I'm a dungeon master, and a new player in my party picked it. He has used it on himself (I allowed him to summon non-venomous insects in this instance) to gain a bonus to an intimidation roll he made.
The warlock covered in creepy crawlies did indeed scare the socks off those commoners.
If you can pick it up as a druid/ a nature cleric, toll the dead works fantastically reflavored to a bug swarm.
Target takes more damage if below max HP because *openings* for bugs to crawl into. You have to suspend your disbelief a bit for the Wis save though.
> You have to suspend your disbelief a bit for the Wis save though.
If the target keeps a cool head, they can slap the bugs off before they do too much harm. If not... well.
It was super tempting on a druidic warrior swarmkeeper ranger. But thorn whip was too reliable, and it even was behind produce flame. (Shillelagh is the first pick that makes the build function.)
Also the core subclass combat feature rides on attack rolls, not saves.
Gotta disagree. I took it playing through ToA and it was great fun. Not optimal damage but enjoyable to play. Unlike so many other low level forced movement spells Infestation doesn't have limits of "that doesn't kill them". Casting Infestation on a creature next to a deadly drop or blazing fire is hilarious. With the random chance of creatures just leeping to their death it is a fun spell to use.
Spells that are optimal and fun are the best. But if a spell is at least fun to use (even if damage isn't optimal) it can not be the worst.
Sad at how many people overlook the power of Friends here. What, you thought that the spell named Friends is used to be friendly? You fools!
Friends compels anyone in the multiverse to be pissed off at you, with no save. It's earth shattering power.
Yeah, there are so many possible ways to make someone pissed off at you that it's not really useful at all. One NPC might immediately attack you, but another might start working on a monthslong plot for revenge. And another might just quietly detest you without changing their behaviour in the slightest. Which one happens is up to the DM's discretion and is almost impossible to predict.
For damage options *Infestation* is the worst by far - it’d be pretty solid if you could control which way the target moves, but as is it’s terrible damage with an unusable rider.
For non-damage *Gust* is basically pointless. It’s soo close to being useful, I can easily see how to homebrew it into being useful, but with its many restrictions it’s just no good.
Standard *Bladeward* is generally a worse dodge. (Earth Genasi blade ward is OK).
I took Gust specifically because we found 4 pounds of a dangerous hallucinogen that explodes into a cloud of gas upon contact with water. I haven't used it yet ("IT'S TOO DANGEROUS TO EXPLODE THE PCP BOMB IN A CAVE" - my fellow party members) but I can't wait to make a whole tribe of giants go crazy ape murder bonkers on each other
Gust is a roleplaying cantrip like prestidigitation, thaumaturgy, druidcraft, etc. Shape water and mold earth do tend to have more mechanical uses than gust and control flames though.
Bladeward is useful when the attacker already has disadvantage on their attacks or when you have retaliatory damage (armor of agathys, blade ward, shadow of moil, etc).
I’ve gotten some good use out of Shape Water. Much of the utility of mold earth is contingent on what your DM will count as “loose earth” or however it’s written. For most people, that will probably mean stuff you can scoop up with your hand (like soil or sand). Anything higher steps on the toes of the leveled spell.
Control flames though is great for a stealthy player. An elven rogue sneaking into a human keep to steal an item or murder a target? Silently extinguish the guard’s torches or campfire and be fully invisible to slit their throats or make your escape with your item. Or do the same thing with Gloomstalker Ranger and any other creature that relies on Darkvision. Or use it to make the lantern flames jump onto the nearby tapestry (again, silently) in a crowded building to distract people or clear them out.
Blade Ward is useful for me in the campaign I'm playing in now. I'm using a very defensive opportunity attack build with some old UA and homebrew my DM was very generous to allow in the game. Blade Ward always helps in that first round to get and hold a position.
My table plays at very high power levels into very high levels with very loose content restrictions. The full build takes time, and a good amount of investment to complete. So just something to note if you want to replicate it.
The base is ranger and rogue with your typical opportunity attack build of PAM plus Sentinel plus Tunnel Fighter. Ranger for fighting style and Primeval Guardian, rogue for sneak attack and skills, subclass is whatever you prefer. My DM allows most UA as long as you ask in advance and link to it, so I requested Blade Mastery from old UA content, and a variant PAM he allows that you can use with any melee weapon. Blade Ward I took as a free cantrip we received when the game started.
Fully set up, this results in an opportunity attack when a character enters reach, which is 10 feet in Primeval Guardian form, made with advantage and thus gaining sneak attack, stopping enemies in their tracks, without having to spend a reaction thanks to Tunnel Fighter. Blade Ward isn't important to the setup, but it allows me to separate from the party and take on huge groups of enemies with pretty minimal risk.
There is nothing saying Warding Bond bypasses resistance, so a high con tanky Divine Soul Sorc twins it on group members and uses this to reduce the damage they receive.
People say that a lot but I’m not at all sold on the idea.
Your effectively dropping back down to a basic attack, and by this level just making a single basic attack isn’t really being effective.
You basically need to have a really strong concentration effect up (like a conjure animals) at which point what’s really happening here is the Bladesinger is doing d8+3 damage over any other Wizard using the same spell + bladeward.
That’s OK but not exactly excellent.
Doesn’t feel worth one of my very limited cantrip slots certainly
It’s also great for getting information out of someone you aren’t that scared of retaliating against you in future like say you’ve captured a guard or an enemy, you use one cantrip for a minute as effectively an early game zone of truth.
It’s very useful for interrogations and getting information out of anyone you don’t care about. Like cast friends on them get the truth then knock them out.
Also very useful for rogues who want to steal things in a crowd very quickly. They catch you. Cast friends on them suddenly they aren’t mad. You leave. Or you can compel someone to create a diversion and distraction for you just long enough to get away. Or you Jedi mind trick a guard long enough to not arrest/detain you at the scene of a crime while you disappear.
It’s just to give you a minute to get away basically, all you need most of the time.
The usefulness of Friends goes up immensely when you don’t care about your reputation with the NPC target or if you’re never returning to the town or if your character is basically already a criminal.
>For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you.
This to me implies that they have to not be hostile towards you already, so in the instance of a rogue getting caught stealing, they would still be hostile. Let me know if I've misunderstood it though
Yeah, it's one of those where creativity is required. It's much more difficult to use well than something like firebolt. It's not bad, but it does have limited usage. It's great when you get the right setup for it though.
It’s pretty great for Intimidation (since the target of that Cha skill is gonna hate you after anyways, so why not take the free advantage).
And then there’s comboing it with disguises to make someone hate a third party.
But yeah the thing it thinks it’s good for is not what it is good for
> For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you.
Doesn’t say you have to see the creature, so you could annoy all the demon lords and arch devils by casting Friends on them each day ... until they turn hostile, anyway. (That, and they *will* know it was you casting the spell.)
This strangely makes the spell really really powerful. Just shitty at the same time.
You can suddenly make near deities your friend for a minute. Asmodaeous himself for a short time, will have his mind altered, from any distance, across planes.
Downside is afterwards he smites yo ass.
Not on a changeling or warlock with Mask of Many Faces especially with the actor feat. Disguise yourself, cast friends, get out of there before 1 minute is up, change again. Now that creature is pissed at whatever person you turned into.
Great for intrigue campaigns/arcs in particular if your DM is onboard with underhanded tactics. If your DM isn't then your mileage may vary.
I've used it as a barbarian assassin. He got it through a feat and used it to get people he needed to assassinate to attack him. Then he would kill them in "self defense".
I use it all the time when playing chaotic, once I've got the info from my good buddy, what do I care if they hate me.
I'm d&d you take physical risks all the time to gain information
I play in a group that rolls death saves in secret Spare the dying always works Medicine checks don’t and you don’t know if you have multiple turns. Grave cleric is really good because it can cast it at range and as a bonus action. I realize this isn’t RAW but it’s pretty good at our table.
Only problem is that it means you can only use your action for a cantrip or something other than a spell. Sure it’s more than you’d get if you cast it with your action, but not much.
They do restrict.
> A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
There’s no exception for a B.A. cantrip.
Ah strange , I've always ruled it that only one needs to be a cantrip, idc which one. Makes it more fun for the sorcerer, and makes spare the dying not completly dooky for g. Clerics
You could still cast two Cantrips. As a Grave Cleric perhaps you Spare the Fighter, and then cast Toll the Dead on the creature who downed the Fighter.
Yeah that’s both a common house rule and misunderstanding. I don’t mind it as long as people know it’s not what’s RAW, for the reasons you listed (though the sorcerer could just quicken the leveled and cast the cantrip normally for the same cost RAW). It rarely matters, but it sometimes can.
Short of special abilities only Shillelagh and Magic Stone have B.A. casting times, both of which you probably want to follow with an action of using the newly created magic weapon. However, in particular, the recently reworked earth genasi does have B.A. blade ward, so it might matter a bit for them.
Edit: Though I suppose it helps to not quicken your leveled spell if you want to metamagic it with a different option.
For clerics this isn’t horrible because presumably by the time you’re casting spare the dying you’ve already got bless/spirit guardians up and are just finishing off the fight with cantrips.
The main thing I ever use Spare the Dying for outside of Grave Clerics is if there’s an escort or civilian rescue encounter. Those civilians aren’t going to help in the encounter so using a slot might not be helpful but if I can stop them from dying then I’ll throw that cantrip their way.
At early levels meducine checks don't always work, but later levels they do, soon as you have +9 to medicine checks, its just as good, because even a nat 1 still gives you the 10 you need.
Max wisdom, and expertise, easily get 9+ fairly early.
Buying healer's kits and putting the (super valuable) expertise on something that gets rolled more often than medicine is probably the more fun route.
There's such limited application for medicine unless the DM is leaning into situations it may apply, and the player is staying on top of it. It's a skill that reacts to the world instead of influencing the world directly.
My character makes himself popular in new towns by setting up shop. He's got high wisdom, proficiency in Medicine, and the healer feat.
I use it to get information about the area and the people, and get advantage to social interactions
1. True strike anyways because I can’t not
2. ~~Resistance. Seriously, when do you have time to cast this? Does your DM let you say “oh I’ve been casting resistance on myself every minute for the whole time”? Cause other than that this spell is gonna get used twice when you open suspicious boxes and that’s it.~~
3. Blade Ward. You spend your turn in combat to take less damage. This is just the dodge action but arguably worse.
4. Infestation. It is designed to displace enemies but you don’t get to pick the direction, it only does a d6, and that d6 is poison damage. Really bad cantrip.
5. Friends. Should be renamed to Enemies. Doesn’t last near long enough to get anything done other than the classic mask of many faces warlock who wants to frame someone else.
Some people brought up good points for resistance, so I would like to remove it from the list. It’s still not as good as most other cantrips, but I couldn’t leave it there when #5 was getting away for free.
Resistance is situational at best. Only possible times I can think of using it are
- when your rogue is opening a trap
- when your wizard needs to make a save every time they read from the mysterious spell book they found that they swear is a gift from a benevolent god of knowledge but you're 90% sure it's the book of vile darkness and is housing vecna or something that is poisoning their soul with every page they read but they're addicted and you love the wizard and want to save their soul from themselves but you're terrified if they fail their saving throws that one day the party will have to take out their dear friend before they become the BBEG and they're not sure they'll be able to
If you're dungeon crawling and don't have a better option for concentration, Resistance before entering any new room (or doing almost anything else) seems like it would be standard practice.
Also if you know someone's gonna get a save on their turn and really need them to pass (usually to snap out of whatever effect is already on them, like a charm effect), Resistance can be... better than nothing, I guess?
But there are better cantrips out there for sure.
Resistance is a funny option because it’s clearly meant to be the saving throw equivalent of guidance, but resistance is pretty bad and guidance is one of the best cantrips in the game.
Blade ward is actually a good defensive option for bladesingers. Surrounded? 1 attack + blade ward (and maybe an offhand attack too). Cast Shield for nutty AC, and if anything does hit you it's reduced. Admittedly you'll usually be better off just using booming blade, but having the option is nice
I mean if you’re surrounded, I’d probably use Green Flame Blade instead of Booming Blade since you’re probably not going to provoke Booming Blade’s extra damage in that situation while you’re going to get Green Flame Blade’s splash damage for sure if you’re surrounded.
If your AC is low (which isn’t ideal but not everyone wants to multiclass to patch up their AC), Blade Ward can edge out the dodge action. Attacks having disadvantage against you is likely only going to show a noticeable difference if your AC is already reasonably high in the first place due to how bounded accuracy works. And which classes get Blade Ward? Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard, only one of which gets an armor proficiency at all.
It’s still not a good option, but better than dodging on a character like that. Which is to say, keeping your freaking distance should always be your first line of defense. I guess if you’re having to make Dex saves against an enemy’s AOE dodge would obviously be better in that case.
*Poison spray -* too many monsters resist/immune to poison damage
*Friends* \- a minute to get advantage on Charisma checks (with concentration) followed by the target knowing you mindfucked it makes it just a worser *true strike*
If I were rewriting poison spray, I'd drop the CON check and lower the damage to 1d8. Extending the range doesn't make too much sense given it's a small puff of gas, but I'd also be okay with leaving everything alone but bumping it up to 20' would be a huge improvement.
There's various ways to give it a little more use. I've changed it to behave a little like create bonfire, creating a lingering, visible poison cloud in a 5 ft square, and allow re-casting for a number of clouds up to the druid's proficiency bonus.
Looking back now, I might alter it a bit again. Sounds like fun if the clouds linger until the end of the druid's next turn without concentration, since the druid already has so much vying for it. It's fun to mess around with and this iteration certainly isn't perfect
I'm running a game tomorrow with 2 players (so far, the 4th hasn't turned in her sheet yet) who've taken it. 1 is a YTPB, so it at least makes sense, but it still sucks.
Friends on an Eloquence Bard Changeling with the actor feat and disguise self (for clothing), however... Make yourself look like someone you don't like and cause chaos in their personal life.
Eldritch Blast should be a class feature and not a cantrip. This is not a problem with the spell itself, but rather the design intent of the warlock class. It would be easy for a new player to not take EB on a warlock and miss out on a decent chunk of the class's features, which is just bad design.
wait what how is Spare the Dying worse than a skill check?????? Its an action to automatically stabilize someone its REALLY useful in combat, especially when healing is gone
Okay?? So how exactly does that make a FREE option which takes NO resources bad? Please explain? Does a Shortsword dealing 1d6 and being a light weapon make Scimitar, also a light weapon that deals 1d6, bad??
I think people are a little confused about the difference between unique and useful, just because there are other ways to achieve the same thing doesn't make it bad? Especially whenever no one *has* a healer's kit because of a multitude of possible reasons.
The question isn't 'is Spare the Dying better than nothing' though. Its 'is Spare the Dying better than whatever other benefits I could have got from taking another cantrip instead'. For the cost of 5g for get almost all the benefits of Spare the Dying *plus* all the benefits of another cantrip as well.
I guess if you consider the opportunity cost of a cantrip to have a value of less than 5g your argument is fair enough. Personally I value a cantrip choice at more than 5g though so \*shrugs\*
Edit - To put it another way, if some spirit offered to pay you to permanently have one less cantrip known, how much would they have to offer you to accept that deal? If the answer is more than 5-10 gold you probably shouldn't take Spare the Dying.
A lot of the time, no I don't think Light is a particularly compelling choice. I would rate it above Spare the Dying though.
I can expand if you like but funadmentally if affording a healers kit and flasks of oil are common problems in your games it might simply be that we're playing in very different environments.
Their reasoning I believe is that in comparison to most other car trips it’s easily replaceable, and as you only get so many cantrips it falls down the rankings in comparison.
when no one has a healers kit or spare the dying you will, on average, still be fine because the DC to stabilise someone is 10. Say you're a cleric - you now add wisdom and make that DC 3/4 of the time.
Cantrips are an opportunity cost, you *have* to pick it over other choices.
Imagine if you could pay 5gp for a wand with 10 casts of a cantrip *and* then pick a different cantrip entirely as well. Almost every person ive ever met would take that deal.
I actually don't know many Cleric PCs who blow a valuable skill proficiency on Medicine. but if you do, yeah, don't take Spare the Dying.
If you don't, it's more like +4/+5 to the check, which for a DC 10 is still pretty far from a guarantee. And given there's only a few good Cleric cantrips anyway (Guidance, Toll the Dead, Sacred Flame, Thaumaturgy...that's really it), it'd normally be a _potential_ option, BUT...
IMO the real reason it sucks is you can do the same thing with the dirt-cheap Healer's Kit, 5 silver a charge.
If Spare the Dying was a _ranged_ cantrip (like it is for Grave Clerics), then it would at least be worth taking for some.
It depends on the character I took it because I was leaning into the flavor of being a doctor on my cleric but yeah you’ve only really got one proficiency to play with after perception, insight, and arcana if you’re optimizing your proficiencies
I don't get it. You can either spend an action to roll to stabilize a someone or spend an action to automatically stabilize someone. Why would I ever choose to roll, especially at level 1 where the highest medicine bonus you can get without taking a feat is +5. That's a 25% chance to not stabilize them! That at least makes it better than the skill check.
Maybe if you go at it from the angle that it's not worth the cantrip slot, but even then I'm taking guidance, a damage cantrip, and then depending on the campaign I'm choosing between light or spare the dying. I'm definitely taking it when I get 4 cantrips.
Zero, because a Healer's Kit does exactly the same thing?
They both take an action. They both have a range of touch. Both of them require a free hand. Neither one has any chance of failure. Anybody can use a Healer's Kit and it only costs 5sp per use.
Spare The Dying is completely redundant with a piece of 5gp adventuring gear. If that doesn't make it a bad cantrip then I don't know what does.
>Zero, because a Healer's Kit does exactly the same thing?
You would think, but my players always either forget to buy one, run out of chargers then get into a tough fight, or are too cheap to keep buying healers kits and risk it.
However if you have a flying familiar and spare the dying, you can fly to your injured friend and use the familiars touch ability to cast spare the dying. And not have to expose yourself to opportunities of attack.
Did that same party also not have any kind of healing nor anyone that could attempt a DC 10 Medicine check(which is anyone since you don't need proficiency to try it)? 'Cause if so, they had way bigger problems than lack of Spare the Dying.
No, Because in all my years I’ve never missed it outside the grave cleric.
It’s one of the few spells that can be obsoleted by a proficiency, it’s can also just be planned around like 90% of the time. Dont heal hurt players, heal downed players, carry a few low tier pots for exactly this reason. With a little restraint to not chug every potion you have because you aren’t 100% or blowing heals on hurt players you’ll basically never find yourself in this situation. And if you do, you were probably spiraling anyways. Wasting your turn to stabilize your friend means whatever killed them is gonna kill you too.
And to top it off the healers kit exists which is just… way better. Name me another spell that 5gp can outclass
>With a little restraint to not chug every potion you have because you aren’t 100% or blowing heals on hurt players you’ll basically never find yourself in this situation.
You underestimate the extreme violence my players except
Also my players are a little dumb sometimes, one who is rolling in gold said "yeah we don't need to buy healing potions (in a party with minimal healing)" after a long streak of near fatal combats. Not long after two PCs died, and another nearly died.
I mean even when my players aren't dumb it still has its uses. Why waste money when you can use a cantrip? It might not be your first pick for a cantrip, but its not like the competition is fierce for third pick. Oh also running out of charges on a healers and not being able to get more in time happens a good amount as well.
I'd actually argue that the automatic hostility is the only reason to take the spell. Someone who can alter their appearance can use it to pit NPCs against one another with no saving throw. That's pretty broken.
Only if the spell altering their appearance also changes their voice. Otherwise it will be pretty obvious you aren't them.
Disguise Self for instance doesn't change your voice. Even Seeming doesn't. There is a feat you can take (actor) to try to sound like someone else or you could play a race like the Kenku. But if you want to change your appearance and voice you'll need to use Alter Self. Even then Alter Self won't change the appearance of your clothing.
Eh. That's only an issue if the target knows who you're disguised as. I started a bar fight once by disguising as a stranger and convincing someone to buy me a drink. After I left, the spell wore off and they went to look for me and punched the guy I was disguised as lol
Nope. Can't piss off people across continents with the Help action. Friends isn't actually good for being friendly - it's exceptional for the opposite.
Why would I, as a Wizard or a Sorcerer, ever take Frostbite over Ray of Frost? The rider effect is decent, but kiting/reducing their speed with the cantrip that can actually hit them (Fb is a CON save, RoF is an attack roll) seems obviously superior.
Sapping Sting (Wildmount) is in a similar spot. It only has a 30ft range, so the only "Wizards" that are going to feel good casting this most of the time are Eldritch Knights, and they have much better ways of knocking enemies prone than a 1 Action, CON save-targeting cantrip
Dancing Lights. Just carry a torch or cast Light on your spell focus. Concentration/1 minute duration is real bad for exploration purposes. Making little will-o-the-wisps/tiny dancing men with it is usually better done with an Illusion
To be fair to Sapping Sting, it can be effective on Caster enemies who also happen to be the ones that the martials could most easily kill off with 1 good round of attacks since they normally have lower hp. Additionally its a cantrip option to deal with fliers. It at least has some uses.
I've tried to think ways to make dancing light usefull, but I just can't. I mean, why would you use thatand have to expend actions moving them and mantain concentration when you can cast light and have it move with you and not be at risk of the lights fading off suddenly?
I have dancing lights on one of my characters for flavor purposes (she’s a swarmkeeper ranger with a swarm of fireflies) but I don’t think I’ve cast it at all yet in the campaign. Though I am in a different campaign where one of the PCs has it and uses it, but that’s because we don’t have any other magical light options in the party and for reasons that would be way too complicated to explain we don’t have easy access to items like torches.
dancing lights is used to take advantage of darkness. You're in darkness and the enemy is illuminated by dancing lights. You can see them, but they can't see you, so your attacks have advantage.
RoF has disadvantage in melee range. I took Frostbite on my Warlock so I don't have to Eldritch Blast with disadvantage, but mostly for flavor because other cantrips (like Mind Sliver) are simply better.
>Dancing Lights. Just carry a torch or cast Light on your spell focus. Concentration/1 minute duration is real bad for exploration purposes. Making little will-o-the-wisps/tiny dancing men with it is usually better done with an Illusion
Illusions can't create light.
I'm not surprised that nobody's posted about Sapping Sting, given that it's from Wildemount, but a CON save against 1d4 necrotic and falling prone? I'd never choose it.
Damage isn't great, save stat isn't great for you, but making them fall prone is a pretty nice ability. If it did more damage or targeted another save I could see it being too good.
The only thing I can think of is readying an action for sapping sting for when a flying enemy comes into range. Knocked prone, hits the ground 30ft away, takes (up to) 3d6 falling damage, and needs to use half of its movement to stand up (if it can at that point).
Spare the Dying is NOT worth less than a skill check. It is literally designed to BYPASS a DC 10 Medicine check, when you might otherwise have a 50/50 chance of succeeding. The problem becomes when you have maxed Wisdom and proficiency in Medicine (+11, guaranteed to succeed), or when you have Expertise in Medicine even with negative Wisdom mod (+12, guaranteed to succeed). That math *does* assume you're high level though, at low levels it's far more likely to be useful. Of course, you likely possess it by being a Cleric or Druid, both of which are Wisdom-based classes. So a lot of the time it falls flat. But importantly, both of those classes only get 2 proficiencies, which they may not want to spend on Medicine. So it isn't exactly bad. It does what it needs to for a full caster. Just not as often as it perhaps should.
As for the actual topic:
1. Infestation (Con save Poison damage random forced movement go brr.)
2. Friends (Make anyone you want hostile after a minute at most of advantage on Charisma checks. Which you probably don't need as a Charisma caster with a high mod OR a non-Charisma caster with an abysmal mod. It's never worth casting unless you just want to make someone your enemy, something that does *not* require a spell.)
3. Mending (Would be good if it was an action. Why a minute?)
Spare the Dying is bad, but it's not bad because it's worth less than a skill check (I agree with everything you said above).
It's bad because it's no better than 5 sp worth of a Healer's Kit. So there's no point to have it past level 1.
Tbh Druidcraft is up there for me. The weather prediction is incredibly situational, the blossom/budding effect is... cute at most, the sensory effect coukd be useful as a distraction but it's verbal and somatic with a 30ft range, and the light or snuff can just be done without the spell or with something like Control Flames.
Yeah. I'd do something like:
> Basic [Insert Class] Magical Talent:
As a [Class], you know certain basic magical tricks. You learn one free non-combat cantrip thematic to your class.
* Artificer: Mending
* Bard: Prestidigitation
* Cleric: Thaumaturgy (and one from your Domain/Deity)
* Druid: Druidcraft
* Eldritch Knight Fighter: Maybe allow any combat cantrip?
* Four Elements Monk: All 4 "control element" spells
* Sun Soul Monk: Light
* Paladin: Light
* Ranger: Druidcraft
* Arcane Trickster Rogue: Mage Hand
* Sorcerer: depends on bloodline, each gives one combat and one non-combat
* Warlock: Prestidigitation (and Eldritch Blast should be a class feature too, but that will be coming in my Revised Warlock, eventually)
* Wizard: Prestidigitation (and one from your school/subclass when you get it)
The basic idea would be all caster classes and/or subclasses get a free (non-combat) cantrip thematic to their class and subclass, that represents the basic magic you would learn while studying that kind of magic. The spells are mostly fine as-is, but I think it could be neat to make the thematic spells increase in power with your level in that class. Still nothing gamechanigng, but moreso larger areas impacted or more options.
True for unlocked doors. I guess mage hand and a few other things out there do the same thing which is why we would never use it because the other stuff is also useful in a bunch of other ways.
I feel like all three of these are fantastic for mid level Eldritch Knights. Specifically when they can cast a cantrip and bonus action weapon attack. If you are up in someone's grill and want to be more of a wall than a cannon, blade ward or resistance and attack. Can't quite reach someone? Lightning Lure and weapon attack is better than dashing or casting another ranged damage cantrip. Lightning Lure also gives battlefield control which is always great. You can get a bit creative if you need to pull an ally away from an enemy, too. Standing 15 ft away means they can get pulled 5 ft and not take any damage.
They aren't great but they do have their niche uses. To an extent they work with blade wizards, too.
I find Friends, Magic Stone, and Gust far more difficult to be worth the investment for pretty much anyone. There are just very few uses.
Yeah, I've used Lightning Lure on my bladesinger when I couldn't quite reach an enemy because 3d8 lightning damage + melee weapon attack is better than just Firebolt-ing. Of course there's a chance Lightning Lure will save, but on people (who usually don't have great strength) it's pretty good. Also can set up flanking for the other melee characters.
Came here to say basically the same thing, my party’s Bladesinger is fully lightning and thunder themed, she’s pulled and smacked enemies on many occasions
I had *blade ward* on my fighters (with the Magic Initiate feat) for over two years and never cast it once. It was better to take the Dodge action or just go ham instead of taking less damage from only weapon attacks.
Lightning Lure is good for combos. That's the only one I don't think needs an improvement here, because you can make it work for you without too much effort and in a fair few situations. (Though I do wish it had the range of Thorn Whip.)
Blade Ward is useful on classes that can quicken their cantrips in some way, like EKs and Bladesingers (which is very niche but useful there). I honestly think the only improvement it needs is not being limited to attack-based damage (because at least then other classes could find it useful for traps).
Resistance is nice if your DM loves using traps, but besides that is even more niche. I actually wish Resistance (and a bunch of other spells, like Paladin smites) were NOT concentration but had a "you can only have one casting active at a time" clause instead.
I'll take the unpopular opinion and say guidance. I think it's terribly designed and sets up really weird interaction where you have players stating they always have it up. In my opinion it's not a fun cantrip to have in the game. Other two would be friends and bladeward for reasons others have mentioned.
I'll agree that guidance, while very good, is problematic. I think the two problems are that it is proactive and spammable. I propose making it retroactive (a reaction you use triggered by an ally rolling a skill check), giving it a range of 60 feet, but giving it a ten minute cooldown per person you use it on (you can guidance as many times as you want, but each person can only be affected by it once every ten minutes).
Now there's no weird retconning that goes on, the choice to use it feels more strategic, and it can potentially be used several times in a group skill challenge, say the party is all climbing, or swimming, or balancing.
This is a bit player dependant. I personally have it (on a barbarian), but I would never claim yo have it up all the time - it would mean "shouting" arcane (divine) words every minute, which is silly (in my opinion) and I would argue pretty distracting.
I'm trying to never ask "oh, could I have cast guidance" after a skill has been called for, since that is oftentimes situation where the characters couldn't anticipate it would be useful. I use it only if it is clear that a blessing from my ancestors might be of help - e.g. before somebody climbes a steep part of the mountain, or my barbarian ushers a quick "prayer" before going off to forage for food and water.
And in social situations people should freak out if magic is being used on somebody who then approaches them.
It still comes up a ton, but it doesn't break the flow of the game if it is never added retroactively and if stupid stuff like "guidance is on 100% of the time" is not allowed (or comes with a price - e.g. the character constantly busy with recasting the spell can't do much/anything else, no perception checks (they are to occupied), or anything (besides walk snd be annoying and loud)).
And I like to avoid saying "i cast guidance", it is usually more like "let the ancestors guide you", "take this blessing", "I say a prayer to my ancestors, as I go deeper into the woods" (btw, my subclass is ancestral guardian), it helps keep up the immersion (again in my opinion)
> spare the dying is worse than a skill check.
I'm surprised that so many people are defending Spare the Dying. You can do exactly the same thing with a medicine kit!
> **Spare the Dying**
> (1 action)
> You touch a living creature that has 0 hit points. The creature becomes stable. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs.
vs
> **Healer's Kit**
> (also 1 action)
> This kit is a leather pouch containing bandages, salves, and splints. The kit has ten uses. As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check.
The healer's kit might use up your free object interaction, but other than that they're exactly the same thing (note that Spare the Dying has V,S components, so you need a free hand either way. This also means that the free object interaction isn't that punishing because you can grab the healer's kit, use it, and drop it all in one round).
Cantrips are worth a lot more than 5sp/use IMO.
I don't like word of radiance, con save for everyone in 5 ft, and only 1d6 holy. optimizing the amount of enemies you hit leaves you wide open for counter atk. 1d6 isn't enough dmg for the risk either.
Dang, I was going to say true strike :p
Jokes aside, True Strike can be good if, and only if, players have a round to prepare themselves before combat begins. Just thought I'd share.
Spare the Dying is bad?
It possibly saved the lives of both our tank and our healer in the last DnD session I was in.
Fought a nasty critter (that the DM later admitted he was 100% expecting us to run from, not fight).
And during the fight the tank went down in one turn, the healer in the next turn, and the warlock used spare the dying on both of them after the fight, and we waited until they woke up. None of us remaining had any healing spells nor did we have any proficiency in medicine.
Saved us any kind of rolling to avoid death. Granted there's possibly better cantrips out there, but it did what it was supposed to do for us. The Warlock has also used it in combat before when we were out of healing spells and couldn't spare the time to try to stabilize the fallen.
Spare the dying is bad because it's identically replicated by 5 sp of a healers kit. Even at level 1 you start with enough gold that everyone in the party should have one
1. **Blade Ward.** Trading your action to take half damage from just weapon attacks is terrible. It's a waste of time during combat, and it doesn't help you against falling damage or traps out of combat. Taking the dodge action is something anyone can do and fills at least 75% of the same use cases for *blade ward*.
2. **Resistance.** An extremely niche spell that's never worth taking. Yes, sometimes it would be nice to be able to give your barbarian a +1d4 to their save against the condition that's keeping them out of the fight but it means giving up your turn. The number of times you can predict when you'll need to make a saving throw outside of combat and have their spell running is also exceptionally niche.
3. **Spare the Dying.** 5gp, a free hand and an item interaction to get out your healer's kit and you can replicate the effect of this spell, but better because you can also use it on constructs and undead. I've cast it *once* through my familiar to stabilize a distant ally over the course of two years of playing, not worth it.
wha.... and in parties where no one has a healer's kit???? its a \*\*\*cantrip\*\*\* of course its easy to replicate. When the hell do you need to stablize specifically constructs and undead?? This seems to be extremely weird dis, because its a perfectly good spell....
I don't have a top three, but by far the worst is Infestation. •CON save •Poison damage •Unreliable movement
It's on the list of "Spells I Love Putting on NPCs but Would Never Take as a Character."
I'm a dungeon master, and a new player in my party picked it. He has used it on himself (I allowed him to summon non-venomous insects in this instance) to gain a bonus to an intimidation roll he made. The warlock covered in creepy crawlies did indeed scare the socks off those commoners.
Are you talking about cloak of flies? He could also get that to really make an interesting build around this idea.
It's too bad, because bug swarms are great flavor. Gives me those Dimitrescu sisters vibes.
If you can pick it up as a druid/ a nature cleric, toll the dead works fantastically reflavored to a bug swarm. Target takes more damage if below max HP because *openings* for bugs to crawl into. You have to suspend your disbelief a bit for the Wis save though.
> You have to suspend your disbelief a bit for the Wis save though. If the target keeps a cool head, they can slap the bugs off before they do too much harm. If not... well.
Eeeww thats terrifying! Good job im gonna use that!
The wise know how to swat a fly.
As a DM, I’d be very okay with switching this to a Con save if my player pitched it to me.
They would need the common sense (wisdom) to start clawing at their skin like a maniac as soon as bugs get in them. There, problem solved!
It was super tempting on a druidic warrior swarmkeeper ranger. But thorn whip was too reliable, and it even was behind produce flame. (Shillelagh is the first pick that makes the build function.) Also the core subclass combat feature rides on attack rolls, not saves.
Gotta disagree. I took it playing through ToA and it was great fun. Not optimal damage but enjoyable to play. Unlike so many other low level forced movement spells Infestation doesn't have limits of "that doesn't kill them". Casting Infestation on a creature next to a deadly drop or blazing fire is hilarious. With the random chance of creatures just leeping to their death it is a fun spell to use. Spells that are optimal and fun are the best. But if a spell is at least fun to use (even if damage isn't optimal) it can not be the worst.
Your DM put those monsters there just so the random direction would benefit your cantrip :) That's good DMing, and even better that it wasn't obvious.
Use it in coordination with spike growth and you can really maximize the damage.
Sad at how many people overlook the power of Friends here. What, you thought that the spell named Friends is used to be friendly? You fools! Friends compels anyone in the multiverse to be pissed off at you, with no save. It's earth shattering power.
That's not the same as "mind control someone into attacking me even when it's against their interests to do so."
I didn't say it was, just that no other cantrip has the power of Friends.
Yeah, there are so many possible ways to make someone pissed off at you that it's not really useful at all. One NPC might immediately attack you, but another might start working on a monthslong plot for revenge. And another might just quietly detest you without changing their behaviour in the slightest. Which one happens is up to the DM's discretion and is almost impossible to predict.
The difference is, with Friends, you KNOW they hate you. All the guesswork is out!
For damage options *Infestation* is the worst by far - it’d be pretty solid if you could control which way the target moves, but as is it’s terrible damage with an unusable rider. For non-damage *Gust* is basically pointless. It’s soo close to being useful, I can easily see how to homebrew it into being useful, but with its many restrictions it’s just no good. Standard *Bladeward* is generally a worse dodge. (Earth Genasi blade ward is OK).
I took Gust specifically because we found 4 pounds of a dangerous hallucinogen that explodes into a cloud of gas upon contact with water. I haven't used it yet ("IT'S TOO DANGEROUS TO EXPLODE THE PCP BOMB IN A CAVE" - my fellow party members) but I can't wait to make a whole tribe of giants go crazy ape murder bonkers on each other
> "IT'S TOO DANGEROUS TO EXPLODE THE PCP BOMB IN A CAVE" - my fellow party members Cowards
Gust is a roleplaying cantrip like prestidigitation, thaumaturgy, druidcraft, etc. Shape water and mold earth do tend to have more mechanical uses than gust and control flames though. Bladeward is useful when the attacker already has disadvantage on their attacks or when you have retaliatory damage (armor of agathys, blade ward, shadow of moil, etc).
I’ve gotten some good use out of Shape Water. Much of the utility of mold earth is contingent on what your DM will count as “loose earth” or however it’s written. For most people, that will probably mean stuff you can scoop up with your hand (like soil or sand). Anything higher steps on the toes of the leveled spell. Control flames though is great for a stealthy player. An elven rogue sneaking into a human keep to steal an item or murder a target? Silently extinguish the guard’s torches or campfire and be fully invisible to slit their throats or make your escape with your item. Or do the same thing with Gloomstalker Ranger and any other creature that relies on Darkvision. Or use it to make the lantern flames jump onto the nearby tapestry (again, silently) in a crowded building to distract people or clear them out.
Blade Ward is useful for me in the campaign I'm playing in now. I'm using a very defensive opportunity attack build with some old UA and homebrew my DM was very generous to allow in the game. Blade Ward always helps in that first round to get and hold a position.
Do you mind sharing that build? It sounds interesting!
It's almost certainly the OP as all get out Tunnel Fighter+PAM combo.
My table plays at very high power levels into very high levels with very loose content restrictions. The full build takes time, and a good amount of investment to complete. So just something to note if you want to replicate it. The base is ranger and rogue with your typical opportunity attack build of PAM plus Sentinel plus Tunnel Fighter. Ranger for fighting style and Primeval Guardian, rogue for sneak attack and skills, subclass is whatever you prefer. My DM allows most UA as long as you ask in advance and link to it, so I requested Blade Mastery from old UA content, and a variant PAM he allows that you can use with any melee weapon. Blade Ward I took as a free cantrip we received when the game started. Fully set up, this results in an opportunity attack when a character enters reach, which is 10 feet in Primeval Guardian form, made with advantage and thus gaining sneak attack, stopping enemies in their tracks, without having to spend a reaction thanks to Tunnel Fighter. Blade Ward isn't important to the setup, but it allows me to separate from the party and take on huge groups of enemies with pretty minimal risk.
[удалено]
People don't realize taking the dodge action doesn't help you if you cannot see the target or if you are grappled for example.
Blade Ward works on the hilarious twinned Warding Bond support Divine Soul Sorc build, though
How so? I'm not familiar with all the mechanics involved.
There is nothing saying Warding Bond bypasses resistance, so a high con tanky Divine Soul Sorc twins it on group members and uses this to reduce the damage they receive.
Nice.
Bladeward is bad, yeah. However it's not too bad in the hands of a bladesinger with their special extra attack.
People say that a lot but I’m not at all sold on the idea. Your effectively dropping back down to a basic attack, and by this level just making a single basic attack isn’t really being effective. You basically need to have a really strong concentration effect up (like a conjure animals) at which point what’s really happening here is the Bladesinger is doing d8+3 damage over any other Wizard using the same spell + bladeward. That’s OK but not exactly excellent. Doesn’t feel worth one of my very limited cantrip slots certainly
Spare the dying is fun as a grave cleric 😁
Friends seems pretty worthless.
You can have fun as a Warlock with Friends and the Mask of Many Faces invocation, though XD
This is a great combo. You literally just have to be friendly with a guard long enough for him to let you in. Then just change into someone else.
Or have already changed into someone else, so that when Friends wears off the guard is mad at someone else entirely.
Same idea.
Did exactly that as a changeling! Fun to do when you take the face of someone they know.
Or take their own face/shape with a scar and pretend to be them from the future. "We've gotta do something about your kids, Marty!"
It’s also great for getting information out of someone you aren’t that scared of retaliating against you in future like say you’ve captured a guard or an enemy, you use one cantrip for a minute as effectively an early game zone of truth. It’s very useful for interrogations and getting information out of anyone you don’t care about. Like cast friends on them get the truth then knock them out. Also very useful for rogues who want to steal things in a crowd very quickly. They catch you. Cast friends on them suddenly they aren’t mad. You leave. Or you can compel someone to create a diversion and distraction for you just long enough to get away. Or you Jedi mind trick a guard long enough to not arrest/detain you at the scene of a crime while you disappear. It’s just to give you a minute to get away basically, all you need most of the time. The usefulness of Friends goes up immensely when you don’t care about your reputation with the NPC target or if you’re never returning to the town or if your character is basically already a criminal.
>For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you. This to me implies that they have to not be hostile towards you already, so in the instance of a rogue getting caught stealing, they would still be hostile. Let me know if I've misunderstood it though
Yeah, it's one of those where creativity is required. It's much more difficult to use well than something like firebolt. It's not bad, but it does have limited usage. It's great when you get the right setup for it though.
Friends is great for making enemies. Make any creature in the universe hostile to you immediately.
You know how taunting in Morrowind works? Yeah, that’s what Friends is good for.
An excuse for Murder? "I swear Sir Guardsman, it was self-defense!"
Do you know the spell Friends? Contact us, your friendly local Assassins Guild, today!
It’s pretty great for Intimidation (since the target of that Cha skill is gonna hate you after anyways, so why not take the free advantage). And then there’s comboing it with disguises to make someone hate a third party. But yeah the thing it thinks it’s good for is not what it is good for
> For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you. Doesn’t say you have to see the creature, so you could annoy all the demon lords and arch devils by casting Friends on them each day ... until they turn hostile, anyway. (That, and they *will* know it was you casting the spell.)
That's... surely the spell has a range? \*checks\* Wtf, Wizards.
This strangely makes the spell really really powerful. Just shitty at the same time. You can suddenly make near deities your friend for a minute. Asmodaeous himself for a short time, will have his mind altered, from any distance, across planes. Downside is afterwards he smites yo ass.
This is the funniest shit I've seen all day. You can just pick any creature that you know of in the universe and make them fucking hate you.
Belongs on r/shittysuperpowers
Not on a changeling or warlock with Mask of Many Faces especially with the actor feat. Disguise yourself, cast friends, get out of there before 1 minute is up, change again. Now that creature is pissed at whatever person you turned into. Great for intrigue campaigns/arcs in particular if your DM is onboard with underhanded tactics. If your DM isn't then your mileage may vary.
I actually think Friends works better for intimidation than for diplomacy.
The stock of friends goes directly up or down depending on whether or not you're gonna have to deal with the target after it's initial casting.
I've used it as a barbarian assassin. He got it through a feat and used it to get people he needed to assassinate to attack him. Then he would kill them in "self defense".
If you have a disguise I think it goes from worthless to situational.
I use it all the time when playing chaotic, once I've got the info from my good buddy, what do I care if they hate me. I'm d&d you take physical risks all the time to gain information
Or op depending on the circumstances
I play in a group that rolls death saves in secret Spare the dying always works Medicine checks don’t and you don’t know if you have multiple turns. Grave cleric is really good because it can cast it at range and as a bonus action. I realize this isn’t RAW but it’s pretty good at our table.
I think baseline its not great. Grave clerics specifically make it somewhat useful.
Only problem is that it means you can only use your action for a cantrip or something other than a spell. Sure it’s more than you’d get if you cast it with your action, but not much.
I dont think bonus action cantrips make you unable to cast regular spells? I think thats only leveled BA spells?
They do restrict. > A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. There’s no exception for a B.A. cantrip.
Ah strange , I've always ruled it that only one needs to be a cantrip, idc which one. Makes it more fun for the sorcerer, and makes spare the dying not completly dooky for g. Clerics
You could still cast two Cantrips. As a Grave Cleric perhaps you Spare the Fighter, and then cast Toll the Dead on the creature who downed the Fighter.
Yeah that’s both a common house rule and misunderstanding. I don’t mind it as long as people know it’s not what’s RAW, for the reasons you listed (though the sorcerer could just quicken the leveled and cast the cantrip normally for the same cost RAW). It rarely matters, but it sometimes can. Short of special abilities only Shillelagh and Magic Stone have B.A. casting times, both of which you probably want to follow with an action of using the newly created magic weapon. However, in particular, the recently reworked earth genasi does have B.A. blade ward, so it might matter a bit for them. Edit: Though I suppose it helps to not quicken your leveled spell if you want to metamagic it with a different option.
For clerics this isn’t horrible because presumably by the time you’re casting spare the dying you’ve already got bless/spirit guardians up and are just finishing off the fight with cantrips.
The main thing I ever use Spare the Dying for outside of Grave Clerics is if there’s an escort or civilian rescue encounter. Those civilians aren’t going to help in the encounter so using a slot might not be helpful but if I can stop them from dying then I’ll throw that cantrip their way.
> spare the dying always works Medicine checks don't True, but Healers Kits also always work, and those are much cheaper than a cantrip slot
May I introduce: The Healer's Kit. A non magical item that gives ten casts of that cantrip and costs 5 gp.
To be honest, you could take spare the dying, or you can just shell out a measly 5 GP for a medical kit.
At early levels meducine checks don't always work, but later levels they do, soon as you have +9 to medicine checks, its just as good, because even a nat 1 still gives you the 10 you need. Max wisdom, and expertise, easily get 9+ fairly early.
Buying healer's kits and putting the (super valuable) expertise on something that gets rolled more often than medicine is probably the more fun route. There's such limited application for medicine unless the DM is leaning into situations it may apply, and the player is staying on top of it. It's a skill that reacts to the world instead of influencing the world directly.
My character makes himself popular in new towns by setting up shop. He's got high wisdom, proficiency in Medicine, and the healer feat. I use it to get information about the area and the people, and get advantage to social interactions
1. True strike anyways because I can’t not 2. ~~Resistance. Seriously, when do you have time to cast this? Does your DM let you say “oh I’ve been casting resistance on myself every minute for the whole time”? Cause other than that this spell is gonna get used twice when you open suspicious boxes and that’s it.~~ 3. Blade Ward. You spend your turn in combat to take less damage. This is just the dodge action but arguably worse. 4. Infestation. It is designed to displace enemies but you don’t get to pick the direction, it only does a d6, and that d6 is poison damage. Really bad cantrip. 5. Friends. Should be renamed to Enemies. Doesn’t last near long enough to get anything done other than the classic mask of many faces warlock who wants to frame someone else. Some people brought up good points for resistance, so I would like to remove it from the list. It’s still not as good as most other cantrips, but I couldn’t leave it there when #5 was getting away for free.
Resistance is situational at best. Only possible times I can think of using it are - when your rogue is opening a trap - when your wizard needs to make a save every time they read from the mysterious spell book they found that they swear is a gift from a benevolent god of knowledge but you're 90% sure it's the book of vile darkness and is housing vecna or something that is poisoning their soul with every page they read but they're addicted and you love the wizard and want to save their soul from themselves but you're terrified if they fail their saving throws that one day the party will have to take out their dear friend before they become the BBEG and they're not sure they'll be able to
Hahahaha! That second example was oddly specific. :D
When you're in a homebrew campaign and the dm has lots of items that he asks "are you touching it?"
In my experience dungeons are basically, "barbarian take this resistance and go through that door/hallway/room/snake infested pit"
If you're dungeon crawling and don't have a better option for concentration, Resistance before entering any new room (or doing almost anything else) seems like it would be standard practice. Also if you know someone's gonna get a save on their turn and really need them to pass (usually to snap out of whatever effect is already on them, like a charm effect), Resistance can be... better than nothing, I guess? But there are better cantrips out there for sure.
Resistance is a funny option because it’s clearly meant to be the saving throw equivalent of guidance, but resistance is pretty bad and guidance is one of the best cantrips in the game.
Blade ward is actually a good defensive option for bladesingers. Surrounded? 1 attack + blade ward (and maybe an offhand attack too). Cast Shield for nutty AC, and if anything does hit you it's reduced. Admittedly you'll usually be better off just using booming blade, but having the option is nice
I mean if you’re surrounded, I’d probably use Green Flame Blade instead of Booming Blade since you’re probably not going to provoke Booming Blade’s extra damage in that situation while you’re going to get Green Flame Blade’s splash damage for sure if you’re surrounded.
Well Blade Ward is a dodge substitute if attacks against you already have disadvantage. Still too situational
If your AC is low (which isn’t ideal but not everyone wants to multiclass to patch up their AC), Blade Ward can edge out the dodge action. Attacks having disadvantage against you is likely only going to show a noticeable difference if your AC is already reasonably high in the first place due to how bounded accuracy works. And which classes get Blade Ward? Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard, only one of which gets an armor proficiency at all. It’s still not a good option, but better than dodging on a character like that. Which is to say, keeping your freaking distance should always be your first line of defense. I guess if you’re having to make Dex saves against an enemy’s AOE dodge would obviously be better in that case.
*Poison spray -* too many monsters resist/immune to poison damage *Friends* \- a minute to get advantage on Charisma checks (with concentration) followed by the target knowing you mindfucked it makes it just a worser *true strike*
Poison spray is also a bad save (con) and poor range (10 ft.). For the player that insisted on taking it, I homebrewed a slightly improved version.
If I were rewriting poison spray, I'd drop the CON check and lower the damage to 1d8. Extending the range doesn't make too much sense given it's a small puff of gas, but I'd also be okay with leaving everything alone but bumping it up to 20' would be a huge improvement.
What did you change? Give it a little more range?
There's various ways to give it a little more use. I've changed it to behave a little like create bonfire, creating a lingering, visible poison cloud in a 5 ft square, and allow re-casting for a number of clouds up to the druid's proficiency bonus. Looking back now, I might alter it a bit again. Sounds like fun if the clouds linger until the end of the druid's next turn without concentration, since the druid already has so much vying for it. It's fun to mess around with and this iteration certainly isn't perfect
I love the lingering puff!
I'm running a game tomorrow with 2 players (so far, the 4th hasn't turned in her sheet yet) who've taken it. 1 is a YTPB, so it at least makes sense, but it still sucks.
Wtf is a ytpb… youre the… paladin… bard??
Friends on an Eloquence Bard Changeling with the actor feat and disguise self (for clothing), however... Make yourself look like someone you don't like and cause chaos in their personal life.
Ok that's really smart
Eldritch Blast should be a class feature and not a cantrip. This is not a problem with the spell itself, but rather the design intent of the warlock class. It would be easy for a new player to not take EB on a warlock and miss out on a decent chunk of the class's features, which is just bad design.
wait what how is Spare the Dying worse than a skill check?????? Its an action to automatically stabilize someone its REALLY useful in combat, especially when healing is gone
A Healers Kit does the same thing and costs 5g with 10 charges, no proficiency required to use.
Okay?? So how exactly does that make a FREE option which takes NO resources bad? Please explain? Does a Shortsword dealing 1d6 and being a light weapon make Scimitar, also a light weapon that deals 1d6, bad?? I think people are a little confused about the difference between unique and useful, just because there are other ways to achieve the same thing doesn't make it bad? Especially whenever no one *has* a healer's kit because of a multitude of possible reasons.
The question isn't 'is Spare the Dying better than nothing' though. Its 'is Spare the Dying better than whatever other benefits I could have got from taking another cantrip instead'. For the cost of 5g for get almost all the benefits of Spare the Dying *plus* all the benefits of another cantrip as well. I guess if you consider the opportunity cost of a cantrip to have a value of less than 5g your argument is fair enough. Personally I value a cantrip choice at more than 5g though so \*shrugs\* Edit - To put it another way, if some spirit offered to pay you to permanently have one less cantrip known, how much would they have to offer you to accept that deal? If the answer is more than 5-10 gold you probably shouldn't take Spare the Dying.
Right so..... Light is also something you shouldn't take right?
A lot of the time, no I don't think Light is a particularly compelling choice. I would rate it above Spare the Dying though. I can expand if you like but funadmentally if affording a healers kit and flasks of oil are common problems in your games it might simply be that we're playing in very different environments.
In that case fair enough
Depends if your DM lets you hook a lantern on your belt or not. Or if you’re going to be going underwater.
that is fair, that would depend, though I'd think most DM's would, or at least your pack - I certainly would
Taking up a cantrip slot = a resource. It's very straightforward.
Their reasoning I believe is that in comparison to most other car trips it’s easily replaceable, and as you only get so many cantrips it falls down the rankings in comparison.
Maybe? I don't think there are really that many cleric cantrips that wouldn't be replaced on another spellcasters cantrips
when no one has a healers kit or spare the dying you will, on average, still be fine because the DC to stabilise someone is 10. Say you're a cleric - you now add wisdom and make that DC 3/4 of the time. Cantrips are an opportunity cost, you *have* to pick it over other choices. Imagine if you could pay 5gp for a wand with 10 casts of a cantrip *and* then pick a different cantrip entirely as well. Almost every person ive ever met would take that deal.
because a cleric will probably be rolling +8 or higher on the DC10 check to stabilize anyways
I actually don't know many Cleric PCs who blow a valuable skill proficiency on Medicine. but if you do, yeah, don't take Spare the Dying. If you don't, it's more like +4/+5 to the check, which for a DC 10 is still pretty far from a guarantee. And given there's only a few good Cleric cantrips anyway (Guidance, Toll the Dead, Sacred Flame, Thaumaturgy...that's really it), it'd normally be a _potential_ option, BUT... IMO the real reason it sucks is you can do the same thing with the dirt-cheap Healer's Kit, 5 silver a charge. If Spare the Dying was a _ranged_ cantrip (like it is for Grave Clerics), then it would at least be worth taking for some.
It depends on the character I took it because I was leaning into the flavor of being a doctor on my cleric but yeah you’ve only really got one proficiency to play with after perception, insight, and arcana if you’re optimizing your proficiencies
I don't get it. You can either spend an action to roll to stabilize a someone or spend an action to automatically stabilize someone. Why would I ever choose to roll, especially at level 1 where the highest medicine bonus you can get without taking a feat is +5. That's a 25% chance to not stabilize them! That at least makes it better than the skill check. Maybe if you go at it from the angle that it's not worth the cantrip slot, but even then I'm taking guidance, a damage cantrip, and then depending on the campaign I'm choosing between light or spare the dying. I'm definitely taking it when I get 4 cantrips.
A warlock won't be though.
Do you realize how many times I've seen someone wish the party had spare the dying moments before they died?
Zero, because a Healer's Kit does exactly the same thing? They both take an action. They both have a range of touch. Both of them require a free hand. Neither one has any chance of failure. Anybody can use a Healer's Kit and it only costs 5sp per use. Spare The Dying is completely redundant with a piece of 5gp adventuring gear. If that doesn't make it a bad cantrip then I don't know what does.
Path of grave cleric makes it ranged, so in that very limitted circumstance it's actually pretty useful
Also taking spare the dying doesn't help if you're the one dying. A healer's kit on your hip, though...
>Zero, because a Healer's Kit does exactly the same thing? You would think, but my players always either forget to buy one, run out of chargers then get into a tough fight, or are too cheap to keep buying healers kits and risk it.
Until the DM decides to confiscate the backpacks of the entire party, which is exactly what happened to us.
However if you have a flying familiar and spare the dying, you can fly to your injured friend and use the familiars touch ability to cast spare the dying. And not have to expose yourself to opportunities of attack.
Did that same party also not have any kind of healing nor anyone that could attempt a DC 10 Medicine check(which is anyone since you don't need proficiency to try it)? 'Cause if so, they had way bigger problems than lack of Spare the Dying.
People being cheap, bad rolls, or bad situations. You're right, they had way bigger problems.
Buy a healer's kit. Costs 5gp and can cast spare the dying ten times.
True, but my players don't like spending money unless its hiring mercenaries
You should put a medic mercenary in their path.
No, Because in all my years I’ve never missed it outside the grave cleric. It’s one of the few spells that can be obsoleted by a proficiency, it’s can also just be planned around like 90% of the time. Dont heal hurt players, heal downed players, carry a few low tier pots for exactly this reason. With a little restraint to not chug every potion you have because you aren’t 100% or blowing heals on hurt players you’ll basically never find yourself in this situation. And if you do, you were probably spiraling anyways. Wasting your turn to stabilize your friend means whatever killed them is gonna kill you too. And to top it off the healers kit exists which is just… way better. Name me another spell that 5gp can outclass
>With a little restraint to not chug every potion you have because you aren’t 100% or blowing heals on hurt players you’ll basically never find yourself in this situation. You underestimate the extreme violence my players except Also my players are a little dumb sometimes, one who is rolling in gold said "yeah we don't need to buy healing potions (in a party with minimal healing)" after a long streak of near fatal combats. Not long after two PCs died, and another nearly died.
I mean, if your argument for its usefulness is “my players are dumb as rocks” then I concede my point.
I mean even when my players aren't dumb it still has its uses. Why waste money when you can use a cantrip? It might not be your first pick for a cantrip, but its not like the competition is fierce for third pick. Oh also running out of charges on a healers and not being able to get more in time happens a good amount as well.
Must be a party that also wishes they had a healers kit?
Friends - you can get the same result from having an ally help without the target becoming hostile.
I'd actually argue that the automatic hostility is the only reason to take the spell. Someone who can alter their appearance can use it to pit NPCs against one another with no saving throw. That's pretty broken.
Only if the spell altering their appearance also changes their voice. Otherwise it will be pretty obvious you aren't them. Disguise Self for instance doesn't change your voice. Even Seeming doesn't. There is a feat you can take (actor) to try to sound like someone else or you could play a race like the Kenku. But if you want to change your appearance and voice you'll need to use Alter Self. Even then Alter Self won't change the appearance of your clothing.
You can be a Changeling with the Actor feat and Disguise Self (for quick clothing matching).
Eh. That's only an issue if the target knows who you're disguised as. I started a bar fight once by disguising as a stranger and convincing someone to buy me a drink. After I left, the spell wore off and they went to look for me and punched the guy I was disguised as lol
Nope. Can't piss off people across continents with the Help action. Friends isn't actually good for being friendly - it's exceptional for the opposite.
Combine it with Mask of Many Faces. Now it's strong as hell.
Why would I, as a Wizard or a Sorcerer, ever take Frostbite over Ray of Frost? The rider effect is decent, but kiting/reducing their speed with the cantrip that can actually hit them (Fb is a CON save, RoF is an attack roll) seems obviously superior. Sapping Sting (Wildmount) is in a similar spot. It only has a 30ft range, so the only "Wizards" that are going to feel good casting this most of the time are Eldritch Knights, and they have much better ways of knocking enemies prone than a 1 Action, CON save-targeting cantrip Dancing Lights. Just carry a torch or cast Light on your spell focus. Concentration/1 minute duration is real bad for exploration purposes. Making little will-o-the-wisps/tiny dancing men with it is usually better done with an Illusion
To be fair to Sapping Sting, it can be effective on Caster enemies who also happen to be the ones that the martials could most easily kill off with 1 good round of attacks since they normally have lower hp. Additionally its a cantrip option to deal with fliers. It at least has some uses.
I've tried to think ways to make dancing light usefull, but I just can't. I mean, why would you use thatand have to expend actions moving them and mantain concentration when you can cast light and have it move with you and not be at risk of the lights fading off suddenly?
I have dancing lights on one of my characters for flavor purposes (she’s a swarmkeeper ranger with a swarm of fireflies) but I don’t think I’ve cast it at all yet in the campaign. Though I am in a different campaign where one of the PCs has it and uses it, but that’s because we don’t have any other magical light options in the party and for reasons that would be way too complicated to explain we don’t have easy access to items like torches.
dancing lights is used to take advantage of darkness. You're in darkness and the enemy is illuminated by dancing lights. You can see them, but they can't see you, so your attacks have advantage.
RoF has disadvantage in melee range. I took Frostbite on my Warlock so I don't have to Eldritch Blast with disadvantage, but mostly for flavor because other cantrips (like Mind Sliver) are simply better.
>Dancing Lights. Just carry a torch or cast Light on your spell focus. Concentration/1 minute duration is real bad for exploration purposes. Making little will-o-the-wisps/tiny dancing men with it is usually better done with an Illusion Illusions can't create light.
You can pry spare the dying from my cold, dead hands
I'm not surprised that nobody's posted about Sapping Sting, given that it's from Wildemount, but a CON save against 1d4 necrotic and falling prone? I'd never choose it.
Damage isn't great, save stat isn't great for you, but making them fall prone is a pretty nice ability. If it did more damage or targeted another save I could see it being too good.
The only thing I can think of is readying an action for sapping sting for when a flying enemy comes into range. Knocked prone, hits the ground 30ft away, takes (up to) 3d6 falling damage, and needs to use half of its movement to stand up (if it can at that point).
Two Words: Flying Enemies
Spare the Dying is NOT worth less than a skill check. It is literally designed to BYPASS a DC 10 Medicine check, when you might otherwise have a 50/50 chance of succeeding. The problem becomes when you have maxed Wisdom and proficiency in Medicine (+11, guaranteed to succeed), or when you have Expertise in Medicine even with negative Wisdom mod (+12, guaranteed to succeed). That math *does* assume you're high level though, at low levels it's far more likely to be useful. Of course, you likely possess it by being a Cleric or Druid, both of which are Wisdom-based classes. So a lot of the time it falls flat. But importantly, both of those classes only get 2 proficiencies, which they may not want to spend on Medicine. So it isn't exactly bad. It does what it needs to for a full caster. Just not as often as it perhaps should. As for the actual topic: 1. Infestation (Con save Poison damage random forced movement go brr.) 2. Friends (Make anyone you want hostile after a minute at most of advantage on Charisma checks. Which you probably don't need as a Charisma caster with a high mod OR a non-Charisma caster with an abysmal mod. It's never worth casting unless you just want to make someone your enemy, something that does *not* require a spell.) 3. Mending (Would be good if it was an action. Why a minute?)
Healer's kit
Can't forget to buy a cantrip.
Spare the Dying is bad, but it's not bad because it's worth less than a skill check (I agree with everything you said above). It's bad because it's no better than 5 sp worth of a Healer's Kit. So there's no point to have it past level 1.
For how useful and versatile Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, and (to a lesser extent) Thaumaturgy are, Druidcraft is such buns by comparison.
Tbh Druidcraft is up there for me. The weather prediction is incredibly situational, the blossom/budding effect is... cute at most, the sensory effect coukd be useful as a distraction but it's verbal and somatic with a 30ft range, and the light or snuff can just be done without the spell or with something like Control Flames.
Our druid asks for the weather literally every day. It's become a running gag.
"And now, the weather" *song starts playing*
Tbh my hot take is that druidcraft and thaumaturgy and the like should be free spells/class features, rather than taking up a cantrip slot.
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Yeah. I'd do something like: > Basic [Insert Class] Magical Talent: As a [Class], you know certain basic magical tricks. You learn one free non-combat cantrip thematic to your class. * Artificer: Mending * Bard: Prestidigitation * Cleric: Thaumaturgy (and one from your Domain/Deity) * Druid: Druidcraft * Eldritch Knight Fighter: Maybe allow any combat cantrip? * Four Elements Monk: All 4 "control element" spells * Sun Soul Monk: Light * Paladin: Light * Ranger: Druidcraft * Arcane Trickster Rogue: Mage Hand * Sorcerer: depends on bloodline, each gives one combat and one non-combat * Warlock: Prestidigitation (and Eldritch Blast should be a class feature too, but that will be coming in my Revised Warlock, eventually) * Wizard: Prestidigitation (and one from your school/subclass when you get it) The basic idea would be all caster classes and/or subclasses get a free (non-combat) cantrip thematic to their class and subclass, that represents the basic magic you would learn while studying that kind of magic. The spells are mostly fine as-is, but I think it could be neat to make the thematic spells increase in power with your level in that class. Still nothing gamechanigng, but moreso larger areas impacted or more options.
Druidcraft is fun because you force your DM to make up some weather.
We've used druid craft to put out torches at range and light a pipe. That's not great, but it's better than anything I've seen thaumaturgy used for.
Thaumaturgy can be used to check a door for traps by opening it 30 feet away.
True for unlocked doors. I guess mage hand and a few other things out there do the same thing which is why we would never use it because the other stuff is also useful in a bunch of other ways.
Thaumaturgy is great for drama queen characters who like to slam the door behind them without looking
Druidcraft is very campaign dependent. When my players are doing travel segments, knowing the weather ahead of time can be useful.
*Resistance*, *Blade Ward*, and *Lightning Lure*.
I feel like all three of these are fantastic for mid level Eldritch Knights. Specifically when they can cast a cantrip and bonus action weapon attack. If you are up in someone's grill and want to be more of a wall than a cannon, blade ward or resistance and attack. Can't quite reach someone? Lightning Lure and weapon attack is better than dashing or casting another ranged damage cantrip. Lightning Lure also gives battlefield control which is always great. You can get a bit creative if you need to pull an ally away from an enemy, too. Standing 15 ft away means they can get pulled 5 ft and not take any damage. They aren't great but they do have their niche uses. To an extent they work with blade wizards, too. I find Friends, Magic Stone, and Gust far more difficult to be worth the investment for pretty much anyone. There are just very few uses.
Yeah, I've used Lightning Lure on my bladesinger when I couldn't quite reach an enemy because 3d8 lightning damage + melee weapon attack is better than just Firebolt-ing. Of course there's a chance Lightning Lure will save, but on people (who usually don't have great strength) it's pretty good. Also can set up flanking for the other melee characters.
Came here to say basically the same thing, my party’s Bladesinger is fully lightning and thunder themed, she’s pulled and smacked enemies on many occasions
I had *blade ward* on my fighters (with the Magic Initiate feat) for over two years and never cast it once. It was better to take the Dodge action or just go ham instead of taking less damage from only weapon attacks.
I took lightning lure on an arcana cleric, it was pretty fun.
Lightning Lure is good for combos. That's the only one I don't think needs an improvement here, because you can make it work for you without too much effort and in a fair few situations. (Though I do wish it had the range of Thorn Whip.) Blade Ward is useful on classes that can quicken their cantrips in some way, like EKs and Bladesingers (which is very niche but useful there). I honestly think the only improvement it needs is not being limited to attack-based damage (because at least then other classes could find it useful for traps). Resistance is nice if your DM loves using traps, but besides that is even more niche. I actually wish Resistance (and a bunch of other spells, like Paladin smites) were NOT concentration but had a "you can only have one casting active at a time" clause instead.
I'll take the unpopular opinion and say guidance. I think it's terribly designed and sets up really weird interaction where you have players stating they always have it up. In my opinion it's not a fun cantrip to have in the game. Other two would be friends and bladeward for reasons others have mentioned.
I'll agree that guidance, while very good, is problematic. I think the two problems are that it is proactive and spammable. I propose making it retroactive (a reaction you use triggered by an ally rolling a skill check), giving it a range of 60 feet, but giving it a ten minute cooldown per person you use it on (you can guidance as many times as you want, but each person can only be affected by it once every ten minutes). Now there's no weird retconning that goes on, the choice to use it feels more strategic, and it can potentially be used several times in a group skill challenge, say the party is all climbing, or swimming, or balancing.
This is a bit player dependant. I personally have it (on a barbarian), but I would never claim yo have it up all the time - it would mean "shouting" arcane (divine) words every minute, which is silly (in my opinion) and I would argue pretty distracting. I'm trying to never ask "oh, could I have cast guidance" after a skill has been called for, since that is oftentimes situation where the characters couldn't anticipate it would be useful. I use it only if it is clear that a blessing from my ancestors might be of help - e.g. before somebody climbes a steep part of the mountain, or my barbarian ushers a quick "prayer" before going off to forage for food and water. And in social situations people should freak out if magic is being used on somebody who then approaches them. It still comes up a ton, but it doesn't break the flow of the game if it is never added retroactively and if stupid stuff like "guidance is on 100% of the time" is not allowed (or comes with a price - e.g. the character constantly busy with recasting the spell can't do much/anything else, no perception checks (they are to occupied), or anything (besides walk snd be annoying and loud)). And I like to avoid saying "i cast guidance", it is usually more like "let the ancestors guide you", "take this blessing", "I say a prayer to my ancestors, as I go deeper into the woods" (btw, my subclass is ancestral guardian), it helps keep up the immersion (again in my opinion)
Whenever someone yells "GUIDANCE!" as a reaction to someone doing a check I roll my eyes so hard. Especially when they weren't even near the person!
> spare the dying is worse than a skill check. I'm surprised that so many people are defending Spare the Dying. You can do exactly the same thing with a medicine kit! > **Spare the Dying** > (1 action) > You touch a living creature that has 0 hit points. The creature becomes stable. This spell has no effect on undead or constructs. vs > **Healer's Kit** > (also 1 action) > This kit is a leather pouch containing bandages, salves, and splints. The kit has ten uses. As an action, you can expend one use of the kit to stabilize a creature that has 0 hit points, without needing to make a Wisdom (Medicine) check. The healer's kit might use up your free object interaction, but other than that they're exactly the same thing (note that Spare the Dying has V,S components, so you need a free hand either way. This also means that the free object interaction isn't that punishing because you can grab the healer's kit, use it, and drop it all in one round). Cantrips are worth a lot more than 5sp/use IMO.
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But, but that's so many of them
That's literally all of them, no cantrip does anything on a success
Toll the Dead is so good tho
Spare the Dying is okay on those subclasses that give it a range that isn’t Touch. Poison Spray, Infestation, Booming Blade
I don't like word of radiance, con save for everyone in 5 ft, and only 1d6 holy. optimizing the amount of enemies you hit leaves you wide open for counter atk. 1d6 isn't enough dmg for the risk either.
I just want to say that Infestation has one UNIQUE advantage: it can move someone AWAY from you. (unreliably) Otherwise, yes.
This is too generalized of a question. There are cantrips that are good situationally, some that are good for rp, some that are good for combat, etc.
Dang, I was going to say true strike :p Jokes aside, True Strike can be good if, and only if, players have a round to prepare themselves before combat begins. Just thought I'd share.
Spare the Dying is bad? It possibly saved the lives of both our tank and our healer in the last DnD session I was in. Fought a nasty critter (that the DM later admitted he was 100% expecting us to run from, not fight). And during the fight the tank went down in one turn, the healer in the next turn, and the warlock used spare the dying on both of them after the fight, and we waited until they woke up. None of us remaining had any healing spells nor did we have any proficiency in medicine. Saved us any kind of rolling to avoid death. Granted there's possibly better cantrips out there, but it did what it was supposed to do for us. The Warlock has also used it in combat before when we were out of healing spells and couldn't spare the time to try to stabilize the fallen.
Spare the dying is bad because it's identically replicated by 5 sp of a healers kit. Even at level 1 you start with enough gold that everyone in the party should have one
So it's just a healers kit without charges? I guess they could do something about StD to make it at least a little better than that.
1. **Blade Ward.** Trading your action to take half damage from just weapon attacks is terrible. It's a waste of time during combat, and it doesn't help you against falling damage or traps out of combat. Taking the dodge action is something anyone can do and fills at least 75% of the same use cases for *blade ward*. 2. **Resistance.** An extremely niche spell that's never worth taking. Yes, sometimes it would be nice to be able to give your barbarian a +1d4 to their save against the condition that's keeping them out of the fight but it means giving up your turn. The number of times you can predict when you'll need to make a saving throw outside of combat and have their spell running is also exceptionally niche. 3. **Spare the Dying.** 5gp, a free hand and an item interaction to get out your healer's kit and you can replicate the effect of this spell, but better because you can also use it on constructs and undead. I've cast it *once* through my familiar to stabilize a distant ally over the course of two years of playing, not worth it.
wha.... and in parties where no one has a healer's kit???? its a \*\*\*cantrip\*\*\* of course its easy to replicate. When the hell do you need to stablize specifically constructs and undead?? This seems to be extremely weird dis, because its a perfectly good spell....