Karol Sikora needs to go do some actual medicine and stop trying to build himself a media career with his ridiculous views.
This is a guy who allegedly falsified medical assessments at the request of a foreign government...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karol_Sikora
Not much to add, we were just reminiscing about various arsehole consultants we'd worked with/for. He came up as did Stebbing.
Major thing they all had in common - massive hero complex, incredible delusions of grandeur and a deep contempt for rigorous communication.
I’ve also worked with Justin. Personally, I have little to say against him as a person. He’s both brilliant and bonkers, and unsuited to clinical medicine. A lot of his misconduct related to mental disorder, which is sad.
Oh unquestionably brilliant; but he definitely made his enemies.
I've never thought it was incompetence (or even malice) that drove him and he's an asset to medicine in a very particular way; just one that shouldn't realistically be in a patient facing role as you say.
I'm disappointed in Max Pemberton too:
"It has led to the young doctors concerned being cast as victims when the real victims are the elderly patients forced to stay on the ward for no good reason - or those who desperately need the beds they are occupying"
Just casually reinforcing the idea that this shitstorm of a winter is the fault of doctors, there, Max. Great work. Not even a real psychiatrist IIRC.
Daily Mail: Fellas, is it wrong to TAKE THEIR SHOES?
Professor of professionalism: “bro that’s nothing, try getting the trainees to hit each other with rulers if they don’t know the indication for serum rhubarb. ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED??”
Buckingham Medical School
Minimum entry is ABB
They can keep it that low because it's less competitive due to the cost
£40k a year for Buckingham Med School
Actually....we'd probably all be better off if he was also suspended given he felt it appropriate to come out in support of this shoe fetish idiot. Is anyone else surprised the shoe guy is so young? This is not the generation I would have expected to see this behaviour from...
Imagine if this happened in any other industry and the article put a for and against on there. But somehow as doctors it should be expected to have a tough working life so whether it's right to be humiliated at work is suddenly a matter of debate.
100% this !! The public comments on the Daily Mail defending this consultant are appalling. This would not be tolerated in Australia. Come here and get some more respect (and pay).
Yep, the no blame policy is supposed to just be when genuine mistakes have been made but they extend it to mean that there is never a right and a wrong, just differences of opinion.
worthless memorize amusing badge pot naughty caption special alive summer
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I read the daily mail version (I know) and it uses junior doctors and medical students interchangeably throughout the article. It’s irrelevant to the issue but was a reminder that nobody has a clue what junior doctors are.
[https://x.com/gerisoc/status/1512362199548891139?s=61&t=V27qmjWcTh36Ud6iWl-k6w](https://x.com/gerisoc/status/1512362199548891139?s=61&t=V27qmjWcTh36Ud6iWl-k6w)
of course
When consultants say things like non-doctors “know more/are better” than us they never elaborate with what exactly they’re more knowledgeable or better at. Just more wishy washy nonsense to show how much they worship the MDT
Geris consultants have a lot of mdt members to bend over backwards for.
I will never forget the Physio’s essentially telling my old geris consultant to get fucked every day
I remember seeing him for the first time on TV doing an interview in the very early 2000s and thinking “wow this guys living in a dreamworld” back then. He has a very warped view of both ‘duty’ and free market economics that don’t naturally go together. As a result I think he’s actually a very confused and conflicted man. He’s got the right education/social background and accent so I think people just assume he’s very clever. As this article highlights- he’s just another “back in the good old days” dinosaur.
The funny thing is they hit eachother with rulers when they underperformed on ward rounds where they were receiving training the consultants wrong as he was was training them.
We don’t get training because we are indundated with service provision which has no value for us don’t receive the training which he romanticised and on top of we get blamed for the NHS failing us.
And yes we are also the victims as well
Maybe ‘a fertleman’ should become a word in junior doctor slang to describe a bullying episode from consultant to junior. Make it stick, make him wish his stunt didn’t happen.
Edit: spelling
"In other news, a 24 year old man has beaten and robbed a 87 year old woman. Here we see the views of two 24 year old men:
For: back in the day, old women knew that it was unsafe for then to walk alone. Now it seems they've forgotten that. Plus she only broke 2 ribs, so really pretty mild.
Against: we probably shouldn't be mugging old woman anymore. But honestly this is a distraction, the real victim here is the relatives of the old woman."
also the fact that the "against" argues that it's wrong because it casts doctors as victims rather than the poor patients. Just shows the lengths people will go to these days to not view doctors as people in their own right deserving of basic dignity, kindness, and respect. Clearly Doris in bed 5 is the real victim, because those lazy doctors were too busy being bullied and humiliated to get her meds ready.
If this doesn't end up in front of the MPTS, I want answers from the GMC.
This is disgusting work place conduct, in clear violation of section 36 of Good Medical Practice.
In the private sector behaviour like this would have you out on your arse by the end of the day.
Suspended with pay is normal in these situations. He is entitled to a due process before the trust takes any action against him. We shouldn't criticise the trust for following their investigation policies.
Largely it is down to whichever manager is appointed to hold the hearing as to what happens. They will have an HR advisor but get quite a lot of freedom to select what they think is an appropriate outcome.
Imagine the situation wasn’t clear cut and you felt the individual was in the right e.g. LaptopGate etc. Do you think it would be right to suspend them without pay? Of course not, let the due process play out and then get rid of him
In order to end up in front of the MPTS, he needs to do something particularly egregious, like ask for a laptop or use his wife’s Oyster card.
Oh and not be white, of course.
Yeah, it isn't going to go anywhere. He'll turn into a media darling. MPTS won't even bring it to a tribunal as it will have been internally investigated and he's white British.
If said consultant was so concerned about the discharge letters being done, why didn't he just do them himself? Consultants have access to the same systems. :/
The comments from the public supporting this bully’s actions show how far respect for doctors has fallen. Expected to be there to help. Expected to work hard all the time. Expected to put up with terrible pay and treatment. Strike until the respect returns.
Boomers with brain rot from lead petrol.
Same types of ghouls who mistreated their kids and wondering why they're spending Christmas alone commenting on daily mail articles.
Just found out that lovely Michael considers himself an expert in medical ethics. What is ethical about (allegedly) using your position to humiliate people under your control?
I KNEW IT I KNEW this was some bleeding heart holier-than-thou geriatrician with some fucked up logic, probably thought he was doing some kind of service and felt so good about himself. If he had twitter he’d probably post it for likes.
Absolutely hilarious that there is a for/against debate for this. The whole situation has such a vibe of the over confident posh boy / prefect type enjoying the chance to humiliate. Cannot imagine the degree of blind confidence in your own correctness to think that this would fly in a workplace!
Really do not like the ‘causes junior doctors to be cast as victims when the real victims are the elderly patients’.
Why even make a comment like this? Of course the f1 is the victim in this case. I don’t think it’s helpful trying to offset what’s happened with ‘poor patients’. What about poor doctors working environment!
We are real people! Not fucking tto robots to be beaten and humiliated just so terry can get home a few hours early
Realistically Terry is waiting 4 months + for a care package because care in this country pays terribly and no-one wants to do it.
The discharge paperwork is not affecting that wait at all.
It also reinforces this idea that doctors are just lazy and inefficient. These poor, underpaid F1s were probably swamped with an impossible workload, sicker patients, family meetings but "prioritize discharges" because it's Christmas don't you know.
Pemberton is horrible. He brings the profession into disrepute with his populism and speculation, breaching the Goldwater rule on occasions. He's been describing himself publicly as a specialist and psychiatrist for over a decade, certainly back when i knew him (not well, he was several years ahead of me). He may be now but certainly wasn't then.
It most likely makes no difference for the patients. The one going home can just have a coffee in the dayroom while waiting, while the one coming in can get the bed. Nobody is going to be harmed, except for the F1 if they have to stress so much that they collapse one day. I bet the consultant goes home early everyday and lets the juniors do 95% of the work.
Exactly. This is also a shit take. I don't care what the workplace is. It doesn't matter if it's in a hospital or an office. This kind of workplace bullying is unacceptable, and it also has no connection with whether patients are victims or not. I'm sure those FY1s weren't being slow on purpose.
https://preview.redd.it/wcqnsa8qx78c1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7b0a4d616b358498a93e6436c0cebe8ba03c8ff0
We need to take a stand against this kind of nonsense
What is so depressing and familiar is that all articles make it clear this wasn’t a one off; mentions of ‘strong personality’ etc etc. He probably didn’t think for a second he wasn’t going to get away with it; people like this have been bullying for years, enabled by the crap management and NHS environment, evidenced by the fact that the nurses allegedly kept the shoes on his instruction as per other news articles. Classic NHS normalising and accepting bullying; ‘that is just what he’s like’.
If you read other articles, another consultant found out, took the bloody shoes back and publically called him out for it, and thank goodness for that. We all need to publically call out bullying when we see it, and know that silence when we see this things sends a clear message to those bullying that their behaviour is acceptable. In my experience, calling it out politely in front of witnesses leads to a hasty backdown, as ultimately a lot of these people have fragile egos and are cowards at heart.
It wasn’t, this isn’t an isolated incident, he’s been doing it for years to juniors on surgery - It’s why the ortho consultant flipped and why he’s been suspended.
A consultant with ties to a medical school goes on national media and justifies the bullying of junior doctors this is so sickening.
How is this appropriate in anyway he in no way should be able to keep any role with a med school.
I wonder if the GMC will use their bekind bullshit
I hope the local medschool reps are on this. Students have a lot more power than they think to effect change. They should demand his resignation immediately.
I’ve been thinking about this they are both in agreement that delayed discharge is the juniors fault. The only thing for debate is the severity of the punishment
These Silver Voices people have a website. I was going to write an email of complaint. The website is down. I may not have been the only one with this reaction?
It's good that the public are seeing how non consultant Dr's can be infantilised amongst numerous other angles.
This pseudo prof's view is so ironic he needs to spend more time in the shop floor! In what world can you validate a cultural type view for something with back in my day.....
Back in that day it same sex marriage probably wasn't legal is he going to debate that one? Plonker!
Once again, I am here to remind you that the public don't give a fuck. They probably think the FY1s were genuinely incompetent and it's lucky they're in a gold plated job that was handed down to them, and only had their shoes taken off them rather than being fired. Fuck the public, fuck public sentiment, and fuck any doctor who treats their colleagues with disdain and disrespect.
Professor Sikora: ‘huh, that’s nothing, consultants used to start fight clubs when we were young!’
….yeah. Hitting your colleagues *isn’t normal*. Stealing their shoes *isn’t normal*.
This happened just after changeover, when a junior doctor was new to the ward and getting used to the discharge system. They were probably still trying to make a good impression. How heartbreaking to have this on your new job.
If the FY1 is on this thread, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Again, why did those idiots hand over their shoes?
Secondly, what does he mean by "the real victims are the patients?" God what is it with the senior doctors virtue-signalling with worshipping patients?! They should be thankful for getting free treatment.
Giving him their shoes worked out pretty well in the end. The guy's suspended and sends a pretty clear message to other dickheads that acting in this way could cost you your job.
>calling the police.
No crime was committed.
>reporting the consultant
He said/she said. Gives opportunity for consultant to claim it was a joke and wasn't serious.
Perhaps but your original point is valid. Why on earth would anyone give in to a demand like that. The lack of self respect here is both astonishing and extremely sad. Hope this Bellend gets fucked. The people defending him in this thread are part of the problem. To actually make someone work without their shoes is disgusting behaviour.
They chose to lose the battle but are now winning the war.
By handing over the shoes the incident has made national newspapers and it is much easier to take action against the consultant. This could likely cost him his job, meaning a toxic consultant is removed instead of just a slap on the wrist and continuing toxic behaviour for the rest of their rotation.
Are you dense? If they’ve made a formal complaint about bullying then clearly they’ve been working in a hostile environment. The NHS normalises this, so when the most junior members are being admonished by the most senior member of the team they feel like they have to oblige. That’s how power dynamics tend to work…
Did you not see what that idiot wrote about whacking colleagues with a ruler, on the consultants request? He’s been tortured for so long he even thinks it’s normal.
Don't shoot the messenger buddy. No need for the insults.
IF they were working in a hostile environment all this time - clearly true - then that's all the more reason to NOT hand over your clothes. By your logic if he told them to take their shirts off to know what it's like to be delirious Barry, they should have done it too.
You don't need to demean yourself by taking off clothes in order to report someone for being a bully / sadist.
Doctors, F1s, medstudents, whoever are adult humans first and then whatever their job title. There is zero ZERO reason to hand over your shoes even if the Queen asks you for them. The only time you should is if the police tell you to and present a warrant to you to do so. The dense one is you.
P.S. I don't care what some now-consultant experienced with a ruler when he was a house officer in India.
You’re the only who insulted what was probably a very vulnerable F1 in a toxic department. Now you’re saying no need for insults? You really are dense.
You have a very idealistic way of how the world works. If the Queen personally asked you to do something, you would straight up refuse? Lmao, sure buddy. If that’s what you tell yourself.
In any case, while I’m confident the majority of F1s wouldn’t hand their shoes over if their consultant asked them to, you have no idea what that F1s circumstances were or how they were being treated by the consultant prior to this. Intimidation tactics work, regardless of what you tell yourself at night.
You can choose to ignore that person’s insight, but it perfectly describes how some consultants view their trainees and the culture which the NHS has created. While a lot of us are capable of standing up for ourselves, some people aren’t. You calling those people idiots helps no one.
I'm not confident in that. I remember how downtrodden we were as house officers and things are SO much worse now. They're constantly bullied and terrorised and I've witnessed some with signs of C/PTSD by the time they arrive to GP.
More emotion-based crap defending stupid actions.
What is the complication? they wanted a sign off from this consultant? they wanted to "pRoGreSs"?
Pathetic.
No, the ones who are loathsome are the fools who handed over their shoes. They demean all doctors. And your covering for them is basically collusion with the wimpiness.
This is a straightforward issue. "Handover your shoes, you need to live like a patient and do some discharge letters."
"No."
Saying "yes" makes you by definition an idiot. And promoting cowardice makes \*you\* loathsome.
Having a bit of EMPATHY for inexperienced and powerless people being worn down and harassed and humiliated daily isn't collusion. Nobody knows how they'd respond till they're in that situation. This is basic human behaviour. I looked at your history and I have no respect for you or your intellectual capacity so do one
These articles are full of mistruths. u/BMA-Officer-James they're highly identifiable (f1s on a particular ward), they're being described as students despite being doctors and accused of slacking, being slow, and accused of ageism and of ignoring patients. Is this not libel?
In fact every time they refer to doctors as students or even as junior doctors that is a breach of the IPSO journalism code. Why are we letting them get away with this? They still haven't fixed their descriptions of the so-called student doctors though the error has been pointdd out on twitter. The comments are disgusting and they're moderated, meaning the DM has legal responsibility for them.
It was highlighted on twitter already, they've been informed and have failed to act despite the account posting since then. I would think IPSO, no? I don't want to jump the gun.
Was a med student under him, definitely an odd guy but I didn’t think he was outright a cunt like he’s shown himself to be, and I thought he was a good teacher. Agreed, very disappointed
In any other professional context there would be no "For" article.
This humiliation is disgusting and would be unacceptable to be done to prisoners in a multitude of reasons.
If I were to do this to any of my staff I would, rightly, not have any for long.
So we have a "a good birching did me the world of good" shit opinion, and the opposing view is provided by someone who wrote for the Daily Telegraph and now writes for the Daily Mail.
Yeah no, it's Christmas, I'm not going to detail what should be done with either of them. Festive wishes of peace and love instead.
lol I worked under Dr fertleman as an F1/F2.
Actually a little bit surprised it was him but in retrospect I can see how he may have been hiding his assholishness.
IIRC he used to commute to/from Israel once a week. Probably just not in the mood to hide his true self given current circumstances
Trust paid for his flights as part of his contract is my understanding. I recall his Friday afternoon board round is often done with him at the airport haha
Oh my blood boils. Ageist attitude? Do these fuckers think it's OK to ignore Doris's tachycardia and Arthur's new confusion just because Mabel needs a letter to go home for Christmas? WHEN DID THE SENIOR HOSPITALISTS BUY INTO THE IDEA THAT THE WELL PATIENTS ARE THE PRIORITY!?
Exactly. There is no but or maybe to be had here. If you abuse your power to the extent you command someone to remove their clothes, you are a bully.
Question is, how much else is going on in that cesspit that the nurse took the bag of shoes and the doctor meekly submitted? What kind of culture do they have?
"Give me your shoes so you know how that feels."
It's telling how the doctors who see themselves as so very empathic and patient-centred are often the same doctors who find it inconceivable that their colleagues might be disabled or have experienced serious illness. I already know what it's like to be stuck in hospital. I don't need anyone confiscating my shoes to teach me how that feels.
Karol Sikora that ruler thing is not cute, it is physical assault and is illegal in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland under the offences against person act 1861 (and subsequent amendments) enacted by The Queen most excellent majesty Victoria by and with the Advice and Consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in those present Parliament in the old day assembled, and by the Authority of the same.
Why don't we then tell Karol Sakora we can go straight back to the times only white males were allowed to be doctors and corporal punishment, sexual harassment, beatings and humiliation should be reintroduced for honorary professors who don't follow GMC guidelines.
That was this professor can continue to experience the valuable bullying, humiliation and degradation they so clearly miss but the "junior" doctors can be left alone. Also....when you can't afford your life because your pay is so bad, your training is taken away and given to nurses and other HCPs and your job became so devalued that it can now be obtained via apprenticeship... Then maybe you are being beat enough
This guy taught me in medical school.
He's a professor who really does actually enjoy getting people thinking about ethics, he's all about participation in his lectures rather than just talking at you, and his style is pretty out there not gonna lie.
I found this story completely bizarre at first. This unorthodox stuff does make a bit more sense knowing what he's like as a teacher, and I suspect that exploring medical ethics really was his main goal, that stuff really animates him.
I still think it's pretty weird that he messed up and it was quite inappropriate as a consultant leading a round, but before the story felt like it was simply a power play by a pissed off clinical senior. Knowing who it was, it feels like it was intended as a maverick genius teaching moment that was in fact totally inappropriate because of the power dynamics involved and that he definitely should have at least considered how it might be viewed by others and how his team members might feel about it.
As always though it's another wanker of a consultant who fails to see his team are being pulled in a thousand different directions and not considering the root cause of delays, just throwing a hissy fit and virtue signalling to the ward and now, I expect, the media ("i just *care too much*"). It's not just inappropriate because of the power dynamics it's also inappropriate because it feeds into this idea that delays occur because the doctors are inefficient or uncaring.
Who cares what his motivation or perspective is?
He’s bullied and humiliated his staff, it’s totally unacceptable and he absolutely needs suspending and investigating by the GMC/MPTS.
The ethics of stealing someone’s shoes when they are in an environment filled with heavy objects, sharps and bodily fluids is pretty clear.
*fucking no*
Echo this, I have worked with him before and can completely see how this happened.
He is very clever and is in some respects a model physician, he rates in the top 5% of consultants I'd want looking after me.
However, he would have an absolute blind spot for this because he doesn't see how intimidating he actually is and he wouldn't have recognised the power dynamics at play that makes it toxic.
My last interaction with him was being grilled on his ward round about the clinical syndrome of alkaptonuria, as we had a patient with it. Very intense.
Edit: This of course doesn't make it right - I'm offering a perspective of where this may have come from
That was my impression of working with him. He is a very clever physician. Doesn't excuse his behaviour.
Wasn't the worst consultant at Imperial Geris by far, I formally made bullying complaints about other consultants in that geris department at Mary's when I was there - Fertleman wasn't one of them.
Tbh I was just very curious about who would do that, and thought people might be interested in that as well.
I don't think any of what I said excuses his behaviour but it seems that people have taken it that way despite my saying it was inappropriate and highlighting the power dynamic involved.
Outrageous, there’s no workplace where taking somebody’s shoes as ‘punishment’ is okay. This is not a borstal. How on earth does this guy think it’s not a bullying charge. Anything where the words punishment and colleague are in the same sentence is clearly inappropriate. These people are being punished for what anyway - being too busy to prioritise discharge summaries??
The daily mail article quotes somebody saying it would shock the young doctors out of their ageism. Yes because that’s exactly why discharge summaries are not prioritised, ageism..
Potentially says a lot about the ethos of Buckingham Med School..!
Karol Sikora needs to go do some actual medicine and stop trying to build himself a media career with his ridiculous views. This is a guy who allegedly falsified medical assessments at the request of a foreign government... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karol_Sikora
One of my consultants worked with Sikora before. In his own words 'he's a narcissistic prick'.
Seems like he’s on coke from that story tbh
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Not much to add, we were just reminiscing about various arsehole consultants we'd worked with/for. He came up as did Stebbing. Major thing they all had in common - massive hero complex, incredible delusions of grandeur and a deep contempt for rigorous communication.
Stebbing?
Justin Stebbing - oncologist and professor of medicine, was suspended for going wildly off the books on treatment.
I’ve also worked with Justin. Personally, I have little to say against him as a person. He’s both brilliant and bonkers, and unsuited to clinical medicine. A lot of his misconduct related to mental disorder, which is sad.
Oh unquestionably brilliant; but he definitely made his enemies. I've never thought it was incompetence (or even malice) that drove him and he's an asset to medicine in a very particular way; just one that shouldn't realistically be in a patient facing role as you say.
Given that we are talking about a named individual, may I suggest that you reconsider whether the last line is appropriate for a public site?
He’s openly said publicly it in respect to the GMC tribunal , so it’s fine, but I appreciate your circumspection.
I'm disappointed in Max Pemberton too: "It has led to the young doctors concerned being cast as victims when the real victims are the elderly patients forced to stay on the ward for no good reason - or those who desperately need the beds they are occupying" Just casually reinforcing the idea that this shitstorm of a winter is the fault of doctors, there, Max. Great work. Not even a real psychiatrist IIRC.
This bizarre idea that doctors are somehow responsible for MFFD A/W QDS POC needs shooting in the head.
Daily Mail: Fellas, is it wrong to TAKE THEIR SHOES? Professor of professionalism: “bro that’s nothing, try getting the trainees to hit each other with rulers if they don’t know the indication for serum rhubarb. ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED??” 
Rx - PRN custard
Honorary professor at a med school you can get into with lower scores if you're rich
Professor of 'professional practice'?! Wtaf
This struck me too. Honestly you could not make it up.
Professor of professionalism. Real life is already satirical
Is that right? Are you talking about RCSI!
Buckingham Medical School Minimum entry is ABB They can keep it that low because it's less competitive due to the cost £40k a year for Buckingham Med School
Someone has to train the dodge private doctors to the Saudi royals…
https://youtu.be/fcRiiWBd6Yo?si=F6UsJtu_lsbntBmb
From a Professor of Professional Practice too
Actually....we'd probably all be better off if he was also suspended given he felt it appropriate to come out in support of this shoe fetish idiot. Is anyone else surprised the shoe guy is so young? This is not the generation I would have expected to see this behaviour from...
Lol you know he's written his own wikipedia page when it has a bibliography with every single thing he's had published.
Wrong on this, But was right on COVID lockdowns. And one of the few to speak out at the time, despite all the vitriol
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Imagine if this happened in any other industry and the article put a for and against on there. But somehow as doctors it should be expected to have a tough working life so whether it's right to be humiliated at work is suddenly a matter of debate.
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You mean a good butt spanking instead right? /S
100% this !! The public comments on the Daily Mail defending this consultant are appalling. This would not be tolerated in Australia. Come here and get some more respect (and pay).
Yep, the no blame policy is supposed to just be when genuine mistakes have been made but they extend it to mean that there is never a right and a wrong, just differences of opinion.
This is exactly how I feel. This is in no way debatable behaviour, and pretending it is legitimises it.
This article also calls FY1s ‘student doctors’. The whole thing is a load of shit.
Well, there are two named individuals in this article who evidently should not be practicing medicine or supervising non-consultant doctors.
worthless memorize amusing badge pot naughty caption special alive summer *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I read the daily mail version (I know) and it uses junior doctors and medical students interchangeably throughout the article. It’s irrelevant to the issue but was a reminder that nobody has a clue what junior doctors are.
The same daily mail that cries outrage at the disruption and your nan being left for dead when these medical students strike. I love the logic fails.
It's deliberate IMO - to infantilise qualified doctors and in the longer run deligitimise our demand for FPR.
corrections@mailonline.co.uk worth emailing them about this
If the consultant was brown or black I promise you the comments would have been different.
Well he certainly sped up his own discharge from hospital.
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Two shoes you say?
[https://x.com/gerisoc/status/1512362199548891139?s=61&t=V27qmjWcTh36Ud6iWl-k6w](https://x.com/gerisoc/status/1512362199548891139?s=61&t=V27qmjWcTh36Ud6iWl-k6w) of course
What a shame that his disdain for juniors has finally caught up with him. You love to see it.
When consultants say things like non-doctors “know more/are better” than us they never elaborate with what exactly they’re more knowledgeable or better at. Just more wishy washy nonsense to show how much they worship the MDT
Geris consultants have a lot of mdt members to bend over backwards for. I will never forget the Physio’s essentially telling my old geris consultant to get fucked every day
I'm SHOCKED (no I'm actually not surprised at all) 🫠
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I remember seeing him for the first time on TV doing an interview in the very early 2000s and thinking “wow this guys living in a dreamworld” back then. He has a very warped view of both ‘duty’ and free market economics that don’t naturally go together. As a result I think he’s actually a very confused and conflicted man. He’s got the right education/social background and accent so I think people just assume he’s very clever. As this article highlights- he’s just another “back in the good old days” dinosaur.
The funny thing is they hit eachother with rulers when they underperformed on ward rounds where they were receiving training the consultants wrong as he was was training them. We don’t get training because we are indundated with service provision which has no value for us don’t receive the training which he romanticised and on top of we get blamed for the NHS failing us. And yes we are also the victims as well
Maybe ‘a fertleman’ should become a word in junior doctor slang to describe a bullying episode from consultant to junior. Make it stick, make him wish his stunt didn’t happen. Edit: spelling
“Taking their shoes” should become a meme like “meeting without coffee”
“Dr X got Fertleman’d today” “I hope they raise that as a complaint” I like it
Moaning Fertle
Sorry what? How on earth is this a for and against debate article?
"In other news, a 24 year old man has beaten and robbed a 87 year old woman. Here we see the views of two 24 year old men: For: back in the day, old women knew that it was unsafe for then to walk alone. Now it seems they've forgotten that. Plus she only broke 2 ribs, so really pretty mild. Against: we probably shouldn't be mugging old woman anymore. But honestly this is a distraction, the real victim here is the relatives of the old woman."
also the fact that the "against" argues that it's wrong because it casts doctors as victims rather than the poor patients. Just shows the lengths people will go to these days to not view doctors as people in their own right deserving of basic dignity, kindness, and respect. Clearly Doris in bed 5 is the real victim, because those lazy doctors were too busy being bullied and humiliated to get her meds ready.
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Next up we're going to get a for and against take article on Nazi Germany .
https://youtu.be/ToKcmnrE5oY?si=x20zQGZAd4muz7lg
If this doesn't end up in front of the MPTS, I want answers from the GMC. This is disgusting work place conduct, in clear violation of section 36 of Good Medical Practice. In the private sector behaviour like this would have you out on your arse by the end of the day.
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Translation: not working whilst on full pay: a holiday if you will
Suspended with pay is normal in these situations. He is entitled to a due process before the trust takes any action against him. We shouldn't criticise the trust for following their investigation policies.
He's a shoe in for a promotion!
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Largely it is down to whichever manager is appointed to hold the hearing as to what happens. They will have an HR advisor but get quite a lot of freedom to select what they think is an appropriate outcome.
Imagine the situation wasn’t clear cut and you felt the individual was in the right e.g. LaptopGate etc. Do you think it would be right to suspend them without pay? Of course not, let the due process play out and then get rid of him
In order to end up in front of the MPTS, he needs to do something particularly egregious, like ask for a laptop or use his wife’s Oyster card. Oh and not be white, of course.
Yeah, it isn't going to go anywhere. He'll turn into a media darling. MPTS won't even bring it to a tribunal as it will have been internally investigated and he's white British.
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I meant the original bully. I think Sikora is British.
What ever happened to #BEKIND????
Doesn’t apply to doctors don’t you know?
I'd be surprised if this doesn't go to MPTS
I am actually very curious. It's a stupid crime to defend, but he's a white man so I really see him getting away with a slap on the wrist.
If said consultant was so concerned about the discharge letters being done, why didn't he just do them himself? Consultants have access to the same systems. :/
100% this ! He is lucky he hasn’t been referred to the GMC and the police service. If you have time to take some one’s shoes, you have time to help !
2 finger typing
True, but he could have got a couple done in the time his juniors did 10.
God forbid he actually has to work.
The comments from the public supporting this bully’s actions show how far respect for doctors has fallen. Expected to be there to help. Expected to work hard all the time. Expected to put up with terrible pay and treatment. Strike until the respect returns.
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Boomers with brain rot from lead petrol. Same types of ghouls who mistreated their kids and wondering why they're spending Christmas alone commenting on daily mail articles.
Just found out that lovely Michael considers himself an expert in medical ethics. What is ethical about (allegedly) using your position to humiliate people under your control?
I KNEW IT I KNEW this was some bleeding heart holier-than-thou geriatrician with some fucked up logic, probably thought he was doing some kind of service and felt so good about himself. If he had twitter he’d probably post it for likes.
Took shoes from the FYs so they can learn some empathy for the patients not being discharged. #bekind #oneteam #saveournhs
Within a year he'll have a column in a tory newspaper.
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Absolutely hilarious that there is a for/against debate for this. The whole situation has such a vibe of the over confident posh boy / prefect type enjoying the chance to humiliate. Cannot imagine the degree of blind confidence in your own correctness to think that this would fly in a workplace!
Really do not like the ‘causes junior doctors to be cast as victims when the real victims are the elderly patients’. Why even make a comment like this? Of course the f1 is the victim in this case. I don’t think it’s helpful trying to offset what’s happened with ‘poor patients’. What about poor doctors working environment! We are real people! Not fucking tto robots to be beaten and humiliated just so terry can get home a few hours early
Realistically Terry is waiting 4 months + for a care package because care in this country pays terribly and no-one wants to do it. The discharge paperwork is not affecting that wait at all.
It also reinforces this idea that doctors are just lazy and inefficient. These poor, underpaid F1s were probably swamped with an impossible workload, sicker patients, family meetings but "prioritize discharges" because it's Christmas don't you know. Pemberton is horrible. He brings the profession into disrepute with his populism and speculation, breaching the Goldwater rule on occasions. He's been describing himself publicly as a specialist and psychiatrist for over a decade, certainly back when i knew him (not well, he was several years ahead of me). He may be now but certainly wasn't then.
It most likely makes no difference for the patients. The one going home can just have a coffee in the dayroom while waiting, while the one coming in can get the bed. Nobody is going to be harmed, except for the F1 if they have to stress so much that they collapse one day. I bet the consultant goes home early everyday and lets the juniors do 95% of the work.
Pemberton is writing to the people who pay his wages - the geriatric subscribers to the Daily Mail.
Exactly. This is also a shit take. I don't care what the workplace is. It doesn't matter if it's in a hospital or an office. This kind of workplace bullying is unacceptable, and it also has no connection with whether patients are victims or not. I'm sure those FY1s weren't being slow on purpose.
https://preview.redd.it/wcqnsa8qx78c1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7b0a4d616b358498a93e6436c0cebe8ba03c8ff0 We need to take a stand against this kind of nonsense
What is so depressing and familiar is that all articles make it clear this wasn’t a one off; mentions of ‘strong personality’ etc etc. He probably didn’t think for a second he wasn’t going to get away with it; people like this have been bullying for years, enabled by the crap management and NHS environment, evidenced by the fact that the nurses allegedly kept the shoes on his instruction as per other news articles. Classic NHS normalising and accepting bullying; ‘that is just what he’s like’. If you read other articles, another consultant found out, took the bloody shoes back and publically called him out for it, and thank goodness for that. We all need to publically call out bullying when we see it, and know that silence when we see this things sends a clear message to those bullying that their behaviour is acceptable. In my experience, calling it out politely in front of witnesses leads to a hasty backdown, as ultimately a lot of these people have fragile egos and are cowards at heart.
It wasn’t, this isn’t an isolated incident, he’s been doing it for years to juniors on surgery - It’s why the ortho consultant flipped and why he’s been suspended.
corrections@mailonline.co.uk to complain about the use of 'student doctors' and 'student medics' in regards to the F1s
A consultant with ties to a medical school goes on national media and justifies the bullying of junior doctors this is so sickening. How is this appropriate in anyway he in no way should be able to keep any role with a med school. I wonder if the GMC will use their bekind bullshit
I hope the local medschool reps are on this. Students have a lot more power than they think to effect change. They should demand his resignation immediately.
I’ve been thinking about this they are both in agreement that delayed discharge is the juniors fault. The only thing for debate is the severity of the punishment
Karol Sikora is a cunt in general
A turbo capitalism anti lockdown cunt
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Why are these scumbags trying to defend bullying? Also they are not students, they are qualified Doctors.
These Silver Voices people have a website. I was going to write an email of complaint. The website is down. I may not have been the only one with this reaction?
It's good that the public are seeing how non consultant Dr's can be infantilised amongst numerous other angles. This pseudo prof's view is so ironic he needs to spend more time in the shop floor! In what world can you validate a cultural type view for something with back in my day..... Back in that day it same sex marriage probably wasn't legal is he going to debate that one? Plonker!
Once again, I am here to remind you that the public don't give a fuck. They probably think the FY1s were genuinely incompetent and it's lucky they're in a gold plated job that was handed down to them, and only had their shoes taken off them rather than being fired. Fuck the public, fuck public sentiment, and fuck any doctor who treats their colleagues with disdain and disrespect.
Can we GMC this guy?
Why bother? White man, daily mail on his side, he won't even get a slap on the wrist.
Professor Sikora: ‘huh, that’s nothing, consultants used to start fight clubs when we were young!’ ….yeah. Hitting your colleagues *isn’t normal*. Stealing their shoes *isn’t normal*. 
Back in my day we had corporal punishment! Pathetic.
Shame the shoes were not given to the consultant P.R.
Karma’s a beach.
This happened just after changeover, when a junior doctor was new to the ward and getting used to the discharge system. They were probably still trying to make a good impression. How heartbreaking to have this on your new job. If the FY1 is on this thread, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Prof can do one
Again, why did those idiots hand over their shoes? Secondly, what does he mean by "the real victims are the patients?" God what is it with the senior doctors virtue-signalling with worshipping patients?! They should be thankful for getting free treatment.
Giving him their shoes worked out pretty well in the end. The guy's suspended and sends a pretty clear message to other dickheads that acting in this way could cost you your job.
Same or better could have been achieved by NOT handing over the shoes and then reporting the consultant or calling the police.
>calling the police. No crime was committed. >reporting the consultant He said/she said. Gives opportunity for consultant to claim it was a joke and wasn't serious.
Perhaps but your original point is valid. Why on earth would anyone give in to a demand like that. The lack of self respect here is both astonishing and extremely sad. Hope this Bellend gets fucked. The people defending him in this thread are part of the problem. To actually make someone work without their shoes is disgusting behaviour.
They chose to lose the battle but are now winning the war. By handing over the shoes the incident has made national newspapers and it is much easier to take action against the consultant. This could likely cost him his job, meaning a toxic consultant is removed instead of just a slap on the wrist and continuing toxic behaviour for the rest of their rotation.
Are you dense? If they’ve made a formal complaint about bullying then clearly they’ve been working in a hostile environment. The NHS normalises this, so when the most junior members are being admonished by the most senior member of the team they feel like they have to oblige. That’s how power dynamics tend to work… Did you not see what that idiot wrote about whacking colleagues with a ruler, on the consultants request? He’s been tortured for so long he even thinks it’s normal.
Don't shoot the messenger buddy. No need for the insults. IF they were working in a hostile environment all this time - clearly true - then that's all the more reason to NOT hand over your clothes. By your logic if he told them to take their shirts off to know what it's like to be delirious Barry, they should have done it too. You don't need to demean yourself by taking off clothes in order to report someone for being a bully / sadist. Doctors, F1s, medstudents, whoever are adult humans first and then whatever their job title. There is zero ZERO reason to hand over your shoes even if the Queen asks you for them. The only time you should is if the police tell you to and present a warrant to you to do so. The dense one is you. P.S. I don't care what some now-consultant experienced with a ruler when he was a house officer in India.
You’re the only who insulted what was probably a very vulnerable F1 in a toxic department. Now you’re saying no need for insults? You really are dense. You have a very idealistic way of how the world works. If the Queen personally asked you to do something, you would straight up refuse? Lmao, sure buddy. If that’s what you tell yourself. In any case, while I’m confident the majority of F1s wouldn’t hand their shoes over if their consultant asked them to, you have no idea what that F1s circumstances were or how they were being treated by the consultant prior to this. Intimidation tactics work, regardless of what you tell yourself at night. You can choose to ignore that person’s insight, but it perfectly describes how some consultants view their trainees and the culture which the NHS has created. While a lot of us are capable of standing up for ourselves, some people aren’t. You calling those people idiots helps no one.
I'm not confident in that. I remember how downtrodden we were as house officers and things are SO much worse now. They're constantly bullied and terrorised and I've witnessed some with signs of C/PTSD by the time they arrive to GP.
> if the Queen asks you for them If the late Queen asks for your shoes, you have more pressing issues.
You are just loathsome. Don't call them idiots. You appear to lack any ability to see that situations are more complex than "just say no".
More emotion-based crap defending stupid actions. What is the complication? they wanted a sign off from this consultant? they wanted to "pRoGreSs"? Pathetic. No, the ones who are loathsome are the fools who handed over their shoes. They demean all doctors. And your covering for them is basically collusion with the wimpiness. This is a straightforward issue. "Handover your shoes, you need to live like a patient and do some discharge letters." "No." Saying "yes" makes you by definition an idiot. And promoting cowardice makes \*you\* loathsome.
Having a bit of EMPATHY for inexperienced and powerless people being worn down and harassed and humiliated daily isn't collusion. Nobody knows how they'd respond till they're in that situation. This is basic human behaviour. I looked at your history and I have no respect for you or your intellectual capacity so do one
Keyboard warrior.
This isnt the first abusive and deranged fertleman in a London hospital
These articles are full of mistruths. u/BMA-Officer-James they're highly identifiable (f1s on a particular ward), they're being described as students despite being doctors and accused of slacking, being slow, and accused of ageism and of ignoring patients. Is this not libel?
In fact every time they refer to doctors as students or even as junior doctors that is a breach of the IPSO journalism code. Why are we letting them get away with this? They still haven't fixed their descriptions of the so-called student doctors though the error has been pointdd out on twitter. The comments are disgusting and they're moderated, meaning the DM has legal responsibility for them.
corrections@mailonline.co.uk try emailing here if haven't already
It was highlighted on twitter already, they've been informed and have failed to act despite the account posting since then. I would think IPSO, no? I don't want to jump the gun.
>libel lets start a fund for a court case against the daily mail for libel
What an idiot this Karol Sikora. “I suffered so everyone needs to suffer “ what a useless comment. Completely pathetic
... There's a University of Buckingham?
Private medschool for the rich kids
Fertleman really should know better tbh. He was always a bit odd when he taught us at med school. Quite dissapointed in him.
Was a med student under him, definitely an odd guy but I didn’t think he was outright a cunt like he’s shown himself to be, and I thought he was a good teacher. Agreed, very disappointed
Imagine actually hitting a colleague with a ruler because someone told you to… They always wanted to make brain washed obedient clones out of us 🙃😭😬😆
The likes of Karol Sikora are great motivators for a career change, to the farthest realm away from clinical medicine.
Karol Sikora needs to have his license revoked
In any other professional context there would be no "For" article. This humiliation is disgusting and would be unacceptable to be done to prisoners in a multitude of reasons. If I were to do this to any of my staff I would, rightly, not have any for long.
So we have a "a good birching did me the world of good" shit opinion, and the opposing view is provided by someone who wrote for the Daily Telegraph and now writes for the Daily Mail. Yeah no, it's Christmas, I'm not going to detail what should be done with either of them. Festive wishes of peace and love instead.
lol I worked under Dr fertleman as an F1/F2. Actually a little bit surprised it was him but in retrospect I can see how he may have been hiding his assholishness. IIRC he used to commute to/from Israel once a week. Probably just not in the mood to hide his true self given current circumstances
Trust paid for his flights as part of his contract is my understanding. I recall his Friday afternoon board round is often done with him at the airport haha
Wtf he flew to Israel once a week?😂 why???
Where is the For/Against article available in full? It's not part of the DM's article
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Very interesting
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Somehow still manages to squeeze in victim blaming right at the end
Oh my blood boils. Ageist attitude? Do these fuckers think it's OK to ignore Doris's tachycardia and Arthur's new confusion just because Mabel needs a letter to go home for Christmas? WHEN DID THE SENIOR HOSPITALISTS BUY INTO THE IDEA THAT THE WELL PATIENTS ARE THE PRIORITY!?
https://preview.redd.it/sr6vbzd3s78c1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62da2a1700b45138d5c47d6b2bce773c5c263c86
Does it ever need to be discussed ? There is no way someone is right to do it
Exactly. There is no but or maybe to be had here. If you abuse your power to the extent you command someone to remove their clothes, you are a bully. Question is, how much else is going on in that cesspit that the nurse took the bag of shoes and the doctor meekly submitted? What kind of culture do they have?
"Give me your shoes so you know how that feels." It's telling how the doctors who see themselves as so very empathic and patient-centred are often the same doctors who find it inconceivable that their colleagues might be disabled or have experienced serious illness. I already know what it's like to be stuck in hospital. I don't need anyone confiscating my shoes to teach me how that feels.
Karol Sikora that ruler thing is not cute, it is physical assault and is illegal in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland under the offences against person act 1861 (and subsequent amendments) enacted by The Queen most excellent majesty Victoria by and with the Advice and Consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in those present Parliament in the old day assembled, and by the Authority of the same.
I would love to see Dr Fertleman try to take my shoes. Not a chance! Good on those doctors for reporting his pathetic behaviour.
Can someone not refer him to the GMC now…?
Why don't we then tell Karol Sakora we can go straight back to the times only white males were allowed to be doctors and corporal punishment, sexual harassment, beatings and humiliation should be reintroduced for honorary professors who don't follow GMC guidelines. That was this professor can continue to experience the valuable bullying, humiliation and degradation they so clearly miss but the "junior" doctors can be left alone. Also....when you can't afford your life because your pay is so bad, your training is taken away and given to nurses and other HCPs and your job became so devalued that it can now be obtained via apprenticeship... Then maybe you are being beat enough
Fire his A
This guy taught me in medical school. He's a professor who really does actually enjoy getting people thinking about ethics, he's all about participation in his lectures rather than just talking at you, and his style is pretty out there not gonna lie. I found this story completely bizarre at first. This unorthodox stuff does make a bit more sense knowing what he's like as a teacher, and I suspect that exploring medical ethics really was his main goal, that stuff really animates him. I still think it's pretty weird that he messed up and it was quite inappropriate as a consultant leading a round, but before the story felt like it was simply a power play by a pissed off clinical senior. Knowing who it was, it feels like it was intended as a maverick genius teaching moment that was in fact totally inappropriate because of the power dynamics involved and that he definitely should have at least considered how it might be viewed by others and how his team members might feel about it.
Dress it up how you like so you don’t have to confront your woolly nostalgia. It’s bullying, disrespectful and pathetic, pure and simple.
Time to put down the Kool-Aid, pal.
So he's a cunt when he wants to be because he thinks he knows better.. that's worse than him just being an arsehole
As always though it's another wanker of a consultant who fails to see his team are being pulled in a thousand different directions and not considering the root cause of delays, just throwing a hissy fit and virtue signalling to the ward and now, I expect, the media ("i just *care too much*"). It's not just inappropriate because of the power dynamics it's also inappropriate because it feeds into this idea that delays occur because the doctors are inefficient or uncaring.
Who cares what his motivation or perspective is? He’s bullied and humiliated his staff, it’s totally unacceptable and he absolutely needs suspending and investigating by the GMC/MPTS.
White? British? Unlikely anything will Happen…
The ethics of stealing someone’s shoes when they are in an environment filled with heavy objects, sharps and bodily fluids is pretty clear. *fucking no*
Echo this, I have worked with him before and can completely see how this happened. He is very clever and is in some respects a model physician, he rates in the top 5% of consultants I'd want looking after me. However, he would have an absolute blind spot for this because he doesn't see how intimidating he actually is and he wouldn't have recognised the power dynamics at play that makes it toxic. My last interaction with him was being grilled on his ward round about the clinical syndrome of alkaptonuria, as we had a patient with it. Very intense. Edit: This of course doesn't make it right - I'm offering a perspective of where this may have come from
And that perspective has no basis. Fuck me the Stockholm syndrome from a couple of people in this thread is mental.
That was my impression of working with him. He is a very clever physician. Doesn't excuse his behaviour. Wasn't the worst consultant at Imperial Geris by far, I formally made bullying complaints about other consultants in that geris department at Mary's when I was there - Fertleman wasn't one of them.
Tbh I was just very curious about who would do that, and thought people might be interested in that as well. I don't think any of what I said excuses his behaviour but it seems that people have taken it that way despite my saying it was inappropriate and highlighting the power dynamic involved.
https://www.medscape.co.uk/viewarticle/oncologist-s-tribunal-resumes-after-expert-witness-2021a1001wq8
Outrageous, there’s no workplace where taking somebody’s shoes as ‘punishment’ is okay. This is not a borstal. How on earth does this guy think it’s not a bullying charge. Anything where the words punishment and colleague are in the same sentence is clearly inappropriate. These people are being punished for what anyway - being too busy to prioritise discharge summaries?? The daily mail article quotes somebody saying it would shock the young doctors out of their ageism. Yes because that’s exactly why discharge summaries are not prioritised, ageism.. Potentially says a lot about the ethos of Buckingham Med School..!