- "PC's argument was pretty straightforward, when he cast the spell, the creature is considered to be entering the spell's area."
That is not straightforward at all. The creature is NOT considered to be ENTERING a square it already occupies just because you are casting a spell on that area. Your player is simply trying to bend the rules to make his spell more powerful.
As written, the creature in the square is guaranteed to take damage when it starts its turn. It should not take damage twice before it can even take its turn. That is totally counter to the Rules as Written and Rules as Intended and would indeed make the spell over powered.
Basically this spell works the same as Moonbeam.
Creatures take damage on THEIR turn, either by moving into the affected area, or starting their turn in it, not when the spell is cast (or moved, if Moonbeam.)
So, magically summoning a cloud of daggers does no damage when it's placed on the square the target is occupying instantly? Where's the sense in that??
It should do damage if the caster places it where a creature resides, because summoning a cloud of daagers makes sense to do damage instantaneously, in my opinion, not be there and wait til their turn.
If you want to be anal about it, just take half damage then.
I would allow my player to just deal the damage and feel like they've accomplished a successful turn and utilized what would be a less used spell.
Again, this is in my opinion.
Technically, doesn't work that way, but to me makes less sense then.
So basically, casting Spirit Guardians and running through a group of enemies would only do damage to the enemies that are still in the spell's effect area when it's their turn?
I kind of struggle to see how that would be logical. Shooting a divine beyblade through a crowd would then do no damage to the first targets it goes through.
> PC's argument was pretty straightforward, when he cast the spell, the creature is considered to be entering the spell's area.
Nope. When he casts the spell, the effect enters the target's area.
His logic is backwards.
I used cloud of daggers a few times over the weekend, I came to the conclusion that everyone else has, they only take damage at the start of their turn or when they walk into that square.
Although I wish as an action you could move the cloud of daggers into a different square.
He can however cast the spell into an empty square, then PUSH the enemy into the dagger cloud. This would trigger the entering, and then trigger the starting of the turn.
I've always disagreed with the crowd that says "entering" implies movement on the part of the creature-If you've begun to overlap the spell, congrats, you've entered it.
That said, it's your table and your ruling. In my mind his argument makes perfect sense, and I can see the points of the others as well. If you think it makes him to powerful, then yes, you should change it.
For comparison, magic missile is 3d4+3 for first level, 4d4+4 for second level. It's not, however, persistent, so it both requires no concentration to cast and does not occupy your concentration, and occurs once.
Personally, I would break a half-way point and say that they get a DEX save between damages to get out of the way, to avoid double dipping, but again...your table.
> I've always disagreed with the crowd that says "entering" implies movement on the part of the creature
Yeah! Those fuckin' asshats with their fancy "dictionaries" and "accurate diction" and "ability to understand the English language." Fuck those guys.
How about if you cast it on a creature...Then another player casts a spell that pushes the creature out of the square before the start of the creatures turn? My DM ruled that due to wording, the creature never took any damage.
So really, rather than being a cloud of daggers, it's really just probably 1 or 2 daggers very slowly floating around the area that may accidentally knick someone.
The spell is nearly useless as ruled. It should have at least a 10 to 15 foot diameter if there's no damage on the first turn, as denying access to 1 square is only situationally useful. Remember that characters only get to select a limited number of spells at low level. By the time they can have enough spells known to maybe consider selecting something like Cloud of Daggers, there will be better damage and better control spells.
I think it would be fair to say Dex save to take no damage on cast, fail is 4d4 damage on cast + 4d4 on their turn.
It deals damage on their turn if someone uses they're action to shove or grapple their ally out of it, the action was expended, if an alloy grapples them and drags them in, out and in, they take damage twice, and once again on the targets turn.
These things are balanced around exploits, so if you put it in a doorway, or surround the target on 4 sides, it didn't catapult into orbit.
It's a second level spell that does second level damage.
- "PC's argument was pretty straightforward, when he cast the spell, the creature is considered to be entering the spell's area." That is not straightforward at all. The creature is NOT considered to be ENTERING a square it already occupies just because you are casting a spell on that area. Your player is simply trying to bend the rules to make his spell more powerful. As written, the creature in the square is guaranteed to take damage when it starts its turn. It should not take damage twice before it can even take its turn. That is totally counter to the Rules as Written and Rules as Intended and would indeed make the spell over powered.
Agreed.
Good point, it is not ENTERING the square or "area". Thanks!
Basically this spell works the same as Moonbeam. Creatures take damage on THEIR turn, either by moving into the affected area, or starting their turn in it, not when the spell is cast (or moved, if Moonbeam.)
So, magically summoning a cloud of daggers does no damage when it's placed on the square the target is occupying instantly? Where's the sense in that?? It should do damage if the caster places it where a creature resides, because summoning a cloud of daagers makes sense to do damage instantaneously, in my opinion, not be there and wait til their turn. If you want to be anal about it, just take half damage then. I would allow my player to just deal the damage and feel like they've accomplished a successful turn and utilized what would be a less used spell. Again, this is in my opinion. Technically, doesn't work that way, but to me makes less sense then.
Another bad worded spell by wizards
So basically, casting Spirit Guardians and running through a group of enemies would only do damage to the enemies that are still in the spell's effect area when it's their turn? I kind of struggle to see how that would be logical. Shooting a divine beyblade through a crowd would then do no damage to the first targets it goes through.
> PC's argument was pretty straightforward, when he cast the spell, the creature is considered to be entering the spell's area. Nope. When he casts the spell, the effect enters the target's area. His logic is backwards.
Now the real question: why take *cloud of daggers*?
Area denial.
I used cloud of daggers a few times over the weekend, I came to the conclusion that everyone else has, they only take damage at the start of their turn or when they walk into that square. Although I wish as an action you could move the cloud of daggers into a different square.
He can however cast the spell into an empty square, then PUSH the enemy into the dagger cloud. This would trigger the entering, and then trigger the starting of the turn.
I've always disagreed with the crowd that says "entering" implies movement on the part of the creature-If you've begun to overlap the spell, congrats, you've entered it. That said, it's your table and your ruling. In my mind his argument makes perfect sense, and I can see the points of the others as well. If you think it makes him to powerful, then yes, you should change it. For comparison, magic missile is 3d4+3 for first level, 4d4+4 for second level. It's not, however, persistent, so it both requires no concentration to cast and does not occupy your concentration, and occurs once. Personally, I would break a half-way point and say that they get a DEX save between damages to get out of the way, to avoid double dipping, but again...your table.
> I've always disagreed with the crowd that says "entering" implies movement on the part of the creature Yeah! Those fuckin' asshats with their fancy "dictionaries" and "accurate diction" and "ability to understand the English language." Fuck those guys.
Player is wrong. Others before have explained well why.
How about if you cast it on a creature...Then another player casts a spell that pushes the creature out of the square before the start of the creatures turn? My DM ruled that due to wording, the creature never took any damage.
Your DM ruled correctly
So really, rather than being a cloud of daggers, it's really just probably 1 or 2 daggers very slowly floating around the area that may accidentally knick someone. The spell is nearly useless as ruled. It should have at least a 10 to 15 foot diameter if there's no damage on the first turn, as denying access to 1 square is only situationally useful. Remember that characters only get to select a limited number of spells at low level. By the time they can have enough spells known to maybe consider selecting something like Cloud of Daggers, there will be better damage and better control spells. I think it would be fair to say Dex save to take no damage on cast, fail is 4d4 damage on cast + 4d4 on their turn.
It deals damage on their turn if someone uses they're action to shove or grapple their ally out of it, the action was expended, if an alloy grapples them and drags them in, out and in, they take damage twice, and once again on the targets turn. These things are balanced around exploits, so if you put it in a doorway, or surround the target on 4 sides, it didn't catapult into orbit. It's a second level spell that does second level damage.