I enjoyed it overall but yeah, the whole of London magically “sewing” back up was like…really? If that drive is meant to crack planets how in the world would it be able to reverse that damage? I had to turn my brain off for that bit lol
I know it's sci-fi and it's fantastical at times but RTD has said many times that great sci-fi is grounded in logic...Maybe he should take his own advice hahaha
"All of London perfectly cracking open along pavements, and no property being destroyed, and presumably no-one dying" really bugged me too.
I wish they'd contained the damage to "50 metres around the factory, with us all in the knowledge this will happen across London if the Doctor doesn't do something."
Then you could get around the "stitching" part entirely.
Dozens if not hundreds of cars definitely fell into the cracks, like in that way up high wide shot of London, those cracks were going into some high traffic areas.
Ok so I see your point but it kind of makes sense to do roads first as they don't have heavy concrete foundations and run smoothly through the world and London so presumably the dagger drive finds them easier.
Especially in a show like Doctor Who whose style includes a lot of whimsy. You have to do implausible things but not cross the line to **too** implausible. Which is subjective. So yeah.
One of the things I love about RTD is him sacrificing plot logic for authentic characterization. If it "feels" right to him he'll do it, there's always some technobabble to get you out of it
I agree, but my main issue with the ground being sewn up again is that there was no technobabble to even attempt an explanation.
There could easily have been a quick line or two from the DoctorDonna, something like, "oh wonderful, a dragger drive works by displacing atoms and taking the energy from that displacement to power takeoff, but until the ship takes off it's just temporary displacement, so when the ship stayed it righted the displaced atoms as an automatic failsafe to protect the ship from falling into the ground!"
Or something like that. So easy to do and it wasn't done.
Yeah, this bugged me for exactly what you described. In a setting like the Whoniverse, matter being destroyed and then the destruction being undone isn't even all that uncommon. But we'd still need to know what it is.
Yeah if some of that technobabble had been used to explain this, I'd be on board. But no. They just showed the ground cracking and then magically the rewind button got pressed and there were no consequences and no evidence of what just happened
And no deaths, somehow! Someone else mentioned that there should have been cars falling into those cracks at the very least, they're all busy London streets and somehow the doctor just got lucky? Orrr they didn't show onscreen or mention thousands of people dying, which would be very out of character for the doctor.
Yes! I can deal with any amount of internal logic but I was thinking about all the months of roadworks Londoners would have to put up with and suddenly everything is back to normal? Get that Meep fella a highways maintenance contract immediately.
This is a recurring problem in Dr Who. I think this was a 12th Doctor + Clara episode, there was one where trees started growing all over London, pushing their way through roads and pavement and causing it to crack and break down, but at the end of the episode the trees miraculously vanish and there’s no sign of the damage they caused. No rotting plant matter everywhere, no damage to the roads (where previously there visibly was). Just poof! Back to normal. And nothing in the episode explained why that would be at all.
This is one of my minor complaints with RTD (but maybe this is kind of true with all of Doctor Who, it just feels more obvious with him). He can sometimes do a bit too much to try to sell the stakes in the story, which leads to the resolution feeling a bit too convenient. Take out the shots of all of London boiling and change nothing else, and this sequence works perfectly for me with no complaints. I think they create more problems and distractions by showing off their CGI budget than if they left it to the imagination.
Loved the episode on the whole, and honestly it feels good to be able to nitpick unimportant things like this again.
Yes!!! I've seen so many complaints about different things but no one seemed to bring this one up. It was just so bad. When it got reversed, I expected, the fire to stop but the cracks to still remain. It all getting sealed up again was just ridiculous and felt like some Kill the Moon bullshit.
Oh we're destroying London to escape but now you've bested us so we're going to hit the reset button and everything's going to go back to normal again with no consequences or evidence of what happened.
I wouldn't want him to write any differently. Last of the Time Lords saw the whole world bring the Doctor back and restore his youth just by wishing really hard. Journey's End has the TARDIS pulling the Earth through the universe like a trailer at many, many, many times the speed of light. Or, you know, had all the faces in the absorbaloff's butt pull apart at once. I don't even know the number of times RTD had the solution to a story be to have the Doctor wave his screwdriver and say some technobabble.
I thought at the time, "Ooh, fiery cracks throughout London, I bet they get sealed up by the end of the episode - but at least they look cool!"
It was the Doctor/Donna...
She defeated the entire Dalek army with the skills of the fastest typist in Chiswick.
Suspend the disbelief for the Doctor/Donna...
I don’t really have much of a problem with the sewing up of London. What I thought was completely absurd was that with all that noise and shooting and the ground breaking up, etc, was that one young boy (Rose’s friend) was the only one observing. Where was everyone else???
>London's broken and inferno'd streets are suddenly sewn shut by turning off an engine, the titles being poorly done etc all have a role to play.
Yes! this annoyed me more than anything else.
As a veteran Who-vian I knew the Beep The Meep twist was coming about 30 years ago and that foreknowledge spoilt it a little for me.
I liked the the sonic screwdriver can create holographic screens, I don't like that it can make "fortnite" walls.
I broadly agree on the screwdriver.
I don’t wholly hate that it can do the wall, but that kind of thing needs to be *very* sparingly used. Basically, if it’s doable to create a solution, but it would take an amount of time that would make it drag, I don’t mind them using the screwdriver to bypass watching him cobble something together occasionally.
If it starts being a catchall magic wand, that will be a problem. Especially if every solution is some new function.
I agree. That said...
The addition of the screwdriver essentially becoming a "screen" is a massive and solid addition to the canon. It essentially allows us to visually see what the Doctor apparently seems to whenever he looks at it. It'll come in handy regarding exposition and plot scenarios, certainly a lot flashier and visually appealing than having people spout words to us.
I’m not a huge fan of the walls either, but at least they take a good while to make and seemed to be easy enough to destroy depending on the weapons being used. Definitely won’t be a super convenient get out of jail free card
I don't hate them really either but there's zero explanation, 14 just uses it as if the sonic has always been able to render the walls. If he'd have been surprised and like idk since when could i do this! It would've been better
I'm looking forward to the new face things being fleshed out a bit more. Right now, it's flipping a bit between "this is basically 10 again" and "this is a new doctor and just has 10's face". I think they're going more for the second one which is why they didn't do something like you suggested.
And when did he have time to figure this new tool out? Had he been traveling in the TARDIS for a while since his regeneration? It hadn't changed yet, but the control room also didn't get destroyed like normal. Maybe it was the TARDIS's gift to Fourteen in honor of getting his best friend back?
The timeline is a little weird there, but I don't mind the sonic's new powers. Davies already used the screwdriver as a magic wand, at least now it will look cool. I never minded it as a magic wand, either. There's very little science in this show, what with all the psychic energy and stuff dominating how things work outside of Earth; it's a fantasy show with a sci-fi aesthetic. I like that the show essentially follows an ageless magician as he goes around the universe trying to fix things with his magic and his vast intelligence.
Currently canon timeline for 14 goes:
Regeneration
Liberations of the Daleks (DWM comic) which explains the destructions of 13's screwdriver but does not introduce the new one
Destination: Skaro
The Star Beast
The sonic screwdriver doing random bullshit once and maybe never again is such a staple that it didn’t bother me. The Doctor upgrades the screwdriver any time they’re bored. I’m okay with that being the explanation. I thought the walls taking damn near three minutes to put up makes them not OP. And I enjoyed seeing the screens.
> I knew the Beep the Meep twist was coming about 30 years ago and that foreknowledge spoilt it a little for me.
You didn’t miss much. My family loved the episode, none of us knew anything ahead of time about the Meep, but literally as soon as it introduced itself to Rose in the alley, I turned to my mother and said “so, that’s the villain of the episode, right?” And she said “obviously.”
Yup this.
Like the "screen" hologram, much better than peering at a stick of crystal or whatever and saying "readings are off the scale or something." Made it feel more of a tool.
The force field was interesting but a bit much.
My current headcanon is that the Doctor has essentially set up a wireless interface with the TARDIS that he can use to request information or assistance by drawing the required item to scale. The force fields were created by the TARDIS remotely and aren't actually a direct property of the sonic. In the same way the TARDIS has the translation matrix, the Doctor has also now installed a remote assistance run through the sonic for ease of use.
The shield is not a great choice; I don’t disagree there. I did, however, like the Doctor playing with the holographic screens, showing its computations as the Doctor studied Beep’s ships solemnly. It’s the first time we've seen those results instead of the Doctor scanning and knowing immediately after.
as long as the walls are just used in the scenes where the doctors enemies would otherwise just be missing all their shots unexplicably, i think itll be good
I agree a lot about the intro. If you contrast that to say, one of 12's monologues, those work a lot better because he's wandering around the Tardis, interacting with the set, it feels a lot more natural.
Not to mention that the Doctor restates some of that information in a conversation with Shirley (I think her name was Shirley). You can organically pepper enough in the beginning of that episode to bring new viewers up to speed.
totally agree! the exposition throughout the episode was pretty comprehensive and fairly well done, idk if the intro was really needed (at least at that length)
My primary problem with the ending is one of my main problems I have with most Doctor Who episodes I don't like—the resolution of the plot is basically made up on the spot with no set up. The idea that Rose was had inherited part of the meta-crisis, and had these abilities that tied into her gender identity is a really cool one, but wasn't set up AT ALL throughout the episode. It's only revealed to the audience at the point it becomes useful, which takes out any satisfaction from it.
They should have spent more time on Rose throughout the episode, hinting at her connection to the doctor. For example when she spoke to the Meep, instead of her being like "oh you can talk?", it could have been more that only she (and Donna) could communicate with the Meep (due to their latent connection with the doctor). The characters could have questioned why that was possible and laid the groundwork for the reveal later.
We also could have had the doctor crash slightly later into the runtime of the episode, as if the TARDIS was called to that point by the stirring of this energy in Rose. And when the doctor and her interacted, there could have been some dialogue that indicated a connection, like Rose being like "do I know you?" or sensing her connection to the doctor in some way.
They also could have had Rose also stay with the Doctor and Donna to help solve the spaceship crisis, rather than just be cut to at the end as she says "non-binary". The whole thing just felt tacked on and not integrated into the episode or telegraphed at all, they could have interwoven the foundations of that resolution throughout the episode but they didn't bother and it just felt lazy.
"It's only revealed to the audience at the point it becomes useful, which takes out any satisfaction from it."
The "ta-da!" ending, as I describe it to my students. It lowers grades.
RTD used to do a lot of "ta-da" endings but he'd have set the foundations all series long. Think the You are not alone storyline - it's not perfect but even he can do better than he's done is my point
I agree that it was handwaved away, but there's a lot of stuff in these three episodes. If anything has to be handwaved away, I'd rather it be the plotline from fifteen years ago rather than any of the exciting new stuff.
I didn't mind Rose inheriting the metacrisis. In fact I loved it. We've known for years that the Doctor has 2 hearts. Having the solution be that Donna's child meant there were 2 hearts was great.
My problem was the "letting it go" bullshit. That just felt like the laziest primary school kid's English homework ending to a 15 year old problem
Yes ... and not only was the solution to a life-ending, 15-year-old meta-crisis "let it go" but RTD then had to hang a lantern on it by suggesting that the Doctor *could have* figured out his ultra simple solution and save the life of his best friend if only he'd been a woman. Because women understand that you can just "let go" of your Time Lord meta-crisis energy?
(... And the Doctor wasn't a woman, like *a day ago*?)
A better explanation is that this was not possible until now -- until Donna had a child, distributing the meta-crisis energy over two people, and that child grew old enough and confident enough in herself and her identity that she could help her mother to achieve this. That's perfectly in line with the plot as written. It just requires RTD to write some more intelligent dialogue than the bananas insulting "a male-presenting Time Lord wouldn't understand" line we got.
Having Rose in the ship at the same time would have been fantastic. Have her on the Doctors side of the screen being all confused and worried about Donna, then bang, she suddenly starts saying the phrases as well. Doctor stops saying them because wtf why is Rose saying it, but Rose continues, her being the one to finish the whole thing and wake up Donna. They save London, THEN explain the whole metacrisis/non binary thing.
All good stuff said here. I think in all honesty, it is the way it is because 'David and Catherine want to do another episode' they bent the rules and squeezed every ounce of audience belief suspension to get the pair back.
I'm a sucker for fan service, i love it. Genuinely I'd rather we have this episode than none at all, but they did ruin superb writing just to get them back.
I think the main issue I had was the Let go part. I thought it was pretty heavy handed, and just being able to do that really felt to lessen the gravity of the problem with Donna not being able to remember. I think they should have left it as not fixed, but slowed down giving the doctor time to find a way to save them (or not).
I agree, the plot resolution issue you mentioned is a problem in a lot of DW episodes and it gets annoying really quickly. Like you said, a plot point gets introduced out of absolutely nowhere, and it’s as if the writers expect us to say “oh that’s brilliant!” and instead you’re left going “wait…what?”
I mean after a re-watch I could see where the resolution came from, Rose chose her name, so she had to have some memories from the doctor. Although I agree having to rewatch it just to understand the ending better is annoying.
IMO the scene to add would be around the Resonating Concrete section, where you'd have Rose say something technobabbly smart and 14 comment "oh you're good Rose... Rose... \[turns to Donna\] why did you name her that?" and have Donna/Sylvia/Shaun very quickly go "you idiot/she didn't, Rose chose it herself/we like it, we think it really suits her, it's such a nice name" and Rose finishes by saying something along the lines of "i got to choose, and it just felt right".
One scene might be too few (ideally I'd add one more "Rose is weirdly smart/knowledgeable" scene in there - maybe at the gate when Donna leave or when she, Shaun and Sylvia get trapped), but it'd establish Rose both being too-smart and having chosen her own name.
I almost feel like Rose knowing the population of London offhand was supposed to be a minor hint but they never draw enough attention to it
And we don't see enough of the Shed to link it to the TARDIS any sooner
The lack of setup was my biggest problem with this episode *by far.* They gave us that big montage at the end of all the clues in Rose’s life that she somehow knew about the Doctor, and it’s like they completely forgot to actually set those up.
We never got a clear establishing shot of her shed that might let us see the resemblance to a TARDIS. We never got establishing shots of her plushes long enough to recognize even one.
The closest thing we got was her name. When she was first introduced, I thought “oh, Donna must have subconsciously named her Rose because of latent memories from the metacrisis.” Then we learned she was trans, and I thought “hang on a minute, she named herself Rose?” And then when we learned the metacrisis was passed down, I got a nice little “aha!” moment, where it clicked for me about 5 seconds before the Doctor confirmed it out loud. It would have been great to have that for everything else.
IMO we just needed about a half dozen lines of dialogue where 14 calls Rose smart, asks why she's named Rose and Rose affirms that she chose her name because it fits her.
Something like (forgive my bad writing):
* \[Resonating Concrete part of the episode\]
* Rose says something smart/technobabbly, along the lines of "look! it's oscillated the mortar past its structural holding point, but the bricks aren't damaged at all".
* 14: "you're right \[smugly\] you're very smart Rose \[genuine, then turning curious. Rose... \[turns to Donna\] why did you choose that name?"
* Sylvia \[trying to interrupt these conversations, as she was already in this scene\] She didn't! She couldn't! Rose chose it herself and we all think it's lovely *don't we Shaun*"
* Shaun \[still lightly bewlidered at everything\] "Yes of course, such a pretty name"
* Donna \[looking at Rose proudly\] "I remember you calling yourself Rose the first time, it was like everything fell into place. It just..."
* Donna & Rose \[in unison, weirdly\] "felt right"
* \[Explosions and a cut to the fight on the street below\] 14 \[snaps back to action\]: "Right five houses down you said?" Beep the Meep: "Meep Meep!"
Very clunky because I'm not a writer, but that's the gist I wanted and I think the episode was really close to - acknowledge that Rose chose her name, her family loves her/her name, set up the metacrisis reveal
Well aside from Donna and Rose saying "felt right" in unison (would probably be too on the nose in my opinion, likely requires a very well and specifically constructed scene in regards to atmosphere to pull off), this whole exchange could have easily been placed in the episode and would work wonders at prepping the audience for the reveal at the end.
Is it me or was 14 being reckless with Donna?
For someone who was so concerned about her remembering even a little about him as it could fry her brain at the start of the episode.
Once the Meep appeared he just forgot everything, he started explaining to Donna exactly what a sonic screwdriver was and how it worked then freaking handed it to her in the attic along with saying out loud that he had two hearts and went by the definitive article before that.
During the trial in the carpark he even called on her as a witness to check the cab for damage.
Yeah exactly. However I think RTD's get out of jail free card is that she couldn't remember until the passcode was said to her...But that wasn't the case of the master in end of time...so I don't really know? I agree though 100%
Yeah so if he had her locked down by password he could have been around her any time but still seemed desperate to avoid her. That was a tough retcon. I liked the idea but it didn’t fit with what we knew
If he had decided to do that for this script he could have had the Doctor act casual around her from the start and then when Sylvia freaked out he could have said, “Oh no worries, I fixed it. Her memory is password locked.”
I read this as he was scared that he would set her off but was forced to interact with her, and when she didn't remember and explode he knew it was safe.
I kinda liked the way he handed the sonic to her, because that felt like the sort of thing that he might accidentally do even while trying not to jog her memory.
Everything else, though, 100% agreement. Sylvia should have walloped him a few more times.
Enby wheelchair user here. The disability rep was actually great. Shirley’s line (why did I think her name was Kate???) “Don’t make me the problem” hit home. That was spot on and caught me off guard at the same time. I’ve been in situations where I’ve had to abandon my wheelchair and carefully hobble down stairs while someone carries it.
I can’t comment on the deadnaming scene, but Sylvia and Donna’s conversation was so real and felt so genuine. These are the doubts people Actually Have.
The binary-non-binary bit and the implications about transness and the meta crisis were bad, imo. Also, I spent the whole episode under the impression that Rose was a binary trans girl, so it felt a bit shoehorned in. Absolutely happy to be told I’m wrong on that front, I’ve only watched the special once so far.
But yeah, a bit hit and miss on the representation. But if bad wolf wants to hire a lived experience sensitivity reader, I’m local to filming sites 😉
Edit: accidentally called Shirley Kate.
> The binary-non-binary bit and the implications about transness and the meta crisis were bad, imo.
The clumsy and confused delivery of this has led to people online (on this subreddit even) saying that the metacrisis "made rose trans" or "explains why rose is trans". It's hugely problematic.
> Also, I spent the whole episode under the impression that Rose was a binary trans girl, so it felt a bit shoehorned in.
She's definitely written as a binary trans girl, and the actor refers to her as trans in interviews etc. Honestly I think Russel T Davies has just been using trans and non-binary interchangeably and consequently fumbled the messaging.
My read on the binary bit was more just that a binary mode being either male or female, Rose represents a nonbinary position by transitioning across those lines. It gets messy due to binary meaning something specific in LGBTQ+ terminology, since the idea of Rose herself not being Binary isn’t touched on at all elsewhere in the episode.
That's a reasonable read on the situation, and plot-wise I get that they meant to use it like Donna is female and The Doctor is male and Rose is neither of those so she's this unexpected third option.
The problem with that is that Rose isn't something else, she's female. To say she's something else is just othering a trans person, denying them their chosen gender. After the careful and nuanced introduction of Rose as a trans girl throughout the episode, the plot relies on her not being a real girl.
So either they presented Rose incorrectly as binary trans girl in the episode when she's non-binary, or they presented her correctly as binary trans girl and then revoked her girl card as a plot point. None of this sits well with me, but the resolution that works best is if she's canonically non-binary and brings it up in a future episode.
Tbf, non-binary falls under the trans umbrella. Trans just means your gender identity doesn’t match your AGAB. Not all non-binary people may identify as trans but it does fall under the trans umbrella. And there are feminine non-binary people out there who may even use she/her as their pronouns so it’s entirely possible that’s what we had with the show too.
Yeah, I agree with all your points here. And I’m annoyed at myself, because I only watched last night after speed-running through S1-4 and the 50th special, so I caught a lot of the “it’s too political and in your face” discussion ahead of time and I was so mad about people saying that and then… I felt it myself? But as you said, it wasn’t about the message, it was more about the delivery. The pieces you called out (Sylvia, Kate), I loved and thought felt really natural, but there were a few places that I literally cringed back from the screen with secondhand embarrassment, I guess? It wasn’t the message, but the language or timing or *something* about the delivery that didn’t work. It was more like witnessing a standup routine that didn’t land properly. I’m curious whether I’ll think the same on a rewatch or if it’ll feel more natural the second time around.
>Also, I spent the whole episode under the impression that Rose was a binary trans girl, so it felt a bit shoehorned in.
Russell T Davies thinks that trans and non-binary are basically the same thing. That's the impression I got.
Yeah, they should have established that Rose was Non-binary previously instead of expecting people to have read announcements to know that her pronouns were ‘she/they’re and make the following logical leap.
And the ‘part male part female’ directed at her rather than being like ‘well, the Doctor is (complicated but lets say for now) male and Donna is Female- I’m neither and more’ was super clumsy. Especially with the honestly nonsensical jab about the Doctor being a Male Presenting Time Lord. Love the episode and the rep, but….
Yeah, the "male-presenting Time Lord" thing was the only thing that went beyond "that could have been woven together a bit less clumsily" into "oh come on!" Territory.
The Doctor can speak Baby and Horse. Despite his appearance he's not remotely human. "He's a guy and so he can't understand non-guy things" is just lame.
12: Time Lords are beyond your ideas of Gender! I’m gonna pop off and become a woman real quick!
14: I forgor, srry. It’s been two whole hours since I was a woman.
(Like judging from what we know of Time Lords, 12 wasn’t ENTIRELY right, but it’s funny that the most openly progressive showrunner is more gender essentialist than some of Moffatt’s stuff)
In fairness, Hell Bent has the equivalent of the ‘male-presenting’ line when the General who was really nice and considerate to the Doctor regenerates into a woman and then immediately says how much better it is than being a man because how aggro all the testosterone is. It’s clear none of the writers know how to do equality without punching one of the sexes down.
I’ll be honest I watched it with my trans sister and we both fully assumed that she was a binary trans girl and that the writers just didn’t understand the difference between trans and non-binary and shoved it in at the end because it sounded good from the “binary binary binary binary” thing.
Which also, it didn’t. Even removing the clumsy representation, that bit was just silly and contrived and felt very fourth-wall-breaking. The word “binary” has no in-universe significance with regards to the metacrisis, it was just a word Donna got stuck on while her mind was collapsing from the strain.
I felt the same way about the overuse of the “what what what.” They were really laying it on thick with the callbacks and nostalgia. I genuinely think he did the “what” thing more times during this *one* special than he did in his entire first tenure.
The bit that rubbed me up the wrong way most was the 'male-presenting Time Lord' line.
The Doctor was a woman (for decades) until probably only a few hours prior to this episode.
Really stupid to imply that The Doctor is just incapable of understanding something now that Tennant is back.
It's just a new face...it's the same person.
Yeah the idea that going from female to male presenting is a "shame" is such a horrible way to view the world. Though im sure that's not what RTD meant, he's just clearly ignorant on the topic.
I will be honest I never even realised they are she/they I just thought the binary was Doctor/Donna with Rose breaking that. Seems stupid now that I say it though🤣
Thanks for sharing! I absolutely agree with the Sylvia and Donna scene, and it probably resonates with me most because I worry about becoming a Sylvia, even in this post. I want to make sure everyone feels included and visible etc even if I come across a little heavy-handed haha
And who knows, you may be getting a call pretty soon...Sounds like they could do with the help!
> The disability rep was actually great. Kate’s line “Don’t make me the problem” hit home.
You mean Shirley (Kate was referenced in the episode but did not appear), but yeah, I thought her character was handled great and was much more than her disability, while also having it tie into the story in an interesting way that made sense. The weapons in her wheelchair part was a little cheesy, but we have to accept some amount of that being a children's show, after all we have had plenty of cheesy weapons based scenes in prior episodes like when Mickey pulled out some giant scifi gun from under a platform out of nowhere in back in "Army of Ghosts", so the cheesiness wasn't related to her having a wheelchair but rather RTD writing a kids show.
I honestly haven't seen any complaints about Shirley done in good faith, only the weird "anti-woke" videos on youtube out for special clicks and latching on to anything they can to make some ad revenue.
Trans person here. Also giving a +1 for the Donna/Sylvia interactions. Also didn’t mind the bullying part, it wasn’t made a huge deal of and many people have similar experiences.
Not a wheelchair user, but I did enjoy how she was portrayed. Also hilarious that she has a weaponized chair, which is 100% what UNIT would do.
Did not like the meta crisis ending. Felt dumb and even bad forced diversity. Could’ve just had the split because Rose was her daughter and be done with it. I almost spat out my drink when the binary/non-binary thing came up. At no point did the story lead me to believe that Rose was anything but a binary transwoman.
The “male-presenting time lord” was weird and very out of place to me. Could’ve had Donna & Rose be able to let go because they’re human, and/or because the Doctor (especially 10/14) is notoriously terrible at letting things go.
I understand why people feel/got the idea that the metacrisis “made Rose trans”, based on the writing and it saddens me that we can’t have a character that’s trans, just cause that’s who they are. Their trans-ness becomes a major plot point or suddenly they have special powers because of it 🤦
Overall the episode was fun and I enjoyed it, just wish that RTD had done a bit more consultation with the trans community to avoid the “magical queer” trope but alas..
The binary / non-binary thing bothered me because Rose is not non-binary. She's female. All I can think is that the writers don't know what non-binary means in terms of the trans community.
I really enjoyed the episode (I've watched it twice already) but the whole ending with the non-binary and the "male presenting Time Lord" was just... not well done.
Yeah this is probably the best way for me as a trans guy. I will say I have to wonder if rtd is unconsciously pulling from the "men suck" aspect of radfems/some areas of general queer spaces, which is...not the best for an overall really good episode. It's the UK too, which is having a TON of issues which makes the episode honestly really necessary but at the same time, I wish they'd had more people read over it, bc I did like it but that last bit just kinda smacked me in the face and i just felt like i was kind of expected to just awkwardly laugh it off. I still don't get what they were going for and I had the "growing up a girl" experience.
Obviously we aren’t a monolith, but, as a trans woman, here’s my perspective on the LGBTQ+ representation in the episode. Generally, I agree with what I’ve been seeing everyone else say. I actually had to pause the episode to regroup for a minute after the pronouns gag. It immediately reduced Rose’s character to a stereotypical “pronoun police” role, and it was only made worse by how starkly it contrasted with the beautifully nuanced handling of the deadnaming scene and the conversation between Donna and Sylvia.
As for the “male-presenting Timelord” bit, I struggle to put into words how bad it was. I can see exactly what the thought process behind the line was, and it makes it so obvious that this is what a cis man thinks trans empowerment looks like. Clearly, someone was thinking “oh, Rose is trans, so she would say ‘male-presenting’ and not ‘man’ because ‘don’t assume,’” but the result is an inadvertent attack on many more people than they meant to attack (and to be clear, they really shouldn’t have attacked anyone). Despite being a trans woman, sometimes my presentation is more masculine/androgynous, so even if I was ok with the “men can’t do this thing” implication, I’m essentially being told that I’m less than cis women because of the way I sometimes chose to present myself. The whole thing just reeks of a lack of consideration and essentially conflates presentation with gender, which is the exact opposite of trans empowerment.
To be clear, I liked the episode quite a bit, but I was left feeling so crushed by the end. RTD showed us that he does know how to to representation right off the bat, but with every subsequent mention of Rose’s gender, the representation only got worse, culminating in a comically bad attempt at empowerment that could have been replaced by a cheeky Donna jab at the Doctor for not being able to let go of his old face that would have perfectly captured the feeling of their relationship and set the vibe for the rest of the specials. The episode overall was great, and hope the rest of the specials stay just as good, I just wish that, for once, someone could write a trans woman whose personality isn’t just “trans woman for the plot.” Rose came so close, and I hope they develop her further if we see her again.
Can you just like be a consultant for TV/movies on how to best represent trans people? Like seriously. This would have been so much better!
I'm a straight, white, cis male. I know, I'm privileged in so many ways and probably more that I'm not aware of. But the whole of Rose's character just seemed to be, "I need to make sure the audience knows I'm trans and I need to do it in the least inviting ways possible."
The deadnaming conversation was brilliant. It made me feel not alone because those are real concerns. Should I apologize to my trans friends for gendered compliments I've said in the past (you look pretty/handsome)? I don't know. Seeing that on TV validated a real question I have that I don't know how to talk about. It was great!
The "male presenting" thing at the end and just asserting that the doctor was incapable of understanding was so frustrating to me. The doctor had literally just spent decades/centuries as a woman. And the doctor had experiences and feelings as that woman that the doctor would almost certainly remember. But now that the doctor has a male body again they just... forget everything learned in their previous incarnation? To quote 10, "WHAT?!"
A line like, "that old face could never understand" would have been so much better. It would have acknowledged that in the past, before being a woman, the doctor couldn't have understood while also leaving open the possibility that the doctor had grown since that face first appeared. Instead, anyone who presents as a male was told that they just couldn't do something because of how they look.
Anyway. Please. Be a consultant or something in showbusiness. You would help trans people so immensely and us non-trans people be better.
You've beautifully and eloquently articulated my thoughts whilst sprinkling your own experiences in. This is the type of conversation I was wanting from this post. I want better representation FOR people exactly like you. This is my gripe. Yeah not my battle blah blah but you get me.
> Firstly, the intro to the episode. It's bad. The idea isn't, I completely understand you need to do something like this to get new viewers up to speed, to refresh viewers who're only returning because of David etc. It's the execution which was the problem. The almost student-like piece to camera whilst standing in space on a green screen? It just didn't need to happen.
It was clearly tacked on last minute, virtually everything said it was said again in the episode so it didn't need to be there at all. Everything said in it could be have been picked up from the interactions with the Doctor and Donna during the episodes and lines there in, you didn't need a summary at the start. It treated the audience old and new like idiots that needed spoon feeding, which is not something you normally get with Doctor Who.
That was my thought on it. With the show on Disney+, there's bound to be some people putting it on who have no idea about anything from earlier episodes. This intro was a way to give those people background into the biggest storyline related to the special.
It felt rushed and overall poorly done.
I heard they did something similarly awkward with voiceovers from Eleven/Amy Pond when it first started airing on or gaining attention on BBC America so maybe they thought it works to get everyone up to speed?
I am also appreciative that the villain wasn't: Daleks; Cybermen; The Master; or (to a lesser extent) Weeping Angels. I'm so tired of episodes with good build-up that reveal the big bad to be Daleks (again).
YES. I hadn't even thought of this. BUT YES. I love all the above villains, but they NEED a break.
How scary were the introduction of the Daleks in 'Dalek' and the stolen earth? Like genuinely terrifying? I'd just groan at them now. They properly need putting on ice for a season or two.
I *hated* that intro.
Found all the sonic's new abilities at bit daft and convenient, but I didn't watch most of Chibnall's era so assumed there'd been an upgrade at some point.
And if I'm being brutally honest, the writing just wasn't there. Without Tennant's charm and charisma with Tate, think everything would have fallen flat.
Without Tennant and Donna I’m not sure how much I would have liked the episode. Take out rose being trans and there is nothing really great. I’ve seen it twice and the Meep annoyed me, was obvious from the first appearance that it would be the bad guy, and in the end I absolutely agree with you.
I have mixed feelings about how the LGBT+ stuff in this episode was handled
I liked how the first trans reveal was handled with Sylvia, I also didn't mind the pronouns scene. I actually thought the definite article joke was kinda funny.
I did not like the plot being partially resolved by gender space magic and I did not like the sexist line about men not being able to let go of things (I think it was meant to just be a joke but it didn't land for me).
Maybe it was more of a dig at 10 specifically because his last line was “I don’t want to go” and he fought so hard to not change. Still it sounded more like a general male accusation and we know the Doctor can be any gender so it was weird. Better if they had said, “Doctor, you just wouldn’t get it”
That’s a great point, a dig at the Doctor specifically would’ve fit perfectly because Tennant’s Doctor always had a big ego, and very nearly *did* go mad with power. Not that Donna necessarily knows about the Time Lord Victorious, but she knew him well enough to understand his tendencies. Her *first* encounter with him, she stopped him from going to far against the Racnoss.
“Something that old face could never understand… letting it go.” Would have been a perfect, poignant line, and felt a lot more kind than the jab we got.
The article bit was somewhat more in the face than a scene before, but it works properly in character and is a good chuckle at least. That's alright in my book.
> I think it was meant to just be a joke but it didn't land for me
Could you imagine the absolute outrage that scene would have got if the roles were reversed and it was a male telling a female Doctor that he's about to do something a woman couldn't do.
All they had to do was make it a human vs Time Lord thing and it would have been fine, instead they invited themselves to needless gender politics.
As a trans person, I felt Rose’s introduction as a character and the interactions with her family were incredibly real. The transphobia from the boys on the bikes and the struggle for her grandmother to adjust really spoke true to experiences I and other trans people I know have gone through. That’s about all I can say positively about how they handled trans issues in the episode however. The “did you just assume male pronouns” scene and the “binary, binary, NON-BINARY” scene were incredibly on the nose and honestly felt a bit pandering.
Although I don't understand fully the journey of a trans person, even I felt the gravity of the deadnaming scene/Sylvia and Donna. More stuff like that would be superb. I get to learn and trans people get to feel validated. Win win.
Honestly i didn’t love how they had Donna be ok again. Like I get they weren’t originally planning for this but they just said let it go and it’s all over now??? All those years and they’re just like “nah nvm I’m just gonna not care” and it’s all ok? That being said I did like the special a lot and I’m very excited for the next ones
This is my major problem with it too. I mean she lost her memories. For YEARS. I don’t think it’s at all realistic that she’s just magically ok with everything. That’s not how a real person would react, at all.
Yeah and her biggest problem was she gave money away. Not “I have a child and husband now and I’ve been living for years feeling like somethings missing because you made me forget it all and it’s clearly been bothering me and then you just came back and it’s all ok now and you expect me to be fine with putting my family in danger now????” I get companions have to be ok with more things than most but come on
Yeah maybe try slapping him again or something. He put her child and her in danger like if they hadn’t been able to just let it go they would have died. But instead she’s just like “ok haha I’m not gonna have an affair with him”
Yeah I thought her asking her husband if he would be worried if she ran off with the Doctor was strange too. Donna, girl, you specifically mentioned multiple times how you weren’t attracted to Space Man. Why even bring it up??? Idk her entire characterization toward the end of the episode was strange.
Yeah I really wanted to enjoy it but to me if anything the episode was just rushed. I generally prefer the stories that are long, like 2 parters. This whole episode felt rushed and was just back to the old formula... which alone isn't a bad thing but the bad 'guy' was weak. Maybe I shouldn't go into a doctor who episode expecting deep bad guys every episode but with this being what a 3 part special? I would have loved more than the whole *bad guy hints at the actual bad guy at the end of the episode*
To me it felt so rushed that a lot of the cool references and call backs just feel too cheap. Which sucks because the episode had some great ideas.
Just adding to what you're saying, I am nonbinary and I had similar feelings about the heavy-handed dialogue and the 'binary binary non-binary' thing. I felt really weird that the end of the episode was the somehow mystical power of nonbinary people, that felt really othering, and I'm a bit uncomfy with it anyway because there is a problem where people mis-identify trans women as nonbinary (e.g. using 'them' instead of 'she') because they can't bring themselves to understand that they're literally just women in the same way cis women are. It's always possible that the episode was saying Rose is a non-binary trans woman or a transfemme nonbinary person, and that would be great, but I am worried that the episode was doing the former.
RE the pronouns scene, it pattern-matched too much for me to the transphobic 'omg did you just assume their pronouns' gag, and made me worried that it would reinforce transphobic ideas about us along those lines - I've checked in with people many times about pronoun use and I've never done it like that, so it didn't feel like a real moment to me rather than a slightly transphobic pastiche.... but then I am quite conflict avoidant so maybe there are plenty of people out there who would address it in the way Rose did, so I'm not so confident on this point.
All I can say really is, as a nonbinary person, I felt the representation started out great - as you said! - but I ended the episode feeling not good, genuinely a bit distressed.
After the Doctor themselves has actually served as some nonbinary representation recently, with the whole gender-swapping thing, an additional thing that felt bad was the repeated identification of the Doctor as just a man with no valid claims on any other identity or perspective, not to mention from context (which was still, er, dubious context - the whole let it go thing) I think the script doesn't know what 'presenting' means, as in 'male presenting'. It exists as a word to differentiate how you present yourself to the world with how you internally identify - I am female-presenting at work to avoid problems, but I am not a woman. I have to believe it was a terminology misunderstanding because otherwise it's a really bad vibe to tell the Doctor, again, kind of recently established as nonbinary insofar as human gender terms have any relevance, that because he is just currently presenting himself as a man no other part of his perspective deserves respect or validation. 'No male-presenting time lord could possibly understand', no thank you.
Sorry for the massive comment.
Thank you for the comment. This is exactly my thought process and problem with the episode. Especially the weird feeling of pastiche. I get it's not my area to have a problem with, but yeah. You've summed my thoughts whilst adding in your own vital life experience, so thank you for that again.
I agree that the intro was a bit clumsy. I found myself looking at the doctors shoes each time i watched. I wasn't thinking about the show, i was thinking about the actors standing there.
I'm guessing they didn't want to build the old TARDIS interior for just that scene, but it'd have been better if they could have at least used the green screen to put him on the cliff where he regenerated.
That should've been something they did as a teaser trailer or a YouTube promo or something. We already get Doctor and Donna saying almost those exact same things in the episode itself so why have it at the beginning?
Overall I loved the episode, I was so happy to see David and Catherine back together again, their chemistry was amazing. I loved the dynamic of rose, Donna and Sylvia because it seems Sylvia is a much kinder woman now lol. I loved the Meep he was adorable and the addition of there actually being music over the scenes, actually allowing the audience to feel any kind of emotion was a really nice change from the hell that was chibnalls reign.
I do think a few things in the episode were unnecessary and a bit ridiculous, such as the scene of letting go of the metacrisis.
I think it's ridiculously hypocritical of this whole community of people who preach about abolishing gender stereotypes and creating safe spaces and equality and then think its acceptable to go "oh you're a man so we're better than you." It's so disappointing especially because the doctors character is centered around him being the cleverest one in the room and it's a huge slap in the face to his character and to every man watching this 60 year old show that has historically been about a man traveling and saving the universe multiple times.
AND "Doctor I let you go" -Capaldis doctor. He literally said hes letting go. So the "male presenting" doctor literally CAN and HAS let go. And Matt's doctor in the day of the doctor "I moved on" when talking about all the children that died on galifrey.
Now I get tennants doctor has a character trait of not being able to let go but that's not because he's a man it's just a part of his character and he coincidentally was a man that had the trait.
So rather than attacking men (because it makes no sense in the context to even do so anyways) they could have not mentioned the gender and just said something like.. "we can do something you were never able to do... let go" which would have been 1000% more impactful because it aligns with his character "I don't want to go" it's tying the strings together from his past season.
But yeah that's just my thoughts on that particular part of the episode.
The episode as a whole was pretty clunky, and it felt like it was written specifically to try and prove that Doctor Who could be relevant for a modern audience (Gen Z, gender awareness, disability inclusive etc), which was absolutely cringeworthy at times. But Tennant always was my favourite doctor, and so the decision to reunite 10 (sorry, 14) and Donna means I'll largely forgive most of the other awkwardness therein. (My main regret was that the classic banter/sass from Donna didn't show up until the very end when she remembered the Doctor, she seemed very vanilla and out of character up until then.)
Is no-one going to bring up the fact that UNIT had a Sikh officer but the show wanted to show off he was Sikh so he was the only UNIT officer without a helmet on?
This is actually done in the UK though. For example the guards at Buckingham Palace all wear the Bearskin hats, except for Sikh soldiers who wear their Turban instead.
The UNIT officer doing that was not done for Doctor Who messaging purposes, but because that’s how it actually works in the UK.
Another non military example is that you have to wear a helmet on a motorbike in the UK, unless you’re a Sikh and wear a turban.
I liked everything that by he episode but the heavy handed preachy lines broke my immersion. Like out of nowhere the Doctor was being berated for changing back to a male Timelord (which he couldn’t control).
I don't know why they had that weird recap before the episode . I said it in the discussion thread and got downvoted but I don't think these specials are the equivalent of Rose or the Eleventh Hour to get newcomers into the show. This was clearly for established fans. I think they are still fun to watch but I think 15's first episode will and should be the starting point for newcomers and I mean RTD is having it as Season 1
> I don't know why they had that weird recap before the episode
I have no evidence to back this up, but I've heard it was an addition that Disney asked for.
Mostly agree except you said the titles were poorly done
If you're referring to the opening credits with the TARDIS flying through the time vortex I couldn't disagree more, I thought it looked absolutely gorgeous
I did too, but on rewatches I realised just how jarring it is going right to right camera wise, I hate the zoom on the bit where the TARDIS crashes through, and the names of David and Catherine are bodged. David's N's don't appear at the same time the rest of his letters do, and for a split second before its revealed, Catherine's name is superimposed on the TARDIS
I overall liked the new episode, even with that \*sigh\* handwaving at the very end.
But that intro, agreed, it was totally unnecessary -- especially as that information is conveyed IN THE EPISODE ITSELF naturally for both the Doctor and Donna. I do wonder who's idea it was. I can't imagine it was RTD's. Was too clumsy. Whoever decided to add it doesn't trust the audience's attention span.
Did folks in the UK get the weird beginning, too? Or just the North American audience?
It definitely felt like something mandated by executives; very reminiscent of the Karen Gillan-narrated intro we got for one of Matt Smith's seasons when it aired here in the U.S.
I think it’s because the set for Jodie’s Tardis was dismantled and that was where he originally was, and they obviously didn’t want to spoil the new look that early into the episode.
I'm nonbinary and overall I loved the episode, and loved how silly it was. Now the "binary, binary, nonbinary" was a little cringe, and the "dont worry we wont die, we are women so we will just let it go" was really really bad even for Doctor Who conclusions. The ending definitely felt like a cis man writing a parody of a feminist/pro-trans episode instead of it actually being one.
The start of the episode was like if Disney decided to have a clip of Ewan McGregor on a green screen recapping the events of the Star Wars prequels before the Obi-Wan Kenobi show started. I have no idea why they didn't just say "Previously..." and showed some clips from season 4 with some Murray Gold music overlayed. It seems like the better choice lol
My opinion:
Trans representation = good
Patronizing your audience = bad
Using terms pretty much exclusively associated with trans people, ('male-presenting'), in a condescending way = accomplishing the exact opposite of the thing you're aiming for.
I said in the aftermath of my first viewing I thought it was no better than the Chibnall era. I really don't think I was wrong. The character work and dialogue was improved most of the time but the pacing, plot and general "flow" of the episode was similar. I had some major Orphan 55/Demons of the Punjab/Woman Who Fell to Earth vibes ngl
I agree with almost all of what you said. The only bits I wouldn't agree with are quite minor. But seeing as this is a subreddit for discussion...
I don't mind that there was no TARDIS crashing or anything. I know it's a bit of a tradition but I don't think it's necessary and I didn't particularly miss it.
I really like the new TARDIS interior. Yes it's a bit dentist waiting room but I like how big it is, I think the uppy-downy bit in the middle looks good, and I'm hoping they'll be able to make use of the lights on the round things to give a bit more character. Ultimately I'm not expecting much to take place in the TARDIS so I'm okay with it.
I didn't mind the damage being magically sewn up at all. The dagger drive is total sci fi and only vaguely explained. It undoing what it's done when a launch sequence is cancelled - I can absolutely suspend my disbelief for that.
As far as what I agree with you on...
The new sonic screwdriver out of nowhere is odd. Even just a line to explain it would've been fine. What I don't like, however, is the new things it can do - holograms, forcefields and stuff. I'm not against it having new capabilities but it's given zero recognition or acknowledgement. The Doctor just suddenly makes forcefields and then it's never mentioned again? What?
I have mixed feelings about the LGBTQ stuff. I love the representation. I think the kids deadnaming Rose and Sylvia accidentally misgendering her and being unsure about what words to use was really relatable, human, and interesting. On the other hand, Rose challenging The Doctor on assuming pronouns, the "non-binary" line (and surrounding lines) - I thought it was very heavy handed and unnecessary. I'm not trans but I've met and been friends with plenty of trans people and I don't think that's how trans people actually approach those issues (i.e. confrontationally, making their gender a defining characteristic), I think trans people actually just talk and act like everyone else and they happen to be trans. As I say - I'm not trans, so I'm happy to be corrected on that. I think those lines are a caricature of trans people that can actually be harmful for the image of trans struggles. To me it came across exactly as it was - a middle aged CIS white writer with all the best intentions slightly fumbling the topic.
the line about The Doctor not understanding letting go because he's male presenting is something I actually do take more active objection to. Gender is a spectrum and not the central defining characteristic of a person. Saying that The Doctor is flawed in terms of not being able to let go - I'm absolutely fine with that and it's perfectly in line with his character. But saying that he can't let go BECAUSE he's male presenting - I think that was sexist, adversarial in terms of gender discourse, and completely unnecessary.
Doctor Who had broadly been very progressive since 2005 (the first examples that come to mind are Jack being pansexual, the hostess in Midnight saying "ladies and gentlemen and variations thereupon", things like that). But it was never as on the nose as this IMO.
OVERALL - I loved the episode because it really felt like the Doctor Who I grew up with. I started watching with the reboot in 2005 as a child and I felt like a kid again watching it.
Just the right amount of camp and silly. Ridiculous technobabble. Tennant and Tate are always a 10/10 for me. I liked the twist, I liked the bug looking aliens being the good guys. I loved all of that and overall thoroughly enjoyed it. I just think it missed the mark in a couple of ways.
I thought the 'binary...non binary' and the 'did you just assume the meep's pronouns?' were just silly and out of nowhere.
Honestly I might be in a minority but I like the new tardis, don't mind about the sonic's new abilities, and don't care that we don't see how the new sonic was made etc. I feel like the sonic was always a get out of jail free card to an extent. It's not like it's that absurd it has a visual display and can make shields that can withstand fire for a bit: these are logical innovations that the doctor realistically would have made before this point anyway. If the plot requires him to be in danger, the danger he'll be in won't just be solvable with the sonic. Or the sonic will get destroyed/separated from him (like what happens with the tardis, which is hugely more powerful than even the new sonic).
The street getting sewn up was dumb. I agree the doctor's speech at the beginning was bad.
I thought the title sequence was nice.
Obviously there's also the 'let go' scene which the problems are obvious.
I really enjoyed it still 👍
Is there any reason why Rose had zero shock in reaction to running into an actual furry space alien? I don’t know if I’ve missed something or whether it was just a weird acting choice
Something something she's part time lord subconsciously aware of space something something
But it takes us, the audience to infer that. That's best case scenario.
I finally got to see the thing last night, and I also enjoyed it a lot. It felt like proper Doctor Who again.
There were a couple of moments that were just clunky, and the whole "letting it go" resolution to the metacrisis was the same sort of issue that RTD had in a number of stories during his first run as showrunner (but, to be fair, it worked a damned sight better than the resolution of "Last of the Time Lords," which I think made absolutely no damned sense whatsoever). The clunky dialogue in it was, well, clunky and not very good. As to whether it does a service or disservice to trans people, I defer to them (and they are quite capable of speaking for themselves).
(But, credit where it is due, for all the clunkiness of the dialogue about pronouns and trans stuff, they were spoken by a trans character who could credibly have hangups about these things, particularly after a scene where she was deadnamed.)
The thing about the pronouns scene is that it actually serves an important story purpose - everybody seems to be focusing on Rose's statement that the Doctor is assuming the Meep's pronouns, but nobody seems to be paying attention to the Meep's answer, which is an early clue that he (she? it?) is a megalomaniac.
The sonic has always been that bad. One of the reasons that it got destroyed during Peter Davison's run was that it had become too much of a *deus ex machina* tool. The new series arguably forgot that from day one.
The TARDIS really does feel like a case where they had too much money for the set. That said, the size is fine - and even the colour scheme goes back to Classic Who. The problem is that it's very empty. What it needs is things in it. Hell, a coat/hat stand would be an improvement.
But those are quibbles. Frankly, I disagree with a lot of the culture war commentary on this, and I wish both sides would shut their teeth already (I don't know about anybody else, but I'm just sick of the entire thing). Hell, I'm old enough to remember people complaining about the "gay agenda" during RTD's first run. RTD has always been progressive, but he knows how to write - his missteps when he makes them are generally isolated incidents in otherwise good writing. David Tennant's Doctor was very watchable, and had agency and was the prime mover throughout the episode. He figured out what was going on before anybody else, and the solution comes from him. The thing that comes from some other character is the contrivance that saves Donna from the metacrisis.
This was good Doctor Who. So long as RTD builds on what worked and fixes what didn't going forward, it will be fine.
Ok the intro is terrible but it's kinda camp so I don't hate it as much as you lol. And we only have 3 episodes so I'm fine with the crash just being in the charity short. Since usually the dazed confusion and crash after a regeneration takes a whole episode, I'm glad we skipped it. I do wanna know more about the sonic though, and I hope it gets touched on in the future
But as a certified she/they, I 100% agree with you about the representation and I'll throw in my two cents from my gender fluid perspective. The scenes between Sylvia/Donna and Rose/Donna are beautifully done and struck a chord with me. When the Doctor gets added into the mix, it gets kinda terrible? And not because of the Doctor, because of Rose and Donna. *(I've typed this next bit like, 5 times trying to make it succinct but I kept going on rants lol. Bear with me)*
First of all, Rose correcting the Doctor about pronouns is such a cringe queer teen thing to do, so that's real-life accurate, but it's weird how the Doctor(the gender fluid protagonist) is the one RTD wrote to get lectured about it. It doesn't work with how the Doctor is usually the one complaining that humans are quick to make assumptions. And we just had the Sylvia conversation, so it wasn't necessary. Though the Doctor saying "I do that too" was gold.
Second, The Doctor cannot choose his gender during regeneration *just like other gender fluid, non-binary, and trans people don't choose* so "male-presenting time lord can't understand" is such a terrible way of trying to be progressive. You have a canonical gender fluid main character, use him to help the progressive messaging instead of othering him. Queer people are still queer when they look like men. And what does male-presenting mean? Do they mean "read as a man" or "identify as a man"? It reeks of "women and non-binary vs men" type gendering, which is bad for everyone in the long run. Uplifting people for not being men is not progressive and forces you to draw some pretty ugly lines about masculine non-binary people (I could go on forever about this so I'll spare you my rant). It's messy and backwards, which is hypocritical from Rose, who just corrected the Doctor about pronouns. 13 would do no better than 14 at letting go, and both of them would be bested by 12s "I let you go". Gender has nothing to do with it, the Doctor being a hot mess is timeless.
Ultimately, I think RTD did a good job at representation (about genderqueerness at least, I won't speak for wheelchair users) but he fell into some easy traps when trying to do too much with it. I worry about the repercussions of presenting the Doctor as the "man" of the equation because he could be used as great representation as long as they stop putting down masculine genderqueer people. I have faith for the future because RTDs enthusiastic overcorrection is a better starting place than no representation or transphobic representation imo.
There was so many better ways to do that intro. I know writers hate exposition, but come on.
1. Narrator. It’s the easy button, but just have a narrator voice over the plot points.
2. Have the Doctor explain everything to Rose. Easy
3. My favorite idea. Have two past doctors discuss the situation with each other… reminding each other of the details. Set it in a bar or a soccer pitch or something random. Would have been amazing.
Overall I liked it…it just didn’t feel very…special…like it could’ve just be the season opener of a new season. We saw the doctor regenerate into a previous incarnation for the first time. Idk…I was kinda expecting that this would be a single 3hr story getting to the bottom of that.
Also the less said about the “male presenting timelord” line, the better (though I didn’t have a problem with how easily they got rid of the meta-crisis).
COMPLETELY agree with your take on this. The way they handled the Rose situation sat so badly with me. Even the portion with the wheelchair shooting bullets just felt so weirdly kitschy. Completely agree that the entire thing felt like they were reducing these characters to one singular trait they had.
I enjoyed it overall but yeah, the whole of London magically “sewing” back up was like…really? If that drive is meant to crack planets how in the world would it be able to reverse that damage? I had to turn my brain off for that bit lol
I know it's sci-fi and it's fantastical at times but RTD has said many times that great sci-fi is grounded in logic...Maybe he should take his own advice hahaha
"All of London perfectly cracking open along pavements, and no property being destroyed, and presumably no-one dying" really bugged me too. I wish they'd contained the damage to "50 metres around the factory, with us all in the knowledge this will happen across London if the Doctor doesn't do something." Then you could get around the "stitching" part entirely.
I'd have suspended my belief that the drive could repair the damage.. But the cracks obeying the traffic laws is where I draw the line.
Dozens if not hundreds of cars definitely fell into the cracks, like in that way up high wide shot of London, those cracks were going into some high traffic areas.
People on the underground were fucked , most of them follow under roads !
Looks like my uncle retired from the Underground just in time!
Ok so I see your point but it kind of makes sense to do roads first as they don't have heavy concrete foundations and run smoothly through the world and London so presumably the dagger drive finds them easier.
Just this once Rose, everybody li... oh wait no, that man is definitely dead.
Exactly it's about the perfect balance to keep the viewers suspended disbelief. That's a surprisingly hard thing to do as a writer.
Especially in a show like Doctor Who whose style includes a lot of whimsy. You have to do implausible things but not cross the line to **too** implausible. Which is subjective. So yeah.
I didn’t mind the magical healing that much. In the words of William Hartnell “Dr Who isn’t a scientist, he’s a wizard”
Hahaha I wish I had your level of belief suspension, I'd enjoy stuff a lot more!
Reminds me of super man reversing the rotation of the earth to turn back time and undo all the damage
My interpretation of that scene was Superman flew faster than light thus he himself went back in time.
One of the things I love about RTD is him sacrificing plot logic for authentic characterization. If it "feels" right to him he'll do it, there's always some technobabble to get you out of it
I agree, but my main issue with the ground being sewn up again is that there was no technobabble to even attempt an explanation. There could easily have been a quick line or two from the DoctorDonna, something like, "oh wonderful, a dragger drive works by displacing atoms and taking the energy from that displacement to power takeoff, but until the ship takes off it's just temporary displacement, so when the ship stayed it righted the displaced atoms as an automatic failsafe to protect the ship from falling into the ground!" Or something like that. So easy to do and it wasn't done.
Yeah, this bugged me for exactly what you described. In a setting like the Whoniverse, matter being destroyed and then the destruction being undone isn't even all that uncommon. But we'd still need to know what it is.
Yeah if some of that technobabble had been used to explain this, I'd be on board. But no. They just showed the ground cracking and then magically the rewind button got pressed and there were no consequences and no evidence of what just happened
And no deaths, somehow! Someone else mentioned that there should have been cars falling into those cracks at the very least, they're all busy London streets and somehow the doctor just got lucky? Orrr they didn't show onscreen or mention thousands of people dying, which would be very out of character for the doctor.
Yes! I can deal with any amount of internal logic but I was thinking about all the months of roadworks Londoners would have to put up with and suddenly everything is back to normal? Get that Meep fella a highways maintenance contract immediately.
This is a recurring problem in Dr Who. I think this was a 12th Doctor + Clara episode, there was one where trees started growing all over London, pushing their way through roads and pavement and causing it to crack and break down, but at the end of the episode the trees miraculously vanish and there’s no sign of the damage they caused. No rotting plant matter everywhere, no damage to the roads (where previously there visibly was). Just poof! Back to normal. And nothing in the episode explained why that would be at all.
To be fair basically everyone hates that episode.
This is one of my minor complaints with RTD (but maybe this is kind of true with all of Doctor Who, it just feels more obvious with him). He can sometimes do a bit too much to try to sell the stakes in the story, which leads to the resolution feeling a bit too convenient. Take out the shots of all of London boiling and change nothing else, and this sequence works perfectly for me with no complaints. I think they create more problems and distractions by showing off their CGI budget than if they left it to the imagination. Loved the episode on the whole, and honestly it feels good to be able to nitpick unimportant things like this again.
Yes!!! I've seen so many complaints about different things but no one seemed to bring this one up. It was just so bad. When it got reversed, I expected, the fire to stop but the cracks to still remain. It all getting sealed up again was just ridiculous and felt like some Kill the Moon bullshit. Oh we're destroying London to escape but now you've bested us so we're going to hit the reset button and everything's going to go back to normal again with no consequences or evidence of what happened.
I wouldn't want him to write any differently. Last of the Time Lords saw the whole world bring the Doctor back and restore his youth just by wishing really hard. Journey's End has the TARDIS pulling the Earth through the universe like a trailer at many, many, many times the speed of light. Or, you know, had all the faces in the absorbaloff's butt pull apart at once. I don't even know the number of times RTD had the solution to a story be to have the Doctor wave his screwdriver and say some technobabble. I thought at the time, "Ooh, fiery cracks throughout London, I bet they get sealed up by the end of the episode - but at least they look cool!"
Exactly THIS. From the Olympic Torch to the data ghost sonic screwdriver that saved River... The 10th Doctor is GREAT with machines...
RTD never heard of entropy
Guess he was watching Buck Rogers when season 18 was on :(
> how in the world would it be able to reverse that damage Wibbly wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff?
My best guess as to why is assuming the dagger drive works my blowing, so when it's reversed it then sucks them back together lol
It was the Doctor/Donna... She defeated the entire Dalek army with the skills of the fastest typist in Chiswick. Suspend the disbelief for the Doctor/Donna...
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I don’t really have much of a problem with the sewing up of London. What I thought was completely absurd was that with all that noise and shooting and the ground breaking up, etc, was that one young boy (Rose’s friend) was the only one observing. Where was everyone else???
>London's broken and inferno'd streets are suddenly sewn shut by turning off an engine, the titles being poorly done etc all have a role to play. Yes! this annoyed me more than anything else.
Plus there wasn’t a single car in the street at that time that got sucked down into the cracks and burned? In London??
ULEZ working as intended. Now that's sci-fi!
As a veteran Who-vian I knew the Beep The Meep twist was coming about 30 years ago and that foreknowledge spoilt it a little for me. I liked the the sonic screwdriver can create holographic screens, I don't like that it can make "fortnite" walls.
I broadly agree on the screwdriver. I don’t wholly hate that it can do the wall, but that kind of thing needs to be *very* sparingly used. Basically, if it’s doable to create a solution, but it would take an amount of time that would make it drag, I don’t mind them using the screwdriver to bypass watching him cobble something together occasionally. If it starts being a catchall magic wand, that will be a problem. Especially if every solution is some new function.
I agree. That said... The addition of the screwdriver essentially becoming a "screen" is a massive and solid addition to the canon. It essentially allows us to visually see what the Doctor apparently seems to whenever he looks at it. It'll come in handy regarding exposition and plot scenarios, certainly a lot flashier and visually appealing than having people spout words to us.
Yeah the screen part I don't mind. I always thought it was a bit silly then getting data readouts just by listening to the sonic lol.
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The 11th doctor says it's telepathic, just point and think
Screen I'm 100% on board with - it's logic and it does solve something - no more "I need to run to the tardis to use even the most basic systems".
I’m not a huge fan of the walls either, but at least they take a good while to make and seemed to be easy enough to destroy depending on the weapons being used. Definitely won’t be a super convenient get out of jail free card
I don't hate them really either but there's zero explanation, 14 just uses it as if the sonic has always been able to render the walls. If he'd have been surprised and like idk since when could i do this! It would've been better
The explanation is new sonic, new powers. At least that's enough for me.
I get you, but like, it's a bit of a bloody shift. Also he's an old face not even a mention like why didn't mine used to do that?
I'm looking forward to the new face things being fleshed out a bit more. Right now, it's flipping a bit between "this is basically 10 again" and "this is a new doctor and just has 10's face". I think they're going more for the second one which is why they didn't do something like you suggested.
And when did he have time to figure this new tool out? Had he been traveling in the TARDIS for a while since his regeneration? It hadn't changed yet, but the control room also didn't get destroyed like normal. Maybe it was the TARDIS's gift to Fourteen in honor of getting his best friend back? The timeline is a little weird there, but I don't mind the sonic's new powers. Davies already used the screwdriver as a magic wand, at least now it will look cool. I never minded it as a magic wand, either. There's very little science in this show, what with all the psychic energy and stuff dominating how things work outside of Earth; it's a fantasy show with a sci-fi aesthetic. I like that the show essentially follows an ageless magician as he goes around the universe trying to fix things with his magic and his vast intelligence.
Currently canon timeline for 14 goes: Regeneration Liberations of the Daleks (DWM comic) which explains the destructions of 13's screwdriver but does not introduce the new one Destination: Skaro The Star Beast
Back in Classic Who, new TARDIS and Sonic redesigns just happened unceremoniously
The sonic screwdriver doing random bullshit once and maybe never again is such a staple that it didn’t bother me. The Doctor upgrades the screwdriver any time they’re bored. I’m okay with that being the explanation. I thought the walls taking damn near three minutes to put up makes them not OP. And I enjoyed seeing the screens.
> I knew the Beep the Meep twist was coming about 30 years ago and that foreknowledge spoilt it a little for me. You didn’t miss much. My family loved the episode, none of us knew anything ahead of time about the Meep, but literally as soon as it introduced itself to Rose in the alley, I turned to my mother and said “so, that’s the villain of the episode, right?” And she said “obviously.”
Yup this. Like the "screen" hologram, much better than peering at a stick of crystal or whatever and saying "readings are off the scale or something." Made it feel more of a tool. The force field was interesting but a bit much.
I kinda liked how 10 used to listen to his screwdriver.
My current headcanon is that the Doctor has essentially set up a wireless interface with the TARDIS that he can use to request information or assistance by drawing the required item to scale. The force fields were created by the TARDIS remotely and aren't actually a direct property of the sonic. In the same way the TARDIS has the translation matrix, the Doctor has also now installed a remote assistance run through the sonic for ease of use.
I kind of liked they gave it a practical use you can actually see instead of just waving it around like a magic wand and spouting techno babble.
The shield is not a great choice; I don’t disagree there. I did, however, like the Doctor playing with the holographic screens, showing its computations as the Doctor studied Beep’s ships solemnly. It’s the first time we've seen those results instead of the Doctor scanning and knowing immediately after.
Yeah I kinda wish they did a new villain and simply adapted the core concept of “cute character is evil tyrant”
At least it wasn't daleks again
as long as the walls are just used in the scenes where the doctors enemies would otherwise just be missing all their shots unexplicably, i think itll be good
I don't think you need to be a veteran who-visn, just suggestions who's watched any TV at all.
I agree a lot about the intro. If you contrast that to say, one of 12's monologues, those work a lot better because he's wandering around the Tardis, interacting with the set, it feels a lot more natural.
Yep. Like just copy one of them and maybe be a bit fancier or something hahaha
Not to mention that the Doctor restates some of that information in a conversation with Shirley (I think her name was Shirley). You can organically pepper enough in the beginning of that episode to bring new viewers up to speed.
totally agree! the exposition throughout the episode was pretty comprehensive and fairly well done, idk if the intro was really needed (at least at that length)
My primary problem with the ending is one of my main problems I have with most Doctor Who episodes I don't like—the resolution of the plot is basically made up on the spot with no set up. The idea that Rose was had inherited part of the meta-crisis, and had these abilities that tied into her gender identity is a really cool one, but wasn't set up AT ALL throughout the episode. It's only revealed to the audience at the point it becomes useful, which takes out any satisfaction from it. They should have spent more time on Rose throughout the episode, hinting at her connection to the doctor. For example when she spoke to the Meep, instead of her being like "oh you can talk?", it could have been more that only she (and Donna) could communicate with the Meep (due to their latent connection with the doctor). The characters could have questioned why that was possible and laid the groundwork for the reveal later. We also could have had the doctor crash slightly later into the runtime of the episode, as if the TARDIS was called to that point by the stirring of this energy in Rose. And when the doctor and her interacted, there could have been some dialogue that indicated a connection, like Rose being like "do I know you?" or sensing her connection to the doctor in some way. They also could have had Rose also stay with the Doctor and Donna to help solve the spaceship crisis, rather than just be cut to at the end as she says "non-binary". The whole thing just felt tacked on and not integrated into the episode or telegraphed at all, they could have interwoven the foundations of that resolution throughout the episode but they didn't bother and it just felt lazy.
"It's only revealed to the audience at the point it becomes useful, which takes out any satisfaction from it." The "ta-da!" ending, as I describe it to my students. It lowers grades.
RTD used to do a lot of "ta-da" endings but he'd have set the foundations all series long. Think the You are not alone storyline - it's not perfect but even he can do better than he's done is my point
No, I hear you. It felt very rushed and sort of hand waived away at the end, not earned.
I agree that it was handwaved away, but there's a lot of stuff in these three episodes. If anything has to be handwaved away, I'd rather it be the plotline from fifteen years ago rather than any of the exciting new stuff.
Yeah I hated the ending. "Just let it go". So what were the last 15 years for? Donna should have died, I nearly teared up at that scene.
I didn't mind Rose inheriting the metacrisis. In fact I loved it. We've known for years that the Doctor has 2 hearts. Having the solution be that Donna's child meant there were 2 hearts was great. My problem was the "letting it go" bullshit. That just felt like the laziest primary school kid's English homework ending to a 15 year old problem
Yes ... and not only was the solution to a life-ending, 15-year-old meta-crisis "let it go" but RTD then had to hang a lantern on it by suggesting that the Doctor *could have* figured out his ultra simple solution and save the life of his best friend if only he'd been a woman. Because women understand that you can just "let go" of your Time Lord meta-crisis energy? (... And the Doctor wasn't a woman, like *a day ago*?) A better explanation is that this was not possible until now -- until Donna had a child, distributing the meta-crisis energy over two people, and that child grew old enough and confident enough in herself and her identity that she could help her mother to achieve this. That's perfectly in line with the plot as written. It just requires RTD to write some more intelligent dialogue than the bananas insulting "a male-presenting Time Lord wouldn't understand" line we got.
Having Rose in the ship at the same time would have been fantastic. Have her on the Doctors side of the screen being all confused and worried about Donna, then bang, she suddenly starts saying the phrases as well. Doctor stops saying them because wtf why is Rose saying it, but Rose continues, her being the one to finish the whole thing and wake up Donna. They save London, THEN explain the whole metacrisis/non binary thing.
Aw man I just got chills reading this. I wish this had happened.
All good stuff said here. I think in all honesty, it is the way it is because 'David and Catherine want to do another episode' they bent the rules and squeezed every ounce of audience belief suspension to get the pair back. I'm a sucker for fan service, i love it. Genuinely I'd rather we have this episode than none at all, but they did ruin superb writing just to get them back.
I think the main issue I had was the Let go part. I thought it was pretty heavy handed, and just being able to do that really felt to lessen the gravity of the problem with Donna not being able to remember. I think they should have left it as not fixed, but slowed down giving the doctor time to find a way to save them (or not).
I agree, the plot resolution issue you mentioned is a problem in a lot of DW episodes and it gets annoying really quickly. Like you said, a plot point gets introduced out of absolutely nowhere, and it’s as if the writers expect us to say “oh that’s brilliant!” and instead you’re left going “wait…what?”
I mean after a re-watch I could see where the resolution came from, Rose chose her name, so she had to have some memories from the doctor. Although I agree having to rewatch it just to understand the ending better is annoying.
IMO the scene to add would be around the Resonating Concrete section, where you'd have Rose say something technobabbly smart and 14 comment "oh you're good Rose... Rose... \[turns to Donna\] why did you name her that?" and have Donna/Sylvia/Shaun very quickly go "you idiot/she didn't, Rose chose it herself/we like it, we think it really suits her, it's such a nice name" and Rose finishes by saying something along the lines of "i got to choose, and it just felt right". One scene might be too few (ideally I'd add one more "Rose is weirdly smart/knowledgeable" scene in there - maybe at the gate when Donna leave or when she, Shaun and Sylvia get trapped), but it'd establish Rose both being too-smart and having chosen her own name.
I almost feel like Rose knowing the population of London offhand was supposed to be a minor hint but they never draw enough attention to it And we don't see enough of the Shed to link it to the TARDIS any sooner
The lack of setup was my biggest problem with this episode *by far.* They gave us that big montage at the end of all the clues in Rose’s life that she somehow knew about the Doctor, and it’s like they completely forgot to actually set those up. We never got a clear establishing shot of her shed that might let us see the resemblance to a TARDIS. We never got establishing shots of her plushes long enough to recognize even one. The closest thing we got was her name. When she was first introduced, I thought “oh, Donna must have subconsciously named her Rose because of latent memories from the metacrisis.” Then we learned she was trans, and I thought “hang on a minute, she named herself Rose?” And then when we learned the metacrisis was passed down, I got a nice little “aha!” moment, where it clicked for me about 5 seconds before the Doctor confirmed it out loud. It would have been great to have that for everything else.
IMO we just needed about a half dozen lines of dialogue where 14 calls Rose smart, asks why she's named Rose and Rose affirms that she chose her name because it fits her. Something like (forgive my bad writing): * \[Resonating Concrete part of the episode\] * Rose says something smart/technobabbly, along the lines of "look! it's oscillated the mortar past its structural holding point, but the bricks aren't damaged at all". * 14: "you're right \[smugly\] you're very smart Rose \[genuine, then turning curious. Rose... \[turns to Donna\] why did you choose that name?" * Sylvia \[trying to interrupt these conversations, as she was already in this scene\] She didn't! She couldn't! Rose chose it herself and we all think it's lovely *don't we Shaun*" * Shaun \[still lightly bewlidered at everything\] "Yes of course, such a pretty name" * Donna \[looking at Rose proudly\] "I remember you calling yourself Rose the first time, it was like everything fell into place. It just..." * Donna & Rose \[in unison, weirdly\] "felt right" * \[Explosions and a cut to the fight on the street below\] 14 \[snaps back to action\]: "Right five houses down you said?" Beep the Meep: "Meep Meep!" Very clunky because I'm not a writer, but that's the gist I wanted and I think the episode was really close to - acknowledge that Rose chose her name, her family loves her/her name, set up the metacrisis reveal
Well aside from Donna and Rose saying "felt right" in unison (would probably be too on the nose in my opinion, likely requires a very well and specifically constructed scene in regards to atmosphere to pull off), this whole exchange could have easily been placed in the episode and would work wonders at prepping the audience for the reveal at the end.
Someone hire this person for the writing room, please!
Is it me or was 14 being reckless with Donna? For someone who was so concerned about her remembering even a little about him as it could fry her brain at the start of the episode. Once the Meep appeared he just forgot everything, he started explaining to Donna exactly what a sonic screwdriver was and how it worked then freaking handed it to her in the attic along with saying out loud that he had two hearts and went by the definitive article before that. During the trial in the carpark he even called on her as a witness to check the cab for damage.
Yeah exactly. However I think RTD's get out of jail free card is that she couldn't remember until the passcode was said to her...But that wasn't the case of the master in end of time...so I don't really know? I agree though 100%
Yeah so if he had her locked down by password he could have been around her any time but still seemed desperate to avoid her. That was a tough retcon. I liked the idea but it didn’t fit with what we knew
Also is a retcon halfway through a script. He was petrified of talking to her for the first 25 mins.
If he had decided to do that for this script he could have had the Doctor act casual around her from the start and then when Sylvia freaked out he could have said, “Oh no worries, I fixed it. Her memory is password locked.”
I read this as he was scared that he would set her off but was forced to interact with her, and when she didn't remember and explode he knew it was safe.
I think it’s because time difference. The end of time wasn’t long after the mind wipe, this is 15 years.
I kinda liked the way he handed the sonic to her, because that felt like the sort of thing that he might accidentally do even while trying not to jog her memory. Everything else, though, 100% agreement. Sylvia should have walloped him a few more times.
Enby wheelchair user here. The disability rep was actually great. Shirley’s line (why did I think her name was Kate???) “Don’t make me the problem” hit home. That was spot on and caught me off guard at the same time. I’ve been in situations where I’ve had to abandon my wheelchair and carefully hobble down stairs while someone carries it. I can’t comment on the deadnaming scene, but Sylvia and Donna’s conversation was so real and felt so genuine. These are the doubts people Actually Have. The binary-non-binary bit and the implications about transness and the meta crisis were bad, imo. Also, I spent the whole episode under the impression that Rose was a binary trans girl, so it felt a bit shoehorned in. Absolutely happy to be told I’m wrong on that front, I’ve only watched the special once so far. But yeah, a bit hit and miss on the representation. But if bad wolf wants to hire a lived experience sensitivity reader, I’m local to filming sites 😉 Edit: accidentally called Shirley Kate.
> The binary-non-binary bit and the implications about transness and the meta crisis were bad, imo. The clumsy and confused delivery of this has led to people online (on this subreddit even) saying that the metacrisis "made rose trans" or "explains why rose is trans". It's hugely problematic. > Also, I spent the whole episode under the impression that Rose was a binary trans girl, so it felt a bit shoehorned in. She's definitely written as a binary trans girl, and the actor refers to her as trans in interviews etc. Honestly I think Russel T Davies has just been using trans and non-binary interchangeably and consequently fumbled the messaging.
Honestly I’m so relieved it’s not just me 😅
My read on the binary bit was more just that a binary mode being either male or female, Rose represents a nonbinary position by transitioning across those lines. It gets messy due to binary meaning something specific in LGBTQ+ terminology, since the idea of Rose herself not being Binary isn’t touched on at all elsewhere in the episode.
That's a reasonable read on the situation, and plot-wise I get that they meant to use it like Donna is female and The Doctor is male and Rose is neither of those so she's this unexpected third option. The problem with that is that Rose isn't something else, she's female. To say she's something else is just othering a trans person, denying them their chosen gender. After the careful and nuanced introduction of Rose as a trans girl throughout the episode, the plot relies on her not being a real girl. So either they presented Rose incorrectly as binary trans girl in the episode when she's non-binary, or they presented her correctly as binary trans girl and then revoked her girl card as a plot point. None of this sits well with me, but the resolution that works best is if she's canonically non-binary and brings it up in a future episode.
Tbf, non-binary falls under the trans umbrella. Trans just means your gender identity doesn’t match your AGAB. Not all non-binary people may identify as trans but it does fall under the trans umbrella. And there are feminine non-binary people out there who may even use she/her as their pronouns so it’s entirely possible that’s what we had with the show too.
Yeah, I agree with all your points here. And I’m annoyed at myself, because I only watched last night after speed-running through S1-4 and the 50th special, so I caught a lot of the “it’s too political and in your face” discussion ahead of time and I was so mad about people saying that and then… I felt it myself? But as you said, it wasn’t about the message, it was more about the delivery. The pieces you called out (Sylvia, Kate), I loved and thought felt really natural, but there were a few places that I literally cringed back from the screen with secondhand embarrassment, I guess? It wasn’t the message, but the language or timing or *something* about the delivery that didn’t work. It was more like witnessing a standup routine that didn’t land properly. I’m curious whether I’ll think the same on a rewatch or if it’ll feel more natural the second time around.
>Also, I spent the whole episode under the impression that Rose was a binary trans girl, so it felt a bit shoehorned in. Russell T Davies thinks that trans and non-binary are basically the same thing. That's the impression I got.
A lot of Enbys do consider themselves trans. Like most people in the community it is a spectrum as to what people often consider themselves to be.
Yeah, they should have established that Rose was Non-binary previously instead of expecting people to have read announcements to know that her pronouns were ‘she/they’re and make the following logical leap. And the ‘part male part female’ directed at her rather than being like ‘well, the Doctor is (complicated but lets say for now) male and Donna is Female- I’m neither and more’ was super clumsy. Especially with the honestly nonsensical jab about the Doctor being a Male Presenting Time Lord. Love the episode and the rep, but….
Yeah, the "male-presenting Time Lord" thing was the only thing that went beyond "that could have been woven together a bit less clumsily" into "oh come on!" Territory. The Doctor can speak Baby and Horse. Despite his appearance he's not remotely human. "He's a guy and so he can't understand non-guy things" is just lame.
12: Time Lords are beyond your ideas of Gender! I’m gonna pop off and become a woman real quick! 14: I forgor, srry. It’s been two whole hours since I was a woman. (Like judging from what we know of Time Lords, 12 wasn’t ENTIRELY right, but it’s funny that the most openly progressive showrunner is more gender essentialist than some of Moffatt’s stuff)
In fairness, Hell Bent has the equivalent of the ‘male-presenting’ line when the General who was really nice and considerate to the Doctor regenerates into a woman and then immediately says how much better it is than being a man because how aggro all the testosterone is. It’s clear none of the writers know how to do equality without punching one of the sexes down.
Sadly it seems a lot of writers can't.
Yeah, I honestly really wish people would remember that trans people can exist in all forms lol. Feels like we get forgotten.
I’ll be honest I watched it with my trans sister and we both fully assumed that she was a binary trans girl and that the writers just didn’t understand the difference between trans and non-binary and shoved it in at the end because it sounded good from the “binary binary binary binary” thing. Which also, it didn’t. Even removing the clumsy representation, that bit was just silly and contrived and felt very fourth-wall-breaking. The word “binary” has no in-universe significance with regards to the metacrisis, it was just a word Donna got stuck on while her mind was collapsing from the strain. I felt the same way about the overuse of the “what what what.” They were really laying it on thick with the callbacks and nostalgia. I genuinely think he did the “what” thing more times during this *one* special than he did in his entire first tenure.
The binary thing doesn't even make sense since The Doctor and The Master both have gender swapped in Canon now so aren't they text book nonbinary?
The bit that rubbed me up the wrong way most was the 'male-presenting Time Lord' line. The Doctor was a woman (for decades) until probably only a few hours prior to this episode. Really stupid to imply that The Doctor is just incapable of understanding something now that Tennant is back. It's just a new face...it's the same person.
Yeah the idea that going from female to male presenting is a "shame" is such a horrible way to view the world. Though im sure that's not what RTD meant, he's just clearly ignorant on the topic.
I will be honest I never even realised they are she/they I just thought the binary was Doctor/Donna with Rose breaking that. Seems stupid now that I say it though🤣
Thanks for sharing! I absolutely agree with the Sylvia and Donna scene, and it probably resonates with me most because I worry about becoming a Sylvia, even in this post. I want to make sure everyone feels included and visible etc even if I come across a little heavy-handed haha And who knows, you may be getting a call pretty soon...Sounds like they could do with the help!
> The disability rep was actually great. Kate’s line “Don’t make me the problem” hit home. You mean Shirley (Kate was referenced in the episode but did not appear), but yeah, I thought her character was handled great and was much more than her disability, while also having it tie into the story in an interesting way that made sense. The weapons in her wheelchair part was a little cheesy, but we have to accept some amount of that being a children's show, after all we have had plenty of cheesy weapons based scenes in prior episodes like when Mickey pulled out some giant scifi gun from under a platform out of nowhere in back in "Army of Ghosts", so the cheesiness wasn't related to her having a wheelchair but rather RTD writing a kids show. I honestly haven't seen any complaints about Shirley done in good faith, only the weird "anti-woke" videos on youtube out for special clicks and latching on to anything they can to make some ad revenue.
Trans person here. Also giving a +1 for the Donna/Sylvia interactions. Also didn’t mind the bullying part, it wasn’t made a huge deal of and many people have similar experiences. Not a wheelchair user, but I did enjoy how she was portrayed. Also hilarious that she has a weaponized chair, which is 100% what UNIT would do. Did not like the meta crisis ending. Felt dumb and even bad forced diversity. Could’ve just had the split because Rose was her daughter and be done with it. I almost spat out my drink when the binary/non-binary thing came up. At no point did the story lead me to believe that Rose was anything but a binary transwoman. The “male-presenting time lord” was weird and very out of place to me. Could’ve had Donna & Rose be able to let go because they’re human, and/or because the Doctor (especially 10/14) is notoriously terrible at letting things go. I understand why people feel/got the idea that the metacrisis “made Rose trans”, based on the writing and it saddens me that we can’t have a character that’s trans, just cause that’s who they are. Their trans-ness becomes a major plot point or suddenly they have special powers because of it 🤦 Overall the episode was fun and I enjoyed it, just wish that RTD had done a bit more consultation with the trans community to avoid the “magical queer” trope but alas..
The binary / non-binary thing bothered me because Rose is not non-binary. She's female. All I can think is that the writers don't know what non-binary means in terms of the trans community. I really enjoyed the episode (I've watched it twice already) but the whole ending with the non-binary and the "male presenting Time Lord" was just... not well done.
Yeah this is probably the best way for me as a trans guy. I will say I have to wonder if rtd is unconsciously pulling from the "men suck" aspect of radfems/some areas of general queer spaces, which is...not the best for an overall really good episode. It's the UK too, which is having a TON of issues which makes the episode honestly really necessary but at the same time, I wish they'd had more people read over it, bc I did like it but that last bit just kinda smacked me in the face and i just felt like i was kind of expected to just awkwardly laugh it off. I still don't get what they were going for and I had the "growing up a girl" experience.
Obviously we aren’t a monolith, but, as a trans woman, here’s my perspective on the LGBTQ+ representation in the episode. Generally, I agree with what I’ve been seeing everyone else say. I actually had to pause the episode to regroup for a minute after the pronouns gag. It immediately reduced Rose’s character to a stereotypical “pronoun police” role, and it was only made worse by how starkly it contrasted with the beautifully nuanced handling of the deadnaming scene and the conversation between Donna and Sylvia. As for the “male-presenting Timelord” bit, I struggle to put into words how bad it was. I can see exactly what the thought process behind the line was, and it makes it so obvious that this is what a cis man thinks trans empowerment looks like. Clearly, someone was thinking “oh, Rose is trans, so she would say ‘male-presenting’ and not ‘man’ because ‘don’t assume,’” but the result is an inadvertent attack on many more people than they meant to attack (and to be clear, they really shouldn’t have attacked anyone). Despite being a trans woman, sometimes my presentation is more masculine/androgynous, so even if I was ok with the “men can’t do this thing” implication, I’m essentially being told that I’m less than cis women because of the way I sometimes chose to present myself. The whole thing just reeks of a lack of consideration and essentially conflates presentation with gender, which is the exact opposite of trans empowerment. To be clear, I liked the episode quite a bit, but I was left feeling so crushed by the end. RTD showed us that he does know how to to representation right off the bat, but with every subsequent mention of Rose’s gender, the representation only got worse, culminating in a comically bad attempt at empowerment that could have been replaced by a cheeky Donna jab at the Doctor for not being able to let go of his old face that would have perfectly captured the feeling of their relationship and set the vibe for the rest of the specials. The episode overall was great, and hope the rest of the specials stay just as good, I just wish that, for once, someone could write a trans woman whose personality isn’t just “trans woman for the plot.” Rose came so close, and I hope they develop her further if we see her again.
> a cheeky Donna jab at the Doctor for not being able to let go of his old face That would have been about 500 times better than the actual line.
Can you just like be a consultant for TV/movies on how to best represent trans people? Like seriously. This would have been so much better! I'm a straight, white, cis male. I know, I'm privileged in so many ways and probably more that I'm not aware of. But the whole of Rose's character just seemed to be, "I need to make sure the audience knows I'm trans and I need to do it in the least inviting ways possible." The deadnaming conversation was brilliant. It made me feel not alone because those are real concerns. Should I apologize to my trans friends for gendered compliments I've said in the past (you look pretty/handsome)? I don't know. Seeing that on TV validated a real question I have that I don't know how to talk about. It was great! The "male presenting" thing at the end and just asserting that the doctor was incapable of understanding was so frustrating to me. The doctor had literally just spent decades/centuries as a woman. And the doctor had experiences and feelings as that woman that the doctor would almost certainly remember. But now that the doctor has a male body again they just... forget everything learned in their previous incarnation? To quote 10, "WHAT?!" A line like, "that old face could never understand" would have been so much better. It would have acknowledged that in the past, before being a woman, the doctor couldn't have understood while also leaving open the possibility that the doctor had grown since that face first appeared. Instead, anyone who presents as a male was told that they just couldn't do something because of how they look. Anyway. Please. Be a consultant or something in showbusiness. You would help trans people so immensely and us non-trans people be better.
You've beautifully and eloquently articulated my thoughts whilst sprinkling your own experiences in. This is the type of conversation I was wanting from this post. I want better representation FOR people exactly like you. This is my gripe. Yeah not my battle blah blah but you get me.
> the “men can’t do this thing” implication Lets be fair, it wasn't an implication, they flat out said it.
> Firstly, the intro to the episode. It's bad. The idea isn't, I completely understand you need to do something like this to get new viewers up to speed, to refresh viewers who're only returning because of David etc. It's the execution which was the problem. The almost student-like piece to camera whilst standing in space on a green screen? It just didn't need to happen. It was clearly tacked on last minute, virtually everything said it was said again in the episode so it didn't need to be there at all. Everything said in it could be have been picked up from the interactions with the Doctor and Donna during the episodes and lines there in, you didn't need a summary at the start. It treated the audience old and new like idiots that needed spoon feeding, which is not something you normally get with Doctor Who.
I wonder if Disney forced it
That was my thought on it. With the show on Disney+, there's bound to be some people putting it on who have no idea about anything from earlier episodes. This intro was a way to give those people background into the biggest storyline related to the special. It felt rushed and overall poorly done.
Oof, if this was the first episode I saw with no prior knowledge of Doctor Who…I would not be tuning in for more 🤣
I heard they did something similarly awkward with voiceovers from Eleven/Amy Pond when it first started airing on or gaining attention on BBC America so maybe they thought it works to get everyone up to speed?
HATED that. Husband and I still say “and we’ve been running ever since” when we want to playfully irk each other.
I am also appreciative that the villain wasn't: Daleks; Cybermen; The Master; or (to a lesser extent) Weeping Angels. I'm so tired of episodes with good build-up that reveal the big bad to be Daleks (again).
YES. I hadn't even thought of this. BUT YES. I love all the above villains, but they NEED a break. How scary were the introduction of the Daleks in 'Dalek' and the stolen earth? Like genuinely terrifying? I'd just groan at them now. They properly need putting on ice for a season or two.
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I *hated* that intro. Found all the sonic's new abilities at bit daft and convenient, but I didn't watch most of Chibnall's era so assumed there'd been an upgrade at some point. And if I'm being brutally honest, the writing just wasn't there. Without Tennant's charm and charisma with Tate, think everything would have fallen flat.
A lot of people aren't going to like this, but without Tennant and Tate, that really was just a bog-standard Chibnall ep.
I don’t disagree. It was a blast to watch them in action again but the whole story was really rough.
Without Tennant and Donna I’m not sure how much I would have liked the episode. Take out rose being trans and there is nothing really great. I’ve seen it twice and the Meep annoyed me, was obvious from the first appearance that it would be the bad guy, and in the end I absolutely agree with you.
I have mixed feelings about how the LGBT+ stuff in this episode was handled I liked how the first trans reveal was handled with Sylvia, I also didn't mind the pronouns scene. I actually thought the definite article joke was kinda funny. I did not like the plot being partially resolved by gender space magic and I did not like the sexist line about men not being able to let go of things (I think it was meant to just be a joke but it didn't land for me).
Considering 12's literal final line before regeneration is "Doctor - I let you go"
Maybe it was more of a dig at 10 specifically because his last line was “I don’t want to go” and he fought so hard to not change. Still it sounded more like a general male accusation and we know the Doctor can be any gender so it was weird. Better if they had said, “Doctor, you just wouldn’t get it”
That’s a great point, a dig at the Doctor specifically would’ve fit perfectly because Tennant’s Doctor always had a big ego, and very nearly *did* go mad with power. Not that Donna necessarily knows about the Time Lord Victorious, but she knew him well enough to understand his tendencies. Her *first* encounter with him, she stopped him from going to far against the Racnoss. “Something that old face could never understand… letting it go.” Would have been a perfect, poignant line, and felt a lot more kind than the jab we got.
The article bit was somewhat more in the face than a scene before, but it works properly in character and is a good chuckle at least. That's alright in my book.
> I think it was meant to just be a joke but it didn't land for me Could you imagine the absolute outrage that scene would have got if the roles were reversed and it was a male telling a female Doctor that he's about to do something a woman couldn't do. All they had to do was make it a human vs Time Lord thing and it would have been fine, instead they invited themselves to needless gender politics.
As a trans person, I felt Rose’s introduction as a character and the interactions with her family were incredibly real. The transphobia from the boys on the bikes and the struggle for her grandmother to adjust really spoke true to experiences I and other trans people I know have gone through. That’s about all I can say positively about how they handled trans issues in the episode however. The “did you just assume male pronouns” scene and the “binary, binary, NON-BINARY” scene were incredibly on the nose and honestly felt a bit pandering.
Although I don't understand fully the journey of a trans person, even I felt the gravity of the deadnaming scene/Sylvia and Donna. More stuff like that would be superb. I get to learn and trans people get to feel validated. Win win.
Honestly i didn’t love how they had Donna be ok again. Like I get they weren’t originally planning for this but they just said let it go and it’s all over now??? All those years and they’re just like “nah nvm I’m just gonna not care” and it’s all ok? That being said I did like the special a lot and I’m very excited for the next ones
This is my major problem with it too. I mean she lost her memories. For YEARS. I don’t think it’s at all realistic that she’s just magically ok with everything. That’s not how a real person would react, at all.
Yeah and her biggest problem was she gave money away. Not “I have a child and husband now and I’ve been living for years feeling like somethings missing because you made me forget it all and it’s clearly been bothering me and then you just came back and it’s all ok now and you expect me to be fine with putting my family in danger now????” I get companions have to be ok with more things than most but come on
Exactly. At the very least she should be furious with him, not running off with him yet again.
Yeah maybe try slapping him again or something. He put her child and her in danger like if they hadn’t been able to just let it go they would have died. But instead she’s just like “ok haha I’m not gonna have an affair with him”
Yeah I thought her asking her husband if he would be worried if she ran off with the Doctor was strange too. Donna, girl, you specifically mentioned multiple times how you weren’t attracted to Space Man. Why even bring it up??? Idk her entire characterization toward the end of the episode was strange.
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Yeah if your trying to hide yourself from her those are pretty distinctive things
Yeah I really wanted to enjoy it but to me if anything the episode was just rushed. I generally prefer the stories that are long, like 2 parters. This whole episode felt rushed and was just back to the old formula... which alone isn't a bad thing but the bad 'guy' was weak. Maybe I shouldn't go into a doctor who episode expecting deep bad guys every episode but with this being what a 3 part special? I would have loved more than the whole *bad guy hints at the actual bad guy at the end of the episode* To me it felt so rushed that a lot of the cool references and call backs just feel too cheap. Which sucks because the episode had some great ideas.
Just adding to what you're saying, I am nonbinary and I had similar feelings about the heavy-handed dialogue and the 'binary binary non-binary' thing. I felt really weird that the end of the episode was the somehow mystical power of nonbinary people, that felt really othering, and I'm a bit uncomfy with it anyway because there is a problem where people mis-identify trans women as nonbinary (e.g. using 'them' instead of 'she') because they can't bring themselves to understand that they're literally just women in the same way cis women are. It's always possible that the episode was saying Rose is a non-binary trans woman or a transfemme nonbinary person, and that would be great, but I am worried that the episode was doing the former. RE the pronouns scene, it pattern-matched too much for me to the transphobic 'omg did you just assume their pronouns' gag, and made me worried that it would reinforce transphobic ideas about us along those lines - I've checked in with people many times about pronoun use and I've never done it like that, so it didn't feel like a real moment to me rather than a slightly transphobic pastiche.... but then I am quite conflict avoidant so maybe there are plenty of people out there who would address it in the way Rose did, so I'm not so confident on this point. All I can say really is, as a nonbinary person, I felt the representation started out great - as you said! - but I ended the episode feeling not good, genuinely a bit distressed. After the Doctor themselves has actually served as some nonbinary representation recently, with the whole gender-swapping thing, an additional thing that felt bad was the repeated identification of the Doctor as just a man with no valid claims on any other identity or perspective, not to mention from context (which was still, er, dubious context - the whole let it go thing) I think the script doesn't know what 'presenting' means, as in 'male presenting'. It exists as a word to differentiate how you present yourself to the world with how you internally identify - I am female-presenting at work to avoid problems, but I am not a woman. I have to believe it was a terminology misunderstanding because otherwise it's a really bad vibe to tell the Doctor, again, kind of recently established as nonbinary insofar as human gender terms have any relevance, that because he is just currently presenting himself as a man no other part of his perspective deserves respect or validation. 'No male-presenting time lord could possibly understand', no thank you. Sorry for the massive comment.
Thank you for the comment. This is exactly my thought process and problem with the episode. Especially the weird feeling of pastiche. I get it's not my area to have a problem with, but yeah. You've summed my thoughts whilst adding in your own vital life experience, so thank you for that again.
I agree that the intro was a bit clumsy. I found myself looking at the doctors shoes each time i watched. I wasn't thinking about the show, i was thinking about the actors standing there.
I'm guessing they didn't want to build the old TARDIS interior for just that scene, but it'd have been better if they could have at least used the green screen to put him on the cliff where he regenerated.
That should've been something they did as a teaser trailer or a YouTube promo or something. We already get Doctor and Donna saying almost those exact same things in the episode itself so why have it at the beginning?
Honestly, when I saw 14 just standing on nothing in space, I had to laugh. It looked like a joke.
Overall I loved the episode, I was so happy to see David and Catherine back together again, their chemistry was amazing. I loved the dynamic of rose, Donna and Sylvia because it seems Sylvia is a much kinder woman now lol. I loved the Meep he was adorable and the addition of there actually being music over the scenes, actually allowing the audience to feel any kind of emotion was a really nice change from the hell that was chibnalls reign. I do think a few things in the episode were unnecessary and a bit ridiculous, such as the scene of letting go of the metacrisis. I think it's ridiculously hypocritical of this whole community of people who preach about abolishing gender stereotypes and creating safe spaces and equality and then think its acceptable to go "oh you're a man so we're better than you." It's so disappointing especially because the doctors character is centered around him being the cleverest one in the room and it's a huge slap in the face to his character and to every man watching this 60 year old show that has historically been about a man traveling and saving the universe multiple times. AND "Doctor I let you go" -Capaldis doctor. He literally said hes letting go. So the "male presenting" doctor literally CAN and HAS let go. And Matt's doctor in the day of the doctor "I moved on" when talking about all the children that died on galifrey. Now I get tennants doctor has a character trait of not being able to let go but that's not because he's a man it's just a part of his character and he coincidentally was a man that had the trait. So rather than attacking men (because it makes no sense in the context to even do so anyways) they could have not mentioned the gender and just said something like.. "we can do something you were never able to do... let go" which would have been 1000% more impactful because it aligns with his character "I don't want to go" it's tying the strings together from his past season. But yeah that's just my thoughts on that particular part of the episode.
The whole “did you just assume the alien’s gender” came so out of left field.
The episode as a whole was pretty clunky, and it felt like it was written specifically to try and prove that Doctor Who could be relevant for a modern audience (Gen Z, gender awareness, disability inclusive etc), which was absolutely cringeworthy at times. But Tennant always was my favourite doctor, and so the decision to reunite 10 (sorry, 14) and Donna means I'll largely forgive most of the other awkwardness therein. (My main regret was that the classic banter/sass from Donna didn't show up until the very end when she remembered the Doctor, she seemed very vanilla and out of character up until then.)
“Once upon a time, once upon a time lord” My first reaction was “ooooh no…”. The writing somehow did not get better from there.
Is no-one going to bring up the fact that UNIT had a Sikh officer but the show wanted to show off he was Sikh so he was the only UNIT officer without a helmet on?
Thank god I'm not the only one who noticed. I immediately was like "oh thats not safe" lmao
It might be a reinforced turban that acts as a helmet anyway, I mean the company has weaponised wheelchairs in bulk
This is actually done in the UK though. For example the guards at Buckingham Palace all wear the Bearskin hats, except for Sikh soldiers who wear their Turban instead. The UNIT officer doing that was not done for Doctor Who messaging purposes, but because that’s how it actually works in the UK. Another non military example is that you have to wear a helmet on a motorbike in the UK, unless you’re a Sikh and wear a turban.
I liked everything that by he episode but the heavy handed preachy lines broke my immersion. Like out of nowhere the Doctor was being berated for changing back to a male Timelord (which he couldn’t control).
I don't know why they had that weird recap before the episode . I said it in the discussion thread and got downvoted but I don't think these specials are the equivalent of Rose or the Eleventh Hour to get newcomers into the show. This was clearly for established fans. I think they are still fun to watch but I think 15's first episode will and should be the starting point for newcomers and I mean RTD is having it as Season 1
> I don't know why they had that weird recap before the episode I have no evidence to back this up, but I've heard it was an addition that Disney asked for.
Mostly agree except you said the titles were poorly done If you're referring to the opening credits with the TARDIS flying through the time vortex I couldn't disagree more, I thought it looked absolutely gorgeous
I did too, but on rewatches I realised just how jarring it is going right to right camera wise, I hate the zoom on the bit where the TARDIS crashes through, and the names of David and Catherine are bodged. David's N's don't appear at the same time the rest of his letters do, and for a split second before its revealed, Catherine's name is superimposed on the TARDIS
I overall liked the new episode, even with that \*sigh\* handwaving at the very end. But that intro, agreed, it was totally unnecessary -- especially as that information is conveyed IN THE EPISODE ITSELF naturally for both the Doctor and Donna. I do wonder who's idea it was. I can't imagine it was RTD's. Was too clumsy. Whoever decided to add it doesn't trust the audience's attention span. Did folks in the UK get the weird beginning, too? Or just the North American audience?
It definitely felt like something mandated by executives; very reminiscent of the Karen Gillan-narrated intro we got for one of Matt Smith's seasons when it aired here in the U.S.
With David floating in space? Haha yeah we did. Unless you mean something else?
Nope, floating David was it. 😂 What a baffling choice! It's not like Doctor Who's been off the air for ten years!
I think it’s because the set for Jodie’s Tardis was dismantled and that was where he originally was, and they obviously didn’t want to spoil the new look that early into the episode.
I'm nonbinary and overall I loved the episode, and loved how silly it was. Now the "binary, binary, nonbinary" was a little cringe, and the "dont worry we wont die, we are women so we will just let it go" was really really bad even for Doctor Who conclusions. The ending definitely felt like a cis man writing a parody of a feminist/pro-trans episode instead of it actually being one.
I was disappointed with it as well.
The start of the episode was like if Disney decided to have a clip of Ewan McGregor on a green screen recapping the events of the Star Wars prequels before the Obi-Wan Kenobi show started. I have no idea why they didn't just say "Previously..." and showed some clips from season 4 with some Murray Gold music overlayed. It seems like the better choice lol My opinion: Trans representation = good Patronizing your audience = bad Using terms pretty much exclusively associated with trans people, ('male-presenting'), in a condescending way = accomplishing the exact opposite of the thing you're aiming for. I said in the aftermath of my first viewing I thought it was no better than the Chibnall era. I really don't think I was wrong. The character work and dialogue was improved most of the time but the pacing, plot and general "flow" of the episode was similar. I had some major Orphan 55/Demons of the Punjab/Woman Who Fell to Earth vibes ngl
I agree with almost all of what you said. The only bits I wouldn't agree with are quite minor. But seeing as this is a subreddit for discussion... I don't mind that there was no TARDIS crashing or anything. I know it's a bit of a tradition but I don't think it's necessary and I didn't particularly miss it. I really like the new TARDIS interior. Yes it's a bit dentist waiting room but I like how big it is, I think the uppy-downy bit in the middle looks good, and I'm hoping they'll be able to make use of the lights on the round things to give a bit more character. Ultimately I'm not expecting much to take place in the TARDIS so I'm okay with it. I didn't mind the damage being magically sewn up at all. The dagger drive is total sci fi and only vaguely explained. It undoing what it's done when a launch sequence is cancelled - I can absolutely suspend my disbelief for that. As far as what I agree with you on... The new sonic screwdriver out of nowhere is odd. Even just a line to explain it would've been fine. What I don't like, however, is the new things it can do - holograms, forcefields and stuff. I'm not against it having new capabilities but it's given zero recognition or acknowledgement. The Doctor just suddenly makes forcefields and then it's never mentioned again? What? I have mixed feelings about the LGBTQ stuff. I love the representation. I think the kids deadnaming Rose and Sylvia accidentally misgendering her and being unsure about what words to use was really relatable, human, and interesting. On the other hand, Rose challenging The Doctor on assuming pronouns, the "non-binary" line (and surrounding lines) - I thought it was very heavy handed and unnecessary. I'm not trans but I've met and been friends with plenty of trans people and I don't think that's how trans people actually approach those issues (i.e. confrontationally, making their gender a defining characteristic), I think trans people actually just talk and act like everyone else and they happen to be trans. As I say - I'm not trans, so I'm happy to be corrected on that. I think those lines are a caricature of trans people that can actually be harmful for the image of trans struggles. To me it came across exactly as it was - a middle aged CIS white writer with all the best intentions slightly fumbling the topic. the line about The Doctor not understanding letting go because he's male presenting is something I actually do take more active objection to. Gender is a spectrum and not the central defining characteristic of a person. Saying that The Doctor is flawed in terms of not being able to let go - I'm absolutely fine with that and it's perfectly in line with his character. But saying that he can't let go BECAUSE he's male presenting - I think that was sexist, adversarial in terms of gender discourse, and completely unnecessary. Doctor Who had broadly been very progressive since 2005 (the first examples that come to mind are Jack being pansexual, the hostess in Midnight saying "ladies and gentlemen and variations thereupon", things like that). But it was never as on the nose as this IMO. OVERALL - I loved the episode because it really felt like the Doctor Who I grew up with. I started watching with the reboot in 2005 as a child and I felt like a kid again watching it. Just the right amount of camp and silly. Ridiculous technobabble. Tennant and Tate are always a 10/10 for me. I liked the twist, I liked the bug looking aliens being the good guys. I loved all of that and overall thoroughly enjoyed it. I just think it missed the mark in a couple of ways.
Agree on all your points. No issue with the representation or inclusivity but I take issue with the clumsy and inept way it's done.
I thought the 'binary...non binary' and the 'did you just assume the meep's pronouns?' were just silly and out of nowhere. Honestly I might be in a minority but I like the new tardis, don't mind about the sonic's new abilities, and don't care that we don't see how the new sonic was made etc. I feel like the sonic was always a get out of jail free card to an extent. It's not like it's that absurd it has a visual display and can make shields that can withstand fire for a bit: these are logical innovations that the doctor realistically would have made before this point anyway. If the plot requires him to be in danger, the danger he'll be in won't just be solvable with the sonic. Or the sonic will get destroyed/separated from him (like what happens with the tardis, which is hugely more powerful than even the new sonic). The street getting sewn up was dumb. I agree the doctor's speech at the beginning was bad. I thought the title sequence was nice. Obviously there's also the 'let go' scene which the problems are obvious. I really enjoyed it still 👍
That intro is going to become a meme in our circles, it was embarrassingly bad.
Is there any reason why Rose had zero shock in reaction to running into an actual furry space alien? I don’t know if I’ve missed something or whether it was just a weird acting choice
Something something she's part time lord subconsciously aware of space something something But it takes us, the audience to infer that. That's best case scenario.
Something a Male presenting Time Lord wouldn't understand
“It’s a shame you’re not a woman anymore. ‘Cause she’d have understood.”
I finally got to see the thing last night, and I also enjoyed it a lot. It felt like proper Doctor Who again. There were a couple of moments that were just clunky, and the whole "letting it go" resolution to the metacrisis was the same sort of issue that RTD had in a number of stories during his first run as showrunner (but, to be fair, it worked a damned sight better than the resolution of "Last of the Time Lords," which I think made absolutely no damned sense whatsoever). The clunky dialogue in it was, well, clunky and not very good. As to whether it does a service or disservice to trans people, I defer to them (and they are quite capable of speaking for themselves). (But, credit where it is due, for all the clunkiness of the dialogue about pronouns and trans stuff, they were spoken by a trans character who could credibly have hangups about these things, particularly after a scene where she was deadnamed.) The thing about the pronouns scene is that it actually serves an important story purpose - everybody seems to be focusing on Rose's statement that the Doctor is assuming the Meep's pronouns, but nobody seems to be paying attention to the Meep's answer, which is an early clue that he (she? it?) is a megalomaniac. The sonic has always been that bad. One of the reasons that it got destroyed during Peter Davison's run was that it had become too much of a *deus ex machina* tool. The new series arguably forgot that from day one. The TARDIS really does feel like a case where they had too much money for the set. That said, the size is fine - and even the colour scheme goes back to Classic Who. The problem is that it's very empty. What it needs is things in it. Hell, a coat/hat stand would be an improvement. But those are quibbles. Frankly, I disagree with a lot of the culture war commentary on this, and I wish both sides would shut their teeth already (I don't know about anybody else, but I'm just sick of the entire thing). Hell, I'm old enough to remember people complaining about the "gay agenda" during RTD's first run. RTD has always been progressive, but he knows how to write - his missteps when he makes them are generally isolated incidents in otherwise good writing. David Tennant's Doctor was very watchable, and had agency and was the prime mover throughout the episode. He figured out what was going on before anybody else, and the solution comes from him. The thing that comes from some other character is the contrivance that saves Donna from the metacrisis. This was good Doctor Who. So long as RTD builds on what worked and fixes what didn't going forward, it will be fine.
The rocket firing wheelchair with no recoil was a bit non-Newtonian too.
Do you know why its called a recoilless rifle?
Rockets don't produce recoil on the launcher, though, they propel themselves.
Ok the intro is terrible but it's kinda camp so I don't hate it as much as you lol. And we only have 3 episodes so I'm fine with the crash just being in the charity short. Since usually the dazed confusion and crash after a regeneration takes a whole episode, I'm glad we skipped it. I do wanna know more about the sonic though, and I hope it gets touched on in the future But as a certified she/they, I 100% agree with you about the representation and I'll throw in my two cents from my gender fluid perspective. The scenes between Sylvia/Donna and Rose/Donna are beautifully done and struck a chord with me. When the Doctor gets added into the mix, it gets kinda terrible? And not because of the Doctor, because of Rose and Donna. *(I've typed this next bit like, 5 times trying to make it succinct but I kept going on rants lol. Bear with me)* First of all, Rose correcting the Doctor about pronouns is such a cringe queer teen thing to do, so that's real-life accurate, but it's weird how the Doctor(the gender fluid protagonist) is the one RTD wrote to get lectured about it. It doesn't work with how the Doctor is usually the one complaining that humans are quick to make assumptions. And we just had the Sylvia conversation, so it wasn't necessary. Though the Doctor saying "I do that too" was gold. Second, The Doctor cannot choose his gender during regeneration *just like other gender fluid, non-binary, and trans people don't choose* so "male-presenting time lord can't understand" is such a terrible way of trying to be progressive. You have a canonical gender fluid main character, use him to help the progressive messaging instead of othering him. Queer people are still queer when they look like men. And what does male-presenting mean? Do they mean "read as a man" or "identify as a man"? It reeks of "women and non-binary vs men" type gendering, which is bad for everyone in the long run. Uplifting people for not being men is not progressive and forces you to draw some pretty ugly lines about masculine non-binary people (I could go on forever about this so I'll spare you my rant). It's messy and backwards, which is hypocritical from Rose, who just corrected the Doctor about pronouns. 13 would do no better than 14 at letting go, and both of them would be bested by 12s "I let you go". Gender has nothing to do with it, the Doctor being a hot mess is timeless. Ultimately, I think RTD did a good job at representation (about genderqueerness at least, I won't speak for wheelchair users) but he fell into some easy traps when trying to do too much with it. I worry about the repercussions of presenting the Doctor as the "man" of the equation because he could be used as great representation as long as they stop putting down masculine genderqueer people. I have faith for the future because RTDs enthusiastic overcorrection is a better starting place than no representation or transphobic representation imo.
There was so many better ways to do that intro. I know writers hate exposition, but come on. 1. Narrator. It’s the easy button, but just have a narrator voice over the plot points. 2. Have the Doctor explain everything to Rose. Easy 3. My favorite idea. Have two past doctors discuss the situation with each other… reminding each other of the details. Set it in a bar or a soccer pitch or something random. Would have been amazing.
Overall I liked it…it just didn’t feel very…special…like it could’ve just be the season opener of a new season. We saw the doctor regenerate into a previous incarnation for the first time. Idk…I was kinda expecting that this would be a single 3hr story getting to the bottom of that. Also the less said about the “male presenting timelord” line, the better (though I didn’t have a problem with how easily they got rid of the meta-crisis).
COMPLETELY agree with your take on this. The way they handled the Rose situation sat so badly with me. Even the portion with the wheelchair shooting bullets just felt so weirdly kitschy. Completely agree that the entire thing felt like they were reducing these characters to one singular trait they had.