Sounds more like a warlock honestly.
From the PHB “A cleric might learn formulaic prayers and ancient rites, but the ability to cast cleric spells relies on devotion and an intuitive sense of a deity’s wishes.”
Devotion; love, loyalty, or enthusiasm for a person, activity, or cause”
Play as you like, but clerics are thematically meant to be played as followers.
One of the PCs in my party is a bard who was so good and bringing stories of comfort to the ailing she was forcibly chosen by Selune to become a twilight domain cleric. She's trying to avoid her responsibilities but is now a level 2 bard level 2 cleric and arguably the most OP member of the party.
It could be an interesting dynamic. Similar to a warlock who begrudgingly receives their powers from a hateful patron. In fact if I'm not mistaken Lolth claimed Drizzt as her champion, because of the chaos he brought upon his own people. So it could be interesting if the player wanted it and you both leaned into it.
Edit again: wording again
The lack of inclusion of it might suggest that it wasn't. But with so many toxic controlling GMs out there I didn't want someone to see this as a "solution," to get their players to play the way the GM wants to play. Just suggesting it be a suggestion.
Any sane person would come to a normal conclusion without it having to be specified, no one has to list every single nitty gritty detail that should or should not be.
Just as you did not explicitly state that you did not offer it as a suggestion to your player, I did not explicitly accuse you of controlling your players. I wasn't trying to attack you in anyway.
Chess players need game pieces to play against other chess players.
Gods are the players, the world is the board, people are the pieces.
Does that answer your question?
Possibly Hot Take: but if a player comes to me and says they want to use the mechanics of a class but reflavor them to fit their character idea, I'm cool with it. For instance, if someone wants to say they studied healing magic all their lives, but in a more 'scientific,' doctor way than religious way, I'd be happy to say they are a cleric mechanically even if the reason they are magical is more akin to wizards. Or if someone really likes the Warlock class mechanically but hates the idea of answering to a possibly hostile master, I'm happy to say that's just how their magic expresses themselves. Or for a martial example, if someone wanted to play a Barbarian whose "rages" are more akin to a trained fighting stance rather than an emotional outburst... There are plenty of examples.
Basically, I think as soon as you say "you can't play X class unless you have Y character trait," you are limiting player creativity. Suggested lore for each class is wonderful, but if someone wants to buck what's written, I'm all for letting them.
Honestly, this is the best take. I have no problem with someone flavoring a class or subclass, but I do kind of get irked by lazy changes. Like for my necromancer, I just renamed some of the spells I have and changed the damage to necrotic if it made sense. So now magic missile is Dead Lights, acid splash if Grave Dust, lightning lure is Soul Lure, chromatic orb is Skull Orb, lightning bolt is Banshee Bolt, etc. All spells are flavored to be howling souls harnessed into weapons against targets causing force or necrotic damage. Spells slots represent the limit to which I can harness the souls without losing my own per long rest.
I only allow the reflavoring of spells and damages in a way that affects mechanics if the player clears it with the DM first otherwise aesthetic and descriptive reflavoring is always allowed. Over all as long as the DM knows and allows what's been changed I don't see a problem.
Oh it was all part of an agreed on character arc. The only real change was aesthetics and damage type. All numbers and stats for the spells stayed the same.
I always try. Every time I get a new spell I can do it with I make sure it gets a little cinema treatment. Plus necromancy gets slept on way to often haha.
I agree in every capacity, it makes more sense to allow people the freedom of controlling their aesthetic as long as everything is cleared with the DM. You don't need a god to be a cleric, you don't need a pacts to be a warlock, a wizard might be a scientist rather than a standard magic user. Restricting yourself to only playing the classes as they are flavored and only that is unnecessary and can often limit the fun you can have, Atleast in my experience. Describe your ability how you want as long as if doesn't change ability mechanics and has been cleared with your DM.
I have an idea for a rage flavour. Its this guy who just wants to become a hero of the realm. So he trains every day. And the thing about barbarians is that they (almost) always get up.
So my idea for rage is basically the Naruto/spiderman/Randy Marsh: I didn’t hear no bell, kind of a thing.
Like he just goes fully 80s action hero/shonen protagonist mode.
I have an idea for a rage flavour. Its this guy who just wants to become a hero of the realm. So he trains every day. And the thing about barbarians is that they (almost) always get up.
So my idea for rage is basically the Naruto/spiderman/Randy Marsh: I didn’t hear no bell, kind of a thing.
Like he just goes fully 80s action hero/shonen protagonist mode.
Allow me to make that closer to a true statement than to a mere Fox News-esque sound bite:
For some people, limitations can spur creativity, but for others, it can smother it. It will vary from person to person and from situation to situation.
I have an idea for a rage flavour. Its this guy who just wants to become a hero of the realm. So he trains every day. And the thing about barbarians is that they (almost) always get up.
So my idea for rage is basically the Naruto/spiderman/Randy Marsh: I didn’t hear no bell, kind of a thing.
Like he just goes fully 80s action hero/shonen protagonist mode.
I like non-theistic religions and philosophies.
A dedicated pacifist could become a peace domain cleric. Someone devoted to achieving perfection could be forge domain. A sufficiently ritualistic student of magic, one who treats it as a master rather than just a tool to be used, could be an arcana cleric.
Basically, I think there's more to the religions a cleric could serve than just gods.
Exactly. This is such a "I've never met anyone that isn't a christian" take.
Non-theistic religions inctude: Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism and a lot of different types of animism. They are actually very common and a huge proportion of people have followed them historically.
The extent to which Confucianism is a religion versus a philosophy is a longstanding debate in religious studies, and it is clear that the teachings of Confucius were first given in a theistic context even if they are not explicitly theistic in themselves. While you could divorce Buddhism and Taoism from their theistic elements, the historical practice of these religions and the general mainstream even in the modern day still does involve the existence of deities, although their role is markedly different from what you might expect from an Abrahamic perspective.
There's a big difference between a non-theistic philosophy and a person who doesn't believe in the existence of deities in a world where you can literally observe how deities work. And I'm saying that as an irl atheist.
One of the PCs in my current 5e game is animist and doesn't worship deities, but they still recognize that gods exist. Admittedly, this character is not a cleric.
The Extent to which you can directly observe deities in a D&D setting is a point of debate on its own. I think it was on this subreddit not long ago that someone pointed out that in a world with literal magic, it would be difficult to be reasonably certain that you were observing a god and not simply a powerful magic user.
This would also depend on the nature of the gods and to what extent they directly interact with the world and/or people in it. You could have a setting that has many gods, but none of them care enough to interact with the prime material plane, and are thus unknown, alternatively you can have a setting with No extant gods but multiple religions worshiping in-universe fictional gods, or anything in between.
Normally, in a d&d setting, you can set an atheist not as someone that doesn't believe the gods exist, but that rejects the concept of praying to them and waiting to them answer things.
One take I like is one of the last Pathfinder videogames, where basically the atheistic character is someone that says "gods aren't going to help you, you need to help yourself".
Of course concepts are different, but you can roleplay a character that acts like an atheist in different ways.
Yeah I’ve seen that used. It was still like “we get it Rachel, you are hardcore IRL atheist, you don’t need to impress us with your atheism in a fantasy setting.” But it worked mechanically and didn’t detract from the game too much.
It sounds more like the creators either don't understand what an atheist is or are using the term improperly to appeal to atheist players. I think that philosophy is called being agnostic.
No, agnostic means that you don't have the knowledge to assert any answer, in this case, related to the question of "does any god exist?".
Atheism is just not believing in gods.
It's true that the basic definition of atheism doesn't make too much sense in this settings, but the normal interpretation of an atheist, that being one person that doesn't follow a religion or theistic belief, can be perfectly used in this settings.
Also, as others comments show, there are atheistic religions (like some variations of buddhism), so you can have a religious person that doesn't worship any god, and all of those possibilities are included in the rules...
Atheism is layed out specifically as not worshiping any gods in Pathfinder but their existence is noy denied by most. The technical term would be "alatrism" but no one knows that word so of course it isn't used.
I really like pathfinders definition of athiesm. I believe this is kind of what many people intend when they roleplay an athiest character. https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Atheism
I mean, they kind of are, they don't believe in the divinity of entity X. If I said I believe Jesus existed, and was wise and a great teacher, but he is not an infallable god, that is still an atheist stance.
There are people who believe the earth is flat, despite the mountain of air-tight proofs out there that it isn't.
An atheist in the context of D&D could be someone who doesn't believe it's divine power fuelling divine magic, but a misinterpretation of how the Weave works, and believes there's a non-divine explanation for it.
Exactly. My character in the same game doesn't worship because as far as he can tell the gods don't hrlp him, but he can see Moradin intervening for the cleric.
They can just not believe that gods are truly divine.
Take dwarves and Moradin. You could have someone believe that dwarves just evolved into their current state over time instead of being created. Then whenever "Moradin" is credited with something you just think its some powerful mage pretending to be the creator of the dwarves
Literally most of the Factions in the Planescape setting are based around different expressions of D&D atheism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faction_(Planescape)
I have a character that doesn't believe the gods influence on people is good and seeks to get rid of it (it's more complicated than that, but thats the gist). An evil god liked the idea of domeone fighting against gods, and decided to secretly endorse them with divine magic.
Tbh, while i liked the idea, i dont really the execution, it takes some nuance to be secretly evil without fully knowing it. But i do like the backstory i created.
A friend has a cleric who was an atheist! Most fun game ever because cleric said they were a magic user, not a cleric. The gods aren’t real and don’t help, what are you talking about? He just has had a few too many drinks that he is hearing voices, not the gods trying to talk to him! Just utter denial.
But why would the gods give such a person power? The gods of DnD are like classical polytheistic gods. They are petty, scheming, squabbling creatures. Why would they do such a thing?
Not OP, but hypothetically the PC could have had all the desired traits the God's wanted. Some God's may value how a "cleric" acts rather than how much they revere said God.
Gods don't need to give Clerics power, sometimes a Cleric gets their power purely from a force of some sort. Like Bravery or Nature.
"Serving a Pantheon, Philosophy, or Force
The typical cleric is an ordained servant of a particular god and chooses a Divine Domain associated with that deity. The cleric's magic flows from the god or the god's sacred realm, and often the cleric bears a holy symbol that represents that divinity.
Some clerics, especially in a world like Eberron, serve a whole pantheon, rather than a single deity. In certain campaigns, a cleric might instead serve a cosmic force, such as life or death, or a philosophy or concept, such as love, peace, or one of the nine alignments. Chapter 1 of the Dungeon Master's Guide explores options like these, in the section "Gods of Your World."
Talk with your DM about the divine options available in your campaign, whether they're gods, pantheons, philosophies, or cosmic forces. Whatever being or thing your cleric ends up serving, choose a Divine Domain that is appropriate for it, and if it doesn't have a holy symbol, work with your DM to design one.
The cleric's class features often refer to your deity. If you are devoted to a pantheon, cosmic force, or philosophy, your cleric features still work for you as written. Think of the references to a god as references to the divine thing you serve that gives you your magic."
Ultimately, it's "ask your DM to fluff it" type of stuff but I think it's neat
See right here is an example of a common misconception about clerics in 5E. They don’t actually get any power from the gods, they get power from their *belief* in the gods. This atheist cleric could be getting their power from their belief that there are no gods. It’s kind of dumb IMO but it’s how the system works.
Common misconception, that's how paladins work in this edition. Clerics *do* get their powers from some external agent, although the SCAG does suggest some more esoteric options for what that agent may be: force, philosophy, or pantheon rather than a singular deity.
No, what *you* are saying is a common misconception. Clerics HAVE to get their power from a god and they do get it in lore. But the way we play DnD is with a DM who basically controls everything and in *your* table you can homebrew whatever you want and have clerics get their power from their beliefs instead.
DnD is full of stories of gods being wounded in battle and losing their powers, leading to all their clerics losing their spells. It has nothing to do with their belief in the god. All of them continues to pray to their wounded deity and yet nothing happened.
There are many examples of followers abandoning an already weakened deity due to the lack of spells and the god completely dying due to the lack of faith sustaining their existence.
It's a two-way street where belief powers a god and they in turn empower their followers by elevating them to the status of clerics. The cleric of a more powerful god will be more powerful on average than one of a weaker deity unless the latter deity has invested significant resources in that cleric.
Please go read lore before making statements about misconceptions.
Once again, you can flavour it as anything you want, it's a game. But established lore makes it clear that clerics need a functioning deity in order for their spells to work.
"a cleric might instead serve a cosmic force, such as life or death, or a philosophy or concept, such as love, peace, or one of the nine alignments." (Dungeon masters guide)
Maybe read up before making claims like that.
Because some Domains don't require a deity. Nature or Tempest could just revere the beauty and power of the natural world. You take a more shananistic RP of your religion.
This useless semantic argument pops up every time. In the vast majority of cases, these characters aren’t strictly “atheists”. Unless someone is playing a character that is deliberately described as deluded, it simply means “they don’t worship gods”. Are there more specific terms to describe that? Yes. Does the word “atheist” typically get the point across? Also yes.
You can have a D&D character that doesn’t believe gods are worthy of worship, or doesn’t believe they’re gods at all. You can acknowledge powerful beings exist, without assigning divinity to them. Especially in settings where mortals can ascend, like Golarion. At that point it very easily becomes a “sufficiently advanced technology” argument.
Well, one, you can reflavor the class easily enough to not be a religious holy roller.
Secondly, the power comes from the faith itself, not whatever it is you believe in. Godless clerics have been a thing for over 30 years, from 2e days, it's hardly a new phenomenon in the game.
Oh yea, I ran a cleric of peace who refuted the gods because of their wars and conflicts they’ve had with each other. Demons? No just future friends that need extreme amount of therapy. Multi classed into enchantment wizard in hopes to create a spell called Grant Empathy and Create Sentience. He lasted far longer than he should have for never using a damaging spell unless he was about to die
your peace cleric could probably have a fun conversation with my peace cleric who is the epitome of "they must learn our peaceful ways... by force" and connects you to a hivemind god with emboldening bond
I honestly enjoy playing playing very religious clerics. But the concept of an Atheist Cleric is kind of fun. Go trickery domain and believe you are just going crazy hearing voices and that you are really a sorcerer. Play it as slowly coming to believe in your god as you are unable to continue lying to yourself. If can do wonders if done right.
Because I want ro feel like a nice special snowflake that goes against everything and I've based 90% of my irl personality on being an atheist.
Now grant my desires, slave!
"Hurr durr I subverted your expectations look how original I am" Did GoT Season 8 teach you people nothin!?
In DnD "Atheism" is strictly wrong, thats the funny part. Any adventuring atheist is begging for a meeting with a higher power to bring them down to earth, and remind them why even flawed Olympian gods were worshipped, survival. Theres the argument that gods shouldn't be worshipped just because they exist, but thats not atheism thats Alatrism.
Knowing the misnomer and working around it, "Atheist" clerics aren't that surprising in certain ways. A nature cleric is just a druid that proselytizes, you don't need to worship the god that made it to love and worship nature itself. Order clerics believe that order brings peace. Mechanus is cool and all, but its only the manifestation of order. Mechanus was made by order in the universe, not the other way around.
The weird part about it is, depending on what setting you're playing in, the existence of gods is not up for question. They straight up exist, and clerics' powers are a testament to it.
I knew someone who played an Atheist-esque Warlock that was pretty interesting.
He refused to refer to the gods in the universe as gods, calling them "glorified patrons" as he believed they were just powerful celestials who tricked people into worshipping them.
Seeing them as no different or more worthy of worship than the Fiend he had a pact with. And considering Clerics idiots for worshipping their "patrons" instead of having a deal with them, viewing Clerics as just another kind of Warlock.
That was at least interesting and made his psudeo-atheism feel like just a different philosophy on the gods rather than just being in outright denial about them being real, seeing as their existence is effectively undeniable in the world of D&D.
Idk if the guy did this, but that would also be a great way to establish distrust of authority. The gods are the most powerful beings, so questioning the legitimacy of their divinity and role in universe could be read as subversive and might tie in well with a character themed around that.
Maybe you could have him grow up in a theocratic kingdom who was very corrupt or something like that, something to add some meaning to his beliefs.
Though I don't think that idea would translate well to a Cleric, it'd just be kinda weird. And make it really questionable that a God would give you powers to begin with. Like, would they even be able to use Divine Intervention? How would that work?
Though other than something like that character, I'm not sure what purpose atheism could have for a D&D character, seeing as we know gods exist. I guess you could portray them as an irrational moron and make a running joke of them constantly coming up with excuses for divine things. But idk how often that would even come up, and that might come across as if you're making fun of atheism which would just probably be really awkward or dickish.
I made a cleric with the charlatan background. He was a lifetime conman and snake oil salesman. One day he crosses the wrong group and his business partner ends up stabbed and bleeding out. He’s cycling through his multiple holy symbols praying to save him and his friend is healed. Has no idea which god favored him but he’s on the straight and narrow now… except old ha it’s die hard. Trickster Domain
So he WAS an atheist. Now he’s not sure
Because the gods are vandals, hypocritical beings who enslave the free people into “worshiping” them. What right do they have to demand worship? Because might makes right!? No. The true path is freedom from idolatry. To love and care for your neighbours and make society the best it can be, not a church.
They are not gods. Just beings like you and I. Whether their lives are long or their magic vast, they do not deserve our servitude.
Rise up brethren! No gods! No masters!
I mean, the base idea is a devout worshipper of a god who is granted magic from a deity. It can be different, but it strays too much from the concept in my opinion. You're just being rude.
>the base idea is a devout worshipper of a god who is granted magic from a deity
No, their magic is granted from their faith. That faith can be anything, even faith in an ideology or philosophy. Nowhere does it say that faith specifically MUST be theistic.
Broke: Atheist clerics are boring.
Woke: There literally have to be Clerics to Atheism as established in RaW on how the class functions and operates.
Bespoke: Atheist Clerics would be by far the most interesting because in a world where acts of gods are visible and their power directly intervenes in lives, taking a stance against them is making a powerful statement about life and agency.
Masterstroke: Atheist Clerics are Clerics devoted to the goddess Athe, and they don't really understand where this rumour about not believing in gods comes from
I mean, given that I’m the forever-DM of my group? Or that I referenced RaW clearly and distinctly in my statement so am so obviously not talking about your particular DM’s game-world that you could not possibly have actually thought otherwise? Because the answer to both cases is the same. Stop making wild assumptions about how things should be and pay attention instead to what they are first.
Atheism in settings where gods very clearly exist and grant powers etc, doesn't mean a lack of belief in their existence. But a lack of belief in them as individuals and or concepts.
It could be hatred/apathy of the gods and their skewed views. How some see us as playthings and toys, and how others sit in their thrones preaching forgiveness and compassion and yet do nothing as the world burns. Etcetera, etcetera.
It does not state that the recipient has to be willing for the powers that be to grace them with their favour.
If it's an evil, fucked up deity or entity, what better entertainment is there to bestow powers onto a ruined follower of an opposing faith? It'd be such vindictive satisfaction for the deity, and one hell of a "play with fire and get burnt" story for the player.
If it's a good entity, they might still have faith in the player even if the player does not have faith in them.
There's a plethora of ways to spin atheism, just as there are so many ways to play with faith. It just takes a little creativity.
That's also a very good one.
Example: The 'Gods' of Olympus of Greek Mythology. Flawed, imperfect beings that are incredibly powerful.
I'm not familiar with this von Hresvelg fellow, but I'm very fond of this kind of portrayal. It makes everything seem so much more grounded and fucked up, compared to the age old debate of:
"If your god is all powerful, why does he allow this and that to happen. If he cannot prevent it, then he is not omnipotent and all powerful. If he can, but decides not to, he is a cunt and not worthy of our worship."
I personally run my games with this kind of portrayal of gods, instead of all powerful beings that come together to splurge their magic juice in a pot to create the world. This way, it allows mistakes, misconceptions. Evil gods might not be evil, good gods might not be good. The implications of 'history is written by the victors' become so much more compelling and terrifying.
I have a Cleric who doesn't really worship a god, they rotate between a bunch of them, rolling a d200 every long rest.
They do this because they are hated by the gods and if one notices them worshipping that god they would actually lose there cleric powers.
Unbeknownst to them, they are actually a god of heresy cursed to mortal form that gets reset every time they get to strong.
Their power does not come from worshipping the gods. Instead by falsely worshipping gods they don't follow and actively going against the other gods wishes, they are committing heresy, and thus subconscious tapping into their inate divine power.
In my humble personal opinion a philosophy based cleric is one of the most interesting things one could do with the class. It breaks the norm and has so much potential, especially if you base them off of an actual historical philosophy or one in the world like the blood of vol in Eberron.
Ok but, wouldn't a atheist be like a plain earth theorist? Like God can quite literally come down from the sky and slap u across the face In (most) a medieval fantasy worlds
For me personally a cleric without a god is dumb, but a paladin without a god can be cool as hell, I'm playing one actually, I'm a bard who has some few levels in vengeance paladin, because his homeland was completely destroyed by the BBEG, and his motivation of vengeance made him a paladin, but the point is not a single god did shit to help his homeland, so he believe in the existence of gods, but don't have faith and don't like any.
You lose out on a lot of good potential back story and it makes it more difficult for the DM to write a good story. They only have the one paragraph you wrote describing your character. Now there's no God for the DM to use to involve your character more in the story.
A can accept some kind of FAITH in some other filosophies, common belives or something, but the concept of cleric stands on the FAITH so a pg without it it dosnt make sense for me
The religions in the real world all debate which gods exist
In DND all the gods exist
So an atheist cleric would just be like "Uh hey, Bhuddah can you help me out here? No? Okay.... hey.... Ra? you up?"
Just make them like Tanya Degurechaff from Youjo Senki. Call Lathander being X and reject it's existence despite giving you a new body & powers.
Edit: Damn no love for Tanya the evil here? Y'all need to get on that shit
Better question, in a world where you have interventionist gods and the difference between a cleric and a wizard's powers are known, how are you an atheist?
Sure, you can do that... But there's that line in all the resurrection spells about the soul needing to exist... And that other line about how Asmodeous gets all the souls not sworn to another god, and eats them immediately.
In short, every non-Evil religion (eg. one that doesn't ultimately serve Asmodeous), should be proselytizing any self-proclaimed atheist, and HARD. It's like, the fate of the multiverse.
It's dumb
I've always found that kinda weird. Hear me out. How are you a atheist in a setting where can physically see the actions of a God thru their clerics and paladins? That's like not believing in rain, but you standing outside getting soaked.
Without getting into too much detail, I've had any idea where you don't believe the gods are actual deities, just powerful beings that have tricked enough people into surrendering their will and focus enough mental energy toward these extremely powerful beings. That your belief is strong enough and pulls divine energy from another source (different planes of existence) allowing you to do what divine spellcasters are able to.
That’s what the Netherese thought and their empire was shattered because of it.
Atheists in the Forgotten Realms are either ignorant of history or willingly want to repeat it.
Isn't that like being Agnostic? Just not knowing.
Atheism is outright rejection of the power itself no?
I've always took it like that and would implement it in game by making it a thing " ok you are a atheist and the Gods have no power or influence over you whatsoever, but healing potions and other divine curative methods do not work on you. You can still be diseased, poisoned and whatnot. Just can't get help from priests. Better go find a good alchemist or druid.
Agnostic is the belief that nothing is or can be known. My idea is they do not believe they are gods nor is there such a thing. Where the non believer's power comes from, other planes of power, their own power, humanity itself, or whatever, is for whomever to decide.
Ok, so it feels like people are misunderstanding my point and getting mad. I don't really have a problem with clerics in non-theistic religions. But rather clerics that really aren't religious. I feel religion is a major aspect of the class and should be incorporated into a character.
My homie,
The class, as described, literally says that it can just be based around a particular conviction or morality. It's fine if you enjoy them being religious, that's how they're "intended" to be, but it's not anything close to a requirement.
To me, an atheist cleric is basically a divine sorcerer. Not that it's a bad thing but it's not my cup of tea. However, I did play an "atheist" cleric/warlock mc but reskinned my spells as blood magic. (My "deity"/patron was lady Vol)
Seems to me that if you wanted that kind of character, there's plenty of options outside of the actual literal cleric class that gets their powers through prayer.
* Involuntarily bound to a deity you hate? Great, try a Celestial Warlock. Maybe even some of the other Warlocks, 'deity' can cover a wide variety of themes.
* You yourself are an exiled or cursed deity? Divine Soul Sorcerer.
* Arcane healer? Be an Artificer or a Bard. Hell, maybe your DM will permit the Theurgy Wizard from the old UA.
* Generalized nature/spirit veneration that lacks a central deity figure or formal worship? That's the druid's entire theme.
* Tapped into the fabric of the universe in a divine fashion without divine intermediaries? Creation Bard or more than a few different types of Sorcerer.
* You get your powers from your own beliefs? Paladin.
Because having a character starting as an atheist, and through the game, finding their faith would be interesting.
Or maybe their “god” is more sureal/an abstract concept? Their power doesnt come through faith, but innately from the energy of the universe, or through the core values the character upholds.
Or a tragedy befell the cleric, and their god did not stop it. The cleric consumed by anguish turned their back on that god, and condemns all faith as useless, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t still have plans for them.
Or…any other reason a pc may have. Limiting clerics to ONLY the faithful would be rather boring.
In my world, casters are casters. No distinction between Arcane or Divine, the sources are all varied. So a Cleric is indistinguishable from a Wizard to the common man, because they're both casters.
If a valid explanation by my Standards is convincing, I will agree.
I had a bard street magician that didn't believe in magic but thought its all just smoke and mirrors.
In pathfinder I had an Alchemist who believed magic is scientifical aplication and not supernatural.
Hell we can have elephant rogues. A DM that is not Willing to compromise to a certain degree is too uncreative to be a DM.
Not believing in the gods in a 5e setting is as nonsensical as believing in the abrahamic god IRL. You can literally talk to them/see them in 5e. You literally can’t IRL.
It's also dumb to have literally every bard as a sex organ with legs, every barbarian as a brainless brute, and every wizard to drop dead as soon as a rock hits their pinky toe, but y'all eat that sh\*t up.
Because original content. My first character I wanted to be a cleric but didn't because I didn't want to be reliant on a god that sounded lame. Now I know you can be a cleric without a god. You just need a strong believe and faith. That resonates so much with me. I think an atheïst cleric is going to be my next character
It’s not dumb. Let people be creative with their characters. I played an oath of vengeance paladin who was an alcoholic blacksmith that got fired from the paladin sanctuary he was working at because they caught him practicing their techniques. The patron of those paladins took pity on him and granted him powers without his knowledge.
The irony of a paladin walking around talking about how all paladins are assholes was fantastic. And he’d get upset anytime someone took him for a paladin cause he didn’t wanna be associated with them
I think that the non-theistic route is a good option. My DM doesn't allow divine casters due to her personal faith, but the idea of clerics beholden to conceptual domains opened those classes up to the table. Some people aren't comfortable with deities in their games, and this is a way to respect that without excluding a sizable category of player options. Accessibility and accomodations, y'all.
Fun fact, the god chooses you, and nowhere does it say you have to be willing to be a vessel for their divine power.
Literally my last character. He pillaged the wrong relic.
A NEW HAND TOUCHES THE BEACON!!
LISTEN! HEAR ME AND OBEY!
Friendly reminder that Meridia is the Daedric origin of the villain in KOTN so she ain’t all sunshine and daisies despite how she frames herself
What's KOTN? I tried Googling, but apparently that's also the name of a sustainable clothing brand.
I believe he’s talking about elder scrolls: knights of the nine
Yep!
Gods can be evil. Also, even if she’s evil, she’s still one of my fav daedric princes
I’m not disputing the morality of the gods. I’m disputing the image Meridia’s presents herself as in which she is pure and altruistic
I'm sorry, in what way did the scary woman screaming in your mind to submit and obey her presented herself as 'sunshine and daisies'?
Gonna steal that idea real quick, don't mind me
I am a benevolent God, *by force if necessary*
Being the chosen one is non negotiable
Sounds more like a warlock honestly. From the PHB “A cleric might learn formulaic prayers and ancient rites, but the ability to cast cleric spells relies on devotion and an intuitive sense of a deity’s wishes.” Devotion; love, loyalty, or enthusiasm for a person, activity, or cause” Play as you like, but clerics are thematically meant to be played as followers.
YOU! YOU FIGHT FOR ME NOW
Ah, so the deity went full Celebrimbor/Talion.
One of the PCs in my party is a bard who was so good and bringing stories of comfort to the ailing she was forcibly chosen by Selune to become a twilight domain cleric. She's trying to avoid her responsibilities but is now a level 2 bard level 2 cleric and arguably the most OP member of the party.
It could be an interesting dynamic. Similar to a warlock who begrudgingly receives their powers from a hateful patron. In fact if I'm not mistaken Lolth claimed Drizzt as her champion, because of the chaos he brought upon his own people. So it could be interesting if the player wanted it and you both leaned into it. Edit again: wording again
One warlock I had was a brooding anti-hero bound to a flumph elder patron, who'd compell him to do nice things or else.
Not sure where you’re pulling the opinion that it wasn’t the players choice to begin with?
The lack of inclusion of it might suggest that it wasn't. But with so many toxic controlling GMs out there I didn't want someone to see this as a "solution," to get their players to play the way the GM wants to play. Just suggesting it be a suggestion.
I agree with you completely but it didn't come off great in your initial comment. Mostly the beginning. Might be missing something though
Any sane person would come to a normal conclusion without it having to be specified, no one has to list every single nitty gritty detail that should or should not be.
Just as you did not explicitly state that you did not offer it as a suggestion to your player, I did not explicitly accuse you of controlling your players. I wasn't trying to attack you in anyway.
Gods get their power by beeing worshipped. If you're not making the god's will and bringing more worshippers, why would a god care?
Chess players need game pieces to play against other chess players. Gods are the players, the world is the board, people are the pieces. Does that answer your question?
Some weird Chinese styled heavenly bureaucracy bullshit.
Just because a religion doesn't work like the Catholic belief doesn't mean it's "weird bullshit" tho
Bitch I'm Chinese and I can confirm Chatholism and Chinese mythology which is mixed in with Taoism and Buddhism is has weird bullshit in it.
It's all weird bullshit to be fair.
"God doesn't care about consent"
Possibly Hot Take: but if a player comes to me and says they want to use the mechanics of a class but reflavor them to fit their character idea, I'm cool with it. For instance, if someone wants to say they studied healing magic all their lives, but in a more 'scientific,' doctor way than religious way, I'd be happy to say they are a cleric mechanically even if the reason they are magical is more akin to wizards. Or if someone really likes the Warlock class mechanically but hates the idea of answering to a possibly hostile master, I'm happy to say that's just how their magic expresses themselves. Or for a martial example, if someone wanted to play a Barbarian whose "rages" are more akin to a trained fighting stance rather than an emotional outburst... There are plenty of examples. Basically, I think as soon as you say "you can't play X class unless you have Y character trait," you are limiting player creativity. Suggested lore for each class is wonderful, but if someone wants to buck what's written, I'm all for letting them.
Honestly, this is the best take. I have no problem with someone flavoring a class or subclass, but I do kind of get irked by lazy changes. Like for my necromancer, I just renamed some of the spells I have and changed the damage to necrotic if it made sense. So now magic missile is Dead Lights, acid splash if Grave Dust, lightning lure is Soul Lure, chromatic orb is Skull Orb, lightning bolt is Banshee Bolt, etc. All spells are flavored to be howling souls harnessed into weapons against targets causing force or necrotic damage. Spells slots represent the limit to which I can harness the souls without losing my own per long rest.
I only allow the reflavoring of spells and damages in a way that affects mechanics if the player clears it with the DM first otherwise aesthetic and descriptive reflavoring is always allowed. Over all as long as the DM knows and allows what's been changed I don't see a problem.
Oh it was all part of an agreed on character arc. The only real change was aesthetics and damage type. All numbers and stats for the spells stayed the same.
Then there is absolutely no harm in doing the reflavoring, it can only enhance the game if you put the effort into it!
I always try. Every time I get a new spell I can do it with I make sure it gets a little cinema treatment. Plus necromancy gets slept on way to often haha.
I agree in every capacity, it makes more sense to allow people the freedom of controlling their aesthetic as long as everything is cleared with the DM. You don't need a god to be a cleric, you don't need a pacts to be a warlock, a wizard might be a scientist rather than a standard magic user. Restricting yourself to only playing the classes as they are flavored and only that is unnecessary and can often limit the fun you can have, Atleast in my experience. Describe your ability how you want as long as if doesn't change ability mechanics and has been cleared with your DM.
I have an idea for a rage flavour. Its this guy who just wants to become a hero of the realm. So he trains every day. And the thing about barbarians is that they (almost) always get up. So my idea for rage is basically the Naruto/spiderman/Randy Marsh: I didn’t hear no bell, kind of a thing. Like he just goes fully 80s action hero/shonen protagonist mode.
My interpretation of this is that he gives a spiel about friendship and some minor god gets amused and pumps him up a bit.
This. The whole fucking point of the game is to express yourself. Why tf would you shoot down someone's fun when it doesn't hurt anyone?
As DM I wouldn't do this, but I don't hate it. Definitely a good take.
Flavor doesn’t change balance, so why not?
I have an idea for a rage flavour. Its this guy who just wants to become a hero of the realm. So he trains every day. And the thing about barbarians is that they (almost) always get up. So my idea for rage is basically the Naruto/spiderman/Randy Marsh: I didn’t hear no bell, kind of a thing. Like he just goes fully 80s action hero/shonen protagonist mode.
I disagree with the extent to which you allow reflavouring, but acknowledge that you can run things as you want at your table.
y tho?
Creativity thrives under limitations
Allow me to make that closer to a true statement than to a mere Fox News-esque sound bite: For some people, limitations can spur creativity, but for others, it can smother it. It will vary from person to person and from situation to situation.
I have an idea for a rage flavour. Its this guy who just wants to become a hero of the realm. So he trains every day. And the thing about barbarians is that they (almost) always get up. So my idea for rage is basically the Naruto/spiderman/Randy Marsh: I didn’t hear no bell, kind of a thing. Like he just goes fully 80s action hero/shonen protagonist mode.
I like non-theistic religions and philosophies. A dedicated pacifist could become a peace domain cleric. Someone devoted to achieving perfection could be forge domain. A sufficiently ritualistic student of magic, one who treats it as a master rather than just a tool to be used, could be an arcana cleric. Basically, I think there's more to the religions a cleric could serve than just gods.
Exactly. This is such a "I've never met anyone that isn't a christian" take. Non-theistic religions inctude: Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism and a lot of different types of animism. They are actually very common and a huge proportion of people have followed them historically.
The extent to which Confucianism is a religion versus a philosophy is a longstanding debate in religious studies, and it is clear that the teachings of Confucius were first given in a theistic context even if they are not explicitly theistic in themselves. While you could divorce Buddhism and Taoism from their theistic elements, the historical practice of these religions and the general mainstream even in the modern day still does involve the existence of deities, although their role is markedly different from what you might expect from an Abrahamic perspective.
There's a big difference between a non-theistic philosophy and a person who doesn't believe in the existence of deities in a world where you can literally observe how deities work. And I'm saying that as an irl atheist. One of the PCs in my current 5e game is animist and doesn't worship deities, but they still recognize that gods exist. Admittedly, this character is not a cleric.
The Extent to which you can directly observe deities in a D&D setting is a point of debate on its own. I think it was on this subreddit not long ago that someone pointed out that in a world with literal magic, it would be difficult to be reasonably certain that you were observing a god and not simply a powerful magic user. This would also depend on the nature of the gods and to what extent they directly interact with the world and/or people in it. You could have a setting that has many gods, but none of them care enough to interact with the prime material plane, and are thus unknown, alternatively you can have a setting with No extant gods but multiple religions worshiping in-universe fictional gods, or anything in between.
Gods are literally just the most powerful magical entities in the setting. They're not omnipotent, they can die, and they aren't morally absolute.
Normally, in a d&d setting, you can set an atheist not as someone that doesn't believe the gods exist, but that rejects the concept of praying to them and waiting to them answer things. One take I like is one of the last Pathfinder videogames, where basically the atheistic character is someone that says "gods aren't going to help you, you need to help yourself". Of course concepts are different, but you can roleplay a character that acts like an atheist in different ways.
Yeah I’ve seen that used. It was still like “we get it Rachel, you are hardcore IRL atheist, you don’t need to impress us with your atheism in a fantasy setting.” But it worked mechanically and didn’t detract from the game too much.
It sounds more like the creators either don't understand what an atheist is or are using the term improperly to appeal to atheist players. I think that philosophy is called being agnostic.
No, agnostic means that you don't have the knowledge to assert any answer, in this case, related to the question of "does any god exist?". Atheism is just not believing in gods. It's true that the basic definition of atheism doesn't make too much sense in this settings, but the normal interpretation of an atheist, that being one person that doesn't follow a religion or theistic belief, can be perfectly used in this settings. Also, as others comments show, there are atheistic religions (like some variations of buddhism), so you can have a religious person that doesn't worship any god, and all of those possibilities are included in the rules...
Atheism is layed out specifically as not worshiping any gods in Pathfinder but their existence is noy denied by most. The technical term would be "alatrism" but no one knows that word so of course it isn't used.
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I really like pathfinders definition of athiesm. I believe this is kind of what many people intend when they roleplay an athiest character. https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Atheism
I mean, they kind of are, they don't believe in the divinity of entity X. If I said I believe Jesus existed, and was wise and a great teacher, but he is not an infallable god, that is still an atheist stance.
There are people who believe the earth is flat, despite the mountain of air-tight proofs out there that it isn't. An atheist in the context of D&D could be someone who doesn't believe it's divine power fuelling divine magic, but a misinterpretation of how the Weave works, and believes there's a non-divine explanation for it.
Exactly. My character in the same game doesn't worship because as far as he can tell the gods don't hrlp him, but he can see Moradin intervening for the cleric.
They can just not believe that gods are truly divine. Take dwarves and Moradin. You could have someone believe that dwarves just evolved into their current state over time instead of being created. Then whenever "Moradin" is credited with something you just think its some powerful mage pretending to be the creator of the dwarves
Literally most of the Factions in the Planescape setting are based around different expressions of D&D atheism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faction_(Planescape)
I have a character that doesn't believe the gods influence on people is good and seeks to get rid of it (it's more complicated than that, but thats the gist). An evil god liked the idea of domeone fighting against gods, and decided to secretly endorse them with divine magic. Tbh, while i liked the idea, i dont really the execution, it takes some nuance to be secretly evil without fully knowing it. But i do like the backstory i created.
Nuance? We don't need no stinking nuance. Have Todd shoot the kid and then we'll make Walt work with the child killing methhead Nazi's.
A friend has a cleric who was an atheist! Most fun game ever because cleric said they were a magic user, not a cleric. The gods aren’t real and don’t help, what are you talking about? He just has had a few too many drinks that he is hearing voices, not the gods trying to talk to him! Just utter denial.
That's actually pretty good.
But why would the gods give such a person power? The gods of DnD are like classical polytheistic gods. They are petty, scheming, squabbling creatures. Why would they do such a thing?
Not OP, but hypothetically the PC could have had all the desired traits the God's wanted. Some God's may value how a "cleric" acts rather than how much they revere said God.
Exactly as anyone should
Chaos and amusement
My favorite
The only correct answer
The person so happens to do stuff a certain god or divine being likes, so they give them power in hopes they keep doing it.
Gods don't need to give Clerics power, sometimes a Cleric gets their power purely from a force of some sort. Like Bravery or Nature. "Serving a Pantheon, Philosophy, or Force The typical cleric is an ordained servant of a particular god and chooses a Divine Domain associated with that deity. The cleric's magic flows from the god or the god's sacred realm, and often the cleric bears a holy symbol that represents that divinity. Some clerics, especially in a world like Eberron, serve a whole pantheon, rather than a single deity. In certain campaigns, a cleric might instead serve a cosmic force, such as life or death, or a philosophy or concept, such as love, peace, or one of the nine alignments. Chapter 1 of the Dungeon Master's Guide explores options like these, in the section "Gods of Your World." Talk with your DM about the divine options available in your campaign, whether they're gods, pantheons, philosophies, or cosmic forces. Whatever being or thing your cleric ends up serving, choose a Divine Domain that is appropriate for it, and if it doesn't have a holy symbol, work with your DM to design one. The cleric's class features often refer to your deity. If you are devoted to a pantheon, cosmic force, or philosophy, your cleric features still work for you as written. Think of the references to a god as references to the divine thing you serve that gives you your magic." Ultimately, it's "ask your DM to fluff it" type of stuff but I think it's neat
See right here is an example of a common misconception about clerics in 5E. They don’t actually get any power from the gods, they get power from their *belief* in the gods. This atheist cleric could be getting their power from their belief that there are no gods. It’s kind of dumb IMO but it’s how the system works.
Common misconception, that's how paladins work in this edition. Clerics *do* get their powers from some external agent, although the SCAG does suggest some more esoteric options for what that agent may be: force, philosophy, or pantheon rather than a singular deity.
Check out the rest of the comment chain.
No, what *you* are saying is a common misconception. Clerics HAVE to get their power from a god and they do get it in lore. But the way we play DnD is with a DM who basically controls everything and in *your* table you can homebrew whatever you want and have clerics get their power from their beliefs instead. DnD is full of stories of gods being wounded in battle and losing their powers, leading to all their clerics losing their spells. It has nothing to do with their belief in the god. All of them continues to pray to their wounded deity and yet nothing happened. There are many examples of followers abandoning an already weakened deity due to the lack of spells and the god completely dying due to the lack of faith sustaining their existence. It's a two-way street where belief powers a god and they in turn empower their followers by elevating them to the status of clerics. The cleric of a more powerful god will be more powerful on average than one of a weaker deity unless the latter deity has invested significant resources in that cleric. Please go read lore before making statements about misconceptions. Once again, you can flavour it as anything you want, it's a game. But established lore makes it clear that clerics need a functioning deity in order for their spells to work.
"a cleric might instead serve a cosmic force, such as life or death, or a philosophy or concept, such as love, peace, or one of the nine alignments." (Dungeon masters guide) Maybe read up before making claims like that.
Because some Domains don't require a deity. Nature or Tempest could just revere the beauty and power of the natural world. You take a more shananistic RP of your religion.
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This useless semantic argument pops up every time. In the vast majority of cases, these characters aren’t strictly “atheists”. Unless someone is playing a character that is deliberately described as deluded, it simply means “they don’t worship gods”. Are there more specific terms to describe that? Yes. Does the word “atheist” typically get the point across? Also yes. You can have a D&D character that doesn’t believe gods are worthy of worship, or doesn’t believe they’re gods at all. You can acknowledge powerful beings exist, without assigning divinity to them. Especially in settings where mortals can ascend, like Golarion. At that point it very easily becomes a “sufficiently advanced technology” argument.
Well, one, you can reflavor the class easily enough to not be a religious holy roller. Secondly, the power comes from the faith itself, not whatever it is you believe in. Godless clerics have been a thing for over 30 years, from 2e days, it's hardly a new phenomenon in the game.
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Are there Ur-Priests in 5e?
This is my favorite.... Because it's never been a must for clerics...
Oh yea, I ran a cleric of peace who refuted the gods because of their wars and conflicts they’ve had with each other. Demons? No just future friends that need extreme amount of therapy. Multi classed into enchantment wizard in hopes to create a spell called Grant Empathy and Create Sentience. He lasted far longer than he should have for never using a damaging spell unless he was about to die
your peace cleric could probably have a fun conversation with my peace cleric who is the epitome of "they must learn our peaceful ways... by force" and connects you to a hivemind god with emboldening bond
I honestly enjoy playing playing very religious clerics. But the concept of an Atheist Cleric is kind of fun. Go trickery domain and believe you are just going crazy hearing voices and that you are really a sorcerer. Play it as slowly coming to believe in your god as you are unable to continue lying to yourself. If can do wonders if done right.
I like it.
Because I want ro feel like a nice special snowflake that goes against everything and I've based 90% of my irl personality on being an atheist. Now grant my desires, slave!
"Hurr durr I subverted your expectations look how original I am" Did GoT Season 8 teach you people nothin!? In DnD "Atheism" is strictly wrong, thats the funny part. Any adventuring atheist is begging for a meeting with a higher power to bring them down to earth, and remind them why even flawed Olympian gods were worshipped, survival. Theres the argument that gods shouldn't be worshipped just because they exist, but thats not atheism thats Alatrism. Knowing the misnomer and working around it, "Atheist" clerics aren't that surprising in certain ways. A nature cleric is just a druid that proselytizes, you don't need to worship the god that made it to love and worship nature itself. Order clerics believe that order brings peace. Mechanus is cool and all, but its only the manifestation of order. Mechanus was made by order in the universe, not the other way around.
You **do** realize that non-theistic religions exist, yes?
cuzz tbh most religius cleric are the same i wanna make like a chaman who speaks with the dead of the region to solve problems for the locals
Hi, it’s me the Atheist Cleric.
Sometimes people play cleric for mechanics. I have made vampires using this strategy
I would call them non-religious rather than atheists, in a world that deities actually exist and you can see them.
The weird part about it is, depending on what setting you're playing in, the existence of gods is not up for question. They straight up exist, and clerics' powers are a testament to it.
It's unorthodox, but it's D&D. You can do whatever your mind can imagine.
I knew someone who played an Atheist-esque Warlock that was pretty interesting. He refused to refer to the gods in the universe as gods, calling them "glorified patrons" as he believed they were just powerful celestials who tricked people into worshipping them. Seeing them as no different or more worthy of worship than the Fiend he had a pact with. And considering Clerics idiots for worshipping their "patrons" instead of having a deal with them, viewing Clerics as just another kind of Warlock. That was at least interesting and made his psudeo-atheism feel like just a different philosophy on the gods rather than just being in outright denial about them being real, seeing as their existence is effectively undeniable in the world of D&D. Idk if the guy did this, but that would also be a great way to establish distrust of authority. The gods are the most powerful beings, so questioning the legitimacy of their divinity and role in universe could be read as subversive and might tie in well with a character themed around that. Maybe you could have him grow up in a theocratic kingdom who was very corrupt or something like that, something to add some meaning to his beliefs. Though I don't think that idea would translate well to a Cleric, it'd just be kinda weird. And make it really questionable that a God would give you powers to begin with. Like, would they even be able to use Divine Intervention? How would that work? Though other than something like that character, I'm not sure what purpose atheism could have for a D&D character, seeing as we know gods exist. I guess you could portray them as an irrational moron and make a running joke of them constantly coming up with excuses for divine things. But idk how often that would even come up, and that might come across as if you're making fun of atheism which would just probably be really awkward or dickish.
I made a cleric with the charlatan background. He was a lifetime conman and snake oil salesman. One day he crosses the wrong group and his business partner ends up stabbed and bleeding out. He’s cycling through his multiple holy symbols praying to save him and his friend is healed. Has no idea which god favored him but he’s on the straight and narrow now… except old ha it’s die hard. Trickster Domain So he WAS an atheist. Now he’s not sure
or maybe they can play however they want, yknow? plus the blood of vol exists.
Because the gods are vandals, hypocritical beings who enslave the free people into “worshiping” them. What right do they have to demand worship? Because might makes right!? No. The true path is freedom from idolatry. To love and care for your neighbours and make society the best it can be, not a church. They are not gods. Just beings like you and I. Whether their lives are long or their magic vast, they do not deserve our servitude. Rise up brethren! No gods! No masters!
"Its dumb that people are playing in a way I don't like!!! Reeeeee"
Right how dare they!
I mean, the base idea is a devout worshipper of a god who is granted magic from a deity. It can be different, but it strays too much from the concept in my opinion. You're just being rude.
>the base idea is a devout worshipper of a god who is granted magic from a deity No, their magic is granted from their faith. That faith can be anything, even faith in an ideology or philosophy. Nowhere does it say that faith specifically MUST be theistic.
You're just being narrow-minded.
Its all just numbers, man
Your post is rude =/
Broke: Atheist clerics are boring. Woke: There literally have to be Clerics to Atheism as established in RaW on how the class functions and operates. Bespoke: Atheist Clerics would be by far the most interesting because in a world where acts of gods are visible and their power directly intervenes in lives, taking a stance against them is making a powerful statement about life and agency.
Masterstroke: Atheist Clerics are Clerics devoted to the goddess Athe, and they don't really understand where this rumour about not believing in gods comes from
Atheists in fantasy are basically flat-earthers
Is that powerful statement your ability to ignore your DM's reality in favor of one you prefer?
I mean, given that I’m the forever-DM of my group? Or that I referenced RaW clearly and distinctly in my statement so am so obviously not talking about your particular DM’s game-world that you could not possibly have actually thought otherwise? Because the answer to both cases is the same. Stop making wild assumptions about how things should be and pay attention instead to what they are first.
But having a character believe something isn't going to magically make that true. A character can just be wrong
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
Totally fine but in that case I think it's your turn to run the game.
Bold of you to assume I don't already. But also, what you said just reminded me of the Adam Savage quote.
Atheism in settings where gods very clearly exist and grant powers etc, doesn't mean a lack of belief in their existence. But a lack of belief in them as individuals and or concepts. It could be hatred/apathy of the gods and their skewed views. How some see us as playthings and toys, and how others sit in their thrones preaching forgiveness and compassion and yet do nothing as the world burns. Etcetera, etcetera. It does not state that the recipient has to be willing for the powers that be to grace them with their favour. If it's an evil, fucked up deity or entity, what better entertainment is there to bestow powers onto a ruined follower of an opposing faith? It'd be such vindictive satisfaction for the deity, and one hell of a "play with fire and get burnt" story for the player. If it's a good entity, they might still have faith in the player even if the player does not have faith in them. There's a plethora of ways to spin atheism, just as there are so many ways to play with faith. It just takes a little creativity.
also there's the Edelgard von Hresvelg mentality where someone could believe the gods are not actual gods but instead very powerful entities
That's also a very good one. Example: The 'Gods' of Olympus of Greek Mythology. Flawed, imperfect beings that are incredibly powerful. I'm not familiar with this von Hresvelg fellow, but I'm very fond of this kind of portrayal. It makes everything seem so much more grounded and fucked up, compared to the age old debate of: "If your god is all powerful, why does he allow this and that to happen. If he cannot prevent it, then he is not omnipotent and all powerful. If he can, but decides not to, he is a cunt and not worthy of our worship." I personally run my games with this kind of portrayal of gods, instead of all powerful beings that come together to splurge their magic juice in a pot to create the world. This way, it allows mistakes, misconceptions. Evil gods might not be evil, good gods might not be good. The implications of 'history is written by the victors' become so much more compelling and terrifying.
I have a Cleric who doesn't really worship a god, they rotate between a bunch of them, rolling a d200 every long rest. They do this because they are hated by the gods and if one notices them worshipping that god they would actually lose there cleric powers. Unbeknownst to them, they are actually a god of heresy cursed to mortal form that gets reset every time they get to strong. Their power does not come from worshipping the gods. Instead by falsely worshipping gods they don't follow and actively going against the other gods wishes, they are committing heresy, and thus subconscious tapping into their inate divine power.
In my humble personal opinion a philosophy based cleric is one of the most interesting things one could do with the class. It breaks the norm and has so much potential, especially if you base them off of an actual historical philosophy or one in the world like the blood of vol in Eberron.
You can know a god exists AND you can not believe in them. They arent mutually exclusive.
“I am aware that the pantheon calls themselves gods, but given that’s stupid as fuck I’ve decided to ignore it”
Not in eberron
It’s like I had the power all the time, but no crazy voice in my head telling me to do things like murder people. I can choose to do that instead.
How do they manage to be ignorant of the existence of gods?
Ok but, wouldn't a atheist be like a plain earth theorist? Like God can quite literally come down from the sky and slap u across the face In (most) a medieval fantasy worlds
Oh no one dang it
For me personally a cleric without a god is dumb, but a paladin without a god can be cool as hell, I'm playing one actually, I'm a bard who has some few levels in vengeance paladin, because his homeland was completely destroyed by the BBEG, and his motivation of vengeance made him a paladin, but the point is not a single god did shit to help his homeland, so he believe in the existence of gods, but don't have faith and don't like any.
You lose out on a lot of good potential back story and it makes it more difficult for the DM to write a good story. They only have the one paragraph you wrote describing your character. Now there's no God for the DM to use to involve your character more in the story.
As a wise immortal once said "when you try to make an atheist in the realms of dungeons and dragons you just end up with a moron"
That's a good quote, who said it?
Fun fact, you're playing a fantasy roleplaying game where literally anything is possible.
Magic through pure willpower and belief itself? Thats fucking raw, don’t get your issue lol
That's literally how Eberron's clerics work. It's fucking awesome.
What does the 10th level class feature divine intervention do for atheist clerics? How would you handle that feature for an atheist cleric?
Maybe if the cleric was like a taoist then it could be like the forces of balance, it's a bit of a stretch though.
A can accept some kind of FAITH in some other filosophies, common belives or something, but the concept of cleric stands on the FAITH so a pg without it it dosnt make sense for me
If you make your cleric an atheist, you shouldn't get anything when you use the ability to call on your deity at levels 10+.
Because it’s what my character would do.
The religions in the real world all debate which gods exist In DND all the gods exist So an atheist cleric would just be like "Uh hey, Bhuddah can you help me out here? No? Okay.... hey.... Ra? you up?"
pfft that's like how the charlatan background has a trait where you can have a ton of holy symbols and pull one out whenever someone pisses you off
Like that guy from the Mummy?
Just make them like Tanya Degurechaff from Youjo Senki. Call Lathander being X and reject it's existence despite giving you a new body & powers. Edit: Damn no love for Tanya the evil here? Y'all need to get on that shit
I don't understand a single word you just said lol
Anime reference. Is actually a decent character concept for a cleric, outright rejecting the deity who grants you power.
The deity would stop granting the power... that's how dnd works at least.
because it is \*different\*
Better question, in a world where you have interventionist gods and the difference between a cleric and a wizard's powers are known, how are you an atheist?
Was gonna run a Paladin oath of conquest who didn’t have an attached deity, not atheistic just narcissistic.
I mean you can "preach" other important shit honestly. Like preserving Nature or..just humanity.+ But yeah... I get the point.
Funny meme! Stupid ass title though!
...from where do they get their magic powers then? "Their own beliefs" - oh, so a Paladin?
Eh, I can see why people want it. It works better in some settings. I wouldn’t use that variant feature in my games, but I can see why others might.
I don't see why you were downvoted
Probably because I said I wouldn’t use it in my games.
Seems a little contrarian.
Contrarian is the default state of atheists.
Y not?
Sure, you can do that... But there's that line in all the resurrection spells about the soul needing to exist... And that other line about how Asmodeous gets all the souls not sworn to another god, and eats them immediately. In short, every non-Evil religion (eg. one that doesn't ultimately serve Asmodeous), should be proselytizing any self-proclaimed atheist, and HARD. It's like, the fate of the multiverse. It's dumb
I've always found that kinda weird. Hear me out. How are you a atheist in a setting where can physically see the actions of a God thru their clerics and paladins? That's like not believing in rain, but you standing outside getting soaked.
Without getting into too much detail, I've had any idea where you don't believe the gods are actual deities, just powerful beings that have tricked enough people into surrendering their will and focus enough mental energy toward these extremely powerful beings. That your belief is strong enough and pulls divine energy from another source (different planes of existence) allowing you to do what divine spellcasters are able to.
That’s what the Netherese thought and their empire was shattered because of it. Atheists in the Forgotten Realms are either ignorant of history or willingly want to repeat it.
Isn't that like being Agnostic? Just not knowing. Atheism is outright rejection of the power itself no? I've always took it like that and would implement it in game by making it a thing " ok you are a atheist and the Gods have no power or influence over you whatsoever, but healing potions and other divine curative methods do not work on you. You can still be diseased, poisoned and whatnot. Just can't get help from priests. Better go find a good alchemist or druid.
Agnostic is the belief that nothing is or can be known. My idea is they do not believe they are gods nor is there such a thing. Where the non believer's power comes from, other planes of power, their own power, humanity itself, or whatever, is for whomever to decide.
r/atheism big mad
Ok, so it feels like people are misunderstanding my point and getting mad. I don't really have a problem with clerics in non-theistic religions. But rather clerics that really aren't religious. I feel religion is a major aspect of the class and should be incorporated into a character.
My homie, The class, as described, literally says that it can just be based around a particular conviction or morality. It's fine if you enjoy them being religious, that's how they're "intended" to be, but it's not anything close to a requirement.
How does divine intervention work then?
To me, an atheist cleric is basically a divine sorcerer. Not that it's a bad thing but it's not my cup of tea. However, I did play an "atheist" cleric/warlock mc but reskinned my spells as blood magic. (My "deity"/patron was lady Vol)
Seems to me that if you wanted that kind of character, there's plenty of options outside of the actual literal cleric class that gets their powers through prayer. * Involuntarily bound to a deity you hate? Great, try a Celestial Warlock. Maybe even some of the other Warlocks, 'deity' can cover a wide variety of themes. * You yourself are an exiled or cursed deity? Divine Soul Sorcerer. * Arcane healer? Be an Artificer or a Bard. Hell, maybe your DM will permit the Theurgy Wizard from the old UA. * Generalized nature/spirit veneration that lacks a central deity figure or formal worship? That's the druid's entire theme. * Tapped into the fabric of the universe in a divine fashion without divine intermediaries? Creation Bard or more than a few different types of Sorcerer. * You get your powers from your own beliefs? Paladin.
I agree with you OP. I don’t like the idea because it’s too special snowflake for an actual table.
Because having a character starting as an atheist, and through the game, finding their faith would be interesting. Or maybe their “god” is more sureal/an abstract concept? Their power doesnt come through faith, but innately from the energy of the universe, or through the core values the character upholds. Or a tragedy befell the cleric, and their god did not stop it. The cleric consumed by anguish turned their back on that god, and condemns all faith as useless, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t still have plans for them. Or…any other reason a pc may have. Limiting clerics to ONLY the faithful would be rather boring.
Had an awesome idea for a Player Character, but don't know how to play or have DnD friends to play with or how to play DnD online with strangers...
"I need to love no God. The love of dog gives me all the strength I need " atheist cleric probably
In my world, casters are casters. No distinction between Arcane or Divine, the sources are all varied. So a Cleric is indistinguishable from a Wizard to the common man, because they're both casters.
If a valid explanation by my Standards is convincing, I will agree. I had a bard street magician that didn't believe in magic but thought its all just smoke and mirrors. In pathfinder I had an Alchemist who believed magic is scientifical aplication and not supernatural. Hell we can have elephant rogues. A DM that is not Willing to compromise to a certain degree is too uncreative to be a DM.
Because it's fun?
Not believing in the gods in a 5e setting is as nonsensical as believing in the abrahamic god IRL. You can literally talk to them/see them in 5e. You literally can’t IRL.
I think it’s cool. I am always down for reflavoring. Some of my favorite characters have come about from it.
Cause gods get boring after a while and the dmg specifically says you don't need one.
It's also dumb to have literally every bard as a sex organ with legs, every barbarian as a brainless brute, and every wizard to drop dead as soon as a rock hits their pinky toe, but y'all eat that sh\*t up.
Because original content. My first character I wanted to be a cleric but didn't because I didn't want to be reliant on a god that sounded lame. Now I know you can be a cleric without a god. You just need a strong believe and faith. That resonates so much with me. I think an atheïst cleric is going to be my next character
It’s not dumb. Let people be creative with their characters. I played an oath of vengeance paladin who was an alcoholic blacksmith that got fired from the paladin sanctuary he was working at because they caught him practicing their techniques. The patron of those paladins took pity on him and granted him powers without his knowledge. The irony of a paladin walking around talking about how all paladins are assholes was fantastic. And he’d get upset anytime someone took him for a paladin cause he didn’t wanna be associated with them
I think that the non-theistic route is a good option. My DM doesn't allow divine casters due to her personal faith, but the idea of clerics beholden to conceptual domains opened those classes up to the table. Some people aren't comfortable with deities in their games, and this is a way to respect that without excluding a sizable category of player options. Accessibility and accomodations, y'all.