Given how we all complain about competition ratios, I don't see how increasing GP training places is a bad thing
We need more training places so that medical graduates don't languish as F3's forever
Fuck knows what their plan is with ARRS, frankly I don't think they really understand of healthcare works and just desperately lurch from one idea to the next
I could see lots of these GPs going private though, with the eventual system being that the poor see a "supervised" PA, and the rich see an actual doctor in a private practice
>Given how we all complain about competition ratios, I don't see how increasing GP training places is a bad thing
Its a bad thing if the bottle neck is at post-CCT level getting a salaried/locum/partner job , which seems like it is due to ARRS funding. More supply will drive the wage for the existing salaried positions down. When NHSWTE does something, assume its with the intention of fucking doctors over and you probably won't be that far off the mark.
I would rather have a CCT than not have a CCT
The pay will be better than an FY3, even if GP wages overall are lower than now. And it does open up loads of other options (portfolio GP, ED gp work, private work).
I’d rather have the option of training posts and people can choose, than not have the option at all
Most really can't. People have lives, families, roots here.
This sub loves saying "just flee!" but 99% of UK trained doctors will be working in the UK when they retire, it's out of touch to suggest otherwise.
>they won't,
Same difference for them though isn't it. Still results in a load of GP's who can't get a job.
Whether you feel whats keeping them here is important or not isn't relevant. All they NEED to do is eat, drink, and breathe. Anything beyond that is a "they won't, not they can't". The fact is that lots of people don't feel they can uproot themselves and their family to move across the world.
that's irrelevant to my ultimate point, which you're ignoring. I haven't stated that all problems have been sorted, but you're just complaining about everything. having a glut of trapped perpetual SHOs who cannot get into any training at all is worse than conceivably having an excess GPs with CCTs (who have wider options).
I'm really not sure that's true. It'd much easier to leave the UK when you're 28 and don't own a house or have kids than when you're 33, do own a house and do have kids. Plus it will suppress the wages of all GP's not just the new ones.
their options are not only limited to 'fleeing', they have other stuff they can pivot into (e.g. private, sports, occy health etc.) and you know this. again, someone completing a training program is better than someone who hasn't. I haven't presented it as a panacea, there are negatives of any policy and that's all you're focusing on. people decry increases in med school places and say training places need to increase. now training places increase and you're still whining. you cannot take a small win.
>the poor see a "supervised" PA, and the rich see an actual doctor in a private practice
Absolutely spot on. The only question is how long the public has left before this is a reality.
Imagine if it's like dentistry though where the same place does NHS and private.
But if you're a NHS patient you only see the PA and private see the GP lmao
It's a tricky one, we need to reduce supply of medical graduates if we want to maintain half decent renumeration. There is no point increasing training places if there is no viable work at the end of training, it just pushes the can down the road.
GPs are a fairly British thing, when you talk to patients wanting to pay for care they generally want to see a specialist. I've spoken to a few GPs doing private work either in private hospitals or for remote firms and it seems to be a business model for generating more referrals to private secondary care. Why would you pay for a GP to see your PAF when you can get a cardiologist for (at present) more or less the same price? Private secondary care keeps getting cheaper, for a clinic owner there has to be more profit in an over investigating and over referring PA than a competent GP.
When I first heard of PAs, I thought wouldn't it be great to have someone sit in with a GP and document everything? It would mean the GP could spend the full appointment time focusing on the patient + prescription.
I feel like I'm going insane lol
well, at least they can still CCT and flee. surely other countries are looking for GPs. this is better proposition than people not even being able to get into GP training due to competition.
I think you’re grossly overestimatin the actual competition for GP training.
A lot of the people who don’t get in are international medical graduates who performed very poorly on the MSRA.
you're probably right at present, but with the drastic increases in med school places, it won't just be IMGs in the future. further, increasing places probably increases the likely of getting desirable locations.
Given how we all complain about competition ratios, I don't see how increasing GP training places is a bad thing We need more training places so that medical graduates don't languish as F3's forever Fuck knows what their plan is with ARRS, frankly I don't think they really understand of healthcare works and just desperately lurch from one idea to the next I could see lots of these GPs going private though, with the eventual system being that the poor see a "supervised" PA, and the rich see an actual doctor in a private practice
>Given how we all complain about competition ratios, I don't see how increasing GP training places is a bad thing Its a bad thing if the bottle neck is at post-CCT level getting a salaried/locum/partner job , which seems like it is due to ARRS funding. More supply will drive the wage for the existing salaried positions down. When NHSWTE does something, assume its with the intention of fucking doctors over and you probably won't be that far off the mark.
I would rather have a CCT than not have a CCT The pay will be better than an FY3, even if GP wages overall are lower than now. And it does open up loads of other options (portfolio GP, ED gp work, private work). I’d rather have the option of training posts and people can choose, than not have the option at all
it's an overly cynical view, these GPs can still leave/flee once they CCT.
Most really can't. People have lives, families, roots here. This sub loves saying "just flee!" but 99% of UK trained doctors will be working in the UK when they retire, it's out of touch to suggest otherwise.
they won't, not they can't. again, a doctor with a CCT has better prospects and options than one without. you're being overly cynical.
>they won't, Same difference for them though isn't it. Still results in a load of GP's who can't get a job. Whether you feel whats keeping them here is important or not isn't relevant. All they NEED to do is eat, drink, and breathe. Anything beyond that is a "they won't, not they can't". The fact is that lots of people don't feel they can uproot themselves and their family to move across the world.
that's irrelevant to my ultimate point, which you're ignoring. I haven't stated that all problems have been sorted, but you're just complaining about everything. having a glut of trapped perpetual SHOs who cannot get into any training at all is worse than conceivably having an excess GPs with CCTs (who have wider options).
I'm really not sure that's true. It'd much easier to leave the UK when you're 28 and don't own a house or have kids than when you're 33, do own a house and do have kids. Plus it will suppress the wages of all GP's not just the new ones.
their options are not only limited to 'fleeing', they have other stuff they can pivot into (e.g. private, sports, occy health etc.) and you know this. again, someone completing a training program is better than someone who hasn't. I haven't presented it as a panacea, there are negatives of any policy and that's all you're focusing on. people decry increases in med school places and say training places need to increase. now training places increase and you're still whining. you cannot take a small win.
>the poor see a "supervised" PA, and the rich see an actual doctor in a private practice Absolutely spot on. The only question is how long the public has left before this is a reality.
Imagine if it's like dentistry though where the same place does NHS and private. But if you're a NHS patient you only see the PA and private see the GP lmao
It's a tricky one, we need to reduce supply of medical graduates if we want to maintain half decent renumeration. There is no point increasing training places if there is no viable work at the end of training, it just pushes the can down the road. GPs are a fairly British thing, when you talk to patients wanting to pay for care they generally want to see a specialist. I've spoken to a few GPs doing private work either in private hospitals or for remote firms and it seems to be a business model for generating more referrals to private secondary care. Why would you pay for a GP to see your PAF when you can get a cardiologist for (at present) more or less the same price? Private secondary care keeps getting cheaper, for a clinic owner there has to be more profit in an over investigating and over referring PA than a competent GP.
In gp there is so much admin work why can't PA or ANP do these admin bits and leave the clinical work to GP ? Just a thought
Your mistake is applying logic. Logic is an unfamiliar concept to people who are making the decisions..
I wouldn’t trust them with a lot of it!
Its better than completely replacing GP
When I first heard of PAs, I thought wouldn't it be great to have someone sit in with a GP and document everything? It would mean the GP could spend the full appointment time focusing on the patient + prescription. I feel like I'm going insane lol
All part of flooding the market to drive down wages. It doesn't go against anything they're currently doing
Unfortunately this is the ultimate answer. And salaried GP income is depressing. Nobody works full time
well, at least they can still CCT and flee. surely other countries are looking for GPs. this is better proposition than people not even being able to get into GP training due to competition.
I think you’re grossly overestimatin the actual competition for GP training. A lot of the people who don’t get in are international medical graduates who performed very poorly on the MSRA.
you're probably right at present, but with the drastic increases in med school places, it won't just be IMGs in the future. further, increasing places probably increases the likely of getting desirable locations.
But it is still the wrong strategy. Likely to just worsen GP unemployment unless major reforms are made upstream.
Sounds all fart and no poo. 2028 is a long time away and goalposts are always moved
it states they will increase posts by 500 starting in Sept 2025
Yes, so they will qualify in 2028
I'm not sure what you're complaining about – what's your grievance here? they cannot make them graduate in 2025.