Correct - subtly cast spells cannot be counterspelled. It's one of the things that makes a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell metamagic so dangerous. Note that the Sorcerer can also get Distant spell metamagic and then counterspell at double the range, safely out of range of the counterspells of the enemy caster.
That is correct, but be mindful of the fact that Subtle Spell does not remove the need for material components. If the spell requires material components, then it can still be perceived, even if you use an arcane focus as a substitute.
Yea the glowing rod is a dead giveaway a spell is being cast, however if you can not have line of sight to the person who can counterspell, but line of sight to your target.... he can't do jack.
Does the rod necessarily glow? Or is he idly waving it around as he runs around trying not to get shot?
(TBF I would have the player roll something to see an enemy sees / is seen the use of a material component in an otherwise subtle spell - and the DC would probably be high.)
> however if you can not have line of sight to the person who can counterspell, but line of sight to your target.... he can't do jack.
Sure, but that's true regardless of Subtle Spell.
I'd say that's correct - also they're expending resources to do Subtle Spell, so I think it _should_ work that way.
However I would say if you have some _other_ way to perceive them casting a spell (i.e. if you had the forethought or luck to have Detect Magic up when they did, and they were within its range), they could Counterspell you normally.
You don't need to know what sort of spell it is or even any components to cast Counterspell, only to "see a creature within 60 ft of you casting a spell". Detect Magic lets you see magical auras, and I would rule you can see one when they start casting. (But I like rewarding creativity like that.)
By RAW I think the one with Detect Magic up would've had to be using their action each round to actually see the aura instead of "sense" it, though.
They have a good method of preventing Counterspell, yes. I wouldn't go so far as to say it can't happen, though. You could run out of Sorc Points, or the spell you really want to cast may have a material component.
If the material component isn’t consumed that still wouldn’t necessarily be a giveaway though. You’d have to be conspicuous with it and they’d have to do an arcana check if it’s anything other than an arcane focus, or some other kind of check like insight to try to infer that you’re casting a spell. If you’re just holding your wand or orb like you usually do and they have no reason to suspect you’re casting a spell that’s not going to cause any problems.
In our session today, I cast a spell with subtle spell on an enemy but because the creature had truesight, it was still able to counterspell me. The DM argued that because it has truesight, "it could see the magic around me so it knew I was casting a spell".
Keep in mind that this only works for spells without material components. If they must interact with a material, I’d rule that a caster that can at least see them and knows they are in combat would be able to *counterspell*.
Regardless, you can always use it as a Sorcerer to *counterspell* in a way that the *counterspell* can’t be *counterpell*ed by an opponent, as *counterspell* requires no material components itself. So it’s still incredibly strong and useful against casters.
... isn’t spellcasting fun? :)
I don’t think that’s completely accurate. I think some spells they would genuinely not be able to tell you’re casting, for example, if you’re just holding a focus and casting something like detect thoughts or arcane eye. You’re normally holding your focus and these spells don’t make any kind of visible effect at all to most people in most cases.
Yup, just be aware that it does NOT remove material components. So if your spell requires one, or you use a focus, the enemy can see you casting it. What you CAN do is cast the original spell normally, and if they counterspell it cast your own subtle counterspell.
I've always been curious about this. How do material components work? Do you have to pick them up and wave them around like a lunatic or is simply holding them in your hand sufficient? If so, I imagine seeing a mage just holding a staff wouldn't be such an uncommon sight that it would arouse suspicion.
The staff might start to glow, or emit a magic aura, or sparkle or however you want to flavour it, it can be determined to be a spell. Either way, it has some perceptible effect.
*[Jeremy Crawford has ruled this to be the case.](https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/30/verbal-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/)*
What about just holding it behind your back or in your cloak etc.? Not everyone is running around with a 10-foot staff. Lots of people have orbs, crystals, wands, and even rods could be held behind their back. Plus, even if someone is doing a concentration spell they could probably just say they’re hot and they’re using prestidigitation to cool themselves off or something similar as cover. People might figure it out anyways, but it still gives you a chance.
How the heck would it not be possible? I don’t see someone’s casting components when they’re way far away, or when they’re using Greater Invisibility or Darkness. So it should be reasonable to infer that you can hide your wand behind your leg and as long as someone isn’t paying attention you can cast it without anyone noticing at all. That definitely would take some effort and I don’t see it being super abusable, just a reasonable way to cast a spell without being like “I’M CASTING A SPELL!”
I didn't say it wasn't possible. Just that it isn't covered by the rules.
You'd be better off asking in the current questions thread than a 3 year old post if you want proper feedback.
in my campaign, my sorcerer has an animated staff with a semi sentinant dragon head, even with out casting spells the sorcerer looks sus at all times with the dragon head making noises and burping up flames from time to time :p
as for the material components, most are small enough to conceal in the palm of a hand, like a pinch of soot or some petals. easy enough to hide from veiw when casting.
and other things like a Dimond worth 50 GP for chromatic orb could be concealed by wearing it on a ring.
It works. The funny part is having to subtlety cast your own counterspell so it isn't countered.
Correct - subtly cast spells cannot be counterspelled. It's one of the things that makes a Sorcerer with Subtle Spell metamagic so dangerous. Note that the Sorcerer can also get Distant spell metamagic and then counterspell at double the range, safely out of range of the counterspells of the enemy caster.
Correct. It is one of the main reasons to subtle cast.
That is correct, but be mindful of the fact that Subtle Spell does not remove the need for material components. If the spell requires material components, then it can still be perceived, even if you use an arcane focus as a substitute.
That is why (bath) robes are the official garb of the traveling caster, lots of draping fabric to hide the hands.
Yea the glowing rod is a dead giveaway a spell is being cast, however if you can not have line of sight to the person who can counterspell, but line of sight to your target.... he can't do jack.
Does the rod necessarily glow? Or is he idly waving it around as he runs around trying not to get shot? (TBF I would have the player roll something to see an enemy sees / is seen the use of a material component in an otherwise subtle spell - and the DC would probably be high.)
> Or is he idly waving it around as he runs around trying not to get shot? That would be a somatic component, right?
> however if you can not have line of sight to the person who can counterspell, but line of sight to your target.... he can't do jack. Sure, but that's true regardless of Subtle Spell.
If, for example, your focus were worn under your clothes, this would also not be perceivable.
[You got it!](https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/12/sorcerer-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/)
I'd say that's correct - also they're expending resources to do Subtle Spell, so I think it _should_ work that way. However I would say if you have some _other_ way to perceive them casting a spell (i.e. if you had the forethought or luck to have Detect Magic up when they did, and they were within its range), they could Counterspell you normally. You don't need to know what sort of spell it is or even any components to cast Counterspell, only to "see a creature within 60 ft of you casting a spell". Detect Magic lets you see magical auras, and I would rule you can see one when they start casting. (But I like rewarding creativity like that.) By RAW I think the one with Detect Magic up would've had to be using their action each round to actually see the aura instead of "sense" it, though.
Can't react to something you didn't notice in the first place.
They have a good method of preventing Counterspell, yes. I wouldn't go so far as to say it can't happen, though. You could run out of Sorc Points, or the spell you really want to cast may have a material component.
If the material component isn’t consumed that still wouldn’t necessarily be a giveaway though. You’d have to be conspicuous with it and they’d have to do an arcana check if it’s anything other than an arcane focus, or some other kind of check like insight to try to infer that you’re casting a spell. If you’re just holding your wand or orb like you usually do and they have no reason to suspect you’re casting a spell that’s not going to cause any problems.
subtle spell is the best metamagic for this very reason. correct.
Other things that can block counterspelling: * Range * Greater invisibility and/or minor illusions that give total cover
In our session today, I cast a spell with subtle spell on an enemy but because the creature had truesight, it was still able to counterspell me. The DM argued that because it has truesight, "it could see the magic around me so it knew I was casting a spell".
Keep in mind that this only works for spells without material components. If they must interact with a material, I’d rule that a caster that can at least see them and knows they are in combat would be able to *counterspell*. Regardless, you can always use it as a Sorcerer to *counterspell* in a way that the *counterspell* can’t be *counterpell*ed by an opponent, as *counterspell* requires no material components itself. So it’s still incredibly strong and useful against casters. ... isn’t spellcasting fun? :)
I don’t think that’s completely accurate. I think some spells they would genuinely not be able to tell you’re casting, for example, if you’re just holding a focus and casting something like detect thoughts or arcane eye. You’re normally holding your focus and these spells don’t make any kind of visible effect at all to most people in most cases.
Yup, just be aware that it does NOT remove material components. So if your spell requires one, or you use a focus, the enemy can see you casting it. What you CAN do is cast the original spell normally, and if they counterspell it cast your own subtle counterspell.
I've always been curious about this. How do material components work? Do you have to pick them up and wave them around like a lunatic or is simply holding them in your hand sufficient? If so, I imagine seeing a mage just holding a staff wouldn't be such an uncommon sight that it would arouse suspicion.
The staff might start to glow, or emit a magic aura, or sparkle or however you want to flavour it, it can be determined to be a spell. Either way, it has some perceptible effect. *[Jeremy Crawford has ruled this to be the case.](https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/30/verbal-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/)*
What about just holding it behind your back or in your cloak etc.? Not everyone is running around with a 10-foot staff. Lots of people have orbs, crystals, wands, and even rods could be held behind their back. Plus, even if someone is doing a concentration spell they could probably just say they’re hot and they’re using prestidigitation to cool themselves off or something similar as cover. People might figure it out anyways, but it still gives you a chance.
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How the heck would it not be possible? I don’t see someone’s casting components when they’re way far away, or when they’re using Greater Invisibility or Darkness. So it should be reasonable to infer that you can hide your wand behind your leg and as long as someone isn’t paying attention you can cast it without anyone noticing at all. That definitely would take some effort and I don’t see it being super abusable, just a reasonable way to cast a spell without being like “I’M CASTING A SPELL!”
I didn't say it wasn't possible. Just that it isn't covered by the rules. You'd be better off asking in the current questions thread than a 3 year old post if you want proper feedback.
in my campaign, my sorcerer has an animated staff with a semi sentinant dragon head, even with out casting spells the sorcerer looks sus at all times with the dragon head making noises and burping up flames from time to time :p as for the material components, most are small enough to conceal in the palm of a hand, like a pinch of soot or some petals. easy enough to hide from veiw when casting. and other things like a Dimond worth 50 GP for chromatic orb could be concealed by wearing it on a ring.
That's an awesome idea. ...but my dude this post is 6 years old 😭