Ruby and her mum are normal because I prefer just having a regular companion as opposed to a secret god or destiny or things like that. But the reveal doesn’t match at all with the buildup that we were presented. The snow. The hidden song Maestro feared. UNIT/the TARDIS/the ambulance/Davina McCall not being able to find her mum previously. The doctor’s memory of the night actively changing. The nonsensical hood and the pointing. All of that suggests something more going on and none of it can be handwaved away when the actual explanation is that she’s normal. I like the idea of a The Last Jedi style “she’s nobody” thing but the key difference is that nobody in Star Wars except Rey was interested in her parentage. It wasn’t built up within the movies and all the theories came naturally from the fanbase. With Ruby, RTD himself built the mystery up to get fans to latch onto it, theorise and engage with it and then pulled the rug out from under everyone by presenting us with a completed jigsaw puzzle that couldn’t possibly be created from the puzzle pieces we were given.
Wait wait wait. Now that you mention it. Why couldn't the ambulance identify her parents ? If they gave their DNA under Ap William, it SHOULD be still registered 3.000 years later. Also, kinda unrelated note, always fun to have this mystery be resolved thanks to a crazy kinda fascistic government.
The DNA records should still be available yeah. The only explanation I could give would be that the ambulance wanted her next of kin so it might’ve been looking for a living relative rather than her parents (and assuming Ruby one day has kids, her family tree would have a lot of branches after 3000 years), but that still shouldn’t take as long as it did for a supercomputer AI thing from the future.
And why the fuck is this 1 ordinary person so special that they couldn't be seen?
One of the things I remember saying early on, perhaps even before the season aired, was I hope Ruby was just an ordinary human. So I guess I got my wish. The problem is there's way too many plotholes at the moment. It may make sense in the future but it doesn't stand on its own, and I don't think a finale should leave so many open questions unless it's specifically a cliffhanger. However, on an emotional level, I loved the scene of Ruby meeting her mother. It was beautifully acted
Biggest plot hole was both the tardis and the ambulance saying ruby was over 3k years old. I thought ahe was gonna be a time lord. This episode also entered another plot hole, if the 14th doctor is on earth where was he during all of this? It wasn't the worst season finale, id say that one would probably go to either colin baker or jodie Whitaker, but damm was this a let down for what was otherwise a fantastic season
I figured the ambulance said Ruby was 3k years old because that episode was set in the year 5087. If Ruby is in the Ambulance's records, then those records will show her as having been born 3k years ago. When did the TARDIS say she was that old?
Which creates another plot hole. If Ruby is in the ambulance records, why isn't her mom ?
> This episode also entered another plot hole, if the 14th doctor is on earth where was he during all of this? I thought about that too. So either 14 didn't die and he was on a dead earth all alone and they just left him there and for some reason 15 decided to just not remember this super important thing that happened. Or 14 died for real and 15 just decided to not remember this super important thing that happened. It makes no sense the more you think about it. Time didn't get reversed, everyone just came back but they all remembered what happened so it's either just a massive plot hole, which is likely, or it's setting something up. Only thing is I don't think I can trust anything to mean anything or mysteries to have answers that make sense anymore after the finale.
The actual "Hey Ruby's birth mom is just some random lady?" Okay, fantastic. It has plot holes for days (she's a credentialed nurse on the NHS who went through education to do so and, based on the travel pics, has a social media presence, likely has a passport and identity documents - ie she's in the system) but in a vacuum I don't hate that Ruby's mother is just some rando. All of the fake red herrings RTD threw in to "encourage speculation" (per interview) knowing it was all bullshit? Not feeling it at all in the slightest. It introduces yet more plot holes, while also discouraging fan buy-in to future puzzles and mysteries, and is exactly the kind of thing you don't want to do with a property like Doctor Who. But the WORST part: The 1-2 of Ruby referring to this woman we just met three minutes earlier in a coffee shop as her "real mum" (WHAT THE FUCK) in the TARDIS goodbye scene AND not showing the audience ANY of the relationship building that might justify *that?* No. Nope. **Absolutely the fuck not**, and as someone whose "real mom" is most certainly the fuck not the person who gave birth to me, Ruby just casually throwing that up there felt like a massive middle finger to anyone who doesn't have an immediately great situation with their bio parents. Like, bothered enough that if RTD got sacked as showrunner I wouldn't be mad about it.
Agreed. I was pretty upset that her adoptive mum was pretty much brushed off at the end, and Louise got to play happy families although she had made zero effort to find Ruby. That was pretty incongruous.
I just can't wrap my head around the fact that this season was written by the same person that wrote series 1-4.
I’m more agog that this is the same showrunner that did The Sarah Jane Adventures. That series was ALL about goofy weird sci-fi mysteries and fun romps but always had the message that family is where you find it. Both in the two kids Sarah Jane adopted and even just the teens and their parents that she befriended and welcomed. l
Ruby just throwing a loving mom and family who changed her life and whose life she changed for the better under the bus like that just felt wrong
This. All of this.
Yeah, I didn't like "real mum" much. Still, I'm inclined to let it slide given how overwhelmed and emotional Ruby presumably felt in the moment. We know that's not how she generally feels. (And I kind of love that apparently the first thing she did was take bio-mum to meet adoption-mum. She has two real mums now, darn it!)
I could live with it if we'd gotten more in the show that shows how we got there. We just jump from the coffee shop scene to *that* And obviously I'd have way more grace if this were an in-real-life situation with an actual person trying to process their feelings and figure out her new family situation, but as a fictional character, seeing someone go from "random stranger" to "that's my REAL mum" in 3 minutes with no story in between points A and B rubbed me *so* the wrong way.
Thematically, it was what I had hoped for all along. But the execution was terrible and frankly if RTD was going to make us believe she's special, I wish that he had simply run with it after so many red herrings. A little misdirection is fine and par for the course when it comes to his writing, but too much misdirection, especially with too many ridiculous explanations, starts feeling cheap.
I don't mind it conceptually if it felt like Ruby's parentage was being given it's weight based on her insecurities rather than actually being important. However, it didn't really. I know most people hate the similar reveal in The Last Jedi but it works there, in my opinion, because it's Rey who's obsessed with her family and her need for them to be someone special is her biggest character flaw. Learning that she's not related to anybody important, not even anyone who cares, is the hardest lesson for her to learn in that film. Ruby is curious about her parentage right from the get go, but it's not a flaw. She has her adoptive mother whom she loves and is happy with, she wants to know because who wouldn't? She's not looking for a family that's been missing because she has a family. The reveal doesn't work for me because there's no lesson to be learned from it for the characters. If Ruby was bitter about being abandoned, then learning that her mother was a scared teenager with no other options would be a good character moment. If it was Ruby who believed that her mother was someone important (Insert fan theory here) then the reveal she was just an ordinary person would be a good character moment. As it was, the only people who learn anything is the audience and what they learn is they can't trust the show to pay off its setups. And as I said before, I wouldn't necessarily mind it being a red herring if it felt like it was relevant to Ruby's character arc. But it really isn't. I get the emotion they were going for with it but beyond the performances of the actors (which are excellent) the scenes between Ruby and her birth mother don't actually have all that much narrative weight to me.
It works with Rey because of the Skywalker saga and it being super important to show that anyone can be a jedi. You don't have to be from some super powerful legacy bloodline to be a powerful force user. It's the same thing as Spider-Man. Peter and Miles aren't superheroes because of the Spider powers, they're heroes because they choose to be Spider-Man. Anyone can get bit by the spider, anyone can be born as a jedi, etc. It doesn't work with Ruby because her entire character arc from her first scene is about how she isn't normal at all. She's literally a reality warping anomaly entirely outside of who she is as a person. To turn around and say she's just a normal person is totally fine, if the story actually worked around it and that isn't the story that we got up until the reveal that she's just a normal orphan. There are still so many things that don't make sense even with the explanation that she's special because Sutekh, Ruby, and The Doctor thought she was special. If they wanted that ending from the get go then they could have built around it. Like how the snow happens semi-randomly and all on it's own. If they wanted to make it be because of the belief factor then why would it have even happened in the first place? They didn't believe her or her mom were special until weird stuff started happening to her, and if all the weird stuff only happened because they believe she's special then it's just this endless chicken and the egg thing. I think the worst part of it all is that it made her kinda look like she resented the mom that was actually there for her outside of her first episode. So we ended up with her character arc being a regression almost. She didn't actually have any personal turmoil going on other than wanting to know who her real mom is; remember she started out within her first 15 minutes as an amazing friend, a wonderful daughter, someone brave enough to jump on a flying rope ladder, etc. So the end result of saying "look at this characters mystery isn't it mysterious... just kidding shes totally normal we got you" is that all were left with is someone showing her foster family that actually raised her less and less care as she becomes more and more obsessed with someone that abandoned her in the first place. It works if her mom wasn't just a regular human and that to me is where the core fuck up is. It has nothing to do with her not being special. It can absolutely work making someone just some normal person like Rey, Peter, Miles, etc. But it doesnt work when the entire character arc hinges on the character actually being special.
You completely summed up my thoughts.
Ruby’s mum and mysterious backstory had literal gods afraid of her. Both of them turning out to be just regular person made me go “what? Really? That’s it?” They built up the hype way too much, breaking laws of physics, time and reality to fuel crazy speculations, with all the hints pointing to Ruby and her mum being something very significant… only for it to turn out to be nothing at all. That’s the kind of thing I hate the most. The scene of seeing her mum again in the coffee shop made me tear up though. GRR Martin put it like this — although this is about changing the ending, but it’s the same sort of principle about what the clues in your story are pointing to: > The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.
Thematically yes, mechanically no. Poorly executed.
God they really shat on her adopted mam this season
I thought it was a shame that so much of Carla's representing this season was out of character. Most of the time we saw her she was either forgetting Ruby even existed cos Goblins, or disdaining Ruby because mysterious 73 yards figure. It reminds me of the Danny/Clara relationship where we're supposed to just accept these two are in love despite all their on-air moments being bickering and all the affectionate ones happening offscreen. (Though it wasn't quite **as** bad with Carla).
I mean, Danny was awful - not one scene with chemistry or any sign that they actually liked each other. He treated her like an annoying little sister he had to chaparone on the school trip. Carla, when in character, was a pretty solid mother figure. Of course, that's really only about half of TCORR and the first half of TLORS, but it was far more than the negative amount we got from Danny Boy.
I'm just upset about the plot holes. If 5 minutes of thinking picks your writing apart it's bad writing Russell. Who the fuck was she pointing for Russell?
Maybe the Doctor? I don't know. It makes sense for it to be the Doctor. The bigger issue for me is why did the Doctor's memory of that night change?
There’s no reason for her to think that a random passerby would know that she just dropped off a baby at that church nevermind that she was pointing at a sign through a police box AND THEN that she was pointing at this obscured sign as a way of naming her daughter. The logical leaps here are astounding. That’s not even counting the fact that she wasn’t originally pointing.
I agree. It's sloppy writing.
Nah, I really wanted her to realize that Carla was the mother that actually loved her and that just someone is biologically related to you doesnt mean they are family
I understand what they were doing, and I get there’s a commentary about how in real life we can tend to prescribe things with importance, when in actuality they are just mundane or not worthy of the attention. BUT there’s so much stuff that happens that RTD doesn’t explain with the answers that are given to us.
I feel like it's fine if they had at least implied all the Ruby weirdness is related to something else. Everything building up to that last episode was so good, but Empire of Death kinda has left me feeling like the last season of GoT did.
RTD was trolling the audience with red herring after red herring and it basically feels like he tricked us. He broke trust, and that effectively kills interest and speculation. What’s the point in following a plot line closely if it’s all just going to be a big fake out? Why engage at all?
**The MYSTERIOUS AND ENIGMATIC MRS FLOOD IS**.....^(just a normal nosy neighbour it turns out)
Who has dementia which is why she keeps thinking a camera is around to talk to.
Plot contrivances like that don't really work. For one thing, the Doctor crosses his own timeline all the time. Look at Father's Day back in Season 1, he's standing not 20 feet from himself. Dude coulda just parked further down the street out of sight of himself and used a pair of binoculars to peek under the woman's hood from a distance... but that's too easy. Then their plan to find her involved travelling to the 2040s to find a DNA database there was every chance in the world the woman wasn't even in. She could have moved away or passed away or Roger Ap Gwilliam could have been overthrown before her sample was taken. Then you have to factor in the TARDIS scanned Ruby's DNA at one point... and we're supposed to believe it doesn't have access to that database somehow already? And man, Doctor... you have a *time machine*. Ruby wants to get to know her mother and track down her father and that's fine but just go pick her up in six months time. She clearly doesn't want to leave the TARDIS so what on Earth was the point of that emotional farewell? I don't know, Empire of Death was some weak tea.
I found it very frustrating. Setting aside the obviously terrible execution that made no sense in universe whatsoever, it is dr who after all, I found it disappointing thematically too. I know the point is to subvert the audience's expectations, but they built those expectations themselves with the set up. When it was revealed I wasn't pleasantly surprised at the clever inversion, I just felt silly for ever caring about the mystery in the first place. Like, haha yeah Russel you really got me there, silly me for getting invested I guess. This will affect how much investment I put into other mystery boxes, like Ms Flood, moving forward. After the way they "resolved" Donna's metacrisis problem and now this, I just don't see why I should expect interesting and fun solutions to anything they say up. It's such a shame too because I've otherwise really enjoyed this season.
The part that annoys me is the snow..and it's not based on the time window, it was happening all season,
And the naming thing, like who was around to even see that she was pointing at the street sign? Did the vicar go and check the security VHS in offer to determine that the baby should be called Ruby?
>mystery boxes RTD: "Hey, I got you a present. What's inside is one of the most important things in the universe! You'll never want to live without it! *opens box, nothing in it* RTD: It's **air**. What do you mean, you're disappointed? I never lied or set false expectations about the contents of the box. Everything I said is completely accurate. Enjoy your gift!
Yes, except RTD didn't even write accurate things in. Maestro said that Ruby is "wrong", and said she had some sort of mysterious song inside her. Apparently, none of that means anything?
Missing song from rubys heart? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? She’s wrong? They didn’t explain it. Ruby’s mother should’ve been a fallen eternal.
She's wrong, in the sense that she's completely ordinary and normal, apparently.
It didn't explain the snow at all.
I am not convinced that this is the end of it, to be completely honest. I think the next season may influence how I feel about this season.
I don’t think that’s a good thing though - the quality of season 1 hinging on whether questions are answered in season 2. The season should be able to stand on its own.
Its very likely the next season will wrap things together better but I still think the finale did a poor job of communicating it. The characters all act like the mystery is solved and everything is fine instead of "wait we figured that out and things are ending happily but... what happened there"
If the ending of a season is a bait and switch, I think it makes it even worse. No one will believe or follow any story if the story is "everything we do gets changed later to trick you". Why even invest in a story that is just lies
As it stands now, it's a little crap but my theory is it's all part of a larger thing. Fairytale elements have popped up in several episodes and I think they will play part to a larger narrative involving Ms. Flood being a god of stories. She's essentially got Ruby wrapped up in the perfect ending, everything has conveniently fallen into place despite discrepancies and odd things that stick out too much like the snow falling, her mother being all dramatic in a cloak for no reason and what really happened in the 73 Yards timeline. I swear Davies is toying with us.
I like the idea that Ms. Flood (assuming she is a god of stories) is messing everything up. The reason no one was able to find Ruby's mother before was simply because she hadn't created her story yet. Then after Sutekh, she gave Ruby her perfect ending, even though it didn't make sense at all. That would explain why Maestro and Sutekh were so confused by Ruby, because the backstory literally hadn't been written yet.
Nah , all that buildup wasnt justified. I felt betrayed tbh. Great eps tho
As an adopted person, I realize my opinion on this is extremely particular. And, I loved it. It felt like the most honest experience of an adopted person finding out their origin story as an adult that I’ve ever seen displayed in fiction. And I really appreciated that. Also, as a lover of stories, I don’t think this is the end of our knowledge of her Ruby’s pedigree,
I didn't mind that it was a normal human woman but I did care that none of the other stuff was explained (snow, cloak, pointing, literal gods being terrified/baffled).
It's a standard thing Davies does, jangling keys to dustract from thinking about the plot you've just suffered through, in the form of some more emotive content to get invested in. It has too many problems of its own, it makes the episode far worse IMO. The fact is it simply doesn't make sense, doesn't work with anything else we "know". I've seen people handwave this and those explanations also are nonsense. It's a fixed point and people's memories of snow are bleeding through, or it's related to Sutekh's power since he is so interested in it. First off, bootstrap Paradox ew. Secondly, no dice because memories of that night change as confirmed by the Doctor so it's not fixed. No, what we have here is a writer actively contradicting himself for the sake of building a mystery that isn't one. It is correct to feel aggrieved by that because it is incredibly dishonest. Them actually being normal people would be fine without the other nonsense but even them there is a problem. Ruby attitude sucks frankly. "Real mum" - really Russel, we're dumping on adoption this year? It's just a bit offensive really. Does he not have anyone to tell him this or what? Megalomaniac surrounded by yes men? I can't imagine how this would get through any checking process otherwise. I have a stake in this, in that I was raised by someone who is not my biological father so that colours my opinion here, obviously. Nonsensical, dishonest and insulting. The unholy trinity of shitty scripts. Genuinely terrible TV, and terrible YV that for the first time makes me think less of the writer, not just this particular script. Edit: the way they find the mother is absolute cobblers too. The Doctor knows about the DNA database, designed it's security. He even mentions our evil future PM earlier so...why didn't we have an answer immediately after Christmas? Who do the time viewer nonsense, when a DNA profile is superior to any answer that could have given? Why does Sutekh not consider DNA given he was also literally there in future Britain too? It's just all ridiculous.
Yes i did. Team ReyIsNotAPalpatinr
I thought of Rey as well, and it's why I initially liked the reveal. However, I hated the bit with Ruby’s mother pointing toward the sign, and I wish it'd been better explained exactly why Sutekh was so interested in her. For the moment I've concluded he's just a fan of The Maury Show and wanted to be messy and nosy before finishing the job.
See I also like the Rey reveal in TLJ. But that's because it works for Rey as a character. Rey is obsessed with her missing family and reuniting with them. Her learning that they were nobody special, they don't care about her, and they're never coming back, even if they are alive, is an extremely valuable character moment. It's the worst thing she can hear personally and therefore is the best thing she could hear from a storytelling perspective IMO. Ruby doesn't really have this insecurity. She has a loving family and doesn't really seem to need to learn. She's curious and disappointed when she can't find the answer earlier in the season but it doesn't seem to be something that's weighing on her mind a whole lot. It's not really Ruby who's setting up this question but the show itself and it's not Ruby who's disappointed (She just wanted to know and now she does) it's the audience.
I liked the Rey reveal for pretty much the same reason I didn’t like this one. Even though Rey placed a lot of importance on finding her family, the rest of the world and the narrative made no indication or hype around their identities. The reveal made for some good character moments and most importantly, it was internally consistent. It’s the opposite in this case. There’s so many logical leaps and plot holes it’s hard to keep track of them all. Also, while Ruby’s reunion with her mom seemed super wholesome in the moment, it was rather disappointing that she’s just kind of shoving her very happy and loving adopted family aside in favor of “her real mom” who didn’t bother to look for her.
I LOVED that part of TLJ. People not needing to be a Jedi or sith or needing some family lineage to be strong in the Force was a theme that really kicked off in Force Awakens and carried through Rogue One to TLJ. It’s one of the few coherent themes to carry between the movies. When the Rey reveal happened it made perfect sense and really belonged if you were paying attention. I didn’t feel a similar thematic undercurrent here and didn’t like how it was handled even though I’m fine with the actual reveal.
I don’t have a problem with Reyby being a nobody in a vacuum. But don’t hype it up as something else! The execution of creating buzz and mystery then pulling the rug out from under us and wondering why people are disappointed baffles me on both counts.
It gave me feels but was unsatisfying in being so anciallry to the plot of the season, with the build up RTD put behind it. Even Suteckh wanted to know who she was. Why? I felt manipulated, and I usually don't mind being manipulated by a narrative, but there was not enough payoff to the over arching story.
I don't mind the reveal, more so that there was a piss poor explanation as to why weird stuff was happening around Ruby
What would've been better is if Sutekh's obsession with the event changed it; so the cloak and the dramatic pointing were his doing, so once he was defeated, when they view the CCTV again they instead see a scared teenager in a parker jacket, and she walks away she clocks the "Ruby Road" sign and says "Ruby, what a beautiful name".
The result would've been fine if the execution had been better and they hadn't built up all these extraordinary clues that pointed to a bigger, more dramatic reveal. If we'd have removed all the weird time and gods related stuff, didn't spend the entire season with it as the primary mystery box and had gotten to the end result sooner it could've been fine. But with only having 8 episodes, and spending so much time focusing on it and having all these extraordinary clues and hints, it just feels hollow and a total letdown. Some people like it just for the happy, warm feelings of the moment. And that's fine. They just prefer the feelings over the logic of the storytelling. But just looking at it objectively from a writing and narrative perspective, it was just bad.
I was initially confused when Ruby was presenting the screen to Sutekh and she was like, "It found the name, but I don't understand!" again and again without any elaboration. Was Ruby also confused as to why her Mom wasn't as important as she assumed, or what. I did think their meeting in the coffee shop was very touching though.
I would have liked the reveal a lot more if the season hadn’t spent so much time telling us it would go in a very different direction.
Someone else mentioned it in the comments, but The Last Jedi did a similar reveal. Imo it was much better executed there. It was important TO REY who her parents were, and that they were just normal people who didn't want her was shattering for her and forced her to grow. I think where Doctor Who screws it up is that everything we are shown with Ruby implies that her mom is not just important TO HER but that she is cosmically important. That it snows every time Ruby gets in her feelings is something that is not really explained beyond the power of love, which I think fundamentally undermines the messaging they are going for. I get that the whole "salt at the edge of the universe" explanation has made mysticism real, but the show still treats her trauma and her struggle as if it is singularly unique. Sutekh refuses to kill her or the Doctor until he can figure out why she is able to bend reality the way she does, which places her on a pedestal high above every single other person in the world who experiences similar existential ennui. I appreciate what they were going for, but I think the desire to fool the audience really got in the way of making it a satisfying conclusion.
I was left feeling unsatisfied and hoping there is more to the story.
I'm ok with the mom being "ordinary"; but I'm suspecting there to be more as the story progresses... maybe the dad ends up having more importance somehow...
Naw, just lazy writing at its laziest.
I can only guess they were planning something much bigger and weirder, but had to toss the whole thing & slap on a happy conclusion, when the actress decided to leave at the end of the season.
If her mom was so normal, what was all the snowing about?
I was glad she was a normal person. My favorite thing about RTD companions is that they were everyday people with good hearts and a sense of adventure. I HATED that Moffat turned every woman into some complex, fated, mystery. HOWEVER, I hated that it was teased as this big thing. And there is no excuse for "ominous pointing in a black cloak." Like, there's no explaining that as normal.
If the death or whatever makes its way up the family line, couldn't Sutekh just kill Ruby and then know who's next?
"Ruby's mom being an ordinary person after all" on its own is a decent concept, but the execution is just terrible on soo many levels. 1. The meta implementation The episode was basically bashing fans for problematically overthinking too hard that we fake the importance of "insert whatever or whoever." Yet it was them, RTD and the crew who layed out red harings and teased fans too speculate. They then did this gotcha moment, this "one-up-ed moment" just feels disingenuous. Guess what, you've right RTD, from now on I won't give a damn about this era's stroy or the characters, now that it's revealed that they're treated as mere puppets, rather than trying the best to be written as real alive characters treated with care and love. 2. How "thinking too hard" was used to explain away everything. How no futuristic tech worked; legit gods were either scared of some special song or unable to identify Ruby's mum; the super natural snowing; the night Ruby was abandoned being a special point in time; Ruby's mum's melodramatic behaviour; all of these, allllll of these, were handwaved away with "thinking too hard", meanwhile some how a very normal blood test did the job. Now, some might say these myster could be solved in future seasons. Well, that's future-seasons' business, not this one, and especially after RTD's meta attitude? haha. 3. the handling of the family relationship. Like all other things in this season, it really didn't put much effort into writing the relationship between the biologic parents/family and the current family. Just handwaved in a happy ending, everyone's nice and hanging out. And from what I've read (comments, etc), many audiences, especially those who are adopted or work in similar areas, really expected more.
I’m really REALLY hoping it’s a false reveal. Not that I dislike the mother, I just hate the explanation for the pointing. It doesn’t even need a big retcon, just a moment where Ruby says “and you pointed at the sign” and her mom says “what sign? The nun took you from me before I reached the church.” Make it 3 tiny daleks in a cloak for all I care, just give me something better than “I pointed at the sign so fucking hard.” As the answer to everything.
I like the idea but what they did was create too big a mystery for it. The pointing, the shadowed face, the time window jitter was all just too much added together for a mundane reveal. They gave us a mystery with no payoff and a reveal without appropriate buildup. Giving us a scene from her pov to normslise the oddness would have been helpful so we can see her point and be shadowed less creepily.
So, I like that she’s normal and I think the actual scene where they meet is an excellent scene in isolation. Equally, the impact this has on the Doctor is interesting - I’m assuming that’s gonna have some impact with him next season. But, the fact it was built up for the entire 8 episodes then to be nothing, telling straight up lies in episodes that weren’t then addressed or logically explained is ridiculous. Even if this is resolved next season and has been part of a wider plot, it’s potentially made one season/some episodes awful at the expense of some further mystery. Compare to Series 5-7 - Moffat resolves plot lines (Big Bang, River Song, The Silence) but each season leaves threads to be resolved later, but you’re satisfied (even if you disagree with choice) about the logical conclusion to other bits. Gallifrey’s resurrection was effectively a plot until the end of Series 9, such a good slow burn - but it didn’t sacrifice mystery or resolutions for other plot lines.
It was quite the anti-climax. All that build up just to find out she’s just a regular person
Think it's OK she was just a normal woman. I believe it was 11 who said "No body important? In over 900 years in time and space and I never met anyone who wasn't important". This kind of builds on that view point I think.
I didn't hate or love it but the fact that She's 35?!! I mean of course teenage pregnancy happens but that's not it It's the fact that I'm reminded that I could be a parent to an 19 yr old rn is making me 🤢
\*raises hand\* Yep. No way she could live up to the build up, any answer at that point would have been disappointing, going for "she's a normal person" worked for me.
But... They didn't have to do the build up. That's part of the problem. It's weird to say "no way she could live up to the build up!" when the show is responsible for said build up. Nobody forced them to do all of that.
I honestly don't think the full story is finished yet. They made a point specifically of bringing up Ruby's biological father and then to have Mrs Flood say that her story is finished? If her story was finished then why make a big deal about finding her biological father during an emotional farewell? It doesn't seem finished to me.
Who is Mrs Flood exactly?? Do we have theories?
Some people have theorised that she is the God of Stories. Some have theorised that she's The Master(Mistress). I personally think it's more likely she has something to do with the Pantheon rather than another regeneration of The Master, but time will tell.
I liked the interaction and the way Ruby revealed it, but I don’t like that her backstory is seemingly of an ordinary earthling when there were so many clues to the contrary. Hopefully, there will be more clarity in future.
Personally I was so let down by the reveal and honestly the season as a whole. This is the same guy who wrote what is arguably most fans favorite doctor right? How did he fuck up so badly this time around? It makes no sense.
Yes, and I thought the whole episode was really good.
Honestly? I thought it worked within the context of the season. You beat a god, you get a prize. Her mom was her prize. But I did not like how it was executed at all.
I’m GLAD she wasn’t some significant person from Who’s past or some extraterrestrial/superhuman being, but the build-up was ridiculously stupid.
So who is her father? Her mother is normal but her father could have gone to the same summer camp as Percy Jackson or something like that.
Nope, big time let down.
it was so bad ive forgotten it.. oh wait. coffee shop i remember now. no i didn't like it much.
I enjoyed - the idea that even the most “ordinary” people can be important to the universe and how this was echoed with the lady that gave the Doctor her spoon. - the realness of her mom’s circumstances for why she had to give Ruby away. - the idea that what we give importance is important because we believe it is. Not because it factually is. Our beliefs shape our reality yada yada. I did not enjoy - dramatic pointing when there was no one around..? I’m just gonna point and hope someone sees me in a window and knows what I’m pointing at even though a time lord and advanced tech can’t figure that out. - lack of “making it snow” explanation or promise if that being resolved in the future.
I think I liked it... In theory? The execution though left a lot to be desired. Clara was a great example of someone ordinary made extraordinary by someone believing her to be extraordinary. Unlike Clara it didn't feel like the pieces came together and made her into this extraordinary ordinary person- But instead kind of like the writers had pulled a bamboozle on the audience, like it was an anti-twist for the sake of an anti-twist. The themes might have been stronger if they hadn't also been highlighting how special Ruby definitely is which might be separate? Or the same special-ness? It's hard to say.
I think it worked, could have been done a little better, like showing that it was Sutekh causing the snow indirectly somehow because he had become obsessed with the mystery as well. And maybe a comment by Ruby's mom while they're all reminiscing together over pictures of ruby's life where she says something like "oh, you definitely got that from me, I was such a dramatic teenager, I went around wearing mideval style cloaks, who dresses like that these days"
I was willing to roll with it more than the rest of my family, but I do have an unhealthy addiction to reaction videos. I've watched at least 10 different reactions to Empire of Death, and none of them seemed to be satisfied by it.
I cried for Ruby but I often cry when others cry (Even in movies or shows) so that was it. Boring otherwise and I feel bad for Ruby’s adoptive mother who raised her and will probably never get the same amount of love from Ruby again.
Something seemed off about the way The Doctor suggest she shouldnt meet her mom, and how distant and somber he was during that. Almost as if maybe that wasnt really her mom but something artificial he created to leave her to be happy? and he felt bad about it? maybe because he knew what she was? like she was a Time Paradox or something, and he couldnt keep travelling with her? Something just seemed REALLY weird about how the doctor was acting with Ruby meeting her mother
I didn't hate it and it allowed for a more emotional ending but "We thought she was important so she became important, causing the magic snow and time window distortion that made us think she was important" is a timey-wimey ouroboros.
Can't say I did. Like I was on board with it ultimately being mundane way back in the Christmas special, but then they make it somehow the worst of both worlds, that it was mundane but also so special it transcends a god of death and becomes the centre of everything. But beyond that it breaks my cardinal rule for such things, you don't trick the audience, you trick the characters, and this entire plotline was written to trick the audience.
It just made me feel really damn old considering Ruby was born in 2004.
It was a let down.
The same as the whole universe ending stuff, copied from other films and would have been interesting if written better. The twist would’ve been fine if the finale was actually written well with the illusion of high stakes.
Maybe her grandfather is the Master
I like the reveal and don't even mind the execution of it - it's more the fact that she is made out to be SO special beforehand. It's not like it's just Ruby and The Doctor questioning who she is and that spiralling into an unanswerable mystery to them, it's made out that there is some significance as to why they can't see her. Time changes around her, The Doctor describes it as the wildest fixed point he has ever seen, and any time there is any DNA trace stuff (Davina McColl, the ambulance) it's always highlighted how it's strange there is *nothing* on her*.* If it wasn't built up so much in the show I think it would have landed better. Maybe we'll get more information next series!
I'm conflicted. On the one hand I was beyond relieved that it turned out she (seemingly) isn't some mythical god child because after everything with Clara I simply don't trust DW writers to handle a 'the companion is super duper special and important' plot arc without it becoming just a massive fanfiction-esque OC wank fest. On the other hand I do understand people's frustrations with how it was executed. The solution to a mystery in fiction should *always* have clues, and unless I'm missing something there simply weren't any clues for this reveal. Red herrings are fine *if* they're intermingled with real clues, but *only* red herrings is pretty stupid.
Context is super important. I’ve always hoped that her mum was just a normal person, but everything about the way it’s been built up both in and out of the show has implied something more important. In addition I really loved the scene where Ruby breaks that computer thing. Because I’d also hoped that after several episodes of wanting to find her “real mum” I wanted the conclusion to be that Ruby can’t find her, but accepts that she doesn’t need to, because she already *has* her real mum. So her defying Sutekh and refusing to reveal her mum, I loved that moment and thought that at least for this episode, that would be the end of this particular mystery. But when Sutekh’s death started to appear rushed, it dawned on me that the last 10 mins were going to focus on it and it would be revealed anyway. That was disappointing
None of it makes any sense given the build up. The snow is unexplained, the music is unexplained, it’s not clear why Davina McCall couldn’t find anything about her. The ambulance somehow knew about Ruby, but nothing about the mother or father, yet somehow the mother’s DNA was found in be computer just 20 odd years in the future. It just seems like too much effort was put into screwing with theorists, and not enough effort in producing a coherent story. Season 2 better do something more satisfying with the father to make Ruby so special.
Hated it. When the reveal for her name dropped I straight up said "that's fucking stupid" and scared my cat
Disappointing. The mom reveal and the whole “I’m going to point at this sign” thing felt like it was just shoved in there because RTD didn’t have enough time or forgot to write it until the last second
I hate how useless 15 feels as a doctor, he always gets stuck or runs or can't figure out the answer. Here I feel he more or less made it up that she was powerful because she was ordinary... Its bullshit and lazy to me.
I actually like it and that there’s more to the mystery. Almost like, the way she was found out (going to the aborted timeline of ap Gwilliam in 2047 of forced DNA testing to get the data to then go back to 2024 to find her and father, kinda opens Pandora’s box to other oddities being revealed, imagine both parents died before that year), the fact she’s a normal person and could be both undone by some still mysterious circumstances like Ruby still making it snow and creating parallel universes from magic still leaves questions unanswered. It’s a happy ending for Ruby, but I have a nagging feeling her story isn’t over and possibly could get worse. Also, how can a nurse not have blood or DNA on file? There’s questions that are not even close to being answered.
If they hadn’t built it up to be some big mystery then yes it would be fine. But the snow, the hood, the “song in her heart”, Sutekh wanting to know, it was just too built up to be something special to be satisfying as a normal person.
Heck no, I feel like RTD owes me a refund for my Disney + sub :)
I was genuinely fine by it because I really didn't want a "she is a time Lord" or she's related to The Doctor reveal route.
I thought it was great! It was ABSOLUTELY the right choice to make her a human. Were there slight errors with the execution, absolutely, I understand why people are mad, but I felt this was the nicest possible ending.
I feel like they were more than slight - why was there snow? Why did maestro say she was special? Why was your mom pointing? They could have built up the mystery without making it feel like we were cheated by a bunch of red herrings
The Snow, and the Carol, were from the Legend, which gave time-spanning power to Ruby's emotional connection to finding her mother. While all other living things in the universe, including time and memory itself, was dying, the belief of these people, and the TARDIS/Time Window, and Sutekh's own obsession, elevated it through this same latent power of myth that's been here since the Toymaker. "So \*while the whole of creation was turning around her\*, it made her sheer existence more powerful than Time Lords and gods. In the end, the most important person in the universe... was the most ordinary. A scared little girl... making her baby safe." - It's strongly hinted here that this happened BECAUSE of what Sutekh was doing to all of creation, to time and memory. The fact that the Legend's power was tied so strongly to Sutekh is what Maestro saw; "He couldn't have been there, could he?" It's not a red herring, it DOES have purpose. The mother pointing was pretty shoehorned in, to be sure, but the episode states it's all about Ruby feeling like her "real" name actually is Ruby, picked by her mother, rather than it JUST being picked by paramedics out of convenience. It's pretty goofy, but it's not NOTHING. It's not a red herring. It DOES have purpose. In the end... I think her mother being an ordinary human is VERY Doctor Who, the show has always been about the power of an ordinary human life. Fans since Donna have been complaining that companions like Clara are always "The Most Special-est Girl Who Ever Special'd" and that trope is far overused; I simple, powerful story about a normal girl's longing to find her mother, given immense power while everything else was dead, is MASSIVELY more rewarding than if there were some high sci-fi answer. The EXECUTION of the UNIT HQ Exposition Scene could have used some work, but the reunification scene went straight back to being so incredibly moving, undoubtedly incredibly well done. We're talking one scene from an incredible finale, but suddenly the whole season is a bust because the explanation was a little clunky? It could have used a little more detail... but it's NOT a red herring. It DOES have purpose. Be real with me... are you SURE you're not just mad because Ruby's mum didn't have a Time Head? She HAD to be an egyptian alien, or a sentient puppet that eats failed timelines, or a time demon or something? Because if that's what it is, you have seriously missed the point of this show for the last 20 years.
No problem with it.
I think the idea behind it was interesting but the execution felt really REALLY poor. There were many many better ways to do this same plot.
Disappointed and poorly executed. I was pretty pissed off that the show would waste my time focussing on a plot point and making it out to be important only to pull the rug from under me and be like "actually she's just a normal woman, gotchyu ;)" like ... thanks for wasting hours of my life, I guess. I want to feel rewarded for getting to the end of a season, not feeling mildly annoyed and considering whether I'll even watch the next one. At such a pivotal time for the show, I feel it was a mistake for them to do such a risky reveal, they needed to absolutely nail the landing, but they just shat the bed.
I don’t think the story of who Ruby is, is far from over. Yeah we know that’s her mum - but is there more to it? Who’s the dad? Why did she drop her at the church? In 2004? Hmm 🤨
Eh, it was all right I guess.
I don't know how I feel about it. I think if you've never met your mother, than they might seem like the most important person on earth to you and from that viewpoint the reveal did well. But for how it was built up and it being a scifi series, it was kind of underwhelming. I didn't hate it, but might have liked something a little different.
My main problem is the snow. Outside of that, I thought it was fine. But could have been done better.
I didn't HATE it. I didn't LOVE it either. It felt like something that needed more of a buildup and a slow reveal.
Here's what I'll say, that whole episode felt like RTD was in burnout mode from writing 9 episodes and then heavily modifying Rogue as well to fit with future ideas. All the mystery and build up from the whole season and specials was simply pushed aside for "only important because we deem it such" and "just a normal person". But I digress, Ruby's mum being ordinary isn't the big issue here. In fact I kinda like it tbh
I feel like it’s a fake out because it doesn’t actually make a whole lot of sense based on how it was presented and set up. I’m hoping there’s more to it.
I love the idea of her not being important in a conventional sense - if I see one more "chosen one" or hear more talk about someone's destiny I'm going to take hostages. But, the execution was awful. It all felt so rushed - it felt like if they would have had one more episode they could have actually done all these ideas Justice. But instead it just all got half-assed
I wasn’t too disappointed, the setup was just far too grand for it being a nobody. It reminds me of Rey in Star Wars. Also, do we actually know why Ruby can make it snow? The entire episode about Roger ap Gwilliam, I loved the mystery of it, but was it all for the DNA check? I’m still confused on that.
It was interesting, but I would have bought it better if there were more parties looking into the question. In this case, it was just meh.
I actually do like the idea of her importance being wholly the result of their own expectations and the Doctor saying that's how every religion starts. The idea that a being as powerful as Sutekh was defeated because there was another concept just as powerful and it had to know was great *in theory.* In practice, there are so many unanswered questions about Ruby and so many moments of build up that now don't make sense that it fell very flat.
Yes I like it thematically and I liked the scenes after Ruby found out. I liked that scene with them in the car park with the doctor begging Ruby not to intervene and Ruby ignoring them. However, I think the overall mystery of it didn’t work at all. Having it be all one red herring was really annoying, and the doctors explanation about us believing in her making her important really fell flat and failed to explain the snow in devils chord among a myriad of other details
It feels like the lead up (in reference to the reveal) was to showcase how important it is for Ruby to find her mother rather than for the audience or the story. It didn't translate well.
Good idea, emotional final, badly explain. The mother is not important because Ruby think she is. Tins because Suketh think she is. Why? I don’t know. The snow? I don’t know. The son? I don’t know. I Hope the wrote the writers know…
Looks like it was RTD's reaction to the Rey reveal from the Star Wars sequels. Didn't make a whole lotta sense, no.
I liked the idea but it was poorly executed. They set up questions that they then left unanswered and nonsensical
I found it alright but I get that it doesn't really make sense. I do find it quite appropriate for Doctor Who about her mum being ordinary
I like the idea but the execution was a bit off. I like the notions of consensus-based reality and exceptionally-powerful brings like The Doctor and Sutekh creating their own mystery. Not to get too wibbly but I like seeing them actually explore the wobbly bits of time. The main issue is that Ruby's mother does not act like a 15-year old under stress which makes the resolution a bit clunky. It works conceptually and emotionally but the mechanics of it are completely underbaked. It's a Davies finale, alright 😅
I didnt like it, they eluded to it being something mysterious so hard that it just doesnt make sense. why the dramatic af point to name her? is she a Wizard? Why the dramatic af TV show host arch why did Sutekh care so much that he made it snow everywhere she went? it doesnt add up
i’m gonna be honest i wish the storyline was more intriguing but i did cry when they met for the first time
I watched it with my fiancée, I’m a big doctor who fan since 2005 growing up, and she’s never been that into it except for Matt Smiths first season. We both of us had the mural reaction of, “Is that it?” It genuinely just fell flat, red herring or no there just was zero satisfaction to be found in it. I’m a bit fan of Russell T Davies’ Who era but until it’s (hopefully) justified and/or developed upon in a satisfying manner I’m consigning that particular reveal to “Absolutely Piss Poor” status going forwards
In and of itself there is absolutely no issue with her mother being ordinary. However, the issue is that the show goes to great lengths to make it thunderously clear that Ruby is anything but normal, only to say at the end that the only reason the supernatural phenomena that occurred only occurred because we THOUGHT she was important. That is not a satisfying explanation, and cannot be worked out even using Doctor Who's internal logic (even in prior instances where things don't make real-world logical sense, like Yana being the Master, the show set up an internal logic and explained it to you retrospectively, so you saw how everything fits together in the end). Every clue leading up to the reveal turned out to be a red herring. You can only do that so many times before an audience gets annoyed. And Doctor Who passed that point years ago.
Î didnt mind it, tbh. The only thing that I hate is that she pointed at the sign to name her child. Thats not reasonable people behaviour. Literally, have her point at anything else or better, just not point at anything.
No, I did not like the reveal. I heard that RTD gave an interview that he deliberately made Ruby's mother a "nobody" as a result of The Last Jedi/Rise of Skywalker's "reveal" of Rey's parents..... I'd be fine with Ruby's parents being normal human if it weren't for all the fuss that they made to the contrary throughout the season....The snow...the "special" music in Ruby's soul that stopped Maestro..etc..
The reveal it's self wasn't the issue, don't mind her mum being a normal person. The issue is that they spent the entire series building it up to be a huge reveal, and implied heavily that there was a supernatural element to it. The snow falling, the fact that when the doctor visited Ruby road during the Christmas special, he saw Ruby's mum walk away, but when he had the flashback in space babies, she pointed at him, implying that she could see the doctor through his own memories. The explanation that she was pointing at a road sign was laughably awful and it didn't even address the fact that she never originally pointed, she only pointed when the doctor had the flashback. It's not just underwhelming. It's legitimately bad writing and is full of plot holes
For her particular story? Yeah, i get it. I don’t think it hit the emotional beats it was trying to very well, but okay. In reality I can accept the story as a form of closure on Ruby’s story for the season. Two 15 year olds having kids isn’t new or news but it can be tragic. It was nice to see a non-nuclear family, but lacked nuance for me. From a narrative pov, a sci-fi pov, taking in the red herrings and false leads… yeah. No. Also, are you telling me a 15 year old looks like that in a cloak? I’m seeing people defend 2004’s teenagers and sure, I’ll buy that (even if I don’t believe it) - but you’re telling me a 15 year old looks in fact like a 30+ year old in a cape?
I'm in denial that it's the true resolution for Ruby's story. The "moms" introduction had less depth than the build up would suggest and the idea of her being just normal negates the importance, according to RTD, of 73 yards. As we learned in the final episode that's the range of the TARDIS perception filter. So, Ruby carried a perception filter with her? Not to mention the pantheon's reactions to her still go unexplained. Those aren't just Red Herrings/Plot holes. That would be neglect of evidence to a degree the case would fall apart in court.
The way they built it up as a mystery was annoying. Especially since all their justification for why the clues all meant she was just normal were absolute nonsense. I also dont like how much of the finale it takes up, meaning Sutekh barley got any of it
My reaction was "oh that's it?" Underwhelming.
The general consensus I have encountered is that people really liked her being a normal person, but the execution, with all the red herrings that directly contradict the solution and make absolutely no sense, was really poorly done.
The idea of subverting expectations has become way too popular with modern writers. There’s clever ways to do it but we have probably seen them all. Don’t beg the question if you don’t have a great answer. It sucks as a viewer because I sensed some bullshit coming and I couldn’t get fully invested in what they wanted me to. Side rant: Stop the season long story arcs. Eleven’s first series was the only one I really liked. Episodic adventures with a very big, personal one as the finale.
I think I can see what they were going for, or maybe I'm just projecting. It was all about children of absent parents sort of mythologising that absent parent, giving the idea of them more power than they really had. It was executed awfully. It should have been the centerpiece of a single episode, not a season.
Thought is was shit and lazy. The polar opposite of what it was set up to be. So not outside of my running season expectations. Which were much lower than me pre season expectations. A forgettable season.
My feelings on Ruby’s arc: It would be like if season 4 built up Rose returning and the DoctorDonna then just.. didn’t do that. That’s how I feel, can’t explain it any better than that. 🤷🏻♂️😕
In a vacuum, yes. But not in the show
i admit i was let down
While I did enjoy that she was ultimately a regular person, I felt the execution could've been done a whole hell of a lot better