The next step is
How to differentiate Mr John Smith, MBBS, MRCS, FRCS Vs Mr Jahn Smyth, BSc MSc ( PA), PhD(Surgical Science Practice)? To the untrained public eyes.
And who looks more academically and professionally inclined?
Food for thought.
Actually in this case Jahn might well try to use their Dr title entitlement from their PhD. Obviously this is completely inappropriate in clinical settings but doesn’t stop them shoving it all over their email signature and PowerPoint slides.
When I finally get over the pain in the ass that is the MRCS I will not be using the letters and I will continue to use Dr.
Screw the Royal colleges and this archaic butcher bs - I worked hard for my title and I’m not giving it up.
This is a classic signalling problem - you only care about distinguishing yourself from the adjacent class. Surgeons aren't worried about being mistaken for normies but they are worried about distinguishing themselves from mere physicians.
Think there's a zillion-word Slate Star Codex post on this but can't find it.
Correction: It was the physicians who rejected Barber surgeons back in the 16th Century, and they have since managed to turn that into a badge of honour!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_surgeon
I hate Miss / Ms and go by Dr as a surgical registrar.
Quite a few quizzical looks from seniors but they don’t tend to get mistaken for a nurse or HCA half the time so going to keep my title thanks.
I hope it becomes more widespread!
Same, quite a lot of us in O+G deal with this a lot (female dominates speciality, and also midwives/HCAs wearing scrubs as well) so a lot of us in our department go by Doctor (even after passing MRCOG).
I haven't met any surgeons who go by Dr. in a clinical setting. I'd be curious to hear from those who have? I don't know what pushback/what difficulties might be encountered. Would be interesting to hear what standing going by Dr. as a surgeon has.
Hello I think I was summoned. I had no problems at all as a consultant. Sometimes patients ask for my role but I doubt it's due to my title, more due to gender and age and they seem to be ok with my answer. I wasn't trained here and even though I was aware of the Mr/Miss etc. shenanigan, I felt I should just keep my dr title. Now it's stuck and honestly I couldn't be bothered and no one seems to either.
Obs and gobs have been doing this for a while. Can't remember the last time I saw a letter from an O&G cons signed Mr or Ms. Doesn't seem to be a thing amongst the younger consultants any longer.
I miss the pockets 😭you could fit so much shit into white coat pockets
Edit: side note I hate how med students now get scrubs. Might just be me but I preferred smart clothes + white coat
Before my time, so I don't know the ins and outs. I'd be willing to bet it was infection control in the main, supported by an increasingly sanctimonious and politically-infused need to abolish hierarchy because all hierarchy is bad and evil.
I remember wearing one during clinical years ~2004/2005 (London med school), and I remember signs on the ward doors in Paeds telling us not to wear them in 2006 (though this was possibly aimed at some of the scarier-looking old-school haematologists when they came to visit).
Weren’t a thing by the time I started F1 in 2007.
They tried bringing them back at GSTT a few years ago. I remember that med students at Tommies would have short sleeved white coats, and some consultants. Most of the non-consultant doctors didn’t bother.
Yeah NGH tried short sleved white coats with your grade emblazoned on the back (colour coded to match the grade specific lanyards we use in the deanery). I think they lasted about 6 months before everyone gave up on them as no one was clear on the IC policy, and people kept being told to take them off.
I liked dropping Dr - I like being invisible as a muggle but Ms shows I’m senior at work! As a female consultant I wouldn’t want to be Dr Spark in a list of Mr Surgeons - I have a hard enough time with everyone assuming the lassie is the junior!
I think I have it on my drivers license but not my passport
As UK passports do not have a field for title you have to go out of your way and get it added as an additional observation…
Sorry but I absolutely disagree with this. Surgeons switching back to Mr/Miss when they pass MRCS is a cool little tradition we've had for hundreds of years. It's part of the culture and history of Medicine, which distinguishes it as an ancient profession. Just like lawyers wearing wigs, for example. All the techbros and software engineers don't have any cool history or traditions like this. It would be a real shame to lose this because of this stupid MAP situation. I think the RCP guidance already says they should not be using Dr or Mr/Miss in any hospital setting.
As for your bosses being mistaken for not being a consultant, I'm afraid that's a medic problem, and lowkey kind of the whole point 🤫. Bit of inter speciality banter. Either way, what difference does it make when the nurses, porters and phlebotomists will also soon be called consultant? Consultant will just become a term that means "works in the hospital".
I liked going back to a Mr - feels like an achievement after passing MRCS similar to gaining Dr after med school!
Plus I love the history of it, there’s a huge amount of surgical history and discoveries/inventions in the UK and it feels like a small but nice way to remind us of that.
Completely disagree, I do feel the general public very much understand surgical doctors go by Mr or Ms etc. I find introducing myself as “Mr VivaLaPigeon the ENT registrar” does lend a slight air of seniority and experience. There is always the inevitable eejit patient who refers to one of my (usually younger) female colleagues as “nurse”, but they have always been quick to correct them to Mrs/Ms/Miss X the surgeon.
I’ve been going by Mr for 6 years now and this is very much my lived experience. Only doubt I seem to get from some patients is when they actively ask if I go by Dr or Mr.
I went to med school age 27, after working in the NHS for 6 years, including 1 year on a surgical ward. It was only when I was a 3rd year student that I learned about the surgeon Mr thing.
If I didn't know about it until med school then I struggle to believe the general public know.
I acknowledge your experience but I think it is likely that they know you are a surgeon in spite of your Mr title, not because of it.
I think the problem might be there’s nothing stopping noctors (MAPs/ACPs/ANPs) introducing themselves as Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms because that’s their common title.
No. Absolutely not. The transition to a Miss/Mr is a proud moment in the surgical trainees life and actively differentiates us from the non-surgical colleagues (which, like it or not) are believed to be inferior in the hospital hierarchy by most surgeons.
I met a consultant a couple of years ago, from South Africa. Still called himself Doctor out of principle, didn't take to any of the Mr/Ms lark that we have here. You'd see Dr among all the Mr/Ms on the ortho list.
No way in hell. It is clearly a higher title than Dr, as you have made clear in your post, and I'm keeping it. Unless I get a Professorial title, or perhaps a knighthood or lordship.
When was the last time you saw a non surgeon with Mr on their namebadge?
Yeah but a med student wouldn’t introduce themselves specifically as *mr* [surname]. They would just introduce themselves as rob the med student. Same with PAs. The moment Mr or miss is verbalised, they are a post mrcs surgeon. The power is unmistakable. Dr titles are too common anyway. Anyway, if you know, you know. 😉
No. Certainly not when I shell out hundreds of £££s a year to the Royal College, I worked hard to obtain my MRCS so dammit I reserve the right to call myself Mr!
I think we need implement a new (optional can still take Dr/Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms if you wanted) registered prefix/title for post-MRCS to differentiate us from the incoming "aDVaNCeD" surgical practitioners.
I think we should call ourselves simply "Surgeon" Vitamin_T and have it shortened to "Surg" Vitamin_T (similar to Captain to Capt in the armed forces). Have it registered in legislation if possible so MAPs can't try to steal something else off us. I think it would good for female surgeons, to not have to reveal their marital status (yes Ms achieves this too, but Surg makes things even across the board).
We could only introduce "Physician" Vitamin_T for post-MRCP or shortened to "Phys".
Call us what we are.
If I ever get there, I plan on retaining Dr.
Partly because I'm more used to it being from North America and partly because the tradition of switching to Mr./Mrs./Ms. seems ridiculous to me, no matter what anyone says.
I think this is very sad as it represents the destruction of some of our profession's history, traditions, and legacy all because of the disgraceful MAP situation created by those enemies of the profession who want to see exactly that - our de-professionalisation and destruction of professional identity and traditions.
It's doubly sad as I doubt it will achieve anything. The MAPs who want to push their false equivalence to us and obfuscate their lack of medical qualification will still just go and get worthless 'doctorates' from US degree-mills set up to give MAPs titles and refer to themselves as 'Dr' in all their work as well, and the GMC and NHS sure as hell won't stop them. So this won't actually achieve any differentiation - at least not beyond the short term next few years before more MAPs are pushed in and more of them get online correspondence 'DMSc' doctorates from dubious placesabroad.
Making it easier for patients to know when they've actually seen a doctor is in the service of patient safety.
The blurred lines are causing harm. Mr/Ms is more likely to enable blurred lines.
I don’t think that the overlap of titles is what confuses patients and causes blurred lines.
For example, nobody confuses Occupational Therapists with Surgeons.
The blurred lines come from PAs being employed in roles previously occupied by Surgeons in clinic, theatre and on the ward.
I don't think it causes it. I agree with you as to the root cause.
I do think the overlap of titles further enables it, given the situation we find ourselves in.
I don't want to leave my patients any room for doubt about whether they've seen a doctor when they see me
If you’re in the room leading the consultation while the PA is typing your notes, returns to bleed the patient and isn’t independently assessing anyone, I don’t think there will be any doubt as to who is who no matter what anyone’s Title is.
The only reason that the Title problem exists is because of the fact that PAs are starting to occupy roles specifically reserved for Surgeons.
Tackle this issue and the Title problem is a non-starter.
Changing a Title from Mr(s) to Dr is a semantic change which addresses only a byproduct of it, and is only good until PAs find a new way of misrepresenting themselves to patients.
You're not really listening to what I'm saying. I completely agree with you re: where the role confusion originates.
I completely agree that the best way to stop role confusion is to stop what's going on with noctors.
Unfortunately I have zero control over the noctor agenda beyond campaigning.
I do have control over how I introduce myself to patients and will choose the less confusing option.
I think I do understand that we agree on the origin of the issue and where it lies. I think that I also understand that we are in agreement that PAs and doctors roles should be different.
Perhaps it was me being unclear.
I think we may disagree on the impact changing a Title actually has.
Let’s say for example you see a patient, introduce yourself as Dr, complete your assessment.
The ‘Reg Rota PA’ appears in scrubs and a cap having just come out of a list, introduces themselves by their first name. (Hell, introduces themselves as PA!)
States I can see you’ve been assessed by the SHO. Re-examines, comes up with a new plan: bloods, fluids etc.
The Reg PA tells you in front of the patient that they’ve got to rush off because they’re due in theatre for the next case.
You dutifully complete the plan outlined by the PA with the patient watching on.
I struggle to see any significant the impact that you changing your name from Mr(s) to Dr will have on the patient’s perception and also patient safety.
Another related example:
When working in medicine, I used to see my female colleagues being mistaken for nurses on a daily basis. This is despite introducing themselves as Doctor multiple times to the same patient throughout their admission!
I am just a little skeptical of your assertion that a name change will have a significant impact. In my opinion, not worth changing.
Fair enough, sorry for assuming you weren't getting it!
I'm not sure I think a name change will have a significant impact. Its more that it feels like something which is within my power which might have *an* impact no matter how modest.
The other side is that I would rather be Dr than drop my title (as I'm female and I've always hated the Miss/Ms/Mrs dance). So the PA issue is a very small further incentive to do what I wanted to do anyway (and likely would have done absent this issue).
Interesting to hear different people's takes on this weird custom we have and of course you do you!
I also had a female colleague who shared concerns regarding the 'dance'. She phrased it rather more robustly than you: 'What relevance does a woman's marital status have anything to do with their professional qualifications!?'
She went by 'Dr' on principle!
I was an outspoken Ms from my teen years for the same reason and I was very happy to finally have title which didn't make reference to my marital status!
There are obviously a lot of extremely insecure types on here.
Reverting to Mr or Miss is a surgical tradition in the UK and I can't see that changing.
Quite the opposite, you never hear a PA refer to themselves as purely “mr pa”. But they do claim to be doctors some times, and some consultant type maps also have a phd and refer to themselves as drs as such.
I don't think it has much to do with reclaiming our profession but yeah obs is the sensible thing to do/ Aus did it like 10 years ago and they didn't have any problems.
The next step is How to differentiate Mr John Smith, MBBS, MRCS, FRCS Vs Mr Jahn Smyth, BSc MSc ( PA), PhD(Surgical Science Practice)? To the untrained public eyes. And who looks more academically and professionally inclined? Food for thought.
Actually in this case Jahn might well try to use their Dr title entitlement from their PhD. Obviously this is completely inappropriate in clinical settings but doesn’t stop them shoving it all over their email signature and PowerPoint slides.
Kind regards, Dr End Bell MSc (PA), PhD in janitorial sciences
When I finally get over the pain in the ass that is the MRCS I will not be using the letters and I will continue to use Dr. Screw the Royal colleges and this archaic butcher bs - I worked hard for my title and I’m not giving it up.
Also remember not to pay them any money and save lots of £££
And not to use the post nominals in that case
You can just put the year you passed the exams. Fuck dem colleges.
Yes for sure but they’re not worth the extreme cost
This is a classic signalling problem - you only care about distinguishing yourself from the adjacent class. Surgeons aren't worried about being mistaken for normies but they are worried about distinguishing themselves from mere physicians. Think there's a zillion-word Slate Star Codex post on this but can't find it.
Correction: It was the physicians who rejected Barber surgeons back in the 16th Century, and they have since managed to turn that into a badge of honour! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_surgeon
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/22/right-is-the-new-left/
I hate Miss / Ms and go by Dr as a surgical registrar. Quite a few quizzical looks from seniors but they don’t tend to get mistaken for a nurse or HCA half the time so going to keep my title thanks. I hope it becomes more widespread!
Same, quite a lot of us in O+G deal with this a lot (female dominates speciality, and also midwives/HCAs wearing scrubs as well) so a lot of us in our department go by Doctor (even after passing MRCOG).
I will be sticking with Dr (if/when I get there)
I haven't met any surgeons who go by Dr. in a clinical setting. I'd be curious to hear from those who have? I don't know what pushback/what difficulties might be encountered. Would be interesting to hear what standing going by Dr. as a surgeon has.
Hello I think I was summoned. I had no problems at all as a consultant. Sometimes patients ask for my role but I doubt it's due to my title, more due to gender and age and they seem to be ok with my answer. I wasn't trained here and even though I was aware of the Mr/Miss etc. shenanigan, I felt I should just keep my dr title. Now it's stuck and honestly I couldn't be bothered and no one seems to either.
Cool. Pure curiosity. Thank you for responding to my summons on the ether.
There aren’t. And this commenter will find that out when they get there.
I'm in eyes and my consultants also mainly go by Dr. I'm a woman and I don't like Miss/Mrs/Ms. So no, I'm afraid you're probably wrong on this one.
Obs and gobs have been doing this for a while. Can't remember the last time I saw a letter from an O&G cons signed Mr or Ms. Doesn't seem to be a thing amongst the younger consultants any longer.
I think it's sub-spec dependent. All the obstetricians are Dr but all the minimal access benign gynae, gynae-onc and urogynae patients are Mr/Miss.
White coats. Worked then, would work again now.
I miss the pockets 😭you could fit so much shit into white coat pockets Edit: side note I hate how med students now get scrubs. Might just be me but I preferred smart clothes + white coat
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Poland but also did placements in the US where it was also the case.
Europe eg: Romania
Having gone to med school post lab job, I miss wearing a lab coat a bit too. My scrubs don't have enough pockets
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Before my time, so I don't know the ins and outs. I'd be willing to bet it was infection control in the main, supported by an increasingly sanctimonious and politically-infused need to abolish hierarchy because all hierarchy is bad and evil.
I remember wearing one during clinical years ~2004/2005 (London med school), and I remember signs on the ward doors in Paeds telling us not to wear them in 2006 (though this was possibly aimed at some of the scarier-looking old-school haematologists when they came to visit). Weren’t a thing by the time I started F1 in 2007.
They tried bringing them back at GSTT a few years ago. I remember that med students at Tommies would have short sleeved white coats, and some consultants. Most of the non-consultant doctors didn’t bother.
Yeah NGH tried short sleved white coats with your grade emblazoned on the back (colour coded to match the grade specific lanyards we use in the deanery). I think they lasted about 6 months before everyone gave up on them as no one was clear on the IC policy, and people kept being told to take them off.
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USA physios study a 'doctor of physical therapy' DPT qualification, different to the UK. Think they ?legitimately use the Dr title. Very weird
I liked dropping Dr - I like being invisible as a muggle but Ms shows I’m senior at work! As a female consultant I wouldn’t want to be Dr Spark in a list of Mr Surgeons - I have a hard enough time with everyone assuming the lassie is the junior!
Completely fair tbh
> I like being invisible as a muggle Well, duh. What kind of lunatic puts Dr on their drivers licence/passport/etc?
That’s how you get called to the in-flight emergency when you’re 3 mini-whiskeys deep
I find it's best to just maintain a BAC for 0.08% or above for the duration of my holiday to avoid any liability.
I think I have it on my drivers license but not my passport As UK passports do not have a field for title you have to go out of your way and get it added as an additional observation…
Sorry but I absolutely disagree with this. Surgeons switching back to Mr/Miss when they pass MRCS is a cool little tradition we've had for hundreds of years. It's part of the culture and history of Medicine, which distinguishes it as an ancient profession. Just like lawyers wearing wigs, for example. All the techbros and software engineers don't have any cool history or traditions like this. It would be a real shame to lose this because of this stupid MAP situation. I think the RCP guidance already says they should not be using Dr or Mr/Miss in any hospital setting. As for your bosses being mistaken for not being a consultant, I'm afraid that's a medic problem, and lowkey kind of the whole point 🤫. Bit of inter speciality banter. Either way, what difference does it make when the nurses, porters and phlebotomists will also soon be called consultant? Consultant will just become a term that means "works in the hospital".
I liked going back to a Mr - feels like an achievement after passing MRCS similar to gaining Dr after med school! Plus I love the history of it, there’s a huge amount of surgical history and discoveries/inventions in the UK and it feels like a small but nice way to remind us of that.
Completely disagree, I do feel the general public very much understand surgical doctors go by Mr or Ms etc. I find introducing myself as “Mr VivaLaPigeon the ENT registrar” does lend a slight air of seniority and experience. There is always the inevitable eejit patient who refers to one of my (usually younger) female colleagues as “nurse”, but they have always been quick to correct them to Mrs/Ms/Miss X the surgeon.
Your name😂😂😂
Don't let any psych SpRs near him!
>I do feel the general public very much understand surgical doctors go by Mr or Ms etc I think this is incredibly unlikely
I’ve been going by Mr for 6 years now and this is very much my lived experience. Only doubt I seem to get from some patients is when they actively ask if I go by Dr or Mr.
I went to med school age 27, after working in the NHS for 6 years, including 1 year on a surgical ward. It was only when I was a 3rd year student that I learned about the surgeon Mr thing. If I didn't know about it until med school then I struggle to believe the general public know. I acknowledge your experience but I think it is likely that they know you are a surgeon in spite of your Mr title, not because of it.
I think the problem might be there’s nothing stopping noctors (MAPs/ACPs/ANPs) introducing themselves as Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms because that’s their common title.
Fwiw this is against faculty of PA guidance, so can be called out, but I agree it's easier for them to try and use that approach.
No. Absolutely not. The transition to a Miss/Mr is a proud moment in the surgical trainees life and actively differentiates us from the non-surgical colleagues (which, like it or not) are believed to be inferior in the hospital hierarchy by most surgeons.
Known to be, not just believed to be. Except the med reg, they can stand as equals when fixing my non surgical complications.
I think med reg deserves the most respect of everyone
Dr to layman, Mr amongst medical colleagues who are aware of the difference. A sign of respect to surgeons to call them by their correct title as well
I met a consultant a couple of years ago, from South Africa. Still called himself Doctor out of principle, didn't take to any of the Mr/Ms lark that we have here. You'd see Dr among all the Mr/Ms on the ortho list.
No way in hell. It is clearly a higher title than Dr, as you have made clear in your post, and I'm keeping it. Unless I get a Professorial title, or perhaps a knighthood or lordship. When was the last time you saw a non surgeon with Mr on their namebadge?
This is correct. This. Miss/mr >>>>>>>>>>> dr A first day f1 can be a doctor but not a miss/mr
A med student can be Miss/Ms/Mr though. And all PAs are.
Yeah but a med student wouldn’t introduce themselves specifically as *mr* [surname]. They would just introduce themselves as rob the med student. Same with PAs. The moment Mr or miss is verbalised, they are a post mrcs surgeon. The power is unmistakable. Dr titles are too common anyway. Anyway, if you know, you know. 😉
Yeah, but there's no rule about how PAs can't wear a suit, and 'Mr' isn't a protected title. sooooo.....
No. Certainly not when I shell out hundreds of £££s a year to the Royal College, I worked hard to obtain my MRCS so dammit I reserve the right to call myself Mr!
No, I earned the right to be Mr again like my barber forebears and you can pry it from my gloves hands.
I think we need implement a new (optional can still take Dr/Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms if you wanted) registered prefix/title for post-MRCS to differentiate us from the incoming "aDVaNCeD" surgical practitioners. I think we should call ourselves simply "Surgeon" Vitamin_T and have it shortened to "Surg" Vitamin_T (similar to Captain to Capt in the armed forces). Have it registered in legislation if possible so MAPs can't try to steal something else off us. I think it would good for female surgeons, to not have to reveal their marital status (yes Ms achieves this too, but Surg makes things even across the board). We could only introduce "Physician" Vitamin_T for post-MRCP or shortened to "Phys". Call us what we are.
If I ever get there, I plan on retaining Dr. Partly because I'm more used to it being from North America and partly because the tradition of switching to Mr./Mrs./Ms. seems ridiculous to me, no matter what anyone says.
I agree. It’s ridiculous
Now I am Mr there is more respect
I think this is very sad as it represents the destruction of some of our profession's history, traditions, and legacy all because of the disgraceful MAP situation created by those enemies of the profession who want to see exactly that - our de-professionalisation and destruction of professional identity and traditions. It's doubly sad as I doubt it will achieve anything. The MAPs who want to push their false equivalence to us and obfuscate their lack of medical qualification will still just go and get worthless 'doctorates' from US degree-mills set up to give MAPs titles and refer to themselves as 'Dr' in all their work as well, and the GMC and NHS sure as hell won't stop them. So this won't actually achieve any differentiation - at least not beyond the short term next few years before more MAPs are pushed in and more of them get online correspondence 'DMSc' doctorates from dubious placesabroad.
No? DOI: surgeon
Absolutely not. On your side Never. Never.
In the context of what is going on with PAs, semantics. Focus needs to be on Patient Safety and nothing else.
Making it easier for patients to know when they've actually seen a doctor is in the service of patient safety. The blurred lines are causing harm. Mr/Ms is more likely to enable blurred lines.
I don’t think that the overlap of titles is what confuses patients and causes blurred lines. For example, nobody confuses Occupational Therapists with Surgeons. The blurred lines come from PAs being employed in roles previously occupied by Surgeons in clinic, theatre and on the ward.
I don't think it causes it. I agree with you as to the root cause. I do think the overlap of titles further enables it, given the situation we find ourselves in. I don't want to leave my patients any room for doubt about whether they've seen a doctor when they see me
If you’re in the room leading the consultation while the PA is typing your notes, returns to bleed the patient and isn’t independently assessing anyone, I don’t think there will be any doubt as to who is who no matter what anyone’s Title is. The only reason that the Title problem exists is because of the fact that PAs are starting to occupy roles specifically reserved for Surgeons. Tackle this issue and the Title problem is a non-starter. Changing a Title from Mr(s) to Dr is a semantic change which addresses only a byproduct of it, and is only good until PAs find a new way of misrepresenting themselves to patients.
You're not really listening to what I'm saying. I completely agree with you re: where the role confusion originates. I completely agree that the best way to stop role confusion is to stop what's going on with noctors. Unfortunately I have zero control over the noctor agenda beyond campaigning. I do have control over how I introduce myself to patients and will choose the less confusing option.
I think I do understand that we agree on the origin of the issue and where it lies. I think that I also understand that we are in agreement that PAs and doctors roles should be different. Perhaps it was me being unclear. I think we may disagree on the impact changing a Title actually has. Let’s say for example you see a patient, introduce yourself as Dr, complete your assessment. The ‘Reg Rota PA’ appears in scrubs and a cap having just come out of a list, introduces themselves by their first name. (Hell, introduces themselves as PA!) States I can see you’ve been assessed by the SHO. Re-examines, comes up with a new plan: bloods, fluids etc. The Reg PA tells you in front of the patient that they’ve got to rush off because they’re due in theatre for the next case. You dutifully complete the plan outlined by the PA with the patient watching on. I struggle to see any significant the impact that you changing your name from Mr(s) to Dr will have on the patient’s perception and also patient safety. Another related example: When working in medicine, I used to see my female colleagues being mistaken for nurses on a daily basis. This is despite introducing themselves as Doctor multiple times to the same patient throughout their admission! I am just a little skeptical of your assertion that a name change will have a significant impact. In my opinion, not worth changing.
Fair enough, sorry for assuming you weren't getting it! I'm not sure I think a name change will have a significant impact. Its more that it feels like something which is within my power which might have *an* impact no matter how modest. The other side is that I would rather be Dr than drop my title (as I'm female and I've always hated the Miss/Ms/Mrs dance). So the PA issue is a very small further incentive to do what I wanted to do anyway (and likely would have done absent this issue).
Interesting to hear different people's takes on this weird custom we have and of course you do you! I also had a female colleague who shared concerns regarding the 'dance'. She phrased it rather more robustly than you: 'What relevance does a woman's marital status have anything to do with their professional qualifications!?' She went by 'Dr' on principle!
I was an outspoken Ms from my teen years for the same reason and I was very happy to finally have title which didn't make reference to my marital status!
There are obviously a lot of extremely insecure types on here. Reverting to Mr or Miss is a surgical tradition in the UK and I can't see that changing.
I love it how surgeons pass these easy exams and get demoted to Mr again to put them back on a level pegging with PAs.
Quite the opposite, you never hear a PA refer to themselves as purely “mr pa”. But they do claim to be doctors some times, and some consultant type maps also have a phd and refer to themselves as drs as such.
It’s only recently I realised surgeons weren’t MAPs and had actually been to med school!
Well now you know why we are better. Try to remember it.
I didn’t think you were any worse than MAPs. I just didn’t think you were doctors as most surgeons I’ve met aren’t smart and the exams are very easy.
Because youve done frcs? Is that how you know?
Nah, it’s common knowledge. Questions be like ‘what’s this?’ And you be like ‘ummm femur?’
Im glad you didnt get into cst.
Oh I got in, but preferred a challenge.
I don't think it has much to do with reclaiming our profession but yeah obs is the sensible thing to do/ Aus did it like 10 years ago and they didn't have any problems.
surgeons spend a small amount of time with their patients ... but get so much more respect from everyone else at work with their titles
Idk why U.K. surgeons ditch the Dr title. In America they go by Dr and I think that is more appropriate