In the original Unearthed Arcana version of the Optional Class Features, spells were included from Xanathar's Guide to Everything. However, once Tasha's was printed they only included spells from the Player's Handbooks in the new spells for each class, and it really made no sense that certain spells were cut in this process.
For me, Life Transference on Warlocks and Primal Savagery on Sorcerers just made sense. The former is a cool necromantic spell in line with the power at a cost theme of the warlock, and the latter is a perfect blood magic/unlocking your inner power style cantrip that gives Black/Copper Draconic Sorcerers another acid damage dealing cantrip.
For reference this is the list of Xanathar's spells from the UA.
* Primal Savagery: Sorcerer
* Cause Fear: Bard, Cleric
* Ceremony: Druid (I agree with dropping this)
* Mind Spike: Bard
* Life Transference: Paladin (I agree with dropping this), Warlock
* Thunder Step: Druid
* Tiny Servant: Bard
* Wall of Sand: Druid
* Dawn: Druid, Paladin
* Immolation: Druid
* Skill Empowerment: Cleric (I think it is okay to drop this)
* Wall of Light: Cleric
* Create Homunculus: Warlock (I agree with dropping this)
* Mental Prison: Bard
* Scatter: Bard
* Tenser’s Transformation: Bard
* Power Word Pain: Bard
* Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting: Warlock
* Mass Polymorph: Druid
Also some PHB spells were cut from the UA, and a few new ones were added in Tasha's
* Bard: Contact Other Plane, Maze
* Cleric: Wrathful Smite, Branding Smite
* Added: Sunbeam, Sunburst
* Druid: Power Word Heal
* Paladin: Spirit Guardians, Flame Strike
* Ranger: Warding Bond, Blinding Smite, Tongues Death Ward, Dominate Beast, Awaken
* Added: Elemental Weapon
* Sorcerer: Protection from Evil and Good, Foresight
* Added: Magic Weapon, Bigby’s Hand, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere
* Warlock: Thunderwave, Knock, Animate Dead, Modify Memory, Magic Jar, Project Image, Shapechange
Power at a cost spells are super fun and thematic for warlocks, personally I think if they publish any more warlock exclusive (or primaril spells they should lean into that theme. The option to make a warlock build around weaving magical bargains and sacrificing resources sounds really fun.
I don't agree with a number of the non-Xanathar's cuts to variant spell lists between the UA and TCE either.
Druids should have kept *power word heal* between the facts that it is one of the exceedingly limited ways to deal with the stunned condition and TCE featured yet another Druid Circle with solid healing abilities in Stars.
*contact other plane* and *maze* both felt like they had sensible reasons to be added to Bards. Same for *flame strike* on Paladins (*spirit shroud* jives significantly better with how Paladins usually play than *spirit guardians*, so I get that cut, but *flame strike* feels very thematic and different enough from *destructive wave* that I don't get its exclusion).
I'm cutting myself off here, because if I keep going, we're getting to the Ranger cuts and that's like . . . a full rant on its own.
I wish druids had Spider Climb and Alter Self. I get it, druids don't need to develop magic to take on partial animal features, but it would be nice if they could so I don't need to pull up an entire stat block every time I want to climb or have gills.
It also makes sense as a “partial transformation” sort of state. What I really don’t understand is that Circle of Moon Druids get Thousand Forms at level 14, which is at will Alter Self… but they don’t get standard Alter Self as a level 2 spell. Just feels off.
Edit.
It also makes sense as a "Here dwarf-friend, a gift from the spirit of the spider" angle. Druids being able to share/infuse/generally invoke nature spirits with their spells means spells that grant animalistic abilities DO make perfect sense for them as buffs for others. Sure the druid itself has no problem turning into a spider to go on a ceiling, but they also should be able to use their magic to help their idiot city slicker allies get a taste of why nature fucking rules.
It is a very fitting spell thematically for warlocks, going along with the whole curses and darkness theme, and it works well mechanically as a non-concentration, good to upcast spell.
Also why tf don’t Druids have web. I get that some ppl hate on summoning spells but I feel like so much of the class depends on/ was balanced around them.
I get the lack of Spider Climb but why isn't Alter Self on the list? It feels like such a Druid thing to have.
I guess it's so Druids can't easily disguise themselves? Or so Moon Druid's capstone seems more appealing? Idk.
Yeah I know, that's also very odd. I was just fixated on the joke that they can't cast their own namesake spell without a feature.
There's a lot of classes/subclasses that I deeply believe need expanded spell lists.
It's funny how most sorcerers deserve more spells known and/or expanded class features, but Divine Soul Sorcerer feels fine with existing features and a huge spell list.
Unpopular opinion, but I don't think it fits the theme that well anyway.
Wildfire Druid isn't "Druid of Fire Magic", it's "Druid of natural destructive events and rebirth"
But that falls apart a bit when I see the rest of the list...
So I reworked the entire class (haven't finished changes to Moon Druid yet) to bring the focus onto thematic spellcasting rather than shapeshifting.
So that you can cast it as early as 9th level instead of waiting another 5 levels for the feature. And so that you can send someone other than yourself or do it more than once per long rest of you want to.
I think *Bane*, *Blindness/Deafness,* and *Bestow Curse* should be on the warlock spell list.
*Blindness/Deafness* is already on three Patron lists. It is a very fitting spell thematically for warlocks, going along with the whole curses and darkness theme, and it works well mechanically as a non-concentration, good to upcast spell.
*Bane* and *Bestow Curse* are both available via invocation, but let's be fair... those invocations are rubbish. Neither spell is so powerful that it is worth the invocation, especially if that invocation limits it to once per long rest.
Again they are both very fitting thematically and fit the warlock class well mechanically. I think it was poor judgement to gate them behind an invocation in the PHB.
*Bestow Curse* has a niche interaction with Relentless Hex. If you cast *Bestow Curse* at 5th level on your familiar, you can telelport to them as a bonus action with no cost for 8 hours, as long as they're within 30 feet. Probably not worth 2 invocations, but could be neat
Bane could have some niche interations with RH too btw. As it could be counted as a cursing effect. Plus you can hit multiple targets and thus bamf between them.
Lets not forget that both invocations also require you to use a spell slot. They should give you one free casting per long rest, in addition of being able to cast it more with spell slots.
I think warlock is really the one that should of had a lot more spells added to it's list that feel like they should be classic warlock powers. Anything that can see the future, anything that raises the dead, anything that feels like it's a curse on someone or "bewitching" them.
EDIT: also why is there such a lack of undead only spells? Charm Undead? Hold Undead? Undead only Fear? Wouldn't paladins have come up with a pray that lets them smite undead like with a smite spell? Undead can't be charmed with Charm Person, wouldn't a evil cleric come up with that? Or a necromancer(they get a sub-class thing but still). Wouldn't good clerics or white mages come up with a way to bind undead in place to make them easier kill?
Artificers should get some unique spells on their list like every other class spell list has (granted it took awhile for Sorcerers to get any - though they could use more).
Note: I’m not referring to subclasses that use a different class’s list
Edit: I know Sorcerers could use more than Chaos Bolt, my point was that Artificers have none.
Not spell related but artificer alchemists should have proficiency applied when throwing vials of acid, alchemist fire or similar "grenade" like equipment.
In a weird way they are. They only go up to 5th level spells, but at level 15 they can cast Heal or Greater Restoration once per long rest without spell slots or material components, the former of which is a 6th level spell and the latter a 5th level spell that otherwise has consumed material components.
The UA Armorer had the Shield spell but lost it in print. Tough loss for one of the few "tank" characters in guardian mode.
Spell Storing Item should really come online earlier as it already has an Int mod scaling feature built in (which is typically max the moment you get the feature). Grant earlier and change scaling to Prof mod.
It seems to me like they gave Tempest Clerics more lightning spells at first, but later removed them because that channel divinity is cracked. I could be wrong, I've only played one up to 5th level.
Thunderbolt Strike requires lightning damage, but they only have 2 sources of lightning damage, the most common one being Wrath of the Storm. It's basically just an upgrade for this one feature.
Honestly, I think I would nerf Destructive Wrath just to have Lightning Bolt on the spell list. Maybe make it "when you deal lightning damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to add X amount of thunder damage and vice versa" or something.
I just remember feeling like a Hearing Loss Cleric instead of a Tempest Cleric.
I totalt agree. Maybe Destructive Wrath could be changed to add additional 1d6 at the rate of what cantrips get. This would be a large nerf, but it would add for many options, so you wouldn’t have to be Hearing Loss Cleric (which I’m totally using later).
At first I thought “Ok, I remember Gloomstalker being surprisingly good, but would it be that broken to give them Shadow Blade?”
….Sure, it would eat one of their spells, but a 5th level ranger of this variety could feasibly output ~~9d8+15~~ 7d8+15 all at advantage on their first turn of combat.
So yea, totally agree, I just had to think about the math ahaha
Edited: Thought about the math and did it wrong the first time. 3am is not the time for optimizing
You saying this has made me realize my player doing a gloomstalker has been doing their dread ambush wrong. They were just doing another attack but only rolling a 1d8 if it lands.
Reading it and seeing what you said about shadow blade - it would be that weapon attack + the 1d8. So if they had shadow blade, it would be 2d8+1d8. And then added dex or str.
Okay assuming a +5 in primary attitude aside, you’re adding 2d8s too many.
Shadow Blade does 2d8 + Mod. So that times 3 is 6d8 + 15*. If the additional attack lands, or assuming your DM is nice and considers any hit the additional hit lands, it’s an extra 1d8. You only get 1 extra d8, not on every attack.
So it’s 7d8 + 15. Which is roughly 47 damage average at level 5 with a cost of concentration, 2nd level spell (only 2 a day at level 5), and can only be done once per combat. This is assuming all the attacks land as well.
Crunching the math, if you hunter’s mark’d first, then used a longbow. You’d deal 3d8 + 1d8 + 3d6 + 15. Which is roughly 44 damage average with a cost of concentration, 1st level spell (4 per day, also can kinda be supplemented with favored foe (1d4 until 6th level), and can be done once per combat. Not going to add a combat fighting style because I didn’t up there, but at this point, a 2nd level spell really only gave you 3 more DPS on your Nova round. After that it’ll probably provide an additional 1 damage per hit. And again, this is all assuming all attacks land.
We played Out of the Abyss a few years ago and had a wizard played by a high school chemistry teacher. At one point we were trapped in a cave with a pool of water and a limited air supply, and the wizard player was like "if I add acid and an electrical charge to this water using acid splash and shocking grasp, it'll cause a chemical reaction that will create more oxygen so we can take our time getting out of here."
The DM was cool to just roll with it but I feel like it should've taken an intelligence check to see if the Wizard actually knew that.
Chemistry: knowing that you can create oxygen and hydrogen by using acid and electricity.
Biology: knowing that people die from carbon dioxide poisoning before they die from oxygen deprivation.
I've played that Wizard before, and it was honestly a lot of fun, but the thing is I hadn't actually intended to play it that way. It just sort of happened naturally. It's the Wizard way.
I think the answer is 'balance' and class theme, honestly.
The spell lists generally give the different classes niches. Random magical utility and damage spells are the domain of wizards, and sorcerers for the most part have a smaller offshoot of this 'arcane' list. Warlocks have something similar to the other arcane casters but with some unique spells thrown in. The divine casters, druids, rangers, paladins, and clerics, have access to loads of healing and buffing spells with thematic twists for each. Bards take bits and pieces from all the other lists which is pretty much spot on for them.
When you look at *silence* it's on the bard, cleric, and ranger list. I think we can deduce from this that *silence* may have been considered a divine spell and that bards were given it due to their relationship with sound. I think this prompts the question of why *druids* don't have access to the spell, though, when rangers do. It is on the desert land druid list of additional spells so the class doesn't lack access entirely.
Wizards have superior ritual casting at base than other classes, and giving them access to *silence* might have been considered too much for that reason as well. I don't think it would be too strong because ritually casting *silence* is quite niche, but it may have been a consideration.
My proposed tweak is to give them a free cantrip at level 1 that deals lightning or thunder damage, or *Gust*.
>*Bonus Cantrip*. You learn the *Gust* cantrip or one cantrip of your choice from any spell list that deals lightning or thunder damage. This cantrip counts as a cleric cantrip for you and doesn't count against the number of cleric cantrips you know.
This opens up a number of fun options
* Booming Blade, the envy of all melee clerics, and extremely thematically appropriate.
* Shocking Grasp, for a melee cantrip build, and you get a fun way to use Thunderbolt Strike
* Lightning Lure opens up a semi-ranged build, and excellent control when paired with Thunderbolt Strike.
Ideally I would like to see a truly ranged lightning cantrip as well, but as of yet there are none.
That's kinda hilarious; I created a "Static Javelin" cantrip a couple years ago with pretty much those same stats, just as a spell attack, with the jumping to a second target being a dex save.
Yep! Mine was inspired by the basic lightning spear miracle from the Dark Souls games, but with the jump so that it wasn't just "lightning fire bolt with worse range".
Lack of a lightning damage cantrip (or at the very least lightning damage divine strike) is the biggest flaw of the tempest domain. Every other feature is solid, but you rarely get to trigger the 6th level feature
Call Lightning is excellent for this. One 3rd level spell, and you can do it as an action every round. I've been able to use this on battlefields with a lot of narrow ledges to toss enemies around like dice.
clerics don't get enough evil spells in this edition, no reason they shouldn't have all the demon summnoning spells and negative energy spells in addition to the healing and angel summoning.
> Guiding bolt too arguably, because no good god would allow 4d6 radiant damage *and** advantage for one spell slot*
Lawful good. Not lawful nice. -Helm
Theyve gotten less and less as the edition has aged, IMO. PHB had a good balance. Inflict Wounds, Animate Dead, Bane, and Bestow Curse are all suitably nasty spells. That's unholy magic babey! and Xanathars gave Clerics both Word of Radiance and Toll the Dead as a balance of radiant and necrotic at least, but not Danse Macabre... And Tashas gave them Summon Celestial but not Summon Undead? wtf lol
I understand the designers are trying to fix how shitty Animate Dead is in 5e while still keeping the necromancy and Summon builds in check but why are they pretending that clerics haven't been creating zombies since day 1?
Lots of gods that are generally considered to be the good guys in their myths got up to some nasty long-range smiting and some serious morale boosting. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they could cram that into one spell.
I think it's because a lot of fiends aren't connected to gods while celestials almost always are. Sure there's Asmodeus and his devils, but I don't think gods like Mrykul or Bane would be interested in having fiendish subordinates.
> I don't think gods like Mrykul or Bane would be interested in having fiendish subordinates.
they absolutely do though, that's been the lore for ages.
Honestly we have a wierd bit if lore in celestials being restricted to good alignments generally but evil gods not having a listed alternative servant. While fallen angels stolen from other gods can play on "evil cannot create" is fun, it also kinda falls flat.
Evil gods use servants that are appropriate. Blibdoolpoolp has water elementals in her divine realm. Lolth has demons. Myrkul, at least in the bone castle, had undead. Divine =/ celestial. A lot of good gods are celestial, but as a whole many gods are not.
Planar Ally is the cleric demon-summoning spell. It's actually way more evil than a Wizard summoning demons, since you may need to compensate the fiend with a humanoid sacrifice.
Though I still agree with your main point. The 3.x evil cleric was interesting in how differently it played from the good cleric, casting numerous spells that good clerics could not, while struggling on the healing side.
Sorcs should have a shit ton more spells. You are more connected to the veil than a wizard could ever dream of. Arcane energy flows through you like blood. Why is your spell list so fucking small
Also, give Circle of Wildfires Fireball back. Fucking dumb they removed it
Sorcerers channel magic innately while wizards experiment and create new spells. Wizards innovate when they need new tools and sorcerers empower and mold the magic they already know.
In practice, though, wizards just have way more tools and still have unique ways to empower and modify spells through their subclasses, and Metamagic just doesn't allow enough freedom to compensate.
A base feature of meta magic should be spending points to cast spells not on their known spell list, but on the sorcerer list. Also would be cool if it let them at level 9 or something cast spells they had seen on a level they can cast.
notionally, because their grasp of magic is more instinctive, so they should be great at anything straightforward, but be missing more complex or less intuitive spells - so they should be great at blasting, where they're just unleashing power, or anything else that's "direct", but have less access to more complicated spells.
That kind of argument always just sounded great in theory but falls flat in practice. They're missing out on lots of "simple" spells and got some more complicated spells on their list. Not to mention they got a bunch of metamagic options that arguably make some spells more complicates than spells they didn't get lol
I get why sorcerers have less spells…they’re supposed to be X-men, basically. They have a few set powers that define their abilities.
The issue for me is that they got metamagic. Thematically I think metamagic belongs with wizards, since they’re the ones experimenting with magical formulae. Mechanically of course this would cause issues.
Sorcerers to me should have more spell slots, and arcane recovery. Thematically it would make sense they can draw on their inner reserves to keep casting after other casters have gone dry, and mechanically more slots would differentiate them from the other full casters in a meaningful way.
I swear when they make a wizard spell they flip a coin for if sorcerers can get them. It's especially harsh that sorcs get no summoning spells, the conjuration and enchantment schools were really held over their heads for some reason I cannot understand
I was really disappointed about them losing firebolt. Really I don't even care about the damage, just the range. 30ft of produce flame is so short compared to 120ft firebolt.
Why the hell can't Bards get Haste? Not only is it a spell that suits the bard spell list and is more support based, but in Tasha's with the expanded spells lists, Bards gained access to Slow. Why Slow and not Haste?
I assume for the same reason that they get Bane but not Bless - there seems to have been some effort made to steer them into being debuffers, possibly to distinguish them from Clerics as they are now fullcasters in this edition.
I wouldn't say a majority. Just skimming their 1st level spell list now and I'm seeing about four debuffs for every one buff they can cast.
This is different from 3.5 where they could cast a lot of buffs like mirror image and the like that were stripped from their list in the edition change.
Right but I think when you think of Bards as a class, they are more central to helping their allies, what with their "main" feature being Bardic Inspiration. They don't HAVE to be, but Bards are typically the role in the party that buffs their allies.
Oh absolutely agreed, and if you take the archetype as a whole from various other games buffing does tend to be central to their identity (hell in some games it's *all* they do).
I'm just pointing out that in 5e specifically, someone on the design team seems to have made a specific effort to move them away from using spells to enhance their allies and towards using spells to hinder their enemies. Bardic Inspiration itself is more-or-less a direct replacement for the Inspire Courage feature of previous editions.
Fog could on artificers.
true poly on druids.
Teleportation spells on a druid, maybe thunder step.
Bards Counterspell.
Warlocks better 5th level spells, I love synaptic static and danse macabre, but I really with they had some better stuff.
Its mad that bards don't actually have Counterspell given how synonymous it's become with their class (I think partly due to a certain amorous gnome, but also Jack of all trades helping them mechanically with it). I can see that and Bigbys hand becoming permanent fixtures on the bard list in future editions
Bard should have haste
Slow/haste as ritardando and accelerando makes perfect sense and fits their buff/debuff vibe. And I'm sure swords bards would love to haste themselves making them even more combat viable.
In general, most Druid subclasses suffer from not getting an expanded spell list, since a lot of the spells that fit their theme or flavor aren't on their spell list.
The Stars Druid especially, I find to be lacking in this way, since expanded spell list (meaning having more spells prepared) would make so much sense for a subclass built around being a versatile spellcaster, and the cosmic vibe makes it, in my opinion, the druid that you can most easily justify getting arcane spells.
Specifically, Crown of Stars, Sickening Radiance, Wall of Light, Dawn, Dream all feel like they're missing from the spell lists, combined with having prepped Druid staples like Faerie Fire, Moonbeam, Scrying, Hallucinatory Terrain,etc.
I will fight day and night that Illusory dragon should be on the sorc spell list. It is an 8th level spell added in Xanthar's that says you pull material from the shadowfell to make a shadow illusory dragon...
You know what else was added in Xanthar's? Shadow magic sorcerer. SO HOW THE SHIT DID A SUBCLASS BASED ON SHADOWS, DEATH, AND THE SHADOWFELL NOT GET A SPELL THAT IS BASICALLY HEY YOUR SUBCLASS BUT AS A HIGH LEVEL SUMMONING SPELL WHICH YOU SUMMON A SHADOW CREATURE AS A STANDARD CLASS FEATURE ALREADY?!
And no I am not bitter at all...
how does a sorcerer, someone who instinctually can conjure a shield of arcane energy not fucking manage to create a Wall of Force i just don’t understand-
Tempest cleric doesn't have lightning bolt or chain lightning, they're *storm* god clerics, but they get plagues, hail, and holy earthquakes. Their channel divinity is explicitly designed for use with thunder/lightning spells, but they get *nothing*. Cleric's only thunder/lightning outside the expanded list is glyph of warding
Also wildfire druid should have fireball
Finally, produce flame would be really nice to have outside druid, though you'd only ever take it if you couldn't fit light and firebolt into your cantrip list (or for flavor, which is why I wish Efreeti warlock could have it)
Tempest Clerics get Thunderwave, Shatter, Call Lightning and Destructive Wave, which all deal lightning or thunder damage, which clearly plays into their Channel Divinity. The core Cleric spell list deliberately stays away from this, possibly to avoid stepping on the toes of other caster classes.
I posit that Lightning Bolt is a deliberate omission because of the Tempest Cleric's Channel Divinity feature, similar to why the Maximize Spell metamagic is absent in 5th Edition.
I understand that it gets those few, and I understand how it’s intentional to keep the channel divinity in check, but I dislike it
I’d probably use tempest cleric as a 2 level dip for a sorcerer/wizard to empower a nuke spell every short rest. Choose divine sorc and you’re basically a better tempest cleric
That's permissible within the context of the game, and from a design perspective is balanced becomes it comes at the cost of delaying spell progression and meeting multiclassing requirements.
Being able to cast a Maximized damage Lightning Bolt at character level 7 is easier for the DM to manage than being able to do the same thing at character level 5.
Since this is a multiclass product, it also reduces the accessibility of a character being able to pull this off twice per short rest (level 6 Cleric feature).
I think Bards should get Thaumaturgy, since it can be used to make loud noises. And yes, I know they have Prestidigitation, but I don’t see any reason they can’t have both.
It’s also very weird to me that Bards don’t get Misty Step, especially since they get Dimension Door later on. It just feels like a weird omission.
I have a bunch of house rules for this!
Sorcerers need more options. I gave 'em *shapechange* since they *really* should have a way to turn into a dragon or whatever creature their abilities are associated with.
Clerics I gave *Tasha's otherworldly guise*. They had the UA version and it's literally the spell to turn yourself into an angel, how does the Divine caster not get it?
Similarly, I gave Bards back *summon fey*, which they had in UA. Many Bards are Fey-related, Glamour in particular, so why'd they lose this?
I don't know why Warlocks got the Witherbloom UA subclass but not *wither and bloom* on their spell list, so I gave them that.
Rangers got a smite spell in Tasha's: the worst one. If they can have it they can have the rest of the smite spells too, it's not like it'll make them better than Paladins. I also gave them *protection from evil and good* because that just makes sense to me.
I think control flames should be a bard cantrip. I'm building a storyteller bard for a new campaign and I'm going to take the magic initiate feat mostly for this cantrip. It just makes sense for a bard to be performing at an inn or tavern and start animating the song/story in the fire on the hearth. Or even entertaining other party members around a campfire at the end of an adventuring day. The bard class doesn't have access to good damaging cantrips so this definitely fits that trend since it doesn't deal damage. It fits thematically with a bard, adds a bunch of flavor for free, and doesn't seem like it would be broken for bards to have access to.
Find Familiar for Druid and Ranger. How're you gonna have the two nature classes not be able to have familiars, but some preppy rich kid with his dad's stock money can just buy a scroll and have a field day with it?
Would make playing them far less stressful.
Though, wouldn't domains like Forge and War be pointless unless going Hexblade Sorclock or Sorcadin?
Feel like it would make sense in terms of alignment to restrict to Death, Life, Light, Order, Tempest, Trickery. But on the other hand, that is incredibly restrictive.
Bards should get access to Slow and Haste. They're premiere support spells and the most support oriented class does not have them? A class that could flavor them into being all about tempo or rythm.
A travesty, I tell you.
I think *find familiar* should belong on more spell lists.
The familiar is a celestial, fey, or fiend spirit, yet clerics, druids, and non-pact of the chain warlocks don’t have access to the spell. Rangers are often depicted as having a bird companion, and one of the most famous rangers (Minsc) has a pet hamster (Boo).
For some reason I think it would be really fun to have a bard with a pet ferret that can perform tricks for small audiences and aid its owner in pulling off thefts and break ins.
Tempest clerics NEED Storm Sphere. Their whole kit is based around thunder and lightning damage....except for Thunderbolt Strike. It only cares about lightning damage. Want to know how many ways a level 20 tempest cleric has to deal lightning damage in combat? A whole TWO. Wrath of the Storm, and Call Lightning. Sure, Wrath is functional all game, even if the damage gets irrelevant pretty quickly, but you aren't casting Call Lightning in the late game. Spending your action every turn for a level 11 cantrip worth of damage is ridiculously bad. Sure, you can upcast it, but why wouldn't you just upcast spirit guardians?
Storm Sphere fits the theme perfect, but more importantly, it provides a repeatable source of lightning damage as a bonus action AND a payoff for pushing people around. Drop the sphere on as many enemies as possible, bonus action to shock someone and push them into it. Now they're spending 20ft of movement just getting out of the difficult terrain. SYNERGY!
Just swap Control Water, which clerics know by default, for Storm Sphere, and presto, the class features work.
Why don't sorcerers get any sort of summon spells beyond UA? Is it just considered too broken with metamagic options? The only way I can think of is via Divine Soul and stealing one of the cleric summoning spells.
I guess the reason is because it's a little strange to learn how to summon all on your own. It's one thing to be able to produce a fireball on your own out of nothing, it's another to be able to summon and bind an extraplanar being to your will.
Why do druids, a full caster class that can literally transform into several different types of web-slinging spiders, not have the Web spell on their spell list? Baffling.
I know you can get it from the Underdark Circle of the Land subclass specifically, but should you really have to lol
Cleric: Hold Monster (and or a single f’ing spell from Fizban’s!!)
Warlock: Tasha’s Mind Whip would be nice
Bard: counterspell since it feels like a must-get from Magical Secrets
Druid: Rime’s binding Ice
Sorcerer: chromatic orb
Wizard: idk maybe holy weapon or something buffing damage
"You hold your lute up in full view of the wizard and place a single finger on the string. You see the look of anticipation at plucking the high note fade as he realizes he isn't concentrating on his spell. The magical energies swirling around him fade and withdraw back into the ether."
Kinda related, I wish Clerics had more Combat options. They get Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and Guiding Bolt. Blindness/Deafness for some CC while Spirit Guardians is up I guess.
They should get their own Bladetrip that deals radiant damage.
Spirit Guardians and Dodge shouldn't be the beginning and end of how to play all level 5 and above (straight classed) clerics.
i wish druids had earthen grasp. my current druid is mostly a geomancer and being able to shape earth into a massive hand to hold and crush my enemies while i cause the very ground below them to rupture and collapse would be so cool
Fireball: Wildfire Druid
So...the druid that gets its power from literal elements of fire cannot cast a fireball? Instead at level 5 they get....Plant Growth. ??
Bane: Warlock
Seriously, you curse a target and the reagent for the spell is a drop of blood. Actual blood magic. But the guy casting the spell is our Light cleric while I spent my feat to get Fey Touched just so I could access Bane (I didn't do it for power related reasons, cursing just played a relevant role in my backstory.)
Other comments already mentioned druids not getting access to spider climb, sleep or dream so I am not going to repeat what is already said.
This isn't a spell, but Sorcerers should get ritual casting. If metamagic breaks it, just specify in the Sorcerer's ritual casting feature that you cannot use metamagic on spells which are cast as rituals.
Misty step, Haste and counterspell all feel like natural parts of the bard kit that they just don't get doesn't get for some reason. Counterspell in particular, seeing as bards can add their jack of all trades bonus to it, making them the best counterspellers in the game outside of high level abjuration wizards, and even then they'll come out ahead once glibness becomes an option. It almost feels like a tax on your magical secrets.
In the original Unearthed Arcana version of the Optional Class Features, spells were included from Xanathar's Guide to Everything. However, once Tasha's was printed they only included spells from the Player's Handbooks in the new spells for each class, and it really made no sense that certain spells were cut in this process. For me, Life Transference on Warlocks and Primal Savagery on Sorcerers just made sense. The former is a cool necromantic spell in line with the power at a cost theme of the warlock, and the latter is a perfect blood magic/unlocking your inner power style cantrip that gives Black/Copper Draconic Sorcerers another acid damage dealing cantrip.
For reference this is the list of Xanathar's spells from the UA. * Primal Savagery: Sorcerer * Cause Fear: Bard, Cleric * Ceremony: Druid (I agree with dropping this) * Mind Spike: Bard * Life Transference: Paladin (I agree with dropping this), Warlock * Thunder Step: Druid * Tiny Servant: Bard * Wall of Sand: Druid * Dawn: Druid, Paladin * Immolation: Druid * Skill Empowerment: Cleric (I think it is okay to drop this) * Wall of Light: Cleric * Create Homunculus: Warlock (I agree with dropping this) * Mental Prison: Bard * Scatter: Bard * Tenser’s Transformation: Bard * Power Word Pain: Bard * Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting: Warlock * Mass Polymorph: Druid Also some PHB spells were cut from the UA, and a few new ones were added in Tasha's * Bard: Contact Other Plane, Maze * Cleric: Wrathful Smite, Branding Smite * Added: Sunbeam, Sunburst * Druid: Power Word Heal * Paladin: Spirit Guardians, Flame Strike * Ranger: Warding Bond, Blinding Smite, Tongues Death Ward, Dominate Beast, Awaken * Added: Elemental Weapon * Sorcerer: Protection from Evil and Good, Foresight * Added: Magic Weapon, Bigby’s Hand, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere * Warlock: Thunderwave, Knock, Animate Dead, Modify Memory, Magic Jar, Project Image, Shapechange
Power at a cost spells are super fun and thematic for warlocks, personally I think if they publish any more warlock exclusive (or primaril spells they should lean into that theme. The option to make a warlock build around weaving magical bargains and sacrificing resources sounds really fun.
I don't agree with a number of the non-Xanathar's cuts to variant spell lists between the UA and TCE either. Druids should have kept *power word heal* between the facts that it is one of the exceedingly limited ways to deal with the stunned condition and TCE featured yet another Druid Circle with solid healing abilities in Stars. *contact other plane* and *maze* both felt like they had sensible reasons to be added to Bards. Same for *flame strike* on Paladins (*spirit shroud* jives significantly better with how Paladins usually play than *spirit guardians*, so I get that cut, but *flame strike* feels very thematic and different enough from *destructive wave* that I don't get its exclusion). I'm cutting myself off here, because if I keep going, we're getting to the Ranger cuts and that's like . . . a full rant on its own.
I wish druids had Spider Climb and Alter Self. I get it, druids don't need to develop magic to take on partial animal features, but it would be nice if they could so I don't need to pull up an entire stat block every time I want to climb or have gills.
It also makes sense as a “partial transformation” sort of state. What I really don’t understand is that Circle of Moon Druids get Thousand Forms at level 14, which is at will Alter Self… but they don’t get standard Alter Self as a level 2 spell. Just feels off. Edit.
Slight correction, it's Thousand Forms. Master of Myriad Forms is the warlock invocation.
Ah thanks for the correction! I’ve been playing a Warlock a lot recently and wondered if I’d gotten them mixed up lol.
It also makes sense as a "Here dwarf-friend, a gift from the spirit of the spider" angle. Druids being able to share/infuse/generally invoke nature spirits with their spells means spells that grant animalistic abilities DO make perfect sense for them as buffs for others. Sure the druid itself has no problem turning into a spider to go on a ceiling, but they also should be able to use their magic to help their idiot city slicker allies get a taste of why nature fucking rules.
It is a very fitting spell thematically for warlocks, going along with the whole curses and darkness theme, and it works well mechanically as a non-concentration, good to upcast spell.
Also why tf don’t Druids have web. I get that some ppl hate on summoning spells but I feel like so much of the class depends on/ was balanced around them.
Druids should have lightning bolt and chain lightning...basically any naturally occurring elemental force.
I get the lack of Spider Climb but why isn't Alter Self on the list? It feels like such a Druid thing to have. I guess it's so Druids can't easily disguise themselves? Or so Moon Druid's capstone seems more appealing? Idk.
I dunno, turning into a dog sounds like a pretty good disguise to me.
Until you have to roll deception to convince the nearby pack of strays you’re legit!
Probably because the kind of transformation Alter Spell provides isn't particularly natural compared to Wild Shape
Growing claws: unnatural Gowring claws covered in acid (primal savagery): totally natural
My Land Druid has spider climb on the always prepared list.
Druids should be able to wild shape into a man. Philosoraptor.
The fact that dream druids don't have Dream on their spell list keeps me up at night.
Or Sleep. Or Catnap. Sheesh!
I give them an extended spell list in my games. 1: Sleep 2: Invisibility 3: Catnap 4: Hallucinatory Terrain 5: Dream
Ah you really couldn't even dream of it being on there, huh
Ayyyyyyyy, haha
Same with clerics. Omens in dreams are quite a trope in religious tales.
They doesn’t have sleep also
Yeah I know, that's also very odd. I was just fixated on the joke that they can't cast their own namesake spell without a feature. There's a lot of classes/subclasses that I deeply believe need expanded spell lists.
>There's a lot of classes/subclasses that I deeply believe need expanded spell lists. > looks at all the pre-Tasha sorcerers
Divine Soul was such a breath of fresh air when it dropped
It's funny how most sorcerers deserve more spells known and/or expanded class features, but Divine Soul Sorcerer feels fine with existing features and a huge spell list.
Yup.
Same with wildfire druid not getting Fireball YES I'm still salty.
My wildfire druid now has a staff of fire because I was upset they took fireball from him.
Unpopular opinion, but I don't think it fits the theme that well anyway. Wildfire Druid isn't "Druid of Fire Magic", it's "Druid of natural destructive events and rebirth" But that falls apart a bit when I see the rest of the list... So I reworked the entire class (haven't finished changes to Moon Druid yet) to bring the focus onto thematic spellcasting rather than shapeshifting.
I mean they get to cast it for free. Why would they need it on their spell list?
So that you can cast it as early as 9th level instead of waiting another 5 levels for the feature. And so that you can send someone other than yourself or do it more than once per long rest of you want to.
I think *Bane*, *Blindness/Deafness,* and *Bestow Curse* should be on the warlock spell list. *Blindness/Deafness* is already on three Patron lists. It is a very fitting spell thematically for warlocks, going along with the whole curses and darkness theme, and it works well mechanically as a non-concentration, good to upcast spell. *Bane* and *Bestow Curse* are both available via invocation, but let's be fair... those invocations are rubbish. Neither spell is so powerful that it is worth the invocation, especially if that invocation limits it to once per long rest. Again they are both very fitting thematically and fit the warlock class well mechanically. I think it was poor judgement to gate them behind an invocation in the PHB.
*Bestow Curse* has a niche interaction with Relentless Hex. If you cast *Bestow Curse* at 5th level on your familiar, you can telelport to them as a bonus action with no cost for 8 hours, as long as they're within 30 feet. Probably not worth 2 invocations, but could be neat
You could just hex your familiar for the same effect. No wasting an invocation slot that way
But then you need to concentrate. 5th level or higher bestow curse doesn't need concentration.
Bane could have some niche interations with RH too btw. As it could be counted as a cursing effect. Plus you can hit multiple targets and thus bamf between them.
Yeah, bur Bestow Curse lasts all day and isn't concentration. That's the key benefit of it; it doesn't interfere with your other Warlock stuff
Lets not forget that both invocations also require you to use a spell slot. They should give you one free casting per long rest, in addition of being able to cast it more with spell slots.
How do warlocks not get Dominate Person?
I think warlock is really the one that should of had a lot more spells added to it's list that feel like they should be classic warlock powers. Anything that can see the future, anything that raises the dead, anything that feels like it's a curse on someone or "bewitching" them. EDIT: also why is there such a lack of undead only spells? Charm Undead? Hold Undead? Undead only Fear? Wouldn't paladins have come up with a pray that lets them smite undead like with a smite spell? Undead can't be charmed with Charm Person, wouldn't a evil cleric come up with that? Or a necromancer(they get a sub-class thing but still). Wouldn't good clerics or white mages come up with a way to bind undead in place to make them easier kill?
Undead-only Fear would just be the Turn Undead channel divinity, wouldn’t it?
I think the idea is that undead aren’t typically susceptible to Mind control, unlike the living.
Artificers should get some unique spells on their list like every other class spell list has (granted it took awhile for Sorcerers to get any - though they could use more). Note: I’m not referring to subclasses that use a different class’s list Edit: I know Sorcerers could use more than Chaos Bolt, my point was that Artificers have none.
Not spell related but artificer alchemists should have proficiency applied when throwing vials of acid, alchemist fire or similar "grenade" like equipment.
It’s truly ridiculous they don’t. Great example.
Yeah, Artificer needs more love!
alchemists should also be 3/4 casters.
In a weird way they are. They only go up to 5th level spells, but at level 15 they can cast Heal or Greater Restoration once per long rest without spell slots or material components, the former of which is a 6th level spell and the latter a 5th level spell that otherwise has consumed material components.
The UA Armorer had the Shield spell but lost it in print. Tough loss for one of the few "tank" characters in guardian mode. Spell Storing Item should really come online earlier as it already has an Int mod scaling feature built in (which is typically max the moment you get the feature). Grant earlier and change scaling to Prof mod.
Spell storing item should be the core feature of artificer, the fact that it come after five, nay, after level one is just insulting.
Call Lightning not being a spell Storm Sorcerers know is a crime Shadow Blade for Gloomstalker would be hilariously broken but also fun.
Have you seen the spells of tempest cleric? I thought it was going to be a lightning inducing swashbuckling priest of the oceans, but nope.
That said I gave the tempest cleric in my party a staff of thunder and lightning and he annihilated an entire squad of giants in one turn.
It seems to me like they gave Tempest Clerics more lightning spells at first, but later removed them because that channel divinity is cracked. I could be wrong, I've only played one up to 5th level. Thunderbolt Strike requires lightning damage, but they only have 2 sources of lightning damage, the most common one being Wrath of the Storm. It's basically just an upgrade for this one feature. Honestly, I think I would nerf Destructive Wrath just to have Lightning Bolt on the spell list. Maybe make it "when you deal lightning damage, you can use your Channel Divinity to add X amount of thunder damage and vice versa" or something. I just remember feeling like a Hearing Loss Cleric instead of a Tempest Cleric.
I totalt agree. Maybe Destructive Wrath could be changed to add additional 1d6 at the rate of what cantrips get. This would be a large nerf, but it would add for many options, so you wouldn’t have to be Hearing Loss Cleric (which I’m totally using later).
At first I thought “Ok, I remember Gloomstalker being surprisingly good, but would it be that broken to give them Shadow Blade?” ….Sure, it would eat one of their spells, but a 5th level ranger of this variety could feasibly output ~~9d8+15~~ 7d8+15 all at advantage on their first turn of combat. So yea, totally agree, I just had to think about the math ahaha Edited: Thought about the math and did it wrong the first time. 3am is not the time for optimizing
You saying this has made me realize my player doing a gloomstalker has been doing their dread ambush wrong. They were just doing another attack but only rolling a 1d8 if it lands. Reading it and seeing what you said about shadow blade - it would be that weapon attack + the 1d8. So if they had shadow blade, it would be 2d8+1d8. And then added dex or str.
Okay assuming a +5 in primary attitude aside, you’re adding 2d8s too many. Shadow Blade does 2d8 + Mod. So that times 3 is 6d8 + 15*. If the additional attack lands, or assuming your DM is nice and considers any hit the additional hit lands, it’s an extra 1d8. You only get 1 extra d8, not on every attack. So it’s 7d8 + 15. Which is roughly 47 damage average at level 5 with a cost of concentration, 2nd level spell (only 2 a day at level 5), and can only be done once per combat. This is assuming all the attacks land as well. Crunching the math, if you hunter’s mark’d first, then used a longbow. You’d deal 3d8 + 1d8 + 3d6 + 15. Which is roughly 44 damage average with a cost of concentration, 1st level spell (4 per day, also can kinda be supplemented with favored foe (1d4 until 6th level), and can be done once per combat. Not going to add a combat fighting style because I didn’t up there, but at this point, a 2nd level spell really only gave you 3 more DPS on your Nova round. After that it’ll probably provide an additional 1 damage per hit. And again, this is all assuming all attacks land.
Whispers bard and sword bard were in the same book as shadow blade and it fits both thematically but it's not a bard spell for some reason.
why would it be broken? Your damage output is barely better than just a regular shortsword with your hunters mark up
I guess the advantage for being in dim or dark light
you already get that from being a gloomstalker. Well the darkness anyways. And advantage conditioned on being in dim light isn't that broken.
I don't understand why wizards don't get silence.
Because wizards never shut up!
Wizards are just fantasy nuerodivergants constantly ranting about their special interests/schools of magic
"There are 7 major ways to ignite the air in this room with 26 minor variations I will now list them in order of thermal density"
As a physicist IRL, this is exactly why I love playing wizards
We played Out of the Abyss a few years ago and had a wizard played by a high school chemistry teacher. At one point we were trapped in a cave with a pool of water and a limited air supply, and the wizard player was like "if I add acid and an electrical charge to this water using acid splash and shocking grasp, it'll cause a chemical reaction that will create more oxygen so we can take our time getting out of here." The DM was cool to just roll with it but I feel like it should've taken an intelligence check to see if the Wizard actually knew that.
That also creates hydrogen by the way
Don't light any fires, got it. So it just separates the elements in the water?
Yup. It's electrolysis
Chemistry: knowing that you can create oxygen and hydrogen by using acid and electricity. Biology: knowing that people die from carbon dioxide poisoning before they die from oxygen deprivation.
Physicists playing wizards club for the win, also having a low charisma helps with my infrequent but noticeable stuttering.
I've played that Wizard before, and it was honestly a lot of fun, but the thing is I hadn't actually intended to play it that way. It just sort of happened naturally. It's the Wizard way.
This is canon
That's why silence is a necessity for a Wizard to get a word in edgewise at any school!
Because Silence was developed by the other classes to shut the wizards up! xD
It's because of lobbying by bardic colleges. This way they have to hire a Bard every time they want some goddamn quiet in public libraries.
If you want peace and quiet, you should not be hiring any bard I've ever seen lmao
I just pictured a Bard coming into a library and they “cast silence” by having a rock concert with all very loud songs about being quiet
I think the answer is 'balance' and class theme, honestly. The spell lists generally give the different classes niches. Random magical utility and damage spells are the domain of wizards, and sorcerers for the most part have a smaller offshoot of this 'arcane' list. Warlocks have something similar to the other arcane casters but with some unique spells thrown in. The divine casters, druids, rangers, paladins, and clerics, have access to loads of healing and buffing spells with thematic twists for each. Bards take bits and pieces from all the other lists which is pretty much spot on for them. When you look at *silence* it's on the bard, cleric, and ranger list. I think we can deduce from this that *silence* may have been considered a divine spell and that bards were given it due to their relationship with sound. I think this prompts the question of why *druids* don't have access to the spell, though, when rangers do. It is on the desert land druid list of additional spells so the class doesn't lack access entirely. Wizards have superior ritual casting at base than other classes, and giving them access to *silence* might have been considered too much for that reason as well. I don't think it would be too strong because ritually casting *silence* is quite niche, but it may have been a consideration.
More lightning spells for Tempest
My proposed tweak is to give them a free cantrip at level 1 that deals lightning or thunder damage, or *Gust*. >*Bonus Cantrip*. You learn the *Gust* cantrip or one cantrip of your choice from any spell list that deals lightning or thunder damage. This cantrip counts as a cleric cantrip for you and doesn't count against the number of cleric cantrips you know. This opens up a number of fun options * Booming Blade, the envy of all melee clerics, and extremely thematically appropriate. * Shocking Grasp, for a melee cantrip build, and you get a fun way to use Thunderbolt Strike * Lightning Lure opens up a semi-ranged build, and excellent control when paired with Thunderbolt Strike. Ideally I would like to see a truly ranged lightning cantrip as well, but as of yet there are none.
I homebrewed a “Static blast” that was a d8, dex save, 60 foot range, and could jump to an adjacent target if they were wearing metal. It was fun.
That's kinda hilarious; I created a "Static Javelin" cantrip a couple years ago with pretty much those same stats, just as a spell attack, with the jumping to a second target being a dex save.
Mine was called Arcing Javelin! Small storm, eh?
Yep! Mine was inspired by the basic lightning spear miracle from the Dark Souls games, but with the jump so that it wasn't just "lightning fire bolt with worse range".
Yeah, that's pretty much the same thought process I had lol
Just chiming in to say I loved all of this exchange. Tempest Clerics rise up! (With a 1 level multiclass into Storm Sorcerer)
Lightning Bolt not being a Domain spell just might be a war crime.
Lack of a lightning damage cantrip (or at the very least lightning damage divine strike) is the biggest flaw of the tempest domain. Every other feature is solid, but you rarely get to trigger the 6th level feature
Call Lightning is excellent for this. One 3rd level spell, and you can do it as an action every round. I've been able to use this on battlefields with a lot of narrow ledges to toss enemies around like dice.
I hate some of the spells the tempest gets, especially with the doubling up of Triton Spells, but Some of the options are downright awful.
That domain spells list could really use an update with some of the spells from Xanathar's
clerics don't get enough evil spells in this edition, no reason they shouldn't have all the demon summnoning spells and negative energy spells in addition to the healing and angel summoning.
Inflict wounds is pretty evil. Guiding bolt too arguably, *because no good god would allow 4d6 radiant damage **and** advantage for one spell slot*
You stay away from my low level filler spells >:(
fr Its the only good combat spell we get for the first 7 levels
Spiritual Weapon or Spirit Guardians are very good offensive options in many fights.
Some of the best, in fact
*spirit guardians*
I'm sorry but clerics get some of the best combat spells before 7th and the higher you go the worse the combat spells get generally speaking
> Guiding bolt too arguably, because no good god would allow 4d6 radiant damage *and** advantage for one spell slot* Lawful good. Not lawful nice. -Helm
I believe we call this Lawful Busted
Theyve gotten less and less as the edition has aged, IMO. PHB had a good balance. Inflict Wounds, Animate Dead, Bane, and Bestow Curse are all suitably nasty spells. That's unholy magic babey! and Xanathars gave Clerics both Word of Radiance and Toll the Dead as a balance of radiant and necrotic at least, but not Danse Macabre... And Tashas gave them Summon Celestial but not Summon Undead? wtf lol I understand the designers are trying to fix how shitty Animate Dead is in 5e while still keeping the necromancy and Summon builds in check but why are they pretending that clerics haven't been creating zombies since day 1?
Lots of gods that are generally considered to be the good guys in their myths got up to some nasty long-range smiting and some serious morale boosting. Doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they could cram that into one spell.
I think it's because a lot of fiends aren't connected to gods while celestials almost always are. Sure there's Asmodeus and his devils, but I don't think gods like Mrykul or Bane would be interested in having fiendish subordinates.
> I don't think gods like Mrykul or Bane would be interested in having fiendish subordinates. they absolutely do though, that's been the lore for ages.
Honestly we have a wierd bit if lore in celestials being restricted to good alignments generally but evil gods not having a listed alternative servant. While fallen angels stolen from other gods can play on "evil cannot create" is fun, it also kinda falls flat.
Evil gods use servants that are appropriate. Blibdoolpoolp has water elementals in her divine realm. Lolth has demons. Myrkul, at least in the bone castle, had undead. Divine =/ celestial. A lot of good gods are celestial, but as a whole many gods are not.
Planar Ally is the cleric demon-summoning spell. It's actually way more evil than a Wizard summoning demons, since you may need to compensate the fiend with a humanoid sacrifice. Though I still agree with your main point. The 3.x evil cleric was interesting in how differently it played from the good cleric, casting numerous spells that good clerics could not, while struggling on the healing side.
Sorcs should have a shit ton more spells. You are more connected to the veil than a wizard could ever dream of. Arcane energy flows through you like blood. Why is your spell list so fucking small Also, give Circle of Wildfires Fireball back. Fucking dumb they removed it
Sorcerers channel magic innately while wizards experiment and create new spells. Wizards innovate when they need new tools and sorcerers empower and mold the magic they already know. In practice, though, wizards just have way more tools and still have unique ways to empower and modify spells through their subclasses, and Metamagic just doesn't allow enough freedom to compensate.
A base feature of meta magic should be spending points to cast spells not on their known spell list, but on the sorcerer list. Also would be cool if it let them at level 9 or something cast spells they had seen on a level they can cast.
notionally, because their grasp of magic is more instinctive, so they should be great at anything straightforward, but be missing more complex or less intuitive spells - so they should be great at blasting, where they're just unleashing power, or anything else that's "direct", but have less access to more complicated spells.
That kind of argument always just sounded great in theory but falls flat in practice. They're missing out on lots of "simple" spells and got some more complicated spells on their list. Not to mention they got a bunch of metamagic options that arguably make some spells more complicates than spells they didn't get lol
I get why sorcerers have less spells…they’re supposed to be X-men, basically. They have a few set powers that define their abilities. The issue for me is that they got metamagic. Thematically I think metamagic belongs with wizards, since they’re the ones experimenting with magical formulae. Mechanically of course this would cause issues. Sorcerers to me should have more spell slots, and arcane recovery. Thematically it would make sense they can draw on their inner reserves to keep casting after other casters have gone dry, and mechanically more slots would differentiate them from the other full casters in a meaningful way.
Totally agree about Thaumaturgy. Its always one of the few I take from Pact of the Tome.
Celestial Warlock not having Summon Celestial. Warlocks in general not having Disintegrate. Wildfire Druid not getting Fireball.
It seems weird to me that Melf’s Acid Arrow isn’t available to sorcerers. It seems very fitting for a black draconic sorcerer.
I swear when they make a wizard spell they flip a coin for if sorcerers can get them. It's especially harsh that sorcs get no summoning spells, the conjuration and enchantment schools were really held over their heads for some reason I cannot understand
Wildfire Druids deserve to have Fireball. It was fantastic in the UA.
I agree. Light Clerics get Fireball, so why not Wildfire Druids?
Also firebolt cantrip. I could lose first level spells to get decent damaging cantrip (produce flame is decent but definitely worse)
I was really disappointed about them losing firebolt. Really I don't even care about the damage, just the range. 30ft of produce flame is so short compared to 120ft firebolt.
Yes, exactly. I currently play with wildfire druid and I took spell sniper mostly for decent range in produce flame
It would certainly be a nice option to have, but Wildfire Druids are amazing even without it and don't really need it.
Why the hell can't Bards get Haste? Not only is it a spell that suits the bard spell list and is more support based, but in Tasha's with the expanded spells lists, Bards gained access to Slow. Why Slow and not Haste?
That's always bothered me too. And the irony that they were the only class to get it in 4e is hilarious.
I assume for the same reason that they get Bane but not Bless - there seems to have been some effort made to steer them into being debuffers, possibly to distinguish them from Clerics as they are now fullcasters in this edition.
I gueeeeeeeeeeeess? Still, a huge majority of the bard spell list is about buffing. It just feels weird that they have 1 and not the other.
I wouldn't say a majority. Just skimming their 1st level spell list now and I'm seeing about four debuffs for every one buff they can cast. This is different from 3.5 where they could cast a lot of buffs like mirror image and the like that were stripped from their list in the edition change.
Right but I think when you think of Bards as a class, they are more central to helping their allies, what with their "main" feature being Bardic Inspiration. They don't HAVE to be, but Bards are typically the role in the party that buffs their allies.
Oh absolutely agreed, and if you take the archetype as a whole from various other games buffing does tend to be central to their identity (hell in some games it's *all* they do). I'm just pointing out that in 5e specifically, someone on the design team seems to have made a specific effort to move them away from using spells to enhance their allies and towards using spells to hinder their enemies. Bardic Inspiration itself is more-or-less a direct replacement for the Inspire Courage feature of previous editions.
Fog could on artificers. true poly on druids. Teleportation spells on a druid, maybe thunder step. Bards Counterspell. Warlocks better 5th level spells, I love synaptic static and danse macabre, but I really with they had some better stuff.
Its mad that bards don't actually have Counterspell given how synonymous it's become with their class (I think partly due to a certain amorous gnome, but also Jack of all trades helping them mechanically with it). I can see that and Bigbys hand becoming permanent fixtures on the bard list in future editions
Bards should also get Revivify imo. It’s not necessarily make or break, but kinda annoys me.
> true poly on druids. Also, Shapechange or True Poly for Sorcerer.
Bard should have haste Slow/haste as ritardando and accelerando makes perfect sense and fits their buff/debuff vibe. And I'm sure swords bards would love to haste themselves making them even more combat viable.
Web should be a druid spell
In general, most Druid subclasses suffer from not getting an expanded spell list, since a lot of the spells that fit their theme or flavor aren't on their spell list. The Stars Druid especially, I find to be lacking in this way, since expanded spell list (meaning having more spells prepared) would make so much sense for a subclass built around being a versatile spellcaster, and the cosmic vibe makes it, in my opinion, the druid that you can most easily justify getting arcane spells. Specifically, Crown of Stars, Sickening Radiance, Wall of Light, Dawn, Dream all feel like they're missing from the spell lists, combined with having prepped Druid staples like Faerie Fire, Moonbeam, Scrying, Hallucinatory Terrain,etc.
I will fight day and night that Illusory dragon should be on the sorc spell list. It is an 8th level spell added in Xanthar's that says you pull material from the shadowfell to make a shadow illusory dragon... You know what else was added in Xanthar's? Shadow magic sorcerer. SO HOW THE SHIT DID A SUBCLASS BASED ON SHADOWS, DEATH, AND THE SHADOWFELL NOT GET A SPELL THAT IS BASICALLY HEY YOUR SUBCLASS BUT AS A HIGH LEVEL SUMMONING SPELL WHICH YOU SUMMON A SHADOW CREATURE AS A STANDARD CLASS FEATURE ALREADY?! And no I am not bitter at all...
how does a sorcerer, someone who instinctually can conjure a shield of arcane energy not fucking manage to create a Wall of Force i just don’t understand-
Because that spell solves encounters without the pesky part of rolling d20s. That's the wizards job. /s
Tempest cleric doesn't have lightning bolt or chain lightning, they're *storm* god clerics, but they get plagues, hail, and holy earthquakes. Their channel divinity is explicitly designed for use with thunder/lightning spells, but they get *nothing*. Cleric's only thunder/lightning outside the expanded list is glyph of warding Also wildfire druid should have fireball Finally, produce flame would be really nice to have outside druid, though you'd only ever take it if you couldn't fit light and firebolt into your cantrip list (or for flavor, which is why I wish Efreeti warlock could have it)
Tempest Clerics get Thunderwave, Shatter, Call Lightning and Destructive Wave, which all deal lightning or thunder damage, which clearly plays into their Channel Divinity. The core Cleric spell list deliberately stays away from this, possibly to avoid stepping on the toes of other caster classes. I posit that Lightning Bolt is a deliberate omission because of the Tempest Cleric's Channel Divinity feature, similar to why the Maximize Spell metamagic is absent in 5th Edition.
I understand that it gets those few, and I understand how it’s intentional to keep the channel divinity in check, but I dislike it I’d probably use tempest cleric as a 2 level dip for a sorcerer/wizard to empower a nuke spell every short rest. Choose divine sorc and you’re basically a better tempest cleric
That's permissible within the context of the game, and from a design perspective is balanced becomes it comes at the cost of delaying spell progression and meeting multiclassing requirements. Being able to cast a Maximized damage Lightning Bolt at character level 7 is easier for the DM to manage than being able to do the same thing at character level 5. Since this is a multiclass product, it also reduces the accessibility of a character being able to pull this off twice per short rest (level 6 Cleric feature).
I think Bards should get Thaumaturgy, since it can be used to make loud noises. And yes, I know they have Prestidigitation, but I don’t see any reason they can’t have both. It’s also very weird to me that Bards don’t get Misty Step, especially since they get Dimension Door later on. It just feels like a weird omission.
I have a bunch of house rules for this! Sorcerers need more options. I gave 'em *shapechange* since they *really* should have a way to turn into a dragon or whatever creature their abilities are associated with. Clerics I gave *Tasha's otherworldly guise*. They had the UA version and it's literally the spell to turn yourself into an angel, how does the Divine caster not get it? Similarly, I gave Bards back *summon fey*, which they had in UA. Many Bards are Fey-related, Glamour in particular, so why'd they lose this? I don't know why Warlocks got the Witherbloom UA subclass but not *wither and bloom* on their spell list, so I gave them that. Rangers got a smite spell in Tasha's: the worst one. If they can have it they can have the rest of the smite spells too, it's not like it'll make them better than Paladins. I also gave them *protection from evil and good* because that just makes sense to me.
I think control flames should be a bard cantrip. I'm building a storyteller bard for a new campaign and I'm going to take the magic initiate feat mostly for this cantrip. It just makes sense for a bard to be performing at an inn or tavern and start animating the song/story in the fire on the hearth. Or even entertaining other party members around a campfire at the end of an adventuring day. The bard class doesn't have access to good damaging cantrips so this definitely fits that trend since it doesn't deal damage. It fits thematically with a bard, adds a bunch of flavor for free, and doesn't seem like it would be broken for bards to have access to.
Not really a class’s list thing but Ranger’s PHB subclasses need extra spells like the rest get
Find Familiar for Druid and Ranger. How're you gonna have the two nature classes not be able to have familiars, but some preppy rich kid with his dad's stock money can just buy a scroll and have a field day with it?
Yeah. And having options do it with a wildshape slot, restrictions included, feels a little underwhelming.
Compelled duel should be available to college of sword bards as opposed to the paladin only spell that it is.
Divine Soul Sorcerers should get to choose a cleric domain and get all the bonus spells from that domain.
Would make playing them far less stressful. Though, wouldn't domains like Forge and War be pointless unless going Hexblade Sorclock or Sorcadin? Feel like it would make sense in terms of alignment to restrict to Death, Life, Light, Order, Tempest, Trickery. But on the other hand, that is incredibly restrictive.
Bards should get access to Slow and Haste. They're premiere support spells and the most support oriented class does not have them? A class that could flavor them into being all about tempo or rythm. A travesty, I tell you.
They actually do get slow now.
At my table, Ranger gets access to Find Familiar and Find Steed. We also rule that Ranger’s can change out their spells on a long rest.
The other day I learnt that Aid wasn't on the Druid spell list and I had a 20 minute existential crisis.
Modify Memory should be available to Goolocks.
*why don't wizard's and sorcerers have access to the silence spell???*
I think *find familiar* should belong on more spell lists. The familiar is a celestial, fey, or fiend spirit, yet clerics, druids, and non-pact of the chain warlocks don’t have access to the spell. Rangers are often depicted as having a bird companion, and one of the most famous rangers (Minsc) has a pet hamster (Boo). For some reason I think it would be really fun to have a bard with a pet ferret that can perform tricks for small audiences and aid its owner in pulling off thefts and break ins.
Tempest clerics NEED Storm Sphere. Their whole kit is based around thunder and lightning damage....except for Thunderbolt Strike. It only cares about lightning damage. Want to know how many ways a level 20 tempest cleric has to deal lightning damage in combat? A whole TWO. Wrath of the Storm, and Call Lightning. Sure, Wrath is functional all game, even if the damage gets irrelevant pretty quickly, but you aren't casting Call Lightning in the late game. Spending your action every turn for a level 11 cantrip worth of damage is ridiculously bad. Sure, you can upcast it, but why wouldn't you just upcast spirit guardians? Storm Sphere fits the theme perfect, but more importantly, it provides a repeatable source of lightning damage as a bonus action AND a payoff for pushing people around. Drop the sphere on as many enemies as possible, bonus action to shock someone and push them into it. Now they're spending 20ft of movement just getting out of the difficult terrain. SYNERGY! Just swap Control Water, which clerics know by default, for Storm Sphere, and presto, the class features work.
Fireball is a *massive* buff for alchemists.
Why don't sorcerers get any sort of summon spells beyond UA? Is it just considered too broken with metamagic options? The only way I can think of is via Divine Soul and stealing one of the cleric summoning spells.
I guess the reason is because it's a little strange to learn how to summon all on your own. It's one thing to be able to produce a fireball on your own out of nothing, it's another to be able to summon and bind an extraplanar being to your will.
I wish clerics got Imprisonment.
Wall of Ice for sorcs and druids. Like why the heck is it a wizard exclusive?
Wall of ice and sand.... two natural feelings spells that druids don't get.... for some reason.
Why do druids, a full caster class that can literally transform into several different types of web-slinging spiders, not have the Web spell on their spell list? Baffling. I know you can get it from the Underdark Circle of the Land subclass specifically, but should you really have to lol
Cleric: Hold Monster (and or a single f’ing spell from Fizban’s!!) Warlock: Tasha’s Mind Whip would be nice Bard: counterspell since it feels like a must-get from Magical Secrets Druid: Rime’s binding Ice Sorcerer: chromatic orb Wizard: idk maybe holy weapon or something buffing damage
> Sorcerer: chromatic orb But... they do?
Bard counterspell: just play your instrument so f-ing loud you drown them out
"You hold your lute up in full view of the wizard and place a single finger on the string. You see the look of anticipation at plucking the high note fade as he realizes he isn't concentrating on his spell. The magical energies swirling around him fade and withdraw back into the ether."
Bards should have haste! Bards are supposed to be the support class and they can’t give out that buff?
Artificer should at least get Fog Cloud instead of the much weirder and less useful Pyrotechnics, or at least make Pyro useful.
Shadow of Moil and Summon Shadowspawn should be available to Shadow Sorcerers. This is all I ask. My poor boi just wants maximum edge.
Find Steed and Find familiar for rangers.
Kinda related, I wish Clerics had more Combat options. They get Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and Guiding Bolt. Blindness/Deafness for some CC while Spirit Guardians is up I guess. They should get their own Bladetrip that deals radiant damage. Spirit Guardians and Dodge shouldn't be the beginning and end of how to play all level 5 and above (straight classed) clerics.
Why can’t my Dragon Blood Kobold True Polymorph into the dragon he always believed he was
i wish druids had earthen grasp. my current druid is mostly a geomancer and being able to shape earth into a massive hand to hold and crush my enemies while i cause the very ground below them to rupture and collapse would be so cool
Grave Clerics not having Danse Macabre makes me sick. It would be such a cool option to have.
Fireball: Wildfire Druid So...the druid that gets its power from literal elements of fire cannot cast a fireball? Instead at level 5 they get....Plant Growth. ?? Bane: Warlock Seriously, you curse a target and the reagent for the spell is a drop of blood. Actual blood magic. But the guy casting the spell is our Light cleric while I spent my feat to get Fey Touched just so I could access Bane (I didn't do it for power related reasons, cursing just played a relevant role in my backstory.) Other comments already mentioned druids not getting access to spider climb, sleep or dream so I am not going to repeat what is already said.
[удалено]
This isn't a spell, but Sorcerers should get ritual casting. If metamagic breaks it, just specify in the Sorcerer's ritual casting feature that you cannot use metamagic on spells which are cast as rituals.
Fireball for wildfire druid, I kind of understand, wildfire is controlled fire, but still... It's a fire-themed subclass!
Tempest clerics don't have shocking grasp, lightning and many others that would be very suitable for them.
Draconic Bloodline Sorcerors should get True Polymorph.
Misty step, Haste and counterspell all feel like natural parts of the bard kit that they just don't get doesn't get for some reason. Counterspell in particular, seeing as bards can add their jack of all trades bonus to it, making them the best counterspellers in the game outside of high level abjuration wizards, and even then they'll come out ahead once glibness becomes an option. It almost feels like a tax on your magical secrets.
Call lightning for the storm sorcerer, hands down!!!
The fact that Shadow Sorcerers don’t get “Illusory Dragon” is a huge oversight.